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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Derry article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

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Derry/Londonderry name dispute, Misplaced Pages

This is place for all chat relating to the name of the page. I would suggest in future all chat on the name goes into the Derry/Londonderry name dispute page.Doopa (talk) 22:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

on the Derry/Londonderry name dispute page I was thinking of putting how the wikipedia guidelines work in the same way how the BBC guidelines are there. Any comments? C. 22468 (talk) 11:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I understand statements in Misplaced Pages need references to support them. What reference is used to support the statement in p1 that the city is more usually known as Derry? There isn't a reference. It is more usually known as that amongst Irish / catholic / republicans. It is more usually known as Londonderry amongst Protestants / Ulster and in the non-Irish world - the BBC calls it Londonderry. Explain this difference and don't pretend. 86.129.5.187 (talk) 11:55, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Please see multiple previous discussions --Snowded 11:59, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I am not on about how the pages are I was on about how the Guidlines are and I was thinking of putting something like this in on the Derry/Londonderry name dispute for the Responses to the dispute section. and I wanted to see what people though first.

Misplaced Pages

Derry for the city and County Londonderry for the County. Other things such as Londonderry Port and Derry GAA follow their official names.

C. 22468 (talk) 17:11, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Londonderry should be used as it's within the United Kingdom. That the name offends anybody, is irrelevant. GoodDay (talk) 14:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I am not on about what the pages are called I wanted to just put the Misplaced Pages guidelines on the Derry/Londonderry name dispute#Response to the dispute because the BBC, Guardian and The Times style guides are there so why not the Misplaced Pages ones? C. 22468 (talk) 17:47, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources? O Fenian (talk) 17:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Other than Misplaced Pages no but may be able to possibly find some, Is it worth doing though? C. 22468 (talk) 17:52, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

there is Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (Ireland-related articles), its what most media things use in that part and can't find anything on the Internet. C. 22468 (talk) 19:03, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

For the love of God Almighty, it's Londonderry - not Derry. It's within the UK. 109.255.108.147 (talk) 18:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

and as it never happened why is the wikipedia article named Derry? For example most people call "Newcastle upon Tyne" Newcastle , yet the wikipedia article uses its official and legal name. If it didn't the encyclopedia would be unreliable. so if it happens there why not here? the sentence "more usually called derry" will just annoy the heck out of unionists and that is bound to start a fight on here. The articles you have produced are original work which in themselves show no research or ways to backup their claims, its just opinions! I could write an article now on how the city is more commonly known as londonderry and post it on here and it would be down as unquestionable fact! I'm starting to think I'd be getting more reliable information from unencyclopedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.109.42 (talk) 19:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe in any god, almighty or not, but it's still Londonderry. For a British city to be called by a name that Britain doesn't recognise is absurd, and damages Misplaced Pages's reputation. --FergusM1970 (talk) 09:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The above point is a good one - this page is severely detrimental to the reputation of Misplaced Pages given that the official name is Londonderry. It is perfectly legitimate within the article to note the controversy but utterly absurd to change the title. As noted below the correct English name for Bombay is Bombay however the article on en.wikipedia is titled Mumbai since that is the city's official name according to the Indian government. The official name of Londonderry is Londonderry - end of argument. Until Misplaced Pages changes this it has to be said this page represents a political argument, political point-scoring and falls well below the standards which would be considered acceptable by an editor of any serious encyclopaedia. It is altogether rather sad that it isn't given it's correct name. Slakelives (talk) 22:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

i am still unsure why the name is derry. the page on bombay states mumbia because that is its name in india... most people remember it as bambay but it was changed by the sovereign country and therefore the new name now stands. the sovereign country of northern ireland uses the name Londonderry then that is what you need to call it. i have found wikipedians to be very logical but not here...why? Dave-o-dagenham (talk) 15:58, 16 September 2011 (UTC) - also google maps reffers to it as londonderry / derry - using the correct name first then a name it is also known as. and we all know that google is right on everything.. lol :)Dave-o-dagenham (talk) 16:01, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

