Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:56, 4 May 2006

Adolf Hitler was a good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. Review: No date specified. To provide a date use: {{DelistedGA|insert date in any format here}}.

Template:FACfailed is deprecated, and is preserved only for historical reasons. Please see Template:Article history instead.

This article (or a previous version) is a former featured article candidate. Please view its sub-page to see why the nomination did not succeed. For older candidates, please check the Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Politics Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Template:FAOL

An event in this article is a January 30 selected anniversary. (may be in HTML comment)

Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35

• Adolf or Adolph
• Hitler's_Sexuality: please direct all speculation about Hitler's sexuality to this page
• Was Hitler catholic?

Assassination attempts?

I think something should be added to this article, even if just a link, to the assassination attempts on him. 64.16.162.161 14:49, 14 April 2006 (UTC)FactFreak

Hitler's religion as an adult

I have merged the Catholic upbringing into the "religious views" section, as we shouldn't separate the two. I have also added information on his adolescence, based on Michael Rissmann's book Hitlers Gott. The following is the chapter "Catholicism" from Part III. "Origins" - a translation will follow in time:

1. KATHOLIZISMUS

Was die Quellen über frühe Berührungen Hitlers mit dem Katholizismus berichten, ist schnell erzählt.452 Die Familie, der römisch-katholischen Kirche zugehörig, führte kein ausgesprochen religiöses Leben. Nur die Mutter Klara besuchte regelmäßig die Messe, Vater Alois hingegen verstand sich als »Freigeist« und nahm am Gottesdienst nur an Kaisers Geburtstag teil, um seine seit der Pensionierung nicht mehr genutzte Beamtenuniform vorzuführen.453 Nach einem Umzug der Familie besuchte Hitler die Volksschule von Lambach und auch die dortige Sängerknabenschule des Benediktinerstifts. In »Mein Kampf« berichtet er knapp: »Da ich in meiner freien Zeit im Chorherrenstift zu Lambach Gesangsunterricht erhielt, hatte ich beste Gelegenheit mich oft und oft am feierlichen Prunke der äußerst glanzvollen kirchlichen Feste zu berauschen. Was war natürlicher, als daß, genau so wie einst dem Vater der kleine Herr Dorfpfarrer, nun mir der Herr Abt als höchst erstrebenswertes Ideal erschien.«454 Auf väterlichen Wunsch hin wechselte Hitler 1900 auf die Linzer Realschule, unter deren Schülern ein weltanschaulich-politischer Kampf zwischen klerikal gesinnten »Kaisertreuen« und den »freisinnigen«, Georg Sch6nerers DVP anhängenden Deutschnationalen herrschte - Hitler sympathisierte mit letzteren. Dieses Umfeld, besonders aber der Religionslehrer dürften eine zunehmend antiklerikale Haltung des Knaben verursacht haben. An dem streng dogmatischen Katholizismus des Sales Schwarz störte sich der alldeutsch denkende Hitler und reagierte mit Streichen und kritischen Fragen, von denen man allerdings nur aus seinen Berichten weiß: Vor

94

What the sources report about Hitler's early contacts with Catholicism is quickly recounted. The family, members of the Roman Catholic Church, was not leading a particular religious live. Only mother Klara regularly attended Mass, while father Alois considered himself "free spirit" and took part in the Church service on on the Emperor's holiday, to show off his uniform, unused since his reitrement. After the family had moved, Hitler attended primary school in Lambach and also the choir boy school of the Benedictine monastery. In "Mein Kampf" he reports simply: "Since in my spare time I received singing lessons in the monastery at Lamabach, I had ample opportunity to frequently indulge in the celebrative pomp of the very bright church feasts. What was more natural than that, as the village priest had to my father, now the abbot seemed to me the ideal most worth to aim for." As his father wished, Hitler in 1900 switched to the secondary school in Linz, where a ideological-political struggle between the clerically-minded "Kaisertreue" and the "liberal" nationalist, allied to Georg Schönerers DVP, was raging among the pupils - Hitler sympathized with the latter ones. This environment, especially the teacher in religious studies, resulted in an increasingly anti-clerical stance of the boy. The pan-german thinking Hitler objected to the strictly dogmatic Catholicism of Sales Schwarz and reacted with pranks and critical questions, which however are only known from his accounts. In front of ...

den Bunkerinsassen des Weltkriegs gefiel sich der Diktator in der Rolle des aufgeklärten »Freidenkers«, der schon als Schüler die Lügenmärchen einer bigotten Kirche durchschaut habe. Besonders die Diskrepanz von Darwinismus und christlicher Schöpfungsgeschichte sei ihm aufgefallen:

»Ich habe als Schuljunge den Widerspruch empfunden und mich darin verbohrt und habe dem Professor der zweiten Stunde vorgehalten was der der ersten Stunde gesagt hat, so daß die Lehrer in Verzweiflung gerieten!«455 Die jüngst vorgetragene These, Hitlers religiöse Anschauungen seien bereits in Linz entscheidend durch Ludwig Wittgenstein geprägt worden, beruht hingegen auf allzu kühner Spekulation.456

Nur unwillig ließ Hitler die Firmung im Linzer Dom über sich ergehen. Sein Firmpate Emanuel Lugert und dessen Frau berichteten später von einem »mürrischen und verstockten« Firmling, dem weder die Zeremonie noch das teure Firmgeschenk etwas zu bedeuten schien;457 in das Reich der Legende gehört freilich der angebliche an anderer Stelle bereits erwahnte »Hostienfrevel« Hitlers.458 Auch der Jugendfreund Kubizek portratierte einen Hitler, dem alles Kirchliche fremd war. An einen Gottesdienstbesuch Hitlers konnte er sich nicht erinnern, allerdings ebensowenig an antiklerikale Polemik. Hitler versuchte nie, den Freund vom Kirchbesuch abzuhalten, wenngleich er aus seinem Unverständnis kein Hehl machte: Seine eigene Mutter sei auch eine fromme Frau, »trotzdem lasse er sich von ihr nicht zur Kirche nötigen«.459 Niemals jedoch, so berichtet Kubizek, habe Hitler »über diesen sonntaglichen Kirchgang abfällig gesprochen«, nicht einmal eine Streitfrage daraus gemacht. Lediglich Hexenverbrennungen und Inquisition früherer Zeiten empörten Hitler - wie

95

the inmates of the world war bunker the dictator liked to play the role of the enligthened "freethinker", who had already as a pupil seen through the fairytale lies of a biogotted Church. Especially the discrepancy of Darwinism and the Christian creation account had caught his attention.

"As a school boy I have felt the contradiction and digged into it and have confronted the teacher of the second lesson what the one of the first lesson had said, thereby driving teachers insane!" The thesis recently put forth, that already in Linz Hitler's religious views had been decisively shaped by Ludwig Wittgenstein, however rest on all too bold a speculation.

