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Possible subtle vandalism found in the article?

"The book also claims that the queen had children by the Earl of Leicester, Robert Cecil, 1st Earl of Salisbury, Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex, Mary Sidney and Elizabeth Leighton."

The last two names are female, so it's unlikely the queen had children by them, considering the lack of genetical engineering in the era... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.210.163 (talk) 09:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I assume one is a male, just has a female-sounding name. For example, George is a boy or girl's name; one of Nancy's Friends in the "Nancy Drew" series is a girl named George. Another example: Alex = Alexander, Alex = Alexandria (or Alexandra). I know an Alex who's female. Ethg242 (talk) 23:58, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

No, it's just that the comma after 'Leicester' should have been a colon. He's the alleged father. The others are all kids. Paul B (talk) 00:33, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

On the evidence

If "no evidence links Oxford to Shakespeare's works," then why do so many people believe he was the author? Why are most of the books and articles touting an alternative author about Oxford (and not others)? Why was a movie made about him? Why is he the most popular alternative candidate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.125.99 (talk • contribs)

No other candidate (including the realtor of S. upon Avon) have the necessary background for the italian job. Almost half of the works published as "by W.S." deal with Italy, with such an accuracy that locations can be traced to the doorway, even today. Oxenford was all over Italy, including, but not limited to italian womanfolk. No matter how much power and influence the british royalty expended to erase all trace leading of E. O., the italian job cannot be undone from the W.S. canon, even though the stratfordster never set foot outside Blighty. 82.131.210.163 (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

If no evidence exists that Oxford wrote the plays (and absolutely none does) the correct approach to validate the theory would be to find some. Instead, what Oxfordians have done is chain together a mountain of inference, supposition and deduction allied to a huge list of alleged similarities between Oxford,s life and the events portrayed in the plays as if they were autobiographical instead of works of imagination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alfa-16 (talk • contribs) 07:42, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Derby probably went to Italy too; Marlowe certainly went to the continent. For all we know, WS may have done too. There is no evidence whatever that the "stratfordster never set foot outside Blighty". Still, there's no special knowledge of Italy in the plays, however hard one tries to invent it. And "the British royalty" have no motivation whatever to deny Oxford's authorship of any plays. Paul B (talk) 19:29, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

"For all we know, WS may have done too" is a very weak argument. For all we know, Shakespeare from Stratford may have been to Denmark. He be an ancestor of Glenn Close. He may have been a lot of things. "There is no evidence whatever that the 'stratfordster never set foot outside Blighty'." The same bad argument. Very difficult to prove a negative statement. There is no evidence that Shakespeare from Stratford never visited Scotland. You could make millions of such statements. We have solid proof that Oxford visited Italy, was literate, and knew Italian. "Still, there's no special knowledge of Italy in the plays, however hard one tries to invent it." Wrong again. There is special, specific knowledge that is contemporaneous with the Italy at the time. Whoever wrote the plays had to have access to this first-hand knowledge in some way. "And 'the British royalty' have no motivation whatever to deny Oxford's authorship of any plays." This statement is an irrelevant non sequitur. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.2.40 (talk) 17:45, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a good question. Of course there's no evidence connecting any of the alternative candidates. There is no simple answer, but I think it's that he fulfils the emotional needs of alternative author theorists better than the others. There is some discussion of this in Shapiro and Gibson, but it's a neglected topic. Paul B (talk) 16:28, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

"Parallels with the plays"-long and ludicrous

Just a question for right now - what is this long section on "parallels with the plays" doing in an encyclopedia article? It is full of such utterly ludicrous passages as on "As You Like It":"One of the sights Oxford may have taken in on his 1575–76 Christmas season visit to Siena, Italy was its cathedral, whose artwork includes a mosaic of the Seven Ages of Man." Maybe Oxford went to the cathedral and maybe he looked at a mosaic and maybe this is where he got an idea for a speech in a play? It actually shocks me to see such obvious speculation in a supposed neutral source of information ( maybe I am easily shocked). That whole long passage is just a lot of speculative rubbish it seems to me, it should all be deleted and just two or three of the plays such as Hamlet and Love's Labours Lost which "Oxfordians" believe demonstrate their case best discussed. I am very new here and have no intention of trying to delete anything at the moment but just wanted to say that as a pair of fresh eyes coming to this article that passage on "parallels with the plays" is way too long, not neutral at all, and full of quite laughable speculation.Smeat75 (talk) 03:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

True, but in case you are not aware, this topic has been very contentious with sustained efforts by enthusiasists to use Misplaced Pages to explain the TRUTH regarding the issue, and was the subject of an arbitration case. The main article is Shakespeare authorship question (which, due to heroic efforts by its principal authors, is a featured article), and that SAQ article is good. There are some references in the section you mention, and some of those point to secondary sources that describe the claims in the article, so it might be reasonable that the Oxfordian case is presented. It can be difficult knowing how best to do that in a due manner. Johnuniq (talk) 03:30, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

That section was once a stand-alone article, which by consensus was merged here. The most devoted Oxfordian editor tends to resist the removal of even the most ridiculous arguments like the seven ages one you mention. Of course the "Seven Ages" was almost as familiar a concept as the four seasons, and if you look at the Siena images they are completely different from Shakespeare's (no lover, no soldier for example). Paul B (talk) 16:48, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

So there are users of Misplaced Pages who would like to deny every single trace of Edward de Vere in Shakespeare´s work or even remove all the traces. This is a futile effort. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 16:14, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Shakespeare's seven ages speech derives primarily from Zodiacus Vitae, a school text. The argument connecting it to the Siena designs is frankly desperate. This supposed effort is not futile, since it is supported by almost all serious Shakespeare scholars. But of course this page is for discussion of the theory, which means that the arguments should be obviously be included. Nevertheless, the page should be coherent - not a rag-bag collection of any old idea that anyone ever had, thrown together. The case is not well supported when it is full of transparent misrepresentations of the facts. Paul B (talk) 16:27, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

One unintended consequence of having every fanciful connection reproduced here, given that Misplaced Pages is the 'goto' source for online argument, is that they get reproduced elsewhere. For example, the imdb board for the film was recently flooded by a poster who reproduced each tiny quoted similarity as a separate thread in the hope that serious argument would be deleted by the board's housekeeping routines. On the whole, if nonsense cannot be labelled as 'fanciful speculation' it should be omitted from an 'encyclopaedic' reference work. Readers who alight on this page are not aware that it is a ghetto for arguments that have proved unacceptable when submitted to the arbitration process elsewhere and unless there is a better warning that the page contains widely discredited argument and the unacceptable idea that Shakespeare's plays are code biography rather than works of imagination, I think the whole page should be removed.Alfa-16 (talk) 11:16, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Improvements

I feel the article has been vastly improved with just a few changes. Still needs works in the body, but the introduction is looking very good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.115.210 (talk) 00:07, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

You can improve the article if you add useful, content rather than assertions. Paul B (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

And preface the section by explaining that however similar the comparisons may seem, over the entire corpus of 37 plays, they do little to support the overall case of Oxford's authorship given that it would be relatively easy to come up with a similar list of 'similarities' to any other Elizabethan or Jacobean nobleman, or even members of the contemporary middle classes. It should at least acknowledge that these similarities are not seen to contribute anything to the argument outside the dedicated inner circle of Oxfordian zealots. Alfa-16 (talk) 11:24, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Recent vandalism has been deleted. Brilliant exposition restored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.12.126 (talk) 01:39, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

If you want a change that is retained in the article it will be necessary to understand some of the very reasonable procedures used at Misplaced Pages. See WP:5P for an overview, but the critical points for the attempted changes are found in WP:NPOV. Text like "convincingly demonstrates" must be attributed as someone's opinion, and the someone must be a recognized authority on the subject. Likewise "but this is hardly definitive as to their composition" and "This is a reasonable conclusion in light of recent scholarship" are the opinions of an editor: good stuff on a blog but not usable here. There are several other problems with the attempted changes. If there is a question about how to implement an improvement, please add a new section and ask. Also, you can try WP:HELPDESK.

Continuing the current line of repeating the changes and calling their reversion vandalism is just going to get the article protected so you cannot change it. Johnuniq (talk) 02:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Minerva Britanna

The article states "Edward de Vere was known to Peacham, since in 1612 his Minerva Britanna anagramed Vere's name on the frontispiece, denoting him as the Minerva (or Mind) of the Age." Strangely this very claim was removed from the main article by our esteemed colleague Smatprt, presumably because he did not think it helped make the case, and perhaps because the wording there drew attention to the spuriousness of the claim itself (The wording was, a device from Henry Peacham's Minerva Britanna (1612) depicting a hand appearing from behind a curtain and writing the Latin motto MENTE VIDEBOR ("By the mind I shall be seen") was first used to support Bacon's candidacy, but is seen by Oxfordians as a clue to Oxford's hidden authorship. By interpreting the final full stop as the beginning of an "I", the phrase becomes an anagram of TIBI NOM. DE VERE ("Thy Name is De Vere"). Paul B (talk) 14:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

This piece of analysis by Mark Anderson has been comprehensively discredited. There is no indication in the 'device' that it was intended to have an additional letter 'I'. Indeed the hand has already written an 'I' and the new letter it appears to be adding is completely different. There is space for at least four more letters on the empty part of the scoll. There is no latin word 'videbori' in any case. and TIBI NOM DE VERE is an incorrect use of the indicative pronoun. Proponents ignore the fact that Minerva is female and a Goddess and if you want to find a powerful, goddess-like female to associate with 'Britannia' you do not have to look very far at the Elizabethan court. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alfa-16 (talk • contribs) 07:42, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Oxford´s travel and his stay in Italy

