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Spacing and Using the hidden comment function to create space between a template and text above it

Is it against the Manual of Style (Misplaced Pages) to add a hidden comment () and generate this aesthetic?Curb Chain (talk) 12:27, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

The Manual of Style states: "Check that your invisible comment does not change the formatting, for example by introducing white space in read mode." (WP:COMMENT)

Does this mean that the above formatting should be used? That is, Should white space be introduced between the last line of text and the top of a footer-(navigational) template?Curb Chain (talk) 06:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

I don't think that Hidden Comments should be used to introduce white space because the simple enter-key will suffice. Secondly, using the enter-key to make lines to make white space is arbitrary and is not used.Curb Chain (talk) 22:31, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually it says in the last sentence of Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Layout#Headings and sections: "Between sections (and paragraphs), there should be a single blank line; multiple blank lines in the edit window create too much white space in the article.".Curb Chain (talk) 22:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Having used the technique and found it less than satisfactory, I agree with Curb Chain on this. LynwoodF (talk) 19:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, it shouldn't be used unless there's a consensus. This is a change to layout. Even if not forbidden, if thousands of pages have this introduced and later it is banned, that's a lot of work to find and undo them. Jason Quinn (talk) 20:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

There is no consensus that a space should be introduced. Specifically, WP:COMMENT of WP:Manual of Style states: "Check that your invisible comment does not change the formatting, for example by introducing white space in read mode." and Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Layout#Headings and sections says "Between sections (and paragraphs), there should be a single blank line; multiple blank lines in the edit window create too much white space in the article." which is saying that hidden comments are not to be used to create white space, and not to create white space. Specifically, the vast majority of pages do not have the formatting as I presented in the diffs in Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style#Spacing and Using the hidden comment function to create space between a template and text above it.Curb Chain (talk) 22:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

We should Not use hiddencomments to hack in whitespace.

If it is agreed that whitespace is warranted, then either a proper technical fix is required for all articles that have navboxes (both for site-wide consistency, and to prevent edit-warring), or if small numbers of articles have layout problems in restricted circumstances then two-blank-lines could be used (as we do above stub-templates).

A semi-related proposal was floated at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Layout#Move See also to after External links recently (to make it an optional layout alternative), but doesn't have much support. HTH. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:10, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Simple Misplaced Pages for inspiration

Editors who want a simple manual of style might find inspiration in these pages.

• simple:Misplaced Pages:How to write Simple English pages
• simple:Misplaced Pages talk:How to write Simple English pages
• simple:Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style
• simple:Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style

—Wavelength (talk) 22:29, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

[The first posted message in the fourth page listed (version of 04:59, 3 September 2010) uses the expression "the Complex English Misplaced Pages". That expression is a retronym.
—Wavelength (talk) 02:38, 14 August 2012 (UTC)]

SMOS is not yet ready to be part of MOS

I have removed the template at the head of WP:SMOS that made it a component of MOS. That is premature, and not adequately discussed. No doubt it will be, soon enough. But it is not ready yet, as we can see from the general uncertainties expressed at the talkpage (WT:SMOS). Another consideration: let's not set a dangerous precedent. Already MOS is too big and sprawling, according to Art LaPella (initiator of SMOS) and many other MOS regulars. I'm with them. Although SMOS promises to work against the effects of that sprawl, it may worsen the situation if it is adopted too quickly, encouraging others to be cavalier also.

I have some new concerns: about new editors' experience with those "More" links on the page, but not connected with their styling. I'll raise them here when I have concluded some investigations.

Noetica 01:30, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

What specific concerns do you have about the endorsement of the Simplified MoS that and how would they best be addressed? Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:13, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I am concerned that the size, scope of coverage, level of detail, modes of presentation, and linking régime have not been adequately worked through. And as I say, I am very concerned (along with many editors, I think) not to set a precedent for hasty acceptance of a new MOS page. We may think that this is a special case; others may not. Everyone can think that way about their own favoured sector of the stylosphere.

That's as specific as I need to be, isn't it?

I will say more about the linking. I immediately liked the new "More" markup in principle, but as I noted at Art LaPella's talkpage it would be better at a reduced size. Very intrusive on the page. Now that has been addressed, and there may be more tinkering to come. I think there has been excellent collaboration so far, and I congratulate Art, Telpardec, Neotarf – and everyone involved – for their fine work. But note: nearly all of those "More" links go to some part of WP:MOS, or of another MOS page, or of WP:TITLE and so on. Each time a link is clicked, the whole linked page opens. We have had to live with that unpleasant feature of opaque shortcuts like WP:DASH, WP:SLASH, WP:HYPHEN, and so on. As each of these is followed by an editor pursuing guidance on a cluster of related topics, the whole of WP:MOS is loaded again. Every time. Now, the size of the specific page file is one thing; about 0.5 MB, right? But with the overheads and adjuncts that go with it, we're up around 1 MB each one of those small portions of WP:MOS is sought out. Think of the time this might take, and the monetary cost – in some poorly serviced parts of the world, or with some expensive mobile arrangements. Think of how confusing and alienating these clunky multiple links to the same page must be. Newcomers are not ready for any of that; and we can too easily be unaware of their situation.

Since SMOS is mainly for less experienced editors, this linking problem looms large for SMOS. We want it to get a good reception, and to be used. I am not confident that it is friendly enough yet.

I have been researching new ways with transclusion that offer a solution – to the general problem of linking to parts of MOS (and other Wikispace pages), and especially to the intensified version of it at SMOS. I intend to propose something systematic soon. Meanwhile, there are enough independent reasons to "make haste slowly" for us not to rush SMOS into service just yet. I look forward to the present steady development continuing.

