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• WT:MED

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Prostate cancer

User above is now attempting to remove review articles from 2010/2011 saying that they are old and out of date. Extra eyes appreciated. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 21:23, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

It looks like you and the editor in question have worked out the immediate issue - is that correct? MastCell  05:01, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Beginning too. Extra eye however are appreciated.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 06:06, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I echo Doc James' call for more eyes. Would also benefit from eyes on Mammography, Breast cancer and Breast cancer screening where this editor has also been editing. This editor has a particularly "aggressive" style of editing, and seems to be under the impression that any opinion not published in the last year is "outdated". Yobol (talk) 17:00, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Or that anything not published by the Cochrane group is not suitable for Misplaced Pages. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 00:20, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Here he states he thinks only Cochrane should be used. Here he calls a review from 8 months ago "old" . Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 01:28, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to watch all these pages and also related ones. NCurse _work 06:37, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 13:35, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Artificial nutrition and hydration in end-of-life care.

The Liverpool Care Pathway, the UK NHS protocol for care of the dying in the last hours of life, is in the news again.

Following a Daily Mail piece last month that it's all a plot to starve and dehydrate the elderly to an untimely death, the story has been taken up by more papers yesterday and today, generally in a sensationalist and utterly uninformed way, following a letter to the Daily Telegraph by six usual suspects grinding some rather worn axes.

After the DM piece, the wiki article has unfortunately acquired a "Controversy" section, which currently leaves rather a lot to be desired.

I'd be grateful if anyone with a good grasp of palliative / end-of-life care could step in and sort out the wheat from the chaff. Jheald (talk) 03:12, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I think this is resolved now. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 21:11, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Is a separate Controversy section really warranted at all, given the overlap with critical material in the Reception? —MistyMorn (talk) 22:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking along those lines too, so have simply removed the "Controversy" subheading, leaving the text under "Reception." --Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Now there's the small question of what weight to give to povs such as those included in a "recent" newspaper letter written by some activist doctors. —MistyMorn (talk) 08:58, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The remaining content doesn't characterise the controversy very well, doesn't clarify whether it is a popular or scientific controversy, and doesn't really establish the existence of a significant controversy. Perhaps we should continue this on the article talk page. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:13, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Childbirth

I would appreciate more eyes on this page. A familiar editor to those who have been watching the prostate cancer and breast cancer pages recently has been adding information to WP:SYNTHesize dangers of induction of labor before 39 weeks using primary studies. Some of the material also does not appear to be supported by the sources provided. Yobol (talk) 03:13, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes I saw that primary research paper and that he added it. Am meaning to see if there are secondary sources that support this.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 03:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

There are dangers for inducing labor at any point. There are also dangers for not inducing labor. This is really a question of balancing benefits and risks. For example, in the presence of preeclampsia, you may well have a choice between inducing early or planning a funeral.

James, when you look for sources, please see whether you can find sources that differentiate between early inductions "for cause" and early inductions for convenience. The recent changes in the article seem to be using all early inductions and claiming that it proves something specifically about early inductions in healthy mothers. It seems likely to me that the serious medical problems that lead to many early inductions might be more likely to produce the harms that are being touted here than the isolated fact of slightly early delivery. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

That was my impression. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 13:44, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I would appreciate more input on the talk page of the article, especially regarding the appropriateness of primary studies in the article, the recent additions to the lead, and the single-minded focus and WP:WEIGHT on the dangers of pre-39 week induced labor. This editor continues to add disputed content, and would appreciate input on whether I'm misreading policy. Thanks. Yobol (talk) 00:43, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes agree much of it needs fixing. The headings are too long. The sources need fixing up. etc. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 02:36, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Notablity of medical devices

I've tagged some claims in Venowave, and I wonder if the subject is notable. Any guidance on the notability of medical devices? I don't know the particulars of this article, but does one randomized controlled trial on a device establish notability, for example? Biosthmors (talk) 20:18, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Not medically notable for its own page until a review article appears or discussion in a major textbook IMO.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 02:38, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Technically, it's the same as any other commercial product, so WP:CORP applies. That generally means that you need two completely unrelated sources (two different authors and two different publications, and none of them controlled by or employed by the manufacturer) to qualify for an article. A review article by someone connected to the manufacturer is a secondary source, but it's not an independent/third-party source, which is a critical point for notability. (WP:Secondary does not mean independent.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Article: Eschar

|Hello NCurse,

as stated in the headline I have a Question regarding the medical Article Eschar. I am slightly confused by the image included in the Article. The caption states the wound in question to be covered by an Eschar (scab). Searching for scab though leads nowhere near the Article in question. This leads me to the following I would like to inquire: Is the object in the picture a wound covered in an Eschar or in a scab? (Especially since the term "black wound" redicrect to Eschar and the picture shows no such thing.) If it is the latter, the picture would have to be removed. The former leads to the second question. Are scab and eschar synonyms (Addendum: per the greek origin)? If yes it would follow that appropriate consequences be taken in the article scab. If not, the word would have to be removed from the question.

I sinccerely appreciate your input and would like to thank you for your time.

With regards --Abracus (talk) 21:46, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I believe it would be better to hear the opinion of the whole medical community on this. Please post it on the talk page of WikiProject Medicine as well. NCurse _work 06:37, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Clinically all eschars are scabs, but all scabs are not eschars. An eschar is dry, black, hard necrotic tissue (see: ). In dermatology, some remember a basic differential for an eschar with the mnemonic CAGES T: Clostridium/Calciphylaxis, Aspergillus/Anthrax, Group B strep, Ecthyma gangrenosum, Spider bite, and Tache noir from ricketssial spotted fevers. Hope that helps. ---My Core Competency is Competency (talk) 15:23, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Expert suggestion by "My core". I agree. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (please reply on my talk page) 18:51, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Hello Jmh, Hello My core,

thank you for your quick answers. (This is cross posted in the medicine portal and on Jmhs' talk page as per his request.) My core and you, Jmh, answered the questions I raised halfway. Namely you state An eschar is dry, black, hard necrotic tissue. The picture in the WP-article does indeed show no such thing. While the scab shown it might be dry and hard, it is certainly not black. (Wherefore I assume it is not an Eschar.) Also, since you made the distinctions clear, might it not be necessary to alter the article about wound healing (to which scab redirects) in such a way that the logical distinction becomes clear? The caption under the image in question also remains in its illogical state. I raised the question because I did and do not feel qualified to edit medical articles and the logic of both of them seemed contradictory.