Only unwillingly Hitler endured the confirmation at Linz Cathedral. His sponsor Emanuel Lugert and his wife later talked about a "grumpy and stubborn" confirmand, to whom neither the ceremony nor the expensive present seemed to mean anything; Hitler's alleged host desecration, already mentioned elsewhere, however belongs into the realm of legend. Kubizek, Hitler's friend, potrayed Hitler as someone, to whom all ecclesiastical things were alien. He could not remember Hitler attending a service, but neither anti-clerical polemics. Hitler never tried to keep the friend vom attending church, though he didn't hide his lack of comprehension: His own mother were a pious woman, but "nonetheless he would not be pushed into Church". However, Hitler never, according to Kubizek, spoke disparagingly about his going to Church on Sunday, and didn't even start an argument about it. Only witchtrials and inquisitions of former times outraged Hitler, as ...

später im Weltkrieg - schon in Linz.460 Zu einer Berührung mit kirchlichem Zeremoniell kam es lediglich bei der Beerdigung der Mutter.461 Im ganzen Iäßt sich an Hitlers religiöser Sozialisation nichts Ungewöhnliches feststellen: Als Sohn eines »freisinnigen« Vaters, geprägt durch das all-deutsche Denken einiger Klassenkameraden, erscheint die Lösung vom Katholizismus nicht ungewöhnlich. Eine Totalerklärung Hitlers aus einer österreichisch-katholischen Mentalitat, wie Friedrich Heer sie vorschlägt kann aus den vorliegenden Quellen der Jugendzeit jedenfalls nicht abgeleitet werden.462 Der Diktator Hitler neigte zum Ritual, zu gottesdienstähnlichen Inszenierungen, er bewunderte die jahrtausendealte Tradition der Kirche, suchte aus ihrer Struktur für seine politischen Unternehmungen zu lernen -ansonsten haßte er sie. In seinen Reden knüpfte Hitler zwar an Sprachformen des Christentums an und übernahm von dort einzelne Denkfiguren wie »Heilsgeschichte«463 und »Vorsehung«,464 verknüpfte sie aber mit Inhalten, die allen christlichen Traditionen widersprechen: Der christliche Gott und Hitlers Gott haben nur den Namen gemeinsam.

96

later in the world war, son already in Linz. The only contact with church ceremonies was at his mother's funeral. All in all, one cannout detect anything extraordinary about Hitler's religious socialisation: as the sone of a "liberal" father, formed by the pan-german thinking of some of his classmates, his dissolution from Catholicism does not seem extraordinary. Explaing the whole of Hitler from a Austrian-catholic mentality, as Friederich Heer had proposed, can not be deduced from the sources about this youth. The Dictator Hitler was inclined to rituals, to liturgicy-like stagings and admired the millenia-spanning tradition of the Church, tried to draw lessons from her structure for his political enterprises - in all other respects he hated her. In his speeches, Hitler alluded to linguistical forms of Christianity and introduced from there some thinking patterns like "salvation history" and "providence", but he combined them with contents contradicting all christian traditions: the Christian God and Hitler's god have only the name in common.

452 Die bekannten Hitler-Biographien informieren auch über die österreichische Kindheit und Jugend Hitlers. Daneben liegen eigene Monographien vor, vgl. zuletzt Brigitte Hamann: Hitlers Wien. Lehrjahre emes Diktators. München/Zürich 1996. S. 11-64. lhre quellenkritische Darstellung erganzt und vertieft zahlreiche altere Arbeiten, so v.a. William A. Jenks: Vienna and the young Hitler. New York 1960; Bradley F Smith: Adolf Hitler. His Family. Childhood and Youth. Stanford/California 1967. Stark populärwissenschaftlich und ohne quellenkritischen Anspruch J. Sydney Jones: Hitlers Weg begann in Wien. 1907-1913. Wiesbaden/München 1980. Quellenkritische Anmerkungen zu den wenigen Zeugnissen der osterreichischen Jahre Hitlers bei Hamann: Hitlers Wien. S. 77-86.

453 Den Bericht des Heeresadjutanten Engel über elne entsprechende Äußerung Hitlers (Heeresadjutant bel Hitler 1938-1943. Aufzeichnungen des Majors Engel. Hg. u. kommentiert v. Hildegard von Kotze. Stuttgart 1974. S. 22) bestätigt der von Franz Jetzinger befragte Bauer Josef Mayrhofer. der zeitweilig Vormund Adolf Hitlers war. Franz Jetzinger: Hitlers Jugend. Phantasien, Lügen - und die Wahrheit. Wien 1956. S. 70).

454 MK.S.3f.

455 Tischgespräch. 24.10.1941. Picker. S. 147.

456 Kimberley Cornish geht davon aus, daß beide dieselbe Klasse der Linzer Realschule besuchten und sich persönlich gut kannten; als Beweis dient ihm ein Klassenfoto, auf dem er Wittgenstein erkennen will. Außerdem konstruiert er Parallelen zwischen Wittgensteins Philosophie und dem Weltbild Hitlers. Dabei überschätzt er die intellektuellen Kapazitäten des Diktators und greift. um

241

Hitlers angebliche okkultistische Interessen zu beweisen, auf die erfundenen Gespräche zurtick, die Hermann Rauschning mit Hitler geführt haben will (vgl. zu diesem unten S. 163-166). Kimberley Cornish: Der Jude aus Linz. Hitler und Wittgenstein. Berlin 1998.

457 Jetzinger: Hitlers Jugend. S. 116.

458 Jetzinger: Hitlers Jugend. S. 105.

459 August Kubizek: Adolf Hitler. Mein Jugendfreund. Graz/Göttingen, l953.S.114.

460 Kubizek: Adolf Hitler. S. 114.

461 Kubizek: Adolf Hitler. S. 170.

462 Heer: Der Glaube. Vgl. zu Heers Thesen die Bemerkungen in der Einleltung dieses Buches.

463 Zu Begriff und Denktradition Karl Löwith: Weltgeschichte und Heilsgeschehen. 8. Aufl. Stuttgart/Berlin/Köln 1990; instruktiv in diesem Zusammenhang auch Romano Guardini: Der Helibringer in Mythos, Offenbarung und Politik. Eine theologisch-politische Besinnung. Stuttgart 1946.

464 Vgl. zur christlichen Tradition des Begriffs Richard Kocher: Herausgeforderter Vorsehungsglaube. Die Lehre von der Vorsehung im Horizont der gegenwartigen Theologie. St. Ottilien 1993; zur begriffsgeschichtlichen Herleitung: Rudolf Meißner: Vorsehung. In: Jacob und Wilhelm Grimm: Deutsches Wbrterbuch. Bd. 12.11. Abt. Vesche-Vulkanisch. Bearb. v. Rudolf Meißner. Leipzig 1951. Sp. 1547-1553.

Str1977 09:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I expanded the new section. It still needs more work, and I have the references for all the quotes, if needed. I'm not sure how to add in citations, yet, either. Giovanni33 17:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Str77, you are presenting what is in this translated article as fact in the Hitler article. That is wrong. The material is the opinion of the source, not fact. You need to re-write the Hitler article so that is reports what this source says as coming from that source, not as objective fact. Furthermore, just who is Michael Rissmann and why does his view rate inclusion in the article at all? -- Drogo Underburrow 17:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, we can still take care of the language.

Michael Rissmann is a young German historian who has written the most recent and IMHO most comprehensive and scholarly study of Hitler's religious thougt. It was reviewed laduingly by Frank-Lothar Kroll ("first comprehensive, truly source based narration and interpretation of the phenomenon ... a groundworking book") and Ian Kershaw ("combatting abstruse theories about occultism ... critical approach on fashionable interpretations ... important contribution to NS-research"). In fact, I did not delv much into Rissmann's book (I'd have to reread it entirely for that and it would bloat the article) and only included basic things. Rissmann even opposes the term "political religion" - but it should be included anyway. Str1977 18:48, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

You've had time, Str77, and still the article is written as giving the 'truth' rather than telling the reader what scholars say. Michael Rissman's opinions are his own, not the truth. Just as you keep deleting or changing Steigmann-Gall's opinions from the article, I'm going to start removing material that is presented as fact, when its Michael Rissman's opinion. Please re-write it so that views are clearly indicated as the opinion of who says them, not written as the way things are, then footnoted. And stop removing the views of other scholars.Drogo Underburrow 18:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I thought we should do it together. Could you please indicate which parts seem to be "questionable" to you. You know, sometimes Steigmann-Gall and Rissmann agree (the former does not appear in the literature of the latter, so he hasn't used him).

Note that Rissmann's are not mere opinions but the result of historical research and interpretation (don't get me wrong, there is a measure of opinion included, of course).

