Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:18, 30 April 2006

For older discussions see User talk:Seabhcan/archive01 or User talk:Seabhcan/archive02

RE: Irish Sea

Sir,

• 1) Can you sign you entries on "talk" pages?
• 2) Titling an entry, "Notes for myself", is not very user friendly. How about "stats to enter"?
• 3) You also don't seem to enter abbreviated notes into the "edit" line on most of your changes, can you do this? This makes it easier for other users when check their “watchlist” and history of a page.
• 4) Can we use both your map and my map? Maybe put mine at the top just to show location, then yours under "Shipping" to show where the ports are.
  • When I saw these sloppy omissions I was very surprised to find that you were and admin.

WikiDon 21:15, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you're correct that I should have used a different title for my rough work in the talk page. The article seemed to me to be quite neglected when I began, and I wrongly imagined that I was the only one working on it (the last 11 edits have been my own and the last message on the talk page was from 2003). Your point 4 is reasonable, but if the intention is to show the sea's location, perhaps a more 'zoomed out' map of Europe would be better. Also, if you are interested in Irish subjects, please drop into Misplaced Pages:Irish Wikipedians' notice board. Seabhcán 21:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Category:SeabcanPics

Using username-based organization is an improper use of the category scheme, AIUI. Ive added a CFD notice, but havent yet made a report on it, hoping you might just take care of it yourself. -St|eve 04:07, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that was an experiment of mine a year or so ago. It is now deleted, along with the Template:Seabhcan/Pics. I have reverted the images in this category to public domain. Seabhcán 07:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

DYK

Did you know? has been updated. A fact from the article Irish nationality law, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently-created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Too many capitals

I think you're puttting too many capital letters in section headings; specifically, in Irish nationality law, your wrote "See Also" where "See also" (with a lower-case a) should appear according to Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, and Constitutional History where Constitutional history (with a lower-case initial h) should appear. Michael Hardy 20:57, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Template:Seabhcan

Do you still use this template? It looks like a templatized version of ~~~~. I wanted to ask you to userfy it, rather than me putting it on WP:TFD. Thanks. ∞Who?¿? 09:36, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

I just deleted it. Thanks. Seabhcán 09:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Pat Robertson

Somebody deleted my entry on this subject from the 22nd, and when you added it for the 23rd, I just deleted it because I assumed it was still there from yesterday, when I added it. My bad for not having rechecked that. I don't really want to dig through the edit history to see who deleted it, but I have restored it, and redeleted your version, since mine was there first. I know, sounds kind of petty and I'm not really going to go into an edit war on it, but it would be interesting to find out who deleted it and why, but not interesting enough to read through all of the edits since then.  :) Zoe 21:55, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Looks like my fault. When I added it to 23nd I didn't notice that it was down at the end of 22nd. User:Irishpunktom removed the 22nd entry after that. Seabhcán 22:02, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK/Wikimania 2006

Hi, this is a circular to Wikipedians in Ireland to draw your attention to Wikimedia UK, where the establishment of a local Wikimedia chapter for the United Kingdom (and possibly for the Republic of Ireland) is being discussed. See the talk page, as well as the mailing list; a meetup will take place to discuss matters in London in September, for anyone who can get there. On another topic, plans are being drawn up for a UK bid for Wikimania 2006, which would be conveniently close to Ireland. On the other hand, Dublin's bid was one of the final three last year - might we bid again? --Kwekubo 19:34, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

DYK

Did you know? has been updated. A fact from the article U.S. border preclearance, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently-created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Ireland

I have created the category Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: Ireland, please add yourself to an institution or create a new category for your institution if neccessary. If you need help leave a message on my talk page. Spread the word. Djegan 00:33, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Arthur Quinlan

In the article your wrote on Arthur Quinlan, you wrote "He has interviewed every US president from Harry Truman to George Bush". It is not clear from the context whether you meant George H. W. Bush (41st US President), or George W. Bush (43rd US President). Could you please edit the article and change the reference to one or the other? Thanks --Rogerd 01:49, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Science pearls