Your

--Abracus (talk) 23:49, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Based on the definition given above, the image is question is a scab but not an eschar. For examples of what an eschar looks like see . The image name and caption should probably be changed. ---My Core Competency is Competency (talk) 12:45, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I have a picture of one which I will upload shortly.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 13:35, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

In the meantime, the old image has now been moved to File:Scab.jpg. -- The Anome (talk) 19:54, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia Medicine

We had a short discussion at Wikimania this week about starting a thematic organization as per here . People interested in being involved? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 13:36, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

1. I would love to try to help get the chapter started. As the intern at Wikimedia NYC I can help set up the starting documents and get probono lawyers to help out. Peter.C • talk • contribs 13:51, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
2. I am interested to help as well. -- Daniel Mietchen - WiR/OS (talk) 14:12, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
3. Sounds neat. I'd be interested to see where it goes. Canada Hky (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
4. I would be involved. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:16, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
5. This is very encouraging. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:52, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
6. Interested in principle, although limited time and travel opportunities at this point. Increased online collaboration would be marvellous. JFW | T@lk 20:10, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

   Yes activities would take place primarily online Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 22:33, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

7. I'd get involved too. Hildabast (talk) 16:12, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
8. I'm interested. Biosthmors (talk) 17:44, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Have begun the proposal at meta

here. Peter Coti has kindly offered his parents to help us incorporate. As the number of groups wishing to partner with us at WP:MED increases it is important that we have an organization that can work with them in person as well as online. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 14:51, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedian in residence at WHO

Meet with a gentleman from the World Health Organization this week. They are interested in the idea of having a Wikipedian in residence. Would anyone here be interested in a such a position? Discussions are still in their very early stages. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 22:33, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Description of Wikipedian in residence. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:36, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I think engaging in that discussion is worth our time even if nobody specific signals an interest right now. Once the conditions (scope, location, duration, remuneration, expected outcomes etc.) become clearer, we can contact suitable people in a more targeted manner. -- Daniel Mietchen - WiR/OS (talk) 22:20, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I am interested to hear more details about this position when the framework for it is more developed. Biosthmors (talk) 17:49, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm in. --Arcadian (talk) 11:41, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Orthostasis: request for advice

I've redirected orthostasis to standing, as that is the literal meaning of the term. However, "orthostasis" previously linked to orthostatic hypotension, and orthostasis is linked extensively elsewhere, presumably in some cases with the intent of linking this other meaning.

This is where expert help is needed. Are there any other things "orthostasis" and/or "orthostatic" could mean? Could some of the page linkers have intended other meanings, such as orthostatic intolerance. orthostatic hypertension, orthostatic tremor?

For some links, see:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:WhatLinksHere/Orthostasis (currently from 11 mainspace articles)
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:WhatLinksHere/Orthostatic (currently from 6 mainspace articles)

What's the best way to proceed with this? A disambiguation page? A hatnote? -- The Anome (talk) 14:20, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Can anyone here help with this, please? -- The Anome (talk) 17:30, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Editors adding multiple links to his own papers across many articles

User:Miroslavpohanka is adding many links to his own papers to stuff they do not really support. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 22:57, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Ayurveda safety concerns

The lead of the article on Ayurveda contains a paragraph on safety concerns, which are a major issue in the discussion in independent reliable sources. This paragraph, naturally, is loathed by proponents of Ayurveda who either delete it or try to bury it elsewhere in the article. More eyes would be apprectiated. A discussion is in progress on the article talk page. Thanks. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 12:36, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Have watched the article in question. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 15:09, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Secondary or primary sources?

And continues to insist that primary sources can be used to refute secondary sources. They are using this primary source to refute this secondary one . See discussion here and among other places. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 15:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I read wiki rules treat NCI "Cancer Trends Progress Report" as secondary. It's used elsewhere as secondary. NCI should be senior to BJC review. ie a review of reviews (NCI) is better than one underlying (BJC) review.

I plan to use http://www.dietandcancerreport.org/cancer_resource_center/downloads/WCRF%20Policy%20US%20Summary_final.pdf to supplement the NCI.32cllou (talk) 16:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

This ref should not be used at all as it is a primary source. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 16:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Yup, it's just a progress report of an original study - a primary source, apparently without peer review. —MistyMorn (talk) 17:11, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is the full policy report (NCI refers us) http://www.dietandcancerreport.org/cancer_resource_center/downloads/Policy_Report.pdf 32cllou (talk) 17:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Great and I am happy with the reference. However please do not remove other recent secondary sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 17:05, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

"The report is based on the most recent data from the National Cancer Institute, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, other federal agencies, professional groups, and cancer researchers."

