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Akemi Loli Mokoto seems to be vandalizing his own user page

I didn't do a checkuser, but based on editing style it looks like User:Akemi Loli Mokoto has vandalized his own user page multiple times. This guy is actually the indef banned User:Saikano who was causing trouble in 2007, but I unblocked him in 2009 and have been keeping an eye on his edits since then, which have not been especially troublesome or controversial. Anyway since this is a "community ban" which I arbitrarily ignored I think it's about time for me to turn this over to the community, and maybe think about:

1. confirming who is doing the vandalism with checkuser, if anyone thinks that will be helpful
2. getting other people to watch his edits
3. or just banning him again if that really seems like the best solution.

Shii (tock) 06:29, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you should do a usercheck because I have not vandalized anything. Since I have been allowed back to Misplaced Pages, I have done what I should have done before my ban(edit pages without bias, not insult other users, not use the "talk" page as a forum, etc). I was pretty child-ish back then so I regret my actions in the past. I hope, if it comes to it, the community understands that and lets me stay. Beside that, I am completely lost on what the hell just happened to my user page since I was asleep and I would like it if Misplaced Pages investigated it. I guess announcing the fact I was going to sleep to Twitter was not the best idea since I am often targeted due to my blunt tweets. I am going to fix the minor damage now. The edit done to my page are not "like me" by the way. I'd never be caught dead using idiotic words like "weeaboo". I do however get the feeling that despite my edits on other pages(most of which were minor), I am facing a ban for something I did NOT do. If I edited my own page, it was done using this user name and I did not edit to the point of violating Misplaced Pages's rules. That is all I have to say. --Akemi Loli Mokoto (talk) 11:46, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• Checkuser note. It seems unlikely that the two accounts are operated by the same person. Salvio 12:43, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Thanks, I thought they were the same for sure but I'll assume good faith that they are not. Anyone can close this conversation if they check it over and see that nothing unusual has happened here. Shii (tock) 12:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Why has Alatuata (talk · contribs) not been banned yet? – Richard BB 14:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

They have now (well, blocked anyway) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Loli?

Akemi Loli Mokoto, on your website that you link to on your user page, you have the following disclaimer:

Lolicon(some of the pics you see on this site) is LEGAL in the US, Japan, and other countries. But this will only be about the US. In 2002 the US Supreme Courts ruled in a 7-2 ruling that virtual child porn is LEGAL! This was affirmed in 2003. It was upheld in 2008. . In Ohio the high courts also ruled that Virtual Child Porn is LEGAL . My host does NOT prohibit sexual or pornographic content if it is legal. This blog is UNTOUCHABLE! So do not waste your time bitching.

I'm curious - what is the meaning of the "Loli" in your username? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Also, when you were User:Saikano, you used to sign as "Lolicon3043910" - is this related? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:05, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes, Loli is(to me) short for Lolicon. Over the past 1(maybe 2) years, I have strayed away from using "Loli" and "Lolicon" in my usernames and about mes since I am moving towards a correspondences contract with CNN next year(hopefully). Since I am unable to change my username on Misplaced Pages to something more desirable(Akemi_Mokoto, Akemi-Mokoto, Akemi.Mokoto, or even AkemiCNN) I have been forced to keep the "Loli" in Akemi_loli_mokoto. As for the Saikano and Lolicon3043910 usernames. I am unsure. I know I was User: Saikano but I do not know where the Lolicon3043910 username came from or anything else about. I know I made it but that is all I know about it. Is it a problem? If I could redo what I did in the past, I would. --Akemi Loli Mokoto (talk) 13:31, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Is it a problem? No, not at all. After I saw your defense of "virtual child porn" on your site, I was curious if your username was promoting it. I think you have answered that. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:47, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Sure thing. All the best. --Akemi Loli Mokoto (talk) 13:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• Changing username is permitted, so I see no reason not to allow a change to Akemi Mokoto (note that spaces are allowed in usernames, if you want). Though as that policy says, you might want to think twice about using your real name on Misplaced Pages, especially if you're already being harassed. I don't think that a past agreement not to use sockpuppets (whether or not it is still active) should be interpreted to prohibit a name change - does anyone disagree? Wnt (talk) 15:21, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know. Would I be able to use the username of one of my Sockpupets without having one of the bureaucrats ban me? I'd like to take Akemi Mokoto(Akemi_Mokoto). --Akemi Loli Mokoto (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

According to the block notice on the talk page of User:Akemi Mokoto, that account was "blocked for pedophilia-related disruption including attempting to operate violative sock accounts". Perhaps that account wouldn't be a good choice. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 02:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I think that block notice is VERY misleading. What they mean is I went on the "Lolicon" talk page and started bashing pedophiles and stuff. I basiclly used the talk page in a way it was not intended. The block notice makes it seem like I was talking about stuff a pedophile would talk about, I guess. But I understand. I'll use AkemiCNN or Akemi.Mokoto until either I ma officially pardoned by Misplaced Pages(and all account I used are unblocked and released) or until I think of a better username. Thanks for the help. --Akemi Mokoto (talk) 10:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

It's the same user - I see no trouble with him "usurping" his own blocked account (but it's best to move that account to some other name, and move his present account to Akemi Mokoto in order to preserve recent contribution history). I should add that I think that blocking an editor under his own name, leaving a notice worded like that, if indeed he is anything other than a confirmed pedophile (and he clearly must not be one, given that he's been allowed to continue editing for three years since, after thorough administrative scrutiny), seems like a Very Bad Thing which thoroughly violates the spirit of "BLP" as we know it, and seems like it could expose Misplaced Pages itself to libel actions. Even the actual pedophiles found on Misplaced Pages weren't treated this way - they just have some vaguely worded ArbCom ban notice on their pages. I think User talk:Akemi Mokoto should seriously be reworded NOW. Wnt (talk) 17:51, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure anyone can confirm this from reading Akemi's edit history, but that block was a long time ago when Misplaced Pages was below the lawsuit radar and he was just an anonymous user really upset about pedophiles. It's not something that should happen again. And yes, he ought to change his name, and we should formally say that he is no longer indef banned. Shii (tock) 02:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Having read through that accounts contributions, I think it would be over-simplifying to say that the issue was that they were "really upset about pedophiles". Take this question for example:

I have a VERY odd question for someone who is an Expert in Child Sex Abuse so dont take this wrong: I am a Lolicon Fan so I see underaged ANIME girls...haveing sex offten! and of corse they...they um...climax! I wanted to know...does real *gaging* little girls do the same or what?!

And then there is this statement in the discussion of the same subject on another userpage: "anyway interms of Me being a Risk to kids I...I Rarely say a person is cute but it happens! so I do belive I maybe but not likely!". Delicious carbuncle (talk) 05:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Delicious carbuncle, it is very clear what you are implying with all your <cough>ing, and you know better than anyone that WP:Child protection prohibits discussing allegations of pedophilia here and leaves it up to ArbCom. I strongly disagree with that, but that's the policy and the policy is that this sort of accusation should be not merely stricken but revdeled. You are also implying that despite an AN/I process, revealing all his accounts and being put on a sort of Wiki-probation for six months, that admins have missed these issues for three years, which seems remarkable. Misplaced Pages should not be a place where kids are publicly branded as "pedophiles" in permanent memorial userban pages. Wnt (talk) 14:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Wnt, you know that I am a strong supporter of the policy regarding how cases relating to pedophilia advocacy are handled. In the event that I have concerns about a user in that regard, I will not hesitate to contact ArbCom directly with whatever on- or off-wiki evidence might be helpful to them. That policy, however, should not prevent me from expressing concerns about how this particular user's blocks and unblocks are being described. If you think I have inaccurately quoted the user or distorted their statements, please point out where I have done so. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, in our WP:BLP articles, I am often told that it is important not just to consider whether something has been published, but also whether it sounds like an attack page, whether it's appropriate in various ways to include. Well, we're talking about a real kid with a real name here, and doesn't all that BLP stuff apply here? This is a private, non-notable person being discussed based on original resarch. Whether or not the word "pedophilia" in the Misplaced Pages sense applies to the interactions, using it to apply to someone who was a child at the time based on his comments about some artistic drawings that we haven't even seen sounds completely dodgy and irresponsible. Wnt (talk) 18:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Wnt, although you have in the past expressed your disdain for it, our policy on biographies of living people does apply on all parts of Misplaced Pages. Can you be more specific about what part of the policy you feel is being broken here? Also, it was my impression that the user was at least 18 at the time of the statements I quoted above, but I may have misunderstood something if you know that they were a child at that time. Can you define what "'pedophilia' in the Misplaced Pages sense" means? I am not at all sure what you are trying to say. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

If this were an article about someone, would any of the BLP believers for one moment let someone add a statement that "so-and-so engaged in pedophilia-related disruption", based on what you have here? Note that the statement that he's under 18 is the second link you cited above. And based on the general immaturity of some of the edits at the time I am inclined to take it as the truth. Lastly, the comment I made about definition is that pedophilia is a medical condition that we are not qualified nor permitted to diagnose (at least on the Refdesk...) so it is not precisely clear how Misplaced Pages is doing it. Wnt (talk) 03:34, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to write at least 17, not at least 18, but in either case he was hardly a child. His question was not about "artistic drawings", as you describe anime depicting sex with children, but its relation to real life. The user wrote: "I am a Lolicon Fan so I see underaged ANIME girls...haveing sex offten! and of corse they...they um...climax! I wanted to know...does real *gaging* little girls do the same or what?!". I do not know what "gaging" means (it may be a misspelling of gaijin). Taken in connection with the other edits from that account, "pedophilia-related disruption" is an accurate description and a good reason for blocking. I think the problem here is two-fold. Firstly, there may be a difference of opinion on whether "lolicon", a form of anime that frequently depicts sex with school-age children and rape by foreign objects such as tentacles, is "pedophilia-related". Secondly, Wnt seems to have the incorrect impression that users who are blocked by ArbCom for advocacy of pedophilia are somehow "diagnosed" as pedophiles as a result of that process. They are not. In any case, I do not wish for Wnt's distracting nonsense to lead people to believe that I am using this thread to accuse anyone of being a pedophile. If anyone has any such concerns about any user, they should email ArbCom privately with evidence. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Wnt, what the hell? Where in the hell did you or anybody else get the idea that I was even a suspected people let alone a "confirmed" pedophile? Anyway, thank you Shii. You are correct. What I did in the past is not what I would do now(on Misplaced Pages anyway). So what are the steps I do I have go though to get an official ban-lift? I doubt Misplaced Pages would be as unforgiving as to kick me off Misplaced Pages(Again) for the crap I said and did years ago. I will stop replying on this page now. If anybody has anything else to say, I do ask you take it to my talk page so I at least know someone said something. Arigato! PS: the username you see is just a nicname change I did on my settings. it's not an official change. --Akemi Mokoto (talk) 03:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I was not saying that - sorry if I confused you, but I thought I was pretty clear. My point was that Misplaced Pages has treated confirmed pedophiles better than it treated you. But people reading those indefinite ban comments on User talk:Akemi Mokoto really might think that the comments were suggesting you were a pedophile - which is why I was criticizing them so harshly. Wnt (talk) 05:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Continued edit-warring on Paul Ryan article

Ugh, this article already got full protection for a day just a little bit ago and all the combatants have jumped right back into the edit war after protection ended. It needs to be locked for longer and there probably needs to be a serious look at some of the editors repeatedly reverting on this article.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Note: In lieu of individual notifications, I have left a comment on the talk page linking to this discussion.

Fully protected for a period of 1 month, after which the page will be automatically unprotected.. In the future, you can also take this to WP:RFPP. --Jayron32 03:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

There are concerns other than protection as I noted. I am concerned about the general conduct issues in question as well.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:09, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't take sides. If someone wants to do so after me, that's fine. Protection hits all offenders equally. And from what I can see in the article history, I'm not sure I see any reason to suppose someone deserves credit for taking "the high road". But whatever. If some admin after me feels that blocks are in order, fine. But the protection has stopped people from reverting the article, and they now need to use the talk page to discuss and establish consensus first. I should note that, on one particularly conntentious article of a similar ilk, Presidency of Barack Obama, there have been some good custodians who have worked very hard to keep the article under control. Perhaps some of them could be brought in here to restore some sanity. --Jayron32 03:12, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Just going to point out the obvious here that StillStanding-247 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is involved in this. His third ANI thread in as many days, must be some sort of record. Hot Stop (Edits) 03:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Yeah. I predicted "next week"... maybe that was too optimistic. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 03:21, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • The last thread about him only closed a few hours ago. This is getting just a smidge ridiculous, and I'm tempted to propose article or topic bans for the handful of names I keep seeing come up in these threads, starting with StillStanding-247 (talk · contribs). This level of disruption - whether in good faith or not - is getting, well, disruptive. It's apparent that SS, and quite possibly a number of other actors in these "Wikiproject Conservatism vs the people-who-don't-seem-to-much-like-conservatives" clashes, are unable to contribute to the topic of Paul Ryan, and perhaps the American electoral season as a whole, without causing disruption.

      Historically, articles and editing related to American presidential elections go, er, what's the kind term, sort of insane in the lead-up to November of presidential election years, and I'm becoming increasingly persuaded that we should keep articles in this area on a short leash during that time. It may be that we need an arbcom case for that, or it may be that the community is capable of imposing that short leash on its own. I'm hoping it's the latter, because there's no reason we should have to rely on Arbcom to say things as obvious as "This is a hotly contentious area, with a lot of emotion on both sides, and editors who cannot be on their best behavior for the duration of their editing should look elsewhere for something to do." A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 03:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• I have been thinking that something of that nature may be necessary as well. Also should note that I actually suggested that Still stay away from these topics for a while, but the response was unfavorable.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:44, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• I really don't think you can single out StillStanding-247 (talk · contribs) here. In particular, the conduct of Rtmcrrctr (talk · contribs) needs serious review. Kerfuffler (talk) 04:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

You can't single out any pair of editors; once we've stopped them, more will show up, since this is a high-profile article about an important public figure. No, the only answer is protection, I'm afraid pbp 04:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

That's somewhat true, but I think it misses my point. We have a particularly problematic user who's done 6 reverts on the same article in 24+epsilon hours, and has made numerous personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith. And it's not StillStanding-247 (talk · contribs), it's Rtmcrrctr (talk · contribs). The record is there for anyone who wants to look. Kerfuffler (talk) 04:43, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

There were more editors causing problems than that and several were brought up in the previous ANI cases. You are actually one of the other participants in the edit war yourself having restored the material in contention with a revert once before protection and again after protection. On the other side I would say Belchfire (talk · contribs) and Arzel (talk · contribs), who have had many problematic interactions with Still recently, were two of the more prolific edit-warriors. Another of the newbie editors SPECIFICO (talk · contribs) had already been blocked for 3RR over that very same material. However, that editor is apparently new and just reverted once since that block and Rtm is presumably also a new editor and thus unfamiliar with 3RR, having just been warned after the fifth revert of the day without any subsequent reverts on the article. Honestly, I don't really like listing people here, but I do not want this to become a dog-pile on Still. Lots of bad behavior to go around and there are still others I have not mentioned.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Make it two months full-protection: If we're going to gold-lock this, might as well extend it 'till after the election. If 2008 is any indication, the four candidates' articles will be gold-locked in mid-to-late October anyway. pbp 03:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Seems like a good idea. Anything that comes up about Ryan between now and then is probably going to be partisan (for one side or the other) and need a great deal of care to straighten out, since the media will report just about anythting about anybody as long as it's "out there". I'd think the same would be true about the Barack Obama, Mitt Romney and Joe Biden articles: we're not a newspaper, and it's not going to hurt our status as an encyclopedia to be a bit out of date with the latest scandals and PR. There's plenty of time after the election's over to add whatever still seems significant then. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Yes, I was about to make same suggestion. 1 month protection is silly since things will be even crazier 1 month from now. If keeping article protected that long is tolerable at all, then protect til after the election (might be a day or two longer than two months). Alternative: put on PC2. Yeah there's no policy for that. Policy schmolicy, if it doesn't work it can be undone. 67.119.15.30 (talk) 04:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Topic bans and general sanctions

I'm going to take a scattershot approach here and propose a number of different remedies which I think may address some or all of the issues here. These are all possible routes, some of which may be more preferable than others, and I welcome all input into which, if any, of these options is useful to the community. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 04:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Just a general statement: I could be convinced that a ban or sanction on SS247 is justified, but certainly not in the absence of a similar ban or sanction on his antagonists. It takes (at least) two to tango, and there are been a lot of repeat names popping up in those AN/I reports from the other side of the aisle as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:41, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

In any event, wasn't the latest advice to open an RFC/U on SS247? Are we going for bans and sanctions before the issues with his editing have been aired out in the proper forum? Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:45, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I believe this would definitely be the appropriate forum for a discussion of whether General Sanctions are appropriate. As far as topic bans/editing-behavior issues, such things are commonly handled here, though there's no reason they could not instead be handled by an RfC if someone started one. I'm responding to this set of issues from the perspective of someone who's not involved in the topic area and has seen the same name(s) pop up repeatedly, fighting the same ways, on the same issues, all over our noticeboards, which means that I personally tend to feel ANI is an adequate venue for discussion of that issue. YMMV, and you're by no means required to agree with me. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 04:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't clear: AN/I is the right place to bring up bans and sanctions (well, actually, WP:AN is, but put that aside), what I was questioning is whether we're putting the horse before the cart by talking about bans and sanctions when there's been no RFC/U, which is normally the first step in dealing with an editor's perceived behavioral problems. How many times have you read someone saying on AN/I, "Why are we dealing with this here when Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/StillStanding-247 is a red-link?" Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposal: Topic ban for StillStanding-247 (talk · contribs)

I see a couple possible areas that may serve as an area of topic-ban for StillStanding. Each of these should last a minimum of three months (which would put us post-election), though I would recommend an indefinite time frame, with SS allowed to appeal after 3 months. Possibilities:

A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 04:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• As proposer: Support option 1. I think SS needs to step away from American political articles entirely. I would note that my support of this sanction does not absolve any other users in the topic area of responsibility for their behavior, and that I may support similar topic bans on other users if they're proposed. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 04:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support option 1. We will then have to look at general sanctions (see below) to put some of the other re-appearing names on notice. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 04:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support in principle, but if there is going to be a T-ban, it really needs to include all LGBT articles and all articles concerning SPLC or organizations listed as hate groups by SPLC. Belchfire-TALK 05:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there's plenty of grossly inappropriate behavior at Talk:Southern Poverty Law Center as well, including flat out refusal to comply with the result of a RfC, and rehashing the same argument over and over again, and serious personal attacks on other editors. I sincerely hope an administrator takes the time to look at it. I will add another ANI if necessary. Kerfuffler (talk) 05:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

It's also worth mentioning that he started 2 DRNs in quick succession at Focus on the Family, then refused to abide by the results when the DRNs failed to produce the result he was looking for. Much as he stated here , he's not looking to build an encyclopedia; he wants to "fix some articles". Belchfire-TALK 05:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree to a topic ban from Southern Poverty Law Center due to concerns about grossly inappropriate behavior at the TP.--Calm As Midnight 05:27, 8 September 2012 (UTC) Illegal sock. KillerChihuahua 12:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose focusing on a single editor, in preference to handling the issue in a systematic and consistent way. My survey of these articles suggests there are a dozen or so editors from across the political spectrum -- including several participants in the present thread -- who should be put on ice until 7 November 2012. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:30, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per my comments above, since there has been no RFC/U, and the supports above me are among those same editors who appear to be aligned on the opposite political side from SS247. If there is a behavioral problem, the RFC/U is the proper first step to take. If, while the RFC/U is proceeding, SS247's behavior appears to an admin to be truly disruptive or tendenitious, a block would be in order, but I am strongly opposed to a community topic ban or sanction discussion used as a hammer top squealch one's political opponents. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• (ec) To clarify in light of Boris's comment above: If admins (perhaps a triumvirate?) want to do a survey of the political editing situation and hand down blocks to a number of different editors, I have no problem with that. It's the specific focus on SS247 (without proper groundwork) to the exclusion of other editors that concerns me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Jumping straight to an indef with a required wait of three months before appeal is woefully overdoing it and the focus on Still is, as noted by Boris above, focusing too much on one editor when there are many editors involved whose conduct is at issue.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose As Boris explains above, focusing on a single editor is the wrong approach here. It is typically heavy-handed and elephant gun approaches that AN/I threads seem to reach for first, rather than exploring something simple like full protection for an extended period. These debates at these various article are going to only get more partisan and more silly, and rather than make it sound like one editor is the solitary 'problem', why not focus on the real issue at hand? Focus on solutions that don't single people out, especially when there is a larger problem to consider. -- Avanu (talk) 05:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

If the user continues, we can always start another an/i thread.--Calm As Midnight 05:38, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

This is exactly what's wrong with the usual results of AN/I complaints: Misplaced Pages punishes the innocent and lets the editor causing the problem off the hook. Articles get frozen so that nobody can edit them, and the behavior issue is never addressed. It's nonsense, and we just wind up back here over and over. (And I note, this is only Still-24's most recent trip to the woodshed. Last time I checked, a few weeks ago, he's been the subject of AN reports something like 7 times in 21 days.) Belchfire-TALK 05:45, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

It should be the ones who are causing problems to be topic-banned.--Calm As Midnight 05:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

So what's your criteria to determine that? A sustained pattern of disruptive behavior, perhaps? Like this? , , , , , , . That's just up through 8/17, I'm pretty sure the list would be a little longer if I went to the trouble of making it exhaustive. (For example, it doesn't include the report just a few threads above this one.) Belchfire-TALK 06:01, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

If you're going to complain about grossly inappropriate behavior on someone else's part:

That is just barely the tip of the iceberg. Kerfuffler (talk) 07:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Do you think telling someone to "GTFO with this bullshit" is disruptive? . IRWolfie- (talk) 12:40, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment In reference to the point about singling out Still, see my comment above where I name some of the other participants. Note that it is not an exhaustive list by any measure.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:51, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per Devil's advocate. Still's edits seem far less objectionable than the civil POV pushing from the pro Republicans. Rather than reward them, a better solution might be to fully protect the most sensitive article(s), until after the election, and for a team of 2 or 3 impartial admins to update them based on the balance of discussion on the talk pages. FeydHuxtable (talk) 05:55, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I concur with FeydHuxtable's idea to have the pages fully protected rather then enforce a TB.--Calm As Midnight 05:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose unless the same sanction is applied to all the problematic combatants in this area. Dragging SS along to ANI repeatedly (sometimes on the thinnest of pretexts) and then claiming he should be topic banned "because his name is always getting brought up at ANI" would be funny if it wasn't actually borderline disruptive. WP:BOOMERANG should be kept in mind here. Black Kite (talk) 06:09, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. General sanctions applying to all users is preferable to any topic ban applied to one user. Viriditas (talk) 06:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose As others have pointed out, there are many editors with problematic behaviors, from across the political spectrum - including some who have commented in this thread. A blanket sanction should probably be imposed on a whole list of people. This proposal feels too much like some edit warriors working the system to get an 'enemy' removed. FurrySings (talk) 06:20, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose in favor of General Sanctions below. Mojoworker (talk) 06:38, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose; Still's editing is not more problematic, and may be less so, than that of his "opponents" in the topic area, and I will not support any sanction that favors one "side" when both have been misbehaving or when the favored side has been misbehaving more. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:41, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose: Roscelese hit the nail on the head here. Support for sanctions against this editora is driven primarily by the political motives of editors whose behavior is more troubling than Still's. It's hard for me to assume good faith here. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 06:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose Still has done nothing wrong, this is a strong case of WP:WITCHHUNT GimliDotNet 07:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose (Snoppose) Still is problematic, but the real issue is the "other side" who are disrupting wikipedia on a much larger scale, including a war against then SPLC across wikipedia etc (using tag teaming etc ). That is the real issue here. That he has been here at ANI so much is only because the conservative editors edit warring with him drag him around these venues. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Topic ban on Still Standing only. Although very tendentious, its not fair to single out one editor over the many others making reverts. I propose placing a series of articles on article probation and 1RR. Anyone breaking these rules will be blocked. But locking the page with full protection for two months is the worst idea ever. Don't punish the 90% of editors making serious edits to the article, because of the actions of the 10%. If those editors are disruptive, they will be blocked, otherwise we need the admins to stop being the nannies for the rest of us.--JOJ 13:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Topic Ban, as I've said before its not the content, its the battleground mentality. If he remains working on non-political areas, I doubt anything will change. A topic ban would just be a bandaid. Support trout slap for IRWolfie and others for egging Still on to create an RfC by proxy since they didn't have the guts to do it themselves.  little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  13:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Helping with the RfC is a far more productive way of dealing with the issues. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:11, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

At the point Still "started" that RfC, his behavior was such that it was (or should have been) obvious to all that his involvement in this RfC would lead to a boomerang. Shame on those who goaded Still into walking into this snare.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  15:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but what are you talking about. It is highly unlikely any form of boomerang would result from the RfC. I have not been goading Still and I dislike that characterization. I also note that you have been involved in almost all the articles which are mentioned in the RfC, where your primary contribution has been to revert others; and your contributions are almost solely within this topic area. You have also been blocked as much as Still and for the same reason. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:15, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support Option 1 - StillStanding has shown he is completely incapable of constructively editing articles on American politics, particularly articles on conservatism, and this is entirely necessary to prevent further disruption. Other editors may be doing stuff as well, but StillStanding has been repeatedly doing this at dozens of different articles since he joined. I believe this is ample enough evidence that Still does not intend to change or even address his problematic editing behavior, and if that is the case than a topic ban will be inevitable anyway. Toa Nidhiki05 14:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Question - would you support a similar ban on another editor (and I'm just picking one at random here) who has commented in this thread, around 60% of their articlespace edits are reverts, and who performs drive by taggings, and tag-teams? If so, does that seem fair? Black Kite (talk) 16:22, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Response - Seems like a trick question to me; as with the Dihydrogen monoxide hoax, you haven't given me a full list of his editing behavior. It depends on the user and their sum of contributions. In my experience with Still, it is apparent he is essentially a single-purpose account disrupting American political articles (I know this because that it essentially my editing behavior was at one point, but in the opposite slant). The sort of battlefield mentality that he edits with and spreads goes so far against the idea of consensus-building and compromise that a topic ban is necessary. The fact he is threatening to leave if he is topic banned proves his lack of intent to recognize and change his disruptive editing behavior. Toa Nidhiki05 18:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Interesting. Since this this isn't going to pass anyway, I'll leave it for now. I am sure the editor I refer to (and a few others) will be back at ANI soon anyway. Black Kite (talk) 19:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what you find interesting - you asked me if I wanted to topic ban a mystery editor based entirely on hearsay and I said that I'd have to see their overall behavior. I'm not sure if you are setting up an argument against me or this mystery editor, but Still has been recognized by a wide variety of editors as being disruptive in the topic area of American politics. As he has no intent of addressing, fixing, or stopping said battlefield behavior in the topic area, a topic ban is the only real solution to the issue at the moment. Toa Nidhiki05 20:08, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• My point, really; "Still has been recognized by a wide variety of editors as being disruptive in the topic area of American politics." How many of those editors have been neutral in that editing arena? Because looking through the last few ANI reports, the number appears to be very, very small. If Still was (a) disruptive, and more importantly (b) the only disruptive influence on those articles, he would certainly have been sanctioned severely by now. As you'll see from the comments here, however, consensus is that that is not the case. In my example I gave you the pertinent edit history of one of the other main editors in this arena; you declined to comment on that whilst asking for a topic ban for Still for a far less clearly defined "crime". That was what I found interesting. Black Kite (talk) 21:03, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Could you give me an idea as to what 'neutral' means before using it to support a claim? I don't know if you mean politically moderate or editing neutrally. However, the fact is Still has been incredibly disruptive and has been acknowledged as such by editors. The fact is he is indeed responsible for both short and long-term disruption on a wide variety of political articles, particularly American ones, and he has taken a battlefield attitude towards anyone who he suspects has political views opposite of his. This is both uncollegial and disruptive, and does not improve this encyclopedia at all. Still is undeniably being disruptive.
• As for your mystery user, please don't misrepresent my view - I am not going to support or decline a request to topic ban a user off of the hearsay of one user, and I hope as an admin you would act similarly if a similar request were to be posted on your talk page. The reason why I support a topic ban for Still is based off of personal experience and knowledge on Still and his editing history - particularly relating to his disruptive behavior and his lack of interest in acknowledging or changing it. I'm not asking for a topic ban, I'm supporting one - and while the community is clearly not ready to hand one out, I think that it will inevitably happen if Still continues his pattern of behavior. Toa Nidhiki05 22:02, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

As others have alluded to, there is no such thing as a one-sided edit war. Several editors dogpiled on many of those articles, and I cited two whose behavior was much worse, chock full of grossly inappropriate commentary. There are a bunch of editors in this area who commit gross and repeated violations of WP:PETTIFOG, WP:AGF, WP:TE, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:FORUMSHOP, and WP:FILIBUSTERS. Kerfuffler (talk) 22:15, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support Option 4: We know he's making unconstructive edits there. But this will be irrelevant because, (a) the topic ban is destined to fail, (b) He'll probably be blocked, and (c) if my proposal below succeeds, the article will be gold-locked pbp 17:31, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Focusing on one activist editor is not what will fix the larger problem. Misplaced Pages needs a way to rein in all activist-type editing. Binksternet (talk) 16:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose No evidence has been presented to show that there is anything to merit a topic ban. TFD (talk) 18:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support option one  WP:CIR.  In addition to the ANI threads mentioned, Still has been to Wikiquette Assistance twice within the last two weeks.  I took Still to Wikiquette Assistance after he/she called a comment of mine uncivil on his/her talk page.  Still's response to problem resolution is that he/she already knows what I think and why I think it.  , .  I asked Moonriddengirl here, "Is potential libel something that editors should ignore". 

Additional diffs:

• Admin warning on August 25, . 
• Another Wikiquette discussion, accusation of personal attack
• Still recommends a blog by "Guest Commentator". 

Unscintillating (talk) 22:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose For most of the reasons already mentioned above. A topic ban is not the solution to a problem that is much larger than one editor. I have seen marked improvement in StillStanding's approach to collaborative editing, even in the past week, probably due to some excellent (and generous) coaching that he has received from other editors and admins. I think he has the potential to be a great contributor here once he learns how to effectively influence, negotiate and compromise. Also, there are some unclean hands in this situation: I've observed a few other editors goading him in truly shameful fashion.

As long as his interactions continue to trend positive, he should be able to remain involved, even with politically charged topics. – MrX 23:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. This user is capable of self-restraint and showed it in the middle of a controversial article. Please don't ban a person for trying. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:14, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose as overkill. --Nouniquenames (talk) 01:22, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1 Initially I was not going to comment on Still but because of his continued battleground attitude I feel there is no other option. I had not even suggested a topic ban on him, and he is now suggesting that I be topic banned while this discussion is ongoing! It is clear he has no intention on working collaboratively with anyone that does not share his personal beliefs. Arzel (talk) 01:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't you see the issue with suggesting someone should be topic banned because they suggested you should be topic banned? Still also specifically says he does not endorse a topic ban against you. That is, you have misrepresented his position in it's entirety to justify a topic ban. You have unclean hands supporting this. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:15, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - StillStanding is an active editor who is very dedicated to restoring what he views as a neutral POV. Although he's a little too liberal for my taste, he's an excellent counterweight to a lot of conservative editors. Acoma Magic (talk) 13:13, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Meh. StillStanding is an active, uncivil, POV warrior, with policy comprehension issues. However, that, without policy comprehension issues, describes most of the participants in American politics articles. I don't think adequate evidence has been presented to single out StillStanding. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG much? Let's see:

• PA/AGF/CIVIL?

• encouraging someone to edit-war?

• admitting to stalking, then trying to justify it because you want to edit-war?

• complaint from another user about stalking?

• falsely accusing another admin based on a strawman?

Is that behavior expected of an admin?

In case anyone wonders why those examples are all from interactions with StillStanding-247, it's because, as far as I can tell, Arthur Rubin spends the vast majority of his time on Misplaced Pages arguing with StillStanding-247. —Kerfuffler 10:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• oppose as insufficient. This long drawn-out combat involves too many people to hang it all on just one of the offenders. Mangoe (talk) 12:20, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose If I may bore people here with history, Sarah Palin was a massive battleground four years ago. My first action with that article was to warn an editor for edit warring after 7RR. That editor, along with the other parties to the battleground edit warring toxic environment, were not topic banned. Article probation was put in place, and worked well. That editor went on to make many fine edits to that article. Of course, that is not to say history will repeat itself - but in my experience, article probation works exceedingly well. Still is not the only editor there with strong opinions. If we topic ban him, we will be right back here regarding another editor, and another. KillerChihuahua 12:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose I have come accross this editor several times and in many of his disputes, he came accross as a balancing counterweight to to editors with extreme views. Pass a Method talk 19:29, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Proposal: General Sanctions authorized by the community

Similarly, a couple of possible ways to handle community-imposed sanctions.

A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 04:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• As proposer: Support option 1 from areas and option 1 from time frames (that means "Articles about American presidential and vice-presidential candidates and their campaigns, broadly construed" under the GS, with the GS to automatically expire after 3 months). A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 04:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support options 1 and 1 per Fluffernutter. These articles are rapidly spinning out of control. Admins should enforce these sanctions on a near-zero tolerance basis. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose in preference to a T-ban, as proposed above. Still-24's early history suggests he has potential to be a highly valuable contributor to the overall project; he just has trouble in certain topic areas. If sanctions are imposed, they should be narrowly crafted to protect Misplaced Pages while still allowing the user to contribute, if possible. Belchfire-TALK 05:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

This proposal is not specifically about Still. Considering the tag teaming you are involved in here: , Edit warring to insert material here: . Unexplained removals of text which should be easy to verify: . Removing content which should be easy to verify after tagging for tw weeks , Removing sourced content as "obvious OR": , I can see why you are against extending sanctions to all within this topic area. This is far far from an exhaustive list. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support 1 from areas and 5 from time frames, or sanctions to be reapplied automatically starting 3 months before each election. I do not see any reason why the situation is likely to get better for future election cycles. We also should not expect topics bans to resolve this for the future - note that most of the editors in the current set of disputes joined after 2008, so probably this would be the same case for 2016. Arc de Ciel (talk) 05:46, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Opppose per my comments above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • ?? Your comments above say "seems like a good idea" for full protection. So you'd rather completely lock'em down instead of probation? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Support 1/1 Thanks for that, I misread the suggested sanctions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Request for clarification There seems to be some confusion as to whether the proposed sanctions are addressed specifically to Still24/7, or are meant to be broadly applicable to all editors. It would be helpful for the proposer to make this explicit. (My support is conditional on the latter interpretation.) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:59, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • This is meant for everyone and anyone. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:01, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • That's what I had assumed as well. Arc de Ciel (talk) 06:03, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1/1 for all editors. (Note, now second choice to full protection below (but still supporting, obviously). Black Kite (talk) 17:09, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• The suggestion is for allowing stricter sanctions for misconduct on these articles, not sanctions on specific editors.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 06:08, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• I know, I was making it clear per the request for clarification just above my posting. Black Kite (talk) 06:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support. About time. Viriditas (talk) 06:11, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• 1/1 is a good idea. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 06:15, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support proposal 2 - 1. Political BLPs are getting all kinds of crap from partisans involved in the elections. FurrySings (talk) 06:27, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support option 1 (though should we specify 2012 candidates? anyway, this covers biographies, campaigns, conventions without picking up a lot of articles that have had no or unrelated problems) with timeframe 1. If agenda-driven editors continue to be a problem after the election, sanctions can be re-imposed. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:47, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1/1 for all editors, without making reference to Still or any other particular editor, withour prejudice against expanding the timeframe should problems with partisan editors continue. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 06:55, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support 2/5 There are plenty of congressional races which invite the same sort of problematic editing behavior. Or as Arc en Ciel suggested, sanctions to be reapplied automatically starting 3 months before each election, since it's likely to be a recurring problem each election cycle. Mojoworker (talk) 06:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1/1 at least, we should have done this a while back, it's more than merited at this point. Mark Arsten (talk) 10:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support placing all WP:BLP covered articles connected with politics for all nations (not just the US, as the same occurs in other articles as well, though with less visibility to most editors) for a period of 3 months prior to any elections in such countries under "silly season protection" with the goal of reducing the use of such articles as campaign vehicles. Collect (talk) 12:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• By any elections, Collect, you mean that articles about US presidential candidates would have been under protection since about November 2010, three months before the first primary elections? —C.Fred (talk) 13:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think elections in other nations have the same sort of effect on wikipedia as the US ones. IRWolfie- (talk)

Off the top of my head, I don't recall seeing much drama related to Mongolian politics, Altankhuyag seems to have generated very little wiki-controversy, at least. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

The examples most currently noted are ones aimed at Australian politics, although UK articles are also known for such edits. And no -- since the elections are at the start of November, the candidates and persons involved and articles directly relating to them per WP:BLP should be restricted as of the start of August before the actual election -- not in perpetuity. BTW, the first primary elections for the 2012 cycle were not in 2010. <g> In the case of Australia, see indicating a reasonable likelihood of an election there in the near future. And of course the infamous edits on British MPs in the past as well. And the French DSK article, inter alia. And Canadian BLPs. So much for "this only applies to the US". Political BLPs are so routinely used for campaign purposes that they are a long-term major problem for Misplaced Pages. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I would support an extension to a list of other countries as well. Arc de Ciel (talk) 16:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support 2/1. 2/5 would be my second choice. I also like Arc de Ciel's recurring protection proposal (assuming that the articles are removed from probation) and Collect's idea has merit, although I suspect we could tailor it a bit to make it less unwieldy. The only other countries which seem to have experienced such election-period nonsense in en.wp have been the US, Canada, the United Kingdom, and Australia (all populous, industrialized, English-speaking nations). I'd be willing to bet that Collect's suggestion, applied to just those four nations, would essentially accomplish the same thing with far less overhead. Just a thought. Horologium (talk) 13:16, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Support Support 1-4. Include all think tanks that comment on political issues in the US etc. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:27, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support and include all that abortion related fluff as well, SPLC, Chick fil A, FRC, and more.--JOJ 13:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Agree, and any polemics on the talk pages should also lead to topic bans or blocks etc. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:41, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support 2 / 1 - Basically 1RR type restrictions, forcing WP:BRD, a slightly slower pace that is less reactive, for all candidates in all seats at every level of govt. Under WP:IAR, I would also support full protection on the 4 big articles for P/VP, and allow modification only via the talk page/review/admin, until after the election, around Dec. 1. This isn't a news site, it is an encyclopedia, and preserving the peace and sanity justifies the protections, which at this point could arguably be described as not "preemptive". Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I think an interesting experiment would be to sysop protect all the key election related articles; that would enforce a slower approach to the article building. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Question How would this work? For example suppose Editor XYZ is being a disruptive ass on the talk page of one of these articles? Is any admin (involved?) allowed to come in and say "XYZ thou art being an disruptive ass and thou art banned from this article for X months?" then enforceable by blocks?  little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  14:11, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, that's exactly how it works (as long as the admin is not involved, of course). Black Kite (talk) 16:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support 1/1 Do NOT support using this as a catch-all for other stuff. That should be handled separately.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1/1 This will deal with any and all disruption, as editors will be required to be civil and follow BRD instead of disrupt. Toa Nidhiki05 14:57, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Moderate Support of 1/1 I say moderate because the problem is really that many editors seem to think that WP should be a repository of the daily news cycle. Much of the issue here is that many editors mistakenly believe that anything that gets published in the news today is deemed the most important thing in the article and must be included or others are censoring WP because of their political bias. These sanctions will not solve this problem. I suggest we apply a time line for most everything related to political season articles. With few exceptions one week must have passed before the inclusion of new controversial material. It has been my experience over the years that WP articles, especially BLP's are overwhelmed by daily events, especially if some think that these events make the subject look bad in some way. After a few days context regarding the events are determined and the event is almost always of no consequence. If editors would simply adhear to existing WP guidelines like WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENT and admins would actually come along and enforse these guidelines these articles would not be nearly as problematic. Arzel (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support; this area is going to be crappy, anyway, but this should make it a little easier to deal with the flood of POV-pushing around this time of year. I'd prefer 2/1; if we can't get consensus on that, 1/1 is OK. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose, full protect instead: See my comment above and my proposal below pbp 15:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Clamp down on political campaigning on Misplaced Pages. Binksternet (talk) 16:16, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support Option 1/Timeframe 5 Indefinitely could be 2 hours or 2 years, but it can be lifted based on when it's necessary. I agree with Sphilbrick that all issues should be addressed individually. Go Phightins! (talk) 18:27, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support Option 1-4/Timeframe 1, include sexual politics, eg LGBT rights.  little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  19:01, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Could you clarify whether you mean option 1 time frame 4, or options 1-4 without specifying a time frame please? Go Phightins! (talk) 19:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Whilst I understand why you want to include those, that would be a huge range of additions, and actually quite difficult to define. Black Kite (talk) 19:31, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Would "Same sex marriage" narrowly construed be better? While an unfortuante few come to wikipedia to spew forth a hateful agenda, there are quite a few editors who fight back. Though the cause may be noble, the latter group is no more welcome than the first if they are editing not for the encylcopedia, but rather for WP:THERAPY.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  20:46, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

That doesn't make much sense. If people come to "fight back", they will most likely dissolve away when the first group is dealt with. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:23, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

No, that is unlikley. There are many editors who appear to be on a mission to tag anti LGBT groups. I have no objection to this principle. Let the sunshine in via RS and the reader can decide. However a subset of these editors do so with prejudice and in POV fashion, which is not something we should tolerate.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  02:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "There are many editors who appear to be on a mission to tag anti LGBT groups. I have no objection to this principle". IRWolfie- (talk) 09:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support Options 2 and 2. Alternatively, topic ban (and tar and feather) everyone who is obviously here to push a political agenda. It would be really nice if logging in didn't mean seeing Bill O'Reily's minions battle it out with Keith Olberman's. Sædon 20:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think admins have good sense to be able to spot POV pushing editors when they get disruptive. Most of the editors pushing POVs on this topic aren't particularly discrete. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support options 1/1. It's about time. ~Adjwilley (talk) 21:55, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment Obama is already under article probation, and has been for about 4 years. I have supported for some time having article probation for all candidates and vp candidates during election season (post nom until after swearing in, or until no longer needed) so I would support 1. KillerChihuahua 11:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• support at least 1/1, would like to suggest 4/1 which is to say, the edit war extends over a wide range of political topics, especially including the SPLC-condemned social conservative groups and some other related topics. Mangoe (talk) 12:24, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1 with 1RR/24h: this would be much more productive than the current full protection. In fact, given the general support for this option / opposition to protection, I think it's a travesty that the article is protected at all. I know I've gone beyond 1RR on this article but I'd be delighted to cut down to that level if it were a generalized disarmament. Homunq (talk) 17:24, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1/1 Pass a Method talk 19:40, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Expanding on suggestion above

Place all WP:BLP covered articles connected with politics for the US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and France for a period of 3 months prior to any major elections in such countries under "silly season protection" with the goal of reducing the use of such articles as campaign vehicles.