However, I don't think the "when Hitler said Christianity he meant Catholicism" is anything more than speculation. When he said Christianity he meant traditional or (pre-Higher Criticism deconstruction) mainstream or (as I would call it, but that might be seen as POV:) orthodox Christianity. He had no objection to a reinvented ("positive") Christianity. His preference for Protestantism derived from various factors: Protestantism was organized nationally, the Reformation already had a nationalist element, Luther was (is) a national hero to some Germans (among other things, for his Bible translation), Protestant Churches always were close to the governments, Protestantism was much more open for such reinventions (the RCC had only recently cracked down on "Modernism").

But again, my question is: what passages need to be de-POV'ed. I agree that everything should have a reference and I will add them in time. But in which casesshould I add, "according to Rissmann...", since serious disagreement exists. Your call.

Str1977 18:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I would be happy to discuss and work with you on this issue. You should add a form of "according to Rissmann" where ever you feel the need to have a footnote noting he is the source. If you like, you can combine his views into separate paragraphs where you note the opinions given are his so you don't have to repeat "according to Rissmann" excessively. There are also various ways you can point to Rissmann as the source without repeating any one too much. But simply tagging a footnote to a declarative statement isn't one of them, as to the reader, the statement is being said to be fact, backed up by a source. What will evolve is probably paragraphs devoted to Rissman's views, and ones devoted to Steigmann-Gall's views, and ones devoted to other views as editors add them. If the material gets long enough, it can be moved to the main article and replaced with a summary of what is said.

What do you mean that what Rissman says is not an opinion? Of course it is, it is Rissman's opinion. Just as Steigmann-Gall's opinion is his own, and you should stop removing the material I insert giving his opinion, as its clearly marked as being his opinion. Its speculation perhaps what Goebbels meant when he said "Christianity"; but it is a fact that Steigmann-Gall suggests he meant "Catholicism" by it. Remember, the key is we should be reporting what the scholars say, not writing about what is. Drogo Underburrow 19:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Strikes me that, having reported a statement referring to "christianity", a historian who speculates that what was meant was "catholicism" is writing like a newspaper columnist. Strike it out.--shtove 20:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

That is against the spirit of NPOV, to delete something that a source says because an editor thinks it is wrong. Now you are setting yourself up as the judge of who is right and wrong in matters of opinion, and deleting the "wrong" opinion. NPOV is about presenting what valid sources say, and taking a neutral position as to whether what they say is truth or nonsense. Drogo Underburrow 20:17, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Nah. There is good history writing and bad history writing. This is an example of the latter, and it's unacceptable by the criterion that divides fact from speculation. Opinion is welcome, so long as it's neutral and based on fact. The Hitler/Nazi/WWII market is the largest in non-fiction publishing, and a lot of material is passed off there as credible work when it's no more than the rehashing of established facts, but with the enthusiasm of a cross-eyed lunatic. Having said that, I don't know about the writer in question - but quoting Goebbels with this twist betrays a certain waywardness. Hitler's minister said what he said - that's all that should be allowed in a WP article.--shtove 21:24, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

You need to read NPOV. Source's opinions certainly do not need to be neutral; its editors who must be neutral. Articles are kept neutral by using all relevant sources; the sources arguments are not neutral in themselves, but each has its own POV. Steigmann-Gall is not "rehashing established facts" nor is his work of questionable value. Instead, it is cutting-edge work that is respected by the top names in the field, including the historians his work challenges. Read the book review link in the external links section, which is written by a top historian in the field whose work Steigmann-Gall challenges. Steigmann-Gall's challenge of Goebbels statement represents the opinion of a leading researcher in this field, and hence belongs in the article. Drogo Underburrow 23:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Drogo,

• I know about referencing and including "according to ...". The things is I will, in time, reference all these statements but I don't think all these statements are controversial enough to deserve an added "according to ..." And this is were those of a different stance come in.
• However I must agree with Shtove that the Steigmann speculation is not includable - it is really mere speculation of putting words into someone's mouth. There are valid and serious things to say about Hitler's relative preference for the RCC and the Protestant Church and which reasons lie behind that. I explained these above. The thing he preferred was "Positive Christianity".

So I am asking you again to state your objections and not simply delete stuff. Most of all don't insert unsubstantiated changes like that Hitler's mum was a "fervent" Catholic - there is absolutely no basis for that (if she was such a fervent Catholic, why was she one of Alois' parallel girlfriends for some years?) Str1977 08:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, I oppose the insertion of statments like "What is certain is that he was neither an agnostic, nor an atheist." - While that's certainly true, it is also just as certain that he was not a Catholic and not a Christian in the sense of traditional Christianity. Of course, he didn't reject all of his upbringing and rather reinvented than rejected Jesus (which isn't uncommon even nowadays). For H's belief in the afterlife we have no references at all. Str1977 09:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

One more thing, I will try to get an assessement about Steigmann-Gall's book. As I said, the scholarly Rissmann does not discuss it anyway - which is not necessarily a bad thing: he did discuss Rauschnigg with the fitting result: fiction! Str1977 09:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

We as editors are supposed to take a neutral point of view; editors deciding when Steigmann-Gall's views are wrong and arn't going to be allowed in the article is hardly being neutral, it is deciding the issue. As for my objections, I voiced them already, and told you I would start deleting Rissman's views if they were stated as fact and not as his opinion.

Influenced by pan-german nationalism and social darwinism, he began to reject the Church and Catholicism as an adolescent, and after he had left home, he stopped attending mass and receiving sacraments altogether, thereby ceasing to be a practising Catholic. - did Rissman say everything in this sentence? Or did Rissman just say that pan-German nationalism and social darwinism made Hitler reject the Church?

You give in a footnote Cornwell's use of material that Steigmann-Gall says is false; but you delete Steigmann-Gall's saying it, again deciding the issue for the reader. Drogo Underburrow 10:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, no you were not yet commenting on anything specific, but now you are:

• The quoted bit is what Rissmann says based on Hitler's own account of his school years. Hitler's environment in secondary school was pan-german nationalist (hence anti-Habsburg) and he also came into contact with Darwinism, which he considered to be incompatible with Genesis and hence rejected the Church connected with that biblical account. That's not all that outrageous. But, since you insist, I will add a disclaimer saying "according to Hitler's account" or the like. PS. This is actually the one that is already referenced.
• Re the footnote: where does Steigmann-Gall says that the material is false? I have seen some discussion up there (involving Bytwerk and Giovanni), with wrong perceptions about that reference (that it was from Table Talk (appearently wrong), that Table Talk is fraudulent (definitely wrong, though it should be treated with caution). Please enlighten me.

Str1977 10:40, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

According to John Cornwell: Hitler, in fact, had two views on the churches — public and private. In February of 1933 he was to declare in the Reichstag that the churches were to be an integral part of German national life. Privately, the following month, he vowed to completely "eradicate” Christianity from Germany. "You are either a Christian or a German,” he said. “You cannot be both.” from John Cornwell, Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII], New York: Viking, 1999, pp. 105-106) ISBN 0670886939. However, historian Richard Steigmann-Gall, in his book The Holy Reich p.28 (see book review in external links section) says that Hitler said no such thing; the quote comes from a fraudulent primary source. - Drogo Underburrow 11:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for pointing me to the link. I will read it carefully.
• However, repeating this text does not help at all. I had read it, but the question is whether it is correct. Did St-G call the quote fraudulent? Or just the source? (I assume the latter) What did St-G actually say ("fraudulent" or more "treat it with caution"? Is that source he thinks "fraudulent" "Table Talk"? (In that case St-G's view is hardly universally accepted) Is Cornwell's quote taken from "Table Talk"? (Bytwerk seemed to contradict this above) Str1977 11:39, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Cornwell's quote comes from "Hitler Speaks" by Hermann Rauschning. Steigmann-Gall (p.29) says: "Hitler Speaks is now considered to be fraudulent" He also quotes Eckhard Jesse, who says that the conversations are "far-off fantasies". Steigmann-Gall notes that despite the "highly questionable" nature of this source, church historians in particular still use it. Yes, Bytwerk used it. Here's the thing...I don't care if Rausching is used. I only care if its stated as fact. That's what gets me, is that editors keep trying to write what is, rather than what sources say. NPOV is about presenting what sources say, and being neutral about who is correct. The wrong way is to try to state what is correct, and then footnote it. That isn't how its supposed to be done. Use Rausching if you want, but don't treat it as fact, and include Steigmann-Gall's opinion that its fraudulent. Right now, the article is saying a conclusion as fact, and using this material as source, and that is wrong, wrong, wrong. Drogo Underburrow 12:59, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The problem with Cornwell's citation, which is from Rauschning, is that he doesn't cite Rauschning, but rather someone who does cite Rauschning (without noting the original source). Since Rauschning is unreliable, he shouldn't be cited. Bytwerk 13:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

All right, if it is taken from Rauschnigg I will instantly remove it. I only gathered from above that it wasn't from "Table Talk", as Gio orignally claimed, and Gio was very inimical towards Table Talk. Rauschnigg is indeed fraudulent.

