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If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Sleigh Bells discography (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Fezmar9 (talk · contribs)
• Erpert (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Erpert recently created the article Sleigh Bells discography. I noticed a number of small issues, including that some of the songs he listed as singles were not, in fact, released as singles (i.e., a type of musical release that can be purchased or obtained independent of the parent album). For the duration the argument, Erpert has maintained that music videos and singles are one and time same. I disagree and maintain (which is consistent with what the Song and Discography Projects believe) singles and music videos are two separate entities. While singles can have a corresponding music video for promotional or artistic purposes, a single can also exist without a music video, and likewise, a music video can exist without there being a single for the same song. On multiple occasions I have asked Erpert to provide any sort of evidence to support the songs he is calling singles have actually been released as singles, but instead he insists he has already provided this evidence, and that I should provide evidence to support music videos and singles are different things.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A third opinion was requested, but the arguing seemed to get worse after someone commented. Erpert did not want to participate in the third opinion's solution of illustrating both of our positions with a list. I also reached out to two WikiProjects (Songs and Discographies) and a response from Michig supports my view, but Erpert still wants to see some sort of source supporting the idea that singles and music videos are two different things.

How do you think we can help?

I'm not really sure what to say here, I just really want this long-winded argument over something so trivial to finally be put to rest. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's much of a middle ground here. Either a song was released as a single or it wasn't. I guess just evaluate both of our arguments and go from there?

Opening comments by Erpert

The overview that Fezmar stated is so unbalanced. The talk page in question clearly shows that I have explained each of my actions every time more than once, so I'm not going to do that again here. What I will say is the same simple solution I gave Fezmar: if he (or anyone else) thinks a music video and a single are not the same thing, find a source that says so. And his stating that the music video and single (music) articles don't back up my claim is inaccurate. It's not that they don't say the two terms aren't the same; they don't mention them (in other words, there's no argument either way). There's a difference. Basically, the way I see it is, Fezmar is forum shopping because he doesn't like the way the third opinion came out, which is really disruptive (and yes, I'll admit that I said canvassing at first; I meant forum shopping). Erpert 01:56, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Sleigh Bells discography discussion

Hello! I'm a DRN volunteer and I would like to point out that the status of any particular release should be properly sources. If the sources say it is a single, then it should get reported as single. I would also ask parties to be more exact on disputed content – diffs and quotes are very welcome. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 10:23, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

On September 13, Erpert created the article for Sleigh Bells discography. Later in the day I performed a series of edits to clean up the article, all of which had detailed edit summaries: , , , , . All of these edits, I thought, were fairly unobjectionable from what I've experienced in 5+ years of editing music related articles such as discographies and albums. Erpert's following edit reverted the majority of my edits (a comparison of the article before and after my edits shows he only accepted my addition of two music videos) and this is what started the talk page discussion. Most of the other issues were more or less resolved, but the singles issue still remained. I have been requesting that sources be provided to support that some of these songs were truly released as singles throughout most of the discussion, even going so far as to place citation needed tags on the article where I thought they were necessary, but they were quickly removed with either no edit summary or "see talk page" though no sources exist on the talk page, nor was removing the tags discussed on the talk page. Starting with Erpert's opening comment he has been insisting that he has already provided sources, and that there's no reason for the discussion to continue. At first I was really confused by this since there's not one source in the "Singles" section of the article, nor are there any on the talk page. Through the discussion it was apparent that Erpert was under the impression the sources in the "Music videos" section constituted as evidence of a single. However, this is not the case. Music videos are promotional tools often associated with songs that have been released as singles, but are not singles themselves and can often be filmed for songs that were never released as a single. So then the discussion turned into an argument about the difference between a music video and a single, with Erpert saying things like, "there still has been no source provided that differentiates between music video and single." I had trouble with this discussion because I couldn't really find anywhere on wikipedia where it explicitly states these are two different things to support my argument. I also couldn't really fathom why wikipedia would or should have this written somewhere for the same reason I don't think apples and oranges need to be explicitly differentiated. I reached out to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Discographies for some support requesting either someone link me to a previous consensus of singles being different from music videos or inviting someone to join the discussion. An editor responded with a definition of singles and music videos that was consistent with what I had been arguing all along. Also, since opening this DRN, an IP joined the discussion and provided a link to an old discussion. As I note in my reply, while the subject of the old discussion isn't relevant, a lot of what the editors say and how they define a single does show evidence that music videos and singles are not the same thing. Fezmar9 (talk) 12:30, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Question to Erpert: as the statement that "music video" and "single" are synonymous terms sounds rather counter-intuitive and is already challenged, could you please provide sources supporting your position? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 15:57, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm really getting tired of repeating myself (to Fezmar, not to the rest of you), but...basically, all I really said is that if people think a music video does not automatically denote a single, all that has to be done is for someone to add a source stating so. And the fact that Fezmar says "I had trouble with this discussion because I couldn't really find anywhere on wikipedia where it explicitly states these are two different things to support my argument" pretty much drives that point home (btw, "I also couldn't really fathom why wikipedia would or should have this written somewhere for the same reason I don't think apples and oranges need to be explicitly differentiated" is a ridiculous comparison). The problem I'm really having here is that Fezmar didn't like the response from the third opinion, so he asked for more opinions on different noticeboards. And the fact that he has been working on discography-oriented articles for 5+ years is irrelevant, but speaking of that, after being here all this time, I would think he'd know well enough that forum shopping isn't cool. And then he says I'm being disruptive? Erpert 23:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Forum shopping is defined as "raising essentially the same issue on multiple noticeboards, or to multiple administrators" because I didn't like the response from one, so I went to another. I have only raised this issue with DRN. I also invited two WikiProjects to either weigh in or direct me to a previous consensus. An IP directed me to a previous consensus, and an editor at WP:DISCOGS weighed in in support of music videos and singles being different things. The issue was raised at WP:3O by Erpert. The editor who contributed a third opinion stated: "A single needs to have been published independently to the general public, and in my mind, needs to have been marketed as a separate product in some capacity. I don't know if we necessarily need a source to declare that it was a single, but if none at all can be located, then that is a very good hint that it was not a single in any meaningful sense." This opinion does not claim nor suggest that music videos are one and the same. Then the third opinion suggested: "Maybe it would help if you both made a list of each disputed track, the nature of its release, and any sources to back up the claims (if they exist)." I started this list on the talk page, but Erpert refused to participate. I didn't open up a DRN because other forums weren't supporting my idea, I opened up a DRN because other forums were supporting my idea and because Erpert refused to participate in the third opinion's resolution proposal and the argument could have gone on forever with our back-and-forth. Thus my behavior is far from forum shopping. If anyone is shopping, Erpert, it's you as you have been policy shopping. In the duration of this discussion I have been wrongly accused of refusing or failing to to adhere to an established consensus, holding a personal grudge, disruptively editing Misplaced Pages to prove a point, inappropriate canvassing, not liking one opinion and shopping for another, not assuming good faith, calling Erpert disruptive when I was allegedly being disruptive and trying to win, and not letting the argument go in a completely irrelevant discussion. Erpert, you seem to be spending most of your time coming up with a new theory as to why my argument is invalid, when you should be spending your time coming up with evidence to support your argument. Fezmar9 (talk) 00:29, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Does it say forum shopping is limited to those two examples though? Anyway, you know very well why I didn't participate in the list, so stop acting like you don't. BTW, are you familiar with the term "talking loud but not saying nothin'"? You seem to be doing that, not to mention following a lot of WP:TLDR. You go on and on along this rant, yet you have failed to say what exactly is wrong with my simple suggestion: providing a source stating that a music video does not automatically equal a single. This discussion should have been resolved weeks ago, but for some bizarre reason you just keep holding on. Why are you so invested in this? For the love of God, chill out. (I haven't even touched the article in weeks.) Erpert 07:35, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

"Single" =/= "music video". A single is something you can buy, for which a music video often acts as a promotional device for. There are countless examples I can give of singles released after the advent of MTV that don't have videos, and videos made for non-singles. For example, Nirvana's "All Apologies" was definitely a single, but no music video for it was made. Pearl Jam pointedly refused to make music videos for its singles for years. Conversely, during its indie label years R.E.M. made videos for several non-singles, including "Wolves, Lower", "Feeling Gravitys Pull", and "Life and How to Live It". In the case of Reckoning, they made a short film called Left of Reckoning to soundtrack its entire first half. Sonic Youth had videos made for every track off its 1990 album Goo, but that album only yielded three singles. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:32, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

• But where's the source that says "single" =/= "music video"? Isn't that a simple request? Erpert 18:10, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

• Not really, because that presumes that someone at some point found a reason to explicitly state "A music video is not a single", which like is saying "a poster ad is not a TV episode". It's somewhat of a ridiculous thing to say. I can provide sources that establish certain albums only yielded certain singles even if videos for made for album tracks, definitely (R.E.M. is the easiest to do right off the cuff, as one biography I own has a list of all their singles up to 2001, and "Wolves, Lower", "Feeling Gravitys Pull", and "Life and How to Live It" definitely are not included). As someone who's worked in various aspects of the music industry, I can tell you a music video is not automatically a single, but of course I don't count as a citeable source. But they are definitely not synonymous concepts, and anyone who thinks so is misinformed. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

User:Erpert, this falls under Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories which states: "Misplaced Pages summarizes significant opinions, with representation in proportion to their prominence. A Misplaced Pages article about a fringe view (or organization) should not make it appear more notable than it is. Claims must be based upon independent reliable sources. A theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea, and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner."