Hello,

Since you contributed in the past to the publications’ lists, I thought that you might be interested in this new project. I’ll be glad if you will continue contributing. Thanks,APH 09:38, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Pat Cox

Thanks for your correction on List of Limerick people - I guess this demonstrates the problem with using Misplaced Pages as your reference :) I'll add a mention of his Limerick origins to the Pat Cox article. --Ryano 11:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome. I remember Pat Cox took part in the "I'm from Limerick" promotion film that was shown in Limerick cinemas before each movie for a couple of weeks in 2003 or 2004. The film was produced by Mike Finn and lasted about 5 minutes, made up of a series of clips of famous people from Limerick smiling and saying "I'm from Limerick". It was curious film - designed to promote pride in the city amoung Limerick's citizens - who are unfortunately amoung the most anti-Limerick people there are. (I've been guilty of this too). Interestingly, I noticed that most of the famous people became famous only after leaving Limerick... Seabhcán 11:54, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Internet

Well done on the Commerce Dept tie in, I had struggled for that dynamic in my rewrite and you got it perfect.Kyle Andrew Brown 15:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the complement. Seabhcán 15:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Irish people

I have no objection to the merger, but what shall be the title of the new article? Fergananim 19:01, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

There once was an article on Limerick

That is exactly the sort of thing that I was asking about. It really didn't need to be overly detailed, but I felt that the historical gap was too apparent, after the sequential sections before it, to go on as an FA without something there. What's there now is far more than adequate, so I switched over to full support. Incidentally, I'm reading (to my shame) Neal Stephenson's novel The Confusion, and it has a description of William's battles in Ireland. Not, of course, that there is much point in going into "historical fiction of William III's campaigns in Ireland," because the list would be horrible and horribly long. The only 18th century (yes, 1690s, but that's "the 18th century" in academia because it's after The Restoration) battles more romanticized and fictionalized are the '15 and '45 Jacobite rebellions/uprisings. I was pleased to support. Geogre 14:20, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Country logos

Hi Seabhcan,

What are all these country logos you're uploading? I'm not familiar with them, and the article on metrication you pointed to doesn't mention them. Thanks - Tempshill 19:43, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

They are the national logos of various metrication campaigns. I've added a few to the approapiate articles, but I still need to add more articles on metrication in countries such as New Zealand, South Africa, Ireland, etc. See Metrication in Canada for example. Seabhcán 23:38, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

History of Limerick

Congrats on getting this to FA status! You are hereby awarded The Barnstar of National Merit in recognition of your efforts.--Lordkinbote 08:10, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Wow, Thanks. I'll copy it to the user page. Seabhcán 10:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Liberia - units of measure

See my response to your comment on my talk page. Alan J Shea 15:22, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Bounty Board

Greetings. You've recently been involved with working on get articles up to featured status, so I wanted to let you know about a new page, Misplaced Pages:Bounty board. People have put up monetary bounties for certain articles reaching featured status - if the article makes it, the bounty lister donates the stated amount of money to the Wikimedia Foundation. So you can work on making articles featured, and donate other people's money at the same time. If this sounds interesting, I hope you stop by. – Quadell 13:39, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Metrication World Map

Hi there, I saw the maps you made for the metrication article and I think I'd like to do something similar for the literacy article for world literacy rates.. Could you tell me how you made them and/or other tricks? Its been suggested to me that I take that map and then mark it up with microsoft paint or something, although that would certainly take a while. Thanks! TastyCakes 16:42, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid thats all I did. I just took the blank map, picked the colors and used 'fill' on each country. It is inefficeint, but I don't have proper mapping software. It doesn't take as long as you'd think. Seabhcán 17:20, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, great, thanks. Did you get a blank map from somewhere? Or I think I could use your map and recolour it, would that be ok? TastyCakes 17:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I used the Image:Driving standards.png image. But the current version of Image:SI-adoption-world.png (not my work) now has a lovely color spread. Of course you may use whatever you like. Wiki is freedom. :-) Seabhcán 21:35, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, thanks a lot. One other thing, did you use paint to make the modifications you did? And if so how did you convert the png into bitmap and then back again? Thanks TastyCakes 21:49, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I think I used Paint Shop Pro. But Paint.Net is good too. I think it can do most simple things with all file types. And it's open source. here.