♥

Noetica 02:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that a more integrated hierarchical design would be better. I haven't pushed it much because I'm surprised we got the major improvement we have now, and I'm still afraid it's going to dissolve into bureaucratese. Art LaPella (talk) 21:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

A di M has done sterling work in getting this up and running; but I have a problem with the control of the level of detail in the current draft, and with the total size. I'm thinking about twice the size, and the trimming of some details I'd have thought were not first-line stuff (the biblical, etc). I'm going by the stubs and obvious newbie work I've seen on my gnoming rounds: what are the most important things to get across to them? Tony (talk) 08:25, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I originally went by my own copyediting which is focused on the Main Page. Now, my statistics above do show some things that arguably aren't first-line stuff, but I don't see how "biblical" can be one of them when it's capitalized about 10,000 times. I would think 10,000 mistakes is either a first-line problem or a battle we should surrender. Art LaPella (talk) 21:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

The editors at Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser/Typos can change "Biblical" to "biblical" in 10,000 instances.

—Wavelength (talk) 21:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that means you don't want "biblical" in SMOS. If so, it shouldn't be in MoS either; don't call it a problem if we don't want to fix it. Since uncapitalizing "biblical" could conceivably be considered irreverent, an even stronger case could be made for removing things like seasons, comma splices, compass points, and anything else I learned in high school from the MoS. Of course neither MoS nor the Typos project has solved the "biblical" problem. Art LaPella (talk) 22:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

No, it does not mean that. In fact, I prefer the capitalized spelling of that word. I checked one dictionary, and it accepts both. However, out of respect for what seems to be established consensus, I offered a remedy for occurrences that do not conform to that consensus.

These statements are not mutually exclusive.

• The editors at WP:AWB/T can change "Biblical" to "biblical" in 10,000 instances.
• Other editors can change "Biblical" to "biblical" without using Misplaced Pages:AutoWikiBrowser.
• WP:MOS can restrict the spelling to the uncapitalized version.
• WP:SMOS can restrict the spelling to the uncapitalized version.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:40, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• "I think that means you don't want "biblical" in SMOS. If so, it shouldn't be in MoS either ...". The logical conclusion is that SMOS should exclude nothing from MoS. The whole idea is to decide on strict rationing. Biblical might be a problem in 10,000 instances, but it seems just too specific here. An editor will have easy recourse to the main section on capitalisation in MoS. In SMOS, I'd have thought the goal was to capture the low-hanging fruit. Otherwise its function is weakened. Tony (talk) 02:59, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Actually, my thought wasn't that SMOS should exclude nothing from MoS. It was that if we exclude "biblical" because it's more like a typo than a style issue, then the same logic applies to excluding it from MoS.
• "it seems just too specific here. An editor will have easy recourse ..." Assuming you don't want "Capitalization: see MoS" (that wouldn't solve anything), I can't imagine a more general statement about capitalization that would really be used. "Capitalize proper nouns"? The only really good definition for proper nouns is something to capitalize. SMOS is often more specific than MoS. It has instructions that might actually be used, even without reading the long version, because they don't require gurus for interpretation: "Write 12,000 for twelve thousand, not 12.000", not "Hyphenation involves many subtleties that cannot be covered here" (does that mean you expect everybody to go looking for subtleties, as if they haven't read enough style guidelines already?)
• "Its function is weakened"? Well, the MoS has failed its intended function 10,000 times, so that would seem to be as good a function for the SMOS as any. Art LaPella (talk) 04:02, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Typographical-error issues and style issues intersect (overlap); they are not mutually exclusive. An error in capitalization can result from inattentiveness in keyboarding; likewise, it can result from inattention to style guidelines.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:52, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Right; we were discussing "it shouldn't be in MoS either", which was before your clarification. Art LaPella (talk) 22:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Perhaps what's really missing is an overall link from SMOS#Capitalization to MOS:#Capitalization, if someone is looking for specific capitalization issues not listed at SMOS. And similarly for other paragraphs. But I don't think the answer to everything is to direct everyone to MoS. "Biblical" is a major example of how that isn't working. Art LaPella (talk) 04:09, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem with Biblical is that there are so many other specific examples of capping or not capping that could go in ... there's no end to it. And there's so much of a generic nature that is missing. Tony (talk) 03:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The first 100 Google hits for "George" in Misplaced Pages are all capitalized. Same for "Chicago". But "biblical" is about 1/3 capitalized. There's a difference. That's how I found my "end to it". Practicality. Fix what needs fixing. (Assuming "Biblical" really needs fixing; dictionaries show about equal preference for "biblical" and "Biblical", but that's your job, not mine.) Is anything generic (or non-generic) missing that can be expressed in one short sentence, that's usable by non-experts without needing a guru to interpret it and without yielding to the temptation to write paragraphs of exceptions, and that has 10,000 examples that need fixing? Art LaPella (talk) 05:48, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Or maybe we need to discuss the good faith assumption underlying my statistics, that Manual of Style guidelines should have some measurable effect on Misplaced Pages, not just give us prestige as style experts. Art LaPella (talk) 05:56, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Let's forget any moral imputation surrounding MoS—it's there to give licence to editors to fix things, and as a reference to avoid edit-wars in articles out there. Tony (talk) 23:51, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Then let's fix things. Is there a better idea with the potential to fix 10,000 alleged errors with one sentence? Art LaPella (talk) 00:55, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Capitalization discussion

There is a dicussion and RfC concerning capitalization at Talk:Information technology#.7B.7Bmain.7D.7D case that may be of relevance to one or more sections or subpages of WP:MOS. --Boson (talk) 10:25, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages" in italics

Editors may be interested in User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 113#Misplaced Pages in italics (version of 19:42, 20 August 2012), which has a link to Talk:Misplaced Pages#Italic title (version of 00:47, 20 August 2012), which has a link to Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting#'Misplaced Pages' is not in italics (version of 00:46, 20 August 2012).
—Wavelength (talk) 20:04, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

The first discussion has been archived to User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 113#Misplaced Pages in italics.
—Wavelength (talk) 15:15, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Date ranges in the same decade?