• Support as proposer. Collect (talk) 12:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment/question: this sounds like something which might be helpful, but to be able to !vote for sure, I'd want to see a definition of what you're calling "silly season protection". Apt as the descriptor is, it doesn't tell us what the protection would do/allow/prohibit. Also, the country list seems a bit arbitrary - is this based on experience of which countries' elections tend to go craziest or something? Why this set? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

It was based on input from two others above - it was said that those countries appear to have the greatest problem with Misplaced Pages BLPs being edited for political campaign purposes in the past. As for anyone who does not see that the problem exists (the Earth still moves), there is very little I can say. There is absolutely no doubt that it has been seen in multiple articles over a period of years, with Misplaced Pages being the loser as a result. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

And by "protection" I refer to protection in line with what has been widely supported above for American political articles in general directly above -- if it is unclear what the word means in that proposal, then the same unclarity applies here. If the usage there is clear, then it is similarly clear here. Collect (talk) 18:00, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose I'd oppose this until such a time as it is demonstrated to be an issue. If for any particular nation it does become an issue, it can be highlighted at ANI and maybe dealt with at that stage. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose as being very vague, and as unnecessary bureaucracy anyway. Yes, during the months prior to a major election in a larger country, a lot of tendentious edits happen on articles directly related to that election. However, I have yet to see any reason to believe why existing community procedures don't already adequately cover when things get particularly nasty. This would extend sanctions, editing restrictions and whatever else this vague proposal suggests to pages that don't necessarily need them and thus potentially turn off new editors to the community. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 18:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - I can't find the comment that lists these particular countries - they seem exceedingly arbitrary. Never mind, I found the comment, though NZ wasn't there. They still seem arbitrary. Oppose. StAnselm (talk) 05:20, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Counterproposal: full protection

Above, I suggested that Paul Ryan be full-protected until after the election (~2 months); a couple of editors liked the idea. A few more mentioned full protection in the sanctions section above. Since everybody last night/this morning seems to be making proposals, I'll make one too pbp 15:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support as nom pbp 15:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support as an addition to the above proposal There are clearly major issues with the edit warring on the Paul Ryan article and that the cause is the US election. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I've thought about it, and would prefer to see how the current community sanctions pan out first. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. Not only no, but hell no. Don't punish the 90% bacuse the 10% can't play well with others. block not lock.--JOJ 15:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

By that logic, if a person made 900 solid edits, and 100 vandalism edits, he should be allowed to continue in this manner. Ridiculous! If vandalism edits were 10% of an editors edit count, he'd not only be blocked, but indeffed! Blocks and protection are supposed to be preventive. We know that there will be more vandalism and content disputes on this article, probably a lot around Halloween. We had to lock the major candidates in 2008, and it's time to look at locking them now. Under your proposal, this will turn into a giant time sink for admins, to say nothing of being a fairly unstable article. Under my proposal, consensus is achieved for every single edit, the article is stable, and admins don't have to waste their time blocking person after person pbp 15:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I thought we were talking about edit warring, not vandalism, and this is about 10% of the editors, not 10% of a single editors edits. If there is disruption, block the editor, but place the article(s) on 1RR and block anyone breaching that. Not too hard to figure that out.--JOJ 16:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• If it was actually 10% of editors, I'd agree with you. A quick look at the history of the article gives the lie to that statement, though. Black Kite (talk) 16:15, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support for all 4 top candidates. Again, we are an encyclopedia, not Google news, accuracy before timeliness, and these are disrupting the regular business of building the entire encyclopedia, not just these articles, demonstrated by the fact that we are here, now. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support as nom getting consensus before edits at this peak time is a good thing. As long as consensus is based on policy, not vote-rigging from POV project members GimliDotNet 16:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support and add Barack Obama, Mitt Romney, and associated articles. Black Kite (talk) 16:15, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

First you support placing the article(s) on probation, now you support the counter proposal to fully protect the article(s). Which is it, because they don't mesh?--JOJ 16:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

This one (which didn't exist earlier). I'll make it clearer above for you if you want. Black Kite (talk)

Ok, thanks. :)--JOJ 16:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Edit requests required for article changes. Binksternet (talk) 16:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support as an addition to the above proposal. The problem is widespread. Paul Ryan just happens to be the most high-profile article which it has spread to at this time. Arc de Ciel (talk) 16:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose for the moment. If General Sanctions pass, they will give admins a much more extensive toolkit to curtail bad behavior on these articles, to the (hopeful) extent that editors who disrupt the environment can be easily removed. If that's in place, there's no need to lock down the article(s) under full protection. My preference is to leave the articles open for editing (they are, after all, extremely popular and attract many new editors) and just remove those editors who can't play well with others using GS. If GS fail to handle the matter - if there's extensive socking, or if every single editor who edits the article can't behave, etc, then full-protection may have to go back in place, but I prefer to leave it as something we could deploy, if we end up needing to, in the future. (Note: this non-full-protection should obviously not go into effect unless and until General Sanctions pass. Without GS, full-protection at admin discretion is appropriate). A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:41, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose with a slightly different rationale than JOJ: don't punish Misplaced Pages's readers because a few editors can't behave themselves. The hammer should fall hard on those who have created problems. But editors who are willing to engage the articles in a constructive way should not only be permitted but encouraged to improve these articles. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:44, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per Boris. While many of us lament the news-y state of election articles, stuff is undoubtedly going to happen in the next two months and we'd disservice our readers by keeping the articles so out of date. Probation should take care of the issues. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per all above. Maybe we do this on Election Day, if we can't keep up with everything. But constructive editors should almost always be accommodated if possible and we would do a disservice to our readers to not allow constructive editors to keep the articles in good quality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ] (] • ])
• Couldn't Oppose More Absolutely unnecessary to limit all improvement of articles for 2 months because of some editors who can't control themselves. Maybe, and I emphasize maybe, if this is necessary the day before election day and the morning of, this could be acceptable. But this suggestion is ludicrous at best, flat-out offensive at worst. General sanctions are an infinitely better idea. Go Phightins! (talk) 18:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I would point out that being full protected ≠ not being edited pbp 18:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

It can only be edited by admins, correct? That's less than .01% of editors. Go Phightins! (talk) 18:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Plus edit requests. It just means that each edit can be quickly checked before adding it, and enforces the requirement for consensus before the edits are made (plus eliminating simple vandalism). Arc de Ciel (talk) 22:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Well edit requests can only be carried out by admins...there are roughly 1500 admins and 17.5 million editors, you do the math. It's just not a good idea. Go Phightins! (talk) 00:42, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per Phightins, who says it very very well. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Reminds me of the story of a Zen student asking his teacher how long until I become enlightened? The teacher started with "10 years", then when he saw the student was in a hurry, "Sorry, 20 years". The student started to say that he planned to work very hard at it, when his teacher replied "30 years". The article is no longer truthful, by virtue of omission, and needs to be edited. Waiting for an election is not a solution. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:09, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Although it will never happen, it is probably a good idea for all political articles to be locked during the prime election period. It would still allow information to be added via talk page concensus and RfC, but it would go a long way in removing tedious "news of the day" edits which serve no historical value. OR we could establish a time frame for additions. Events less than one week old could not be added. It usually takes a few news cycles for the entire story to get out anyway, and this would eliminate many edit wars regarding something that just happened. Arzel (talk) 01:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. The articles need further changes during the election period to provide relevant, up to date information. Providing accurate, unbiased political information at the time it matters most is very difficult, but worth doing. Placing power over article content into the hands of the admin corps would further concentrate power in Misplaced Pages and create further incentives to ongoing efforts to banish or elevate admins based on political considerations. I no longer think that the complete political domination of Misplaced Pages by crass outside interests can actually be prevented, but stopping this proposal for now may delay it. Wnt (talk) 05:23, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment I think this edit reads as a threat. The whole conversation is full of accusations without evidence and is yet more proof there is a WP:WITCHHUNT ongoing. GimliDotNet 05:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The essay you mention says, "The only purpose of blocking, banning, and other sanctions is to protect the encyclopedia from harm."  The diff here and in follow-up here, and the continuing denial here, show a potential for harm to the encyclopedia.  Unscintillating (talk) 11:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, largely per Boris. At least for the time being. Give the general sanctions a chance to work; if they don't, we can reconsider. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support Any positive contributions is far outweighed by the effort involved in monitoring the political hacks who come in between now and the election. The people who really want to contribute towards a lasting encyclopedia will be here after the elections are over. FurrySings (talk) 02:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support: No, we do not need this article to be "constantly up-to-date" - isn't one of the premises of Misplaced Pages that we're NOT a news ticker? What we need this article to be is unfailingly accurate, and that can be assured under the circumstances much better by talk page consensus than by a flurry of editors with axes to grind. Somehow I can live - and suspect most others can as well - with a day's delay in amending an encyclopedia article. I would be very interested in hearing the Opposers' take on how failure to include the last 24 hours' worth of news cycle "punishes" the readers more than not having to wade through a blizzard of vandalism, subtle or otherwise, aids them. Ravenswing 04:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose per SBHB and Phightins. KillerChihuahua 12:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Strong oppose: full protection does get rid of some bathwater, but it also throws out a whole lot of baby. Homunq (talk) 17:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. The level of disruption is not unusual enough to justify this. If it were something like Stephanie Adams, maybe. Even then, I'd let ArbCom do it. Tijfo098 (talk) 21:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - General power of administrators to toss political hacks making disruptive edits is correct approach. Carrite (talk) 23:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

One more proposal: indef semi-protection in addition to sanctions

I see gold-lock has failed, but is there a consensus to raise the article's protection level to semi-protected indefinitely? pbp 02:06, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

User page breaching wikipedia policies

User:Timeshift9's Userpage has become a political blog where he posts quite abusive comments about political opponents. The user has turned his page into a blog. This is in breach of WP:UPNOT and WP:NOTBLOG. This section states 'You may not host your own website, blog, wiki, or cloud at Misplaced Pages'. On his Userpage he has an excessive level of political commentary, where he has labelled Conservative Politicians 'disgusting', 'loons' and other abusive politcal commentary. I would consider myself a progressive, but would not dream of my userpage into a blog. He latest commentary today is about Tony Abbott, a senior conservative politican. 'WHEN Tony Abbott lost the University of Sydney Students' Representative Council presidency, he allegedly approached the woman who beat him and, leaning into her face, punched the wall on each side of her head... you know what's worse? That nobody is surprised by his actions. It's just pure Abbott'. I would like an uninvolved admin to take a look and give an opinion. Welshboyau11 (talk) 09:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Admins looking at this should also have a look at the "Neutral point of view" topic at the top of this page, where a topic ban on Australian politics is currently passing on the votes on the OP. Orderinchaos 09:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• I took a look and I agreed that this was well beyond what is acceptable, so I deleted it. We are here to build an encyclopedia, and there are plenty of blogging sites out there. --John (talk) 09:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Looks like User:John has deleted it. I'm sure this ANI post has absolutely nothing to do with Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Australian_Greens. Nothing at all. No siree! —Tom Morris (talk) 09:51, 8 September 2012 (UTC

• Comment I'm not going to get into a slanging match here but it has Nothing whatsoever to do with it. I haven't mentioned his user page until he went overboard now with Abbott. He went way to far. I don't dislike you or even him personally. This is about policies and their correct and fair application. Welshboyau11 (talk) 09:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Right, and it would have nothing to do with the fact that you have been trying to get him banned on this very board over an unrelated dispute you're having with him? Orderinchaos 10:03, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Nup, I don't want him banned. I just want his Userpage to follow the rules, and not be a personal abusive blog where he accuses people of being disgusting and loons. Welshboyau11 (talk) 10:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• I am still looking at this matter. I took Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Timeshift9 into account when deleting. I am particularly scrutinizing the conduct of Welshboyau11. --John (talk) 09:55, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• I have now restored the UP per Orderinchaos's request. --John (talk) 10:07, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Why? It's clearly breaching policies. WP:UPNOT and WP:NOTBLOG. Welshboyau11 (talk) 10:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Er, yes, why? A clearer violation of WP:NOT#SOAPBOX you'd be hard pressed to find. If not deletion, it needs very large amounts of content removal. Black Kite (talk) 10:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Is there any particular reason why we shouldn't just have another MfD? There was one back in 2011 which was closed as delete and then overturned at DRV. It would seem reasonable to suggest that MfDing it means we might have a chance to see if consensus has changed since the last MfD/DRV. Personally, I'm okay with a small amount of user advocacy on user pages and I do not, for instance, get all concerned about having opinion or identity userboxes. But the simple principle of "hey, look, nothing wrong with having opinions but if you want to run a blog, Wordpress and Tumblr exist, go there" seems a pretty reasonable objection. —Tom Morris (talk) 10:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Possibly a good idea. The previous MfD and DRV are irrelevant anyway because the content of the page is completely different from what it was then . Black Kite (talk) 10:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• If anyone wants a further admin opinion, they can have mine: the page should be summarily deleted - no discussion necessary. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• I agree with Black Kite and Tom Morris that this stuff does not belong here, but I acceded to the request from OiC to give the user a chance to defend this work and maybe amend it before outright deletion. If there is a BLP concern it needs to be instantly deleted but I am not aware of that being the case. What harm will leaving it up for 24 hours do? --John (talk) 10:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• None, I suppose; I simply couldn't see any way that the page doesn't violate WP:SOAP. Black Kite (talk) 10:35, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• I have now blocked Welshboyau11 (talk · contribs) 24 hours for continuing this dispute after he had made others aware of it and I had asked him nicely several times not to. If anyone feels I have been heavy-handed I shall be glad to reconsider. --John (talk) 10:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment To explain my request to John - I asked him (as the deleting admin) for a courtesy restoration to give Timeshift9 time to fix it, and notice that the community desired him to do so. I think a user in good standing with the sort of contributions Timeshift9 has to the encyclopaedia deserves that, although it isn't a free pass and if he doesn't fix it, then it ceases to be up to him (or me, for that matter). Orderinchaos 11:00, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment After looking at the page, I agree that it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages. I suggest that it be blanked first, and that Timeshift9 be given a chance to copy the contents that he wants to keep. After Timeshift9 has had a chance to do so, it should be deleted and a new user page created. FurrySings (talk) 13:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Clearly exceeds the tolerance of WP:UP. Had I stumbled across it, I would have just MfD'ed it and not given it a second thought. Blanking is another option. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Final comment I feel like my initial instinct to delete was justified; I also feel like I was justified in acceding to the request to undelete. At the same time, I have no objection if another admin wants to redelete or blank it. --John (talk) 14:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I also agree it should be deleted. Perhaps MfD is the way forward? Misplaced Pages isn't the place to host "rant time!" . IRWolfie- (talk) 15:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Fixed - I've boldly cleaned it up, which is the least drastic solution, as he will still have access to the data. I've left a note on his talk page explaining this, and that if he reverts, either myself or another admin is likely to either speedy delete or send to MfD, based on policy and a clear consensus here. He probably won't like it, but it is the least aggressive way to solve this issue. Any admin that feels it still needs to go to MfD/CSD is free to without hurting my feelings, I just felt like this was a minimal solution. If he restores, stronger delete action may be needed. Hopefully he will appreciate the mildness of this solution and just move on. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:07, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Please note that I've just blocked Welshboyau11 (talk · contribs) for an indefinite period as being the latest sockpuppet of another editor (please refer to my block rationale on their talk page). Nick-D (talk) 23:16, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I note that Welshboy11 has been blocked as a sock. I have had this questioned multiple times over my years at wikipedia, and it's always been decided that some level is ok, but not excessive pages and pages. I admit that it may have grown a bit bushy of late, i've taken a chainsaw to it and introduced a minimalist version which is far less than the previous one that was given the all-clear in the last time it was brought up. Timeshift (talk) 00:20, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Regardless of the motivations of the original nominator, this page needs to be quickly sent for deletion. --Nouniquenames (talk) 01:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Not at all, if you read the above. Timeshift (talk) 01:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Timeshift9 reverted Dennis Brown's bold editing of the page; I have restored it. Not only is it a blog, it is also full of BLP violations, attacks on living people. If Timeshift reverts my restoration, the page needs to be taken to MfD. If it is deleted, and Timeshift recreates it, or starts a new page with the same problems, he should be blocked indef for disruptiveness. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:37, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I did not revert. Have you read what I typed above? Timeshift (talk) 03:42, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, it seems Timeshift removed about 3/4 of the disputed content - see this composite diff. Orderinchaos 03:47, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(ec) You did not completely revert Dennis, so I withdraw that, but your "chainsaw" version is still not acceptable - it still has serious BLP violations. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:48, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Like what? Some level is ok on a userpage. 13,000 characters were removed. i readded 3,000 characters. Less than a page and very trim, more trim than the last time i was asked to scale back - i reiterate - some is allowed, notblog does not apply to userpages. If there is a specific BLP vio, then tell me the specific vio, and i'll fix it, as was said last time too. Timeshift (talk) 03:51, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I not only read the above, I read the page under discussion. There were unsourced negative BLP items still there alongside other entries that had no buisness there. I'll mention the possible exception (for the sourced material only) if the material is legitimately to be used in the near future for creating or updating articles here. If that is the case, the material should still not be where it is. The sourced info should, in my opinion, be moved to a subpage (to lessen visibility) and the unsourced portion must not be retained. That still only discusses the BLP issues, not the soapbox or blog problems. --Nouniquenames (talk) 15:17, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't think that it does - can you please explain what these are? The material looks like some middle-of-the road type comments about some public figures. Can you please also explain why you also removed the first paragraph of the talk page in this edit? - it's about why Misplaced Pages is good, and has nothing whatsoever to do with BLP issues or political commentary. I have to say that I'm really concerned with the apparent enthusiasm some editors seem to have to remove stuff from other editors' talk pages; this should only be a last resort, and should be undertaken with great care. Nick-D (talk) 04:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

This has been explained in significant detail on my talk page, in one of the most depressing conversations I have ever been involved in in my 7 years on Misplaced Pages. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Thankyou. Socks and their associated mopups... sigh. Timeshift (talk) 04:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Timeshift9 (2nd nomination). Sigh per above. Timeshift (talk) 06:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Move to close - I've given my comments at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Timeshift9 (2nd nomination) so won't comment here on the actual content. But given this has been raised elsewhere (notionally more appropriate) by an editor in far better standing (not a sock-puppet) and given the genesis of this particular notice (arguably vexatious), can we at least agree this particular case should be closed so that we avoid data redundancy? Cheers, Stalwart111 (talk) 06:53, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

User is mass tagging images for deletion under false and misleading rationales

Bulwersator (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I do not know how long this has been going on. His/her contributions section is replete with a massive amount of "deletion tagging" and warnings to users about uploaded images, with the rationale that "no source is provided". I don't know if the user is using a bot, or is actually opening up the image descriptions to confirm whether or not the image has a provided source. Some of these nominations appear valid, but quite a few appear erroneous. This first came to my attention when this public domain image: File:John Albert Gardner III.jpg was nominated for deletion as no source. Source listed is California Department of Corrections photographic records. Bulwersator then added the image to Misplaced Pages:Possibly unfree files/2012 September 6, again with the rationale that no source was given. When I asked about this, Bulwersator seems to feel that it must have an online link to verify the source. I pointed out WP:PAYWALL, but the user still thinks that only an online link can verify the source, and that we should wait for the result of the deletion discussion. I don't really trust those deletion requests. I've trusted that process in that past but many a time an admin has come through and simply deleted the image without verifying that the nomination was valid, and simply just trusted that the person nominating the image for deletion was correct. This happened to me a few times, by a now retired admin, whose name I will not mention here.