Drogo, please don't propagate unwarranted accusations - not only "church historians" (whatever that is) use it (see Cornwell's sloppy citation), while many church historian recject it just as much.

But anyway, thanks Drogo and thank Bytwerk for responding so quickly.

Str1977 14:07, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a scholar in the field, I have no idea who uses Rausching's material. What I said was that Steigmann-Gall notes that despite the "highly questionable" nature of this source, church historians in particular still use it. Complain to him, Str77, if you don't like what he says. Drogo Underburrow 14:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Than I do apologize. But I don't think St-G's call in this is very accurate. But we needn't concern ourselves with this issue. Str1977 14:42, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Restored religion section

Large chunks of this section were removed on the basis that they were non NPOV. The section was well written and sourced, but I guess the new editor perceives some pro-Rome bias. And the cheesy description of Hitler's mother as a fervent catholic is the first thing that gets put in by way of replacement. Tiresome Tiresome. Bring back EffK.--shtove 08:51, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

It proves, that every strong POV produces an equally strong counter POV. The matter could have been stopped a long time ago. Agathoclea 11:47, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Tell me - how stopped? I could do with a good laugh. Sob!--shtove 00:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

"he stopped going to mass" - nobody had a problem with that statement. The problem started with someone simultatiosly claiming that that statement implied he not a practising catholic, while claiming that it is not enaugh to imply that and that statement needs to be added. Agathoclea 07:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Nickname

A nickname for Hitler used by German soldiers was Gröfaz, a derogatory acronym for Größter Feldherr aller Zeiten ("Greatest War Lord of all Time"), a title initially publicized by Nazi propaganda after the surprisingly quick occupation of France.

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how this can be considered "derogatory", does the acronym word mean something in German? Clarification would be useful. --Black Butterfly 10:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

It is derogatory since the grand-style laudatory tone is abbreviated into a short word, souding rather funnily. It does not mean something which is part of the funniness. Str1977 11:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I could hear a "Fratz" in it :-) -- Agathoclea 07:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

State What Sources Say, Not What Is

I have to make a big deal over this, cause I don't see much attempt in this article to be NPOV. Ordinary encyclopedias simply tell you what is. Academic papers tell you what is, and footnote it. Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be like either of those. We have this wierd rule called NPOV, and it requires something you don't see other places. It requires that in writing about anything where there is more than one side, that we simply report what the sides say, being absolutely neutral about who is correct. There is another rule that says "No original research"; this means that even if you know what the truth is, you can't say it. All you are allowed to do is to tell people what a published source has said. Combine the two rules, and it boils down to almost never telling the reader what is, but always telling them what somebody says. Its wierd, and perhaps that's why editors seem to not do it. But its the rules here. Look it up: NPOV. Drogo Underburrow 14:09, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Removing "influenced by pan-german nationalism and social darwinism he began to reject the Church and Catholicism as an adolescent, according to his own accounts" - this is not a self-evident fact but needs a specific citation. Drogo Underburrow 12:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

This is already referenced. It is taken from Rissmann (see above), based on Hitler's own accounts. Have you any reference which contradicts this? Str1977 18:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

"After he had left home, he stopped attending mass and receiving sacraments altogether, thereby ceasing to be a practising Catholic" - This needs a specific quote in the footnotes where the author literally said that Hitler was not a practising Catholic, or used words to that effect. Drogo Underburrow 12:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

On the second point, I disagree completely. It's almost like saying that if we have a source saying that Prince Philip is married to Queen Elizabeth then we are allowed to say that he's married to her, but unless we also have a source where a published writer says that he's her husband, we can't say that he's her husband, because it would be original research to say that if a man is married to a woman he's her husband. I've already provided links showing definitions of "practising" (or "practicing") Catholic. If you want more, here's the definition of "practise" from the twenty-volume Oxford English Dictionary:

b. to practise religion : to perform the religious duties which the Church requires of its members; to be a practising and not merely a nominal member (esp. in R.C. Ch.).

The smaller (1083 pages) Oxford Dictionary of Current English (third edition, 2001) gives

5. follow the teaching and rules of (a religion).

In case there's any doubt, attending Mass on Sundays and Holy Days is one of the "religious duties which the Church requires of its members", and it is one of the "rules". It's not optional or even strongly recommended: it is obligatory. Need a citation? Look up the Precepts of the Church in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (sections 2041–2043). Attending Mass on Sundays and Holy Days is the first precept.

The original research, as I have said repeatedly, is on the part of those who are trying to redefine the established, traditional, normal meaning of "practising Catholic".

To clarify something about a comment Giovanni made, which has now been archived. I do not claim that if you're not fully practising, you're not practising at all. There can be a stage between being fully practising and completely lapsed — for example, when young adults leave home for the first time, and start missing Mass occasionally (a good football match on television, tired after the party last night, etc.) but go three weeks out of four, then go twice a month, then once a month, then finally not at all. What I am stating is that if you do not ever, ever, ever, ever, ever go to Mass or receive the sacraments as an adult, you cannot be a practising Catholic. Nor can you be a Catholic who "at least in this way" is not a "fully" practising Catholic.

It just seems very odd that people who happily put in what seem to be unsourced, POV, OR statements that Hitler received the sacraments "devoutly" as a child, or that his mother was a "fervent" Catholic have problems with the standard traditional meaning of "practising Catholic". AnnH ♫ 16:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I know you disagree. But Misplaced Pages policy disagrees with you. See Misplaced Pages:No_original_research#Example_of_a_new_synthesis_of_published_material_serving_to_advance_a_position.

As long as something is uncontended like your above mentioned marriage nobody will complain. But here you ARE presenting a point of view that is not shared by 99% of the population - therefore you are bound to stick to quotable facts. Agathoclea 16:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

May I add - on matters of faith it seems that even various bishops can't agree what is what (see communion without mass). You actually have proven the point with your insistance of adding the concluding statement. If "not attending mass" was sufficiantly clear to everyone you could have left just that and there would have been no need for editwaring over an unsourced conclusion. Agathoclea 17:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The Search for Common Ground: What Unites and Divides Catholic Americans by James D Davidson page 178: "Some insist you can be a good catholic without going to mass". Agathoclea 17:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

