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What's the point of this thread: Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Language#Why_do_Europeans_speak_American_so_poorly.3F?????

Shouldn't joke threads be removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.9.110.244 (talk) 12:08, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The OP asked a question that cannot be definitively answered, so the inevitable debate ensues, and the deliberately inflammatory wording gives the OP his opening to berate other editors for not understanding his "irony". Classic troll behaviour. 112.215.36.179 (talk) 02:09, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

At the very least seems to be a WP:Point violation. Personally I would have hatted it when I first saw this a few dasy ago but the question seemed to somewhat evolve in to partially useful discussion and hatting something with so many responses tends to be a good way to ensure a lot of IMO unnecessary discussion. Nil Einne (talk) 00:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Medical advice?

I had deleted this question because it sure looks like someone trying to get a prognosis, which of course would not be allowed. However, I guess this is theoretically actually not a request for a prognosis, because the OP doesn't mention who the specific patient is? I think it's unlikely that the OP doesn't have a specific person in mind, but without any evidence of that, I guess the wording is such that it sidesteps the medical advice guideline? Red Act (talk) 00:21, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I should have mentioned that I undid my delete of the question, because I wasn't sure if it was allowed or not. Red Act (talk)

You're certainly allowed to, but in this case I think you were mistaken; the question is about modes of therapy and not about a personal situation, so it's okay to answer (as others have). That being said, you were obviously acting in good faith, which is the important bit. Matt Deres (talk) 04:44, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I meant I wasn't sure if the question was allowed, i.e., I wasn't sure if the question counted as requesting a prognosis and treatment advice, not that I wasn't sure if deleting the question (leaving the title and adding {{rd-deleted}}) was allowed. Red Act (talk) 12:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I have hatted this explicit request for medical advice posted by a user with an oddly sophisticated account for a newbie: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#Foul_smell_from_mouth μηδείς (talk) 18:57, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The OP's mistake in this case was to refer to one of his friends, thereby making it a request for a diagnosis. If he had left it in the realm of the hypothetical, i.e. by just saying "what are some possible reasons and cures for bad breath", the discussion would not have been closed down. Pity. --Viennese Waltz 19:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Obama-Biden question on Humanities desk

What guideline was the Obama-Biden question on the Humanities desk breaking? The question clearly asked if it was a "known fact" that Obama would choose Biden as his running mate for the upcoming election. It's a yes or no question. No opinion was requested. No prediction was requested. The request was for a state of affairs right now and as such, there should be (and is) a concrete answer. Dismas| 01:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the question is answerable without voicing an opinion or starting a debate. However, I don't think the Ref Desk Irregulars have that kind of discipline (and I include myself in the "undisciplined" group). That's not a reason for removing the question though, especially when it has been answered with an appropriate cite. Bielle (talk) 02:02, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, a perfectly valid Q. StuRat (talk) 02:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

"The reference desk does not answer requests for opinions or predictions about future events. Do not start a debate; please seek an internet forum instead." μηδείς (talk) 03:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

For instance, have there been any confirmations of "Obama-Biden 2012" campaign buttons/T-shirts/posters being created by the Obama campaign yet. Medeis, this is a very clear, factual question, that does not require or ask for any prediction of the future. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:01, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

(ec) The header was imprecisely worded (as so many of our headers are). It's impossible for something that hasn't occurred yet to be a "fact" (it's not even a fact that the Olympics will start next week or that there'll be a presidential election in November), so the only way anyone would know for sure about this matter would be if there has already been some statement about it, thus making it about the past, not the future. The meat of the question was indeed about the past: "Have there been any confirmations of ...". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 04:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The question can be answered terribly factually. I don't know why this is an issue. Obama has not yet formally announced the running mate that I have seen, but there has been basically no talk of it being anyone other than Biden, and Obama's campaign store is selling Obama–Biden 2012 lawn signs and other such things. So that seems like a pretty good indication of the intentions, here. What's futuristic about that? What's an opinion about that? Where's the long and drawn-out debate we are trying to avoid? Heck, even if we said, it's possible that he could change the VP slot up until such-and-such date, or the convention could do it differently, or whatever, that's still well within the purview of the Ref Desk. I fear this falls under the common trap of "I don't know the answer, I assume nobody knows the answer". --Mr.98 (talk) 11:20, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The hatting seems to have been a response to the future tense used in the confused header ("Is it Known for a Fact that Obama Will Pick Biden for VP Again?"), but as 2 people pointed out above, the real question was not seeking an opinion about the future but wanting to know whether a decision has already been made. Maybe if we were being bone-crunchingly pedantic, we'd have to say there's room for doubt, but we're not like that. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 11:41, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

If there was even the vaguest hint that the sitting President was considering having a different VP nominee (which hasn't happened since FDR's presidency), the media would be all over it. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:21, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Hatting of Boat Pumps question

User:Looie496 hatted this question on the miscellaneous desk on the basis that "we shouldn't give people advice on how to do stupid and dangerous things". I disagree that that is a valid rationale for closing this thread. Is there a consensus that this type of question ought to be closed? 203.27.72.5 (talk) 05:24, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Do you disagree about it being stupid and dangerous, or think that it's okay to give advice about stupid and dangerous things? Looie496 (talk) 05:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I have no opinion as to whether it was stupid and dangerous. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 06:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The Guidelines say: "The reference desk is not censored. No subject per se is off limits." But:

• (a) how likely is it that we could find any sort of reference for this type of question?
• (b) nobody is forced to engage the OP at all.

We do have exclusions for medical and legal advice. Maybe we should consider extending the exclusions to questions that prima facie appear to pose risks to life and limb. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 06:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Or perhaps we could remember that this is a reference desk, and that providing answers that are inherently un-referencable is a violation of the purpose here - IE, stop making things up and laughing like teenagers about how funny your made up stuff is. Hipocrite (talk) 12:34, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

We have always had a de facto policy against answering questions where a wrong answer could put a person at risk. That's pretty much a matter of necessity: if the Reference desks start sending people to the hospital (or worse), the WMF would have no choice but to shut them down. Looie496 (talk) 17:00, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any de facto policy against answering questions where a wrong answer could put a person at risk. The RDs have given advice on firing flare guns at people, unknown mushrooms, ear clapping, jumping from a speeding train, testing an electric fence and leg stab just to name a few. 101.173.213.78 (talk) 18:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, well, we all know that it's very difficult to maintain any sort of consistent policy here, and it isn't too surprising that by going back 6 years you can find a few counterexamples. Looie496 (talk) 19:19, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The fact is that we've gone to the trouble of putting various things into our guidelines, but at this stage there's no mention of the above sorts of examples. It's currently down to the morality and conscience of individuals as to whether they get involved in answers to such questions. We've had people come along and ask for ways to help them commit suicide, and some editors have seen fit to helpfully provide advice (admittedly this was not recently). I'm not aware of any "de facto" policy against answering questions where a wrong answer could put a person at risk. But I'd certainly support a de jure policy (to the extent that our guidelines are enforceable) prohibiting answers that make it easier for someone to harm themselves or others. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 19:35, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

While I would probably not support such a de jure policy, I would still like to see a proposal to change the guidelines to that effect so that we can get some clarity on this issue. 101.172.42.150 (talk) 09:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Also from memory most of those examples appeared to be hypothetical/out of interest discussions, except perhaps the unknown mushrooms one. It's clear in the example deleted above, it's not a hypothetical discussion. Nil Einne (talk) 04:55, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