Bulwersator has also done this with several other images, File:963 AWACS.JPG, File:BoNM Rhodesia3.JPG, File:Ogden Portrait.JPG, File:Vicksburg-USCT.JPG, File:Discovery space viewedit1.jpg, to name only a few, and his talk page is full of several requests to either stop or to explain, including by an admin, most of which is ignored.--JOJ 15:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• I caught a couple of these the other day, where the source website had simply moved location, and I was able to easily find them at the Wayback machine. If this a continuing problem, then yes, something needs to be done. Eventually, the source location for every file will move on the web and you have to rely on a bit of common sense, otherwise all images would be deleted over time, making the idea of having images from other sources at WP unworkable. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:16, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Appreciate that comment. What is your take on offline sources, or "Self" sources? Bulwersator seems to feel that unless there is alink that he can verify teh source from his computer, it is technically unsourced. This is troubling because it makes me wonder just how many images have been erroneously deleted under his rationale.--JOJ 16:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Verification must be possible, it isn't required that it is easy, whether it is a fact or an image. If it is easy to see that a website source has simply moved, then nominating the image for deletion is just disruptive. At the very least, you start a discussion somewhere instead of slamming it with a speedy tag. Now someone is going to have to go and look at every speedy tag he has ever done, which is going to take an insane amount of time. This is very, very disruptive to say the least. I would hope that admins rejected his tags about sources in most cases if it is just a matter of a source moving. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Wow, based on the conversations on his talk page, he seems to think that every images must have a free weblink provided in the licensing, which is clearly not the case. If we required free weblinks for sources, half of WP's citations and images would disappear over night. Either he needs to learn properly about sourcing, including that paywalls and offline sources are fine for sourcing, or he needs to be topic banned from nominating images for deletion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I know that there are other forms of sourcing - "own work" based on AGF, books and other publications, collections that are not digitized, confirmations by trusted person that permission exists/existed (OTRS etc) and more. It was not my intention to imply that "free weblinks" are the only allowed source Bulwersator (talk) 17:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Well, I looked at this one File:963_AWACS.JPG and Bulwersator is absolutely correct - if this is a copyrighted image, the photo is a derivate work and therefore cannot be released under a free license. If it's not a copyrighted work, the uploader needs to specify that (and why) on the image page. Either way, yes, it needs to be tagged. Haven't looked at the others - will do so now. Black Kite (talk) 16:27, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Right, what I see is a mixture of copyrighted items and non-copyrighted ones. The uploaders appear to believe that they can take photos of things and the copyright belongs to them. They are wrong. Where copyright exists, the images must be tagged as non-free. Where they aren't, it must be clearly explained why they're free (out of copyright, never coprighted, etc. ). Bulwersator has possibly been a little too keen here, but policy-wise they are generally correct. Black Kite (talk) 16:30, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• • • The patch itself would fall under PD as a work of the US Govt. The photographer was the editor that uploaded, and he released his contribution of the "art" into the PD, whether or not it was a part of his job, which he claims it was, so it would automatically be in the PD. They are not correct. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
      • Yes, that's my point. If it's PD, it needs a tag saying that (probably PS-US-Gov or something similar). If the uploaders don't tag as such, other editors are free to question it. Black Kite (talk) 16:35, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
        • I believe there is a tag saying so, at least on the patch.--JOJ 16:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
          • It does say that in the summary. WP:BLUE comes to mind when it is a work of the US Govt. and declared as much, but in this case, he explains it adequately. And discussing is very different than speedy delete. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:37, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
            • Woah, hang on - the tag and summary wasn't on it when Bulwersator nominated it - it was only added today. Thus, my point stands - it should have been tagged properly (which it is now). You can't blame an editor for questioning something that isn't tagged correctly. Black Kite (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
              • Retagged image was moved to Commons. Thanks for comments and fixes Bulwersator (talk) 17:23, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Some of the images in question are photographs of 3-D works of art, e.g., File:Vicksburg-USCT.JPG. A photograph of a 3-D work of art is a new work, given the photographer's options in choosing the angle, framing, etc.—that's supported by Misplaced Pages:FAQ/Copyright. I don't see any reason to leave those images up for discussion, unless he can make a valid claim that the uploader is not the photographer of the works. —C.Fred (talk) 16:44, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • But the two I removed speedy tags for the other day, NASA I believe and watermarked, were just a matter of the website changing locations. This is disruptive, even if that isn't his intention. I'm tight on copyright, but his idea that every image must be freely accessible on the internet to be verified, and these, shows a real, significant problem. Again, someone is going to need to filter through his contribs to weed this out and make sure we didn't lose good images due to a simple page move of the source. That isn't enforcing copyright, that is shotgun nominating based on a misconception of copyright policy and failure to do a little due diligence. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Well I appreciate that you have been actively checking whether or not images nominated for deletion have been validly nominated. That hasn't always been the case in the past with other admins, and it puts my mind at ease, at least a little, to know that some admins take the time to review the images before deleting.--JOJ 16:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
      • Well, my concern is that I normally do not check CSD for files. I just accidentally wandered into that area for the first time the other day, or I wouldn't have been aware of the problem. And I deal with copyright issues every day, so I'm fairly familiar with the law. My concern is that even if we catch most of them, some slip by and get deleted, and if he is making a lot of bad filings, it creates unnecessary work for admins. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
        • Which is why I filed this report. My first inclination was to have the user explain to me the rationale, but was at first ignored. I of course persisted, but his answers were unacceptable. You're right, this is disruptive and causes more head aches than it solves. I can't speak for everyone, but the image that I uploaded has a source clearly listed, but his rationale is that since its not an online source, its not a valid source.--JOJ 17:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
          • To be fair, the problem is that in the past we have had a lot of issues with non-free files being attributed to a PD source with no real proof, whereas the onus is on the uploader to prove its free-ness. This one isn't actually a very good example, unless someone had Photoshopped a mugshot it's fairly obvious that it's a valid California mugshot, but other images aren't that easy to fix. Black Kite (talk) 17:21, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Why tag on File:Discovery space viewedit1.jpg is "false and misleading"? This file is without source (and I tried to fix it, but google image search failed to find this image on website operated by NASA, it is without any useful description and without ID of photo) Bulwersator (talk) 17:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • But there you go again. Thinking that every image source must be easily found online. There is absolutely no requirement that says that verifiable information must be found online.--JOJ 17:36, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • We don't require every image to be available online, but we do require better source information than just what that image currently has. There's no immediate evidence beyond the uploader's claim it came from NASA (obviously only a few entities could make that pic).
    • However, to that end, image searches are much better done by tineye.com, which comes up with this NASA IOTD page, so we can fix the source and the like. Be aware that tineye doesn't know original from copies so often you may find images that might have actually originated at WP to be duplicated to blogs. --MASEM (t) 17:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
      • I know how image search works, thanks for info that tineye is again useful (I stopped using it about three months ago as it was clearly worse that google) Bulwersator (talk) 17:51, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
      • Source found with tineye, image copied to Commons Bulwersator (talk) 18:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • At some point, common sense has to come into play. Who the hell else COULD have done that photograph, Bulwersator? No one. You don't nominate things for deletion just because you can. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not deconstruct one, and you have to be able to determine which images really need discussion and which ones do not. Personally, I think you need to not be sending any photos to delete discussion at all because I don't think you understand the policy well enough to. It isn't personal, but we don't need a backlog of copyright discussions on images that aren't needing to be questioned. My opinion is that you are actually harming the project by creating unnecessary backlogs in an area that is already perpetually backlogged. I know you don't mean to, but you are. I would feel better if you voluntarily stayed out of image deletion for six months and learn the policy better. I would support a move to require this, as this isn't one or two issues, but a whole string of them that is causing problems. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:47, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
      • It was obviously made from ISS (full name: International Space Station). Images made by employees of Russian Federal Space Agency are not automatic public domain Bulwersator (talk) 17:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• File:BoNM Rhodesia3.JPG - yes, this one was my mistake as mentioned in deletion request that I closed 20 minutes after comment by 76.65.131.248. Bulwersator (talk) 18:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• I'll chime in to confirm that Bulwersator's behaviour is a problem. Per threads at WT:AST, they seem to have been indiscriminately tagging images sourced from NASA as being unsourced. As far as I can tell, they're either using a bot or using tool assistance, as they were making several nominations per minute in bursts from the 5th to the 7th (haven't done a detailed check today). They certainly aren't bothering to put in due diligence, per other comments in this thread. They have been approached by several users on their talk page about this, and as of yesterday hadn't responded to complaints (there are a couple of responses today, presumably due to this thread, but I'm getting a strong WP:IDHT impression from the tone of them). Long story short, please put the brakes on this, because it's a serious problem and the last several discussion attempts didn't seem to do much. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• This may or may not be of interest with regards to this discussion. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Statues

• File:Vicksburg-USCT.JPG - I wonder why obvious derivative work (photo of statue) was kept as "The original work is the photograph, not the statue: see Misplaced Pages:FAQ/Copyright" despite Misplaced Pages:FAQ/Copyright#Derivative_works and Freedom_of_panorama#United_States Bulwersator (talk) 17:51, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • The same problem - File:Ogden Portrait.JPG Bulwersator (talk) 17:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Photo is derivative work of statue, works of art are not covered by FOP in USA (see Freedom_of_panorama#United_States) (maybe statues are work of federal government or so old that copyright expired or for some other reason. But it was not mentioned in description, and still is not mentioned) Bulwersator (talk) 17:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • This is exactly what I'm talking about, you don't understand the policy, which is why I'm asking you to stay out of this part of Misplaced Pages until you do. There is no Freedom of panorama in the USA, but it doesn't apply to every building every made. And the decision is based on a consensus view of what is acceptable via policy, not our interpretation of US law as we are not lawyers. Either you learn the consensus, or you make mistakes. Generally, buildings and art before the 1970s (or 90s, depending upon statute ), when copyright law changed, are exempted (grandfathered) from panorama requirements, for example. Otherwise, you couldn't show pictures of old estates, homes, etc. Anything. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be mean to you, but your perspective is rigid and uninformed, which is why you are doing more harm than good. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:00, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • The best thing that I found is essay Misplaced Pages:Freedom of panorama with "In the United States, "freedom of panorama" exists only for buildings (17 USC 120). For photos of works of the visual arts (sculptures and statues, but also murals) there are no similar exemptions in the U.S. copyright law.". Unfortunately I was unable to find any policy about FOP Bulwersator (talk) 18:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • "your perspective is rigid and uninformed" so enwiki ignores potential copyright belonging to designers of statues, murals etc? Bulwersator (talk) 18:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
      • You are correct that there is no Freedom of Panorama in the U.S. except for buildings (any' building, whever built), but if the subject of the photograph is itself not copyrighted – for instance, if it as created prior to 1923, or was not labelled with the proper notice for the time period that was required (until 1968, if I remember correctly) – then Freedom of Panorama does not come into it, because images of non-copyrighted artworks are legal.Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Here is the Commons page, which explains which templates to use there, and they are WAY more rigid than we are. . If you need to fix a license on a page, fix it, don't delete the photo. Ask the contributor if you think the license needs refining. If it is obvious copyright infringement, great, CSD it, otherwise, you need to choose a less destructive methods of dealing with it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:03, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• We've had this issue with derivatives of 3D art in the USA before, and I can't remember what the outcome was - I've linked to this conversation at WT:NFC for more comment. Black Kite (talk) 18:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • 3D works of art do not have freedom of panorama in the US (per commons FOP). Furthermore, the photograph of a 3d work of art, while a derivative work of the original artist, creates a second copyright for the photographer since the angle, lighting and shadows selected for the art are creative elements the photographer can select. (this is counter to, say, a scan of a 2D work of art, where the act of scanning is presumed to be slavenly accurate as to introduce no creativity, and ergo there is no copyright possible on the scan itself. Now, if the statue is out of copyright timeframe, then the only copyright is what the photographer chooses (which we hope is a free license). --MASEM (t) 19:15, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Thanks. I couldn't remember if that was the case (i.e. the difference between public 3D art and say, a picture of a copyrighted toy, which I knew was always derivative.). Black Kite (talk) 19:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Question

So we have file that is likely to be PD but without source and without source identifiable by description, title and image search. What I am supposed to do with this? I ask, as at least part of editors seems to think that tagging with "no source" or nominating for PUF is a serious offence. Bulwersator (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• First you should try to contact the uploader since many people are simply sloppy when providing source and author data, especially for obviously old works. If you you don't get a sufficient response because of inactivity or other reasons there is still Files for deletion to dicuss the file. I'd also like to note that we don't need a working url as a source. Many images have been scanned from books by the uploader or the original weblink is broken. That's not a reason to speedily delete the file either. De728631 (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, uploader is also notified during nominating file for deletion. And I really know that url is not the only form of allowed source. Bulwersator (talk) 20:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • It's good practice to establish a helpful conversation before nominating something for deletion that can be saved. Because if that works you don't need a deletion nomination at all. If you ask me, leaving the messaging to the bot is quite impolite in such cases. De728631 (talk) 20:43, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• This guy appears to be the latest entry in what could be called the Betacommand School of Deletionism. Generally, their approach is slash-and-burn, with minimal communication with the uploader and little or no effort to help otherwise. The guys who've taken that approach in the past usually end up getting booted from wikipedia. Bulwerks should try to do things better than his banished predecessors have done. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I agree with that assessment. In fact I'll take it a step further. Some admins have gotten into quite a bit of trouble deleting these "tagged" images. Again I won't try and open up the big can of worms by naming him, but one admin with over 50,000 edits actually retired, because he got so much grief from other users whose images he deleted, that were erroneously nominated for deletion from guys like this. It needs to end. Editors nominating images for deletion need to justify the deletion request and not just nominate the image and let the admins work it out. Like Dennis said earlier, its disruptive.--JOJ 20:47, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• If the sourcing template says "NASA", then spend the five minutes on Google it would take to find a link to the NASA image in question. There doesn't have to be a working URL in the image description; per other threads on this subject, these links stop working whenever someone decides to change their web page structure. All there has to be is enough information that a motivated party could verify the stated source with a reasonable amount of effort. An analogous example is academic journal papers used as references in articles. Most of these are not freely available online - but they are readily verifiable by either using an academic internet connection (where the academic institution has paid for access to the journals), or by visiting a brick-and-mortar library to look it up. For images, or article content, where it is highly likely that the source given is correct, assume that the template accurately reflects the source. Only if there's doubt should other action be taken. Even then, step 1) is to contact the author/uploader to ask for clarification, and step 2) is to bring the image/citation to the attention of the relevant wikiprojects and ask them to dig further. Deletion is for after both of these avenues have failed, not before trying either one. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 20:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Maintaining the requirements for images or other medias is on the uploader or those using it, per BURDEN. Yes, its helpful to try to look for the source, but there is no requirement for this (much like BEFORE is not required for deletion). --MASEM (t) 22:01, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
    • So, by that logic, everybody who has ever uploaded anything is required to watch it like a hawk and instantly fix links when they break lest it be deleted for not having a source? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
      • Perhaps WP:BEFORE should be extended to images as well. Certainly, the spirit of it should apply. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
        • WP:BEFORE has no teeth, what is needed is common sense and nothing else. You don't go trying to delete every possible image just because the source has moved or you have a question about it. It is flat out assuming bad faith, nothing more complicated than that. If we need a policy that explains this, then Misplaced Pages is hopelessly broken. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:44, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
          • I also noticed several files on my watchlist and that fall under WPUSA come up for deletion and asked him to stop. Certainly there are files out there that should be deleted but Bulwersator doesn't seem to me to be doing much due diligence with their deletion submissions. Its just, as my kids call it, "ding, dong, ditch". Kumioko (talk) 00:39, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
            • Ding Dong Ditch? Clever. That's what this seems like to me as well. Just seems to nominate and lets the admins figure it out. The problem is that not every admin takes the time to ensure that the nomination is valid. He seems to think he is helping but in reality he is just causing a big mess. His talk page is full of people complaining about how he is doing these nominations. I'm just the first to take it to the next level with an ANI thread.--JOJ 00:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
              • I'm glad someone/you did. I thought about submitting one myself for about 1/8th of a second but my opinion isn't worth much these days so if I would have done submitted it someone would have voted it down just on principle. I give my opinion anyway of course. :-) But I am under no illusions of how many (maybe even most) in the community perceive me. Kumioko (talk) 01:17, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Meanwhile, over on Commons

• He's hitting there, too. Note that this image was one he had tagged here for deletion originally. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:22, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• This seems a strong case of "I don't hear you". I still think a topic ban is appropriate and I would support it without question. This causes way too much damage and work for others, plus the obvious loss of what is possibly good content. His comments thus far in this ANI and on his talk page can be summarized as "Prove it or it gets deleted" with no understanding whatsoever of the problem that others have with this kind of disruptive conduct. It is simply inconsistent with our goals here and a net negative for the greater project. Slash and burn, indeed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 21:35, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Topic ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• I support topic banning Bulwersator from all deletion processes. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative project. We should help, inquire, discuss and try to fix, rather than this high-speed slash and burn of other people's hard work. Bulwersator has been given warnings and asked nicely, yet he does not show any sign of flexibility. On balance, the harm of his work exceeds the value. Good faith Wikipedians are offended, and good images are lost. Jehochman 00:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support per above discussion. It seems he is trying to use deletion processes to attempt to alter policy to his desired position, rather than to enforce policy. Orderinchaos 00:30, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support - Unfortunately I also agree for whatever my opinion is worth. Kumioko (talk) 00:40, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support - Looking at the situation, and given B's attitude and IDHT behavior, it seems as if a topic ban is the answer. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support - I made a good faith attempt to discuss this with him on his talk page and he seemed very inflexible and very set in his attempts to continue nominating images, despite the massive amount of threads on his talk page telling him he was erroneously doing so. He was very stubborn with my image, first trying to get it speedy deleted, and when I removed the Speedy delete tag, he stubbornly nominated it for deletion. In fact, he continued to nominate other images, even after I shared my concern with him. I wouldn't have begun this ANI discussion if it was just my single image that was erroneously nominated, but it looked to me that there were several. If a topic ban is the only way to get through to him, then let it be so.--JOJ 01:13, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Maybe that will work. --Nouniquenames (talk) 02:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support It's proof that he's missing the point when he essentially says, no one disputes that the image is public domain, but I am nominating it for deletion anyway. FurrySings (talk) 08:21, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support per my previous statements. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support per many above posted good points of this blanket deletion policy being disruptive to Misplaced Pages as a whole. Sf46 (talk) 13:14, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Bulwersator's current approach and attitude is not helpful to the project. De728631 (talk) 13:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support - When a large fraction of files-for-deletion nominations made by an editor wind up as 'move to Commons', that says something, but he isn't listening - and is continuing his campaign over there. Putting a stop to the disruption here is a start. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Primarily due to IDHT behaviour. This blanket program of deletion requests is destructive and is a waste of the community's time. Resolute 14:47, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support as the user is doing sloppy work. Here's an example. Obviously a radio station logo will be copyright whether it's publicly owned or not, but casual editors will not know copyright law and all the byzantine wiki rules and templates in that regard. If Bulserwator proposes to help with images, this knowledge should be de rigueur, and he should be prepared to help by adding the required templates on obvious cases and/or by teaching more casual users how to do it themselves. None of the work I completed on this file and article yesterday had to be done by an admin; he could have done it himself. The uploader commented on his own talk page and received no response, so he removed the deletion discussion tag from the file on the 7th. Bulwersator must not have been watching these pages, or he would have known that. He therefore missed an opportunity to communicate with the user via something other than a template. -- Dianna (talk) 22:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support: Putting the hack-n-slash antics of Betacommand out of bounds was one of the better decisions the community ever made. I see no reason why they should be tolerated by anyone else. Neither has Bulwersator proferred evidence that he is a licensed attorney practiced in copyright law, a Byzantine tangle of conflicting rules which occupies the rapt attention of many a specialized lawyer, so the degree to we ought to kowtow to his impressions is - and ought to be - limited. Ravenswing 04:46, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support, with regrets. How are us evil deletionists going to take over the project if we have to keep banning 'em? Seriously, it does not seem from the discussion that he understands either the policies or the process, and it does not seem as if he wants to learn. Unfortunately, to protect the project as a whole, I see no other option than a topic ban. GregJackP Boomer! 05:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support - Unfortunately, Bulwersator's approach and attitude is unhelpful to the project and is a net negative. We should help, inquire, discuss and try to fix, rather than this mass deletion of other people's hard work. Basically, Bulwersator refuses to get the point. With that said, enough is enough and since Bulwersator's program of deletion request is destructive actions, it is a waste of the community's time. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Given it's almost 48 hours and unanimous, looks like it's time for a closure here? (If this was an xFD I'd say it's time to put up blizzard warnings.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Seems like a unanimous approval rating for the topic ban, you are right. Should we wait for an uninvolved admin, or is this one of those obvious decisions that basically nobody will challenge, even if closed by an involved admin.--JOJ 23:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
    • The problem with non-admin closes of topic bans is that admins will have to enforce it, so it's better if an admin closes it, showing that at least one uninvolved admin agreed with it. "Better" but not absolutely necessary. I'd say give it another 24 hours or so, and if no admin has closed it, any uninvolved editor can do a NAC and log the ban. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:51, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support - He has been rude in how he goes about this, and things would be resolved much better by talking to contributors instead of just leaving the generic message when he tags things for deletion. His attitude seems like he doesn't think he's done anything wrong, and he seems unwilling to change. Inks.LWC (talk) 05:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

IP-hopping edit warrior

First, this happened (a change from "The Beatles" to "the Beatles"), then it got reverted. It went back and forth a few times, then the anonymous editor proceeded to change his IP address once, then again, making the same edits to dozens of articles. Up until this point all the addresses stayed stayed within the 69.5.x range, but then 74.115.33.163 showed up with this edit to the Who.

Is anyone else seeing a common thread here? My money is on this guy, but I'm not sure that helps. Evanh2008 01:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC) Evan we need to talk you should open up your page bro. 74.115.33.163 (talk) 02:21, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry; not interested. I know I'm extremely attractive to you, but it just wouldn't work out. Evanh2008 02:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

No really we could set you straight about many things to do with Misplaced Pages but we understand

have you ever been to st louis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.115.33.163 (talk) 02:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Dont you have anything better to do? Whats so important about tees anyways? 74.115.33.163 (talk) 01:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Since your primary focus seems to be changing uppercase T's to lowercase t's (and vice-versa), you should ask yourself that second question. This IP hopping editor needs to be stopped from the campaign they are on, as they are just flying through Beatles articles. Doc talk 02:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Is it now vandalism to follow the MOS precriptions? How are our edits any more or less vandalism then the reverts themselves? Take a look at how many editors have been warring, it takes two, or three or four or five to tango yo yo. 74.115.33.163 (talk) 02:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Please use the first person singular, not plural, for accuracy's sake. Thank you. Evanh2008 02:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

how dare you tell us what we are we demand an apology now! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.115.33.163 (talk) 02:30, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

If you think that "The/the Beatles" dispute is a new thing, or that the way you are running around to every article you can find to make your changes is the correct way to "settle" the issue, you are mistaken on both counts. Doc talk 02:22, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Not the point Doc it matters little to us if it is new or old. Why not just let it go yo yo joe joe? We have the mighty MOS on our side so why should we stop? 74.115.33.163 (talk) 02:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that no one changes "The Beatles" to "the Beatles" or vice versa until Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles has been resolved. Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 02:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

thanks for the suggestion batty brains ditty danes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.115.33.163 (talk) 02:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Any admins watching this thread? Just checking... Doc talk 02:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

It is IP 99. I can practically hear the lustful infatuation as he types. Block, revert, and be done with it. Evanh2008 02:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I've blocked it for 31 hours. I've not looked into the rest of it or whether it's a sock or whatever. Secretlondon (talk) 02:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

199.30.241.228 (talk · contribs), also from St. Louis, is now at it. Doc talk 02:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

what the matter with our actions are they unacceptable to you? what is wrong with our edits? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.30.241.228 (talk) 02:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC) who is more silly us or you? does it take less time to move from "t" to "T"? you will be assimilated, resistance is fucking futile what are you gonna do shut down 1000s of IPs just for big tees? hahahaha we could just drive around a city picking up WiFi IPs miller jones for me stones fans

Why is IP not blocked? Seriously? Doc talk 02:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

F'n whack a mole Huh?--intelati/talk 03:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC) Thank youintelati/talk 03:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The problem is there are 7,000,000,000 moles. *sigh* Kerfuffler (talk) 03:07, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

This now too. Certainly something can be done about this? In the UK I believe this falls under the Malicious Communications Act 1988; I've been told that in the US at least a few of the comments he has made would be considered communicating a threat, since he has in fact made thinly veiled threats on my life. As far as Canadian legislation is concerned, I'm not quite sure but I'll look into it. Evanh2008 03:11, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

we never threatened you dear evan whatever are you talking about? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.86.3.26 (talk) 03:14, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The worst of it was all revdel'd, but "I'm coming to get you!" was one of the tamer ones. By the way, it turns out that section 264 of the federal Criminal Code is the relevant portion of Canadian law, in case anyone was still wondering about that. Evanh2008 03:27, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Possibly worth noting that these are all in rackco.com address blocks. Kerfuffler (talk) 03:23, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Add 208.86.3.27 to the list. Kerfuffler (talk) 03:37, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

64.59.94.18 Evanh2008 03:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

64.59.80.114 G'night! :) Evanh2008 03:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

PS - Just pay attention to User talk:Hot Stop‎. He's defecating all over that page. Evanh2008 03:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

64.59.82.146. Problem is that there are about >10000 IPs just in the ranges he's used so far. This could be a real pain. Kerfuffler (talk) 03:54, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

It's been a real pain for me for the past 2-3 months, but it looks like he wants to spread the love around. Regarding the IP ranges, give him time and he'll go through all of them. We won't even have to range block. End sarcasm. Evanh2008 04:27, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

WP:BRI Repeat.intelati/talk 04:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

But how many times do we repeat? 'cause I'm pretty sure we crossed the century mark around the beginning of August. Is there really no precedent for a range block in a case like this? This is quite literally the worst troll I have ever seen. Evanh2008 04:37, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