It is irrelevant what "some" think, even when they reside in Amerika. The Church insists on the obligation to attend Mass, and it is up to the Church to decide what to demand of her members. Str1977 18:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me reword that: "It is irrelevant that there is another POV, what I believe to be the case is the only way to word it" - I think that is what you are trying to tell us here. Agathoclea 19:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Not at all you are either misreading NPOV or don't understand Catholicism. But maybe you do understand a more "secular" example. If the law in a country states that people with income must pay income text, you cannot insist on including an alternative view saying "No, they only need to pay when they feel like, or only every third year, and they can chose how much", based on someone's opinion. Taxation doesn't work like this, neither does the Catholic Church. To reword your post: "It is írrelvant what the the facts are, if it goes against the POV I want to push." Str1977 20:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Good example. I have income ... I don't pay taxes (just for arguments sake). Does that mean that in my wikiarticle you can call me a taxevader? No - that would be judging the facts accourding to your POV. You could quote a business magazine that calls me a taxevader or make reference the taxoffice doing whatever they do in such circumstances. But I might just have legit reasons for not having to pay income-tax, despite having income. Or my accountant might be so good, that it is possible for me to "only need to pay when they I like, or only every third year, and they can chose how much". And I know this to be possible - I worked at the taxoffice - just a few month ago spoke to one of my old colleques there who was mighty annoyed at how the rich can get away without paying any taxes. To come back to the matter on hand ... Hitler was known not to pay any taxes on the royalties of "Mein Kampf" - a debt that was canceled when he came to office. -- Agathoclea 22:46, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I only gave a very rough account of the law (which is different from country to country) - if you don't pay because of the rules of taxation (notwithstanding the principle I wrote about), e.g. because your income is too little, or for this or that reason, you are not a tax evader - if you simply lie to the tax office, or don't bother, you are one. However, that changes neither the principle, nor the rules of taxation. You cannot make up you own rules of taxation like, say, I have an IQ of 190 and hence I am not obliged to pay taxes. If you are found out you are a tax evader nonetheless. Along the same lines, you cannot make up your rules of what constitutes a practicing Catholic or when you think it optional to attend Mass - there are conditions on which one needn't attend, basically if it is not possible - be it because of persecution, geographical distance (thinking of some congegrations in China), or due to illness. But it is up to the CHurch to lay down these rules, not to you or Hitler. Str1977 10:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

"Regarding the No original research link, a little essay-like paragraph where the editor comments on Harvard and Chicago manuals and inserts personal opinion is not the same as a standard, traditional, understanding of "practising Catholic". I very much doubt that one percent of the population would claim that if you never ever ever go to Mass or receive the sacraments you are still a practising Catholic. Nobody has come up with any suggestions of the ways in which he was a practising Catholic, just with some quotations from his speeches about being a Christian, etc. Nor has anybody argued that Hitler was such an admirable man that we know that anything he said in public would have been sincere. I don't know what you're arguing with the link from American Catholic. Nowhere does it mention a Bishop who says you can be a practising Catholic if you don't attend Mass when it would be possible for you to do so. Note that I have on a few occasions clarified by saying that you are excused if you live in a place where it would not be possible to attend Mass. (That's the whole point of the communion services mentioned in your link. It's not possible to have Mass within travelling distance, because of a severe shortage of priests, so they have communion services instead. That did not apply to Hitler.) The conclusion you refer to is not unsourced. And the quote from Davidson doesn't say "Some insist you can be a practising Catholic without ever going to Mass." AnnH ♫ 18:21, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, different universities have different understandings and policies on what constitutes plagiarism. There is no reputable definition of "practising Catholic" that would include someone who, while able to do so, never went to Mass. Give five hundred lapsed Catholics who never go to Mass a form to fill in where they tick a box saying whether or not they are "practising" Catholics, and I can promise that not one of them will be in doubt. AnnH ♫ 14:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Reasonable people have different opinions as to what it means to be a practising Catholic. Therefore, the statement needs a source, so we can say, "Scholar X wrote that Hitler was not a practising Catholic", which will then be a fact, Scholar X really did write this. Whenever you start trying to claim something is, and another editor disputes it, arguing your case is pointless. Misplaced Pages is not about presenting what is, its about presenting what valid secondary published sources say. The solution is to find a valid secondary source that makes the claim, then quote it. If this fact is indeed a fact, then it should be easy to find a valid secondary source which says it. Others are also free to find valid secondary sources which disagree, if they can find any. Do things the NPOV way, not the "state what is, and argue over it" way. -- Drogo Underburrow 13:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, I think you're starting to get a bit legalistic here. There is variation on what people consider to be a practising Catholic, but not that much. I don't think anyone here has turned up anything Hitler did that indicated he was a prctising Catholic; we've no indication that he went to confession or fasted on Fridays or prayed regularly. And of course many people would contend that one of the conditions for being a 'good Catholic' is not committing genocide. DJ Clayworth 13:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

"Reasonable people" may differ as to whether you're a practising Catholic if you attend Mass once every two or three weeks when there isn't an interesting programme on the television. I dispute that they would claim that you can be a "practising Catholic" (not just a Catholic but a practising Catholic), if you don't ever go to Mass. Praying regularly (even if he did) doesn't make you a practising Catholic. Many non-Catholics pray regularly. And I'm afraid there are some practising Catholics who only pray when they go to Mass on Sundays. AnnH ♫ 13:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't be that hard to find a source that says "Hitler was not a practising Catholic" if its true, right? One of the keys to writing good encyclopedia articles is to understand that they should refer only to facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by reputable publishers. - from WP:VERIFY. For crying out loud, the policy is clear. Why are we even discussing this? Quote a valid source, correctly, properly, one that really says this, literally, no games. Should be very easy, much easier than arguing at length on the talk page why you don't need a source. If you have to argue that you don't need a source, it means that you need one. -- -Drogo Underburrow 14:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I isn't hard as it is already there, albeit not yet translated into English. I will translate it before the night is through. Above it says based on Kubizek, Hitler's best friend in his Vienna years, that "anything ecclesisiastical was foreign to him". And thus far neither you, Drogo, or anyone else has provided any element which might suggest that Hitler practised the Catholic faith in any way. Str1977 18:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to be petty, and I realize any good editor can make a sloppy edit from time to time, but you really are starting to sound as if you are the authority on NPOV and NOR, etc., having to explain these policies to other editors who are either ignorant or in bad faith. So could you please explain the edit in which you said the Hitler's mother was a fervent Catholic? If you had a reliable source saying that she went to daily Mass, read the Bible for half an hour a day, said fifteen decades of the Rosary each day, wore lots of scapulars, went to weekly confession, fasted well beyond the actual requirements of the Church etc., I'd allow "fervent Catholic"; I wouldn't argue that we need another source that actually used those words about Klara Hitler. You didn't have any such sources, as far as I can see, but yet you made that edit. And both before and after that edit, you continually made remarks about how the other side was out of line with Misplaced Pages policies. We are allowed to use our own words, to let the prose style flow naturally, rather than having a series of individual quotations joined together. If Klara went to three Masses a day, carried out great penances, fasted rigourously, said three rosaries a day, and carried her Bible everywhere (which she didn't), then she was a fervent Catholic, regardless of whether or not a source actually uses those words. If Adolf never went to Mass as an adult, he was not a practising Catholic, regardless of whether or not a source actually uses those words. AnnH ♫ 14:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I no longer have access to the references, so I can't quote them. I used to, and it's in my memory that she was, and I think Smith in particular talks about it, but I believe that most detailed sources do as well. It is one of the few things known about her. It is really easy to verify, and if you have done some reading about Hitler, I'm surprised you haven't come across it yourself. If I had access, I'd give you the exact pages, but since I don't, I've had to accept it being deleted or watered down. Drogo Underburrow 16:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