If we were to refuse to make assessments of danger because we assess that it would be dangerous for us to do so, I see a slight logical problem with that.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

• Since this is coming up again below in more farcical form , I'll note the two big scraps I recall from the past: 1) My college prof says we have to distil the active ingredient from one of our own prescription meds and mine is OxyContin. What solvent do I need to separate out that whatchacallit, hydromorphine, heroin? 2) I want to hang this big sign overtop the main street where we're having our town festival so people can walk under it, how thick of a wire should I use? These both to me seemed like obvious "figure out yer own drugz" and "talk to a professional engineer" but resulted in huge angst. Both in my opinion were just plain dangerous questions, as the specific and obvious answers to the very narrow questions ignored the wider implications. Ideally everyone would just assess this sort of thing carefully and decline to respond, but competition to be among the top responders to any and all posts works very much against that end. Franamax (talk) 04:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

To see egotistical competition is a bit cynical. I see goodwill, eagerness, and caffeine.  Card Zero  (talk) 21:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Deleted troll question

I deleted a daft troll question and one associated response. --Viennese Waltz 12:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Inappropriate behavior by Looie496

See here: ].

• There is no rule about the max. number of questions/day, ASAIK.
• The comment should have be posted on my talk page.
• I am asking less than the number of questions that he suggested I should limit myself. See here: Special:Contributions/OsmanRF34
• Questions are also a contribution to a RD. They keep it alive.
• He is free of not answering any question (I suppose WK does not keep him as a slave somewhere). OsmanRF34 (talk) 17:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

He asked you politely to ask less questions. It's not exactly inappropriate behaviour. Incidently, if you have a problem with another editor's conduct this is not really the appropriate place to bring it up. Taking it to WP:AN/I would make more sense, but I am not recommending doing that for something this inconsequential. The better course of action would just be to ignore his suggestions if you don't like them. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 21:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree entirely with Looie, whose request was far too politely put. We seem to have an awful lot of nonsense questions by serial questioners recently. I am all for limiting users to one question per day. μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with the last sentence. We'd happily answer 100 questions a day if they were all from different editors. We wouldn't put them into some sort of queue, or have a booking system. As long as they were all valid questions, we'd answer all of them. What possible difference would it make if 3 of the 100 happened to be from the same person? Now, there's an argument that anyone who asks a lot of questions all at once is trolling. But if each of their questions viewed in isolation was perfectly appropriate, they don't become less appropriate simply because they were all asked on the same day. Once we impose an arbitrary limit, we could then exclude a second question asked at 11:55pm, but would have no objections to the same question asked ten minutes later at 12:05 am. If trolling is the issue, we deal with it by considering the merits of the question and/or the manner in which it was asked, not by imposing daily limits. Trolls will still be trolls even if they can come here only once a day. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 22:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Please name one user who posts more than 3 questions a day who you don't think is trolling. We've got several recent users whose half dozen questions a day don't even rise to the level of coherence, let alone that of seriousness. μηδείς (talk) 22:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

If the people posting too many questions are trolls, they can be dealt with as trolls, without introducing a new rule. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:01, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

That's right. I've asked many, many questions on the ref desks, and have sometimes asked two the same day. I don't think I've ever asked more than two in a day, but I'd like the freedom to do that, without being subject to an arbitrary rule. Such a rule would not even have the claimed effect of reducing troll activity, but it could potentially adversely impinge on legitimate questioners. The proposed solution is wrong in principle. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 01:20, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think OsmanRF34 is anything like a troll, but he has been asking questions that he doesn't really need to know the answers to, and at what I perceive to be increasing rates. That's a trend that in my experience often ends badly, and I was hoping that a gentle nudge might be enough to keep it from going in that direction. Unfortunately I have never found a way of suggesting that people exercise restraint that doesn't leave them offended -- I would welcome suggestions. Looie496 (talk) 23:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Well he suggested doing it on his talk page. Maybe that would help avoid offense. Osman has asked 8 questions in the last 7 days. That's definitely frequent by normal RD standards, but I don't know where you think it's leading. I agree that he hasn't been trolling, and although Medis has previously voiced suspicions that he's a sockpuppet, I'm not aware of any reasons to believe that. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 23:21, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I often post more than one question a day, and I'm not a troll. Just in the last 24 hours I've asked 2 (why cheese is different once it melts and resolidifies, and a question about extracting water by metabolizing fat). StuRat (talk) 23:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

This isn't the first time people have been told they are asking too many questions, and many of them weren't trolls. Two examples which come to mind are people who asked basic questions and didn't seem to do much research, CI and JRS for example or who thise asked fairly inane questions of random thoughts in their head (WWPU). Of course even if the rate is fairly low, asking too many questions which we can't answer (BWH and IIRC to some extent that interacial marriage person) or a bunch of related questions where the OP doesn't seem to have read or at least understood the previous responses (the demographics IP) also tends to be seen as problematic. I would note that Looie's response suggestred one or two a day and which means two isn't really breaking the 'limit' and I'm pretty sure it was intended as an overall thing. If you occasionally ask 3 questions but normally don't ask any that isn't likely to be seen as a problem without considering the questions themselves.

As I hinted at, ultimately the questions will likely make a big difference to how people feel about the number. For example, I never really believed that Wdk123 (don't think this was ever a real account) et al was really trolling despite their many accounts and their later denial of them and they didn't really ask that many questions but I think their questions and way they responded tended to annoy people and sometimes violated a variety of guidelines which I think was part of the reason they were blocked (albeit later unblocked with I believe the requirement to stick to one account which I'm pretty sure they've violating) although I think the problems in mainspace were the final straw (and they seem to be staying away from it with what I believe is their new account).

In any case, with a single suggestion, I agree there's no cause for complaint. People are free to politely make resonable suggestions just as people are free to ignore them. You could perhaps argue it would have been better on the talk page but I don't see any point going in to long debates about that.

Nil Einne (talk) 00:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Further notes:

• The problem was not being impolite, but inappropriate.
• There is also no rule about this: " he doesn't really need to know the answers to." How can you determine that? Nobody needs to know whether a shooting star is faster than a comet, or why Pluto has a different orbit. Should these questions be banned?
• Legit questions are a legit contribution to a RD. There is no need to enforce a non-existing rule.~That's like criticizing someone for answering too many questions. OsmanRF34 (talk) 12:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Uh who said anything about enforcing any rule? As plenty of people have said, it was only a suggestion which isn't uncommon even here on the RD. Okay to be fair, there are some suggestions which are usually considered unwelcome, grammar/spelling ones are problematic not helped by the actions of one now banned and one disappeared editor but I haven't seen any real evidence people consider suggestions to reduce the number of questions one which is forbidden. And as the discussion over the previous weeks has indicated, we don't have any real agreement to remove flawed answers except in a few cases, but people do occasionally suggest an editor's answers are not always helpful and they perhaps should be more selective choosing when to reply which is likely to be far more offensive. Part of collaborating means you have to learn to accept criticism and suggestions, whether you choose to follow it or not is up to you although if you always find yourself offside with the community don't expect to last long. (In some cases it may be better if you don't follow it.) Nil Einne (talk) 12:57, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Who said something about enforcing any rule? Start with this: one or two question/day, when indeed it would increase the number of questions I was asking. And there is no optimal number of questions that the RD can deal with. What if someone asked 100 valid questions? I do see an agreement regarding quality, but Looie is at odds here, since there is not limit regarding quantity. Indeed, why would someone put a cap on the number of valid contributions? There was no valid criticism or suggestion by Looie. Therefore I suggest the Looie496's rule: don't suggest anything on the RD which makes no sense, nor is backed by common sense, nor is based by consensus. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually Looie496's suggestion made perfect sense and was a valid suggestion. You are dependent on people taking their time to answer your questions, and the more you annoy people, generally the less likely they are to do so. I doubt Looie496 was the only one getting annoyed by your behaviour and if they were then, your responses here have meant they aren't now. (And since you still don't seem to be getting it, it seems it was fine for Looie496 to point it out.) Frankly it's silly to suggest that simple suggestions needs consensus. Incidentally, someone asking 100 'valid' questions in a day would likely be blocked, probably before they even reach that number. The RD isn't anyone's personal question asking page and few would believe someone asking that many questions is asking in good faith anyway. I also don't know what you mean about Looie496 being at odds. No one here criticised Looie496 other then suggesting it may have been better to do it on your talk page. In fact me and 203 suggested it wasn't an issue. μηδείς is apparently also concerned about your behaviour and suggested Looie496 was too polite. 3 people (JoO, SG and SR) have opposed μηδείς's suggestion of a hard limit on questions per day and pointed out that sometimes people ask 2 or 3 questions in one day without issue, without really commenting on Looie496's politely worded suggestion. Nil Einne (talk) 00:02, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you explain at all by what behavior could he get annoyed? He suggested that I could limit myself to 1 or 2 questions/day, but I was asking less than that. There was absolutely no basis for that suggestion. OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:14, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Looie496 suggested you were asking a lot of questions and suggested you try to curb yourself. The limit they proposed may or may not have made sense, but missing the point of what someone's suggestion doesn't generally help. If really necessary, you could mention that you've never actually asked more then 1 or 2 questions a day and ask whether given this they still felt you were asking too many questions as perhaps they had overestimated how many questions you were asking. Alternatively just accept what was said, whether or not you choose to follow it. Either way your response here has reaffirmed for me my third sentence, so I most likely won't be responding further. P.S. On the day of Looie496's suggestion you asked 3 questions, 2 on the computing desk and 1 on the science so even from a technical standpoint you were asking more then the suggestion. Note also that when someone suggests you limit yourself to something, they're not actually suggesting you should try to achieve the limit. Nil Einne (talk) 14:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Illegal information

Should there be a policy against the reference desk providing either classified information or instructions on how to do something illegal? Whoop whoop pull up 08:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

No. That would make it impossible to give all kinds of information to people in different juristidictions, and we would have to find out what jurisdictions all the questioners are in, and even then people other than the questioner could still get information from the reference desk by looking at the answers given to others. It's totally impractical. 101.173.170.142 (talk) 09:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Plus, refusing to give such information would be implicity giving legal advice (about the legality of giving such information). 101.173.170.142 (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

No it wouldn't. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:25, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. In many areas we simply don't know if something is illegal or not. Areas like alcohol, for instance, where there are many regulations even in the USA. Or what if someone asks how to make their car go faster - might they be planning to speed? Or skeptical questions about religion (breaking some country's blasphemy law or law against inciting religious hatred)? Or general questions about guns and other weapons? If someone asks a specific question about something that's obviously a serious crime for anyone to do, like how to murder someone, and there's not really a legitimate reason for asking the question, then that question may be removed. But I don't think we need a policy saying that. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

And the rules on what counts as classified information are so baroque that even people with security clearances have hard times following them. --Mr.98 (talk) 11:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, the answers to some questions "How many figher jets does the air force have?" are public record in some countries but asking it in others would get one locked up! Roger (talk) 11:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, asking is not usually illegal. Answering can be. In most countries, answering is only illegal if you have been given access to specific information that is actually secret. (Interestingly, it rarely matters what you answer back — answering at all if one has been given said information is usually a no-no. So if I knew how many jets it was, and I said, "oh, how about 50?" that would probably be considered indiscreet even if I knew the answer was actually 500.) But anyway, classification is complicated. I have yet to see any questions answered on here that showed any sign of access to classified knowledge. (Though it's not impossible; technically all of the WikiLeaks State Department cables are still classified, even though anyone and their grandma can read them. Ironically, only members of the US government are not supposed to read them.) --Mr.98 (talk) 20:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It's legally reminiscent of trade secrets, although with potentially much worse penalties. You only get in trouble for revealing it if you had promised not to, and you only get in trouble for reading/using it if you payed the revealer to get it to you. IANAL but simply repeating what is already out in public is perfectly fine (in the US). I agree that I have not seen anything of concern on the desks. Regardless, if someone comes to Misplaced Pages and claims to have classified secret government information to reveal, they probably don't belong here. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It's actually considerably more complicated than even that... but anyway, we're digressing. Under US law, the fact that something is well-known by non-cleared people, or published openly, does not automatically relieve it of its legal classification status. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

So if somebody asks, "How would I go about gunning down a bunch of folks in a crowded movie theater", we would just merrily chime in and give the OP some ideas of what to do. Right? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, because none of us has anything resembling common sense and have no idea what a troll is. Can we please not go down the pedantic path? Dismas| 23:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

While I appreciate Dismas reminding us that common sense tells us not to answer, suppose someone (probably a troll) asks that question and another editor (who may also just be trolling) answers. Do we remove it? 203.27.72.5 (talk) 00:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Often any clear cut trolling is removed or at least hatted, this would include the responses although this frequently results in a fuss. One of the concerns is people may have answered in good faith without realising the OP was probably trolling but in the immediete term, it's difficult to imagine this is likely even for contributors from outside the US. Nil Einne (talk) 03:26, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Our practice has generally been to refuse to tell people how to get access to pirated software or media -- that's the main circumstance where this sort of thing has come up, as I recall. Looie496 (talk) 00:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

With copyright infrigement, one of the issues is we have a clear wikipediawide policy against linking to anything which is likely a copyright infrigement due to contributory infrigement concerns. Whatever some may like this argue, this is usually taken to include any specific torrents. Controversially some people have tried mentioning a well known torrent site like Pirate Bay or ISOHunt and perhaps even a suggested search term, I don't think we've ever had consensus on this but I doubt it would go down well it's ever taken to ANI or whatever. There are some potential concerns about helping those who appear to be infringing copyright these are more from the editor's POV but there may also be some concerns for the foundation (see the EFF's view ). I don't think there's any wikipedia wide policy on this probably because it isn't something that's much of an issue in other areas. Nil Einne (talk) 03:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, WP:RX is a precious resource which is only legal because the editing community presumably contemplates improving articles with the requested copyrighted material. It's been cleared by the Foundation as such, but if it were to be abused by someone who re-sold the information or used it commercially but not to improve the encyclopedia, it would be at risk. It's important to keep those kinds of cooperative fair use resources in mind when discussing these questions. 207.224.43.139 (talk) 23:16, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Speaking generally, if someone claims they seriously want to murder someone or do some other act illegal nearly everywhere with severe penalties, either they're trolling or I don't think we want to assist them. Either way I would support removal or at least hatting edit:, notifying the foundation if it's felt the querent may be serious. If people claim they are doing research for a book or are simply interested in the question, we usually AGF. When people suggest they want to do something illegal by their own intepretation but which isn't so extreme (e.g. 'I'm 18, how can I obtain alcohol in New York for a party, no one will sell to me since it's illegal' or 'how do I test my car's maximum speed on a public road without getting caught by the cops'), I think people are often reluctant to help particularly if they feel the OP may harm themselves or others but sometimes even if they may disagree with the law; although the question and serious answers are usually left be. Nil Einne (talk) 03:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

