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Revision as of 22:00, 3 August 2012

	Georg Solti is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 25, 2012.
Article milestones Date Process Result March 9, 2012 Peer review Reviewed March 22, 2012 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article

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Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Musicians This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians (assessed as Mid-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Chicago Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chicago, which aims to improve all articles or pages related to Chicago or the Chicago metropolitan area.ChicagoWikipedia:WikiProject ChicagoTemplate:WikiProject ChicagoChicago Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Classical music This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Hungary Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hungary, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hungary on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HungaryWikipedia:WikiProject HungaryTemplate:WikiProject HungaryHungary Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Illinois Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Illinois, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Illinois on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IllinoisWikipedia:WikiProject IllinoisTemplate:WikiProject IllinoisWikiProject Illinois Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

György Stern or György Solti??

We say his original surname was both Stern and Solti. Which is it?? JackofOz 06:02, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Question has been answered. He was born Stern, and his father changed the family name to Solti. Fixed. JackofOz 02:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Awards' important omission

What is that sole mention of "one" Grammy in "Awards and Recognitions". It is a very well known fact that he is the most awarded person in Grammy's history (38). So, that has to stand out in that section. Nazroon 12:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Chicago Symphony

The paragraph under "Chicago Symphony", discussing the rise of the ensemble on the world stage is wildly subjective and, I think, an inaccurate portrayal of Solti's contributions. Reiner was brilliant and talented but – in terms of making the orchestra a household name – he was mostly the primer for Solti to step in and push the group to the fame it achieved. The paragraph should be rewritten or deleted.
Mad Bunny 03:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Wannabee poets

Who on earth wrote this line: "According to his last wish, Solti rests in Hungarian soil."? Rests?! I have edited out this ridiculous faux-poetic line. 193.1.104.2 (talk) 13:59, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I see this page is protected. The faux-poetry is here to stay! I think I'll get sick on my keyboard. 193.1.104.2 (talk) 14:00, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Eight years the elder of the children?

What means the phrase "eight years the elder of the children"?

Teréz Stern was from a musical family, and encouraged her daughter Lilly, eight years the elder of the children, to sing, and György to accompany her at the piano.

Which children? Isn't the daughter one of the children?

Rammer (talk) 16:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Infobox

The infobox which I added earlier today was just removed, with the edit summary "restore based on pre-existing instructions. Today is not the day to start an edit war". Both the supposed instruction (since when did Misplaced Pages operate by instructions?) and the reference to an edit war are bogus. The infobox should be restored. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

There are several sections discussing infoboxes at the WP:CM talk page and the edit wars involving them on several articles in which you were involved. I understand your viewpoint is to take a hard line on this but can you just wait until tomorrow to do start this dispute again? The page passed all of the FA reviews without the infobox. Thanks.DavidRF (talk) 21:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Nothing in those discussions or elsewhere warrants or supports your supposed instruction. From the box at the top of this page (my emboldening): "Georg Solti is a featured article; it... has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"instructions": I suspect that DavidRF was struggling to find the right phrase in the flutter of required edits to combat vandalism.

ad procedere: I am under the impression that it is good form to suggest substantial changes to featured articles in the talk pages first and seek other editors' opinions; a trouting might be in order.

ad rem: the article reached featured status without an infobox. I'm sure the various editors considered it and decided not to have one. It doesn't improve the article and confuses the reader: was he really born "György Stern" or rather "Stern György"? Stating his place of birth as Buda, Budapest, Hungary is a) WP:OVERLINK; b) somewhat misleading (Hungary in 1912?). The infobox states his nationality as Hungarian; doesn't that oversimplify things? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

And once agai I ask, why is it only classical musicians who seem to have such problems, yet the majority of other bibliographies don't? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Your ad procedere impression is fallacious; there is no such requirement in any Misplaced Pages policy; indeed, polices state the contrary. You or anyone else are of course at liberty to edit the infobox. The points you mention do not require its removal. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:29, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

There was a comment at the top of the file which said "please do not add an infobox, per Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Classical music#Biographical_infoboxes" and you chose to add an infobox and remove the comment without discussion. That was what I meant. But come on, you know very well this infobox issue has been a contentious one. You yourself have actively participated in those discussions.DavidRF (talk) 03:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I know very well, as should you, that no such instruction is applicable. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:29, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, the opening sentence of the guideline to which that link refers is (my emboldening) "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article.". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:07, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. That's the impasse. A discussion was had and a consensus was reached and you don't think it applies because it either outstepped its bounds or it was the wrong group of editors having the discussion to begin with. So you proceed pretending to be ignorant that the discussion ever took place. Whatever. I understand there are tactics involved in these disputes sometimes. Its off the main page now... so go ahead and re-open the dispute again if you'd like.DavidRF (talk) 19:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