Perfect, thanks again. TastyCakes 23:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Compute Vision at Wikicity

Thanks for the invitation to write something at the Computer Vision Wikicity. I have some other stuff that needs to be taken care of first, but maybe I'll come back and contribute later. Is there an admininstrator of CVW? Something written about how to organize content, etc? KYN 22:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Great, hope to see you there sometime soon. The wiki is very young and so nothing is set in stone, but the current structure is based around the categories of "Techniques | Computer languages | Compression | Hardware | Mathematics | Research Institutions | Industry | Publications | Biology |". I hope the wiki will become not just an encyclopedia on the topic, but also include info on companies and institutions involved in CV, and books and publications on the subject. Seabhcán 11:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Operation Phantom Fury

Dear Seabhcan,

This article is more screwed up than a soup sandwich. Certainly there is a basket of non-controversial things we can do tomorrow to improve it. I look forward to working with you on it.

The thing is this. White phosphorus does not kill through a toxic effect. It is not, therefor a chemical weapon in the ordinary sense of the word. Certainly it is a chemical, and certainly it is a weapon, but so is gunpowder. Is gunpowder a chemical weapon? Napalm? Why not?

Certainly the American's weasally denial of the use of napalm and WP should be mentioned, but this is not the main story here.

So let us try to improve this article (the entire article) by a coöperative effort. Paul, in Saudi 15:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, the deed is done. I have edited the heck out of the page. Please tell me what you think. I have uncovered a bigger mess however. The Fallujah page is full of misinformation and seems to be a (real nice) page on the city with another (nasty) page dealing with the battle of Fallujah. I would suppose we need to move the Battle stuff to the Phantom Fury page. Your thoughts? Paul, in Saudi 06:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I wanted to tell you how pleased I am that you removed your rewrite tag. A small bit of progress. (Now, do we want to wrestle with the Fallujah page?)

Also, super user page.Very impressive. Paul, in Saudi 02:58, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. But it wasn't 'my' rewrite tag. I didn't put it there, I thought you did! Seabhcán 08:56, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Featured article for December 25th

I noticed that you have listed yourself as an atheist Wikipedian. You will probably be interested to know that Brian0918 has nominated Omnipotence paradox as the front page article for December 25th. You can vote on this matter here. The other suggestion being supported by others for that date is Christmas, although Raul654 has historically been against featuring articles on the same day as their anniversary/holiday. AngryParsley 08:21, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

172.143.148.165

Isn't it a bit hasty to block him/her after just two warnings (and two vandalisms)? --Nlu 14:36, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe, but I think this maybe the same person as my other recent blocks. Although I could be wrong. Unblock the IP if you like. Seabhcán 14:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I see no reason to believe that this is a sock puppet; the pages he/she vandalized don't have history that suggests that this is simply a new IP that popped up. Unless you can think of a major reason to suspect otherwise, I am going to unblock. --Nlu 14:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok. Sorry if I was too hasty on this one. Seabhcán 14:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

WikiMaps

Hi,

I am trying to get more info about WikiMaps.

Outside Developed Countries (or Lucrative markets such as US, Canda, Europe, Japan), there is hardly any mapping engine or anyone working on such products.

It would really be cool to have a wiki users created mapping (even if it a 2D and not having a terrain), that can be uploaded and usable by a mapping engine.

Chirags 19:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Measurement

Template:Measurement has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion#Template:Measurement. Thank you.--Srleffler 03:06, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Passports

I tried to scan the article in a while back, but it didn't take very well - the magazine is part of a volume, very firmly bound, so the inner half-inch of text didn't get picked up, which made it read pretty patchily! My apologies...