speaking of pointy trolling in search of criminal advice

Semantic mantis has described the request for information on how to convert semi-automatics to automatic hanguns as pointy, and I will call it insulting trolling. I have closed it per the above discussion. μηδείς (talk) 03:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree with closing that pointy thread. Even if generally speaking requests for advice on breaking law aren't out of bounds, I find it very hard to believe that that question was asked in good faith. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 03:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Repeated removal and restoration of the hat were followed by AndyTheGrump deleting it all together. Again, this was totally appropriate in my opinion. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Restored again. I warned User:Whoop whoop pull up that he is in violation of WP:3RR on his talk page. He apologised. So long as it stops now I'm inclined to leave it at that. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 05:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Good removal. Asking for advice on possibly breaking the law, and then edit-warring over it. He should know better. And incredibly poor and distasteful timing, following that horrific Colorado incident. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

It's on ANI now. I thought may be WWPU wasn't being pointy but asked the question above to check if what they wanted to ask was okay, and upon seeing the responses felt that their question was okay. (This has happened before although people usually mention they have a question in mind.) But WWPU states that neither are the case. Nil Einne (talk) 06:33, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Subsequent to the removal and AN/I, User:Swatjester went and posted legal advice about the question on Whoop Whoop's talk page, and User:Burpelson AFB gave an answer to the question there too. I left messages on both of their talk pages letting them know about the question posted here and why we wouldn't answer it. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 01:44, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

That is nothing! We've had detailed questions on the design and construction of thermonuclear bombs, not to mention the synthesis of methamphetamine and various high explosives. In the U.S., information about the production of neutrons is born secret because of proliferation concerns regarding nuclear activation, but we get Farnsworth fusor questions happily answered by regulars all the time, and chemical isotope separation questions now and then. Our articles on all of those topics are even more detailed in a way that seems far more dangerous to me than instructions on how to make a semi-automatic weapon fully automatic (are such instructions even illegal in the US?) I was told I was overreacting when reluctant to answer neutron production questions, but this is what happens when someone asks how to make an automatic gun? What do we do when someone asks how to make an AR-15 lower receiver? 207.224.43.139 (talk) 23:38, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

See "Hatting of Boat Pumps question" above. We really do need to have a defined policy on how we deal with questions where our helpful answers could put third parties, or even the OP themself, at risk. Our current policies about not giving legal or medical advice are there to protect us, primarily. This issue is about protecting other people, primarily. We have a duty of care, and we cannot continue to leave it up to the whim of individual editors. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 01:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Jack, we could "put someone at risk" by recommending a specific route to avoid a traffic jam on the way home, by explaining the properties of safety matches or by suggesting that the OP seek professional medical advice. (Yes, I am being extreme, but telling the truth, nonetheless.) I don't, personally, have any problem at all in pointing an adult to a source for information about suicide, for example, but, even accepting that I can't know for certain that it is an adult asking the question, others would object, some strenuously. I doubt we do have a duty of care beyond what one might accept for oneself. I don't know enough about firearms to comment on the sense (or lack thereof) of making a gun an automatic weapon, but I am sure there are Ref Desk Regulars who either do know, or who would spot a bogus or dangerous response and call it out. I am generally against making any more rules than are necessary. The Ref Desks have come this far (at least 5 years in my personal experience) without it being a problem; why add more layers of rules now? Bielle (talk) 01:59, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

We seem to have had a whole rash of aggressive question removals, hattings, closures etc lately. And they've led to increased traffic here on the talk page. This diverts us from our real purpose. Why not substitute the heat here for light out there. If a particular question is appropriately hatted or removed entirely, then surely a whole class of questions should be treated that way. More than one class, really, but they could all be sub-classes of "Questions that require special treatment". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 04:20, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

What you say about a "whole rash of aggressive question removals . . ." is true; however, as I have never agreed with the aggression and only sometimes agreed with the removals etc., I see the problem more as a behavioural matter for a few of the regulars and not a policy matter that requires more rules. I am (we are) only diverted from our real purpose if I (we) decide to join in. Instead of defining "wrong questions", perhaps we should look instead at "wrong behaviours", on a case-by-case basis. In general, if one of us thinks a question should be hatted or removed that is seeking neither legal nor medical advice, avoid unilateral action (excepting only gross BLP problems and the like). If one feels very threatened by even the thought that someone might provide an inappropriate response in the meantime, why not just add "Please do not respond here before you review the discussion here", with a link to the talk page? We aren't running a kindergarten, nor do we want people to act as Ref Desk police; there is enough of that about elsewhere on WP. Bielle (talk) 04:43, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I strongly agree that in general non-medical/legal/BLP violations ought to be discussed prior to being hatted or deleted. There needs to be a consensus before we remove something. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 05:04, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

No. Hatting does nothing other than pause discussion to look for consensus when an editor has a concern. μηδείς (talk) 05:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Other editors shouldn't just have their discussions paused on them because one person has a concern that may not be shared by the community. Leaving a note like Bielle suggested that points editors to the where the discussion is going on is far more appropriate. Until there is a consensus, it's up to the individual editors to decide if they want to continue or not. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 05:20, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

@ Bielle, for what encyclopedic purpose would we be suggesting a route home for someone? I think we can agree that that case might not be particularly risky, but why would the wikipedia reference desk have anything to say about it? (These are rhetorical questions, not personal challenges, obviously.) μηδείς (talk) 05:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

We answer a lot of questions that have no readily discernible encyclopaedic purpose. I can recall a question about the closest subway stop to some specific destination on the Toronto system, though not one about avoiding traffic jams. I believe I answered it. I would answer one about avoiding a traffic jam if I knew the area. Not all of us have GPS. :) Bielle (talk) 05:17, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Is saying that we do do something saying why or that we should do it? We can say that such and such information exists at a certain article or link without any problem. Who disagrees that when we get into the individual and the risky at the same time we have crossed a line? μηδείς (talk) 05:27, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I recently asked about an individual experiment that I was actually doing involving dangerous chemicals (I wouldn't call it risky because I know it was done safely, but other editors could only assume). I don't think it crossed any lines and was an entirely appropriate question for a reference desk that could be, and in fact was, answered with a variety of links to articles. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 05:41, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Straw poll on dangerous questions?