You appear to have a memory that is defective, or perhaps selective. The discussion that was had, with which I am very familiar, was the RfC initiated by your project, which concluded with the findings including: "WikiProjects are free to publish guidelines and recommendations but do not have the authority to override a local consensus on the talk page of an article" and "Infoboxes are not to be added nor removed systematically from articles. Such actions would be considered disruptive". There was nothing in that RfC which allows the instruction to which you earlier referred. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I support infoboxes in articles; over the last few days on Ian Flemming: "... the function of an infobox; it serves as a précis of the article. The vast majority of visitors to any article do not read the article. People are looking for a fact and the obvious ones are what belong in the box. This is also why articles have a TOC; so people can skip right to "Works", for example. I know, you want them to all read the page. But that's not realistic. People browse the web, they skim, and when something catches their interest, then they might buckle down and read teh brilliant prose." Br'er Rabbit (talk) 16:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

To reduce the life of an individual to a handful of bullet points is not distilling, it is dumbing down. Nothing more. There is no requirement to have an infobox on any page, but they do serve a very good purpose from time to time: summarising eighty-four years of a full and interesting life is not one of those times. - SchroCat (^ • @) 20:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Then please raise an RFC to prohibit infoboxes on Misplaced Pages biographies. Good luck with that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Why? You've already quoted MOS:INFOBOX already, but perhaps I could swap the emphasis just for a second: "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article". It's not required. An entire article does not have to be read to find out the key information - flick the eyes a few inches to the left and it's all in the lead. There are two sides to this and I know it's entirely a matter of opinion. - SchroCat (^ • @) 21:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I was suggesting that you put your assertion that "To reduce the life of an individual to a handful of bullet points is not distilling, it is dumbing down. Nothing more." to the test. And no, not all the information that was in the infobox I added was in the lede. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I support the use of an Infobox for this one and I don not understand where the problem is. dozes of thousands of biographies have infoboxes to jhelp readers to have a quick look on the person's birth/death data and profession. we should treat Misplaced Pages as a single book where similar rules apply for all pages. In my opinion biographies need infoboxes. Not everyone wants to read the entire article to get some basic information about the person discussed on the article. -- Magioladitis (talk) 20:29, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not in favour of an infobox and Oppose its insertion within the article. It offers nothing other than repetitive, misleading, and redundant information. -- Cassianto 22:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

FWIW, both SchroCat and Cassianto followed me to this discussion from a similar one on Talk:Ian Fleming where they are zealously seeking the removal of the infobox there. It is not appropriate for this war to be fought article by article, which is disruptive. Infoboxes appear on the vast majority of well developed articles and are a de facto standard. Those seeking their removal should attempt to get a site wide consensus on the issue before disrupting individual or classes of articles. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 00:41, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

You're completely right, but to be fair, in this case the infobox wasn't there in the first place. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 03:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it was, until it was removed per an essay. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 11:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I think there was consensus that the infobox {{Infobox musical artist}} was inappropriate for classical musicians ("Associated acts"?); see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Musicians/Infobox. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Consensus where? The |associated_acts= parameter was not used in this instance. Your edit summary for that comment was "Template:Infobox musical artist is not recommended, that's why it was removed." i) Not recommended by whom; and with what authority? ii) That was not the reason given for the removal of the infobox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Musicians/Infobox. "associated acts" was used: here, just before the template's removal. I thought my edit summary was an adequate condensation of what I wrote; as for the use of the term "recommendation": see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Musicians/Infobox. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:47, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

That's an edit from November 2007. As has been established, project recommendations such as the one you cite carry no special weight; it certainly does not validate an instruction in this article. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