The fact is, you have made a claim that Music videos count as a single. They do not and I am unfamiliar with this interpretation. A Single (music) is described as: "a type of release, typically a recording of fewer tracks than an LP record or an album. This can be released for sale to the public in a variety of different formats. In most cases, the single is a song that is released separately from an album, but it usually appears on an album. Often, these are the most popular songs from albums that are released separately for promotional uses such as commercial radio airplay, and in other cases a recording released as a single does not appear on an album."

A Release (music) is: "In the music industry, a release is usually a term referring to the creative output from an artist available for sale or distribution; a broad term covering the many different formats music can be released in, and different forms of pieces (singles, albums, extended plays, etc.).".

This apears to be original research and not supported by mainstream academic sources. You are also beginning to skate on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

• If you are honestly accusing me of WP:IDHT, then you must have missed the entire discussion on the original talk page. Anyway, your saying " do not and I am unfamiliar with this interpretation" reeks of WP:IDONTKNOWIT, which isn't necessarily a valid reason to challenge something. On the discography article where I sourced the directors of each music video, if you look at each source, they all say something along the lines of, "The video for this single by Sleigh Bells was directed by..." If you think what is said in those sources are inaccurate, well, that's covered by WP:V. (BTW, Release (music) only has a single source, which is a dead link.)

Now, regardless of not including a source that states music videos are not necessarily singles, if all of you showed up with these comments right after I requested a third opinion, that would make sense. Instead, you all showed up weeks later, after Fezmar's forum shopping (which I am not faulting any of you for). You may not agree with me here, but are you honestly saying you don't see where I'm coming from? (I could also throw in WP:NOTAVOTE.) As I said before, this should have been resolved weeks ago. Erpert 07:26, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Again, it is a fringe concept that Music Videos count as a single. They do not. Period. Main stream academic and journalist sources do not refer to a video as a release for sale or as a single. Singles can have a video and still be a single release. Not every video is a single release. You may or may not be making this as apint of your dispute but others did. Now. Stop talking about editor behavior and work out the content. You can template this discussion all you want, but thowing up abbreviated links without expalining how they apply is not helping. So, I take it you have worked this out and are willing to compromise or are you at the point that your feel the next step in DR is more suitable. A third opinion did not work and you are certainly not working towards improving the article here. I suggest you limit further discussion on this DR/N to content. If you have nothing left to discuss here let us know so we can close this filing.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I am closing this as resolved as there is a rough consensus against refering to a music video as a single or that music videos can be considered as a single.--Amadscientist (talk) 07:55, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

FWIW Misplaced Pages editing includes much personal judgement. Apart from reporting the statements from sources we are supposed to match sources' content to general knowledge on subject, neutrality and actually truth to some degree. A typical occurrence of such practice is dismissal of citation requests per WP:V, when the material isn't likely to be challenged or is plain wrong. Indeed, there are problems with finding sources that could disband blatantly wrong and incredible claims (eg. it's hard or even impossible to find a source disbanding claims that Babylon was relocated to Mars or that people normally have two heads). This issue falls into this category: there is no need in providing reference supporting the statement that music videos and singles are different things, as this is quite obvious and nobody ever dared to claim otherwise in print. Furthermore, per WP:BURDEN the author of a challenged material is the person responsible for referencing. As the talk page and article history reveal, it was the implication of these terms equivalence which was challenged, so instead of asking for sources saying otherwise Erpert should have provided sources himself or remove challenged material. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 08:13, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Randy Savage (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• null (talk · contribs)
• User-multi error: no username detected (help).

Dispute overview

The late wrestler Randy Savage has his name given as Randall Mario Poffo. I believe that this is a vandalism dating back many years. I think that his real name is just Randy. When he died, many news sources gave his name as Randall, but I believe that they simply got their false information from Misplaced Pages, leading to an erroneous loop. I can find no true public records, yearbook photos, or classic newspaper articles giving his name as Randall. Prior to the edit in 2005 that changed his name to Randall, there appear to be no Google results for Randall Poffo, either. I think it is a vandalism that has snowballed out of control.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I left a comment on the talk page, but nobody replied. I changed his name to Randy, stating clearly that I can see no proof of his real name being Randall, but somebody just reverted my edit.

How do you think we can help?

I don't know. I don't like the idea of this poor dead guy's name (literally, his name) being tarnished by what might be ancient vandalism. I don't know what the official "word" is considered to be on a celebrity's real name. I'd like input from somebody who is knowledgeable about these things.

Pinellas County public records, his obituary, yearbook photos etc, agree with me, "Randy".

Misplaced Pages itself and many other sites with not very strict factual policies agree with "Randall".

Opening comments by null

Opening comments by

Randy Savage discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:EU (2012) (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Hobbes (talk · contribs)
• Robbx213 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I made an edit to the table that goes in the EU (2012) page to make the table's layout/structure more consistent with the game. Hobbes reverted the edit twice in ~11 hrs, without communication, and used Admin abilities to protect the Table. My basic argument is that the Table needs to mirror the game, which would be consistent with Wiki style guidance. Hobbes' argument seems to center on consistency with the old game's format and the notion that the Geoscape (actually the Globe) somehow constitutes the strategic layer of the game even though it is not even the name of the one facility in the entire Base that constitutes the strategic layer.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

None, since Hobbes' answers in the Discussion give the impression that I need to simply accept 'official policy'.

How do you think we can help?

Gather opinions from other experienced editors on Wiki style guidance. Also, evaluate whether admin abilities were abused.

Opening comments by Hobbes

Opening comments by Robbx213

I think the Table that represents the main page for XCOM: EU (2012) should be formatted consistent with the actual game rather than consistent with the format from the old 1994 game. There should not be a major heading for 'The Geoscape' because it no longer exists as it once did. 'The Globe' is a feature in the Mission Control facility inside the XCOM base (aka Ant Farm). There are many facilities; the base as a whole constitutes how the player deals with the strategy layer. Therefore, 'XCOM HQ' should be the major heading and only major themes under that should be listed in the main page Table. Those themes include Base Facilities, Research, and Manufacturing/Production. Individual facilities should not be listed on the main page, rather deeper in the HQ or Base Facilities pages. The Lead Developer for the game doesn't even call it Geoscape, he called it Globe, and it's not even the title of the facility in which it resides. The wiki should mirror the game so that it's easy for people to find information quickly. They want to search in a manner consistent with the game's formatting. Anything else will confuse them and ultimately limit the Wiki's usefulness. I also think it is inappropriate to revert someone's edits twice in ~11 hrs without commentary and then use Admin rights to 'protect' the Table. User:Robbx213 205.254.147.8 (talk) 18:13, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Talk:EU (2012) discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Michael Welner (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Jcally66 and stewaj7 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This page has been the source of many bad faith edits. A contentious statesment about peer review being controversial, without any appropriate reference was included. In the middle of discussions about contentious edits that violate WP:NPOV and WP:ORIGINAL see: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Michael_Welner#New_Edits - Jcally66 made edits to the page - http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Michael_Welner&curid=10986838&diff=515663566&oldid=515661934. - disregarding discussions.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussioon talk pages for Michael Welner, discussion on Jcally66 talk page, providing info about wiki etiquette.

How do you think we can help?

Protect page until editors agree upon new edits. I think Jcally66 and stewaj7 can resolve this with a little patience. Or get more editors to pitch in.

Opening comments by Jcally66 and stewaj7

I think that the issue is that I was not in the courtroom for this case as was Jcally66 and I was not so closely attached to this outcome so my only point is that we keep the page free of biased reporting - keeping in mind that this page has a history of bad faith editing. I raised issue with Jcally66 edits because in accordance with WP:ORIGINAL reliable, verified references must be included to support your statements about peer review being controversial. Concluding from your review of a source(s)(that are not available to the public via a citation) that peer review is controversial is not WP:NPOV but rather vested interest commentary. Wiki editors are cautioned to avoid such practices in biographies of living persons. In accordance with WP:NPOV introducing points of contention (either positive or negative) that are reliably sourced should be balanced. I think we should be sure to remain neutral so that you don't introduce contentious content just for the sake of controversy.I also think the point of a BLP is to be factually informative - it is not the forum to argue forensic peer review or other opinions about practice. Just because an expert is question about peer review as Trestman, Marcopulos and others were does not make something controversial. Please remember that experts are questioned about their opinions all the time. This is the nature of being an expert.Stewaj7 (talk) 19:11, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Michael Welner discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Fall River (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Massachusetts (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Marcbela (talk · contribs)
• Id420x (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

User keeps changing intro paragraph for Fall River, New Bedford and Brockton to include multiple "distances from" other cities that are irrelevant and detracting from the main articles.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have posted in the talk page for Fall River, contacted the user on two occasions, and he keeps changing.

How do you think we can help?

Contact the user.

Opening comments by Id420x

Fall River, Massachusetts discussion

Hello! Thank you for submitting a DRN request. A discussion should take place on the talk page before the dispute is brought to DRN. If the user remains unresponsive after repeated contacting, it can become a conduct issue.--SGCM (talk) 01:46, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.