Thanks to user 67.142.235.68 who removed this unbelievable nonsense concerning Oxford´s travel‎ to Italy and his stay there for almost one year. Without any justification someone tried to minimize the significance of Oxford´s stay in this beautiful and culturally important country and of the experience he gathered there for the authorship question. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 10:30, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Your paragraph is almost a copendium of non sequiturs. He gathered no experience for the "authorship question". That sentence is nonsensical. If you mean the experience he gathered has been used by proponents of Oxford in debates about the "authorship question", then that's true of course. It's also valid to criticise that so-called evidence. Though unsourced, many of those criticisms are entirely valid and are often made. The fact that Italy is "beautiful and culturally important" is preposterously irrelevant. No-one said it isn't. So's China. And of course Oxford was the only "candidate" who went to Italy. Paul B (talk) 12:12, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I am prepared to discuss with you, Paul B. First of all, you obviously misunderstood my second sentence. I was not saying: "He gathered experience for the authorship question". Instead of this, I was saying: "Someone tried to minimize the significance of Oxford´s stay in Italy and of the experience he gathered there for the authorship question. This is different. As everybody knows, WS of Stratford never visited Italy, and this fact is also significant for the pending solution of the authorship question. Those deleted unsourced criticisms were simply a guess-work without any substance. Apropos, the true author of the Shakespeare canon was an artist and was not obliged to be 100 p.c. exact in geography. However, it can be e.g. said that Bohemia was a powerful country in the Middle Ages and had in fact at a certain time even access to the Adriatic See. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 19:20, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Everbody does not know that WS of Stratford never visited Italy. We have no evidence for what he was doing for several years from the mid 1580s to 1592, so he might have done. But it makes no difference if he did or didn't. The stuff about Oxford in Italy is simply "guesswork without any substance". It is factually true that Shakespeare does not describe any distinctive Italian flora. It is also true that he describes a coast in Bohemia (copying from his source), which someone who had visited the area should know is wrong, and he makes other mistakes about the geography of Italy (as well as other places). But then you argue that he does not have to be "100% accurate" anyway, so the whole Oxfordian argument that you have just propounded goes out of the window! Bohemia, BTW, is a specific region. It never had a coast. The fact that the person who ruled it at one time also ruled other territories that did have a coast does not mean that Bohemia did or ever did. In any case this is utterly irrelevant, since visiting Italy in the 16th century does not give you special access to information about Medieval Bohemia and the whole coast-of-Bohemia thing is copied from Thomas Lodge's Rosalynd. Paul B (talk) 20:24, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Oops, brainstorm there - I meant Greene's Pandosto of course, not Lodge's Rosalynd. Wrong play. Paul B (talk) 21:15, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Out of the window goes nothing. You seem to be very keen to find some single argument. In any case, we have very little evidence what WS of Stratford did at any time, except e.g. that we know he was a merchant and travelled between Stratford and London. His "seven lost years", this is very special. And then out of a sudden he is the utmost poet, not a crow (Green). Where did he write the plays and sonnets? Where were his numerous books? Where are his original manuscripts? Where is his school attendance? How is it possible that his son-in-law did not mention him as a poet? How is it possible that the First Folio was initiated by sort of relatives of the Earl of Oxford? And ever heard of the Fourth T? Etc. Good night anyway for today. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 20:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

You are shifting your arguments again. He wasn't the utmost poet at all in 1592. Have you read his early works? They are pretty crude, and obviously imitate earlier literature: Greene, Peele, Marlowe et al. Where did he write them? Who cares? That's a silly question, All you need is a pen, paper, a literary tradition, imagination and motivation. Where you dip your ink is the least important issue. As for his books - where are Marlowe's books, or Greene's books, or Kyd's books, or Lodge's, or Peele's, or Nashe's? Can you identify any copies of books owned by them? Why would you expect to be able to do so? There is is no evidence whatever that the First Folio was initiated by "sort of relatives" (sort of relatives?) of Oxford. It was initiated by Shakespeare's colleagues, Heminges and Condell, and was patronised by aristocrats. Aristocrats were all "sort-of" relatives of one another. They tended to inter-marry you know. Heminges and Condell have a direct, documrnted relationship with Shakespeare, not Oxford. They are listed as sharer-members of his company and they are even mentioned in his will. It doesn't get clearer than that. Paul B (talk) 23:34, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