Someone should do a straw poll on removing questions about making nuclear weapons, fissile material and its enrichment, chemical and biological weapons, high explosives, addictive and dangerous drugs of abuse, and automatic weapons. I'm in favor of being less forthcoming on those topics, in that order, here on the Reference Desks than we may be in our articles. If someone wants to convince me otherwise, I'd like to know of a case where a question on those topics is likely to arise without putting a third party at risk. Academics studying those topics can look up the articles themselves. 207.224.43.139 (talk) 03:00, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Categorical rules are a bad idea. Misplaced Pages is WP:Uncensored, though it would be reasonable to remove questions on a case by case basis if its clear they are seeking help in actually doing something illegal. If I asked, How many components are different between a semi-automatic AR-15 and a select fire M4? I would be asking a question that could reasonably fall into the category of making automatic weapons, yet a forthright answer that just said how many were different really wouldn't aid the questioner in making an automatic weapon. Likewise, someone asking about how much uranium had to be mined to supply the Mahattan project is asking about creating nuclear weapons, but our response isn't going to help them make one. I think the better rule would be: If the context of a question makes it reasonably certain the questioner intends to use the information being sought for an illegal purpose, don't respond. Monty₈₄₅ 03:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Uncensored refers to not deleting material bacause someone finds it religiously/aesthetically objectionable. μηδείς (talk) 03:34, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

No. Polls, by their very nature, achieve the exact opposite of working towards consensus. Stick to discussion. And good luck with that. HiLo48 (talk) 03:04, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, two of my pet peeves here were the threads on "How can I poison rats?" and "Can I safely drink out of a cup which previously bore poisonous contents?" Both of those could be criticized not only as regarding dangerous actions, but also specific non-encyclopedic individual acts. Questions that involve individual risk would seem to be delimitable. I am not in favor of banning theoretical questions. μηδείς (talk) 03:34, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is a question that I remembered coming through awhile back, specifically addressing the concern raised above about making "explosives" (is Nitroglycerine even a high explosive?), and how it was handled. Personally, I think that too much information was given, but that said, the OP was not given any particularly useful or helpful information if doing bad stuff was his or her goal. I would concede that we should act with restraint when we suspect that people are trying to do dangerous or destructive things (like asking how to build Nitroglycerine), but to make an actual rule saying "delete that" would be too restrictive. I think a common sense sort of "rule" would be a lot better. Obviously (in my mind) if somebody knows how, he or she should not be writing out instructions on how to make Nitroglycerine, just from an ethical standpoint. Falconus 03:49, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I oppose any straw poll because Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. I don't have any problems with so called dangerous questions. If the questions are about dangerous things like explosives, radioactive material, poisonous substances, infectious agents, weapons, cars, flammaable goods, corrosive liquids, drugs or whatever we can just point them to an article or extenal reference about what they are talking about. If providing that information is illegal where you are don't answer. If there are no references, let them know. If there's no chance of there being any anywhere because of the highly specific and unencyclopaedic nature of the question, close the thread. If they're trolling (and I mean really trolling, not just anything you happen to not like), close/delete the thread. If they make a threat of violence, follow the procedure for dealing with that. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:09, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

A straw poll is not a formal vote. I didn't think it was being suggested that with 50%+1 we would institute a reign of terror. As for the Nitroglycerine example, that is a perfect case where the criterion of individual risk (or whatever we would call it) would apply. Say a perrson asks how nitroglycerine is made. Dangerous? Yes, in the abstract. A question involving individual risk? Not necessarily, it can be curiosity. Is the subject encyclopedic? Yes, we are entitled to answeer it as such. Supposed the subject says that he is trying to dry out nitroglycerine in his oven, and he wants to know the best temperature at which to do it as quickly as possible, but without ruining it or killing himself. Encyclopedic? No, this question is of concern to one individual in a specific circumstance. We are not a how-to. Individual risk? Yes, in a court of law we could be found liable if he follows our advice and... μηδείς (talk) 04:28, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I just mean I want to get a sense of what proportion of others active here share my concerns about answering questions on these particular subjects. I don't really care what proportion wants me to be unable to get such a sense, but it's apparently larger than I expected. Sigh. 207.224.43.139 (talk) 06:04, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Removal of Bad Breath medical advice request

This question was posted in both the miscellaneous RD and the science RD. I removed it from the science desk once I realised that there was an identical question on the miscellaneous desk that had been hatted by Medis. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 21:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Good removal. Halitosis can be symptomatic of any number of things. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I was going to argue about this as I read the question because at the start it was a general question about what could be causes of a condition, which is a reasonable question, not seeking a specific diagnoses.. When it started talking about "my friend", that's when I saw that, yes, good removal. The user was looking for a potential diagnosis. Mingmingla (talk) 02:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

When somebody hats/habs the discussion due to policy violations, then it should not be edited further. Medeis closed it, and at least three editors added unecessary stuff. At least Bugs was just suggesting seeing a doctor, but Viennese Waltz was telling the OP exactly how to go about getting medical advice from us next time. I know I have hat/hatted my fair share of things, only to have people come right in and continue editing as if it weren't closed. Could we stop that? I know that the recommendation is to delete rather than hat/hab, but I find it preferable to leave it there closed so that the OP can see why the question wasn't accepted, rather than it just disappearing. I really don't know how else to tell people - when someone else closes a conversation, do not add any information without bringing it up here. In my mind, it's that simple. Falconus 03:09, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Just delete it and add the template {{RD-delete}}. Then the asker knows why it's gone, and the entire discussion is removed. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 03:46, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

That seems like an option, but it remains that when someone closes the discussion, it should then be done. Falconus 16:21, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

You don't mention a third user. Is it me? I added a link to the article on halitosis. In doing this I was following part of the medical advice guidelines: "Where appropriate, offer links to suitable resources. This may include internal wikilinks or external websites. Be extremely careful not to offer a diagnosis in this way."  Card Zero  (talk) 20:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I understand Falconus' complaint, but I didn't find anything wrong (which is different from annoying) with the three posts. I thought hatting the question was okay since no diagnosis had yet been given. I think hatting first then deleting if necessary or another editor seconds and wishes to do so is better than deleting at the drop of a hat. μηδείς (talk) 20:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, others here maybe don't agree with me as strongly about keeping a closed conversation completely closed - I'll stop worrying about that then for now, but I will probably choose to remove questions in the future rather than hat/hab them, or maybe do as Medeis says above, and just delete the question if I don't like how people edit my hat/hab. Falconus 03:02, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I do agree that it's rude to continue a hatted discussion, it shows contempt for the rules. I do think that those three comments were innocuous per se, but set a bad example. My suggestion above was that we treat hatting and deletion as a two-step process wher one editor hats, signs his comment when hatting, and posts here. Then a second editor who agrees (assuming there is no immediate consensus against) can delete the question if he feels it is warranted. Only in the case of really bad problems should one editor immediately delete a section entirely--but be bold if the act is justified. 04:18, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

"girl's" gymnastics? hatted

I have deleted a question as to why women's gymnastics isn't called girl's gymnastics as a request for opinion and invitation to debate. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Humanities&pe=1&#Why_do_they_call_it_.22Women.27s_Gymnastics.22 μηδείς (talk) 01:06, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has Gymnastics all-around champions by age which may have been of some help. Sometimes editors will try and get poorly worded or borderline trolling questing back on track.—eric 01:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't see this as anything of the sort, medeis. I assume ScienceApe is referring to the fact that, at least in some jurisdictions, most of the competitors are legally minors, and "Girls Gymnastics" is most definitely a thing. ScienceApe also didn't explicitly ask for an argument or opinions, that was you putting words in his mouth. If there exists an official communique from the IOC regarding the name of this event, then it is possible to answer while referring only to verifiable facts. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:33, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I see no justification for hatting this Q. It's entirely possible the IOC has made a statement on their naming choices, in which case a factual answer would exist. Unless you can positively state that they never made such a statement, you should not hat the Q. StuRat (talk) 02:31, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I think its clear there's no sewer you won't justify wallowing in StuRat. If the OP wants to ask a serious question he is invited to do so. But just putting "why" in front of an insulting premise doesn't turn it from inflammatory trolling into a valid ref desk question. I get it that the OP thinks the women should be called girls. And I suppose we should entertain the question why the don't call the Miss Ebony pageant the unmarried black girl pageant, because "that's what they are"? I am not prepared to offer my opinion or debate why women shouldn't be called girls. Let the OP post a relevant request for references. It is not our place to rewrite frog questions hoping to turn them into princes. μηδείς (talk) 04:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, Medeis, it's equally clear that there's almost no question you won't construct some new reason to hat, delete, or get terribly alarmed about. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:29, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

You are aware that girl is a common word to refer to any woman who is not legally an adult? Are you aware that assume good faith is an official guideline? No rewriting of the question is required. You just have to stop making wild assumptions of the OP. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there was any reason to hat or close the question and I think FiggyBee answered it succinctly (if without references): calling it a "Girls" event would imply an upper age limit (cf. Girl Guides and Boy Scouts). Matt Deres (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

removed identifying information from defamatory post

The following post http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Science&pe=1&#Am_I_getting_ripped_off_by_a_claim_to_need_replacing_the_PCM_on_my_PT_Cruiser.3F made defamatory statements per se comparing a named individual to a criminal gangster. I believe the entire post should be removed, and its visibility changed, but do not know how to go about the latter. Can an admin take a look? I think I'll post this at ANI as well. μηδείς (talk) 01:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be going way overboard here. For example, you've removed the names of businesses, what rule are those are supposed to have violated ? StuRat (talk) 01:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

There is potential liability for defamation from people and companies. The entire post will need to have its visibility removed. There is no purpose served mentioning third parties when such a suit is possible. I have already referred this to ANI and am going to go to BLP for quicker action. μηδείς (talk) 01:47, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I will just note that there was no actual named individual. There was a named business, which was itself named after an individual, but there was no imputation in the post that the person who the company is named after was the person who the OP spoke to. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

And what defamation are you even talking about ? Is it "Am I getting ripped off" ? You seem to be seriously deluded if you think such a post needs to be removed from all Misplaced Pages records. That is only done in extremely serious cases. StuRat (talk) 02:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Shall we contact the dealership then and have them comment on the statements? Maybe they can help us help the IP? Are you suggesting that knowing the dealers name (and a business can sue, BTW) helps us as wikipedians answer this question? Or that as wikipedians we can answer this question? The IP User has commented that he meant no criminal allegations at the BLP board. I have suggested that he show good faith by rewriting and reposting his question without the identification of third parties. If you have some problem with that you can go comment at the BLP board. Or you could just revert my edits and restore the comparison. μηδείς (talk) 03:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Please include links to AN/I, BLP, or anywhere else you've posted about how incredibly dangerous you think this Q is. StuRat (talk) 04:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

AN/I discussion and WP:BLPN discussion. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:24, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of the VIN number

I don't see why he can't include his own VIN if he wants to. I don't see how it would help either, but if he wants to identify himself or his own property, that's his business. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:02, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

We don't let people give their addresses, telephone numbers, or email just because that's their business. My question is, does knowing the VIN actually help answer the question, and is it untraceable? If the answer to either of those questions is no, then under no circumstances should it be posted. μηδείς (talk) 04:06, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be saying anything which is not of use in answering a Q should be redacted immediately, even if it's not harmful in any way. We have no such policy. If they want to include irrelevant info, that's fine. Only if it is somehow harmful should it be removed. StuRat (talk) 04:15, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The reason addresses, telephone numbers, and email addresses are redacted is because they're are contact info. You can't reasonably contact someone with a VIN. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 04:18, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

There are places where you can look up the record of a car based on it's VIN, like Carfax, but they charge a fee, so I'm not going to do that. StuRat (talk) 04:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

This is very simple. The ref desk is about answering questions using wikipedia's resources. Not about seeing what neat shit we can get our paws into. Posting the VIN is potentially harmful--it can be looked up by anyone with a subscription to carfax or the like, and this is attached to a name and an address on a title one assumes. And still no one is saying why we would need the number in the first place. Misplaced Pages is not a window for us to peep into or to throw garbage out of. We need to control our urges rather than act like children demanding to know why there should be any limit on our actions, god forbid, a self-imposed one. Until we do have a reason to know it besides curiosity and an assurance of safety, leave it out. μηδείς (talk) 04:30, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

You still don't get it. There is no policy saying we can delete anything that's posted simply because we think it's irrelevant. So stop using that as a justification. As for harm, I'm still not seeing it. So somebody could find out who owns the car. So what ? StuRat (talk) 04:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The "act like children demanding to know why there should be any limit on our actions" sounds more like you, where your action is randomly hatting things for reasons you invent. StuRat (talk) 04:38, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, I think most of us appreciate that you are trying to keep things in order around here, but you do seem a bit trigger happy on the hats and deletions. I'm not saying you should stop entirely, but perhaps you can bring them here to the talk page before you do anything. I know it seems like everyone is against you sometimes. In some cases, the community agrees with you, in some they don't. But you have been closing a substantial amount of stuff lately, not all of it warranting any action at all. Mingmingla (talk) 16:53, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry, I don't feel like the community is against me, and thanks for the comment. I do think certain posts merit bold action. Hatting and going to an admin board is not unilateral deleting. I can't imagine, for example that there's even one lone holdout who really regrets the removal of references to third parties in the recent science desk post. Although there was a lot of loud complaining. And the reposted thread has veered away from answering the user's question, and turned bizarrely into a debate over why we shouldn't post unique and traceable identifying information, even if we don't need it. I suggest we all focus on providing quality answers to valid questions. μηδείς (talk) 17:12, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

So, first you say on the miscellaneous desk posting of the quesiton, "If other editors believe this information is both actually necessary and guaranteed harmless I invite it to be restored if there is consensus," and then you wonder why the responses there have "turned bizarrely into a debate over why we shouldn't post unique and traceable identifying information." Is this more of that irony I don't get? 203.27.72.5 (talk) 20:14, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, what's the point of being zealous when it comes to deleting questions of others, BUT, at the same time posting jewels like this: Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2012_July_19#Why_do_Europeans_speak_American_so_poorly.3F? OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I remember that one. It left 12 dead and 50 wounded. μηδείς (talk) 18:53, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

In summary... OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:15, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, you're still not getting it. Just because nobody misses something you redacted doesn't mean you have the right to redact it. Using your logic, it would be fine if I broke into your house and took some small objects you don't much care about. The redaction itself is wrong, regardless of the content which was redacted, unless the material redacted violated some policy. Your argument that it was extraneous is absolutely irrelevant.

I agree with the suggestion that you should post your complaints here first, and only hat if you get a consensus to do so. (Anything that seriously needs hatting will be hatted by others.) StuRat (talk) 19:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Although the VIN might be useful, usefulness alone is not sufficient reason to allow it, because the fact that the VIN information can directly lead to who owns a particular car is similar to randomly posting an email address here that leads to its rightful owner. Such posting of personal information is potentially problematic and against the policy I would think. --Modocc (talk) 20:10, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

What about the posting of static IP addresses that is done automatically for non-logged in users? They can easily lead back to the person using it. There's nothing wrong with identifing yourself. Many wikipedia editors do it in various ways for various reasons. There is even a policy on editing under your own, real name. You can't post contact information on the RD because the questions are to be answered here so they are subject to review by the other editors, not sent off in a private email communication. If you want to list your first and last name, town that you live in and place of birth that's up to you. If it's wildly off topic then I can see why it might be hatted or if there's some burning reason why it must be redacted (for example if someone is being impersonated) then that can be requested, but there's no policy of automatic redaction of all unique identifiers. In my questions and answers on here I've given more than enough information to uniquely identify myself. Between my IP address and details I've given about my work there's only one person on Earth who I could be, but that doesn't mean we're going to go redact all of that.

In this case the VIN number is possibly relevant to the question. Some mechanic who does have a subscription to carfax might chance by, look up the VIN and see that the car is of a particular series with a known defect in that particular faulty component and give some good, verifiable information to the OP. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 20:30, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The static IP is revealed by only the persons allowed access to a computer, thus we can assume that this is OK and we have no reason to not allow this, however with any other personal information provided by posters, we can not be sure about who exactly is providing the information and for what purpose. We do not know if a poster is using and/or misusing someone's personal information without their permission. Its therefore against policy. --Modocc (talk) 20:49, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Which policy? To quote Misplaced Pages:Personal_security_practices#Personal_information, "Misplaced Pages does not require you to provide personal information on userpages or elsewhere in the course of editing the encyclopedia. While there is no policy forbidding this(emphasis mine), remember that information revealed amongst friends and fellow editors on Misplaced Pages is kept in a permanent record that is accessible by anyone in the world with a networked computer." 203.27.72.5 (talk) 20:52, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

This is a Red Desk policy: "Do not provide your contact information. E-mail or home addresses, or telephone numbers, will be removed." Note that we don't include things like VINs. StuRat (talk) 20:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The reason we don't allow things like email addresses is that a spam-bot can easily collect those and spam those people. With a VIN number it would take time and money to track down the owner, and no spam-bot is going to do that. StuRat (talk) 20:54, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

That's one reason, not the only reason. Liability for advertising information we cannot confirm the provenance of is another. I would say let IP70 mail us a letter certifying the VIN is his--but still, why would it be the policy of an encyclopedia to take such risks? μηδείς (talk) 20:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The real name policy is very relevant. I agree with Modocc. I assume good faith on the part of the IP user given his very gracious response to my challenges--but we do not have any way of verifying that the VIN (vehicle identification number) belongs to him. We have serious concerns here, however slight, and still no overwhelming reason why the VIN has to be posted at an encyclopedia.μηδείς (talk) 20:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

And if he did post somebody else's VIN, what possible harm would that cause ? You can't commit identity theft by knowing just a VIN. StuRat (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Certainly anyone pretending to be the owner of a VIN is, to a certain extent, stealing the VIN owner's identity, and someone may be malicious with such impersonations by getting the person they are impersonating into trouble with some institution or third party. Real names are OK, but the real name policy is written so as to minimize such risks. Given that the post entailed a complaint against specific parties, μηδείς was correct in challenging the personally identifying info. --Modocc (talk) 21:50, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I haven't read all of the above so forgive me if this has already been said, but there are actually pictures of "VINs" in the Vehicle Identification Number article and . There doesn't seem to be anything prohibiting the posting of them nor any verification checks ensuring the uploaders actually owned the vehicles. 92.233.64.26 (talk) 22:04, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate you pointing these out, and if a discussion such as what took place on the reference board here were to take place regarding any of those VINs, there would be grounds for some oversight on those discussions too. If Jimbo or other established editor put their VINs online that would be fine, nevertheless any editor that reveals their real name or other identifying information is subject to a block and oversight in accordance with the real name policy, which is intended to ensure that an editor is actually the person they say they are. In addition, this is not the best venue to discuss whether or not these VIN pics are appropriate, but I'll assume they are. --Modocc (talk) 22:43, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Did they even claim to own the vehicles? I could go to the car park out front and give you pictures of 20 VINs from cars I don't own. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 22:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

In a post on the computing desk from May last year a user posted the serial numbers of a variety of computer components that he claim to own. In a post on the miscellaneous desk from March this year a user posted a partial VIN from his motorcycle. In another post on the miscellaneous desk from September last year a user posted the entire VIN number of his car. None of these were redacted. I don't see how any policy says that they ought to be redacted. But if you insist, could we agree on a compromise to include a partial VIN number? 203.27.72.5 (talk) 22:36, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

That could work, as part identifies the model and part is a serial number of the actual unit, but it's not always obvious which is which. StuRat (talk) 23:25, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Consensus is not established - or even modified - by any one editor "insisting". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 23:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Computer serial numbers are not publicly traceable to titles. If the IP editor wants to take a picture of his VIN and upload it he will authorize a legal release saying he is the author of the work. Let him do so and post the picture. It indemnifies us and incriminates him if he uses it for false purposes. It will also be immediately deleted since WP:NOTIMAGE, not that we all care about the big picture or anything beyond the next fix...I mean comment. Frankly, this discussion is getting tiresome, since it is based solely on the premise that editors can do whatever they like on the ref desk without a valid reason for doing it and no matter what the consequences. μηδείς (talk) 05:19, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

You would do well to remember what you just said there: "based solely on the premise that editors can do whatever they like on the ref desk without a valid reason for doing it and no matter what the consequences." That applies to you, too. Just come to the talk page here before hatting or deleting, get a consensus, and let it go if you don't get one. Misplaced Pages might be at risk with our decisions (but probably not), but you personally will not be held accountable if something slips through without you getting to it quickly enough. Mingmingla (talk) 17:36, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

As for the VIN issue, there is no real expectation of privacy, since I can walk through a parking lot and get the VIN to every car there. Mingmingla (talk) 17:38, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

That VINS are not private doesn't matter if the general objective of the policies is to prevent the misuse or abuse of such information. Real names, street addresses, and license plates are also public information, and email addresses and telephone numbers are often too. -Modocc (talk) 22:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Say what Mingmingla? Are you comparing English Misplaced Pages to a parking lot? Do you actually own a car? Do you walk around parking lots peeking through the windshields? Or do you save such creepiness for Misplaced Pages? Franamax (talk) 01:59, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Medeis, as far as I'm concerned, editors can do whatever they like on the ref desks, as long as it's within WP policy and the ref desk guidelines. As to the "without a valid reason for doing it" part, as far as I'm concerned, editors are presumed to have their own, good reasons -- AGF, and all that. Finally, as far as the "no matter what the consequences" part (and, again, as far as I'm concerned), editors are innocent until proven guilty of not causing bad consequences.

I'm tired of this thread, too, as it's a whole bunch of unnecessary discussion about a non-problem which it seems to me that you have constructed out of thin air. —Steve Summit (talk) 23:39, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Good answer on the my daughter has apha thalassemia question

For all our talk above, I think the answers in the Alpha-thalassemia question are exactly how we should treat this kind of question. Good work there to everyone who posted in it. Mingmingla (talk) 17:45, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I am going to move my suggested reading under Mr98's comment. I am wondering if maybe we should collapse the policy discussion. The user will not necessarily profit from reading us talking among ourselves. μηδείς (talk) 17:55, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Removing dangerous questions

The idea of a straw poll was rejected above, so I propose this change to WP:RDG outright:

We should remove questions about making nuclear weapons, producing thermal neutrons, making fissile material and enriching it, making chemical or biological weapons, making high explosives, making addictive and dangerous drugs of abuse, and making automatic weapons. Npmay (talk) 18:14, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Oppose Those are encyclopedic topics. It is the request for risky speccific individual how-to advice that is problematic. μηδείς (talk) 18:35, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Can we please use common sense in this area? Questions that are clearly inappropriate should be removed from the page, particularly if there are multiple such questions from the same user. If the question appears to have been asked in good faith, a note explaining why this particular question was not suited for the ref-desk can be left on the editor's talkpage. Excessive time should not be spent arguing about the merits of such questions, as this diverts community time and resources both from responding to other questions asked on the reference desk as well as from editing the main portion of the encyclopedia. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing more amusing to me than people who know very little about what is and is not sensitive information related to nuclear weapons making things up that sound scary to them. Producing thermal neutrons is not exactly a secret thing — Enrico Fermi was issued a patent for the basic method in 1940! There are patents for enriching uranium, making a nuclear reactor, and separating plutonium from the waste products. Knowing how to do these sorts of things is pretty innocuous — because it's a long way from actually doing any of them. I think as long as nobody is using the Ref Desk to broker centrifuge sales then we're in the clear as far as the NPT is concerned. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Although if you are reading about those things from an Apple device, you may be violating a EULA agreement. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I just had a delicious idea. What if the North Korean nuclear tests fizzled because they got their nuclear weapons design information off of Misplaced Pages? --Mr.98 (talk) 03:53, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Pretty sure Microsoft products have the same requirement in their EULA. 203.27.72.5 (talk) 07:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

It's just export control boilerplate. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

So do we ban questions about Iran's nuclear weapons program? Or the Manhattan project? Or nuclear power? (I'm also intrigued why you want to ban questions on automatic weapons but are fine with questions on semi-automatics and other sorts of firearms. Maybe you feel other firearms are so easy to manufacture that a prohibition is unnecessary.) --Colapeninsula (talk) 12:05, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose as in the previous discussion, a rigid categorical rule will either be substantially over inclusive, or miss lots of questions that should be removed. The solution is common sense, not WP:CREEP. Monty₈₄₅ 14:39, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Just let the Chinese Government become the World Government and let the entire internet be censored. Spyware issued by the Government must be installed on all computers. Count Iblis (talk) 23:39, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, right. This whole thread is a misnomer. There are no dangerous questions, period. There are, however, plenty of dangerous answers to questions, and plenty of dangerous statements not associated with any questions. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 23:47, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Hatted BLP violation

This thread http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous&pe=1&#David_Miscavige.27s_wife is problematic, and the last comment making specific claims is a clear BLP violation. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

No, it's not. It's a factual question. Michelle Miscavig has not had any public appearance in any form in years. The OP wanted to know if it's being investigated as a crime. If you have a problem with a particular comment, take it out on that comment. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

When was the last time <leader> visited <place>?_visited_<place>?-2012-08-01T20:22:00.000Z">

I have just removed two of these from the Humanities desk, and I'm going to be silently removing any more that I come across. This is Ref-desk abuse. Looie496 (talk) 20:22, 1 August 2012 (UTC)_visited_<place>?"> _visited_<place>?">

I think it's worth noting that both questions were more than <arbitrary leader> / <arbitrary place>, but rather <leader of colonial power> / <former colony>. That is, the topics themselves are not inherently ref desk abuse. — Lomn 20:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be a bit of a shame to systematically remove questions like this. Generally, I'm perfectly happy for anyone to go ahead and remove stuff any time they feel like it, but I don't see what the benefit is going to be in this case. No-one forces us to answer, or even look at, questions, and so I'd say the best defence against boring and/or repetitive questions would be to ignore them. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:37, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

What is abuse is that the editor has been asking questions of that form over and over again for weeks. One or two is no problem, but it is ridiculous to expect us to handle an endless series of them. Looie496 (talk) 20:39, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this person should be doing their own google searches, but why can't you just ignore the questions? You don't have to answer them and if other editors do want to, why not just let them? 203.27.72.5 (talk) 21:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

" in headings cause linking problems. The symbols "( )" do not cause technical problems. The symbols "{ }" probably cause technical problems. I am not sure about the technical suitability of underscores—"_ _"—as enclosing symbols in headings. See User:Wavelength/About Misplaced Pages/Link test page one and User:Wavelength/About Misplaced Pages/Link test page two.

—Wavelength (talk) 21:14, 1 August 2012 (UTC)]

Yeah, I noticed. I won't do it that way again :-). Looie496 (talk) 22:05, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Obviously it would be more efficient to just research a particular guy's schedule via Google than to try and make others here do that same work. Although I do wonder... When was the last time the chairman of the 2012 Olympics took his family to Newcastle? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:51, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Many questions asked at the refdesk could be answered with Just Google It. Is that the standard for actually removing questions now? Monty₈₄₅ 14:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Without regard for whether or not the questions should or should not have been removed, the asker has been here for years asking the same sorts of questions. He seems to generally be interested in former colonial powers in general, and often asks a streak of closely related questions regarding former colonial posessions and their current relationship to their former colonizers. For example, in rapid succession we might get a series of questions which asks about immigration from the DRC to Belgium, and from Indonesia to the Netherlands, and from Algeria to France, and from Brazil to Portugal. Wait two weeks, and then we get a series of questions on Belgian-based corportations who have employees in the DRC, and Netherlands-based corporations who have employees in Indonesia, and French-based corporations who have employees in Algeria, etc. Then wait two weeks and we get the next batch of questions. Given the narrow focus of the questions, and the similarity each time, I think it is a clear case of Hanlon's razor if I ever saw one: The OP of all of these questions isn't trolling: They are genuinely interested in the lasting effects on colonialism in various places; but lack the wherewithal, ability, or knowhow to any serious research in the field: instead they come here and ask these redundant questions. Not sure what the appropriate way to handle this is, except to note that they've been here a long time, and that I usually don't have any problem answering their questions politely when I can find the answer. Perhaps that is the best way to handle it. --Jayron32 20:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

This is one editor I haven't followed very well but am I right they are the same people always asking stuff like how many Indonesias there are in the Netherlands and other random demographics stuff like Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 March 28#French cities with significant population Muslim African francophonie arab? If so, while I agree I haven't seen much evidence they're a troll, they do seem to lack the ability not only to do any research, but seemingly to understand and read the articles and stuff that has been told them before. E.g. as you and me pointed Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 June 3#Largest Muslim population in Europe 2, it's not entirely clear how much they absorbed from many of the other answers. (I remember the Indonesian part a lot because I also remember AnonMoos mentioning lots of times about how there are many Moluccans in the Netherlands.) While I'm not saying we should remove their questions, I do understand the temptation when it's not clear if there's much point trying to answer. Nil Einne (talk) 17:06, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I have no opinion on this removal, but please provide the diffs for your actions, Looie, so they can be traced without days of research. μηδείς (talk) 19:21, 4 August 2012 (UTC)_visited_<place>?"> _visited_<place>?">

Closed request for legal advice

Closed request for legal advice: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Humanities&pe=1&#After_over_4_years.2C_what_happens_to_my_unpaid_Softbank_cellphone_bill.3F μηδείς (talk) 19:19, 4 August 2012 (UTC)