If you don't have the references anymore than reclaim them and quote. According to my references, Klara was not in any way more "devout" than any other woman in Braunau or wherever the family stayed at a time. Given the fact that she was Alois' girlfriend when his 2nd wife was still alive (parallel with the woman who Alois' 3rd wife - Klara would become #4), it seems more likely that she was even less devout. Granted, this is no hard proof - she might have been deeply remorseful about all this and said the Rosary thrice a day as penance - only we have absolutely no evidence for this. But if you accept the insertion of "practicing" I won't bother you anymore about this, Drogo. Str1977 18:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, it irked me so to be challenged on the issue of Klara's piety, that I took care of some matters and got ahold of a copy of Smith's book (which is not so easy to get) and some other sources, including Ian Kershaw's biography of Hitler. Smith's work is dated, but he is frequently used as a source by Ian Kershaw. Kershaw says in his biographical work Hitler: 1889-1936 Hubris (p.12) that Klara was "a pious churchgoer". Its statements like this one, which I assumed that AnnH has read, that made me express surprise that she hadn't come across this sort of statement before. Kershaw does not say where he got his information, there is no footnote. Smith (p.42) himself says that Klara was, quote, "completely devoted to the faith and teachings of Catholicism". Now, one who is devoted to something, is "devout", and my memory was correct. In fact, putting the two sources together, we can now say that in the opinion of these leading historians, Hitler's mother was a "pious churchgoer completely devoted to the faith and teachings of the Catholic Church". -- Drogo Underburrow 20:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

All right. But I don't think that this warrants calling her "devout", certainly not "fervent". "devoted" to certain beliefs is not the same as "devout", which is more something about practice. But anyway, I think devout definetely overused ... and don't think there's any harm in calling her just what is clear, that she was a practicing Catholic. You probably agree that it'd be overdoing things if we included a passage like, some call her devout, some merely practicing. Cheers, Str1977 20:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

If you feel it improper to call her devout, I have no objection...as long as you agree to the inclusion of statements that in the opinion of Smith, she was devout. -- Drogo Underburrow 20:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I grant you that Smith has that opinion. But I don't know how to balance this with contradicting information. We certainly should not "report the controversy" in this article. A basis for this anyway would be thorough information about how Klara's (religious) life actually looked like. But I have neither the time nor the interest for that. Str1977 10:45, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Make my case on talk page

Gio has demanded that I make my case on talk page (though he hasn't bothered making one himself):

• "Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian heritage of German culture and his own Christianity, which appealed ..."

This sneaks in a factual assertion that Hitler was a Christian - as the whole section shows, it was much more complicated. Hence it was problematic, but I will not remove it again, but reword it.

• I revert the deletion of Hitler's never officially leaving the Church placed in context.
• "The collection called validity of the heresay sourceTable Talk ..." is not only ghibberish but inaccurate and POV pushing in the most extreme of ways. TT is not a hearsay source - it was written down by two adjutants of Bormann after they had dined with Hitler - they could not take notes during the dinner, of course, and only wrote down from memory after having returned to their place, so the probably don't contain the talk verbatim. Albert Speer said the text straigthened out and elevated Hitler's language but the content was accurate. Apart from these observations, historians use it, albeit with caution, so no need to included unwarranted, POV-driven disclaimers.
• I moved the "No matter ..." quote up, since it said the same thing as that paragraph above (... far from being irreligious). The quote supports this statement and we shouldn't be repeated the same stuff all through the section.
• Another double is the paragraph beginning "Although he accused organized Christianity ..." - we have mentioned all this before and hence I included some wordings further up and deleted the rest.
• the spelling and capitalization "God" implies that this god is the same as God in whom Christians believe. Which is POV, hence the change to "this god".
• Hitler demonstrated a preference for the Protestant church, but he did so for a reason. It was not the Lutheran doctrine of justification. Hence the addition stays.
• "Despite his rejection of the Catholic Church ..." adds no new information but connects the last paragraph to the rest of the title. It is needed to create cohesion.

Str1977 18:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

You object to the POV of spelling "God" instead of "god". Have you got any sources that Hitler shared your POV?. -- Agathoclea 19:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said in the context of the sentence God is pushing POV. Str1977 10:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo added a paragraph which contains info already mentioned elsewhere, hence I move it to the talk page:

"Although he accused organized Christianity of being Jewish and Bolshevik, Hitler carefully exempted Jesus from his attacks. According to Hitler, Christ’s teachings could be separated from what was later called Christianity. Hitler's belief was that the ideas of Christ were different from the ideas of the churches. Hitler was remorseful that the churches had failed to back him and his movement as he had hoped, but he put limits on his apostasy. Hitler never formally or publicly left the church."

Compare the existing passages:

• Hitler advocated what he termed Positive Christianity, purged of everything that Hitler found objectionable. Hitler never directed his attacks on Jesus himself, but viewed traditional Christianity as a corruption of the original ideas of Jesus, who Hitler thought of as an Aryan opponent of the Jews. In 1927 he said: "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter." ...

• ... According to Steigmann-Gall, Hitler was remorseful that "the churches had failed to back him and his movement as he had hoped.", stating according to Albert Speer: "Through me the Protestant Church could become the established church, as in England”.

If you insist on including your wordings, or see info that's missing in the existing paragraphs then do discuss this and try to integrate it into the existing text. Thanks. Str1977 13:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

And one more time, you have done it. Include some stuff already covered as a new paragraph instead of integrating it into the text. Please don't do this. Str1977 13:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Goebbels quote from Steigmann-Gall

If you are going to use the Goebbels quote from Steigmann-Gall, his statement that Hitler meant Catholism and not Christianity must also be used, otherwise we are guilty of lifting the quote out of context from Steigmann-Gall's book. Also the footnote needs to be moved to the sentence it references. - Drogo Underburrow 12:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

"Hitler's own religious views underwent significant change in the latter half of the Third Reich. He gave up on the Protestant Church after three failed attempts to achieve unity within its ranks. It is only in the period after this failure that we begin to see some of the anti-Christian remarks for which he is so famous....In December 1939, for example, Goebbels noted in his diary that "The Führer is deeply religious, but entirely anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." As unambiguous as this statement appears, it raises an important question. What was Hitler's religion by this time if not Christianity? Had Hitler converted to Himmler's paganism? Just the day before, Goebbels wrote: "The Führer rejects any thought of founding a religion. He does not want to become a Buddha." On the one hand, Hitler professed to reject Christianity: On the other, he was still religious and adamantly opposed to a replacement faith. Ir could be that Hitler was no closer to finding a religious home than he had been all those years before in conversation with Ludwig Müller: But it is also possible that he meant "Catholicism" when saying "Christianity". - Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich, p.252-3

It is POV to take the Goebbels quote out of the context of this argument, and use it by itself to make your own point about what Hitler was thinking. If you do that, you are expressing your own views, not Steigmann-Gall's. -- Drogo Underburrow 14:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. That's an interesting passage and worth including, but the final sentence is unacceptable speculation. By the same token, it's also possible that Hitler/Goebbels meant eastern orthodox/quaker/celtic christianity etc. Plus "entirely anti-Christian" is as plain as a pikestaff - it is really poor form to load the phrase with a significance that the plain words do not bear, and to do so with the weasel words "it is also possible". Plus, the final sentence leaves some doubt as to whether "he" refers to Hitler's original comment or Goebbel's reporting of the same.--shtove 16:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The final sentence is the point of the paragraph, and its not for us to decide if its acceptable or unacceptable; it's Steigmann-Gall's argument, and NPOV calls for telling the reader what valid sources argue. Don't bother to debate whether Steigmann-Gall is right or not, or whether his speculation is warranted or not. He did say it, and he is a valid source, and that is all that matters. You arn't being neutral when you start picking and choosing what valid sources can say or not say. Drogo Underburrow 12:46, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The final sentence contains no fact. The point of the paragraph is to show that Hitler's profession of his religious beliefs was vague and unfocused.--shtove 19:46, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The fact is that Steigmann-Gall is asserting it. That he says it, is a fact. What he is saying, is his opinion. NPOV and WP:VERIFY are about stating what sources say, their opinions. You are confusing what is, with what sources opine. Its our job to state what the sources opine, not what is. Drogo Underburrow 20:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