If I get a chance I'll try again, and see if I can get something better this time; I'll let you know if so. Shimgray | talk | 17:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Dublinspire.png

This media may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:Dublinspire.png. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the media on Misplaced Pages (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then you can use {{GFDL}} to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as {{fairusein|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags#Fair use. See Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Longhair 03:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Page name for temperature articles

To avoid flip-flopping between 'degree Fahrenheit' and 'Fahrenheit' or 'degree Celsius' and 'Celsius', I propose that we have a discussion on which we want. I see you have contributed on units of measurement, please express your opinion at Talk:Units of measurement. Thanks. bobblewik 22:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Fuel efficiency

I see you are co-contributing to the page Fuel efficiency. There are a few points I'd like to discuss with you:

• perhaps the comparison with other modes of transport should be restricted to those that are alternative to cars (surface transportation of passengers), therefore removing the data on humans, Space Shuttle and freight trains;
• homogeneization of the units for the energy efficiency: we could keep the figure in the original source, plus the translation in SI units (MJ/km-passenger ?), plus some other unit to make easier the comparison with cars
• when you SI-ized the units for airplanes and ships, did you take into account that they use different fuels than gasoline, with different energy content ?

Hi User:StefanoC,

I don't see why this article should be limited to fuel efficiency of cars only - the term applys to all machines which do work. I'd like to also write a section on power stations, as efficiency is very important here. On units, MJ/km would seem approapiate. On aviation fuel - I have read that modern aviation fuel is not very different in energy terms from gasoline. It is however designed to have a lower freezing point, and a higher flash point. Seabhcán 15:42, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

oops. I just saw your response on the Fuel Efficiency talk page StefanoC 15:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

...for putting categories in the Music of Italy article. I've just started this Misplaced Pages stuff and forget things like that once in a while. Cheers from Naples, Italy.Jeffmatt 05:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:DustinTheTurkey.jpg

This media may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:DustinTheTurkey.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the media on Misplaced Pages (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then you can use {{GFDL-self}} to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as {{fairusein|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Shyam 09:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Bertie gets balls

The Oirish Times needs a Subscription before reading that part. Please quote from the source so I can find a match of it elsewhere?--Irishpunktom\ 17:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

He said it in the dail, so it should be reported elsewhere. UTV report part of it... Can I e-mail you the text of the Irish Times? Seabhcán 17:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Boosting

Hi, I trying to bring some sort of order to the various articles which are currently tagged as belonging to Category:Computer vision. Among these I find Boosting which you (?) have tagged for the computer vision category. This article describes machine learning techniques which I assume in principle can be used for solving some problem in computer vision, but the article does not present any material which makes it obvious how it relates to computer vision. Can you please add something to the Boosting article to describe this relation? --KYN 21:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Give me a few weeks. Thanks Seabhcán 09:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Also for Hidden Markov model and Particle filter? --KYN 06:25, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Metrication Revert

Hi Seabhcan,

Why did you revert Metrication's page back to the knowingly erroneous version? Which part of my edit was not factual?

Thanks, arfon 05:57, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

AH! I answered my own question, I see on your user page that the very first topic that you are "currently working on" is... (drum roll) "Metrication in New Zealand"! Complete with a bunch of metric logos. Now I understand. arfon 09:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Arfon,

You removed the section which said "The process was completed in most of the world in the 19th and early 20th centuries..." and declared it a 'Factual Error'. Every book and source I have read, not to mention my personal experience and education, assert that this statement is true. I think you will have to prove otherwise before it can be changed.

Seabhcán 14:26, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi S,

Metrification has NOT completed anywhere in the world. There are still some traditional units being used when there are equivalent metric units. Show me one country that metrification has completed and traditional units are no longer used or officially accepted.

As for 'book and sources': I can show you books and sources all over that say that "Bush lied" and I can show you books and sources that say "Bush didn't lie"which is true? Just because you see that a book/source says that the oceans are pink, doesn't make it true - ESPICALLY when the subject of the metric system is involved.

arfon 04:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Which traditional units in which countries are you talking about? Seabhcán 20:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I can assure you that Austria, among others, has completely abolished any non-metric measurement (apart from horsepower for cars =]). —Nightstallion (?) 19:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Well put

"Its silly to accuse me of 'claims of false vandalism'. I am an admin and have no history of it." Tom Harrison 20:39, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, but your edits really did look like vandalism. You added "This user blames octopodes, somewhat." to User:Striver's userpage, which sounds like a critism of his 9/11 edits. Seabhcán 21:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry about it, I can understand that it might have looked odd. I don't really see the connection between octopodes and 9/11, but probably that's just as well. Tom Harrison 21:16, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Please don't go...

You'll be missed. Please reconsider your decision... —Nightstallion (?) 18:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I secound that! Please stay around! Linuxerist L/T 11:18, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. I'll stick around for a while to defend my Opuses but I don't think I'll do any more major editing. Seabhcán 11:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Berlin

Hi engl.-BerlinPage Lovers ! would be great to see you voting here Misplaced Pages:Good Article Collaboration of the week , thank you ! Sashandre

Collapse of the World Trade Center

In an edit summary you wrote, "rv. Mongo - DO NOT revert this again while it is being dicussed on talk.If you repeat this action a third time I will block you. Please respond to questions." I don't really think that's an appropriate remark for an edit summary, or anywhere else for that matter. Do you not agree with me that if anyone blocks MONGO, it should probably be someone who's not currently involved in an editing dispute with him? Tom Harrison 23:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, seriously, blocking me when we are in disagreement with each other would get you an Rfc and quick. Don't misrepresent images in captions and information in text to push a POV.--MONGO 01:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Mongo - You made edit which I questioned on the talk page. You refused to answer these questions and then reverted the page twice. This behaviour is so far beyond the pale as to be embarrassing. You really should be ashamed. Seabhcán 07:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

rfc

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you should fill out the rfc yourself, and then I can choose to endorse yourt summary. — goethean ॐ 14:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, didn't realise that. I don't have time to finish it today. It will have to wait until tomorrow or friday. Seabhcán

I will help you, what do I need to do? EyesAllMine 17:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Collapse of the Twin Towers

Disclaimer - I am not a structural engineer, and I don't have professional experience in this area, only academic. Still, seeing as there's no one else to step up I think it's good for me to respond.

To understand why the floor trusses sagged downwards, first take a look at a diagram of the trusses, such as the one at , figure 5. The truss consists of a top chord, a bottom chord, and a web (the diagonal elements). The truss is connected by the top chord at both ends.

Now, imagine that the truss is uniformly heated. The truss will want to expand in length, but that expansion is prevented by a horizontal reaction force at the connections. That horizontal reaction force is located at the top chord, resulting in a moment. The response of the truss to that moment is to bend, concave up (i.e. sag).

Even if the truss connections were along the centerline of the truss, it still should buckle concave up instead of concave down because of the applied vertical loads (dead load (self-weight) and live load (people, furniture etc.)).

The NIST analysis in the report (~ 8 mb download) shows calculated horizontal force of floor truss on the columns vs. temperature (fig. 5-37, page 83). The sequence shown is a large outward force on the columns up to about 560 C. Then the force abruptly changes to inward, and the seat bolts fail. Although the bolts connecting the truss to the seat fail, the truss is still resting on the seat at this point. As the truss continues to sag, it "walks-off" the seat at ~720 C.

Here's my understanding of the process - At ~560 C due to the high bending moment (thermal + gravity) and reduced steel strength the truss web fails. With the failure of the web, the truss loses most of its stiffness, and acts more like two cables (top chord and bottom chord) and less like a rigid structure. Without that stiffness, the expansion of the truss is no longer constrained, and it is essentially hanging off the seats in a catenary arc. The web failure may also come with dynamic loads (there's a discontinuity where the force goes from outward to inward). The bolts shear, and the truss falls off the seat as it continues to sag.

The bolted connection is a friction connection, meaning that the bolt provides a clamping force and the bolt is not meant to take shear forces (this is typical structural use of bolts). The bolt is in a slotted hole. It may be that the slot provided enough play for the truss to push directly against the column - I haven't found discussion of that. Also, other elements of the system such as the concrete slab may have taken some of the outward force. Anyway, that's only my speculation on why the bolts failed when the force on the columns was inwards, not outwards although the outward forces were calculated to be higher. It shouldn't make any difference, though - the ultimate failure (truss falling off seats) should be the same regardless of when the bolts failed. Toiyabe 15:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

A couple of points. One is that for structures, engineers don't think in terms of degree of catastrophic failure. There are simply failures which don't endanger the occupants and failures that do. Once a failure crosses the line into catastrophic, further details of the collapse are not that interesting to engineers because the event that needed to be prevented has already occurred.

Also, after catastrophic failure a structure is no longer a structure but a mechanism. Its behavior is no longer subject to static analysis. Dynamic analysis of something as complicated as a collapsing sky-scraper is so difficult that nobody bothers to do it. Not to say you couldn't attempt it, but the confidence of the engineering community in the results of that analysis would approach 0

If you read the preface, the goals or the NIST investigation were:

• To investigate the building construction, the materials used, and the technical conditions that contributed to the outcome of the WTC disaster.
• To serve as the basis for:
  • Improvements in the way buildings are designed, constructed maintained and used;
  • Improved tools and guidance for industry and safety officials;
  • Recommended revisions to current codes, standards and practices; and
  • Improved public safety.

Investigation into events after "global collapse ensued" would be out of scope. The only real purpose in doing that would be to counter-argue folks who think that the features of the collapse itself are inconsistent with the plane impact and fires. Apparently the Guvmint doesn't feel that's a good use of taxpayer $, and I don't blame them. First of all my confidence in the conclusions of that report would be low due to the difficulty in modeling the event. Secondly, even if I was highly confident in its conclusions I don't think that it would convince the folks it's aimed at, so why bother? Finaly specifically adressing a conspiracy theory probably would only serve to strengthen its appeal. Toiyabe 17:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Thats a reasonable answer, but I don't think that questioning why a localised failure would cause a global collapse could be described as conspiracy minded. Especially considering that the buildings were supposed to be designed to withstand such an incident. And also considering that far fewer people would have died if the top of the towers had simply fallen off. I tend to think of it in terms of the Titanic. That ship was designed to stay afloat even in the case of a hull breach. But it sank anyway - and the study into the sinking went into great detail on how this hull breach caused the sinking in this case. By analogy, the Nist report limited itself to discussing the hull breach only. I think thats a shame. Seabhcán 17:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Another analogy would be an investigation as to why the Titanic broke in half as it sank. The NIST report contains scenarios for both towers that continue up until large portions of the structure were in motion. That's about equivalent to when the Titanic's stern reared out of the water. The designers of the Titanic expected her to stay afloat even in case of a hull breach, but I doubt they expected the hull to survive the being cantilevered out of the water. Likewise the WTC's designers expected it to survive an airplane strike (possibly equivalent to the one that occured) but once the top quarter or so was in motion there was no hope. Survival beyond that point is not a reasonable design constraint. Toiyabe 19:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

From TruthSeeker1234

Hi. Yes, it would be interesting to write an article about the edit wars on 9-11. VERY interesting tidbit about MONGO working for USDHS. I'll get something started and contact you within a week or so. It would also be cool to write the WP collpase article NPOV, the way it should be, post it, and archive a copy. THey would revert it immediately, of course, but we could post it somewhere and use if for comparison.

cheers

-alex

Thats a good idea too. Why don't we do it here: User:Seabhcan/Collapse of the World Trade Center. Seabhcán 09:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Russian police template

Hi there. I thought you might be interested in this. AlexPU 18:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPA

Well, the Rfc you wished to file wasn't certified in time, now you move a copy of a contentious article to your userspace to "make it NPOV"...and then to top things off, you are starting to engage in personal attacks both in comments and in edit summaries . In light of your recent disagreements, do you think I am in a mood for a joke? Please see WP:NPA for future reference.--MONGO 13:15, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I think its a fair comment given your recent trolling and accusations of 'junk science'. Seabhcán 20:18, 30 April 2006 (UTC)