Hello,

I just came across the date range "1952–4" in an article, and the formatting seems strange to me. "1952–54" looks more correct to me, but I couldn't find anything on it in the Manual of Style (except in the Talk archive, where there is a discussion about the more common form 2000–04 vs. the explicit 2000–2004 in article text; see Year truncation in Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)/Archive_41). Is there a rule for such (year) date ranges within the same decade?

Thanks for letting me know,

--Georgepauljohnringo (talk) 08:45, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

MOSNUM says, "A closing CE or AD year is normally written with two digits (1881–86) unless it is in a different century from that of the opening year, in which case the full closing year is given (1881–1986)." Good advice, in my opinion. Tony (talk) 11:58, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree. Normal representation would be with two digits. Vertium _{and done} 13:15, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks, Tony and Vertium! I somehow missed this part of MOSNUM. Now I know.

--Georgepauljohnringo (talk) 14:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The Gambia

Colleagues, I was surprised to find the old "the" in the article name. The Ukraine. The Sudan. I believe the original meaning was "the X region". It's billed as the official country-name, and English as the official language. Is it mandatory that we use the "The" in the title? Also, I see that the t is capped in the middle of sentences. What's our line on that? Tony (talk) 09:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

It is my understanding that The Gambia is the official name (at least in English) as promulgated by whatever political authorities in that country are responsible for doing so, and that Gambia is the older name, now deprecated. Given that (if I am right about it, which I may not be), I think it is clear that the The must be capitalized, because it is part of a proper name, as with The Hague. --Trovatore (talk) 09:48, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

When it comes to the name, I'd always try to follow country profiles in reliable sources - both the CIA World Factbook and BBC entries for Gambia formally include the "The". I'd look at those instead of - or rather as well as - looking at purely official names. Those two examples are not of course definitive, but they show it's not unusual in publications that are doing a similar thing to what we are doing with our country pages. They don't for Ukraine and Sudan, where inclusion of the definite article is deprecated nowadays and comes across as archaic (for Ukraine, AFAIK because they felt it belittled the country's status, giving the impression of it being merely a region/republic of the old USSR). As for whether to capitalise it in mid-sentence text, my preference would be not to, even if it is formally part of the name. Current guidelines also prefer generally not to capitalise, although (as noted above - edit conflict) the specific example given of The Hague in fact suggests an exception here too, assuming we accept it as part of the name. N-HH talk/edits 09:53, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the point about the RSs is a reasonable one — we don't let companies, or even individuals, dictate everything about the typography of their names, so I'm not sure why we should do more for states. I do think though that the capital-t is pretty much obligatory here; our preference is for not over-capitalizing, but you have to capitalize proper names. --Trovatore (talk) 09:57, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd look to country profiles specifically on the point of including the "The" at all; then to our style guide, rather than those profiles, for whether to capitalise it in text. General rules vary of course - for example, you'll find the Guardian does not capitalise newspaper "the"s, even when they are more formally part of the name. But it too calls for caps in placenames (The Hague seems to be a popular example ... although just to confuse things there, the page including the note on the Gambia calls for the "the" but seems to suggest it not be capitalised). N-HH talk/edits 10:37, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

It's a point of general English usage rather than our style guides specifically. If it's being used in its normal grammatical function as an article, then it's lowercase, but if it's part of a proper noun (which I think it is), then it's uppercase. I wouldn't really put too much weight on The Grauniad. --Trovatore (talk) 10:41, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

All a bit off topic and academic, but my point was merely that it is a style issue, not a clear-cut grammar one with a right or wrong answer, and that styles vary when it comes to capitalising "the" in various contexts, even when it is arguably part of a proper name/noun. See the Telegraph's view on this when it comes to newspapers as against the Guardian's. The former capitalises the "the" when it considers it part of the name (so The Daily Telegraph, but the Daily Mail; similarly, our page titles drop the article for the Mail, in recognition that it does not technically form part of the name), while the Guardian, as highlighted already, has blanket lower case regardless. Nor was my point of course that we should follow the Guardian on this or any other issue - athough it is a perfectly respectable style guide for a major national UK newspaper - it was merely an example that demonstrates the point about variation. N-HH talk/edits 11:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

• I don't have the link, but the Beatles' insistence on capped T irritated a lot of editors here when it was last discussed, about ?two years ago. To me, the cap mid-sentence is a bump: disruptive. Also could be seen as pretentious. I know that some universities are going around insisting on it too (I'm only too pleased to defy that wish). Tony (talk) 11:53, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see it as a "bump" but as just part of the name. The link to the guide from The Telegraph that N-HH gives looks like that one gets it right for newspapers: If the The is on the newspaper's masthead, then it's part of the name and uppercase; if the masthead omits it but you put it in a sentence because it sounds wrong without it (the Los Angeles Times) then it's lowercase. Names other than those of newspapers don't always have as convenient an indicator as a masthead, but the same principle should apply. --Trovatore (talk) 19:14, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Trans women

Current proposal to modify MOS:IDENTITY is here.

I know this has been brought up many times before, but now I feel it needs to be brought up again, because I have one comment still:

We know that the trans woman template says that trans women should be referred to with she/her throughout. However, go to Talk:Alexis Reich. It appears that there are still some Wikipedians who disagree. They say that trans women should be referred to as he/him if they are notable for reasons that have nothing to do with being transsexual that relate to their life before the operation. (Yesterday I tried to see if anyone could notice this, but the discussion didn't go beyond me and User:Berean Hunter. He absolutely supports the statement in the sentence I wrote above beginning with "They say that..." and I want to know what other people think currently. Georgia guy (talk) 12:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I find that the best way to explain this is that back before the gender transition, Lara W. thought herself to be male but she was wrong. It's as if a country music singer always thought she was born in Memphis but then looks up her birth certificate and finds out that she was really born in Nashville. Even if the old sources say "Memphis native Claribelle Johnson," we should still say "Claribelle Johnson was born in Nashville." New information has come to light. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:08, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

The issue of "biological" gender (XX, XY etc.) v. "brain" gender is not going to be solved very soon. And certainly not by Misplaced Pages. From the moment a person is declared legally a different gender from their biological gender, the references from that point should be to her "legal gender". Mainly because the reliable sources used for any prior time would, perforce, refer to the person's legal gender at the time the source was written. Misplaced Pages is not a time machine, nor is it a place to argue "real gender" of a person anymore than it is a place to argue "real religion" or "real ethnicity." The birthplace analogy is, of course, inapt because we are not arguing that the person's biological gender was changed at birth. It can't. So what we should do is simply follow what the rules say - we use reliable sources and cite their words, and do not try to add our judgements to them. Collect (talk) 13:20, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I've added a note at the top of this thread to link to the current proposal.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:25, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

RFC: shall changes in beginning of sentence case be allowed in quotations?

• Discussion unarchived for further discussion before it is closed by an uninvolved admin. See WP:ANRFC]. Cunard (talk) 17:58, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Shall case changes in quotations be allowed at the beginning of a quoted sentence? For example, suppose the following sentence is to be quoted:

A penny saved is a penny earned.

May it be quoted in a Misplaced Pages article as follows:

*If an entire sentence is quoted in such a way that it becomes a grammatical part of the larger sentence, the first letter loses its capitalization (It turned out to be true that "a penny saved is a penny earned").

The bullet above appeared in the MOS until today. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:15, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion of case changes in quotes

Allow changes. As the initiator of this RFC, I support allowing changes as formerly described in the MOS because it is in accord with two American style manuals that I have access to. In particular, Chicago Manual of Style 16th ed. section 13.8 and the Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association 6th ed. section 6.07 allow this type of change. However, the third style manual I have, MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers 7th ed. in section 3.1.2 shows this example:

Joseph Conrad writes of the company manager in Heart of Darkness, "He was obeyed, yet he inspired neither love nor fear, nor even respect."

Jc3s5h (talk) 22:14, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Surely it is a basic rule that a direct quote that incorporates the beginning of the speaker's sentence preserves the capital letter needed to start that sentence. Evident in all these first pages on the first google page of a search of "grammar of direct quotes": Kevin McE (talk) 23:02, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the one you are arguing is not a good example of the last point in Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style#Allowable typographical changes, but I also agree with that point that a sentence-initial quote can be downcased under the stated conditions. The MOS specifies that as an allowable style, at least, so if you want to change it, talk about the guidance instead of tweaking the examples. In the other stuff you're changing, either you don't understand or don't like WP:LQ, but that's the style we've adopted. Some have argued that LQ is a UK thing, and you're arguing the opposite; but it's neither; just a style. Dicklyon (talk) 23:35, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

It is not just a style. In British English it's right and in American English it's wrong. Leaving periods and commas outside the quotation marks absolutely is a British thing, whatever else it may be. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The "as formerly described in the MOS" situation has been restored; it should only be changed if there's a new consensus to NOT allow lowercase at the start of the quote in sentences like the example with "a penny saved". The quote about Conrad does not appear to be the type where downcasing is in order; it's just a quote, not an integral part of the sentence. Dicklyon (talk) 23:41, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Maintain current MoS for now. It seems to me that there is something different between "a penny saved is a penny earned" and "He said, 'He was obeyed, yet he inspired neither love nor fear.'" I can't put my finger on it, but the two groups of style guides seem to be describing two different things. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

In general, as I pointed out in a section higher up, capitalization can be changed in direct quotes to match the surrounding material, which may mean either capitalizing a previously lowercase letter or removing the capitalization from a previously uppercase letter. One rule I have seen is to use a capital if the quoted material is a full sentence and independent of the rest of the sentence with the quote:

He said, "Leave me alone."

but not if the rest of the sentence depends grammatically on the quoted material:

It is vital to "be content with your life", as Aesop's moral directs.

In any case this is not a matter of grammar, as someone suggested above, it is entirely a matter of style. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Certainly quotes used as direct speech (where the punctuation may indeed be described as 'speech marks') should rarely have or need (depending on one's point of view) their capitalization changed, whereas in indirect speech, where the quotation marks serve more to delineate the portion of the text that is word for word attributable to the source, more leeway will be both needed and, generally used. Rich Farmbrough, 03:13, 25 July 2012 (UTC).

Maintain current MoS. The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (p. 1029) gives a similar example, with no capitalization following "Mr Crabb stated that ' . . .", describing the construction as a blend of direct and indirect reported speech: " . . . the reporting verb is followed by that, normally a marker of indirect reporting, but what follows that itself is wholly quoted. --Boson (talk) 09:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Maintain current MoS (allow changes), for the same reasons as above. Although in the little sequence of reverts between Deor, Jc3s5h, and Kevin McE, I would have to agree with Deor and Kevin McE; there the "The situation is..." is an example of a quotation that is not "a grammatical part of the larger sentence". Leonxlin (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Allow changes conditionally: Like most dichotomies "allow or disallow" is a false one. It should be permissible to do this to aphorisms like the penny example, and with spoken quotations, but not with written ones in which capitalization is provably in the original source. An exception should probably be poems and songs which capitalize the first letter of every line (usually) as a matter of stylistic convention, not grammar. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 04:04, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

• • Retain. It's hard to think of instances where the fact that a mid-sentence quote started the original sentence really needs to be communicated to the readers. Tony (talk) 04:35, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: If there's a question about the propriety of changing the capitalization, many times you could consider starting the quotation with the next word. For instance, why not just say, "It turned out to be true that a 'penny saved is a penny earned'" if you're worried about (not) capitalizing the "a"? AgnosticAphid talk 22:36, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

• Retain I think it makes a lot of sense to keep as it is. It just visually flows a lot better to me for some reason, like it would help me to read it aloud better if I had to. I dream of horses (T) @ 02:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
• Discussion unarchived for further discussion before it is closed by an uninvolved admin. See WP:ANRFC]. Cunard (talk) 17:58, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. Standard practice is to use square brackets when changing a quote. So if the source says: "A penny saved is a penny earned," we write: "Smith argued that " penny saved is a penny earned." Or if the source says: "Today's the day," we write: "Smith argued that "oday's the day." SlimVirgin 02:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

But within a quotation we do change those angle bracket things some Europeans use for quote-marks, don't we? And we tend to sliently correct double hyphens -- like that, and obvious typos likke this, to avoid disruption to readers. Tony (talk) 03:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

We change obvious mistakes, yes (not sure what the angle brackets refer to). But changing the case is closer to changing a word, because it can slightly distort the context. It can be important, especially when dealing with primary sources in history articles, to stick closely to the original text, and to signal if you haven't. SlimVirgin 03:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Angle bracket things Art LaPella (talk) 04:35, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Style guides have previously been cited to show that the case in quotes can be silently changed. However, it isn't a purely mechanical algorithm; it depends on extent to which the quote is integrated into the sentence. Jc3s5h (talk) 03:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Romanization system indications

Quite apart from questions about a system, how should a romanization system and romanization be specified in an article? I've changed an indefinite mention in Ey Iran from

Ey Iran (Template:Lang-fa, "O Iran") UniPers: Ey Irân is a famous and popular anthem in Iran.

to

Ey Iran (Template:Lang-fa, "O Iran"; UniPers: Ey Irân) is a famous and popular anthem in Iran.

I compared with how the pinyin system is mentioned at the beginning of Beijing. But any detailed look at anything leaves one confused. Like, why is Běijīng linked at all, if it just loops back to the article? Shenme (talk) 00:00, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't retrieve sections from the archives

I have removed an entire section from this page (in this edit). Please, can we not restore old sections from the archives like that, and present them as if they had been visible on the page and never archived? It distorts the record of proceedings here. As a participant in the archived discussion, even I struggled to work out what was going on.

Start a new discussion as appropriate, with judicious reference to and citation of that old section as you see fit.

Thank you! ☺

Noetica 01:16, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

It's standard to retrieve archived sections if the archiving is recent and the section not too long. But I will start a new one as requested. SlimVirgin 02:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Fine, Slim! It's just that the way you did it was confusing, and perhaps it distorted the trajectory of the dialogue. I've been around here since 2005, and it took me a while to figure it out, as I have said. ☺

Noetica 03:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, it is not standard to retrieve archived sections period. It is standard to link archived material if it is archived.Curb Chain (talk) 03:04, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Internal consistency v consistency across articles

Noetica removed these words – "though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole" – from this lead sentence:

An overriding principle is that style and formatting choices should be consistent within a Misplaced Pages article, though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole.

As the lead already mentions internal consistency, this sentence is arguably repetitive without the juxtaposition. More importantly, we don't require consistency across articles, and it's important to stress that. The lead currently implies that we do, or at least does not make clear that we don't:

• "The MoS presents Misplaced Pages's house style, to help editors produce articles with consistent, clear, and precise language, layout, and formatting."

• Consistency in language, style, and formatting promotes clarity and cohesion; this is especially important within an article.

Therefore, the addition of "though not necessarily throughout Misplaced Pages as a whole" (or similar) is needed. SlimVirgin 02:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The first sentence of this section inadvertently misrepresents what happened. The sequence of events (all on 12 August 2012):

• SlimVirgin restored some wording that had been long absent from MOS (diff)
• Curb Chain reverted that restoration (diff)
• Noetica restored what SlimVirgin had added, except for what Curb Chain objected to (diff)

Slim, would you please amend that first sentence? Best to keep the account accurate. ♥
Noetica 07:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Not needed. As these sentences in the lede show, consistency across articles is indeed important. Including your proposal is contradictory and will be a contention of confusion for editors.Curb Chain (talk) 05:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

You are mistaken there. Articles do not have a single standard style. When there are two or more acceptable styles, an article can use either of them: English/British spelling, BC/BCE, date formatting, citation style, etc. (this has been said by arbcom, for example here or here) There is no requirement to make all those articles consistent with each other.

The extra phrase is to prevent people from going in style-fixing sprees when they get the mistaken idea that articles need to be consistent among them. This is a real problem that caused many headaches and arbitration cases. For example Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/jguk_2#Findings_of_fact, where someone tried to ensure BC/BCE consistency across articles. A more recent case is Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Date_delinking where people used scripts to adapt hundreds of articles to their preferred style. --Enric Naval (talk) 06:59, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

No Enric, Curb is not mistaken. As things stand, there is nothing in the Manual to support such a spree. If MOS supported campaigns to impose one style choice uniformly across Misplaced Pages, from among options, it would say so. It would not single out consistency within articles, as it does now. Indeed, it would not present options at all!

Consider three propositions:

P1: There is a hard requirement for consistency within articles, where MOS presents options.

P2: There is no hard requirement for consistency between articles, where MOS presents options.

P3: In groups of articles on similar topics, similar styling is better than an unprincipled or random selection of styles.

Who disagrees with any of those, and why? (Not a rhetorical question.)

We might regard P3 as a motive for our glittering array of subsidiary MOS pages, naming conventions, informal conventions out there in the projects, and so on. It starts as an unspoken presumption; and then, many specialists make it explicit for their own fields.

I think we should not send a message against efforts to unite groups of articles in that established way. I am yet to see an argument that such groups of articles (often cross-linked, often cited together) are improved by a perceived licence for each to take its own independent direction, subject only to the whim of editors narrowly focused on a single article rather than a thematically united group of articles.

Noetica 07:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Noetica's general principles here, but would formulate the propositions to take account of the following.

• for P1 and P2, "where MOS presents options or is silent".
• for P3 I think we should make it clear that consistency is expected for closely-related articles (and try to establish that if anyone is inclined to disagree).

Of course, how closely articles are related can be a matter for discussion. Authors should be relatively free to agree the appropriate scope for any consistency.

Apart from being general common sense, an appropriate degree of consistency both enhances the user experience and makes it easier for editors to make corresponding changes everywhere where they are needed.

Nobody should be able to say "MOS says that articles do not have to be consistent with each other" as a pro forma excuse to block changes among such closely-related articles. At the same time we should emphasise that editors should establish consensus before making extensive changes. --Mirokado (talk) 09:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. The MoS does not require articles, even articles in the same Wikiproject, to match each other, so it is perfectly okay to say so. "Let's make this article match a related one" is not, by itself, sufficient reason for a change in style. However, "I feel like it, I raised it on the talk page, and no one objected within a reasonable time frame," is sufficient reason. To use the language of the thread, we should not put P3 in the MoS. 1. We shouldn't add rules to the MoS unless there is a real reason to do so, like a) said rule is part of the English language or b) adding said rule would solve a non-hypothetical problem and 2. Enric Naval has provided evidence that attempts to enforce cross-article consistency have caused non-hypothetical problems on Misplaced Pages. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:42, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but adding such a rule will allow editors to WP:WIKILAWYER.Curb Chain (talk) 01:17, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

With what do you disagree exactly, Darkfrog? I don't read Mirokado as saying that any version of P3 should be actually included in MOS. P3 is just a proposition that we are invited to consider. On the other hand, if you disagree with P3 itself, will you please tell us why?

I would in effect reverse your judgement on the two reasons you mention, like this:

• "Let's make this article match a related one" presents an excellent reason for a change in style.
• "I feel like it, I raised it on the talk page, and no one objected within a reasonable time frame" is never a sufficient reason for making a change in the style of an article.

To use the reason that you favour (the second reason cited here) is contrary to current provisions in MOS, at MOS:RETAIN:

When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, it is maintained in the absence of consensus to the contrary.

That wording makes good sense. Some talkpages are sparsely attended; but the article in question might have a style that fits well with related articles, for example. A positively expressed consensus should be required, to overturn such valuable consistency.

Noetica 01:33, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with Mirokado's statement, "Nobody should be able to say "MOS says that articles do not have to be consistent with each other" as a pro forma excuse to block changes among such closely-related articles." Yes, they should be able to state that the MoS does not require inter-article consistency and use that to block changes among closely related articles. People should need a reason to make such changes. That reason need not be big. It can be "I feel like it, I raised it on the talk page, and no one objected." However, "We have to make these articles match because they're closely related in subject!" is false. No we don't have to.

I do not believe that we should add P3 to the MoS for the reasons that I stated yesterday. 1) We shouldn't add more rules without a good, non-hypothetical reason. 2) We don't have a good reason to add this rule; E. Naval even showed that we have a good reason not to. If pushing cross-article consistency causes trouble, then we shouldn't require people to push it, even if some people would prefer articles to be written that way.

As for the "I feel like it, I raised it, no one objected" rationale, if only one person has an opinion on the matter, than that person's opinion is the consensus. In that situation, 100% of the people involved would agree. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:04, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The MOS is also a guide and set of pages to indicate to readers/editors which style to use when there are differing styles. We don't make rules to limit peoples' choices for the sake of limiting peoples' choices; we make rules, and the MOS's purpose, to make it easier for viewers to read our articles so there is some sort of consistency and so that readers can expect a sort of userfriendlyness versus a chaotic page-after-page styled encyclopedia. There is a way to block changes where people quote WP:IAR but that requires the use of WP:COMMON.Curb Chain (talk) 19:54, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Maybe that's how it should work, CC, but it's not how it does work. 1. We should assume that anything written down in the MoS will be cited as gospel on article talk pages. 2. Because Misplaced Pages is a crowdsourced encyclopedia, giving people their freedom wherever reasonably possible, as in such proven policies as ENGVAR, allows disparate editors to contribute. Some inconsistency is worth it if it means we don't grossly insult Brits or Canadians or non-native-English-speaking contributors. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:48, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

ENGVAR already is sanctioned at MOS:RETAIN. We don't need this extra statement as it will be used by editors to disrupt pages per their own style.Curb Chain (talk) 13:17, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

It is about other things as well as WP:ENGVAR such as WP:CITE and WP:APPENDIX (and others such as date formats, table formats, quotation styles and any other style of format issue that an editor thinks should be "consistent"), so there is a need for the extra statement over and above the specific ENGVAR. -- PBS (talk)

I disagree with "In groups of articles on similar topics, similar styling is better than an unprincipled or random selection of styles." this has never been a requirement. The problem is what is a group? For example it could be argued that all articles about any subject within the countries of the EU should use British English/Irish English because the EU does. Or all articles on NATO (except those specifically about Britain and Canada) should use American English because the US is by far the largest contributor to NATO and therefore most articles about NATO are about American topics, and As NATO is deployed in Kosovo and Kosovo is not a member of th EU all articles about Kosova should be in American English. This type of argument has never been accepted.

One can see the fun one can have with arguments such as if its in a category its grouped in that category therefore it has to be consistent with all the other articles that appear in that category (An editor at the moment is using that as a justification for using his preferred spellings and ignoring usage in reliable sources). When an article appears in two categories then in which "group" does it belong?

This is why the MOS has only ever agreed that consistency should within an article, not across "groups" of articles.

I am with SV, EN and Darkfrog24 on this one. If as has been said "SlimVirgin restored some wording that had been long absent from MOS" then as it is a sentence that sums up a lot of Arbcom decisions, when was it deleted who deleted it and what was the justification given on this talk page for the deletion? -- PBS (talk) 10:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

That's a task for the history search where I pick half way between the latest and earliest version and see if the sentence was present or not and continue this process until I find the version where it was taken out. It doesn't always work, because there could be reverts in between or it could have been added and removed multiple times, but usually it does work. What instances where there that people were changing spelling styles according to like articles and not according to reliable sources?Curb Chain (talk) 20:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

But you miss the point, PBS. Please read the exchanges above with more care. The core suggestion is not they we insert P3 in MOS: "In groups of articles on similar topics, similar styling is better than an unprincipled or random selection of styles." I must say, I would be amazed if anyone disagreed with it as a statement considered in isolation. Do you disagree with it? In other words, do you prefer "an unprincipled or random selection of styles" in a group of articles (however defined)? For example, would you prefer that within a group of obviously related literary articles, these two forms be randomly selected: Dickens' novels; Dickens's novels?

With respect, PBS: perhaps you have neatly demonstrated the kind of confusion MOS should avoid inadvertently promoting, in the matter of consistency. Do not conflate "this has never been a requirement" and "this is a bad thing". Those problems you discuss with defining "group" are not weighty. Any competing systematic groupings among articles can be resolved by the appropriate projects, and agreements can be reached. Only if we actively seek difficulties, or manufacture them, can we expect possessive apostrophes to emerge as a casus belli in thematic groups of articles. Editors will generally prefer a consistent look and feel – and take pride not just in a single article but in the appealingly uniform style that greets the reader who follows links to similar ones.

That said, I have always favoured more singularity and less optional variability in MOS guidelines. Apart from British versus American, en dash versus em dash, and some other inevitable diversity, most variability in fundamental style is avoidable and detrimental. The community really does appreciate a well-considered standard that will settle disputes at the 4,000,000 articles. Look, I always prefer the spaced en dash for sentence punctuation, and always will. But I cheerfully use the em dash instead: and that includes across related articles, not just within them. If I got militant about it and sought to promote en dash regardless of such broad coherence, I would be doing a disservice to the readers. Let's all avoid such militancy; and let's not carelessly promote it by including unnecessary text that people will misread, and will use to justify disruption. And the fewer kinds of variability we have at the most basic level of style, the fewer opportunities we give to militants.

Noetica 21:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Additional discussion

I just want to note that I agree that User:Noetica was correct in removing the discussion that User:SlimVirgin started by pulling the archive instead of linking it, but some comments had been added when she restarted the discussion:Curb Chain (talk) 03:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Never mind, Curb. SlimVirgin acted completely in good faith. I only objected because the way she did it left things unclear. I think it would often be fine to restore something had very recently been archived, and to put a clear explanation at the top. I do think that one is generally then expected to join in the discussion that one has wanted restored. I don't see that happening.
☺ Noetica 20:03, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Hyperlinks in quotations

As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader.
Could someone explain this to me please? How does a (piped) link clutter a quotation? At worst, it changes the color of some words. The proposed remedies add much more clutter than that. Links do not really change the quotations much; the text remains the same after all. And how does it confuse the reader? Are readers really likely to think the original quotation contained links to Misplaced Pages articles? On the other hand, a reader might benefit from being pointed to an article that explains in details some concepts mentioned in a quotation. So why is linking from within quotes a bad thing? — Kpalion 21:26, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I've always assumed the main problem is that it can impart meaning and explanation to words within the quote that we cannot know were meant by the original source. Words and phrases in different contexts can always have subtly different meanings of course. In effect, they can be seen as adding implicit commentary or didactic explanation directly within the quotation. N-HH talk/edits 21:50, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Nicely put by N-HH. Tony (talk) 10:58, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

But then, almost everything we write in Misplaced Pages consists (in principle) of paraphrases and summaries of (reliable) external sources. Doesn't linking impart meaning and explanation to what cannot know was meant by the original source also when it is not a direct quote? — Kpalion 11:18, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

There might be grounds for suggesting caution in such links, but I see no reason for the strength of the virtual prohibition as it stands. Most people who we are quoting are trying to communicate clearly (and we probably shouldn't be quoting them if they are not), and there is usually little doubt about who/what they are referring to. Suggest rephrase to something like Exercise caution in linking from within quotes, and never do so if it would mislead or confuse the reader, or if there is any realistic doubt about the intended reference of the person being quoted. Kevin McE (talk) 12:10, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that would really change that much in terms of ultimate guidance - which, in part, is why I wouldn't have a problem with that wording. As for Kpalion's point, of course most WP content is paraphrased and summarised, and even interpreted/explained to some extent, both by narrative text and by linking. The point is that we don't pretend otherwise with that content. It is, in effect, Misplaced Pages speaking - and the editor who wrote that content knows what they meant and hence what they wish a link to point to. However, when we do quote a third party directly, and flag up that we are doing that by using inverted commas, we have to be careful we do exactly that and don't make the quotee say or imply more than they might have done or appear to be referring to something different; especially, for example, by using piped links from quotations. The very fact that many pages have disambiguation hatnotes also shows the potential problems here - for the sake of example, when someone in a quote refers, say, to "Germany", do they mean Germany or one of the first options listed here? N-HH talk/edits 13:26, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

All of which is reason for caution, not prohibition. If Roy Hodgson says, "The match against Germany will be a tricky challenge, but I'm sure my team can cope," can there really be any encyclopaedic argument against linking that to Germany? Kevin McE (talk) 23:20, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, there is the matter of the appallingly ungrammatical title of the linked article. --Trovatore (talk) 23:57, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

There is actually a more serious objection even though I do very seriously object to the completely ungrammatical locution Germany team, it isn't really on point here, which is WP:EGG. A reader who sees Germany in blue is entitled to expect that the link points to Germany. If it points somewhere else, there need to be explicit cues in the text producing that expectation. This one is a little borderline — a reader who thinks about it will probably expect that this link points to the article on the German team, but it is not quite automatic. --Trovatore (talk) 00:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

In which case the encyclopaedia would be doing such a naive reader a favour, by clarifying that Mr Hodgson does not intend sending 11 men to take on the entire nation of 80 million. This sort of objection would lead to the prohibition of any piped or disambiguated link, regardless of whether they are within a quote. Your other issue would apply to c200 national football teams, plus at least as many again of women's and underage teams, plus many hundreds of national teams in other sports. If you are serious about it, I'd suggest raising discussion in the first instance at WT:FOOTY. Kevin McE (talk) 09:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

No one is going to think that a soccer team is being sent to confront an entire country; that isn't the point. There's a fundamental principle of interface design involved here, the least surprise principle. Users should be able to predict the topic that a link points to, without following the link or hovering over it. And if you see the word Germany in blue here, it is not really clear where it will point, because some editor might well have thought that this was a good opportunity to inform readers about good old Deutschland. (Such an editor would have been wrong, but not in a terribly unlikely way.)

Piped links are, indeed, very often problematic, and should be used as sparingly as possible, Links that would otherwise go to disambig pages are one example where they are almost unavoidable, but care needs to be taken to make it as clear as conveniently possible, from the text alone, where the link points (without of course performing awkward contortions or using self-referential language). This kind of care is almost impossible to get into a direct quote. --Trovatore (talk) 18:33, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

United States Military Date Proposal

A discussion on the encyclopedic need for the use of military dates on United States military related articles is taking place at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Proposal to strike out the requirement that American military articles use military dates. Please join in.--JOJ 23:59, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Even if the article is on a military subject, it should still be written in an encyclopedic style. "Write for your audience" covers that. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:40, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Punctuation of initials in names

An editor moved the article E. L. James, about the British author, to EL James, with the rationale that "None of the use the full stops and neither do most of the British media. 'Initial. Initial. Surname' is outdated in the UK". I moved it back because (as I explained on the Talk page) I looked at 3 UK sources and 3 US sources, and in both groups 2 out of 3 seemed to use the periods. It's true, however, that James' own website and the covers of her books uses "E L James."

Is there a relevant guideline here that would affect whether periods, or spaces, should be used? Or does it come down to the usual guidance about what's used more often in reliable sources and/or what the subject uses in referring to herself? Thanks for any guidance. Theoldsparkle (talk) 13:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

U.S. English tends to prefer periods in initials and abbreviations (U.S., Dr. Smith, Ph.D.) when British English does not (US, Dr Smith). This might be an ENGVAR issue. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:04, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (people)#Middle names and abbreviated names (version of 00:32, 24 July 2012) and Harry S. Truman#Personal life (version of 23:03, 21 August 2012).

—Wavelength (talk) 19:42, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Number sign

The MOS says:

• Avoid using the # symbol (known as the number sign, hash sign, or pound sign) when referring to numbers or rankings. Instead use the word "number", or the abbreviation "No." The abbreviation is identical in singular and plural. For example:

Incorrect:	Her album reached #1 in the UK album charts.
Correct:	Her album reached No. 1 in the UK album charts.

An exception is issue numbers of comic books, which unlike for other periodicals are given in general text in the form #1, unless a volume is also given, like Volume 2, Number 7 or Vol. 2, No. 7.

• Use {{Abbr|Vol.|Volume}} and either {{Abbr|No.|Number}} or {{Abbr|#|Number}}.
• Do not use the symbol №.

Can we expand this section to include the reason # is considered wrong in Misplaced Pages?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I also wouldn't mind knowing what's wrong with the numero sign. — Jon C. 15:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Maybe WP:TECHNICAL is the issue. Many older people don't know what a # is. Regards, Sun Creator 15:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)