That does not sound like a primary source or an original study to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:22, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

However this bit is and is looking at the consumption rates of fruits in vegatables in the USA rather than specifically the cancer risk associated with said consumption.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 17:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree that is a primary source. The connection between diet and cancer is complex, with apparently reliable secondary sources contradicting each other. Here is a discussion about diet & lung cancer. (No doubt WhatamIdoing would criticize my analysis of the sources.) Axl ¤ 20:08, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

There's lots of work to do in those three articles(diet, healthy diet, prostate cancer) based on this review and policy statement(s), and please help (be constructive, not obstructive). We only have space for the best secondary, not one BJC review which (lone) says different stuff and confuses stronger findings. Do not remove NCI statements re antioxidants, high heated meat, and fruit and vegetable (spec types of plant foods) consumption and reduced risk of specific cancers. We should be taking this opportunity to read the whole report http://www.dietandcancerreport.org/cancer_resource_center/downloads/Policy_Report.pdf 32cllou (talk) 17:15, 16 July 2012 (UTC)32cllou (talk) 17:16, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

So if I understand you correctly you plan to continue to try to remove this review article from 2011 ? Is it that you disagree with its conclusions? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 17:21, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

We have plenty of space. Adding one extra sentence to say that things aren't 100% proven doesn't cost us a dime. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:24, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

OK BJC leave in, but generally isn't http://www.dietandcancerreport.org/cancer_resource_center/downloads/Policy_Report.pdf ie peer committee findings policy review of reviews superior to that single BJC review? Isn't it bad to place BCJ inferior review where it will harm stronger secondary?32cllou (talk) 17:45, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Again, I don't think this is a binary either/or situation. We can cite both sources (and I agree with WhatamIdoing that both are secondary). The sources don't really differ much, except by putting a slightly different "spin" on existing data. The NCI source says there is "some suggested evidence for a lower risk of cancers" with a healthy diet, whereas the 2011 Br J. Cancer review says there is "little to no evidence".

To me, the sources are basically agreeing that there isn't very much or very strong evidence. But there's also nothing to lose by encouraging Americans to eat a healthier diet - no one is going to be harmed, and there are proven benefits in the non-cancer outcomes - so the NCI puts a slightly more positive spin on the limited evidence for cancer risk. This falls squarely under "experts reviewing the same data reach slightly different conclusions" category, and we should just explain and cite both positions. MastCell  18:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree and will add back in a summary using " It is recommended that people maintain a normal weight (limiting consumption of energy dense foods and sugary drinks), eat plant based food, limit red and processed meat, and limit alcohol." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 20:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Selenium

PS looks like we need that selenium sentence back Doc from secondary see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22648711 32cllou (talk) 17:50, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes there is a relationship between selenium serum levels and cancer per the ref. This report on page 150 states that a trial of supplementation did not find benefit. I will add this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 17:53, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Higher selenium blood levels have been associated with a lower risk of prostate cancer, a trial of supplementation however did not find benefit.

Good. I came back here just now to please add the concern that users would (they should NOT) think supplements are beneficial.32cllou (talk) 18:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm slightly troubled by this - the association between selenium levels and prostate cancer is supposed to be a preliminary result which generates the hypothesis that selenium supplementation might prevent prostate cancer. That hypothesis has been tested, and it didn't pan out. To go back to the statistical association reported in cohort studies seems silly, when this idea has already been tested in a prospective, randomized fashion. But that's me. MastCell  18:55, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I was the one who took it out, but then finding the review Doc used thought he might want it back.

Yes so we now state there was tentative evidence that their was an association with selenium but that it did not pan out. I am not attached to the wording I added and am happy if you wish to clarify it further. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 20:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Insulin-like growth factor

What do you think about http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16900085 insulin-like growth factor? Isn't that a known pro prostate cancer risk agent?32cllou (talk) 18:57, 16 July 2012 (UTC)32cllou (talk) Sorry forgot to give you all this ref http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9637140 32cllou (talk) 19:03, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes would belong in the section on pathophysiology. This ref is better Rowlands, MA (2009 May 15). "Circulating insulin-like growth factor peptides and prostate cancer risk: a systematic review and meta-analysis". International journal of cancer. Journal international du cancer. 124 (10): 2416–29. PMID 19142965. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help). Feel free to add it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 21:02, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

How about this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15110491 to paraphrase a short sentence from this quote: "High concentrations of IGF-I were associated with an increased risk of prostate cancer (odds ratio comparing 75th with 25th percentile 1.49, 95% CI 1.14-1.95) and premenopausal breast cancer (1.65, 1.26-2.08) and high concentrations of IGFBP-3 were associated with increased risk of premenopausal breast cancer (1.51, 1.01-2.27). Associations were larger in assessments of plasma samples than in serum samples, and in standard case-control studies compared with nested studies. INTERPRETATION:

Circulating concentrations of IGF-I and IGFBP-3 are associated with an increased risk of common cancers, but associations are modest and vary between sites. Although laboratory methods need to be standardised, these epidemiological observations could have major implications for assessment of risk and prevention of cancer."32cllou (talk) 22:22, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

The other one is a little newer (2009 verses 2004) thus I would use the newer one. But they both say the same thing. "High levels of IGF-I are linked to prostate cancer" maybe Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 23:24, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Antioxidants and cancer

Can I use this research? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15523104 abstract below For a short sentence like Consumption of antioxidant rich foods may reduce cancer risk.

"Epidemiological studies show that a high intake of anti-oxidant-rich foods is inversely related to cancer risk. While animal and cell cultures confirm the anticancer effects of antioxidants, intervention trials to determine their ability to reduce cancer risk have been inconclusive, although selenium and vitamin E reduced the risk of some forms of cancer, including prostate and colon cancer, and carotenoids have been shown to help reduce breast cancer risk. Cancer treatment by radiation and anticancer drugs reduces inherent antioxidants and induces oxidative stress, which increases with disease progression. Vitamins E and C have been shown to ameliorate adverse side effects associated with free radical damage to normal cells in cancer therapy, such as mucositis and fibrosis, and to reduce the recurrence of breast cancer. While clinical studies on the effect of anti-oxidants in modulating cancer treatment are limited in number and size, experimental studies show that antioxidant vitamins and some phytochemicals selectively induce apoptosis in cancer cells but not in normal cells and prevent angiogenesis and metastatic spread, suggesting a potential role for antioxidants as adjuvants in cancer therapy."32cllou (talk) 15:47, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

PS Are you all sure I can't use that NCI Factsheet to make the same statement? How about if I don't list any specific foods like the NCI factsheet did?32cllou (talk) 15:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

The thing is we have a number of excellent recent studies which has found that supplementation of antioxidants actually increases cancer risk. Will provide them shortly. The human body uses oxidation to destroy cancerous cells thus anti oxidants may not be a good idea. And well some foods may decrease the risk of cancer there is little evidence that this occurs via antioxidant mechanisms.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 16:02, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

A number of refs

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22218797

1. http://www.aarp.org/health/drugs-supplements/info-10-2011/vitamin-e-supplements-raise-prostate-cancer-risk-health-discovery.html

Will find better references soon. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 16:08, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

There are a lot of good systematic reviews on this question - but in this instance, the Cochrane over-arching one is really solid . The reviews are very controversial in this area, partly because it's hard to understand how on earth relatively slow-growing cancers could appear so quickly. So it's not causing, but accelerating, perhaps. And here's something you could consider as an external link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0005077/ Hildabast (talk) 11:09, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll mostly use this review for diet http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/4841/1/4841.pdf , which doesn't say much about antioxidants. Here's one quote pg 75 "Vegetables and fruits are generally low in energy density (with a few exceptions) and, when consumed in variety, are sources of many vitamins, minerals, and other bioactive compounds (phytochemicals)" and I can use one of many secondary to say bioactive phytochemicals are often antioxidants. And "Many herbs and spices have potent pharmacological as well as culinary properties."32cllou (talk) 16:33, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Can we use this one? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15523104 mostly for the first sentence

"Abstract Epidemiological studies show that a high intake of anti-oxidant-rich foods is inversely related to cancer risk. While animal and cell cultures confirm the anticancer effects of antioxidants, intervention trials to determine their ability to reduce cancer risk have been inconclusive, although selenium and vitamin E reduced the risk of some forms of cancer, including prostate and colon cancer, and carotenoids have been shown to help reduce breast cancer risk. Cancer treatment by radiation and anticancer drugs reduces inherent antioxidants and induces oxidative stress, which increases with disease progression. Vitamins E and C have been shown to ameliorate adverse side effects associated with free radical damage to normal cells in cancer therapy, such as mucositis and fibrosis, and to reduce the recurrence of breast cancer. While clinical studies on the effect of anti-oxidants in modulating cancer treatment are limited in number and size, experimental studies show that antioxidant vitamins and some phytochemicals selectively induce apoptosis in cancer cells but not in normal cells and prevent angiogenesis and metastatic spread, suggesting a potential role for antioxidants as adjuvants in cancer therapy."32cllou (talk) 16:43, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

PS consistently supplements are bad, fruits and low calorie density vegetables good.32cllou (talk) 16:45, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Those claims in that article aren't supported by the evidence: the evidence suggests something else completely. The article is the personal point of view of a single person, writing in 2004 without any formal review of the evidence. It has a very high risk of bias, and it is very out of date. In some areas, 2004 information could still be current, but not in something as heavily researched as this. You don't see studies specifically about fruit and vegetables: it's a part of a dietary pattern, and so assumptions are made. You might find the discussion about that in the American Cancer Society Guidelines useful : for a big picture explanation on nutrition, it looks quite good. (For the issue of supplements, then the Cochrane review I cited before.) But these contradict, in important points, several statements in that 2004 opinion piece. Hildabast (talk) 17:04, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the ACS guidelines, which I'll use to reinforce recommends same as http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/4841/1/4841.pdf though I found more for food class info for prostate cancer.32cllou (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Dissociative Identity Disorder

... has serious problems with reliable sources, original research, undue weight, and possible meatpuppetry. I do not feel I can edit the article neutrally, but I would appreciate if some MEDRS-conversant editors could take a look at it. There is a very stark disconnect between the old, stable article and the radically rewritten version created by a single purpose agenda account. Skinwalker (talk) 17:09, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I need some unbiased help on this page. Editor WLU(t) is Canvassing - diff. Please read what he wrote this morning. I don't want a battle. I just want an unbiased page on DID. I am totally open to help from unbiased editors! See his last note under Howdy on his talk page. This man has so many friends on WP and so much power it's been impossible to work without being completely micromanaged by him in the past - so much so that I don't think I have actually ever even had one edit stay on the page until now. In this paragraph titled "Howdy" he plays victim, which is so far from the truth it's insane. Those that oppose him usually get banned from the DID page or give up and go away. This might be the wrong place to take this, but the admin board is where many of his friends hangout. Please give me advice! By the way - how am I a meatpuppet when I am pretty much in there by my self? The last revert however is a suspicious act by another reverting back to WLU's old version.~ty (talk) 16:52, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

The article needs attention from accounts with access to the sources and a willingness to put in the time, but mostly from accounts who are familiar with the policies and guidelines (or even manual of style - even the table of contents illustrates some of the problems on the page). WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 17:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and it is not a finished project. I am willing to work on it until it is an A article! This is my goal. My goal is not to push a POV. It is to have a great article. I would love help doing so.~ty (talk) 17:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Without any intended offense to Tylas, who clearly has put a lot of effort into the article, but the article seems to have taken a very large step backwards compared to what it originally looked like, in terms of prose and neutrality (there's 4 lines about the DSM-IV, but multiple paragraphs about the theoretical publication DSM-V? Really?). I think a mass revert would probably be in the best interest of the encyclopedia; everything is stored in history so that that well sourced material to MEDRS compliant sources can be added slowly.Yobol (talk) 22:30, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

The idea of WP is to give information. The information there now is far superior to what it was. Let me work on it. Give me suggestions. I will happily fix them. Please read the article and give me things to work on rather than taking it back to the version that honestly - was embarrassing to those who do know about DID. Better yet! Help me fix the the problems you see. Even WLU admits that the old version of the article needed a complete rewrite. I believe his argument is that he wants the controversy to bear the same weight as the mainstream consensus in the field of DID research. By the way - I have hardly touched the section you just refereed to. That is pretty much how it was. I had no problem with that at all. There is a huge amount of work being put into the changes in the DSM 5 right now that are of interest to the field of DID. I can remove all DSM 5 info if people think that is necessary, but I think it would be a mistake.~ty (talk) 22:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a note on my user page from whatamidoing saying what WLU did is not canvassing according to WP rules, so I apologize WLU.~ty (talk) 23:07, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

A revert to the old version and slow editing to retain limited improvements would be a good idea in my opinion. The page portrays the traumagenic position as unapologetically correct and any who disagree to be simply wrong. The lead doesn't even mention the iatrogenic position. There is far too much name dropping. There are semi-headings like "New Era of Better Therapy" and "Life Does Not Begin With A Unified Identity". The page reads about as smoothly as a roller coaster. The page doesn't follow anything close to the MOS or MEDMOS. Citations are included as plain text numbers like and instead of hyperlinked citations. Citations are incomplete. Images are spammed throughout and bear tenuous connections to the text. The section on etiology doesn't mention the primary controversy over DID - whether it is caused by trauma or inappropriate therapeutic techniques. The controversies are ghettoized to a "controversy" section, which is inappropriate per WP:STRUCTURE. Tenuous theories are presented as unabashed facts. The voice is wrong, with statements like "Virtually all we have to direct us..." and "Integration is a confusing term, since we know we do not begin life integrated." Review articles are deprecated in favour of books which are quite one-sided. There is an obvious copyright violation. All of these issues are ones I can glean just from scanning the page, I haven't even given it a thorough read through and I haven't delved into the actual sources (let alone conducted the careful parsing of sources required to determine neutrality). I very much agree with Yobol, the page does need a revert and attention from experienced editors beyond just myself. My attempts to engage and discuss, despite my constant reference to policy, are dismissed with accusations of bias (for instance, that I'm a member of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation), gross misrepresentation of my actions (for instance, another editor leaving me a message is canvassing) and the bizarre nonsequiters. Input from other editors would be greatly appreciated. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 23:44, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I really haven't got beyond that whirling brain thing, which presumably is there to illustrate some concepts in the lede? Rather than just hypnotize the reader... —MistyMorn (talk) 00:02, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Editor Daniel Santos (talk) 22:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC) came and explained to us both how the lede should be. You did not argue a bit with him when he made those suggestions. This was my first contact with him ever, but he appears to be an advanced WP editor who had tried in vain to edit the DID page in the past and was never allowed, I assume by the award he put on my talk page as defender for those who were abused as children. WLU, I have read a vast amount of research the last couple of weeks and not one paper has said that the views are equal. They state the trauma view is considered mainstream, but there is controversy. That is how the lede is arranged per Daniel Santos. I did have quite a bit more in there before that time, but I must agree that he was correct. Simply point out what you view as a violation and I can fix it or you can, but does not mean reverting all the last 1,000 edits or so. In this version there is a huge controversy section, adding things you did not even have on the page about the iatrogenic position. There is even a large section totally on the iatrogenic position. I was interrupted by all this today, but I was adding such to the history as well. The problem with this argument, which you probably know well, is that the average editor does not have a clue what it is we are talking about when it comes to the weight of each argument, but they can go and read the research and see for themselves - which I would love. WLU, you are again playing victim when that is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. You have only allowed those you can micromanage to ever edit that page - or that write what you personally agree with - your POV. There is a very nice editor there on the DID page now who is helping me with WP rules. I am fixing the points WLU said here. All he had to do was mention them on the talk page or fix them instead of reverting all this work back to an old version. I never called him a member of any organization and do not care. My point is that he pushed the iatrogenic POV even though it is not mainstream. I have very much included it in the article, but it is not equal to the trauma view per all the articles I have read - including review articles. I have included both books (which I read many) and reivew articles. No review article is excluded on the page. ] (talk) 00:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The problem with that is that anyone that edits the article WLU runs off. It's not that people have not tried over a great period of time - they are just not able. WLU stepped back and let me, so I did. I have spent the day fixing anything that editors are pointing out. A revert back to the version that no one is allowed to edit would be simply wrong and I hope that is not WP is and it is a version that even WLU says is in need of a rewrite. It is not the better version. I built on the existing version step by step - over 1,000 edits. I did not run off in the dark and make a new page and spring it on everyone. If WLU will work with me instead of reverting every edit, I am quite happy to work with him. ~ty (talk) 02:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry, the present version is not better. Many changes seem to have been made without reference to Misplaced Pages general policies and content/style guidelines. Reverting to the earlier version should pave the way for appropriate incremental improvements with more eyes on the article. —MistyMorn (talk) 08:13, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Tylas has done 2189 edits this year (and 260 before that). It looks like all the edits this year are in connection with Dissociative identity disorder. That might be a sign of a dedicated expert working to improve the encyclopedia, but given the lack of real communication on the article talk page (which looks like a series of "I WONT BE CONTROLLED by you or anyone else"), it is much more likely that the descriptions of problems given above are accurate. The current article has an image with caption "Early experiences with caregivers gradually give rise to a system of thoughts, memories, beliefs, expectations, emotions and behaviors about the self and others." that appears to be WP:OR, and text like "It is imperative to get the right diagnosis so a patient receives correct treatment" is a good indication of advocacy. I support reverting the article to the old version. Improvements should be incremental and based on policies, with collaboration being paramount—any issues must be responded to without digressions about other editors. Johnuniq (talk) 10:07, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Tylas is not a dedicated expert, as she discloses on her talk page she is currently in therapy for DID. If you look in the archives, I have spent a lot of time indicating why I object to specific changes on policy and guideline grounds, and have basically had my concerns dismissed because "I just don't understand DID" . I copied the last stable version to a subpage and have added some text based on a recent review article. I plan on, when I have the time, continuing to update that subpage version based on recent review articles and what improvements Tylas made that are genuine improvements. But it is exhausting to do on my own when my detailed rationales are ignored. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 13:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The article should be reverted to its last stable version in my view. Among other (massive) problems, there are 22 citations in the lede alone. For example, the sentence in the lede, "Dissociative disorders, including DID are often mistaken for various disorders by those that are not trained or educated in trauma psychology." is sourced to a Polish journal article, and two Japanese articles, all of which are primary sources. MathewTownsend (talk) 14:21, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I have referred to this discussion on the DID talk page, suggesting the DID main page be reverted to the last stable version (plus the changes mentioned above, per my sub-page draft). See here. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 14:52, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It's true that people with a medical condition can be experts, and that experts in an area sometimes develop the conditions they are experts in. After all, some people go into a particular field because they have a personal interest in it, and being a cardiologist doesn't make you magically immune from hypertension or cholesterol problems.

But it's also true that patients tend to believe that their personal experience is the sole truth for everyone. People who subjectively feel better if they swallow a dozen pills each day tend to believe that herbal or homeopathic treatments really work, even if it's been proven that the contents of the pills don't matter. People like Tylas, a self-disclosed person with DID, tend to have strong views that what they believe is the cause of their own DID is the cause of everyone's DID. People with multiple chemical sensitivity tend to be angry when anyone points out that most people who say they have MCS actually have treatable anxiety or depression rather than an actual problem with "chemicals".

This is just how the human brain works. With the best will in the world, someone in Tylas' situation is likely to accidentally misread sources in ways that show the source to more strongly support their own personal beliefs than the source actually does.

As for the advice to slow down: Tylas has made 635 edits to the article this month, and claims on the talk page to be editing "slowly - oh so slowly in fact". While it is appropriate advice, I don't think it is going to be heeded. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:42, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

For anyone still interested, the DID page has been reverted to a modified-stable version (actually, several times now). Comments, suggestions and improvements to the current version are welcome, as are comments on the talk page. Numerous improvements and updates still need to be made so experienced contributors would be greatly appreciated. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 16:21, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

My reasoning why this is wrong is written on the DID page under "3 Reverts by WLU" also listed here for your convince.

The problems with this are the usual things you have done on this page WLU.

1. You have now taken total control again. Before this last round of edits which you entirely reverted, I was not allowed even one edit to remain. You did the same with TomCloyd. He was a content expert and knew WP well, yet you still would not allow him to make one edit! (if one or two were allowed, I am sorry, but I think you did full reverts of anything either of us tried to do.) Notice, even a small edit like removing the symptom paranoia resulted in a revert war. You would not allow me even one edit of something that was flat out wrong.
2. You then let FF edit, as long as you could control (micromanaged) her edits. I announced I will not be controlled (micromanaged) by you, and that statement was taken out of context and used on the med page.
3. You cried victim when I started to edit. You cried victim when TomCloyd tried to edit, claiming - again out of context that he called you a psychopath. He said you exhibited psychopathic behavior, which you do. Yet you twisted that to say he was calling you names on the playground and he got banned by the same folks that seem to show up in your favor when you have conflict.
4. Most of those who said anything on the med page are the same that came to your aid to ban TomCloyd. I would think this sort of thing needs to be brought in front of an unbiased crowd instead of you calling forth your buddies to vote your way.
5. Even now you say YOU will put back in my edits that YOU deem good. Also as soon as I started to edit today you reverted the whole thing to a version you were working on in your sandbox. What makes you sole judge? Why can't I and other editors also work on the article? I know many how have tried to edit this page have that same complaint.
6. This article remains a B article and you allow little to no change to it. My goal was/is an A article. Yet, again you stop this process from going forth.~ty (talk) 21:47, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Also the new editor MathewTownsend stated: "As a former believer of the Colin Ross school, then a quick convert to an iatrogenesis model when it came to testifying in court, probably we won't disagree on that point.". We need unbiased editors please to solve this problem. ~ty (talk) 21:42, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, the fact that "believing in the iatrogenic model" means MathewTownsend is too biased to edit the page or for you to work with is pretty much the problem on the DID page. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 22:09, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Not true. I too believe the iatrogenic position, but I also believe the mainstream model and that is the traumatic model. As I have pointed out, even the most current 2012 review in favor of the iatrogenic position says that the trauma model is the model of Conventional Wisdom. Quote from it: "challenge to Conventional Wisdom" I of course believe both models should be presented, but they are far from equal and you would like them to be - this is NOT my opinion - this is simply how it is. I have never, ever read anywhere that they are even close to being equal. ~ty (talk) 22:48, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Also, I did not say MathewTownsend is too biased. I quoted exactly what he said - in the talk where you and he discuss how you will both go about working on the DID page - including using your draft from your sandbox. I am not going to interpret this, others can go there and read for themselves. 22:50, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Agree~ty (talk) 23:58, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I object to WLU's deletion of my comments. This is in violation of Misplaced Pages's talk page guidelines. Either address my points or accept them. WLU's and WAID's comments about Tylas and myself are ad hominem attacks and a violation of Misplaced Pages policy. BitterGrey (talk) 05:01, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

More like address your points or ignore them. Your edit made personal attacks on WLU, inserted text to change the meaning of it within text others had written, and just generally did not belong. You should be lucky it was taken away, as it prevented people from seeing your personal attacks and bad behavior more readily. Keep in mind that a number of edits and reverts he made to DID that Tylas is complaining about would have been made by me other editors there if WLU hadn't gotten there first. He has strong support in general for his actions, and if Tylas isn't getting her way, it's because she doesn't have the same support. Looks above at the number of editors saying Tylas' edits were not appropriate -- seeing that, how can you or her say that what WLU is doing is wrong? Frankly, everything you and Tylas have accused him of (like personal attacks, edit warring, bias, etc.) appears to be behavior that you and Tylas are actually doing quite severely yourselves but are too emotionally attached to judge your own actions clearly. DreamGuy (talk) 22:57, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

DG, the chunk of text I removed from WAID's post was actually hers since I removed the post that she was referring to, note this.

Please let this die. I know from long experience that this will go nowhere, clog up the board and piss everyone else off if anyone continues to engage here. This page is not meant to deal with behavioural issues and nothing is gained by trying. All you will get by posting any replies will be acrimony and it won't help anyone. Please let this archive, it's far, far less work over the long term. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:00, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

DreamGuy, support or retract your accusations that I'm 1)distorting the comments of others and 2) making personal attacks. I'm not the one who deleted the comments of others, WLU is. I'm also not the one who hid the comments of others, with a note deceptively implying that the discussion was moved intact, WLU is. I'm also not the one making ad hominem attacks based on a Wikipedian's sexuality, WLU(...) and WAID(...) are the ones doing that. WLU has been hounding me for over a year, aided by a gang of potentially well-intentioned but grievously mistaken individuals like yourself. Please become aware of the facts before you assist him in driving away more good wikipedians.BitterGrey (talk) 04:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Bittergrey, if you have a problem with certain editors, I'm sure you are aware of the relevant forums for your complaints. If you have a content-based query regarding a medical topic, this is the place to come. While this project talk page accepts posts from folk requesting "more eyes" to a dispute involving editors on medical articles, this is not the place to go into detail or to pursue any resolution. Colin° 07:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Refractory chronic gout

We have a person associated with Savient Pharmaceuticals the manufacturer of Pegloticase which is a new treatment for gout continually recreating the article on refractory chronic gout. My position is that this is little more than a co tract of our current article on gout and thus I merged the two. Discussion has taken place here Talk:Refractory_chronic_gout. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 15:58, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that you mean WP:POVFORK rather than WP:COATRACK. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:36, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Certainly not a WP:COMMONNAME: just five PubMed results for "refractory chronic gout" (two with Pegloticase in the title ). —MistyMorn (talk) 18:47, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree with merge to gout, certainly does seem to be a POV fork. Yobol (talk) 22:33, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Homeopathy

Help would be appreciated on the Homeopathy talk page (currently here, where several editors have been trying to reason for several days with a new SPA, called Alice1818. Thanks, —MistyMorn (talk) 17:26, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I've hid the two most recent sections per an obvious WP:CONSENSUS. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 18:22, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. —MistyMorn (talk) 18:36, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Alice1818 seems to have declared edit war on the hides . —MistyMorn (talk) 19:12, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions invoked, this is probably resolved. WLU (t) (c) Misplaced Pages's rules:/_complex 19:37, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again. —MistyMorn (talk) 19:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

"Cite on Misplaced Pages" tool at National Center for Biotechnology Information website

I am in contact with the National Center for Biotechnology Information (who run web services like PubMed Central) over them providing references in a way that allows for easy copy-pasting into Misplaced Pages articles (similar to what Europeana does or the Biomedical citation maker). Where would be the best place to discuss what Misplaced Pages template formats (e.g. {{Cite web}}, {{Cite journal}}, {{Citation}}, {{Cite book}}) would be best to implement at what NCBI projects? Thanks for any pointers. Please reply at WikiProject NIH. -- Daniel Mietchen - WiR/OS (talk) 04:16, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes User:HB-NCBI is from NCBI and has began collaborating with us. They are open to feedback on changes to pubmed which we feel would make their site better.

I am wondering if we should be looking at vcite or fcite as they are significantly faster. Some of our large pages are very slow to edit.

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 05:07, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think that might actually be a good thing. In a way, it penalizes us when we've based an article on a ridiculously large number of sources, which generally means that we've lost sight of either MEDRS or UNDUE. However, the truth is changing citation types needs article consensus, so in effect tools need to support all types. Of course, citation bot can convert to the article's dominant form anyhow, but how much better to do it right the first time? LeadSongDog come howl! 05:32, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• I think this is a big deal. I would encourage WikiProject Medicine members to consider commenting on this. This could be an entry point for collaboration with major organizations on developing health articles on Misplaced Pages. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:37, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

There are a number of discussions ongoing regarding the use of fcite. For example a discussion regarding deleting it is here

Having been a primary editors of a number of huge topics (see HIV/AIDS and Obesity) there is no way around having 200 references. These are exceedingly controversial topics and if every line was not referenced, references would soon be requested. I strongly support the principle of faster templates. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 15:52, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

On a huge topic like that, you ought to be able to cite a couple of books a dozen times each, rather than a different source for each sentence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:47, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

There are a couple of reasons why I prefer reviews to textbooks. 1) they are typically more uptodate 2) they are typically easier to access 3) my colleagues view them as better / more useful sources Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 16:56, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

You will never produce a comprehensive, balanced or unbiased article on Obesity, for example, by only citing medical journal reviews. And I agree with WhatAmIDoing that big-topic articles should be built on books, not reviews, and never primary studies (though we all agree on that one). But this is off-topic and I agree that our standard citation templates are a dreadful implementation and more complex than just writing the citation. Colin° 07:36, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, wheels rolling at NCBI on this: bring it! Hildabast (talk) 16:18, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
• If they generated citations without templates, it would work fine here and also be useful on any of the thousands of non-Misplaced Pages websites using Mediawiki software in the world. The citation templates work at the English Misplaced Pages, but italics and bold face and so forth work everywhere. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:46, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
• If they can offer two options that would be best. Many editors use the citation templates so unfortunately cite journal is an inevitable requirement. But it should also offer a standard wikitext Vancouver-style citation. I don't know if the PMID XXX magic link works on other wikis, and I tend to use a template to link DOIs (examples at ketogenic diet). Colin° 07:36, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

On a sidenote, I sense it's really interesting to see key organizations like NCBI and the WHO giving this sort of collaborative attention to Misplaced Pages. Imo, it's an indication that they recognize the relevance of Misplaced Pages as a real-world source of biomedical information. That relevance is something that I personally find rather scary, but I'm also beginning to see as a challenge. My feeling is that input like this is a really encouraging sign. The somewhat restricted number of regulars here may have some reason to feel a bit less alone. Just 2 silly sents, —MistyMorn (talk) 17:40, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• If it helps any, I spent a couple of decades in the health consumer movement before I crossed over to working in this kind of major institution. So I'm kinda hoping I can blend in ok & that our institutional support will genuinely be supportive. But yes, you should take it as an encouraging sign. Wouldn't be making a commitment if I didn't believe what you're doing is both important and terrific. Hildabast (talk) 19:01, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

We need to keep distance so that the views of Misplaced Pages medical cleecks do not distort article content dolfrog (talk) 21:25, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

What are "Misplaced Pages medical cleecks"? Everyone will just be summarizing the best available literature.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 00:37, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

If that was always the case there would be no cleecks, why this happens I do not know, it is just an observation over time dolfrog (talk) 04:41, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Clique. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:49, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Please help improve Birth control

Birth control is easy and very important to improve. Please see Talk:Birth control#Reviews on the topic in the Lancet this month through Talk:Birth control#Comparison. 75.166.200.250 (talk) 23:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Ethics of medical publication in educational works from Wikimedia

Members of this WikiProject may be interested in User talk:Jimbo Wales#Ethics of medical publication in educational works from Wikimedia (version of 02:54, 22 July 2012).
—Wavelength (talk) 03:01, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

This is about informed consent for images of people with medical conditions, and appears to be written by a person who assumes that such images (in this case, a penis) are uploaded to Commons by medical professionals rather than by the patients themselves (which is what happened in this case), and who seems to be unaware of the many previous discussions on this subject. If someone's got the links to the previous discussions handy, then that would IMO be a positive contribution to the discussion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:10, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I keep a file of signed consents from patients when they agree to release their images under a CC BY SA. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 02:12, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Endoscopic thoracic sympathectomy‎

Endoscopic thoracic sympathectomy‎ needs eyes again. It's the same POV pusher who wants to make sure everyone's aware that ETS is a deadly surgery with no benefits, despite what the published literature says. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:14, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Fingernails

The new article feedback system has a request about nails for a medical term for very long fingernails. I'm not sure any such term exists. Does anyone know? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:16, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Not that I am aware of. The closest that I can think of is "onychogryphosis". Axl ¤ 08:46, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I also am not aware of a "medical term for very long fingernails." ---My Core Competency is Competency (talk) 12:39, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I am thrilled that this article review tool has gotten so much attention in such a short time - already six comments on fingernail. This is fantastic! Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:34, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Onychogryphosis sounds like a plausible fit for what the person wants and it didn't appear to be in the page, so I added it to ==See also== as an interim measure. Perhaps someone else can figure out how to incorporate it into the text and then mark this feedback as resolved. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:23, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

And we need a picture. I have seen a few good cases but did not photograph them.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 15:16, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Input needed

Hi all. I would appreciate input at the discussion here. The debate is summarised there, but basically an IP editor keeps trying to introduce physical therapist onto the doctor disambiguation page. Discussions have gone against this in the past but the debate needs to be concluded once and for all. Regards Basalisk ⁄_berate 23:03, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

PT's are not know as doctors. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your talk page please reply on mine) 02:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Some of them might be, if they have Doctor of Physical Therapy degrees. After all, even people with degrees in history and fine arts are sometimes addressed as "doctor" on the basis of their academic achievements. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:25, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The point of a DAB page is to lead from what the person searched for to what they person hoped to find. So, at least in the UK, one would not be looking for a physical therapist, dentist or vet if one typed "doctor" in the search box. Colin° 07:30, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Will someone review yesterday's edits

Would someone review this IP's edits yesterday? Should they be reverted? ---My Core Competency is Competency (talk) 13:18, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Looks like ref spamming to me. The website suggests it is from a dermatology book, however, which would nominally make it MEDRS compliant. Yobol (talk) 13:28, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Clear refspam, inserting sources after fairly trivial sourced sentences where the reference is a sentence away or even in the same sentence. Disruptive editing since the citations were in French Misplaced Pages format.Novangelis (talk) 14:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I am going to rollback those edits then. ---My Core Competency is Competency (talk) 14:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Related: Proposed deletion of Fondation René Touraine

The article Fondation René Touraine has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

insufficient third-party coverage.

While all contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Novangelis (talk) 15:31, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Passive smoking

An editor has tagged this article with a NPOV tag and has stated they feel the lead is non-neutral and "shrill". Some input from others on the talk page may be helpful to resolve this dispute. Yobol (talk) 13:09, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

1. EXECUTIVE SUMMARY Policy and Action for Cancer Prevention Food, Nutrition, and Physical Activity. 2010. p. 1. ISBN 978-0-9722522-5-6.
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3. Research, World Cancer Research Fund ; American Institute for Cancer (2007). Policy and action for cancer prevention : food, nutrition, and physical activity : a global perspective. Washington, D.C: American Institute for Cancer Research. p. 150. ISBN 978-0-9722522-4-9.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
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