"Those seeking their removal should attempt to get a site wide consensus on the issue before disrupting individual or classes of articles." – which invites the, in this case, more applicable contredit: "Those seeking their addition should attempt to get a site wide consensus on the issue before disrupting individual or classes of articles." I can't understand how it is argued here that "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article" is supposed to support only the addition of infoboxes; surely, it also supports that articles remain without them. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:38, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Infoboxes enjoy site wide support as demonstrated by their millions. The onus is always on those who would deviated from site norms. nb: I've seen the essay this wikiproject wrote after forming their WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. It's not determinative. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 11:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Infoboxes are opposed by several projects and many editors. I find it a jaw-dropping leap of logic to twist MOS:INFOBOX ("The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article.") to mean that adding infoboxes would not require consensus, only their removal would. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject's essays are quite ignorable when they're at odds with wider consensus. And actual guidelines are descriptive so when they are at odds with ambient practise they're simply out-of-date guidelines. There are millions of infoboxes and easily hundreds added to articles each day. Too many participants seek to retard progress :/ Br'er Rabbit (talk) 18:25, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Imposing this rationale on the day an article is on the main page displays, imo, scarce human regard for the hard work and morale of contributors have got it to stable FA status. I seem to have seen this sort of untimely and demoralizing intervention somewhere before. —MistyMorn (talk) 00:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, as the most frequent toiler in this particular vineyard, to come late to the table (being away from internet access for most of July). I can't deny that MistyMorn's point about grinding down willing contributors struck a chord. I am moreover not clear what the gravamen of the complaint is: there has long been a consensus among those who work on articles in this category that they ought not to have info-boxes, a consensus that was revisited at a Request for Discussion about the Richard D'Oyly Carte article not long ago. If the suggestion this time is that the consensus is wrong, it still remains a consensus. And, as can be seen, a dozen or so editors reviewed this article at PR and FAC stage and the absence of an info-box was simply not an issue, any more than it was for the ten or so other musical FAs with which I have had the honour to be associated in the past few years. – Tim riley (talk) 16:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Tim, I note your edit summary for the above was one size fits all? To me, that's a reference to the ambient norm on millions of articles: Misplaced Pages has infoboxes. Full stop. It is inappropriate for a specific group to dig in their heels over anomalous views. Those views are simply expressions of a LOCALCONSENSUS. I see this all the time on many issues. People get wilful about all manner of things. Much of it stems from taking a wiki-view that is somehow "local", such as a focus on a specific topic area. I take a site wide view of things and edit a wide range of topics. The last half dozen articles I've edited are: Aries (constellation), Arnold Schwarzenegger filmography, Iapetus (moon), 1966 Daytona 500, Fridtjof Nansen, and Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre. (TechTip: the seventh prior was this edit to Maya Angelou which shows how to nest {{quote box}} for multiple quotes in the same box.)

Infoboxes are part of the site's design. They are to serve readers who are looking for a précis, who are surfing. Seeking to exclude the infobox is akin to wanting some other part of the MediaWiki interface gone, such as the wiki-globe. It would be better to view the infobox as a sibling to the column of stuff to the left of the article. Br'er Rabbit (talk) 16:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

That's a perfectly honourable view, but as for present purposes we have a continuing consensus I am happy to go along with it. I am at present working on a series of articles where info-boxes are the norm, and I shall naturally respect that. Respect all round should be the watchword! Tim riley (talk) 17:29, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

No, no, no. This sort of attitude probably runs second only to Stupid Nationalist/Political Quarrels for generating unnecessary grievances in Misplaced Pages over the past few years. Clever, well-intentioned people (with, perhaps, a little too much time on their hands) get together at some obscure MOS page, or the RSN, or some other low-traffic process page inhabited by a small, somewhat cliqueish group of regulars, and in good faith, devise what seem to be an excellent set of universal principles for hyphenation, or template name capitalization, or whatever. Alas, efforts to implement this new rule, after humming along for a bit, suddenly run into a set of recalcitrant editors; perhaps even more than were involved in the original construction of the new rule. How can they get in the way of such an obvious and useful principle?

Fortunately, there's a playbook for this. Start small, with a few articles. Be scrupulously polite, but unyielding: the consensus has already been established. It's too late to argue against it. Project the image of yourself as a cosmopolitan, omnicompetent fox; your opponents, poor chaps, are narrow-minded provincials who were goobering around writing actual article content when they could have spent three weeks debating the Harvard comma off in Misplaced Pages-space like real sophisticates. Better they just give in; what's done is done, and militating against consensus could be disruptive, which is an unhealthy thing to be here. They don't want to be disruptive, do they? Of course not.

Usually, someone eventually cracks under these tactics. Persistence is your friend, here. You really, really want those silly people to see the light and acknowledge how wise, clever and useful your new rule is, while your opponents are distracted by thoughts of writing an article, probably on some boring subject that no one cares about. When they finally do cave, rush in and apply your rule to the article. It will serve as a useful precedent when the Committee for the Suppression of Heterodoxy moves on to its next victim job. Look! These people saw reason! Be like them.

TL;DR: Misplaced Pages is big. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to Misplaced Pages. The set of all principles that are really universally applicable to Misplaced Pages is correspondingly small, so good luck getting explicit, rather than implicit consensus for your new universal rule. There are ways to generate the illusion of consensus and foist bold changes on others, but use them sparingly, if at all; they're corrosive. Choess (talk) 05:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

"consensus among those who work on articles in this category". We have a policy for this. Please see WP:OWN. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

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