He's not asserting anything in the final sentence - he's speculating! Assertion requires a foundation in fact - speculation only requires you to tap your heels together three times and say, What If? It doesn't amount to an opinion. No doubt this is a difficult article, because so many have written so disparately on the subject and - regrettably in many cases - published with an ISBN. You're right about stating what sources say, but this applies only to fact and fact-based opinion - otherwise you end up with any number of fancies/prejudices introduced with the weasel words "X/some/many believe/guess/reckon(s)that..." A WP editor may make no original contribution, but must in the editing process be allowed reasoned discretion in sifting fact from speculation. And I think this discretion also extends to drawing from the sourced facts inferences that are necessary.--shtove 19:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, Steigmann-Gall is citing Goebbels' diaries, then commenting on them. Cite the diaries rather than Steigmann-Gall in this case, perhaps?Bytwerk 20:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't care if Steigmann-Gall is howling at the moon; if he does, I'll report on his baying, if its published. You both need to get on the NPOV bandwagon. Its not a negotiable policy. Steigmann-Gall is a noted source; therefore its proper to report what he says, wether you think its true or false. I'm going to repeat over and over until people stop contradicting it, that editors are supposed to present only facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by peer-reviewed secondary sources. It is not ok in Misplaced Pages, unlike in academia, to engage in original research, and take information from a primary source like Goebbels, then present conclusions from it, or use it to support ideas. - Drogo Underburrow 00:34, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the problem then becomes interminable articles, since one can generally find a source of at least some repute who says almost anything about Hitler. So when we have Hitler talking about his religious views, should we add someone who says that he lied a lot in public? No problem finding sources to say that. And of course, there are often more than two sides. The section has now expanded until it significantly exceeds the space given to World War II, because every time someone adds something, someone else adds something else. The section now, I think, says more about Hitler and religion than Ian Kershaw's two-volume biography....

And, if you will review the "no original research" page, you will note that it specifically recommends the use of published primary sources. As that page says: "Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Misplaced Pages should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not 'original research'; it is 'source-based research', and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia." Bytwerk 01:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Read further on the page. It explains: In order to avoid doing original research, and in order to help improve the quality of Misplaced Pages articles, it is essential that any primary-source material, as well as any generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data, has been published by a reputable third-party publication (that is, not self-published) that is available to readers either from a website (other than Misplaced Pages) or through a public library. So again, if you are going to make comments based on Goebbels diary, those comments have to have been already published somewhere. Its not acceptable for editors to draw their own conclusions. Drogo Underburrow 01:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Visit a library. The Goebbels diaries are published. 24 volumes last I looked. Or a 5 volume condensed edition. The publisher happens to be reputable. Bytwerk 01:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you feigning to not understand? Yes, the diaries are published. However, using the diaries to make or illustrate an original point is not allowed. Drogo Underburrow 03:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

First, you say: "editors are supposed to present only facts, assertions, theories, ideas, claims, opinions, and arguments that have already been published by peer-reviewed secondary sources." I then cite the NOS section that encourages editors to use printed primary sources. Next you assert that if one makes comments based on a primary source like Goebbels diaries, those comments have to have been published somewhere else. If that is the case, it would be peculiar for Misplaced Pages to encourage the use of printed primary sources, since they could be used only if one then found a secondary source that quoted the exact passage, and apparently said something about it.

In this case, Goebbels is expressing his opinion, based on his conversations with Hitler. To suggest that Hitler and the Nazis had difficulties with the Church or Christianity is not a "novel narrative or historical interpretation." It is, in fact, the most common interpretation. As the introductory comment to Steigmann-Gall's book notes, for example, his book "argues against the consensus that Nazism as a whole was either unrelated to Christianity or actively opposed to it."

Now, maybe I'm not understanding, but I'm not feigning not to understand, I'm going by what seems to me the import of the policy. Perhaps someone with more experience could help D-U and me out by commenting on the matter? Bytwerk 11:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

You are selecting out the one portion of material on the policy page that seems to make your case, and ignoring the rest of it where its explained and clarified, which is why I asked if you were feigning to not understand. I'll sum things up again. First of all, the No Original Research (NOR) policy in a nutshell:

Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas that serves to advance a position.

Now, yes, primary sources may be used in articles...if they have been published. But it is not allowed to make comments or conclusions based on those sources, that have not been published. There is no contradiction here. Quoting Goebbels from a published source is fine. Saying anything about that quote is not allowed...unless it too has already been published; in which case, it can be used and should be cited so the reader can verify it. When I said the use of secondary sources was required I was refering to the guidelines page where it says that. I agree that at times using a published primary source is permissible. Are we agreed now? Drogo Underburrow 14:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

There is no question, Drogo, that the final sentence could be included as the opinion of St-G on the Goebbels quote. However, in St-G's text it looks like a speculation of might be, so including it as St-G's opinion might overstate (and hence misrepresent) him. Also, it definitely casts bad light on all of St-G's scholarship - quite unfairly I suppose. Str1977 14:51, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Heiden should be removed

I've posted this before but it hasn't been removed. There is no verifiable evidence that these statements were made, or at least in the article. (Heiden 1937) tells us nothing and it would be nice if the original contributor told us where these statements were from. Furthermore quotes such as "His commander at the time said, "I will never promote this hysteric!" (cited from Heiden, 1937)" makes me question for what reasons they were included in the first place. Volksgeist 20:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Pan-German Nationalism

Removed "influenced by pan-german nationalism and social darwinism he began to reject the Church and Catholicism as an adolescent, according to his own accounts" - before, and will do it again; this is not a self-evident fact but needs a specific citation. "according to his own accounts" is not a valid source; if Hitler said this, then we need to know exactly what he said and where and when. Drogo Underburrow 12:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed mentioned in Rissmann's book but it is not his discovery or his research. It is included in one of the early chapters, which give an overview of what scholarships has been able to find out. So it wouldn't be right to say "according to Rissmann" (while it is all right to put him into the reference, since I take it from his books). Do you have any scholar who contradicts this? If not, there is no controversy and no need for a disclaimer. Please reconsider whether NPOV demands that every sentence begings with "X says" or "according to Y". If it does, WP is not following this precept. Str1977 11:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

BTW. Why post "citattion needed", when there is a citation present, only separted from the text by your breaking up the paragraph. Also "No sources discuss Hitler's taking the sacraments" is clearly in the wrong: he was baptized (which is a sacrament), he was confirmed (another sacrament) unwillingly (see the quoted text and translation above) and at that day at latest received the Eucharist (another sacrament) and before that had to go to confession (another sacrament) - so we have evidence for his receiving four sacraments, while it is clear that he did not receive the other three (marriage, holy orders, last rites). What more would you want? Str1977 11:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

We need to be correct in what we claim secondary sources say. If Rissmann doesn't assert what is said, we need to say what he does say. It is wrong to state as fact matters of opinion that is asserted by secondary sources, removing the attribution to them. I don't care if most of Misplaced Pages does things the wrong way, for example, as does Golden Party Badge. What secondary sources say in matters of opinion is still their opinion, even if nobody else has a different one. Finally, I do not recall that any of the books that I have read on Hitler's youth say anything about his receiving the sacraments, not even as a child; it seems to me to be original research to write that he did receive them. Drogo Underburrow 17:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding negative, that explains a lot of your recent editing and commenting here. I don't think you have understood the NPOV policy. Str1977 12:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand it quite well. Why don't you tell me how you think I'm wrong. Drogo Underburrow 12:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Drogo, I will try:

The policy promoting Verifiability and the one against OR requires that all info should be sourced by a reference, except for the really obvious things. It doesn't require us to start every sentence with a "X states ...".

The NPOV policy requires WP not to decide between one view and another, not to take sides (with all due respect to how greatly a POV is held or rejected). However, when there is no dispute about a certain topic - among serious experts - I don't think we should have to start all sentences with a not who said it (which still should be included as a reference in the footnote.