You missed the point, Paul B. Philip Herbert, 4th Earl of Pembroke (10th Creation), was son-in-law of Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. His wife was Lady Susan de Vere (26 May 1587–1628/29), daughter of Edward de Vere. In 1623, Philip Herbert, the then 1st Earl of Montgomery, and his elder brother, William Herbert, 3rd Earl of Pembroke (10th Creation), were, as it is well known, sponsors of the printing of the First Folio of the plays attributed until now to William Shakespeare of Stratford. For lack of evidence, their role in this important affair is utterly unclear, but there is the possibility that the brethren even possessed the original manuscripts of the plays. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 20:35, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Your missing the point. This page is for discussing how to improve the article so that it best reflects the assessment of the most respected academic sources on th esubject. These sources certainly would nto use phrases such as "attributed until now to William Shakespeare of Stratford". A preference for such language suggests that you are hear to advance a fringe theory and not to reflect mainstream scholarship.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:35, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "fringe theory", Peter cohen? Does this expression and the treatment of any theory as "fringe" belong to the 21st century? I can´t believe it. We are free men, we have free opinions. I don´t know what "mainstream scholarship" is. Do you want to exclude me from a talk page of Misplaced Pages, this world-wide medium? --Zbrnajsem (talk) 06:17, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy on fringe theories is very well established. It is the same reason that creationists cannot write on the Age of the Earth page that while the planet has been thought up to now to be billions of years old, this position is crumbling in the light of new evidence. It's the reason that someone who thinks John F. Kennedy faked his own death cannot alter the lead to say that he allegedly died on November 22, 1963. Even if the Earl of Oxford really did write these plays and poems, Misplaced Pages policy is to faithfully report the overwhelming scholarly consensus that he didn't; remember, "if available in Galileo's time, would have reported the view that the sun goes round the earth as a fact, and Galileo's view would have been rejected as 'original research'." - Cal Engime (talk) 21:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Bold, Revert, Discuss

Cengime, your bold revisions have destroyed a page of careful consensus that was reached by discussions over 10 years. A major part of the consensus was that the "in-your-face" anti-Oxfordian rhetoric was left for the SAQ main page, and that this page was focused on the Oxfordian claims. I have therefore reverted all of your massive re-editing over the past few days and would be happy to enter into a cycle of consensus-based editing.Jdkag (talk) 00:50, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Where was that consensus reached? I searched the archives of the talk pages of both articles for discussions you participated in, but only found you seemingly arguing that Oxfordian arguments should be uncritically repeated on that page as well. ("You prefer to exploit this page to disparage the people who have held such beliefs, rather than allowing this page to be a succinct summary of their arguments." - Talk:SAQ archive 26) The reason given for adding the NPOV tag to this article was that it treats Oxfordianism too much like an equally credible position (in violation of policy against giving an inflated picture of the notability or academic acceptance of fringe theories), and I agree. - Cal Engime (talk) 02:00, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

There is no "page of careful consensus". It has long been agreed that this page is an utter mess that violates almost all relevant Misplaced Pages policies. Of course this article should concentrate in detail on Oxfordian arguments, but it also should include mainstream rebuttals. I have long thought that the history section should go at the top, rather than be stuck at the end. Many of the "arguments" presented here are very distorted - some passages were and are downright erroneous. Others are pointless (e.g. the long Chapman quotation which has nothing to do with authorship as such). Paul B (talk) 14:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

As more than a full day has passed with no defence of the reason given for the revert or further comments opposed to the revisions, I have decided to reinstate the edits and resume work on the article. For now, I'm mainly interested in trimming down or eliminating the "Parallels" sections. This article doesn't need a list of supposed evidence that long and detailed any more than Baconian theory needs a list of Bacon ciphers as long as the rest of the article or Squaring the circle needs a long explication of "proofs" of claimed methods for squaring the circle; maybe three to five specific examples should be used to illustrate the general tenor of Oxfordian arguments, but describing them in minute detail at greater length than that gives them undue weight, makes a mockery of guidelines on article size, and serves only to make this page a soapbox for its subject. - Cal Engime (talk) 13:10, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I too was waiting for a day before reminding the editors who invoked BRD that it stands for "Bold, Revert, Discuss". There is no point in invoking this if you have no intention of participating in the D part. It's not a magic incantation to ward off all edits you don't like. Also, you have to discuss the way we should present content, not use the talk page to "prove" the Oxfordian position. Paul B (talk) 14:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi boys! How y'all been? I've been on a bit of a wiki-holiday, but I'm slowly getting back into the saddle again. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:58, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Mostly quiet on the Oxfordshire front until this sudden flurry of skirmishes and new summer campigning. How are things in the real world? Paul B (talk) 21:53, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

What real world? You mean the world where politicians say they believe in balanced budgets but not in raising taxes? Sometimes I wonder what the definition of reality is.

I'm glad to see this article is finally receiving some sustained and systematic attention. I've been raking over the de Vere bio page; a lot of fantasy was infused in the last "rewrite". Tom Reedy (talk) 22:13, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Oxfordian numerology

I've just read an Oxfordian article cited in the text and replaced the copy of the abstract that was there before with this clearer summary:

A 2009 article in the Oxfordian journal Brief Chronicles noted that Meres compares 17 named English poets to 16 named classical poets, and claims that the numbers should be symmetrical, so this is proof that two of the English poets (viz., Oxford and Shakespeare) are actually one and the same.<ref>Robert Detobel and K.C. Ligon, ''Brief Chronicles'' I (2009), 123-137.</ref>

Should this reference just be removed? I'm not sure this is a notable argument for Oxfordianism. - Cal Engime (talk) 21:37, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I find the argument ludicrous beyond words. I quite like it for that reason - since it screams out its own silliness. But of course it is not a notable argument discussed by other writers. Oxfordian editors are keen to include stuff from this journal because it comprises their main bid for academic respectability. I actually think it would be better to have a section discussing Oxfordian publications, ending with the establishment of this journal itself, noting that it aims to situate itself as a peer reviewed scholarly journal (see the Brief Chronicles article written by its editor). A few comments on the content af articles including this one could be added in that section. Paul B (talk) 21:47, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

It isn't notable in the Misplaced Pages sense of the term, so no, it shouldn't be included. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:09, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

So what's next for this article?

It's in a lot better shape than it was, but still a long way from Good status. For one thing, all of the citations need to be checked, and then the veracity of the citation should be determined and if it's questionable, it either needs to be noted or deleted. (I'm not too sure of Ogburn's claim about Michael Lok, for example.) In fact, should the spurious evidence Oxfordians give be rebutted as soon as it's mentioned? Tom Reedy (talk) 21:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Monstrous Adversary confirms a £3,000 investment in this voyage by Oxford on credit. Are you suggesting that there may now be too much immediate rebuttal or too little? - Cal Engime (talk) 04:11, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm saying Ogburn's interpretation of it may be faulty, and that all of his assertions need to be checked with other sources and rebutted if need be. My recollection is hazy, but I seem to recall that Michael Lok was the father of one of Oxford's servants, and Oxford stiffed him for a decade or so of back wages. I'll check when I get back in town. Tom Reedy (talk) 14:04, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Is the name "Michael Lok" significant in some way for Ogburn? Are we supposed to connect it with "Shy - lock"? Is that the idea? Paul B (talk) 15:06, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

The main problem with this article is that it is almost impossible to decide what arguments are sufficiently important to include and what are not. It's also very difficult to find a model for organising the arguments. The article suffers from the worst of "Misplaced Pages syndrome" - bits of Oxfordian argument thrown in higgledipiggldy, with "Stratfordian" rebuttals scattered about. What's included and what's excluded seems almost arbitrary. Paul B (talk) 20:00, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

If we don't strictly limit the depth of this article, the never-ending stream of Oxfordian editors demanding to know why the article doesn't include decisive arguments X, Y, and Z will bloat it to the size of one of their thousand-page books. - Cal Engime (talk) 01:21, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Stratfordian Interpretation and Analysis of the Oxfordian theory of the Shakespeare authorship

This is what the title of this article should be. "William Shakespeare" was a pseudonym sometimes spelled "Shake-speare". We have six surviving signatures of Will Shakspere from Stratford on Avon. He himself never spelled his name "Shakespeare," not even in his will, which mentions nothing of books, plays, or manuscripts. His name would not have been pronounced as we pronounce "Shakespeare" now. The dearth of hard information regarding Shakspere is incredible, as no mention of him as a person is ever made, though there are references to the pseudonym. In fact, we know more about any number of other writers who were living at the time. No one made any mention of Shakspere when he died. His children were illiterate, and neither them nor his son-in-law ever thought he was a writer. Most of the people from Stratford were illiterate. It should be mentioned that the Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford also had an estate on the river Avon, and he life in the Stratford suburb of London, two references made in the dedication to the First Folio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.125.47 (talk) 00:39, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I understand your opinion, but Misplaced Pages is not the place for cutting-edge analysis of the authorship question, nor does it indiscriminately collect arguments for fringe views; it is an academically conservative reference work which reflects the balance of opinion in reliable sources, none of which give any credence to these arguments. - Cal Engime (talk) 01:13, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Incidentally, your generic anti-Stratfordian arguments about the lack of information about Shakespeare, supposed illiteracy of his family, etc. have nothing to do with Oxfordianism per se, and belong at articles like Shakespeare authorship question and Spelling of Shakespeare's name. The fact that de Vere inherited an estate on the Avon and lived near Stratford is in fact already mentioned in this article, in the section "Stratford connections and Oxford's annuity". - Cal Engime (talk) 01:25, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know, he never lived there. He rented the property, then sold it. He owned (and usually sold) lots of properties all over the country. Of course no-one would refer to Oxford by the name of the river near a house he didn't live in and sold 20 years earlier - they'd refer to his birthplace Castle Hedingham or house in Hackney. The fact that this ludicrous argument is presented as "evidence" is indicative of the utter impossiblity of rational argument. Paul B (talk) 16:45, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in my comment was "cutting-edge analysis." These arguments have been around for decades. They've been ignored and ridiculed by orthodox scholars, but they're not new or, again, "cutting edge." The fact that they have been around for some time and have gathered the support of distguished researchers, scholars, and intellectuals is plenty argument enough that they should be included in any article that discusses Oxford as the author of the plays. This also demonstrates that they are not "fringe" theories. Various Oxfordians groups and societies exist to promote research in this area. Many articles and books have been written on the subject. Thus, they are not "fringe" theories, and your calling them so does not make them so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.120.131 (talk) 02:27, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I sympathise with your enthusiasm, but it doesn't matter how many lawyers, librarians, and independent researchers consider Shakespeare's authorship an open question. For the purpose of determining due weight, only representation in reliable sources on Elizabethan literary history is relevant, and the world's Oxfordian English professors can be counted on one hand. As long as the Oxfordian theory is, as you note, "ignored and ridiculed" by the academic establishment, Misplaced Pages policies, guidelines, and essays are clear that it should not be treated like an equally valid alternative to what all the experts have believed for centuries. (Please save us the trouble of the usual self-comparison to Galileo.) - Cal Engime (talk) 03:01, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

How do you define "reliable"? The so-called experts ignore, distort, and misrepresent evidence that contradicts their point of view. For how many centuries have "experts" believed that the sun revolved around the Earth before scientists argued to the contrary. Many Shakespeare scholars simply refuse to engage the authorship question and will not let graduate students do serious research in the field if they want to become accredited in the field. Therefore, it is largely a "closed" field in academia, shut out to those who hold anything other than the traditional view. Thus, it is left to researchers outside of university English departments to write and research on the issue. This article is about, or should be about, the "Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship". It should not be about the "Stratfordian dismissal of the Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship," which is currently how is it written. And because it is about the Oxfordian theory, it would not be giving "undue weight" to this theory to discuss it in an objective way, rather than biased way it is being discussed now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.2.100 (talk) 03:16, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

You know, I asked you politely not to compare yourself to Galileo.

Thank you for asking what makes a source "reliable" for the purposes of Misplaced Pages. Here is the relevant section of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability:

The word "source" in Misplaced Pages has three meanings: the work itself (a document, article, paper, or book), the creator of the work (for example, the writer), and the publisher of the work (for example, Oxford University Press). All three can affect reliability.

Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Source material must have been published (made available to the public in some form); unpublished materials are not considered reliable. Sources should directly support the material presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made. The appropriateness of any source depends on the context. In general, the best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments; as a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source. Content related to living people or medicine should be sourced especially carefully.

Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science. But they are not the only reliable sources in such areas. Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, and mainstream newspapers. Electronic media may also be used, subject to the same criteria. See details in Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources and Misplaced Pages:Search engine test.

Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view also contains relevant material:

Pseudoscientific theories are presented by proponents as science, but characteristically fail to adhere to scientific standards and methods. Conversely, by its very nature, scientific consensus is the majority viewpoint of scientists towards a topic. Thus, when talking about pseudoscientific topics, we should not describe these two opposing viewpoints as being equal to each other. While pseudoscience may in some cases be significant to an article, it should not obfuscate the description of the mainstream views of the scientific community. Any inclusion of pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight. The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such. An explanation of how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories should be prominently included. This helps us to describe differing views fairly. This also applies to other fringe subjects, for instance, forms of historical revisionism that are considered by more reliable sources to either lack evidence or actively ignore evidence, such as Holocaust denial, or claims the Apollo moon landing was faked.

If academics treat the whole question as a waste of time, that only further attests to its fringe status. Whether or not this treatment is justified is irrelevant. - Cal Engime (talk) 03:40, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

You are using circular reasoning to define what is "reliable" in this case. Moreover, Roger Stritmatter is a Shakespeare academic who doesn't think this is a waste of time. His research demonstrates the concordance between Edward de Vere's bible and the "Shakespeare" plays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.115.11 (talk) 12:47, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of Dr Stritmatter reminds me—if you are the user identified at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Shakespeare authorship question as "The anon editor who most recently edited as 71.191.2.38 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (previously 71.191.7.125 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 71.191.11.102 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 71.191.1.240 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and other IPs shown in the page history of Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford)", then I must inform you are subject to a topic ban on all pages related to the Shakespeare authorship question or Edward de Vere, and may not even discuss these subjects on talk pages or any other part of Misplaced Pages.

In any case, the standards used to determine the reliable sources on William Shakespeare and the authorship question are the same as those on every other topic covered in Misplaced Pages, and this is neither the time nor the place to reconsider them. - Cal Engime (talk) 20:52, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Are you going to arrest me? I understand that Misplaced Pages editors like ban editors who disagree with them. Just don't harm my children or other family members. Allow me my last cigarette before you put me before the firing squad.

Misplaced Pages is obviously not the place to discuss the Shakespeare authorship question, as all articles and discussions related to the matter are controlled by people who control the orthodox point of view, which common sense and reason demonstrate is utter nonsense. It will be left the younger generation of thinkers and scholars to lead the way, while the older generation hangs on to its Santa Clause fantasy of Shakspere from Stratford as the author of the great "Shakespearean" plays. The so-called "experts" in the field are wrong and refuse to admit it. It is not a fringe theory to explain they Shakspere wrote no plays and that Edward de Vere did. And discussing these realities is not giving them "undue weight". If I am wrong about all this, then Misplaced Pages as an open source of information is a failure as a source of intelligent and objective information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.0.162 (talk) 19:17, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

It really is best to just ignore these types of editors and just remind them of the final arbitration decision. Talk page abuse is also covered under the sanctions, so any violations can be deleted. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, my anonymous friend, it's hard to take accusations of bias seriously when they come from someone who thinks the first sentence should be "The Oxfordian theory of Shakespearean authorship convincingly demonstrates that Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford (1550–1604), wrote the plays and poems traditionally attributed to William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon." I would be happy to continue this discussion via e-mail, but further flagrant violations of your topic ban will be reverted. - Cal Engime (talk) 20:33, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Original research

Cal Engime, a lot of your additions seem to be WP:OR. For example, in the section Plays referring to post 1604-historical events, the very first sentence is sourced to a site that says nothing about the Oxfordian interpretation of Macbeth. Sources cited must be in context to the article, IOW they should directly support the information as it is presented in an article. And any statement that cites scholarly consensus must be sourced to a reliable reference that states exactly that; an editor cannot make that determination himself. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:38, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

That is the source cited by the anonymous user who added that paragraph in 2006. - Cal Engime (talk) 20:47, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Status and purpose of a "Talk page"

What has been said to "Talk pages"?

8) The purpose of a talk page is to provide a location for editors to discuss changes to the associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject. Editors should aspire to use talk pages effectively and must not misuse them through practices such as excessive repetition, monopolization, irrelevancy, advocacy, misrepresentation of others' comments, or personal attacks.

So, I understand that a talk page is still a page for a free discussion of the associated article. What is a personal view which is "not allowed"? Everybody speaks from a personal point of view, user Cengime, user Tom Reedy, user Zbrnajsem. I say once more: Nobody has the right to restrict free decent discussion on Misplaced Pages in the 21st century. This would be completely absurd! This would be outright censorship. There can be no restrictions for talk contributions to this special page on the Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship in the way that this talk page could only be used by persons adhering to the so-called mainstream theory (called by most people "Stratfordian theory"). I am to a high degree critical to voices saying that the Oxfordian theory is something like creationism or thing like this. What sort of argument is this? This arguing has no value, no dignity.

As to the "ban" on monopolization, what about this special moment? Are there people who would like to monopolize this talk page for a certain view of the Oxfordian theory, and in the same time to exclude the other view, I mean the view of the supporters of this theory as such?

And is there a possibility to criticize something like a misuse of such practices like excessive deleting on this page, which we experienced in the past days? --Zbrnajsem (talk) 11:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Please read the links in the information about the ArbCom sanctions I placed on your talk page.

Also please read Misplaced Pages: Talk page guidelines, which specifically states that "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject", as well as Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not. Believe it or not, Misplaced Pages is not about free speech. I hope this answers your questions. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:48, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

As to your other questions: this article is about "the view of the supporters of this theory as such", so the views are not being excluded, but neutrally presented and put into academic context. As far as I can see, no one has deleted any material from this page, but any off-topic abuse of the talk page can and will be deleted. I do see that the archive robot has moved some old discussions to the archives, where they may be found. Tom Reedy (talk) 12:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

You have every right to criticise what you may consider to be "excessive deletion", though you should explain why you think specific deletions are inappropriate. And may I remind you that your recent reappearance on this talk page was to praise an editor for deleting material you didn't like, despite the fact that it was largely accurate . So your complaint is not very consistent. If you want to discuss what arguments should be included and how the article should be organised you are welcome to do so. For some reason very few Oxfordian editors seem to be able to engage in discussion of that sort, but instead use the talk page to "prove" their case. So far you have been no exception, but you can still participate usefully if you choose to do so. Paul B (talk) 13:05, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I have carefully read everything what was told to me above, and I can say that I find especially the response of Paul B quite helpful. I still don´t understand what "an academic context" should be. I am not a scholar specialized on literature, this I can say. However, I have earned a PhD of a certain kind, so I consider myself an academician. Or would it be false in someone´s eyes to make such a self-description? Well, I am a supporter of the Oxfordian theory, and as such I demand the right to participate on this talk page. However, I know that I would be immediately topic-banned, if I tried to state something supporting Oxford in any article concerning the Shakespeare case, not only in the article on the Oxfordian theory, but even in the article on the historical person of Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. It is allowed to me just to do very minor editing, isn´t it? Does anybody think this is compatible with standards of publishing on this electronic encyclopaedia in the 21st century, this age of enlightment? I find myself remembered on some previous ages, and I strongly oppose such attitudes. The existence of the "topic-ban" is the reason why not many Oxfordians can be "useful" for this and the other articles. As soon as they say they are Oxfordians, they are confronted with a lot of reproach, to describe the real situation very tactfully. So the article on the Oxfordian theory does not say everything what is known, and there is scarcely anybody who can oversee the whole matter. The deleting of the last time was excessive, this is my opinion. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 15:12, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not most useful to readers as a bastion of academic freedom. It is a stodgy and conventional reference work that millions of people rely on for verifiable, mainstream information. Understandably, some people would like to exploit Misplaced Pages's popularity to promote their personal views among unwitting readers. Imagine that you were looking for information about radiometric dating, knowing nothing about the subject, and some creationist had written all over the page that this method is not very reliable and that many scientists now think radioactive decay is non-constant. This creationist might complain if his views were confined to a single paragraph saying that this is something creationists believe and no physicists take seriously, or even completely excluded from the page, but the article is more useful to readers if it explains the views of specialists in the relevant fields without giving equal validity to the views of millions of religious people.

What about Young Earth creationism—should that article be a POV fork where the creationist can write at length about supposed evidence for radiometric dating being useless? No: it's more helpful for people looking up young-Earth creationism if it is clearly described as pseudoscientific and everything in the article is prominently contrasted with the mainstream view.

Although Oxfordians regularly claim that their numbers are growing within and without academia, Oxfordianism has zero representation in reliable sources, and no doubt practically all of the voluminous research published on Shakespeare every year simply takes Shakespeare's authorship for granted as a well-established fact. Whether or not Oxfordianism deserves to be marginalised is not for us to judge; fringe views need to be clearly described as such.

About your specific concern of excessive deletions, most of which I was responsible for: articles that take excessively long to read are not helpful to the reader. Only a few examples of what Oxfordians claim as evidence are necessary to give an overview of the theory; anybody who decides that they want more information can easily find it in the article's sources and on the Internet. The fact that the whole theory is notable doesn't mean that any individual argument is. - Cal Engime (talk) 17:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

You and me will obviously not very soon find the same speech and the same attitude towards the problem involved, Cal Engime. Creationism is not a good argument or example for the reasons to neglect the Oxfordian theory. Creationism is really outdated, it is something which is opposed to our modern knowledge about nature. As I see it, Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship is a problem for historical research, among other fields, but mostly a problem of history in general and history of English literature in particular. I can´t agree with you, I am sorry. There can´t be any limits for historical research in a free society, and if somebody tries to create barriers for it, then this approach is not scientific. Who can be the authority to take a definitive decision on the validity of all the theories - in every detail - about the reasons why e.g. World War I broke out, and for the motives which led to it? By the way, where is the definitive, final and irreversible evidence for the so-called mainstream theory? Can there be a definitive evidence in this special case? Can´t we look for counter-evidence, and are we not allowed to present evidence, even circumstantial one, for the only different theory which matters (in my view)? Judge Stevens is a respectable person, by no means a creationist, and he has developped this view of the matter. Well, now I have seen better than before that you in fact agreed that the Oxfordian theory is notable. OK, it really is, and so more arguments, more detailed arguments, for this theory should be placed on Misplaced Pages. There are already many arguments presented by mainstream scholars against it on Misplaced Pages, and there is no equilibrium. Maybe I am not the person who will do this work to a large extent, because of my still limited knowledge of some necessary details. But for me, this theory has a great substance, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence for it, and I am almost sure there is not only circumstantial evidence. --Zbrnajsem (talk) 20:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

This talk page is not an appropriate forum for general discussion of the authorship question, but I will send you an e-mail detailing some of the evidence that convinces me that the plays and poems were written by William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon. - Cal Engime (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

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