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Plot Spoiler

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning Plot Spoiler

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nableezy 04:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Plot Spoiler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 26 July long term edit warring without discussion, see below.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Notified of the case by Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) on 6 April 2010

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Plot Spoiler has been, for several months now, repeatedly removing material from the lead of an article without making any comment on the talk page. He has removed this sentence the following times:

1. 28 December 2011

   29 December 2011

2. 30 June 2012
3. 23 July 2012

And then again 26 July. The user has exactly 0 edits to the talk page (see here)

The specific material was first added in June 2011, and discussed on the talk page at the time (see here). The user was directed to that talk page discussion following one of his other reverts, also involving this same sentence (see this edit summary). And there is in fact a discussion on the talk page right now that, among discussing the actual sentence, notes that the editor has yet to make a single comment on the talk page, despite repeated edit-warring. The material was unchallenged between June 2011 and this editors first revert at the end of December 2011. Since then, in what I can only describe as tag-team edit warring, it has been on occasion removed, with not one single editor having discussed its removal prior to my opening a section on the talk page on 23 July. It is unreasonable for people to have to debate the air as a user uses his 1 revert and leaves. At the very least, a restriction requiring the user explain and back up his reverts should be imposed, barring an article or topic ban. nableezy - 04:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Ankh, the material you claim that somebody has "glossed" over is completely irrelevant to the topic of the article. Kindly try to stay on topic here. The use of "several" was discussed on the talk page at the time the material was added, something that you, up until making one glib comment yesterday, and Plot Spolier had never done. nableezy - 13:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

@admins, I am sorry if you have ARBPIA fatigue. I dont know what you would have me do about that, other than not bringing such blatantly disruptive actions as long-term edit-warring and game playing to AE. nableezy - 14:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Yall may be frustrated, but please trust me on this, your frustration pales in comparison to the frustration of people who deal with this crap. Since coming back from my last topic ban, I have done all that I can to correct any missteps I have taken in the past, and I have tried to be as accommodating to the complaints of "the other side" in articles. I have sought out compromise, and there have even been productive discussions with users that I am quite certain despise me, or at least did in the not too distant past. But things like this, if anybody is at all serious about correcting the problems with this topic area, cannot go unanswered. This material was in the article for 6 months, unchallenged, until Plot Spoiler first removed it without making a single comment on the talk page. Once returned it remained for another 6 months before Plot Spoiler, again without a single comment, attempted to remove it once more. At that point AnkhMorpork, who only even saw this article because he checked Nishidani's contributions, shows up to tag in, and, again without making a single comment on the talk page removed the material. After it was returned, AnkhMorpork waits for an opportunity in which the revert rules will favor him. After a revert was performed an an unrelated issue, AnkhMorpork steps in to immediately, once again, remove the material, knowing full well there is not anything near a consensus for such a removal. Two other users (Plot Spoiler and Noon (talk · contribs), neither of whom have said one word on the talk page) join, in true tag-teaming fashion, to expunge this long-standing material, material for which there was a talk page consensus for inclusion when it was first added, and not even a hint of discussion coming out of any one of them up to that point. Yall talk about "GAMING" and "BATTLEGROUND" non-stop. This right here, this is the game. You play it with your pals and systematically remove whatever happens to be on the agenda for the day. No attempt at seeking consensus, no attempt at even discussing the issue or saying, beyond "its POV", what the problem is. Yall want to fix the topic area? Then fix things like this. Thatd be a start at least. Just look at the history of the article, look at the talk page, and tell me how exactly you would have somebody deal with things like this. nableezy - 04:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. And if you want a suggestion on a discretionary sanction that will actually do something to fix most of the "behavioral" issues in the topic area, here's one. Any edit that reverted may not be re-reverted by anyone without a talk page consensus, with the standard BLP exemption. This is the most frustrating thing about the topic area, it plays out like a numbers game. The 1RR did not change the game, it just changed the math. If you want to fix something, change the formula. nableezy - 05:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Plot Spolier, AE is the board used for enforcing arbitration decisions. As you are well aware, the topic area is under discretionary sanctions as a result of an arbitration decision. Your actions violated that arbitration decision, and this nonsense about AE being my personal battleground is just that, nonsense. I have said, several times, that I do not want people who are said to be on "my side" to comment in these cases. I am not responsible for any of the comments in the section below (save for one short reply to NMMNG). You however have continued to disregard the requirement that editors justify their reverts. Days after this request was opened, months after you first attempts at revert-warring without consensus, and you still have yet to make a single comment on the article talk page. You have still yet to make even a token attempt at justifying your repeated reverts. Eluchil404 recommended an admonishment, and if thats how it is decided then fine. But the fact that even after being brought here you continue to refuse to justify your revert makes me believe that stronger action is required. The pattern of behavior of revert-warring without discussion is readily apparent to anybody who even briefly looks at your contributions. A useful exercise for any admin is to count the number of Twinke reverts shown here and compare that to the number of comments on a talk page. You routinely revert-war without so much as saying a word on a talk page. It is unreasonable to allow people to use their 1 revert and vanish into the wind, waiting for the next time to tag back in. That such actions constitute the majority of your contributions in the topic area should not go unanswered. nableezy - 17:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Notified

Discussion concerning Plot Spoiler

Statement by Plot Spoiler

Under no condition does this belong under WP:AE. There are many other methods of recourse he could have pursued, like WP:AN/I. This is just another manifestation of Nableezy using AE as his personal battleground. This is silly and I will only respond at the request of the administrators. Plot Spoiler (talk) 14:57, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Nableezy once again plays the part of the righteous victim when he is in fact the problem. He believes that the louder he screams (by taking more and more cases to AE), the more sympathy he can elicit from the admins... which I expect they can see through. I also request he immediately strike this offensive statement that violates WP:AGF and WP:Attack: "You play it with your pals and systematically remove whatever happens to be on the agenda for the day." He's directly leveling the charge that certain editors are colluding offline to "game the system." That is a very serious charge without any merit whatsoever of course. It is just a part of his delusional fantasies that he's fighting some sort of dastardly cabal. Plot Spoiler (talk) 14:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems clear that Nableezy should have never brought this complaint to AE. AE should be the last stop and not the first stop to resolve issues. There are many other forums he could have used, such as WP:AN/I, but he chose not to. The admins must warn and dissuade Nableezy from continuing to use AE as his personal battleground in which he knows all his counterparts will come and bandwagon with him. If Nableezy sees that AE is effective in aiding his battleground crusade, the admins should be aware that there will only be more and more cases that they will need to adjudicate on this board... and these insanely long threads of bitter acrimony. Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Admins, I respectfully request you enforce WP:AGF and WP:NPA here. @OhioStandard's comments are malicious, false and out totally out of line (e.g. "radical Zionist, territorially expansionist POV"). @OhioStandard, I have barely interacted with you and I have not encountered you on Misplaced Pages for lord knows how long. Your comments about me reveal a lot more about you than they do about me. Please strike your malicious personal attacks against me. I edit far beyond the topic area if you bothered to look at my contributions or user page (User:Plot Spoiler). The same goes for @BaliUltimate's conspiratorial musings. Please close this case as soon as expeditiously possible so we don't have to deal with any more of this battleground nonsense... Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:23, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments by others about the request concerning Plot Spoiler

• Diff 1 and diff 3 removed the sentence "Several UN officials have said that Israel's actions are tantamount to apartheid and ethnic cleansing". This was agreed to be misrepresentative and Nishidani here specified that in fact it referred "two UN human right consultants".

• Diff 2 is of no relevance and seems a 'padding' diff.

• Diff 4 makes the valid point regarding well-poising and the stuffing in the lead of marginal views of two insignificant people to create an unbalanced picture. Currently the lead makes no mention of the EU's view, the UN's view but instead Nableezy is insistent that it specifically contains the view of these two human right consultants that are already mentioned later in the article. Despite my request for balance, he chooses to gloss over that the source he cites also states,"

"Dugard was appointed in 2001 as an unpaid expert by the now-defunct UN Human Rights Commission to investigate only violations by the Israeli side, prompting Israel and the US to dismiss his reports as one-sided." and that "Israel's UN Ambassador in Geneva slammed Dugard's analysis."The common link between al-Qaeda and the Palestinian terrorists is that both intentionally target civilians with the mere purpose to kill,""

Can Nableezy please explain:

1. Why the view of two UN human rights consultants are more lead worthy than the EU's or the official UN view?
2. Does he thinks "several UN officials" accurately describes two human rights consultants?

This is a serious breach in NPOV and an experienced editor should know that inserting sound bytes which mention the words "Israel", "apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing" into the lead of an article should be done in a very careful and balanced way and the presentation of the views of these two human right consultants was hardly that. Ankh.Morpork 11:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• I'd prefer not to waste my time on being drawn into this. But you are making this into a content dispute. It is a behavioural dispute, and (to reply to TCanens) there is specifically a problem in the use of 1R as an entitlement without the burden of doing some work to explain one's behaviour on the relevant section of the talk pages. That is the crux ARBPIA hasn't resolved, and concerns the creation of workable conditions in a work-hostile area. Both Nableezy and I and some others collegially spend a perhaps inordinate amount of time on talk pages (48 edits building that page) endeavouring to find common ground, or justify edits (84 edits). In this case a rapid sequence of reverts by User:Plot Spoiler, User:Noon, User:Brewcrewer took place after you challenged a piece of information in the lead, and I corrected it and named the two distinguished international jurists, John Dugard and Richard Falk, who held that view. Leads summarise sections, and they are in the sections, with others. The rapid mass reversion is commonplace, as is the fact that, save Brewcrewer, none of the reverters has deigned to explain their view on the talk page. This is not collegial. None of you appear to have contributed to the page either. You are all active in reverting on it. So please keep your comments, if any, focused not on the content you dispute, but the behavioural patterns, if any.Nishidani (talk) 13:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

"as is the fact that, save Brewcrewer, none of the reverters has deigned to explain their view on the talk page." False. I did explain my objection on the talk page. And as to your 'content dispute' obfuscation, the sentence in question was patently unbalanced and did not require a treatise to explain why that was the case. Neither of you have explained why your edit was not a gross breach of NPOV and

1. Why you consider the views of two UN human rights consultants are more lead worthy than the EU's or the official UN view?
2. Whether you think "several UN officials" accurately describes two human rights consultants?

Ankh.Morpork 13:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• Am I missing something obvious or does the first diff point to simple removal of unsourced content? I believe that's allowed per WP:V, specifically WP:BURDEN. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:29, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It was sourced in the body of the article, as per WP:LEAD, and when it was restored sources were added to the lead. nableezy - 15:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment by ZScarpia

According to AnkhMorpork, the professors of law and United Nations Special Rapporteurs John Dugard and Richard Falk are insignificant individuals and mere human rights consultants advising the UN rather than individuals with official positions in the UN. A rather swingeing, begrudging assessment I think.     ←   ZScarpia   17:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Not that it's relevant to this AE, or that you didn't bring it up for the sole purpose of mudslinging, but "human rights consultants" is Nishidani's wording , not AnkhMorpork's. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

My response to AnkhMorpork's comment is more relevant than your cynical speculation about my motives.

AnkhMorpork is responsible for the arguments he is presenting here. One of the arguments he/she is presenting is that the Special Rapporteurs (and it's worth reading the Misplaced Pages article) are outside the UN (that is, it is incorrect to call them UN officials) so that, therefore, their opinion has no more value than its being their opinion. Although, in UN parlance, they may not be officials in a constitutional sense, the Rapporteurs are appointed and work for the UN, albeit in an unpaid capacity. They are very much part of the UN. Part of the confusion has arisen because of the use of the word 'independent' in a UN source used in the article. However, what the word 'independent' signifies, as the Misplaced Pages article on Rapporteurs explains, is not that the Rapporteurs are independent of the UN, but that they are independent of the governments of the countries constituting the UN.

    ←   ZScarpia   21:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Did you know that a definition of several explictly states: being more than two but fewer than many in number or kind. That you can continue arguing in this being an accurate description of the two rapporteurs is baffling. What is even more worrying is that this inaccuracy was being used to make highly controversial claims in the lead of an article and several editors chose to restore this edit.Ankh.Morpork 10:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Ankh. As I re-edited all ambiguity was removed. Since the point was stable, removing it required at least a minimal amount of discussion. If you consider that an edit brings controversial claims, normal civil practice is, (a) introduce an edit to balance that claim, a counter-claim (b) take it up on the talk page. Just sequential reverting gets us nowhere, except, unfortunately, to AE. Peremptory reverting without the courtesy of explaining it to editors perplexed by a vague editsummary is not helpful.Nishidani (talk) 11:26, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

And yet you understood the point I was making when I reverted and you set about rectifying it without the need for lengthy discourse. Some edits self-evidently require fixing and the removal of these gross NPOV violations in the lead should not have led to their prompt restoration. Ankh.Morpork 11:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I corrected your objection to (and misapprehension about) it (UN personel) by naming the people as, in fact distinguished jurists in international law, not a bunch of POV-hawks bureaucrats in that disreputable organization. Had you disagreed with me, a word on the talk page was all you needed to do to find me receptive to discussion. Instead 3 different editors blow-in and revert it, without discussion. I think this peremptory, basically silent swooping to drag editors into revert wars is what we need rules for to avoid. Nishidani (talk) 12:03, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

AnkhMorpork, with reference to your response to my last comment, you'll notice that the online dictionary page you linked to actually gives four separate definitions for the word 'several'. I should think Nableezy was using the third definition, separate or distinct, which corresponds with what seems to be the main definition of the word given in my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary. However, on Misplaced Pages it's best to be as precise as possible, so, if we mean two, it would be better to write two. From your point of view, what exactly is controversial? Are you trying to say that the comments by the two Rapporteurs aren't important enough to mention in the Lead? If that's the case, I've seen too many rent-a-bigots' comments being defacated onto articles to give you much sympathy.     ←   ZScarpia   17:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Plot Spoiler wrote something very curious: "The fact that neither you nor your counterparts here can even being to understand why the views of two extremely controversial and dubious UN figureheads should be in the lead clearly demonstrates that. Bear in mind that nobody is trying to excise their statements from the article. It simply doesn't belong in the lead. That simple."
The Lead, of course, is supposed to summarise the contents of the article. Plot Spoiler seems to think that if the body of the article contains a description of comments made by people who he finds disagreeable, that disagreeableness is enough to proscribe mentioning those comments in the Lead. Using weight as an argument for not mentioning the comments might be reasonable, but Plot Spoiler doesn't mention that. In any case, the comments he doesn't like do figure fairly prominently in the body of the article. A second curious feature of what Plot Spoiler wrote is that it shows no awareness that, to successfully make the changes he wants, he would have to engage on the talkpage as requested and argue a case to try and establish a consensus in his favour. Instead, he seems to be driven by a sense of certainty in the correctness of his cause, that certainty making it desirable to ignore all opposition in order to make the necessary changes.
    ←   ZScarpia   01:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

When you say the comments "figure fairly prominently in the body of the article", you mean a whole 3 sentences in the last section. Or in other words, less than a 1/5th of a section that's less than a 1/5th of the article. Fairly prominently indeed. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 02:07, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Then, that being so, you have a legitimate argument to bring to bear on the talkpage in favour of summarising the article differently. But, I think it's obvious, this is a dispute that should have been resolved on the talkpage rather than through edit warring.     ←   ZScarpia   10:38, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Sean.hoyland

No comment on this particular case but I'd like to say something about the admin comments regarding the number of AE reports and ARBPIA3. Compared to the number of events in the topic area that seem to me to violate the sanctions, I think the number of AE reports filed is very low. If you maintain a sufficiently large sample of the articles in the topic area and check them often enough you are pretty much guaranteed to see something AE report worthy everyday. I could have filed plenty of AE reports but it's tedious to prepare them. A large proportion of them would have been against editors who come and go, people who wouldn't be within scope of ARBPIA3. You could indef block everyone who edited an article in the topic area over the past month and it would probably be just as bad next month because there is a seemingly endless supply of people who shouldn't be editing in the topic area + socks (e.g. a quarter of the edits to this article since the end of March are by socks. The topic area is broken but I don't think less AE report filing or having ARBPIA3 would make it better. I don't know what would. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:20, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I want to comment about socks I think new users without 500 non-minor contribs and one year of experience shouldn't edit this area at all or DS area in general.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 19:26, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion, Shrike. Other practical things, any of us could give a list, as I've often suggested to Ed Johnson. One would be IR is not a right. (2)If you use IR you are obliged to add something uncontroversial and constructive to the article and (3) if your revert is questioned, you are obliged to explain it collegially on the talk page. It may look tough on admins, but check any talk page. The amount of work one has to do there is an enormous sacrifice of time better spent actually building this encyclopedia, and those who are writing stuff rather than engaging in unconstructive editwars by people using their revert rights and little else over numerous articles need some practical guidelines to at least make it a level playing field.Nishidani (talk) 19:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Cla68

Here are the relevant "discussions": . I put "discussions" in scare quotes, because none of the editors participating in those discussions or involved in the edit warring appear to have managed any civil, productive discussion on the talk page about that particular line of text. All I see is unhelpful acrimony. Administrators, I think you know what to do. Cla68 (talk) 05:25, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I.e. permaban Nableezy, Nishidani and Tiamut? In link 3, Benwing argued his case fairly, and was answered fairly and civilly. There was no acrimony. On the other there was no 'discussion' because, when two pleas for discussion from the reverters were posted, only one of 4 reverters turned up (excluding Ankh who just repeated a claim/meme about 'well-poisoning' and exited). There was an edge of annoyance that unclear policy and misleading deductions were being raised by just one editor of the four, but you are effectively saying that people requesting that edit disputes be argued on the page, and that those who revert and disappear, actually return to help article construction, are being acrimonious and deserve banning. The one thing some appear to have learnt tactically from the earlier ARBPIA judgement is that the phenomenon of reverting will form the basis for banning people who are actively engaged on several talk pages. That can be gamed by only reverting and then disappearing so that your presence there is otherwise not noticeable when the talk page is reviewed by Admins engaged in arbitration, who will only see dispute, and link reverts to disputatiousness.Nishidani (talk) 08:16, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Benwing argued his case fairly, and you reverted him without participating in the discussion, in what you'd call "tagteaming" if it weren't you and Tiamut doing it.

Then in the next section, other than making accusations, you didn't participate in any meaningful way in the discussion either.

Also, somehow it seems that the fact Huldra reverted (to the version you like) without participating in the discussion either doesn't seem to bother you at all.

Your accusations ring quite hollow. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:07, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it does look evil, doesn't it. As I've always said, you can insinuate anything from diffs, ignoring context. Benwing came in editing out material with edit summaries like damn this article is full of bias, see talk page I restored yes, the deleted text because it contained three RS removed by previous editors, Moshe Ma’oz (no wiki article, but a very strong authority if you are familiar with his background and books), the IDMC and the ICAHD, with the edit summary Restoring improperly deleted RS. No policy motivation in the deletion. Benwing and Tiamut were discussing the issues on the page quite adequately. Where reverters start talking to one another, and do not miss essential points evident to a third party, I generally try as a rule not to intervene, because it can't help but look like swarming the argument. When Benwing, turned up after 9 days silence on the talk page, and remarked that he found my failure to show up 'frustrating', I duly turned up that day to discuss the issues. He disappeared, and the others did not show up. Please examine however who is actually building the page there, as opposed to those who appear to cancel or revert without actually showing up on the page often. That is the gravamen at issue. Hulda's revert restores well sourced information, with a plea that those who cancel it address their points on the talk page. That said, some way has to be found to avoid the mechanical use of 1R without due explanation if challenged. Nishidani (talk) 18:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Nishdani, yes, you've built the page in a certain manner and now you're clearly seeking to WP:OWN it to maintain a certain POV for a very biased article. The fact that neither you nor your counterparts here can even being to understand why the views of two extremely controversial and dubious UN figureheads should be in the lead clearly demonstrates that. Bear in mind that nobody is trying to excise their statements from the article. It simply doesn't belong in the lead. That simple. Plot Spoiler (talk) 18:51, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I won't reply to the 'own'. It's silly. The article is certainly on a touchy issue. But it is one that is widely examined in mainstream newspapers, books and UN reports. First it was immediately up for deletion, and survived. When this happens, what those who dislike it should do is roll up their sleeves, and work on it, using the usual policy grounds. Very little that is bad, poorly sourced or POV-tilted can survive a master editor (which I am not)'s scrutiny. If one has a complaint of structural bias, just sitting and reverting something in the lead is no solution to the complaint, and silent reverting only engenders edit-warring.

(2) When now for the umpteenth time you join others in saying John Dugard and Richard Falk (please read the links) are 'two extremely controversial and dubious UN figureheads,' you should recall that John Dugard got banned under the Internal Security Act in South Africa in 1976 because of the government of the day regard his use of international law as not only 'extremely controversial' but subversive. You don't get to Princeton University (Falk) by being a 'controversible figurehead'. You get there by peer-review working your arse off in your chosen field. Rats, I've missed the opening of the Olympics.Nishidani (talk) 19:31, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Nishidani

Eluchil404. It is surely absolutely out of the question that User:Plot Spoiler be singled out for a ban or suspension type of sanction. I don't read much policy, but the 'discretionary' in discretionary sanctions I've always taken with the emphasis on 'discretion'. A general reminder to all editors, on whatever side, not to abuse the 1R by exercising it as a right devoid of an obligation to join the talk page, and respond to queries, is the maximum I would think any of the plaintiffs here would like to see expressed by admins. Nishidani (talk) 09:44, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I have said, several times, that I do not want people who are said to be on "my side" to comment in these cases

Since this may be doubted, Nableezy has my full permission to send a copy to any administrator of one of the few emails we have exchanged these past months, in which he more or less tells me to fuck off and keep clear of commenting on any AE dispute he is involved in. I probably owe him an apology as well.Nishidani (talk) 17:43, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Im pretty sure Ive said the same on-wiki several times. nableezy - 17:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Seraphimblade. Just a minor note on a nicety. There are a lot of I/P reverts we all do uncontroversally, and I think none of us challenge them because they are patent examples of abusive, mostly one-off IP editing. This note just to refine the point. I don't think anyone here asks that that sort of anonymous POV stuff requires more than an edit summary, rather than a talk page, explanation. Nishidani (talk) 18:45, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Tiamut

Is anyone looking at Plot Spoiler's contribs here? While he has had time to revert twice (once since the opening of this case), and comment here four times, he has not made a single edit to the article talk page. That's part of the reason we end up here. There is no collaboration, only revert warring and then explaining why the revert warring is justified to admins. Also, any honest review of the article history shows that its not those removing material who open discussions, but those who revert to restore. And no discussion by those deleting takes place until after cases are filed here. again, part of the problem. As to NMMNG's allegations of tag teaming, I have made exactly one edit to this article, restoring material deleted Benwing (not the current material under discussion either). Throwing around false accusations isn't very collegial and prevents identification of the root problem. I think Nableezy's suggestion is a good one that might help change the formula. Tiamut 20:15, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I have no issues with your behavior here. You made the first revert, which is fine. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Above, you state differently, but all of that is really beside the point. The text should be retained until a real discussion can take place about whether or not it should be in the lead. It should not be revert warred out and then when editors restore it and open a discussion on the talk page continue to be revert warred out without participating in the discussion. I mean its amazing ... the section on edit warring on talk was opened by Nableezy, commented in by Nishidani and no one else bothered to write a thing there for two days. Random editors just kept popping in to delete the same text again, without explaining why until after this AE was opened. I find that very revealing. I would have restored the text myself, but have been busy and unable to respond to Benwing's comments and did not feel I should intervene on this dispute without addressing his earlier points first. Those restoring the text are doing the right thing. Until a new consensus is forged, the old version stays up, as it did have consensus from a previous discussion. Tiamut 20:57, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Bali

Just a drive by comment. Strategic reverting, coordinated by email, to put the other "side" in the soup for naughty, naughty "reverts" has been taken to an art form in this topic area (by one "side" far more persistently than the other). This is plain as day to anyone who's been paying attention. A new approach is needed, but the senior editors ("admins") are reluctant to take an empirical look at the reality, and craft appropriate, grownup remedies. So what has been going on for years, will continue for years. Account names come and go. The game remains the same.Bali ultimate (talk) 21:06, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, dear. Yes, blade my good man, I have a solution. But you won't like it, and if you did, the rest of Misplaced Pages would not allow it. Evaluate the use of sources, the commitment to representing both majority views of this matter (as reflected by a literature review) and a fair consideration of minority ones. Observe behavior - who is more interested in engaging the literature and higher quality news sources, who relies on marginal ones. Look for patterns of reversions by groups of editors without discussion (as I said, private coordination). And then ding the editors who come up lacking. Completely ignore shows of temper and OMG! 1rr violations in isolation. You're welcome.Bali ultimate (talk) 22:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

What evidence do you have to level such extreme claims that there is some cabal that is using "strategic reverting, coordinated by email"? Please strike those statements which constitute a violation of WP:AGF and WP:Attack. You've heard of a watchlist before, right? Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:42, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Ohiostandard

I used to be quite active in this topic area. I've stopped participating in it largely because of just the kind of aggressive, non-collaborative, anti-consensus-building behaviour Plot Spoiler has (yet again) demonstrated here.

More broadly, the topic area operates like the opposing parties in the historical film, The Gangs of New York. The level of disrespect, contempt, and blatant aggression is utterly ridiculous. In addition, throwaway sock accounts abound: used for only a few days, or intermittently, every few months, they constitute something like 20% of edits in the area. When coupled with the 1rr restriction, that means that the effect of edits by would-be contributors who refuse to sock, like myself, can very easily be negated. In addition, tag-teaming is very much the rule rather than the exception.

If admins are content with the status quo, and are willing to accept the continued domination of the topic area by what are, in effect, partisan gangs who care nothing for the goals of the encyclopaedia itself, and by the very aggressive behaviour Plot Spoiler and friends have demonstrated in this instance, then they should do nothing. The result will be that editors who have greater allegiance to the integrity of the encyclopaedia than to personal "pro" or "anti" POV re the Zionist cause will continue to shun the topic area in the mean time.

Full disclosure: I disapprove of Plot Spoiler extremely, and think the project would be much better off without him, and without similarly zealous partisans: It's my personal opinion that his interest in Misplaced Pages is exclusively in the platform it allows him for promoting a radical Zionist, territorially expansionist POV. It's been my unfailing perception that when it comes down to a decision between the best interests of the encyclopaedia and the best interests of the current Zionist-dominated government of Israel, that he will ALWAYS choose the latter. He was a close confederate of one of our most disruptive editors, now permabanned, thank goodness, Mbz1, and once labeled me as "psychotic", albeit indirectly, for having objected to his efforts to hide the fact that a book depicting Israel as a marvel of entrepreneurial innovation, much against other non-partisan evidence, was written by an extremely active advocate for AIPAC, the Israel Lobby in the United States, often described as one of the top three most powerful in the country. In fairness, I should note that he quickly reverted that "psychotic" characterisation after Ed Johnston noticed it, and warned him that it could result in a block.

If admins want to see the persistent problems in this topic finally resolved, and want to attract editors to it who are actually committed to the goals of project itself, instead of only being interested in the project as a platform to push their own POV, they'll need to exclude editors like Plot Spoiler, who lack one or more of the patience, collaborative ethic, or just the maturity to work collaboratively and respectfully with others of very different political perspective to develop mutually acceptable and balanced presentations of admittedly complex, controversial topics. And some effective measures to exclude day-use and sleeper socks will likewise need to be implemented. Otherwise, it's my opinion that our articles in this topic area will simply function as vehicles for propaganda, as so many of them do, at present.

I conclude this with an expression of my great respect, and my very (!) great appreciation for those of you who've tried for so long to regulate this extremely contentious topic area, and who have used the very limited tools and measures you currently have available to try to exclude the unscrupulous, POV-driven editors who make most of its edits. --OhioStandard (talk) 07:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

PS - Except for admins, if you want to reply, do so in your own section, via an "@Ohiostandard" comment. --OhioStandard (talk) 07:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Result concerning Plot Spoiler

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• Am I the only one who is rather disturbed that the vast majority of AE cases we have recently involves ARBPIA? T. Canens (talk) 05:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

  The thought crossed my mind as well. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

  And me three. I'm not overly fond of the thought of WP:ARBPIA3 turning blue, but if this continues, it might be necessary nonetheless. Seraphimblade 14:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

  • Make me four. And I am sure that the ArbCom itself is probably even less fond of the thought of ARBPIA3. But it is beginning to look kinda inevitable, isn't it? John Carter (talk) 14:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• Nableezy et al, we're not saying you did something wrong by bringing a complaint or discussing it, and we'll address it once we've had a chance to carefully research what's been said. But given the amount of trouble in this area, it does seem some discussion of next steps is needed as well. Seraphimblade 05:14, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
• @Bali ultimate; if you have a solution here, by all means say what it is, but don't snipe at everyone here. That's not helping anything. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:38, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

  That's more or less what I try to do already; that's why I haven't commented on the substance of this issue yet. I want to make sure I get the best solution; I can't guarantee success, but I strive for it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:09, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

• Reading the comments on this request, I notice that quite a few are addressed to the underlying content dispute (i.e what the appropriate wording and placement of the sentence in question might be). Please don't do this. It adds length to the request without adding useful context. AE will not decide the wording of the article lead, it will decide what of any sanctions to hand out to Plot Spoiler and perhaps other editors. On that note, my initial inclination, having reviewed the diffs is not to block but to admonish Plot Spoiler to discuss article wording on Talk pages rather than in edit summaries. Eluchil404 (talk) 07:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

• In order to uphold good focus in this complaint, I suggest that discussion about ARBPIA3 be moved to WP:WPAE or another appropriate venue. After this complaint is dispatched (which I hope will happen soon), more general discussions about long-term strategy will be easier to conduct. AGK 16:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
• I'm not terribly impressed whenever I see a revert-and-run, and in this area it's just gasoline on the fire. I propose that we first, then, offer a crystal clear final warning here—if you revert, you're expected to (preferably without prompting, at the very least upon request) explain why you reverted, be willing to come to the table to discuss what you saw as the problem with the edit, and make a good faith effort toward finding a way to come to a wording that satisfies both sides (or at least to some reasonable extent satisfies both). Slo-mo edit warring combined with refusal to discuss is disruptive, and is grounds for an article or topic ban. That being said, it's expected that all parties involved will negotiate in good faith, and we won't tolerate "I didn't hear that" type behavior, nor veiled (or outright) nastiness. I'm still weighing whether any sanctions beyond that are needed here. Seraphimblade 07:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

GoodDay

Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.

Request concerning GoodDay

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

DJSasso (talk) 18:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

GoodDay (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GoodDay#GoodDay topic-banned from diacritics

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 11:29, 28 July 2012‎ Commenting on on-going diacritics discussions
2. 11:51, 29 July 2012 Creating list of honourees in the fight against diacritics
3. 19:13, 30 July 2012 Adding to list
4. 22:02, 30 July 2012 Adding to list

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

User has a history of trying to push the boundaries of various sanctions they are under to see what they can get away with. They have already been blocked under this arbitration ruling once. The edits above are clearly him trying to cheer-lead those who he feels support his beliefs in the area of diacritics. This only adds to the WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that was part of the problem he has had in the past. Clearly he hasn't understood that he needs to just drop the stick and walk away. -DJSasso (talk) 18:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

• Notification

Discussion concerning GoodDay

Statement by DJSasso

@John Carter: In his last Arb Enforcement Request Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive117#GoodDay it does seem to indicate it applied to his own talk page, so I would take that to mean that it would also apply to his user space. I wouldn't have posted this had he not done essentially the same thing as what he did in his last enforcement request and was blocked for. (same as in it was a comment in his userspace) -DJSasso (talk) 19:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

@Rrius: Actually the Arb decision does specifically cover what he has done. In Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GoodDay#GoodDay_warned it specifically mentions if he continues any of the actions which were stated in the Findings of Fact. Of which engaging in a battleground behaviour is one of them. Clearly he is egging on his "side" of what he perceives as a battle in his comments. That would be continuing to engage in a battleground mentality. As such he is directly acting against the decision that was handed down by the Arbs. -DJSasso (talk) 01:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

@Fut.Perf.: You said "(3) he's now promised to actually heed the restriction". However, he promised both in the last enforcement request and at the original ruling to heed the restriction. What makes this claim any more likely to stick than the last two times he promised. This is a user that is under two different and distinct topic bans, not some innocent editor who made a mistake. He didn't accidentally break his sanctions, this was clearly deliberate. I'd actually support moving this up to amend the original ruling to actually have Arb look at more of his actions. I didn't realize that was an option when I made this request. -DJSasso (talk) 15:53, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by GoodDay

Comments by others about the request concerning GoodDay

• Comment Although I'm familiar with both editors, I'm not really sure where all this "diacritics" debate began. Most likely been going on for a while, but I have neither the time nor the patience to go reading the entire dispute over diacritics. What is the question here is whether or not GoodDay violated the topic ban. Although I never took part in any discussion on this in the past, I disagree with the wording of the topic ban that has been placed on GoodDay. Editors should not be banned from voicing their opinions on talk pages. Banning from editing main article content is one thing, but not from voicing opinions on talk pages, even if that opinion is unpopular or even at times obnoxious. That said however, although I did not take part in the past arbitration discussion that imposed the topic ban on GoodDay, that does not mean that the arbitration findings are not valid. I am, of all things, consistent, or at least I try to be. If a guideline, MOS, or in this case an arbitration finding says "not to do something", then that "something" should not be done, even if I don't agree with them. In this case the first sentence of GoodDay's arbitration ban say "indefinitely prohibited from making any edits concerning diacritics." Those edits he made on his user space seem to be diacritics concerned and appear to violate the ArCom ban. Sorry GoodDay. I would, however, push for a stern warning on this, rather than a block or worse. The fact that "user space" was to be included may not have been completely evident to GoodDay. Suggest adding "user space" to the original ArbCom result. In addition I suggest that DjSasso steer clear from any discussion that GoodDay is involved in, unless GoodDay initiates contact first, such as at an unrelated discussion page, on an unrelated matter. As long as GoodDay continues to abide by the findings of the ArbCom, however--JOJ 19:47, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment I have to agree with DJSasso. "Anywhere on the English Misplaced Pages" indisputably includes User: space — and, in particular, subpages of User:GoodDay. This interpretation was considered necessary in order to prevent GoodDay from continuing to act disruptively on this topic anywhere on Misplaced Pages, including by incitement, proxy, or other indirect means. I realize GoodDay disagrees with, resents, and/or rejects this interpretation of his topic ban, but the clear consensus at the previous AE discussion a month ago went differently — namely, that the ban did cover his "own" spaces — and in the absence of a clear followup ArbCom motion or community consensus saying otherwise, I would consider this to be a settled matter.

It is completely appropriate (and, under the circumstances, not harassment of or a personal attack on GoodDay) for people to question the appropriateness of material such as the last two sections currently in User:GoodDay/My stuff. It seems reasonably clear to me (from examining the recent discussions on the cited pages, together with recent editing by the named editors) that GoodDay is, in fact, continuing to comment (indirectly) on diacritics discussions — a general subject area which he was ordered to avoid completely — and if this is not in fact what GoodDay is doing, he needs to speak to the subject of the inquiry (not to the motives of the person who made the inquiry) and patiently, courteously explain what he did mean and why he believes his comments were not a breach of his topic ban.

I'm sorry to see GoodDay truculently rebuffing DJSasso's calm and friendly attempts to point out that the Simple English Misplaced Pages (which GoodDay was considering moving to) may not be the diacritic-free paradise GoodDay apparently assumed it to be. GoodDay does have the right (per WP:REMOVED) to remove comments from his own talk page, though it is not appropriate for GoodDay to try to change the subject here (in this AE request) by posting ad hominem attacks against DJSasso for filing the request. If GoodDay wants people to discount this AE request as a personal attack against him by DJSasso, he must first argue convincingly that the AE request itself is baseless — something which, as best I can tell so far, he has not even tried to do.

Finally, I think it's appropriate to observe that GoodDay was sanctioned by ArbCom (see here), not out of a desire to impose a specific position on diacritics and suppress any dissent from same, but because GoodDay was found to be pursuing his views on diacritics in a disruptively uncollegial, "battleground" manner. ArbCom warned GoodDay that any "additional violations of Misplaced Pages's conduct policies" — not narrowly related to diacritics, but (as I would interpret it) any continued unwillingness to work collaboratively with others here or to respect their views or contributions — could lead to additional sanctions. I certainly would prefer not to see GoodDay torpedo himself out of spite, but if he simply will not change his approach to this project, I'm afraid that is likely to be the result. — Richwales 20:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Except that the ArbCom result does not say "avoid completely". It says don't change diacriticals and don't "participate in discussions" about them. None of those four diffs shows him doing either of those things. If ArbCom had wanted to say "avoid completely", they could have. They didn't. There is nothing in their ruling that bans general comments in the user space about the thrust of diacritic usage in the project is a bad thing, yet he was blocked over that for week. There is certainly nothing in the ruling that bans stating that he is enjoying reading two talk pages and showing approbation for the efforts of some of the editors there. Frankly, people are stretching the ArbCom ruling beyond what it says and stretching GD comments beyond what they actually say. If people really want the topic banned amended to have the broad sweep people are pretending it already has, they should work to reopen it and make the amendments instead of broadening it through enforcement. What's happening here is frankly unfair and seems rooted in animus toward GD from people who are sick of him rather than a calm, arms-length consideration of what the evidence actually shows he did. -Rrius (talk) 01:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

As an addendum, I wish to say that I have not seen anything at all in DJSasso's recent interactions with GoodDay that I would find uncivil. Calmly mentioning that another project (specifically, the Simple English Misplaced Pages) may not meet GoodDay's idealistic imaginings was not harassment in my view, but common courtesy. And alerting the community to an apparent violation of an ArbCom sanction is certainly not any sort of civility violation (as long as it is done in good faith, which appears to me to be clearly the case here). As I said before, if GoodDay feels this AE request should be dismissed as frivolous, and/or that DJSasso should be sanctioned for generating it, GoodDay first needs to convince people that the concerns about his recent behaviour are unfounded, and then put forth his harassment claim, backing it up with evidence (not simply reiterating it with frustration). — Richwales 21:51, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• If an ArbCom case specifically about you isn't enough to change your ways, I can't see how a lenient sanction would effect much of any change. This sort of sneaky infantile attitude has no place here. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:57, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

  This is a very poor choice of words. I suggest striking them. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:27, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

This enforcement action seems like form over substance. When I saw GD's edit summary referring to DJ's censorship attempts, I thought he was exaggerating. Silly me. We are talking about a six-month ban for such innocuous comments that only someone who had been doing battle with him for years and was looking for an excuse to get him blocked would even guess what the hell he was talking about.

What was the point of the topic ban? IIRC, it was to stop disruptive editing at articles and WikiProjects, and associated talk pages. What difference does it make if GD makes veiled allusions about the topic at his talk page? Editors who can't stand it don't have to have his talk "My stuff"" page in their watchlists. If his talk page were to become an alternative venue for diacritic discussions, there would be some rational basis for action. As it stands, the only people taking any notice of this at all are people who know (or assume they know) what he's referring to and don't agree with him, so what he says will have no effect but to gratify him and annoy people who needn't read what he's saying anyway.

But if people want to be formalist, let's be formalist. Here's what the ArbCom result says: "GoodDay is indefinitely prohibited from making any edits concerning diacritics, or participating in any discussions about the same, anywhere on the English Misplaced Pages." The first part is clearly talking about substantive edits, as opposed to discussions. Otherwise the second part of that sentence would say "including participating in any discussions". This is made clearer by the other sentence: "This includes converting any diacritical mark to its basic glyph on any article or other page, broadly construed, and any edit that adds an unaccented variation of a name or other word as an alternate form to one with diacritics."

Now, what did GoodDay do? First he said, "I'm enjoying reading up on the discussions at those places." That was said below a section header saying, "Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Biographies and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Vietnamese)". That clearly doesn't constitute an edit concerning diacritics in the way the result from ArbCom was written. But was it a discussion of it? It's frankly hard to see that. He not only doesn't mention diacritics, but he avoids even mentioning any particular discussions at those pages. It would be wrong to start blocking people because others read things into innocuous references to talk pages.

The other three diffs deal with additions to that same thread on his talk My stuff page. First he said, "PS: Thumbs up for the efforts of ". Then he adds editors with the two other edits. In none of those edits does he mention diacritics or participate in a discussion about them. Nor does he say what it is about the efforts he approves of, or even what the efforts are. Leaving aside that diacritical marks aren't mentioned, a monologue is not a discussion.

The thrust of the actions involved here is to say he is enjoying two discussions and compliment some of the participating editors. Is that really the basis on which we wish to take drastic enforcement actions? If GD is testing the boundaries, so what? That only matters if he crosses them, and if he has done so here, then Misplaced Pages is truly not what it is supposed to be.

The reality is that GD received the topic ban then was blocked for saying things at his talk page. He was surprised, given the wording, that a one-sided rant, as opposed to actually participating in a discussion was against the topic ban. Frankly, he had a point. If the topic ban was really supposed to sweep so broadly, it should have been more broadly written. Sure, "anywhere on the English Misplaced Pages" is broad, but the wording, especially the implication, of actions banned was not. It reads like he can't make diacritic edits and he can't participate in the discussions about them. It arguably also takes in making his talk page an alternative forum for those discussions to move to.

It does not, however, on its face include a ban on noting his displeasure with the broad thrust of what is happening with diacritics across the project or commenting on the pleasure he is getting from reading other discussions and his appreciation for the unnamed efforts of specific editors. If he had, rather than commenting on his page, given the listed editors barnstars that didn't mention diacritics would he have been brought here? Would he be facing a six-month ban? If so, ArbCom needs to make sure going forward that people can be punished for saying that they are enjoying discussions at talk pages, without mentioning the particular discussions, and showing appreciation for the "efforts" of other editors, without mentioning the efforts or their general thrust of those efforts.

This whole muzzling attempt is squalid, and I hope the administrators who have comment below, and those who come along later, will read what GD actually wrote and think on the implications of taking the sort of action they are currently talking about. -Rrius (talk) 00:49, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The fact that this was on a user page called "My stuff" rather than a talk page of any description makes the case for enforcement even weaker. He clearly wasn't changing diacritics or participating in a discussion since the page in question isn't one where a discussion would take place. I really hope no one who's supported a long block has actually read what GD said. While slipshod, it is certainly better than having full knowledge of this and still thinking his actions conflict with the block. Making veiled comments shouldn't be viewed as "participating in a discussion". Making veiled comments in a place that isn't a forum for discussion certainly shouldn't. Again, if you want to ban him from saying anything in anyway in any place that anyone could possibly view as having something, however distantly, to diacritical marks, then make the ban say that instead of telling him he can't change diacritics and participate in discussions about them. -Rrius (talk) 01:10, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Am I the only one who feels that six months is way too drastic? If GoodDay had actually made "main space" edits or had joined a discussion, that would have been clearly out of bounds of the ArbCom decision, but given the fact that these edits were far from any of that and were clearly meant for his user space only, and may have passed unnoticed if not for the fact that some editors tend to overdramatize the simple, I think that a simple amendment to the original Arbcom ruling would do the trick. And as long as GD abides by that, there shouldn't be any need for a long term punitive block.--JOJ 03:43, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

  I might find it too drastic if not for all the other behavioural issues, some of which I note below. But I think this diff is a good example of the problem. GoodDay is willfully blinding himself to the fact that it is his own actions that have gotten him to this point, not the actions of "bad intentioned editors". I think what we are seeing here is a community that has finally gotten tired of watching him play the victim, watching him always assume bad faith in other editors (several sections of his my stuff page are written in that vein), tired of dealing with his "I didn't hear that" replies to everything, and tired of the battleground behaviour. In some ways, we may have done a disservice by focusing the arbitration case on diacritics rather than his overall behaviour. But the truth is, if we had, he would have been banned already. When he was facing bans in his arbitration case, GoodDay promised he would stay out of the diacritics issue. He didn't. When he was told, in no uncertain terms, after his first breach to stay out of the issue, he said he would. He didn't. So here we are again, and once again, he is promising to stay out of it entirely. Frankly, he won't. He has already shown that he simply can not, or will not, drop the behaviours that have gotten him to this point. Mostly because he simply refuses to look at himself, choosing instead to blame "bad intentioned", "prideful" or "home-country pride" editors. Is six months too drastic? Maybe. But frankly, what else is left to try? Block him for a month, and we'll be right back here in two, I guarantee it. Resolute 13:30, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

  Well when GoodDay continues to be taunted by others, its only natural for him to want to defend himself against personal attacks. He couldn't comment on the threads, so he took the only natural course he felt he had left.--JOJ 20:03, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• I believe "anywhere on the English Misplaced Pages" means "anywhere". And everything we put in user space is supposed to be relevant to development of the encyclopedia (see WP:NOTBLOG) — so material in a user subpage called "my stuff" is properly considered to be related somehow to one's work or interaction here (otherwise it doesn't belong here).

Note, further, that the ArbCom ruling warned GoodDay of substantial additional sanctions "in the event of additional violations of Misplaced Pages's conduct policies" — not exclusively related to diacritics. So, any sort of allegedly nonconstructive conduct on GoodDay's part is fair game in this forum, and IMO it's perfectly appropriate to evaluate current behaviour in light of past (mis)conduct.

Whether GoodDay has exhausted the community's patience (and deserves a lengthy block), or whether he may perhaps be deserving of one more chance (and thus a shorter block) to show that he really can behave, is something the community — many of whom have dealt with GoodDay in far more depth and breadth than I have — will need to decide. But I believe it's perfectly appropriate for this discussion to proceed. — Richwales 03:53, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment by a nobody

It seems many of the commenters have lost their sense of why we are all here and are caught up in some Stanford prison experiment style mentality where they believe it is their duty to beat down those who make any infraction, while losing all perspective of reality. Sure the man made an infraction, but one so small no one would have ever noticed unless they were watching his every move. Not a single article, talk page, project page, etc was affected by his infracting edits, that's how insignificant this is. Yet look at his contributions, he does a large amount of work to create a better encyclopedia (in case you forgot, this is why we are here). His blocking would be detrimental to our cause of building an encyclopedia. Perhaps the complainant should learn how to remove the infractor from his watchlist and as long as the infractor does not edit on diacratics outside of his personal space, or ask others to edit on his behalf from his personal space, let him be, don't take this so seriously y'all. Canadian Spring (talk) 02:05, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Resolute

One of the concerns I raised at one point in the arbitration case was that locking GoodDay out of the diacritics debate could cause him to simply move his issues to other arenas. His sly support of fellow anti-diacritics editors on his /My Stuff page is not something I would have been too concerned about in isolation, though I did also notice it. But his continuing tendencies to foster disputes and edit war, running afoul of WP:POINT, WP:IDHT and WP:TE are simply not going away. He apparently edit warred on some American political articles in mid-July, according to this, and over the last month has fought numerous editors over a little banner at Adam Oates, Joe Sakic, Pavel Bure and Mats Sundin (3-5 reverts on all articles over that period). And after seemingly accepting (with poor grace) that his preferred version was not accepted, attempted to undermine a GA nomination. That led to this exchange at my talk page where I finally reached the end of my rope with GoodDay. I've given him the benefit of the doubt far too often as it is. The truth is, There is no reason not to believe he is going to continue to exhibit battleground behavour as long as he is a Wikipedian. You kick him out of one arena, and he'll just go find another. I am not sure that there are any solutions left that don't involve long-term blocks. Mentoring has failed, short blocks have failed, topic bans have failed. Honestly GoodDay, what is left for us to try? Resolute 03:37, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

If an enforcement to be imposed for the stuff you bring up in that paragraph, it is should be part of the request. The edits in question here are the only basis for deciding whether to punish, and they just aren't enough. They certainly don't rise to the level of the punishment being discussed. What is being discussed here is monstrously unfair. It may well be that behaviour you bring up fits the ArbCom ruling or reopening it or whatever, but the veiled comments certainly do not warrant a six-month ban. -Rrius (talk) 21:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

There is absolutely no reason to not consider overall behaviour when deciding on a sanction here. — Coren  21:44, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Not sure I follow. DJSasso started this enforcement request on the premise that GoodDay violated a sanction and lists a few edit diffs which he claims demonstrate that. That is the only reason why this procedure exists and it should define the scope of what we are discussing here. Rrius claims the evidence given is insufficient to show that Goodday violated the terms of his sanction and therefore there is no ground for any (further) punishment. I see no reason why we should now also, as you state, 'consider overall behaviour'. That is not what this is about, although apparently some would like it to be. It amounts to saying "Well, regardless of the merits of this case while we are here let's see what else we can throw at GoodDay". Really, is that how it works?--Wolbo (talk) 22:28, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

It does seem kind of strange that it would work that way. First it would be "did he violate anything" and if no or insufficient, then we are done and move on. Nothing else would matter at all. If there is no question of his guilt then and only then would you look at past sanctions. But 6 months...my goodness, you'd think he bugged the Watergate building or lied to a grand jury about screwing an intern. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:45, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I certainly find it depressing that the proposed sanction is based on something other than what is alleged. This forum is supposed to be about enforcing Arbitration rulings, yet the question of whether what GD has done actually constitutes a violation requiring enforcement has become secondary, and the arguments that his conduct doesn't actually violate the ruling has been ignored. He didn't edit a diacritic, and he didn't "participate in a discussion about same". Only one admin has responded to that point, and it was with a reference to the irrelevant phrase "anywhere on the English Misplaced Pages". The only sense in which the location of the edit is relevant is with respect to whether posting what he did in a forum that is not a place of discussion constitutes "participating in a discussion".

Yet admins are ready to blithely impose a six-month ban based on "overall behaviour". If some sense of his "overall behaviour" is what he is to be judged on, then that should have been the basis for this enforcement action, with diffs. Instead, admins seem perfectly willing to simply ignore the text of the actual ban to punish him because they think he's an asshole. It is one thing to look at overall behaviour in assessing the punishment after making a rational determination of guilt on the actual conduct alleged, but it is another to just declare him guilty without actually bothering to show how in the hell his conduct actually violates the ban. To show in those four diffs how he edited a diacritic or "participated in a discussion about same".

If people want to impose sanctions for overall behaviour, how is this the right forum? Something like that should be at AN/I or the like. -Rrius (talk) 03:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Overall behaviour is always discussed in these requests. Especially when the overall behaviour is listed in the second part of the sanction against him. The reason I linked directly to the diacritics is that it was the most obvious example and I knew that overall behaviour is always discussed in these sort of discussions so it wasn't necessary to list that section above as well. If it upsets you that its not listed above and wasn't alleged (even though I quite clearly allege it in my comments that were part of the request) I can easily edit my request up at the top, but that seems overly bureaucratic when it is quite the norm to investigate an editors entire conduct when they come to requests like this. His conduct very clearly violates the part of his ruling that tells him to no longer engage in battleground behaviour and that if he does so he could be blocked without warning. To argue that he hasn't violated his sanctions because I only linked to one part of his sanctions is quite a stretch.

And it didn't go to ANI because he was already under Arb Com warning about his overall behaviour so this was the most appropriate venue. That being said, this discussion would likely already be over with him site banned had it gone to ANI, this was by far the less harsh way to take this situation. Considering he is under a topic ban for the British Isles which he violated and was blocked for once and he is under a topic ban for diacritics which he violated once and was blocked for. This being the second time now. That is 4 separate times he was told by the community or the arbs to stop engaging in battleground/disruptive behaviour. ANI tends to crucify editors in those situations. Not to mention editors with two distinct topic bans are often site banned to begin with, he was given mercy in the original arb case when the arbs didn't site ban him. So a 6 month block is a very very light block for someone in his current situation. If two different topic bans and blocks after he violated both of them once didn't give him the clue he needs to just drop the stick and walk away then longer and stronger ones are needed. -DJSasso (talk) 11:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Rrius, most of the arbs commented on this before I submitted my comments, and several continued to focus on what DJSasso brought after (i.e.: Calil). Personally, I am not saying we need to block GoodDay for six months, but I am saying that there are overall patterns of behaviour that need to end. I have tried to impress that on him myself - especially during his arbitration case - without success. If we can find a way to stop that behaviour without a long block, I'm all ears. Resolute 12:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment by MakeSense64

I have been watching this saga from a distance. First of all I would like to say that I learned something new here: the mere act of posting a wikilink to a discussion I enjoy reading, now makes me a "participant in that discussion". I didn't know that. I am already looking forward to the next great "invention".
More generally on what is going on here. I don't know GoodDay very well, but from what I have seen he may well be the type of person who does not have the arguing skills that some of us have, who doesn't know by head which policies to quote, and who has the heart on the tongue, as we say. It's not an art to "needle" such people with minor annoyances until they are angered and have an outburst and violate some "rules" of civility or other. So, such "rules" are very nice in theory, but basically all they lead to is a flourishing culture of passive aggressive tactics, which wp is now full with. Some people cannot deal with such tactics very well, they feel they are being wronged but they cannot argue their case, and let their heart speak. You can then proceed to get that person sanctioned on the basis of some written rules. Wunderbar! But rare is the judge who also takes a proper look in all the "needling" that has been going on before the problems started.
It is wikipedia's failure if it cannot find a way to let such people perform a useful function, if they want to. GoodDay has been mostly gnoming and is listed as one of the 400 most active wikipedians. So what we see here is basically this scene: the most active gnome in the community has been fitted a straightjacket, and now they are even trying to fit him a gag ball. Well, our admins can be proud of that. Let's wish them good luck in their ivory towers.
In the middle ages we were more advanced. This type of people was allowed to take the role of clowns, they would do small jobs around the castle and they were the only ones who could directly criticize the king and the ministers, point out when they were without clothes, or let the population know about all the little corruptions and things like that. They were not silenced, and they were respected. Now we are "much more evolved", of course... Be well MakeSense64 (talk) 06:16, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Response to Courcelles

The issue is not "anywhere on the English Misplaced Pages", but with whether what this enforcement request is based on violates what he was banned from doing "anywhere on the English Misplaced Pages". If you intended to include edits that don't involve edits to diacritics and don't involve discussion of them, then you did a poor job of drafting. The actual wording of the ban should give the editor a clear understanding of the conduct that will result in punishment. The text of the ban does not give adequate warning that vague comments saying he is enjoying reading two discussions will fall within the ban. Imposing a six month ban for the actual edits involved here is so far beyond reasonable that it is hard to believe you people are actually considering it. -Rrius (talk) 21:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment by A Quest for Knowledge

GoodDay obviously violated his topic ban; that is not in dispute. It is also clear that GoodDay did not help himself with his opening comments. Why it's taking so long for GoodDay to understand what a topic ban is, I don't know. But I think that Canadian Spring makes some excellent points. In getting caught up in enforcing the rules, it's easy to forget why we're all here: creating an encyclopedia. As Canadian Spring points out, GoodDay's violations were so inconsequential that nobody would have ever noticed if they weren't astutely following his contributions. A 6 month ban is far too excessive. A 1 month ban seems more than enough for a first-time violation. Subsequent offenses can dealt with more harshly. Further offenses can be dealt with more harshly. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)