Now, if there is disagreement on the content I have posted it should be prefaced by who holds such a view (e.g. Rissmann - or whoever - says ..), but if there is no disagreement, no dispute I consider the prefacing bloating. If you can show out to me that other serious (!) authors contradict what I put in, then I will not object to such a disclaimer. But honestly I cannot see where any serious historian disputes what I wrote about stopping to attend mass etc. or his rejection of Catholicism as a pupil.

The political religion bit, to wrap things up, is already disclaimed, as it says "some ..." - we could add "while others doubt the usefulness of such a category" - my reference gives a discussion of the issue, not an endorsement. Rissmann actually rejects the characterisation given by Voegelin (who is the originator of the term).

Str1977 14:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Part of good academic writing is knowing when to say "X said", and when not to. When there is no dispute about something, then it's not only unnecessary; it's actually unscholarly to keep doing so. AnnH ♫ 20:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I"m not insisting that every sentence start with "X said" or that non-controversial passages be footnoted, so both of you are barking up the wrong tree. I am questioning though, whether Pan-Germanism had much to do with Hitler's attitudes on religion. For example, Bradley Smith, "Adolf Hitler: His Family, Childhood and Youth'' p.84 says that the Los von Rom movement made little impression on young Hitler. So once again, I'm asking for specific, detailed citation on the passage, with page numbers and direct quotes, explaining who is arguing what is put in the article, so that its perfectly clear who is saying what. -- Drogo Underburrow 22:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Pomp and Circumstance

Hitler admired the pomp of Catholic ritual and the hierarchical organisation of the clergy. Later, he drew on these elements, organizing his party along hierarchical lines and including liturgical forms into events or using phraseology taken from hymns. Because of these liturgical elements, Hitler's Messiah-like status and the ideology's all-encompassing nature, the Nazi movement is sometimes termed a "political religion". - These sentences need to explicitly give sources so we know who is making these claims. These are not facts. What is the basis for stating as a fact that Hitler admired the pomp of Catholic ritual? Next, stating that he drew on these elements is definately someone's opinion: whose? Who says that the Nazi movement is sometimes termed a political religion? Who says that Hitler had Messiah-like status? Drogo Underburrow 13:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd have no problem if you wanted to remove that paragraph. DJ Clayworth 19:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not too difficult to find support on those questions. There is recently Hans Maier, "'Totalitarismus'und 'politische Religionen': Konzepte des Diktaturvergleichs" (Paderborn, Ferdinand Schöningh, 1996-2004). Göring wrote in 1941: "We National Socialists declare with complete conviction that for us, the Führer is infallible in all political and other matters that affect the people's national health and social interests." There were thousands of poems to Hitler resembling Christian hymns (e.g,: "There are so many people who bless you / Even if their blessing is a silent one — / There are so many who have never met you, And yet you are their Saviour. / And when you speak to your Geman people,/ The words go across the land / And sink into countless hearts, / Hearts in which your image long has stood. / Sometimes the vision of you brings life / To those in the midst of hard labor and heavy obligation . . . / So many are devoted to you / And seek in your spirit a clear light." Or as a book of praise of Hitler published by the Nazis in 1941 put it: "Our Führer is the most unique man in history. I believe unreservedly in him and in his movement. He is my religion." Bytwerk 11:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

This information belongs in the article either as footnotes or as text. The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources, and those sources need to be cited. -- Drogo Underburrow 17:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Hitlers mention at Göring article

smells of sneaky vandalizm. Can anybody check the facts? Agathoclea 22:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where to look. But take a look at Golden Party Badge - no references, no sources, no footnotes, no talk page. We supposed to take everything on faith? This is the ultimate example of editors with no clue that Misplaced Pages is supposed to be about telling what published sources say, and citing those sources, not editors telling what is. -- Drogo Underburrow 23:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems all right to me. Göring was very much fishing for decorations and titles, down to being "Reichsjägermeister" (chief hunter of the realm), while Hitler always was simple in his appearances and after the beginning of the war only wore the simple Wehrmacht uniform with his Iron Cross. But that is nothing new: rulers often were the ones dressing simply, while their servants wore pompous uniforms. my great grandmother as a child confused the Emperor Francis Joseph with his carriage driver because the Emperor wore a simple blue uniform, while the carriage driver was decorated with a feather on his hat etc. Str1977 10:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Hitler's Middle Name

His middle name was "Elizabeth." Despite its femminity, it is probably because of his ancestral relationship to Queen Elizabeth.

Table Talk again

Could you please stop inserting the totally inaccurate and POV motivated statement that Hitler's Table Talk is a) "an exclusively hearsay compilation of private conversations" (it is not, as I have explained before, regardless of some concerns) and it is neither b) "where virtually all Hitler's anti-Christian quotes come from" - there are other sources for such comments, such as Speer, Goebbels etc., not counting the fraudulent Rauschnigg. Str1977 13:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Ian Kershaw says that Table Talk must be 'treated with due caution'; show me where he uses it in his biography of Hitler. You arn't using it with caution; you are using it without informing the reader of its questionable nature, and boldly. Drogo Underburrow 13:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)::Let me amend that...I don't see it used in your latest edit. Drogo Underburrow 13:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not using it at all. In my contributions here I am leaving the "Quellenkritik" bit to the people I (and others) quote. Of course, we should be cautios. However, what I oppose utterly is the inclusion of disclaimers which bascially say "don't worry about anti-Christian statements by Hitler - they call come from a worthless source" - when the soure is neither worthless (and it is, despite all problems, neither worthless nor hearsay) nor it is the source of all anti-Christian statements. Str1977 13:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Totalitarian

And again Gio has struck, changing the consensus "authoritarian" to "fascist" - I never was completely happy with authoritarian, as it is a bit weak for Hitler's remige and hence have always preferred "totalitarian", despite the controversy the term sparks (which should be covered on the wikilinked page). However, I can live with either word, as they are descriptive terms, talking about some characteristics of Hitler's regime. "Fascist" on the other hand is merely labelling him politically, using a misused political label, but tells us nothing about the character of Hitler's rule. I reverted to the T word, but don't mind reverting to the A word again. But not the F word, ever! Str1977 13:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Not true. I never changed the consensus "authoritarian" to "fasicst." I only changed the hightly contentious and loaded theory of "totalitarism" to the completely accurate, useful and descriptive "fascist regime." I was never completely happy with authoritian either, as it is a bit weat for Hitler's regime and hence I preferred the more precise "fascist,' despite that there is a tiny minority that feels that it only applies to the Italian model (really a fringe within academia). However, I can live with either word (authoritian or fascist), as they are descriptive terms for Hitler's regime and the nature of its system of reactionary control. "Totalitarianism" on the other hand is merely politically labeling based on a highly disputed organic theory of the state that tells us nothing about the real workings of Hiter's rule. I reverted to the F word, but I dont mind reverting to the A word. But the T word, never!Giovanni33 02:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Hitler's Catholic upbringing

He began to reject the Church and Catholicism as an adolescent. Where does it say this literally? Please give the exact words and page number.

"After he had left home, he stopped attending mass and receiving sacraments altogether, thereby ceasing to be a practising Catholic." Same here. Is this said literally, or are you interpreting it to mean this? Please give the exact words and page number, in German if need be.

Also, in the guidelines on using sources, it says to use English sources whenever possible, in fairness to English speaking readers who want to look up material. Drogo Underburrow 17:27, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

1. Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich p. 260
2. Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich, Cambridge University Press, 2003, p. 219; In this context belong the quote: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." cited by John Toland, Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507 ISBN 0385420536.
3. Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich, Cambridge University Press, 2003, p. 257, 260
4. Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich p. 260
5. Cited in Norman H. Baynes, The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20 ISBN 0598758933.
6. Steigmann-Gall, p.260

• Delisted good articles
• Misplaced Pages featured article candidates (contested)
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Unassessed politics articles
• Unknown-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles