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Revision as of 04:45, 19 August 2012

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Journalism Start‑class Low‑importance

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New addition

An IP is adding information to this article which is not fully supported by the claimed source (the source doesn't speak of "propaganda" or Misplaced Pages at all, for instance.) The IP has also removed info sourced to Forbes.com, which seems like a reliable source. The rotating IP needs to get consensus for their change instead of edit warring. Yobol (talk) 17:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Vaccines

The stand-alone sentence, "In July 2012, Attkisson's reporting on vaccines was characterized as spreading "anti-vaccine misinformation" and "anti-science" by Steven Salzberg," is entirely inappropriate for a biography of a living person and violates the neutral point of view policy, specifically undue weight:

An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and NPOV, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news.

This claim about Sharyl Attkisson's focus on vaccines comes from a linked article that connects her with an outbreak of whooping cough with absolutely no credulity. The only credit we seem to take into account for including this reference is that the author is a reliable source. Unfortunately, his material isn't and has no solid ground after reading the piece. Even more damaging to the credibility of the source is it's own source.

This is a recent, isolated criticism by a minority, turned into a single sentence on Misplaced Pages without context or care for Neutral Point of View. I open this conversation for why it should be included, but I note that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox and the issue that I have with the line is based solely on policy and has nothing to do with the global conversation about vaccination political camps. The burden of evidence is on those who wish inclusion for contentious material in BLPs. Keegan (talk) 06:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

BLP is NOT a blanket for removing any content critical of a living person's actions/misactions/errors. "Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone."-- The Red Pen of Doom 14:58, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not understanding the specific way in which this violates WP:UNDUE; the position that Attkisson appears to be promoting (vaccines are dangerous/may cause autism) is clearly the minority (actually fringe minority) opinion in the medical community. That her reporting promotes such a view is also not a minority, as it has been thus described by others such as Seth Mnookin here , Media Matters here, and Paul Offit in his book and appears to be the mainstream opinion (to the extent there exists one). Do you have a reliable source that says her vaccine reporting isn't anti-vaccine or praises it, from outside the anti-vaccine movement?

Also, you seem to have declared this source as unreliable based merely on the fact that you disagree with the assessment of the author and how he arrived to it, Salzman. This would seem to fly in the face of how we determine the reliability of sources here on Misplaced Pages. While I agree that we cannot connect Attkisson directly to the cases of whooping cough, neither the source nor our mention here in this Misplaced Pages article does so, so using that as an argument against this source seems to be a non sequitur. The consensus on WP:BLPN appearss to be that it is a reliable source, however, so I'm not sure we even have to go over this ground again. So far, I see no convincing argument that this material shouldn't be placed back in. I also agree with the comment above regarding the use of WP:BLP. Yobol (talk) 15:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

"While I agree that we cannot connect Attkisson directly to the cases of whooping cough, neither the source nor our mention here in this Misplaced Pages article does so, so using that as an argument against this source seems to be a non sequitur." Right, that column had absolutely no evidence of connection of Attkisson's news reports to any detrimental effect, nor does it, aside from accusations, make her a supporter of the anti-vaccination crowd. It's just innuendo. What you have found here is the one source on the web that you could include that qualifies as a RS and taken it out of context to label someone on Misplaced Pages with a single sentence. This is highly inappropriate and a highly irresponsible way to treat a biography, and again is fundamentally not neutral. At all. Keegan (talk) 18:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

How is it out of context? The author specifically describes her position as anti-science and anti-vaccine, "The media has been complicit in spreading some of anti-vaccine misinformation. Sometimes it comes straight from the media itself, such as the credulous, anti-science, anti-vax CBS reporter Sharyl Attkisson." No context removed. The commentary regarding Attkisson was regarding her reporting as part of the media promoting anti-vaccination. Neither the source, nor does the proposed text, tie Attkisson to the Whooping cough or any "detrimental effect", so again, this is a non sequitur as no one is arguing that position. Please stay on topic and stop arguing against straw man arguments. Yobol (talk) 18:46, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

On topic? This is far off topic to my exact point. You, Yobol, wish to inject a theory that you agree with that The Media® is anti-vaccination. Can I go into a different article and write a sentence about "The liberal media thinks that..." or "Media wants you to believe..." No, I cannot. Your editing this article has a very visible POV, and it is clear that your position is in no way to support a neutral biography of Sharyl Attkisson, but to make sure that and idea that you support is placed into the article. That is more conflict of interest than if she edited the article herself. Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox for us drop one sentence into biographies because it relates to our promotion of a particular self POV. It is your position that is a red herring, because it gets people to focus on a single issue rather than the overall tone, comprehension, and accuracy in presenting a biography. Keegan (talk) 19:29, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Keegan can you come back to the specific content article content that you originally claimed was UNDUE becuase it was from only one source. We now have multiple sources supporting the analysis of Attkissons coverage of the issue and so at this point it is seeming that it is UNDUE to NOT include those criticisms in the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 19:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. I would also suggest Keegan should follow our behavioral guidelines by commenting on the content, not the contributor as well. If Keegan feels I have a true conflict of interest, they can certainly take this up on WP:COIN, but I would prefer to stay on content in resolving this dispute. Yobol (talk) 19:48, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) A sentence or two seems proportionate for a minority position, and RedPen correctly notes that BLP specifically allows minority opinions from reliable sources. On the other hand, is it too tiny a minority (isolated criticism) or too trivial an issue at all (overall significance) for the article topic? I dispute Keegan's assertion that we should base our decision on the underlying sources the cited ref uses--we now have an expert that appears to endorse the position himself by re-reporting it, highlighting it as an example of his own position, without criticism or substantial counter-evidence for that source. It's the reliability of the source we cite (the usual expert-opinion or other WP:RS requirements as usual) that matters. If our medical expert wants to write in support of nonsense or fringe rather than mainstream (note, I am not making judgement about the case at hand) or base his position on a bunch of poor sources, well then that makes the nonsense or fringe more notable and worthy of inclusion because now an expert apparently agrees with it. That's exactly how secondary sourcing works: because we are not experts, rely on those who are to help highlight what is significant or a notable example of...whatever. What's left to decide I think is whether this particular reliable source really is endorsing the position that Attkisson is a notable example of this position on vaccines--nobody seems to dispute that Salzberg is generally qualified to statements that carry weight per RS or that the media portrayal of vaccines and inter-related social issues are notable. DMacks (talk) 15:45, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

One sentence + one source + recent news = Undue weight. I am not reading any argument here relative to why it should be included in her biography in such a manner. Keegan (talk) 18:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

are you suggesting that we remove all other content from this article that has only one source as it would also then be UNDUE. -- The Red Pen of Doom 18:43, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

i dont think there is even evidence that the criticism of her reporting on vaccines is a minority position. the criticism seems pretty well be the prevailing scientific view of such coverage, although I dont know that the criticism has been widely applied specifically to her. -- The Red Pen of Doom 15:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I see no evidence that her occasionally reporting on vaccines gives her a position whatsoever, or how it merits inclusion in her Misplaced Pages biography aside from the fact that a few editors just seem to really, really want it in the article about her without explanation for motive for the overall good of her biography but as yet another platform to talk about the vaccine issues. Unsuitable for Misplaced Pages. Keegan (talk) 18:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Here is Seth Mnookin specifically commenting on her general pattern of reporting on this topic. He appears to be well-regarded for his coverage of the public-health aspects of vaccination, so his writing about it would be a WP:RS expert-opinion. Now it's not just one voice holding her up as an example, and it's not just one story of hers in this area (or one study she just happened to be the one to cover) that drew attention. DMacks (talk) 18:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

(e/c) her anti-vaccine blog gives her an anti-vaccine position. -- The Red Pen of Doom 18:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

The mention in the source is very trivial and passing; I rather think we'll have to cut it. Unless someone can come up with some firmer or more in depth dicussion of her vaccine views. --02:46, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Other than the conjecture of biased and/or conflicted editors, there is no evidence that Attkisson has any anti-vaccine views at all. The term "anti-vaccine" is an agreed-upon propagandist phrase which the vaccine industry and its surrogates apply to anyone who examines vaccine safety, in an attempt to halt independent investigation of vaccine safety scientific questions. It's as inflammatory and misleading of a label as calling someone who is "pro-choice" -- "pro-murder." Merely reporting on vaccine safety issues -- even if the pharmaceutical industry and its surrogates don't like it -- is no more "anti-vaccine" than reporting on Firestone tire safety issues is "anti-tire," or reporting on Congressional corruption is "anti-Congress," or reporting on a dangerous drug is "anti-medicine," or reporting on a charity scandal is "anti-charity." In fact, one could easily make the argument that reporting which results in discussions regarding make vaccines safer is in fact pro vaccine, not anti vaccine. Extreme caution should be used in allowing propagandists or anyone else to perpetuate a potentially false, libellous label regarding a living person who has, in fact, not expressed a position or viewpoint. Simply because many propagandists/bloggers can be found making the same false claims does not make them true (especially when they all come from those on one side in the debate, and do not include the equally vehement opposing views from others in the debate who believe the same reporting is responsible, fair and conducive to a safe vaccination program). At least one of the sources (Dr. Offit) who is mentioned above by those who wish to have a one-sided opinion blog cited in an out-of-context fashion on the bio has been successfully sued for libel regarding his vaccine-related statements at least once in the past, and has already been the subject of a high profile correction regarding false statements he specifically made about Attkisson in the past. Referring to him and others connected to the vaccine industry as though they are "experts" who should be highly regarded, while many opinions to the contrary are disregarded, is unfair. Those who wish to falsely label this reporter as "anti-vaccine" recklessly ignore or disregard quotes from Attkisson's stories such as:

“Merck and the CDC say Gardasil is safe and effective, and that they have not found a link to any deaths. They also say illnesses reported after vaccinations may not have been caused by the shot, and that Gardasil appears safer than most vaccines with 'half the average' reported serious adverse events.”

“Vaccines have saved countless lives, nearly eradicating horrible, deadly and disfiguring diseases that once threatened many Americans.”

“In 1994, the government's Immunization Advisory Committee recommended routine vaccination against hepatitis B virus. It was a widely welcomed strategy to fight a serious and sometimes deadly disease. The CDC currently recommends vaccination for 'all infants, beginning at birth,' people under age 19, and at-risk adults.”

Those who wish to characterize the reporter or reporting as taking a personal position are simply factually incorrect.

As to the writer above who said nobody has disputed that Salzberg is generally qualified to make his statements: consider it disputed, now. Salzberg is called a "computer scientist" in one article, does not know Attkisson personally, mischaracterizes her reporting as stated above, fails to disclose his (and his institution's) own industry financial ties and relationships, and -- most notably -- blames Attkisson in an article on a topic (whooping cough) on which she has never published.

Warning: This Bio is Libelous, Unreliable and Being Used By Special Interests as Propaganda

THIS WILL BE DELETED QUICKLY BUT FOR THE RECORD

All editors please note: this is a formal notice claiming libel regarding actions taken by certain Wiki editors to add a libelous, false, defamatory, conflicted source (author: Saltzman). Among other facts, the sources' institution is heavily funded by pharmaceutical companies, his opinion piece is widely discredited, and some of his statements are provably false per se. The biased editors have shown bad faith, violated Wiki policy, and engaged in tortious interference also by withholding and removing certain context, such as the detail of an award specifically won for fair and accurate investigative reporting on pro-vaccine safety issues, and wide praise for the pro-vaccine safety reporting from many "experts" including medical doctors and a government policy advisor. The biased editors have additionally shown bad faith, violated Wiki policy, and engaged in tortious interference by removing the credible cite from the Orange County Register that shows pharmaceutical-linked interests making similarly blatant false, slanderous statements in the past (corrected in this article): http://www.ocregister.com/articles/correction-296910-dated-entitled.html * These editors demonstrate malice and reckless disregard by keeping the biased and libelous bio material locked on the page and immediately removing any attempt to remove it, add context or otherwise remedy the damage.

• An OC Register article dated Aug. 4, 2008 entitled “Dr. Paul Offit Responds” contained several disparaging statements that Dr. Offit of Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia made about CBS News Investigative Correspondent Sharyl Attkisson and her report. Upon further review, it appears that a number of Dr. Offit’s statements, as quoted in the OC Register article, were unsubstantiated and/or false. Attkisson had previously reported on the vaccine industry ties of Dr. Offit and others in a CBS Evening News report “How Independent Are Vaccine Defenders?” July 25, 2008.

Unsubstantiated statements include: Offit’s claim that Attkisson “lied”; and Offit’s claim that CBS News sent a “mean spirited and vituperative” email “over the signature of Sharyl Attkisson” stating “You’re clearly hiding something.” In fact, the OC Register has no evidence to support those claims. Further, Offit told the OC Register that he provided CBS News “the details of his relationship, and Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia’s relationship, with pharmaceutical company Merck.” However, documents provided by CBS News indicate Offit did not disclose his financial relationships with Merck, including a $1.5 million Hilleman chair he sits in that is co-sponsored by Merck. According to the CBS News’ documentation recently reviewed by the OC Register, the network requested (but Offit did not disclose) the entire profile of his professional financial relationships with pharmaceutical companies including: The amount of compensation he’d received from which companies in speaking fees; and pharmaceutical consulting relationships and fees. The CBS News documentation indicates Offit also did not disclose his share of past and future royalties for the Merck vaccine he co-invented. To the extent that unsubstantiated and/or false claims appeared in the OC Register and have been repeated by other organizations and individuals, the OC Register wishes to express this clarification for their reference and for the record. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.20.11.29 (talk) 02:59, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

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