--intelati/talk 04:39, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

A bunch of this latest round (64.59.*) is a commercial proxy service for anonymizing network traffic. Can we just ban the whole damn thing? Kerfuffler (talk) 04:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I will dispense hugs, kisses, cookies, pizza, and barnstars to whoever does. This is taking up most of my time on the site and I'm damn sick of it. Evanh2008 04:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I've requested a block on the known PP ranges. We'll see. The Rackco stuff is more problematic. Kerfuffler (talk) 05:07, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

FYI, that set has now been blocked. —Kerfuffler 05:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• See the the "Paranoid" section above too. I'd appreciate it if all pages in my userspace were protected (submitted to RFPP already). Hot Stop (Edits) 03:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

FYI, these IPs probably relate to CaptainHill (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I user I reverted several times yesterday before all the fun started. Hot Stop (Edits) 04:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Hot Stop, please stop editing. You are attracting people here who are disrupting Misplaced Pages because of you. --MuZemike 05:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

No. Hot Stop (Edits) 05:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

If not, then we will have to block you. --MuZemike 05:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

What did he do? Or is that sarcasm? Evanh2008 05:40, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Causing disruption to Misplaced Pages via causing coordinated attacks to multiple articles. --MuZemike 05:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I heard that the first time, but what did he actually do? Do you have diffs? Evanh2008 05:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Yeepsi. They're coming too fast for me to tag them all. Evanh2008 05:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Stuff like that. --MuZemike 05:48, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Asking for help in dealing with trolls? What the hell are you talking about? Maybe I should just CSD this page, then? Evanh2008 05:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Hot Stop, as far as I am aware, you have not violated any Misplaced Pages policies, and thus are not at risk of being blocked. That others are attacking you is by no means a reason to block you. MuZemike, your comments are highly inappropriate. That is NOT a reason to block any user, and you are fully aware of that. Hersfold 05:51, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Then good luck with the imminent war. --MuZemike 05:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see -- you're a moron. Thanks for wasting everyone's time. For the record, this war has been going on for three months but I seem to be one of four people that has noticed. If there are any admins reading this, Yeepsi's page is getting ravaged at the moment, but why deal with that when we could just crucify Hot Stop instead? Evanh2008 05:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

For the record, I am not intending, and will not intend, to wheel war with any other administrator. I am just very frustrated with our inability to do anything, and I feel that the only solution is to stop the source, which I am afraid is those who are innocent in this. --MuZemike 06:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect. I've been dealing with this guy for months and I can tell you that attention does not motivate him, nor does inattention dissuade him. He is malicious, relentless, mentally unstable, and in my mind the best argument there has ever been for ending anonymous contributions on this site. If you want to stop him, the only way is to revert and go to AIV. Hot Stop has absolutely nothing to do with his psychosis. Evanh2008 06:09, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

How is HopStop causing any of this?  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  05:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Threatening a WP:AGF user with a ban because they annoy YOU is beyond the pale, withdraw the threat now - otherwise this needs to go higher and get your admin rights reviewed. It's outrageous behaviour. GimliDotNet 06:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

103-something, if anyone cares. Evanh2008 06:24, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Fine, I won't do anything here. However, if you come up with any other idea to prevent him from editing while still allowing any and all anonymous editing to occur, let me know. I say that knowing that the WMF will not allow any ban of anonymous editing or anything past what there currently is for article creation. Besides, we have newcomers to think about. --MuZemike 06:30, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Stopping anonymous editing isn't the only option. Semi-protection of these articles (not talk pages), would work for starters. Let people vent, but stopping them from disrupting the articles might force them to wait for the decision about all this capital T and small t business, whatever it is about. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone know who started this and who might be the root sockmaster, registered or IP? Right now many are being listed here: Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of 99.251.114.120, but I fear we're getting different socks blended into this mix. Of course we may just have a change of focus, since this IP does have a fascination for minor language details, and changing tactics by attacking the Beatles articles would fit his mindset. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Has any one noticed who has been conspicuously absent since this started Friday night??? Radiopathy •talk• 15:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Give MuZemike a break. If HopStop's account was somehow related to this crapola going on, MuzeMike would be justified in issuing a block to alleviate any possible damage to the encyclopedia. This wouldn't necessarily equate to a black mark against HopStop the editor. If a leg has gangrene, the surgeon has to pull out the saw. In this case maybe a shot would do instead of the saw, but Gimli and Hersfold, your harsh condemnation wasn't needed.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  07:23, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Harsh condemnation? Hardly. It's not an admins job to swing the big hammer at any user that happens to come along and get caught up in something. There is no evidence of hopstops account being compromised. GimliDotNet 07:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

That is not an appropriate analogy at all. HotStop has done no wrong, and there is absolutely nothing in the blocking policy that would support such an action. This is an escalation of a series of questionable actions made by MuZemike in regards to long-term vandals, and one that is entirely unbecoming of an administrator. Hersfold 07:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Got another one - 41.77.137.96 (talk · contribs · email) Yeknom Dnalsli (expound your voicebox here) 07:37, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

38.78.193.183 (talk · contribs), confirmed proxy. Doc talk 08:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

It seems our friend has started again. yeepsi (Time for a chat?) 10:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Blocking IP accounts

It'd be nice to have some guidance on blocking the IP accounts. I just blocked two. I somewhat arbitrarily blocked each for 3 months. The reports at AIV keep coming in, sometimes with just one contribution, although it's fairly clear that the style is the same as the others. Are we supposed to just pick them off one by one? Is 3 months reasonable? Shorter? Longer? We don't have to be completely consistent, but some unity would be helpful.--Bbb23 (talk) 08:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

His original address (99.251 something) got a year. That seems reasonable to me. Evanh2008 08:03, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

User:Materialscientist appears to be doing it for six months. They are also using {{blockedproxy}} as the reason. I was using socking as the basis. Any thoughts on that one? You're understandably biased, Evan. :-) On the other side of the spectrum, User: CharlieEchoTango is blocking for 12 hours.--Bbb23 (talk) 08:11, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I would say use your discretion. If those I.P. addresses are open proxies, then blocking them for a few months is fine. Personally, when dealing with an address hopping vandal/troublemaker, I tend to block single addresses for just a few hours/days, as the vandal will just switch IP addresses, and is unlikely to try using the same one again (making a longer block useless). If the same vandal keeps turning up on the same address after blocks have expired, then you can start using longer ones and be confident that they are actually effective. - Kingpin (talk) 08:16, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I have a stupid question. How am I supposed to know that an IP is using an open proxy?--Bbb23 (talk) 08:24, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject on open proxies/Guide to checking open proxies looks like quite a good guide, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. We also have an extension and a bot which keep the common proxies (Tor) blocked. - Kingpin (talk) 08:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the link - looks complicated. Returning to the present problem, it sounds to me like you believe these IPs are not using open proxies and should be blocked initially for short periods of time. Do I have that right?--Bbb23 (talk) 08:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Just so you know, there is a team at this noticeboard that has experts at checking for proxies, feel free to use them as you need. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 17:12, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

There were something like three or four blocks (check the log for a specific number) against his original address, and he came back after each one. Just be aware of that. In general, a few hours does it, but I tend to think open proxies are a standing hazard, anyway. Evanh2008 08:20, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Several of the ones I looked at more recently (81.218.236.182, 188.116.36.92, 91.228.2.67, 69.5.89.104, 41.77.137.96) have open PPTP ports, which indicates they are almost certainly VPN hosts. Kerfuffler (talk) 08:52, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The 47 one is definitely an open proxy. Geolocation tells me the IP is from Egypt. Unless this person can teleport from St. Louis to Egypt :P Yeknom Dnalsli (expound your voicebox here) 08:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Friendstotheend (talk · contribs) Evanh2008 08:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Heh, I think I'll let other admins deal with this (there seem to be plenty anyway). Besides, it's 2:00 a.m., and I should be in bed, not blocking IPs.--Bbb23 (talk) 09:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

No other IP's for 30 minutes now. Looks like we can give it the all clear (for now - I'd expect more coming our way sooner or later). Yeknom Dnalsli (expound your voicebox here) 09:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The problem is this guy is obviously using commercial proxy free trials and going through open proxy lists. Blocking them for 3, 12, or 31 hours (as some did) doesn't really help here; it needs to be long enough that the list gets exhausted. Since I have no love for proxies, I suggest a year.Kerfuffler (talk) 19:30, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. These short blocks accomplish very little. If some good editor gets blocked out, they can get back in. The risk is very small. Use much longer blocks. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Apology

I would like to apologize to Hot Stop for my comments made to him yesterday on two separate threads. I also extend that apology to all others currently involved in this struggle. As Hersfold said, it was highly inappropriate and unbecoming of an administrator to threaten innocent editors in the fashion that I have done. As for myself, I'm seriously beginning to wonder if I have burned out completely. --MuZemike 13:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Good luck, whatever you decide. Mephistophelian (talk) 13:37, 9 September 2012 (UTC).

• Recognizing and correcting a mistake in a forum that is just as public as the mistake itself is a sign of good character. It also proves that it was a mistake, not something you think is acceptable. We all make mistakes. I try to live by the same code, so I respect how difficult it is to step up and take the blame. Maybe a change of pace and venue would be helpful. I always say that an admin staying in heated and difficult areas too long is unhealthy, as you can easily get a jaded point of view of editors in general. Maybe some teahouse or help desk time, plus a lower work load for a month or two, de-stress, help others, don't even use the tools, and remember or reinvent why you came here to start with. I have tremendous respect for you Muzemike, and would rather see you take a break from the heated areas than to leave altogether. We all need a change of pace and surroundings from time to time, to keep us from burning out. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:58, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• What he said.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Hey MuZemike, you've been a tremendous long term asset to the project, and constantly dealing with troublemakers really can take it out of you - and that apology for making a mistake was pretty cool. I take Wikibreaks from time to time, and am heading on one shortly, and I'm also thinking of having a non-admin spell for a while and only doing content work, just so I don't lose touch - might one of those help you at all? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Take a break if you need it old chap, you deserve it. You've worked so hard for so long to stem the tide of socks, remember you're not glued to SPI and CU, or even Misplaced Pages and the computer. Do something else for a bit, get your mojo back. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Forgive my harsh words this morning, take a couple of days off to refresh yourself before deciding to do anything drastic. This place needs decent people, and you are one. GimliDotNet 15:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Your apology is very much accepted! You're good. Too bad we have to fight vandals, but as long as we allow IP editing the way we do now (there are other ways to allow them, without so many problems), we'll keep wasting huge amounts of donor money, time, bytes, server space, and editor burnout. It all lessens the credibility of Misplaced Pages. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• This is all so ridiculous, and I wish we would do something about the root cause. No one - admins, ArbCom, editors - has ever yet provided me (in my seven years here, yes, I started as an IP for a few edits) with a good reason why we should allow IP editing the way we do. It's not necessary to allow IPs to edit articles directly, or at least for very long. The collateral damage far outweighs the good that some IP editors do. They should be required to register after a short trial period. This would still allow everyone to edit. It wouldn't change that at all. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• It seems to me that some kind of probationary period for a “new” IP address would make it much harder to IP-hop and would deter people like this. I think there are ways it could be completely automatic, even. But this probably isn't the right place for that discussion. Kerfuffler (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• I haven't been able to relocate it, but I seem to recall awhile back that there was a petition sent to WMF to require Sign In To Edit, and it indicated that there was a strong and clear consensus for that. WMF's reaction: "lolno". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• I agree that this isn't the best place, but it's a relevant place, considering the circumstances. These discussions about IP editing often happen so far removed from the actual consequences that innane arguments are used to protect IP editing, as if it somehow would prevent people from editing. It wouldn't at all.

• A probationary period is exactly what's needed, and it should be automatic. After maybe 500(?) edits, then they must register. By then they'd know if they really want to get involved more seriously. Make them save their edits at least twice before those edits are accepted, IOW they meet a hoop with a request to register, and then have to jump through a similar hoop again, before their edits are finally accepted. The details can be worked out. At the same time, all featured content, policy pages, and controversial articles should enjoy permanent semi-protection. Semi-protection is the best way to block IP vandals, and by far, most vandals are IPs. -- Brangifer (talk) 21:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, WMF will never agree to something like this (they rejected a proposal to restrict page creation to autoconfirmed users, even though it had community consensus). --Rschen7754 03:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• I agree with the others; just take a deep breath and a break if you need to to recharge the batteries, you're one of the good guys here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• That wouldn't deter this guy. I'm thinking something makes the IP hopping take a substantial amount of time. As an example (not saying this is right), “You must have edited your sandbox at least 15 minutes ago, and since the last time this IP was blocked.” Kerfuffler (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• When you've been working in contentious areas for months/years on end, you need to take a break every once in a while. Highways used to be a contentious area, and two arbitration cases and several death threats later, I was quite burned out, and it reflected in my interactions with editors. It took me two months of stepping away entirely to refocus. Plus, everyone picks up the slack, so when you get back, there's less that you have to do! :) --Rschen7754 07:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Highways? Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Believe it or not. Drama llamas breed in some strange places. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• A good time for me to sing my song. We need (a) email-confirmed real name registration; (b) sign-in-to-edit; (c) one account per person. Ya can't really block any other way and we all waste far too much energy fighting IP vandalism. Carrite (talk) 00:17, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

User:Widescreen

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Widescreen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Immediately after being banned for edit waring, Widescreen has used POV templates in bad faith against the consensus reached in dispute resolution and without cooperating.

• diff
• diff

• diff
• diff

• diff (his explanation for it)

CartoonDiablo (talk) 01:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

What can I say now. Yes, I reverted the NPOV-Warnig. Because it's necessary. CD broke up the discussion. In fact nothing was answerd, because CD got no idea of what he's writing about. Sry to say that so. See my objections above. Futher is the picture (what a idea) of one table taken by one single study of course POV. At least in german Misplaced Pages. --WSC 01:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

CartoonDiablo has been remarkably patient with you on this matter. I'm StillStanding (24/7) (talk) 01:51, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

CD is a expert in psychotherpy research? I wrote 3 featured articles in psychology in german Misplaced Pages. I think I got more patientce with him... --WSC 01:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

If the english admins doesn't allow me to remove POV and obviously wrong contents. You couldn't prohibit to add a POV-Warnig at least. --WSC 01:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't agree with Still Standing more, adding the simple template 4 times is much more patience and restraint than, in all honesty, I'd have shown. It doesn't really matter who's an expert on what, because we require independent reliable sources and don't allow original research. Go Phightins! (talk) 02:23, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! And CD is not able to transform the informations of a study into a enzyclopedical text. --WSC 02:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Dear Admins! My plan is to revert the POV-Button into the Article. It would be lovley if you could judge beforehand if you plan to block me for the following editwar and if you be willing to support the POV and "high-quality-Duo" CD and stillstanding? Or if you remeber the aims of this little projekt, to issue a enzyclopedia with sourced informations? Thank you in anticipation! --WSC 11:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not an expert in psychology, but somewhat an expert at edit warring, I suggest using the talk page first and hammering out changes. While I'm a big fan of WP:BRD and boldness in general, it looks like we need to focus on the D portion, discussion. Since you just came off a block for edit warring, I strongly suggest proceeding with caution. This isn't an endorsement of anyone's ideas or edits, just a general note that anyone coming off a block is under higher scrutiny for the same behavior. Our goal is accuracy, not speed, so going a little slower for now is more likely to cause you troubles. At this stage, this isn't an ANI issue really, particularly since you haven't used the talk page at the article since the DRN closed. I suggest closing this thread and taking it back there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:16, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Dear Dennis Brown, I've used the talk page. But CD and Stillstanding ignore my arguments. Thats a naive but efficient tactic. I know this kind of proceed really good. I'm active in WP since 8,5 years. In fact, the decision was made by one admin, which has blocked me. CD and stillstand are not interrested in true contents. This WW-Proceed by add a piture of the table reveals this taktic figurative. I dont't know the proceed in en:wp, but what I saw at the Discussion on DRN shocked me. This was superficial and measly. I'm sorry to say that so. But the proceed in en:wp got nothing to do with careful consideration. This preferred users like CD and stillstanding, who got no idea of what they writing about. --WSC 12:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh, one other thing, you have nice bureaucratic rules here, like 3RR and so one. But you have no rule to decide which exposition is right and which is POV. But this bureaucratic proceed maks it easyer for users like CD and StSing to push there minor knowledge into articles. --WSC 13:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Again, I don't know enough to have an opinion on the content, and that is a matter for DRN anyway. As for bureaucracy, I'm not a fan of it, which is why I haunt the halls of ANI regularly and try to just inject a little common sense, and almost never block for a simple 4th revert. I have no control over other admins. I can't force the other editors to accept your edits or your ideas. Yes, we use the consensus model. Not saying this is the case, but if a bunch of Randys show up in an article and out !vote you in consensus, then the solution is DRN for starters, the MedCab, etc. What I'm saying is that you have to use the process instead of blind reverting. Yes, I know it is slow, but the goal is building an accurate encyclopedia, not a fast one. And I don't want to see you go down the "well, he was just blocked for edit warring and it looks like he is again, lets block him" admin road, whereby we lose you as a valuable contributor after a few blocks. The system isn't perfect, I know. By the very nature of what we are and how we do it, there isn't a choice but to use the (yes, bureaucratic) process. Again, I don't see any talk page since the DRN, which is where it should be instead of at ANI and I don't see any reason to take admin action for anyone here. We do NOT decide content issues at ANI, thank god, as that would be a nightmare of Randys if ever there was. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Dear Dennis, I like your attitude. But there is always anyhow how block after a 4th revert.

And I try to use the DRN for discussion. But I hadn't enough time that day to give futher explanations. Nobody there was interested in futher expanations because it was closed by anyhow, bevor I could give another statemnet. This is no consens this is insolence and extreme superficial. So I can't take such instances seriously. Thats a waste of time. They don't want a consense, they want to close a case quickley and go to the next one. I'm against consensuses. I prefer sourced and high quality contents in articles. You can't find a consensus always. But, there is a posibility: You can always block one of the opponents, so there is no longer a need for a consens. I hope you see, where the problem is with such a proceed! To add a picutre of this damn table was a POV move at it's best. --WSC 20:38, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

In general it's not helpful to edit war over the POV tag. To get a wider range of editors to opine on the subject in this case, try contacting WP:MED or WP:PSYCH. There is also a guideline on the subject of evaluating sources for things like effectiveness of treatment. Some of the editors who are active on its talk page would also be a good choice for a third opinion. Tijfo098 (talk) 15:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Editwars are never helpfull. But it's in your own interest, to have a POV-Button, at POV contents, at least. To revert the POV-button is so ignorant, I can't find words for that. I'wont accept that and I will not accept that. --WSC 20:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The discussion has been moved to edit waring. CartoonDiablo (talk) 23:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

West Hartlepool War Memorial

One dynamic IP user is getting increasing annoyed that his version of West Hartlepool War Memorial has been changed to one more in keeping with wikipedia policies. His recent edit includes

How is all this going to end? I am afraid Sir that I now have to remind you once again of your possible personal liability, (together with Misplaced Pages itself of course if they do nothing to correct these matters and it can be shown that what is in question is a deliberat refusal to do other than support the present Hartlepool Borough Council notwithstanding that they were aware of the actual facts as now detailed by myself) under Section 7 of the Perjury Act 1911, namely that "every person who aids, abets, counsels, procures or suborns another person to commit an offence against this Act shall be liable to be proceeded against, indicted, tried and published as if he were a principal offender", etc., etc. (the immediate section so far as the local authority itself is concerned being the previous section, Section 5, in this Act).

this sounds a bit like a legal threat to me.--Salix (talk): 08:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Me too. If nothing else, it's attempting to chill discussion in order to get their preferred version dangerouspanda 10:40, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Does anyone know what his actual point is? I got lost after only two incredibly dense paragraphs. Is he just trying to say "it should be called "Victory Square""? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:54, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Monkey hangers apparently have no idea what "perjury" is. Paul B (talk) 10:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

So maybe we can deduce that Quakers are the legal experts here. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:12, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Can someone semi-protect the talkpage as the ip is continuing to post these vague rants with allegations that anyone who disagrees with him is (possibly including West Hartlepool Council) may be liable under the Perjury Act 1911. And someone may want to revdel the ips alledged email adress.Nigel Ish (talk) 11:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• I've blocked the last-used UP for making legal threats - if he skips IP, maybe someone can investigate the possibility of a rangeblock? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:22, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like it's part of a dynamic TalkTalk range, so a rangeblock doesn't appear plausible. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The editor seems to have been in the local library looking up reports of debates. Unfortunately his own version was interminable and unreadable. He clearly has sources reporting on debates about the design of the menorial and its location. If he could provide the proper detailks of the sources they could be incorporated. The difficulty is that he does not seem to respond well, even though he clearly wants to communicate. Paul B (talk) 12:31, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Blocked another IP for repeating the same statement and saying he will only withdraw it if we allow his edits, although his writing style is nearly incomprehensible it is difficult to see what his actual problem is. MilborneOne (talk) 12:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• I've collapsed the legal threats on the talk page, and have left him a warning there - a temporary protection of the talk page might indeed be worthwhile if he continues -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Here's a bit of background I found while researching the article that may be illuminating Peter Judge / Moving the statue. I think he's very passionate, has done a lot of research, and wants all his research included in the article. I and others have suggested he find another venue / blog / webpage to post all his information. I think someone else nailed it - it's really an original research issue and I don't think he understands that we cannot post original research.--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, to quote Norman Moorsom of that Evening Gazette article: "In the meantime, Mr Judge, "of Hartlepool", I would politely suggest that you should go away and leave us alone." Martinevans123 (talk) 16:43, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• He's still carrying on about Misplaced Pages editors being liable under the Perjury Act of 1911 - though really not making much sense about it. As he won't drop the legal thing, I've blocked his latest IP and have semi-protected the article and its talk page. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:37, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
• He is now repeating the legal stuff on my talk page, I am afraid he just doesnt get it. MilborneOne (talk) 16:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I've blocked that IP too. If he posts again, I suggest you just revert and ignore, and deny him the outlet for his nonsense. If you want your talk page temporarily semi-protected, let me know. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(Ah, sorry, I see you can semi it yourself ;-) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:03, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• This user has been posting on the article and its discussion page in very long, very detailed, original research mostly stemming from odd bits of local legislation (I think). As far as I can tell, his recent claim seems to be that the local council is in some way guilty of perjury over having misrepresented some details surrounding the memorial in its publications; if we don't "set the record straight" then we're aiding and abetting that. This is patently implausible, so I wouldn't worry too much about the "legal threat" aspects.

I've tried to engage with this user in the past - see Talk:West_Hartlepool_War_Memorial/Archive_1 - but gave up a couple of years ago - it didn't seem very productive! Andrew Gray (talk) 17:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

There looks to be a definite WP:COMPETENCE issue with this user. Pity he's on an IP hopping connection, although I didn't think any still reset that quick that you'd get 3 or 4 different IPs in one day. GimliDotNet 17:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Yep, there are still some that give you a new IP every time you reset the modem. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Humm, yes. Personally I'd invoke WP:IAR, inform the IP that he is bocked from editing Misplaced Pages until Hartlepool F.C. beats Manchester United 10-nil in an F.A. Cup Final, refer him to Arkell v. Pressdram regarding the legal threats, and then place a notice on the edit page stating that any postings that may reasonably be inferred (by us) to be from him should be deleted on sight. We have enough problems with POV-pushers and world-setters-to-rights concerning issues that matter. This one doesn't, as far as we at Misplaced Pages (and evidently likewise the vast majority of the inhabitants of Hartlepool) are concerned. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Never argue law with someone violating WP:NLT. It is like wrestling with a pig. You only get dirty, and the pig actually enjoys it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 17:28, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

A person of this name seems to have a history dating back to 2005 of taking councils in the North East of England to court for moving memorial statues . Paul B (talk) 18:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh dear. The article will remain on my watchlist, and if he carries on when the protection expires I'll re-protect it for longer. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Good grief. I've added the page to my watchlist. De728631 (talk) 21:11, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Let's hope no-one tries to move it!! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

He appears to believe that it has been "moved" because the square around it - indeed Hartlepool as a whole - is not the same shape it once was. Kind of Zen-like memorial moving. Paul B (talk) 21:28, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I meant the article, haha. As we all know, Misplaced Pages is not the same shape it once was. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Community ban proposal

• Is this a community ban yet? (on either legal threats, or competence) That's going to make the cluebat easier to wield in the future. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:15, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

  That might not be a bad idea - it's clearly been an obsession of his for quite a few years, and I think it's unlikely he's going to drop it any time soon. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

  Support community ban, assuming we can ban somebody who doesn't have (as far as we know) any named accounts. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:39, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• We are going to ban a dynamic IP? Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Why not? We had an Arbcom case six years ago for a dynamic IP after it ignored the results of an RFCU on it. Nyttend (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Then I guess I will Support in principal, although not sure the actual benefits since he is de facto banned anyway. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support ban of Peter Judge the person - it's always the person who's banned, not the account or IP. He always signs his real name, and his posting style is unmistakeable, so we can be sure it's him. If the person is banned, we can revert/block/protect on sight, whatever IP he uses -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:49, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

  If a ban is enacted, he will need to be told. He's given us his email address enough times, so that should suffice - I'm happy to send a notification to him -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support a ban of the person, not the IP's. He's basically just using the page to promote his own ideas. --Salix (talk): 08:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support the proposed community ban of Peter Judge for his persistent threats, disruption, and lack of competence. Mephistophelian (talk) 09:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC).
• Support ban of the editor calling himself Peter Judge. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 16:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support Pass a Method talk 19:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Strong Support Peter Judge is now hassling me and threatening legal action on my talk page (twice deleted) and after I asked him to cease and desist. Totally unacceptable and irrational behaviour. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 20:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Peter Judge has yesterday been attempting to consult a solicitor on Just Answer (UK Law) here regarding his perception of Misplaced Pages's stance and actions. It would appear he has confused the solicitor, almost as much as he has confounded us, about what his actual question is. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 21:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support the ban of the editor calling himself Peter Judge. He has clearly exhausted the community's patience with his irrational behavior. Enough is enough. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:54, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Marcelo Samuel Berman

After adding comments to the autobiographical Marcelo Samuel Berman talk page, the first editor started personal accusations and made legal threats. If somebody could please take a look at it... Thank you Albertlberman (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Note - I guess this is about user MarceloBerman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I have also noticed this outing/threat edit by user Msberman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) — shouldn't that edit be made invisible? This author seems be using multiple usernames. - DVdm (talk) 06:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

as the target of the lie i would very much like it to be made invisible. Albertlberman (talk) 16:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I understand, but I can't do it as I don't have the necessary privilege to do so. Can someone with wp:oversight take care of this? - Thx. DVdm (talk) 18:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

User Kwamikagami reported - warring to remove citation-needed tags on assertions that Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are not lakes

The backstory is that user Kwamikagami is advocating that Lake Michigan and Lake Huron do not exist, that the correct name is Lake Michigan-Huron for a combined lake. (BTW they do behave as one lake only with respect to levels because they are connected at the straits of Mackinac, but IMHO sources overwhelmingly, probably at or near 100% name them as two lakes) ) Towards that end they (or the material that they are untagging etc.) are putting in material that is either unsourced or where the sourcing does not support the assertions made in the article which cited it. There are also some more convoluted constructions. For example, there is editor-written text within one reference which says that it supports the editor's assertions. Another example of a convolution is where an editor took an asterisk/footnote from a level data chart explaining why Michigan and Huron were combined in the chart out of context and placed it as a separate quote as if it was a statement about the lake's name status in general. In short, took it out of the context of explaining combination in the level chart to make it sound like it was a general statement on the status and naming of the lakes.

We've had some sporadic debates over this over months. There have been comments from others regarding this and I took it upon myself to finally do something about it. More recently I've done a lot of detailed work related to this at two articles: Lake Michigan–Huron and List of lakes by area. To avoid writing a book book with zillions of diffs I believe that this is an accurate summary:

At List of lakes by area I tagged both the name and data for "lake" Michigan-Huron for sourcing. I added Lake Michigan and Lake Huron as lakes and the data on them, with solid sourcing (US Government summary of Great Lakes Data). I deleted "lake" Michigan-Huron from the listing and renumbered the size ranking of the lakes accordingly. Kwamikagami reverted everything that I did in one edit, with just an overall statement "Every statement you have made about that article that I have checked has been false." This included removal of the sourced Lake Michigan and Lake Huron listing and data and re-insertion of the unsourced "lake" Michigan-Huron data, and removal of the "citation needed" tags on the latter.

At the Lake Michigan–Huron article I went through and tagged all of the explicit and implicit assertions of the "Michigan-Huron" naming for sourcing, and also tagged the data given for the combined lakes for sourcing. I also did more detailed edits and edit summaries which unraveled the more complex constructions such as the editor-written assertions within a reference. As a sidebar, I also reviewed the references; the traceable ones actually refuted the assertion rather than supporting it. That left one (untracable) one, a magazine. They gave only the name of the magazine, and the year that a statement was purportedly in the magazine and a cryptic code which the magazine does not use at their website for searching back issues etc. There was no title of the article. no author of the article, no page number, no indication of which month's issue of the magazine it purportedly was from in 2004. I tagged it asking for verification and a page number. I did all of this split into a series of about 9 edits, each with an edit summary. Kwamikagami revrted all of the work en masse in one edit with only the comment "we don't ref the lead, the page numbers are given, etc etc." (the "etc. etc." is their words, not mine).

So far I've only reported 2 people in my Wiki-life, this is #3. I tried avoiding it, with a suggestion at the article and on their talk page on how we could work together on the Lake Michigan–Huron and an indication that if they persisted on the policy-related areas I would be forced to report them. The core of their argument seems to be (in MY words) that their (mis)interpretation wp:brd (which is not a policy) overrides wp:ver (which IS a policy). While there is also an underlying content issue (Whether or not Lake Huron, Lake Michigan and Lake Huron-Michigan are the names for those lakes) lakes) this report is only about the policy related-issues which I have noted in my report. And I'm asking that a reading be given on the policy-related aspects. More eyes on the article would also be good, but I digress. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:57, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The very first version of that article was modestly written and truthful - that these two bodies of water are sometimes grouped together. It looks like we've now got some editors trying to be advocates for an obscure technical viewpoint in order to impose their viewpoint over common convention. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:54, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Any POV corrections are welcome. — kwami (talk) 22:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

You can start by abandoning the fringe claim that the two lakes are one lake. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

He accused me of removing tags at List of lakes, despite the fact that there were no tags. The tags in the main article were largely spurious: he repeatedly tagged the bolded words in the lead, despite the fact that I explained to him that we don't normally ref the lead. (The words in question are cited in the text.) He tagged a ref for verification because it needs a page number, when it already had a page number. He deleted a note with the summary that it wasn't a good reference, when it wasn't supposed to be a reference. He tagged another he claimed did not say what it clearly says. (The least he could do is explain his POV at Talk; it appears to me to be a case of OR.) Perhaps some of his other edits were legit, but when I got half-way through and every one turned out to be spurious, I decided going further was a waste of time and reverted him. Rather than correct the errors I pointed out, he started to edit war. This appears to be a case of trying to smear the article because he failed to get it deleted altogether. — kwami (talk) 22:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Someone remind me again, in a little less tl;dr manner, why this isn't a garden variety content dispute? People who disagree have different points of view on a matter. That is tautologically true, so noting that someone whom you disagree with has "POV editing" doesn't mean anything more than "Me and this other person are in a content dispute". The best way to handle this is to follow any of the things listed at WP:DR, before it becomes necessary to block someone. I see nothing here that isn't a simple content dispute colored by strong emotions on both sides. Meh. --Jayron32 23:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, aside from the edit-warring, there is no such thing as "Lake Michigan–Huron", so really the article should be deleted, and there are processes for doing that. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Someone's trying to claim that they're the same lake? Who do I need to lose respect for today? dangerouspanda 23:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes they are deleting "Lake Michigan" and "Lake Huron" and their statistics from the "list of lakes" article, and inserting an unsourced name and statistics for "lake" Michigsn-Huron. Can't wait to see how that plays out for Oceans, since they are more-than-joined. Start deleting the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans from listings and replace it with the Atlantic-Pacific-Indian-Artic-Etc. Ocean data. North8000 (talk) 23:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

So, they are doing so right now, as we are typing this discussion, they are sneaking out to put their own versions of the articles back? Is that correct? If that is what is happening right now, then perhaps we should fix that. If, however, they have stopped doing that, then we are in the discussion phase and no one should be blocked for discussing their viewpoint, so long as they aren't reverting for force a fait accompli. So what is it, are they still warring right this minute or have they stopped and started discussing their unpopular viewpoint with others? --Jayron32 23:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Nearly all the world's bodies of water are interconnected, so just drop all the names of bodies of water and replace them with one highly-useful designation: Panaqua. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, CharlieBugs. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:54, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

That article actually makes some sense, although it's likely redundant. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding deletion, it probably should get deleted, but my "Plan A" was to cooperatively evolve it to an article that discusses the ways (levels etc.) that behave like a single lake, which I put out as an olive branch. North8000 (talk) 23:47, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the right way to handle this would be to take out the approximately two useful sentences from that one article, put them in the appropriate place in Great Lakes, and then make this fictional "Huron-Michigan" a simple redirect. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:52, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

All the continents and even minor islands are also joined, if you dig down deep enough. This is a content dispute, but it does look like it has gotten to the point of being disruptive due to it touching many articles. I would love to hear Kwami's rationale for the whole "one lake" theory, including sourcing. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:48, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Either the Fringe noticeboard, or the "don't edit Misplaced Pages while on mind-altering substances of any type" noticeboard might be better :-) dangerouspanda 23:55, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

They're joined underwater, yes. But even considering only the conventional surface level continents, and ignoring artifices like canals, there are really only 4 continents: Australia, Antarctica, the Americas, and Europe-Asia-Africa. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:54, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

That's an argument to keep Huron–Michigan. — kwami (talk) 02:34, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Only to those who don't understand satire. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Responding to Kwamikagami:

• regarding "despite the fact that there were no tags", here are the tags. When you did a giant deletion of all of my work you nuked it to a version prior to the tags.
• regarding page number, if you would put in a page number and/or identify it as such, that would settle that tag. But there still would just be name of the magazine and the year so the other tag would apply.
• regarding "failed to get it deleted" I have NEVER tried to get either article deleted. In fact I would fight for the retention of one of them if someone AFD'd it. North8000 (talk) 00:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the content dispute notes, yes there is a content dispute underlying this the core of which is I am saying that "Lake Michigan" and "Lake Huron" exist. But I approached the editing as tagging the unsourced assertions otherwise, and my report here is on the policy-related matters, most of which are semi-warring to remove tags for sourcing. North8000 (talk) 00:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I looked at your tagging, and it hen way past the line into tag-bombing. I've looked at the sources provided, except for the magazine, and they support the hydrological claim. If you haven't already, you should revert any changes made to lake lists to remove Lake M & lake H and replace them with Lake M-H, since it is not generally considered to be a lake, per se. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:13, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I've done that now. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

(ec) I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here. None of the sources I can check support the claim that there is a lake called "Michigan-Huron". What they support, and what the article is now about, is that the two bodies of water can be considered as one hydrologically or hydraulically, and that combined body can be called "Lake Michogan-Huron". No lists of lakes should be changed, there's no general consensus in the world at large that these are the same body of water, it's simply that for one specific purpose one can think of them as one body. The article should stay, on the basis of that specific reason. I believe that I've removed any vestiges of a fringey POV that the to lakes are actually considered to be one except in that particular circumstance. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:10, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

You've already stated everything that needs to be said about it. So why a separate article? It should just go back into the Great Lakes article as an "oh-by-the-way" thing. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd have no problem with it being merged into the Great Lakes article as a section. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:29, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

BTW, here I'm just trying to resolve the policy related aspects. More feedback or eyes on the overall issues would be a nice adder. But I do not seek any sanctions etc. (I have to leave for a few hours.....) Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've boldly moved all the material from the Lake Michigan-Huron article into the already existing section in the Great Lakes article, tagged them both with the "copied" template, and converted the former into a redirect to the section of the latter. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:43, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Kudos. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:45, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that is best. Goes further than I did and is for the best. That renders what I brought on one of the articles a moot point; the other where the issues has been active is at List of lakes by area (Plus it is germane at one or two more "lake list" articles where I've done nothing yet. North8000 (talk) 01:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I restored Lake Michigan and Lake Huron in the "area" article, and broke up Michigan-Huron to its components in the "volume" list. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Kwamikagami reverted you on the Lake Michigan-Huron article. North8000 (talk) 01:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I reverted per BOLD because there was no discussion: the discussion is on the talk page of the article; I didn't even see this.

As for deleting the tags, you did that yourself! You're chiding me for your own actions?

@BaseballBugs: Huron–Michigan are one body of water the same way that the Ocean is one body of water. The sources are clear on that.

@Beyond My Ken: "no lists should be changed". Then please undo your changes. Lake Huron-Michigan has been on the list for years. — kwami (talk) 02:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The "for years" argument is irrelevant. The fact that this bogus item has been under the radar for a long time doesn't accrue any validity. In fact, the original article was modest and on the mark. It has evolved somehow from merely an obscure alternative term to an alleged "fact" which is unsupported by sources or common usage. In either case, there was no valid reason for it to be separate from the Great Lakes article. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Kwamikagami, do you propose to merge our articles on Europe and Asia? The sources are clear that they are one body of land. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Of course not. The claim that I'm saying that "Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are not lakes" (in the title of this section) is purposely obtuse. I'm not proposing that we merge those articles, merely that we keep the article on the combined body, just as we have articles on Eurasia alongside Europe and Asia, and the World Ocean alongside the Pacific and Atlantic—or for that matter, Hindi-Urdu alongside Hindi and Urdu, and any number of other cases where there is disagreement as to how to divide up continua into conventionalized units. Are the people opposed to this article willing to delete those articles as well? — kwami (talk) 02:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe that wasn't the best analogy. But either way, we don't call "Eurasia" a continent, which is the core issue at both lake articles. North8000 (talk) 02:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Of course we do. Read continent. — kwami (talk) 02:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

This is, in my opinion, disingenuous. While there is dispute as to exactly where the boundary between Europe and Asia is, and possibly on the difference between Hindi and Urdu (I'm not that familiar with south-central Asian languages), there is no dispute as to the boundary between the Atlantic and Pacific (dividing point in open water is a line running directly south from the southernmost point of Cape Horn to the edge of the Antarctic continent), and likewise, there's no dispute as to where the boundary between Lake Michigan and Lake Huron is--the line that represents the shortest distance between Michigan's Upper and Lower Peninsulas (which is, not so coincidentally, the exact alignment of the Mackinac Bridge) in the Straits of Mackinac. As people have pointed out earlier in the discussion, all the referenced sources support that they are *separate* lakes rather than a single lake, except for the single magazine article that does not have sufficient information (month, article title, page number... the year and a cryptic code that doesn't do anything in the magazine's website isn't enough) to be verifiable. Others have pointed out that the combined body of water is only referred to as a single entity in the hydrographic sense, where the two lakes act as one; in all other circumstances, they are referred to separately. I recommend you self-revert, Kwami, and do more discussion in the future. rdfox 76 (talk) 03:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Someone close this please now and/or take it to DRN. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Maybe only after someone puts Kwami on the Ross Ice Shelf for awhile, for having broken 3RR. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

When his post started I was at 1RR/24hr on both articles and Kwamikagami was at 2RR/24hr on both. Since the beginning of the report Kwamikagami moved up from 2RR to 4RR in 24h on the one article and from 2RR to 3RR on the other article. I stepped back and remained at 1RR in 24h on both. Rightly or wrongly so, the policy related issues in my original report got lost in the shuffle. I am not seeking sanctions, but I also don't want this to descend back into the mess of a situation that it was in when I reported. North8000 (talk) 11:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I am fairly certain this is not the first time Kwami has been schlepped here for edit-warring. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I gave up on the threads I had going with them there for now.....there isn't a real conversation going on, they are just firing volleys and ignoring the main points of each of my posts in the conversation. And now they have added insults e.g. "Your personal POV is clouding your ability to read the sources objectively".....most of my points included precise specific things from a careful reading of the sources, so that is uncalled for. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:48, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the content issue, I agree strongly with Beyond My Ken that the very minor double lake concept should not appear in any lists of lakes. A lake is a body of inland water; Lakes Huron and Michigan are obviously separate bodies joined by a narrow strait. The lakes are huge and so it the strait, but the relative sizes give us the popular mainstream viewpoint that there are two lakes. A ratio of many thousands to one in reliable sources tells us that the proper weight for the minor viewpoint is vanishingly small, and it should only be mentioned at the Great Lakes articles. Binksternet (talk) 02:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Also agree. And each claim of support by a source where the source is available turned out to be a mis-use of the source and where the source said the opposite. North8000 (talk) 02:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The clear consensus of all editors involved in discussing this article, between the discussion on the article's talk page and the one here, is that the separate article is not warranted. (Consensus does not have to be located in a single place.) For this reason, I have restored the redirect to Great lakes#Lake Michigan-Huron, and this should not be undone without the support of consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:43, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I have also removed the terribly WP:FRINGEy view that Michigan-Huron is "one lake" from Lake Huron, Lake Superior, Lake Michigan and Straits of Mackinac, although I left or added the information that the two lakes can be considered to be one body of water hydrologically. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Why is Kwami still a rollbacker?

It seems from the above that he edit wars regularly and he was also desysoped by ArbCom. The anti-thesis of a trustworthy user, I'd say. Tijfo098 (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Good to know -- I have had the very same experience with him @ the article on Croatian language. He is supported by another user there and they revert everything which isn't their POV.esse quam videri - to be rather than to seem (talk) 00:23, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Please provide diffs where Kwami has violated WP:Rollback. Absent violations, what harm is there in retaining the right? (other then lack of consistency with the rollback thread below) Monty₈₄₅ 00:25, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Why is Kwami not blocked yet?

Kwamikagami (talk · contribs)

He already violated 3RR yesterday, with no admin response, and today he continues to edit war against consensus. This needs to stop. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:16, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

No, Bugs, you said "there is no consensus" when you deleted the article. The article has been there for five years (and not created by me). If you want to delete it, go through proper channels at RfD. "No consensus" means we leave the status quo for now. Meanwhile, we do have consensus wording for the lead to address the objections, proposed on the talk page and apart from a few quibbles apparently accepted by everyone.

(As for violating 3RR, does deleting a speedy tag on an article that is being debated count toward 3RR?) — kwami (talk) 00:22, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

You continue to support a fringe, non-notable viewpoint. The length of time it was under the radar is irrelevant. And you, as a former admin, should know the consequences of edit-warring. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:28, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

It clearly is not WP:FRINGE, it is only minority usage. Regardless, if you want to make a contested deletion—and despite North8000's allegation, I'm not the only one contesting it (Jason Quest characterized the deletion as "a hearty fuck you", and others have as well)—then take it through proper channels. — kwami (talk) 00:36, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The article was not deleted. Redirecting =/= deletion. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:44, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

And even as he makes his bogus arguments here, he continues to edit war. He's already been stripped of his adminship and been blocked several times for edit warring. I guess he wants to go leave wikipedia altogether, in a big splash in a non-existent lake. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:02, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Being the admin's incident board you can imagine that many admins are aware of the situation and if they feel blocking is necessary that's a decision one of them can make. You're not making this situation any better by antagonizing Kwami; it's just adding to the drama so please cut it out. If you feel so strongly that you're in a better position to judge whether someone should be blocked then perhaps you should consider an RFA. Sædon 01:09, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, he's antagonizing everyone else. He's at war with several editors. I expect the admins are asleep at the switch, and that Kwami the Swami is hoping to outlast everyone else. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs, I'm not going to disagree (or agree) with your position about the edit warring, but I personally find the moniker "Kwami the Swami" to be racist. I'm pretty sure you're just trying to be humorous, but it's not coming across that way. Would you please strike the "the Swami" part of your comments above? Thanks. Risker (talk) 05:03, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how it's racist at all; Chris Berman would certainly disagree. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:51, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

And as regards RFA, you don't have enough money to get me to run again. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The discussion of the core topic is already at two articles so we shouldn't start a third here. But IMO it is a case of Kwamikagami vs. reality/everybody/overwhelming sources. North8000 (talk) 02:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

User: Fair Treatment blanking sections of law firm articles

Fair Treatment (talk · contribs · count) appears to be a single use account. All of the user's edits involve the removal of large amounts of information from a number of articles on major U.S. law firms. The account may be a public relations firm or something. I'm posting this here because I really don't know where else to go. I would like to revert all the user's edits, but I am afraid that might be too harsh a solution. --Eastlaw  ⁄ _contribs 00:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Update, I decided to roll back only those edits which deleted a lot of info and history. --Eastlaw  ⁄ _contribs 00:43, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Those blankings are too much and there seems to be some sort of agenda, although it's unclear exactly what it is. If there's specific information to remove fine, but that's just a slash and burn approach. And yes, most of those on the list are major international law firms. I think Eastlaw's perfectly within bounds rolling back most of those. Shadowjams (talk) 01:17, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Shadowjams about the approach. I reverted his edit adding to LeClairRyan because, though it could be true, it is unsourced and if it isn't true it would be really bad. I'll add a blurb to his talk that assumes good faith and reminds him to add reliable sources for edits. Go Phightins! (talk) 21:48, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

User:Bluerim is still refusing to discuss (4th report)

User:Bluerim is still refusing to discuss. I don't understand why he won't discuss. There's a trend I've noticed with this user. I'll make a report against him for the very issue of not discussing (this is the 4th report), he'll begin to discuss because he's essentially forced to, but after a little time has passed (maybe a week or two after the report is archived), he'll go right back to not discussing. It happened the first time, it happened the second time, and it's happened again. The second report was never answered by an admin and the third report was also not answered by an admin, however, there was a lengthy discussion involving myself, Bluerim, and another user (User:Bridies), and that other user noticed the issues with Bluerim.

The article of question that he's refusing to discuss is Kratos (God of War) (which was one of the two articles in the last report). In the majority of my edit summaries since September 2, I've mentioned to Bluerim about the discussion (Kratos revision history). He's reverted me and stated things such as "Didn't see any discussion re: Simpsons." which he essentially hid the big portion of this revert by stating something minor; he's stated "...what discussion?" despite the fact it was the one he started (which User:Niemti was more in agreeance with me as we had discussed the lead and other issues previously); he covered up his reversion again by stating "Correction"; he stated that he's "Not ignoring anything" despite the fact I've told him about the discussion multiple times; despite me mentioning it multiple times, he tells me to go to the discussion, and then did it again. I've also sought the opinion of a copy-editor on how a particular sentence in this article should be written and they gave me their opinion. I implemented that version because it is worded much better and clearer than what Bluerim wants to put, but despite that, Bluerim states That's one opinion" when it's actually two (mine and the copy-editors), and in his last two reverts, he hides this by telling me to go to the Talk page over the lead section. I pointed this out in one of my edit summaries to Bluerim but he ignored it: he's walking a fine line (and probably crossed it) of disruptive editing, particularly bullets 4 and 5 here under "A disruptive editor....".

This has been going on for far too long. I was hoping the last two reports would settle this, but obviously they haven't. Administrative help would be appreciated. --JDC808 ♫ 02:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

This needs to stop right now. It is obsessive and I am now concerned for this user's mental health. He argues the point on even small corrections and shows more than a little ownership. I've repeatedly asked for a justiification for a certain lead, and instead receive reverting with some rather preachy edit summaries. The fact that this editor has come here a fourth time is stunning. Not the correct forum. Again, a third party. Not going to comment here any further as it just fuels the debate.

Bluerim (talk) 12:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

You didn't seriously just comment about their mental health? dangerouspanda 12:29, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not seeing a great deal of discussion on the talk page about this disagreement (from both of you). — ThePowerofX 12:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Bluerim, after making this remark (We will require another opinion. diff), what outside help did you seek to resolve the dispute? — ThePowerofX 12:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, I can source someone if you wish. As for the mental health issue, it is not personal. I find this a real concern on Misplaced Pages. People become far too involved - and indeed obsessed - with editing. I found two other editors - one who looks to have edited on and off for 24 hours and another who admits to having issues and their posts are wild ramblings - in one hour. Hence my comment. Misplaced Pages can be a great thing, at times.Bluerim (talk) 12:55, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I strongly recommend you give up that train of thought quickly. Making personal comments about folks like that is a quick road to a block.--v/r - TP 14:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed (note edit summary). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Per the last incarnation of this: Bluerim has a continuing pattern of making personal attacks against the OP, which have now progressed to questioning of the OP's mental health. A block has to be in order if that isn't the last one. bridies (talk) 16:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Bluerim, you didn't find anyone to resolve the dispute, so I don't know how you could source someone. That mental health comment is a personal attack against me. You said you "repeatedly asked" for me to explain, but you only did it a couple of times, and in actuality, I've been asking you countless times to discuss. I left a post on that discussion and your only response was "We will require another opinion." but you didn't find anyone. There was another editor that posted (User:Niemti), who like I said earlier, was more in agreeance with me, and they actually reverted you. --JDC808 ♫ 22:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, my comment comes out of concern. Misplaced Pages is a fine thing, but people become too involved in the process. Your examples also shade the truth. That said, nose to the grindstone. If these things must be thrashed out on the Talk pages word by word to resolve the issues, so be it. List of God of War characters is a start. Bluerim (talk) 00:43, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The article in question is Kratos (God of War), not the List page (which I requested that RfC despite the fact you're borderline rejecting community input) . My examples show the truth, and you're now trying to cover it up by saying the List page is a start. It's your same argument from the last report. If it was a start last time, it should have carried into Kratos. And as I stated in the OP, you're essentially being forced to discuss because of these reports. That's one of the problems, it shouldn't take four reports to force you to discuss. --JDC808 ♫ 01:06, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I too take issue at Bluerim's numerous jabs at user's "mental health". It seems like a cheap way of avoiding the real issues (article/content disputes) while thinly veiling a personal attack. I haven't seen anything wrong with JDC's actions, but even if there were, it's not Bluerim's place to make commentary on it anyway. Sergecross73 msg me 02:22, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Not that it's any of my business, but I find the comments above unacceptable as a personal attack on another editor, and it is made worse by Bluerim's response to a NPA warning. See diff. He is essentially daring an admin to take action. GregJackP Boomer! 02:40, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I also take issue with Bluerim's jabs at a user's "mental health". I believe that this reflects an attitude that is incompatible with Misplaced Pages. I have seen nothing wrong with JRC's actions as well, but it's not Bluerim's place to make commentary on it anyway. Any type of personal attacks are not, should not, and will not be tolerated. Also, competence is required. As a collaborative encyclopedia, we users should comment on content. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:19, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

It wasn't a jab but rather an observation. Thank you for the excellent link on competence. I thought it was fascinating and it should be a must read for all editors. I don't believe it addresses all the areas of incompetence and only generalizes about solutions, but it is encouraging and I may try and offer some suggestions as to a framework. They may or may not be accepted but I believe it to be worthwhile as there's a bigger picture. Anyway, that said, I still feel the other editor is a tad too keen but will post more comments if I can find someone to moderate. There's a decent chap at one of the pages in question who seems willing to ask questions. Will start there.

Bluerim (talk) 06:19, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Threatening legal action

On my talk page a message is threatening legal action because I reverted an edit, identified as vandalism diff here where an IP editor removed content without providing a reason for his actions. He claims he removed it because it was defamatory. --Itemirus (talk) 05:55, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The material removed by the IP was a gross violation of WP:BLP (it made unsourced claims of illegality), and on that basis anyone could have (in fact should have) removed it. I suggest you familiarise yourself with policy before accusing others of vandalism. Meanwhile, rather than go through endless further drama, perhaps you should apologise to the IP editor - while we have a WP:NLT policy, it seems hardly worthwhile to invoke it here. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:10, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

That article could use some work. Note the embedded editorial comment, "SIN wasn't even record label SIGNED YET!" ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

1. After noticing the notability tag on SIN (band) from September 2010, I checked the references and determined that there was an obvious and substantial copyright violation that dated back to the earliest version of the article.
2. While the long-standing copyright infringement is remarkable and unfortunate, it doesn't mitigate Andy's concerns regarding the removal of defamatory biographical material.
3. Another worthwhile observation is that the existence of an edit summary is wholly inconsequential in relation to the validity of another editor's rationale for reverting any changes. Omitting the summary introduces an obvious difficulty, but the reversion should relate directly to the material altered, its neutrality, accuracy, references, structure, coherence, etc., rather than the explanation offered.
4. Following Andy, I'd also apologise. Don't lose heart, just ensure that you rectify the mistake. Mephistophelian (talk) 07:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC).

I presented my apologies to the anonymous editor. I am positive this issue will be resolved as it is clear I have reverted his edit with no intention to defamate. My mistake was just being too hasty in identifying it as vandalism, when I should have paid more attention to the contents removed. It is an article about a 2nd-tier band from the late 70s, so I was quite careless...--Itemirus (talk) 07:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Itemirus. Mephistophelian (talk) 08:06, 10 September 2012 (UTC).

I have advised the article creator, MDSanker (talk · contribs), that he should come here and comment on this matter. I noticed his second edit summary said, "Missed first paragraph". Presumably meaning he forgot to copy-and-paste it. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he didn't realize he was violating copyright rules. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 07:40, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

After glancing through MDSanker's contributions, there are various warnings relating to copyright violations from 2007, 2010, 2011, and 2012. Mephistophelian (talk) 08:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC).

Never blocked for it, though. I hate to come down hard on our brave military personnel (U.S. Navy Captain in this case), but copyright violations are on the short list of things that could potentially get wikipedia into legal trouble. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Not a Captain at all; not even a commissioned officer. US Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class if I am correct. You're confusing the bird. The Captain/Colonel bird does not have the chevrons under it.--v/r - TP 14:40, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Oops, you're right. E-5 Petty Officer Second Class I mis-read something. In any case, after he deleted the copyright complaint without comment, he asked me what ANI is. I am not impressed. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

In the brief encounter I had with MDSanker, I was immediately struck by his difficulties with the English language, evidenced in his edit summaries. I made him aware of my concern(kindly...sort of). Perhaps I was a little harsh, but I mention it because I haven't noticed him responding much after that. I bring it up because it wouldn't surprise me if he stays clear of this discussion. --RacerX Talk to me 22:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Old user, new username

PJHaseldine (talk · contribs) has returned after an absence as Patrick Haseldine (talk · contribs) (both are his real name). I believe his old account should be disabled if he's abandoned it, given his past history of creating socks. Please note that I'm not recommending any sanctions be applied for violating naming policy - happy to AGF at this time. Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• I've indef blocked him. It has been two years, and we can be open minded as to a return, but there is a degree of procedure that must be followed. I will leave it up to the community to decide if he should or shouldn't be coming back, my block was purely procedural, based on the fact that is primary account IS blocked for socking. Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/PJHaseldine/Archive I think he needs to explain a bit how he wants to move foward before any consideration should be given to the idea. Again, I will leave to others, I'm out the door for a while. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I didn't realise (or forgot) that his primary account is indef blocked already - I assumed he'd forgotten the password, given that the new account is under his real name and hence not hiding anything. Anyay, I'm not opposed in principle to his return - the primary issue that led to his last community ban and block is no more since the release and passing of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi. However I agree with the expectation of a statement of intention/behaviour, given his track record and early lapse to a previous pattern of personal attacks after I attempted to help address the points he raised about this biography. Socrates2008 (Talk) 13:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• The PJHaseldine account is still under the community sanction given at User:PJHaseldine/Community sanction:

A community sanction has been established at this discussion:

PJHaseldine (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is prohibited from editing articles relating to Pan Am Flight 103, broadly construed. This topic ban includes, but is not limited to, the following articles: ...

The same information is logged in WP:RESTRICT. In his unblock request at User talk:Patrick Haseldine, the editor states he wants to return to update his Misplaced Pages biography. Haseldine advances a theory that South Africa is related to the Lockerbie bombing. Most of the content of his biography at Patrick Haseldine is about his friction with the British government over South African issues. In my opinion, there is not much point to his return. He will not be able to edit his own article without adding self-serving information that is going to reignite the past turmoil. Voluntary restrictions on Haseldine in the past have not worked. EdJohnston (talk) 16:48, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

In fairness to him, his activity in updating his biography has consisted of him proposing changes on the talk page, which is right and proper for someone with a COI. I would not object to unblocking the latest account if he discloses all other accounts he has created and agrees to continue editing from that one account only. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest a vote at WP:AN if you want him unindef'ed. My objection is unilateral unblocking, so if the community thinks it is ok, then it is ok with me. Either than or via ArbCom, but WP:AN is a faster, simpler option. I would recuse myself from voting since I did the block. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 22:55, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

From the person who in his eyes has probably caused him the most "trouble" at Misplaced Pages, I propose that he be unblocked for a probationary period of 6 months subject to his existing community restriction being updated as follows:

• The previous community topic ban relating to Pan Am 103 related articles remains in place
• He restricts his activities exclusively to talk pages (no direct article edits)
• He uses talk pages exclusively for discussing article content improvements
• He does not use Misplaced Pages as a platform for any form of promotion, campaigning or activism
• He does not link from external sites to any edit he makes anywhere on Misplaced Pages, specifically, but not exclusively limited to Facebook, Twitter, any blog or campaigning site.
• He assumes good faith and refrains from any ad hominum attacks against other editors, particularly those previously involved in uncovering his previous sock accounts and activities.
• He uses a single account, and does not engage in any further sock behaviour
• Any transgression of the above will result in an immediate and permanent ban without further warning.

At the end of the 6 month period, if he's not already banned, he can request that the community review his restrictions to determine if it's appropriate for them to remain in place as is or be amended. If anyone would like to suggest any wording changes, please go ahead, otherwise let's put it to the vote.

Socrates2008 (Talk) 23:47, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Again, this isn't an incident, and should be discussed at WP:AN if you want him unblocked. It will require a community consensus there, not here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Syed Mustafa Siraj and User:Bhorbela

User:Bhorbela has uploaded Copyright text, Copyright images (under a different handle), and engaged in edit waring behavior in trying to force the images into the article. This has gone on now for a few days. I've left talk page and edit comment warnings but I believe this person doesn't like me and is now engaged in a "fight" of sorts. Could someone else maybe leave him/her a warning not to do these things? It might help defuse the situation. Green Cardamom (talk) 15:55, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I left a note.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:48, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

thank you, you said it better. Green Cardamom (talk) 17:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Spam revdel on Talk:Minecraft please

Live eBay links posted here (2 edit spa). I've blanked them, but they've also been restored (GF, but it's still spam) by another editor. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:54, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm surprised eBay links aren't blacklisted. Is there an encyclopedic purpose of which I'm not aware? Aside from a link to the main page from eBay of course. Sædon 19:00, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

You can always propose it at MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I've given the user a last warning on his talk page. That is a pretty obvious policy violation even for a new user, so I assume he will be blocked on site if he does it again. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

A blacklist wouldn't be helpful because eBay is a suitable source for images. You could probably find good examples of fair-use images that came from listings on eBay (album covers come to mind), and I've seen plenty of images of PD-old artwork (especially postcards) that came from there. If we blacklisted it, people wouldn't be able to provide good sources for images uploaded from eBay. Nyttend (talk) 23:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Phantom block of User:Zorro redux

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can anybody work out why Zorro redux (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is not blocked? Zorro was banned in 2006 by Jimmy Wales and the last action in the block log of that account is an indefinite block, yet the following observations lead me to think the account is able to edit.

• When editing his talk page, no message is displayed that "This user is currently blocked"
• The system considers there to be no current blocks of that account
• The log at the bottom of Special:Block/Zorro redux is in the past tense, as it is for users with a non-empty block log but no active blocks: "This user has been blocked previously"
• The markblocked script I have installed does not consider the account to be blocked

I also suspect that the same problem applies to Zephram Stark (talk · contribs), and I see several accounts on WP:BANLIST that should be blocked but aren't. None of the accounts seem to have been renamed at any time. AGK 17:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The block somehow failed. After I re-added the block, he shows up as blocked. Reaper Eternal (talk) 17:29, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

TParis and his actions

No consensus to restore rollback; also closing to stop the dramafest. --Rschen7754 04:45, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

TParis posted this on my talk page “I've removed rollback privileges from your account because you've been misusing the tool on Kashmir conflict. You have used the tool in a content dispute here and here and reverted good faith edits here and here. Rollback is for vandalism only. It isn't to make it easier to undo ~20 edits that you disagree with.”

I have not used rollback, as far as I can remember. I used either "undo" or "restore this version". I even told him, "Sir, I think you have made an honest mistake. I have not used "rollback" there. I used twinkle. Please give me those rights back." His reply was: “If I could remove Twinkle with it, I would.” - I have never talked to him before in my life. Why such hatred?

What is going on? I have not violated any rules which could justify this revocation. Technically I am entitled to this right. Mrt3366 17:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Is this anarchy now? Mrt3366 18:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• I just suggested to this user that an ANI thread might boomerang right back; unfortunately they went here before my note was up. Removing rollback (I didn't know anyone had a right to it) was the right course of action (FYI, Mrt, Twinkle uses rollback: if you use Twinkle to revert, you're using rollback). There is no hatred here that I can see, and the response from TParis is justified given your hostile tone. The best thing you can do for yourself is swallow your pride, cut your loss, and ask for this to be closed before you say something you'll regret for maybe longer than your block (should you continue down this path) lasts. Drmies (talk) 18:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

  Actually, no, Twinkle doesn't use Rollback - it works independently of it. And Twinkle "Rollback" is not restricted to vandalism-only use - the main reason being that Twinkle "Rollback" allows you to add an edit summary to explain the reasons for reverting, where Rollback doesn't. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

  (In fact, Twinkle even has a "Rollback (AGF)" option -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC))

  (edit conflict) Rollback is granted and removed based on community trust. This user has resorted to edit warring behavior in content disputes. The actually technical action used to perform the revert is inconsequential. The fact of the matter is, the user cannot be trusted with the tool and this is another reason that Twinkle needs a blacklist.--v/r - TP 18:10, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

  Yep, I agree - but I was just correcting a misunderstanding -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• "... three types of rollback functions"--I thought TW required rollback. Either way, "Anti-vandalism tools, such as Twinkle, Huggle, and rollback should not be used to undo good-faith changes in content disputes unless an appropriate edit summary is used", and I don't see appropriate summaries used in the Kashmir edit war. And Boing, I stand duly corrected. Thanks. 18:13, 10 September 2012 (UTC)Drmies (talk)

• This edit appears to be a non-Twinkle use of Rollback. Also, I support the removal of the right based on this editor's other negative reversions; one is not entitled to a userrights, they are entrusted with it. His response here makes me strongly doubt his case. MBisanz 18:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• If it has a custom summary, it would not appear. I still support removal based on his position here. MBisanz 18:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support TParis's actions. --John (talk) 18:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• If an editor has not abused a user right it should not be revoked. There is no abuse of actual rollback here. While edit warring is bad, and may deserve a response in this case, rollback wasn't involved and so should not be taken away as an unrelated punishment. Remember the point is to prevent further disruption, which removing it wont do. Monty₈₄₅ 18:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • How would you feel about an indef block on him until he promises never to edit war again? He's been warned twice this month about edit warring and copyright. MBisanz 18:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't indef block him if it were up to me, but I think a block would be more consistent with the policy goal of preventing further disruption. (I'm not going to formally oppose a block either) Monty₈₄₅ 18:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Agree, wrong punishment for the wrong crime. Might as well remove rollback from Drmies since they appear to be completely clueless as to what mechanism Twinkle uses for reverting. Leaky Caldron 18:20, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • What got up your butt, Leaky Caldron? Drmies (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

There is a big difference between rollbacking and reverting. Don't try to justify his actions, Drmies, please.

That's not a reason, however, why one should be divested of that rollbacking permission. I already told TParis that I will be doubly cautious from now on. Please give me that permission back. If you don't want me on wikipedia, just block me. This is really not right, you know. I commit one contravention you punish for another. That's not justice. I have slow net connection by the way. Please help me.Mrt3366 18:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

What happened to WP:AGF and giving warnings? Looks a bit heavy handed to revoke permissions without warning or discussion GimliDotNet 18:23, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

--v/r - TP 18:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• As a general rule, I don't agree with removing the rollback right as punishment for other misbehavior. I recall seeing one editor in the past having the rollback right removed for incivility, and also several times seeing rollback removed from editors who had recently been indef blocked, mostly as a "so there". At first glance, there seems to be some worrying behavior from Mrt3366 (edit warring, battleground mentality), which probably should be addressed directly, rather than have their knuckles rapped by removing rollback. Unless there is actual evidence of misuse of rollback (none of the cited diffs apply), I don't support this removal. It risks focusing discussion on the wrong things, and once that's decided (either way), thinking the issue is settled. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I apologize (mostly to myself, but also to all humanity) for participating in another ANI thread when I knew going into it that it would end up being stupid, dysfunctional, and pointless, used by everyone with an axe to grind to score points in their own wars. I won't strike my comment out, since my particular axe really does need grinding, but I promise to try harder to avoid this Black Hole of Pointlessness in the future. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:25, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• • I would agree it's a bad idea to refocus the discussion when the problem is in a specific area of the battleground mentality. But I don't think many people support my method of indef blocking until the user affirmatively promises they will change their menality to conform with the community. Lacking that ability compel a change in behavior, I think the less precise sanctions of removing additional rights are a good way to communicate the unacceptable nature of the editor's behavior. MBisanz 18:29, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

And when did the community come to this consensus? Admins are their to protect, not punish. GimliDotNet 18:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• If someone repeatedly causes edit-warring problems, then it seems reasonable to me to remove access to tools that facilitate edit-warring, even ones that have not specifically been used - Rollback can be granted/removed based on the suitability of the editor to use it. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Except it was removed specifically for alleged abuse, " “I've removed rollback privileges from your account because you've been misusing the tool on Kashmir conflict. You have used the tool in a content dispute here......." . He hasn't. Leaky Caldron 18:40, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, well, we could specifically give it back for that specific reason, and then remove it again for the more general reason - but that would just be wasting time and effort -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:45, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

You're punishing a user by removing privileges they haven't abused. Where is the community consensus to support this position? GimliDotNet 18:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

It's not a punishment -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:58, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Of course it is, you've been naughty, I'm bigger therefore I'm taking away a toy till you play nice. Never mind though, all admins together GimliDotNet 19:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Just a question: Why is it that if a sysop agrees with another, it must be because they are protecting their own? That kind of thinking is self fulfilling. Either the admin was wrong, or the admin was protected. There is no "the admin was right" option in there.--v/r - TP 19:13, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Because the arguments that are being made are ridiculous, the user has not abused the tools he's had revoked, there is no consensus from the community for punishing one misdemeanour by revoking unrelated privileges. The only remaining explanation is that either all admins are wrong (which is worrying) or all admins naturally support each others decisions. GimliDotNet 19:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

And those certainly are options, but your not considering that maybe others just disagree with your assessment of the situation? Different points of view. For me, rollback is rollback despite the tool. They've been warned previously. Twinkle should not be an exception to WP:EW. If it indeed is, then I think we had a serious hole in our policies.--v/r - TP 19:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Twinkle is not an exception to WP:EW - edit-warring is forbidden, whatever tools are used. The distinction between "regular" Rollback and Twinkle "Rollback" is about vandalism, not about edit-warring. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:49, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• I tend to agree with Boing. Because the behavior is related to the trust required to use the tools, it seems justified in this particular circumstance. Had the behavior not been related to the trust required, then I would have opposed the removal. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Show me where he was warned about rollback, where he has abused rollback and where the community has agreed that you can decide punitive punishments for unrelated transgressions (which are dubious at best) and I'll change my position. GimliDotNet 19:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Where did I edit war??? Oh my god.....Where did I edit war??? You say you wanna retain editors, Dennis? But it's also true that people learn from their mistakes if you don't give somebody even a little time to learn from their errors, then they will never learn. I will be doubly cautious. I already told you. But where does it say that rollbackers can't get into edit wars?

Pride???? Please read what I wrote to TParis in my first comment.

You, Drmies, threaten me with block as though you think block is punitive.
What am I being punished for exactly? Rudeness? I am not rude. I didn't intend to be rude to Anna Frodesiak by the way. It simply came in the heat of the moment. Yes, I admit I am a very passionate person. But in those reversals there were no passion involved. Is that my crime. What did I do to suddenly loose all community-trust? Misplaced Pages is not a vote also.

My net connection sucks. Oh...! This really discourages me from continuing on wikipedia. Mrt3366 18:48, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Fool, I didn't threaten you with anything at all. Learn to read before you fly off the handle. I told you--well, I tried to tell you, but you'd already posted this thread before I could hit "Save page"--that you'd be in trouble if you opened up this thread because much of your behavior has been questionable (I invite anyone to look on your talk page at the exchange you had with Anna Frodesiak; it takes a special kind of human to pick a fight with her). And look where we are. That wasn't a threat, it was a prediction. Drmies (talk) 22:52, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support removal. If Mrt had displayed the specific behavior with Twinkle and the undo function immediately prior to requesting rollback, I don't believe they would have been given rollback. On that standard, I see nothing wrong with removing it here. --Jayron32 18:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

  I take this as the only real reason for removing rollback from the user. But I think it goes too far given the nature of the editor's transgression. It's an issue about a low-intensity edit war that is involving some discussion. Nobody here honestly believes MRT is going to go nuts and start rolling back willynilly. Nor does it look like the "edit war" going on at India is even all that bad. That one editor called it an edit war is a stretch; it seems like more of a dispute resolution issue with not a lot of actual warring edits. If that's what this is really all about User:RegentsPark needs to be brought into this. I've left an ani template for Regents. Shadowjams (talk) 19:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• <ec>I agree with Monty. And given that it was removed under a misunderstanding of how Twinkle works, I'd say it makes sense to A) restore rollback B) give the user a "final" warning. While edit warring isn't a good thing, we don't (say) remove the admin tool because of it (at least not given such a limited instance). Hobit (talk) 18:52, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• I agree completely with Floquenbeam. The removal was apparently based on a misunderstanding of Twinkle/rollback works, and this focuses the issue on absolutely the wrong thing. Removing unrelated permissions when there's no evidence of abuse, and without a discussion (a templating for edit warring is not sufficient discussion) is a step too far. The problematic edit warring can be dealt with as we usually do. Also, I think in the api it is possible to customize edit summaries for rollback (huggle seems to do it). Rollback usage (this goes for admins too) needs to be looked at in context before calling it a misuse. Shadowjams (talk) 18:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

You know what, just block me with a sophisticated reason like he lacks blah blah blah. That would make things pretty easier. You don't have to bother about giving warnings. I want to get blocked forever, if community deems me untrustworthy . WOW!!!!! I am the one who is untrustworthy???? Hahahahaha.....Carry on! Mrt3366 19:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I know this can be frustrating, but outbursts like this right now don't help your position. Just try to lay out the facts calmly and clearly, and trust that people will make the right decision with the right information in front of them. Shadowjams (talk) 19:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support removal for now, especially until they mature a wee bit. Anyone with a propensity to edit-war cannot be trusted with the rollback permission, period whether they use the tool during said edit-warring or not. Show us 3 months of tool-free (and immature sarcasm-free) editing, re-apply. dangerouspanda 19:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Musing. After ArbCom desysops for conduct unbecoming of an admin, now admins remove rollback for a similar rationale. Perhaps in the future an admin should be allowed to desysop another for, say, making a revert he disapproves of? Or should a bureaucrat be allowed to desysops admins they deem naughty since they already have the necessary userrights? The definition of "naughty" shall remain at the latitude of the bureaucrat, e.g. for WP:UNCIVIL behavior like asking "What got up your butt"? Tijfo098 (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Support TParis Pass a Method talk 19:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• If I was the Admin here, having realised that I had made a good faith error in interpreting the editor's misuse of Rollback incorrectly, I would restore rollback, apologise for the drama, close this discussion and have serious words with the user about their behaviour on their Talk Page. Simple. Leaky Caldron 19:28, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I think my history speaks for itself that I have a good habit of backing off things and apologizing when I discover I am wrong. In this case, I disagree with your position. I'm not opposed to someone restoring, I sure wouldn't wheel war. But this user cannot be trusted with the tool. As I said, I'd take Twinkle away too if I could. If Twinkle is an exception to WP:EW, then we have a hole in policy that needs to be addressed.--v/r - TP 19:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
    • But you did state the reason for removing rollback specifically as abuse of that utility, with examples. He hadn't used it. Leaky Caldron 19:46, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
      • Are you positive Twinkle was used? I don't see a (TW) on the end of those edit summaries. And doesn't Stiki require rollback to use?--v/r - TP 20:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
    • Twinkle is not an exception to WP:EW -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
      • I never suggested it was but claiming misuse of a specific tool and giving supporting diffs which are just plain inaccurate does not look like the sort of action that would pass community muster at an RFA if such a question was to be posted, which it will! Leaky Caldron 20:06, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Support removal. TParis made a legitimate, independent judgment call that may have been debatable, but based on this user's own comments they evidently don't understand the nature by which extended user rights work (you're not "entitled" to anything) and aren't mature enough for me to feel comfortable restoring them. Mrt can continue using non-rollback tools for his vandalism work for now. Swarm 19:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• It's not the first time a user who was caught edit warring was stripped of his rollbacker flag, even though he did not technically misuse it. So, as far as I'm concerned, TParis's actions were justified. One question, Mrt3366: why do you want rollback back so badly? Considering you can use Twinkle to do almost everything you can do with it, your request is a sign of immaturity, in my opinion... Salvio 19:33, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment As a rollbacker who uses Huggle and Twinkle, I have found the terminology involved in this debate very confusing. One-click reversion of a single edit is given to all editors, by virtue of the "undo" button. One-click reversion of multiple consecutive edits by a user is granted by use of Twinkle, but there is no permission required from an admin such as TParis. The only thing that really requires permission is the ability to use Huggle (and STiki? less familiar with that one). So I don't really know what counts as a use of "rollback."

I actually had a minor misunderstanding with TParis soon after he granted me rollback rights that is not totally unrelated. I reverted one edit with the edit summary "unencyclopedic and POV" as an edit summary using Huggle. The user who made the edit left an angry message on my talk page, so TParis (politely) reminded me not to use rollback for content disputes. When I explained that I reverted for NPOV and gave a warning on that count, TParis said "it doesn't appear Huggle used rollback so you should be alright."

Basically, I am confused what counts as a rollback and is therefore grounds to have such privileges removed. --Jprg1966  20:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

At the technical level, rollback is a tool that allows all the consecutive edits from a particular editor to be undone without then need to ever load the page itself. There are 3 basic things called rollback, a raw rollback with no edit summary, which may be performed by clicking one of the rollback links the rollback right enables. Then there is rollback with an edit summary, tools including twinkle, will use rollback if available to more work slightly more efficiently, but will leave an edit summary. Then there is the rollback available through Twinkle for those without the userright, which afaik, automatically edits the page just as an editor manually reverting multiple edits would. In terms of the policy, its fine whichever way you do it so long as you leave an appropriate edit summary, rollback with no summary on the otherhand is highly restricted to certain specific uses. Monty₈₄₅ 20:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah, so the current Twinkle will use the userright if you have it - I presume that came along with the new version that uses the API properly. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:17, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

My understanding is that it does, though I'm not involved in the development, and can't say for certain about the current version. Monty₈₄₅ 20:36, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Close thread time? The reason for his appeal here seems to be based not on a denial that he edit warred but that he didn't use specific tools to do it. It doesn't sound like someone I would trust with rollback; he can re-request at a later time through the regular way. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Must be a Monday Editor 1 does something that is not 100% kosher. Admin 2 decides that they'll take their mop handle and use it on Editor 1 without any sort of AGF or suggestion to Editor 1 that they knock it off. Editor 1, rightly or wrongly, is indignated about said use of the mop handle. Entire community decides that they havent had enough drama fiber in their diet and joins in in the drama feast. This wordplay brought to you by the DramaLlama! Hasteur (talk) 21:52, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose removal of Rollback I didn't see any evidence of misusing rollback. May be edit warring, but didn't appear to be misusing the feature. Looks like the use was just reverting to an older version of the page, which I believe is not the same thing. If edit warring us occurring then a report needs to be made at 3RR. Admins shouldn't be "Judge Dredding" Misplaced Pages editors.JOJ 22:06, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• On the one hand: I strongly oppose the concept that a single admin could revoke a user permission for a completely unrelated reason. The Rollback right isn't given as a Good Conduct medal, it's given as a tool to more easily revert vandalism. On the other hand: the OP isn't showing in this thread the maturity and coolheadedness one expects of Rollbackers, and this isn't emboldening me to support its restoration in his case. Ravenswing 22:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• From where I'm sitting, there's no consensus that TParis be chastised for removing the tool. So, this thread will not lead to anything actionable. Editors have noted that the plaintiff has a bit of a temper, in words and deeds; if plaintiff wants to request rollback again in a month or so, if they can prove they aren't the kind of user who would abuse the tool, then it can be restored. Easy enough. Drmies (talk) 23:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• With respect to TParis, I do not support this removal. Rollback wasn't used here. In its default form, Rollback does not allow custom edit summaries. All of the diffs cited in his removal notification had custom edit summaries. It was either Twinkle, the Undo feature, or a script that allows custom summaries. It is my understanding that the entire purpose of disallowing Rollback on good faith edits is because it allows editors to quickly remove material without explanation. If an explanation is provided, the directive does not really apply. I have considered the argument mentioned here that since the user has edit warred he cannot be trusted with a tool that facilitates edit warring, but I find that a bit of a stretch. I want to see actual misuse of the tool in question before it is removed. Maybe if this user was a persistent edit warrior (I have looked and don't see much proof of that) or had some other obvious problem I would reconsider this 'trust' assertion, but this seems like a one-strike-you're-out event that is only peripherally related to the actual issue. I find the situation inconsistent with the spirit of preventative sanctions . . it is pre-empting disruption (Rollback disruption) that has no supplied evidence of prior existence. NTox · talk 00:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I just want to say that I never feel it's disrespectful to be critical of me. No worries here.--v/r - TP 00:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. I think it should be left up to TP to decide whether to restore the user's rollback privileges. The "behavioral guideline" states that "editors who misuse standard rollback (for example, by using it to reverse good-faith edits in situations where an explanatory edit summary would normally be expected) may have their rollback rights removed." Whatever the editor did here, they used edit summaries. Apparently, this is a problematic editor, and it may certainly be the case that they would not be granted rollback privileges at this juncture. However, the removal of the privilege, albeit understandable, is technically incorect - although one could argue that the guideline doesn't prohibit the removal of the privilege for other reasons; indeed, it is stated in the permissive. As an aside, at the risk of being called "clueless", I thought that when Twinkle is used, the action is marked as "TW", but I confess to not having written Twinkle.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:11, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

To briefly expand upon that aside: the TW appendix is default to Twinkle; you can change to whatever you like in Misplaced Pages:Twinkle/Preferences. I for one am someone who has very surreptitiously blanked it from my edit summaries completely. No offense to the Twinkle devs. NTox · talk 01:20, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

• I have to disagree with this action. Removing one tool in response to an unrelated problem is not a good thing to do, unless that "one tool" is the edit permission: such an action is punishment, because it won't help to resolve the unrelated problem. Nyttend (talk) 02:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
• The initial misuse of rollback is probably best addressed by helping the editor understand how not to use the tool. Considering that Mrt3366 was (apparently) not consciously using the tool for edit warring, and even though the article itself is under arbcom sanctions, I suggest restoring the tool with a reminder that, per the arbcom ruling, edit warring on India/Pakistan pages will be dealt with severely. As Nyttend says, removing rollback doesn't really address the problem. It's a bit like trying to fix the hole in the titanic with a safety pin!--regentspark (comment) 02:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

DanielUmel on Syrian Civil War articles

DanielUmel (talk · contribs) has repeatedly edit warred, added glaringly one-sided info that misrepresents sources, and attacked other users on articles related to the Syrian Civil War.

On the article Battle of Al-Qusayr, he added this one-sided story which misrepresents what the source says and ignores key info. Myself and User:I7laseral reverted him twice each. For doing so, he accused us of supporting Islamists and trying to "hide the truth" (see here). I re-wrote what he had written to make it more neutral and in line with the source, but he reverted me. When I wrote to him about his behavior, he again simply accused me of supporting Islamist terrorists and trying to hide the truth (see here).

DanielUmel has also been edit warring on the articles Rif Dimashq offensive, Darayya massacre and Al-Nusra Front (in the latter he ignored WP:TERRORISM). He has been reported four times for edit warring since 26 July.
~Asarlaí 22:13, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

This is the worst kind of edit warring — taking material that could be of use and making it useless. Obvious civility problems, to boot. DanielUmel could use a time-out from editing on articles related to the Syrian Civil War. --Jprg1966  03:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Add that to remarks as this (which win the "I don't even think you tried to keep your POV in check" award) and the bad-faithed, disparaging talk headings I changed here and here. See also any of 4 3RR reports filed against him: . Additionally, he has made virtually no edits whatsoever outside of this topic area since his explosion onto the scene at the end of June. An acronym beginning with S and ending with PA comes to mind here. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Parrot of Doom abusive behavior

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I foolishly decided to do some research on their original dispute and offer what I found. Since you're talking about the behavior of rollbackers in another thread, I'd like to point out this: . This isn't even bad etiquette; it's just outright verbal abuse. As I suspected, there was noone clean in that dispute.

BTW, and this: . —Kerfuffler 22:54, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Yep, much of this is way out of line. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Some of these comments were certainly rude, but I don't see anything that requires admin intervention here. Mark Arsten (talk) 23:03, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• *groan* - nothing to really see here. Concur with Mark. – Connormah (talk) 23:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • I've just left PoD a warning for one comment, but some of the difs above are nowhere near verbal abuse, and some are pretty sensible . Mark Arsten (talk) 23:08, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
• Eh, what's wrong with this? Kerfuffler? Drmies (talk) 23:11, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
  • "BTW, and this": that is very insightful. It's not PoD, it's Malleus, in spirited conversation with an IP editor who was blocked for edit warring, an IP editor whose side the plaintiff has taken. In other words, this smacks of sour grapes for being on the losing end of a content discussion. That conversation makes for interesting reading--PoD and Malleus are being their usual selves, the IP is trying to get a rise of out them ("the bored, trolling teenagers are winning"--screw that, and note the other abuse, and the allegation that PoD is operating a sock farm to control the FA he helped write), and Kerfuffler is playing the IP's hand. Moving right along: nothing here to see, except that we'll keep this in mind next time they try to get others in trouble by dragging them to ANI. Drmies (talk) 23:16, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Drmies: Not only admitting to ownership, but outright bragging about it. How can that not be problematic? —Kerfuffler 23:43, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• Mark Arsten: I'm getting a good feel for why Misplaced Pages has a reputation for driving people away, when people don't even try to be civil and actually get backed up for it. Seriously, I'm disgusted. —Kerfuffler 23:43, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The point is that this doesn't require any admin intervention - block are preventative, not punitive. – Connormah (talk) 23:45, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

...and seeing as he can be fully expected to brag about WP:OWN more, seems like it'd be preventative to me... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:38, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

JonFlaune recent behauvior and ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Let's wait until his block expires. He's got enough WP:ROPE at this point. --Jayron32 00:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to raise the issue about JonFlaune (talk · contribs). He was recently banned for 3RR violation and then a two week ban for continuing the edit war immediately after the earlier ban ended. Obviously he got quite hot-heated in the dispute, and then kept removing the notifications from his talk page, and issued quite a concerning message to the admin (User:Toddst1) in the edit summary: Pathetic. I'm going to make sure your POV pushing and abuse of tools to further the far-right agenda are investigated properly.. Quite inappropriate, and so that Toddst1 is not completely alone here being acccused, it would be good if other admins take a look at the situation too.

• Furthermore, regarding the earlier behauvior of JonFlaune, he has accused an admin of bias earlier. The debate got heated over the deletion of Islamophobia related categories, and he filed a DRV that eventually upkept the decision. While at that, he condemned the admin who closed the CfD with harsh words (see the DRV). But not just that, he also nominated three antisemitism-related categories to make a WP:POINT Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_August_11#Category:Antisemitism_in_Palestine. Here he was even more aggressive accusing the closing admin (User:Mike Selinker) of "striking double standards" and "you people sabotaging" (diff).
• While the discussion was going on with the CfD on Islamophobia categories, he updated his user page. (diff). He basically implies that the people he disagreed with are "politically extreme users" and quotes a newspaper article about subject hijacking.
• Related to those newspaper articles, after the 3RR ban he issued a "Final note." (diff). He says more media coverage is coming on . That's not exactly a WP:THREAT, because it's not a legal one, but just makes me wonder who should be worried and is he journalist or who's writing an article on it? After that, he issued the other inappropriate "warning" to the admin who banned him as I earlier linked diff.

I think this has gone too far. I've been participating in some those discussions and respect the people who I disagree with, so it's not definitely nice to see that. It really poisons the editing atmosphere if you go that hot-heated. And the threat that some editors are now getting "media coverage" is definitely weird. Should I feel worried about writing this ANI?

JonFlaune is currently banned for a 2-week period, but I've notified him on his talk page. --Pudeo' 23:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I think you mean s/he is blocked for a 2-week period, which is different from being banned.

That aside, s/he has been pretty much singularly-focused as User:JonFlaune states, "I try to do my best to counter Islamophobic POV pushing." Toddst1 (talk) 23:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Because I've been asked my opinion: I am not terribly happy with JonFlaune's behavior toward me, but I've moved on from it. I'll leave it to others to decide whether that suggests some sort of action should be taken, though.--Mike Selinker (talk) 23:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed a block, not a ban. My fault. Regarding the extent what JonFlaune went to criticize the CfD-closing admin Mike Selinker, that's probably a strategy to try to influence admins closing the discussions. If an admin who closes a tough CfD always gets attacked, who wants to make those calls anymore? Distruptive. --Pudeo' 23:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

That stuff doesn't work on me, obviously. I expect that any time I close a debate with an obviously disruptive user on the losing side, I will issue three opinions: in the original close, in the DRV, and in the user's subsequent block discussion. It doesn't bother me. (However, someone should really close those POINTy discussions he launched.)--Mike Selinker (talk) 23:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• After his block ended and he recommenced inserting his preferred version and then left a vandalism final warning on the talk page of a user who reverted him, before hounding him to a article he had never previously edited. He also reported an established editor that was contesting his edits to AIV. It is apparent that he does not tolerate disagreement and the retaliatory deletion nominations of three antisemitism-related categories further demonstrate this. Perhaps it is desirable that his adamantine attentions are directed towards a different topic area? Ankh.Morpork 23:49, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm the editor that Ankh mentions, and I was going to bring up those diffs, but I see he already has... I agree with what Ankh says, but would like to add one thing as well. JonFlaune has absolutely zero tolerance for anyone - be it editor or reliable reference - that disagrees with his POV. So if reliable refs disagree with him, he often just removes them, and says he's fixing the POV, while calling them "far-right extremists" on the talk page (i'm talking about established outlets like The Telegraph...). Ankh gave examples of which he harassed me, both on my user page, by wikihounding me, and by filing an NPOV report against me (which, ironically, he got banned for 2 weeks just a few minutes after he filed it...). His edits aren't constructive and his POV pushing violates so many Misplaced Pages rules... I don't have an opinion on giving him an indefinite block, but I definitely don't think he should be allowed to be editing this topic area (I'm referring to Arab-Israeli conflict, but I assume it's the same in Islam-related articles and Jewish-related articles as well, as examples were given above in these articles, so I'd say such a ban should apply there as well). --Activism1234 00:05, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Comment—He did the crime, he's doing the time. But how does anyone think it's reasonable to discuss this while he's blocked and can't participate?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

This behauvior is going far back, as my top comment explains. The recent 3RR violation and its aftermath was explained in AnkhMorpok's comment, and I wasn't going into that in my original comment. Besides, after the last ban he still made that media coverage claim and that very questionable comment and investigation threat on the admin who banned him. Unfortunately, it just looks we're short on ways to cooperate here.

Also, he can comment this on his talk page and I hope he does so. --Pudeo' 00:15, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm closing this down. I concur with Alf here. If problems start again (socking or disruption when the block ends) then we can address it then. He's blocked, there's no need to sit here and gossip about him in his absence. This is quite enough. Let's invoke WP:ROPE here, let the block expire of its own accord, and see what he does when the block expires. --Jayron32 00:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

• Socking was never an issue here. A blocked editor has the right to reply to an ANI on his talk page. JonFlaune still has an access to his talk page and I notified him. I request this discussion to be re-opened. --Pudeo' 00:23, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

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