It is the most commonly used name to describe Londonderry, and editorial discussions have decided that this justifies using shortened/colloquial names in the place of the official one. Another example is North Korea not being called Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, which is its official name. ★KEYS★  16:06, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

But wikipedia is supposed to be held to encyclopaedic standards. If we go on the system of what people call a city then we would need to change the article on Mumbai to Bombay since most people there still call it by its real English name, certainly when speaking English. This article is a stain on wikipedia's reputation and it can't be allowed to be said that at some point in the past a bunch of agenda-driven obsessives flooded the site and decided the name and it can never be corrected. Slakelives (talk) 21:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

As many people know, Londonderry/Derry's wiki page is titled Derry. But I wanted to start by asking how people thought about this city being titled on wikipedia as Derry and not by it's offical name Londonderry? Cbowsie (talk) 23:22, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

It's daft. JonC 08:57, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Yawn, here we go again see all the previous discussions, and they probably feel the same as they do about a country, Ireland (official name) being called Republic of Ireland. Mo ainm~Talk 09:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. The majority of people in Derry call it Derry. The majority of people in Ireland call it Derry and it wins in the Google hits count. That's a clear common name to me. And before you start going on about it being a nationalist thing you should check out Siege of Derry, Bishop of Derry and Apprentice Boys of Derry.Bjmullan (talk) 09:15, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

just because its the common name for the city does not make it its OFFICIAL name. Just because its what most people call it doesnnt mean it should be its title in an encyclopdia, if that was the case newcastle upon tyne's page would be simple titled "newcastle". And as for all those links you posted, those events (the siege of derry) and the organisation (the apprentice boys of derry) were both formed/ took place BEFORE the city was officially renamed Londonderry, so what you are saying makes no sense. try doing some research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.88.106 (talk) 15:07, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

No, the Apprentice Boys used "Derry" as an informal of shortening. The city has always called Londonderry since being a city (before that there was no manjor settlement other than a monastery (a British military garrison on a different location does not count, no matter how much it is spun). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.182.215.182 (talk) 03:59, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really opposed to the page itself being at Derry, but I am opposed to having "Derry / Londonderry" in the "official name" field in the infobox. Derry / Londonderry is not the city's official name. The infobox should say Londonderry only. JonC 09:26, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Well it's better than not having the official name in it. And to counter Mo ainm - Republic of Ireland is an official description of the Irish state as imposed by the Republic of Ireland act. Derry on the other hand has no official status at all in any way other than as the name of the council area which doesn't affect the city. Mabuska 11:07, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Where does it say that in the Irish Constitution? Mo ainm~Talk 11:11, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Surely you can come up with something better than that. Who said anything about the Irish Constitution? I said the Republic of Ireland Act. What does it clearly state in point 2? State sanctioned and passed, so official, and never revoked so still official. Case closed. Mabuska 11:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Section 2 of the Act quite simply provides: "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."Description, it does not state it even as an official description so you are wrong Mabuska.143.239.70.68 (talk) 17:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

So its not official despite the fact it was passed by the Republic of Ireland's own parliament? It doesn't need to state official explicitly for it to be so - the fact the state's own parliament passed the act makes it official. Jeeze talk about pedantic for the sake of it. Unless of course you saying the Oireachtas isn't the official parliament of the Republic and that its governed by some other institution instead? Mabuska 11:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

"Jeeze talk about pedantic for the sake of it. Unless you are saying...." - please tone down the personal comments. No excuse for it. You know better. --HighKing (talk) 11:07, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Pedantic is not a harsh or hard toned word. It is a single word that helps get across a meaning that'd take several words or a whole sentence to. Mabuska 12:36, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Since you've asked, the city's name is Londonderry. Thus my reason for supporting the article being moved to Londonderry. GoodDay (talk) 04:52, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

The republic of ireland is the official name for the country, not Ireland, Ireland is the name of the island not the country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.88.106 (talk) 15:02, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. Okay so the feeling I am getting from reading the comments in response to my question and the above comments before my question is that a lot of people do not agree with the page being called Derry and that it is the same people disagreeing with Londonderry being used. Therefore my second question now is; why is this page still called Derry despite the fact that this page alone shows that there is wide support for Londonderry. Thank you for your responses in advanced.Cbowsie (talk) 00:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC) 23:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

In general wp prefers common names, see WP:COMMONNAME, as Bjmullan said earlier - Lugnad (talk) 23:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Problem with that is Londonderry and Derry are both common names for the city. Mabuska 12:34, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

There are a few articles that come to mind that people do not agree with in naming terms and terms used within , British Isles and Republic of Ireland being two examples but guidelines are in place to give a clear understanding of what should be used , even if some of us disagree with them we are here to make Wiki better not argue over it time and time again . PS Cbowsie sign in when on line . Understandable that sometimes it can be forgotten .Murry1975 (talk) 09:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

I understand that many places have been given common names, but do you not agree that having the correct name for a page such as this one would be important to ensure that people are being informed of the correct and official name. I agree that the reasons why Derry is used should be highlighted, but is having the page titled such because it is common necessary?Cbowsie (talk) 00:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You have introduced no new arguments from the last time you brought this up. You were informed of policy last June and received a warning for one of your edit summaries. Given that there was no excuse for you editing the article direct some months ago. I really hope you have not decided to make this an annual occurance. Misplaced Pages policy on common names is clear and the long standing "Derry for the city Londonderry for the county" agreement has provided much needed stability. In respect of your comment about "wide support for Londonderry" I suggest you count the numbers which don't really match that statement, or reflect the fact that most editors are really bored with stable positions being disrupted for no good reason. --Snowded 05:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Well i don't know how much of your comment is correct or can be backed up with any evidence, however i wouldn't say the "consensus" is the most stable seeing how many times throughout a week we have to revert someone going against it on some article. Mabuska 11:48, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I would disagree that it's every week Mabuska. Also, as the page has several thousand visits a week, the odd issue doesn't suggest that the common name is unstable. --NorthernCounties (talk) 20:44, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say about this one article, i said "on some article". It does happen quite a lot. It might be stable on this article, but that doesn't mean it is everywhere else. Mabuska 11:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

When this argument comes up time after time we are usually given one of two answers; 'it's already been answered or that's what the consensus said'. May I ask when this consensus was made regarding the title and its conclusion? Cbowsie (talk) 00:31, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:IMOS Mo ainm~Talk 00:41, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

As it was some time ago a consensus was made, how do you go about getting a new consense? Thanks Cbowsie (talk) 21:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC) ???Cbowsie (talk) 23:03, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

See the link to IMOS, raise it there --Snowded 06:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

there is the last failed official attempt to request a move to a different name. Given that WP:COMMONNAME (which is part of the wider policy on article titles) says "Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources" and Derry being the common name is reliably sourced, the chances of a move succeeding would seem to be virtually nil. So do you have anything constructive to add to the encyclopedia except bleating about the name of this article being one you don't like? Read WP:TITLECHANGES, "Editing for the sole purpose of changing one controversial title to another is strongly discouraged". 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:31, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Derry and Londonderry are both common names. 194.72.9.24 (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

The way in which editors reply to neutral POV messages concerns me. All I have asked is why this page is being called something it's not even though there is wider support for the change which can be seen on this page alone. I have then asked as an editor who does not know great detail of Misplaced Pages how I go about changing this and I get replies as if I’m a bigot. However thank you to those who supplied the links. Also could I ask editors to provide sources as to where it is proven that 'Derry' is more common? Don't you think that an editor such as myself who actually lives here to be a reliable source. Cbowsie (talk) 22:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

There are sources for Derry and there are sources for LDerry, as a compromise IMOS came up with Derry for the City and LDerry for the county, this works well and prevents endless debate on numerous articles about the name. Mo ainm~Talk 23:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not science but a search of google brings back 35,100,000 results for Derry and 25,600,000 for Londonderry. Also you should be aware (as someone who claims to live there) that the majority of the people who live in Derry call it Derry. Thankfully Gerrymandering isn't as common in the city as it was in the 1960s. Bjmullan (talk) 23:34, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the first paragraph, do you not think that it should state right from the beginning that Londonderry is the legal/official name and not at the end of this paragraph. Cbowsie (talk) 23:06, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

It mentions both names at the start , runs through the origin and meanings and finishes with the legal name . I think it flows well and shows an understanding of the origin and changes of the name . Its a hell of a lot better written than some leads on wiki.Murry1975 (talk) 23:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Well take France for example; it states the official name in the very first words. What about saying the first words "Officially Londonderry" and leave the rest as it is? Cbowsie (talk) 22:21, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Well that could go either way , as in "Originally Derry". It flows well in the way it states the information and gives the reader a quick guide to the article which is what leads are meant to. It would be foolish to think a lead would state the full contents of the article in the lead but it gives a good embodiment of it. The use of the common name and official name their viewed political meanings and the problems associated with these is given in the article. The leaving of this to the article but covering it in the way the lead does is done very well.Murry1975 (talk) 09:51, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

People seem to of lost their heads in an argument, as it was decided Londonderry for the county name and Derry to the city name, an entirely fair compromise that in no way harms the integrity of the encyclopedia. People just love arguing. (And now I'm wondering why both Londonderry and Derry were NOT recognized by my GChrome spellchecker, honestly, Americans!) --Nutthida (talk) 16:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me to be bowing to compromise when an encyclopaedia should be stating the legal name. The legal name is Londonderry, it even says so in the introduction. To name the article Derry, and then state its legal name as Londonderry, is a contradiction and needs to be fixed. Thedaveformula (talk) 09:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Why do you think it a contradiction? Fmph (talk) 10:35, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

It's a contradiction to name the page Derry and then state that its legal name as Londonderry. This city is in the UK, its legal name is Londonderry, that may change, who knows, but until it does its name under constitutional law is Londonderry. How much more support does a name change need when its current governing country are saying its official name is Londonderry? Thedaveformula (talk) 18:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Welcome Thedaveformula to Irish articles where nothing is ever what it seems. A few pointers so you know where your feet are WP:TROUBLES, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:DERRY( or if you prefer WP:LONDONDERRY) the last one is part of WP:IMOS. On this page you should read the archieves, it helps doing that on any Ireland related article (yes I found out the hard way). But as a cursory note there are other articles that are effected common/legal/offical name. You should understand that we use British English in the article but could use Hiberno-English, American-English, Ulster-Scots or any other form on the talk page , enjoy.Murry1975 (talk) 19:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dave - unfortunately that's not considered a contradiction in Misplaced Pages terms. As Murry says, have a read of WP:COMMONNAME which is the most apposite policy in this case. My favourite quote from it is this one:

"Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources."

So that's why it wouldn't be seen as a contradiction in this case. Fmph (talk) 19:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

This following policy seems to be a habit amongst the wiki community that I accept for now but don't like: "The rules have already been decided, if you disagree with how an article is done, you can view these pre-ordained rules at ...." well, what if the rules aren't good enough? For me, questioning the title of this article is not one of political agenda - if Londonderry joins a United Ireland then the page names becomes Derry, fair play. But right now, as we speak, Londonderry is part of the UK and its legal name is Londonderry. Thedaveformula (talk) 18:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

@ Bjmullan - it's pointless to use Google to try to prove your point. Considering Google will list webpages that contain "derry" as part of the word that means it's going to include webpages to do with Ballinderry, Derrymore, Edenderry, Derryard and many other places as well as the usage in GAA sites and republican propaganda ones. Then you also have to take into account that Londonderry is the also title of Marquiss and an island off the coast of Chile and of several towns/cities in the USA. Google for this point is pointless. Mabuska 10:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

In fairness, BJMullan wasn't trying to use Google to try to prove his point. He started his post with It's not science but a search of google.... --HighKing (talk) 14:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

This fight has gone on long enough. As soon as the name is changed officially to Derry then I'll be one of the first to call it such. But right now it's Londonderry and I expect Misplaced Pages to name it properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bunters196 (talk • contribs) 16:34, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The official name to whom exactly? Face up to the fact that this encyclopedia does not work to pander to any side but tries to represent a NPOV, we have the County as Londonderry and the city as Derry. This is maintained for balance and neutrality. It's clearly explained in the lead that Londonderry is the legal name (whatever that means) but that's absolutely no reason to ignore the numerous people, organisations, and political entities that describe it as Derry. --Nutthida (talk) 09:07, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The official name to everyone. Mooretwin (talk) 10:25, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that means administrative/legal name. What various entities name it as could be seen as official to them. For instance Derry Senior Football Championship - I was being general in its usage. Apologies. (Sorry if I'm not making sense, I'm really tired :C) --Nutthida (talk) 10:54, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, yes, and GAA articles accordingly use the name "Derry" for the county. Mooretwin (talk) 09:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Official name is dictated by the state the place is a part of. Organisations confer no official status. Mabuska 11:10, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Great quote - you should use it over at the "Republic of Ireland / Ireland" debate sometimes. Oh wait.... --HighKing (talk) 20:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

It's been used many times if you read the debates - Republic of Ireland is the official description of the state according to the Irish state's Republic of Ireland Act. Go figure. Mabuska 12:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

The difference being that Londonderry isn't 60-odd years old and occupying most of Londonderry island... JonC 20:47, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that Catholic nationalists call the city Derry for political reasons, notwithstanding its official name. For Misplaced Pages to accept the abbreviated name is to take a political position in support of Catholic nationalists. Surely that is wrong - the article must be retitled Londonderry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 06:45, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

So you're saying every Catholic (Correction: Republican, some of which are not Catholics) calls it Derry just to for political reasons? That's probably not true at all. --Τασουλα (talk) 19:07, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

In 2007, the High Court of the United Kingdom ruled that the city's offical name is Londonderry. Clyde1998 (talk · contribs)

So what? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 17:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. I also want to note on why this user left a message on an old thread...easy mistake to make, though. Oh it's raining outside and my head hurts.--Τασουλα (talk) 20:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Introduction is wrong

Derry was not renamed Londonderry. Londonderry was founded as a completely seperate settlement on the other side of the river from old Derry. The two then grew into each other and it was the Londonderry name which held strongest and became the name of them both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.150.19.235 (talk) 04:16, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, you have a point. This "old Derry" was also essentially a British military outpost though I believe it was effectively torn down. The dishonest use by Irish Nationalists to try and use it as evidence to deny that Londonderry is the original city name is highly ironic!

Wrong. Derry was sacked in 1608. The rebuilding of the Derry began in 1609. The city was renamed as part of the King James charter of 1613. Bjmullan (talk) 10:55, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Also, please sign your posts and not rely on a unreliable/overworked bot to do it for you...--Τασουλα (talk) 11:40, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Just call it Londonderry/Derry or Derry/Londonderry or... DerLon

Misplaced Pages is the only place that claims to have found an "agreement" on this, and from the discussions here, since 2005, which pretty much make any other discussions about the article impossible, there clearly is no real agreement, just the problem of Misplaced Pages:Systemic bias where the majority of the people watching the article feel very strongly about it - there's never going to be a final agreement one way the other the same way there is not any in real life, and Misplaced Pages shouldn't try claim false consensus based over who is around at the time to get a "consensus" fixed in stone (and then say, but, "you missed the consensus! we agreed!" than an accurate representation of people at large.

"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

"But the plans were on display ..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a flashlight."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

--Mistress Selina Kyle 19:31, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree pretty much. We need to find a balance and not a compromise. Consensus can change so people referring to previous consensus as if it is written law that cannot be changed is a little silly, this happens in just about every article with disputes such as this one. Also, there's always a lack of outside interest and people previously un involved. I have no opinion on what the title of the article should be mind you, this is just common sense n'all :P --Τασουλα (talk) 19:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Proposed superior solution

Wikipedias current policy is woefully biased and does not reflect the real world. Sensible non-sectarian people in Northern Ireland who don't make the name an issue call it Londonderry in formal contexts (e.g. in writing, on letters or on maps) and Derry for short in casual conversation (just like Newtownards is called Ards for short by locals and the council is Ards Borough Council; also Carrickfergus/Carrick) (this is regardless of political/religious background). A better solution is the following:

• The article to be at Londonderry since article titles are formal (compare to Newtownards, Carrickfergus, Kingston Upon Hull and Newcastle Upon Tyne)
• The article to open with the text "Derry, officially Londonderry"
• Body text in all articles to use Derry but must also use Londonderry at least once
• Londonderry on all maps

The "compromise" of naming the County Londonderry and city Derry is also a nonsense as the county is no longer used for administrative puposes (therefore fewer instances) and also informally known as County Derry. I believe the same solution above should be also used for the county. 86.182.215.182 (talk) 03:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Until the current policy changes I believe that the article should have a NPOV tag. 86.182.215.182 (talk) 04:00, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You're more likely to see Iris Robinson at a Gay Pride march than get consensus for that proposal. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 08:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Well considering many editors (such as yourself) are more keen to use Misplaced Pages as a propaganda ftool to further the Irish Republican cause than they are to try and state objective facts then that is not surprising. This proposal is more non-sectarian than any other I've seen and more inline with the standard protocols used in news reports concerning the city. 86.167.249.67 (talk) 09:29, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You are really going to get far by accusing other editors on here. Bjmullan (talk) 11:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out ONIH's comment wasn't actually...er...anything to do with his own opinion. I can't see those proposals being accepted and I don't care what this article is called, really. --Τασουλα (talk) 12:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

This guy is a known pro-IRA propagandist - some of us weren't born yesterday. Clearly, since you don't care, then I'd agree with the proposor that a NPoV tag is required.

Eat your heart out. And while I wont deny my belief that ONIH has some sympathies with a political side you may not agree with, saying he's in cahoots or whatever with a laughable excuse of a "terrorist group" (These days) is going a bit too far. Irish republicanism has largely moved on. --Τασουλα (talk) 10:02, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Possible moratorium

It seems like never month passes without yet another new editor raising the issue of the name. A good compromise was thrashed out some time ago and its supported by sources. Maybe (like the name of IRELAND) its time to call a monitories on raising the issue for a few years to give everyone some peace. --Snowded 17:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Nearly always on a Monday too ;). All joking aside, it is understandable that new editors have confusion with the issue, likewise I have came across experienced editors who fail to edit in the correct Ireland or when editing a page leave it incorrect. We should AGF with new editors and understand thier confusion, from both sides, the comprimise was made sometime ago and whether new editors are aware or not giving a warning over the voicing of their view on it could be pointy, at least in the first instance.Murry1975 (talk) 17:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the AGF bit. A lot of people coming here might be very confused indeed - and not have any kind of POV agenda. We should though take into consideration these people would and possibly should seek to understand the situation before starting yet another discussion. --Nutthida (talk) 09:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Just an idea but if you click to edit List_of_indie_rock_musicians for example, you get a large box advising you what edits should and shouldn't be made. Possibly a similar header could be added to this talk page, advising editors of previous discussions before they go over well trodden ground? Valenciano (talk) 13:18, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Thats a good idea Valenciano, there is an note on the page but an edit notice would not be able to be removed unlike the note . Murry1975 (talk) 13:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Should the section title not be "Possible moratorium" as opposed to the non-existent word "monitorium"? Mabuska 12:38, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Changed, us dyslectics are not best at spelling .... --Snowded 12:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know whether that was sarcasm, a joke or serious. Mabuska 14:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, serious, I do have mild dyslexia, and am eternally grateful for spell checkers (silicon and carbon). Good catch, I corrected and thanks --Snowded 16:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the revert of your comment Nutthida, there is nothing wrong with the temperature in here. In all seriousness i would never have guessed, however worry not, i still have to look up Google for the proper spelling of many words. Mabuska 18:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I used to hide it with bad handwriting, but these days life is easier, and you don't get a ruler across the hand for every word you get wrong in the weekly spelling test! --Snowded 06:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

It's very hard to tell. Stupid internet words - I think "Ambiguous" and "Lack of Tone" is the issue. Yes, I have to make corrections all the time - foreign born and probably dyslexic too. In general people like me are very good at looking for correct spellings for Misplaced Pages. I like a tidy talk-page (Indents are big for me) and would probably enjoy cleaning talk pages up (Indenting other peoples posts, rude as it may seem, is acceptable). Even this page could be tidied up. Maybe I'll correct other people's spellings? No wait. Too far. TOO far. (Also, Google Maps has it as Londonderry/Derry on their maps) --Nutthida (talk) 19:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Google Maps weren't great quality for a long time as many of the map names were actually based directly on Misplaced Pages! The Ordnance Survey of Northern Ireland (Northern Ireland's official mapping agency and used by the Northern Ireland government) uses only Londonderry. Microsoft Bing maps uses Londonderry in large text and underlined, with Derry in small text. 86.182.215.182 (talk) 03:47, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

It is said that the present title is a compromise. However I would question that. The choice is between Derry (the Catholic informal name) and Londonderry (the official name). The use of Derry is a political decision. Whenever there is political dispute, the official title should be used- to do otherwise would be for Misplaced Pages to adopt a political stance.203.184.41.226 (talk) 07:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages uses official titles in other cases. The only logical reason for calling Londonderry "Derry" is that a majority of editors contributing to this discussion are Roman Catholics or so-called Nationalists", and not willing to follow the normal encyclopaedic rules of Misplaced Pages. This isn't a compromise, it is a political hijacking.203.184.41.226 (talk) 07:21, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

No personal attacks please. I am neither a Roman Catholic, a nationalist OR Irish for your information. There is no set-in-stone rule that "official" names are used for articles, the common name of the city is Derry or Londonderry. It just happens to be called Derry here. --Τασουλα (talk) 12:10, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

"but for thousands of years before that people had been living in the vicinity."

Can we find out any more info about the people who inhabited the area that now makes up Derry? Does Derry have any ancient, prehistoric sites? There's nothing in the History of Derry article either. The sentence is a complete loner here. --Τασουλα (talk) 00:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

looking at this map, it would show the area was largely or entirely glaciated during the last ice-age...I think it's safe to assume it wasn't inhabited by Humans before then..? --Τασουλα (talk) 00:34, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

There is a block on the article now so i cannot add, however this is a link fo the Neolithic site that was discovered in Derry in 2002 and a Mesolithic site discovered in the 1970s called Mount Sandel --SRaemiA (talk) 23:50, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Mount Sandel is in Coleraine in the county of Londonderry, not the city. Still there have been artifacts going back 10'000 years found in County Londonderry at least 8'000 years before any Gael emerged. Mabuska 13:29, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Ancient name

I see there's some to-ing and fro-ing over the "ancient" Irish name - whether it used be spelled Daire or Doire, etc. The Causeway Coastal Route reference isn't the best. But there are better.

• Planning Derry: Planning and Politics in Northern Ireland states:

The city has a recorded history stretching back to at least 545 when St Colmcille (Columba 521-97) founded a monastery where the present city now stands. At that time there was already a fortification on the island then known as Daire Calgach. When the land was given to St Columba for his monastery an oak grove covered the site, giving the place its Irish name daire.

• A Dictionary of British Place-Names states:

Derry (Doire) Derry. Doire Calgaigh 535. 'Oak grove'. The original Irish name was Doire Chalgaigh, 'Calgach's oak grove'. A later name was Doire Cholm Cille, 'Columcille's oak grove', after a monastery founded by St Columba in 546. In 1613 Derry was renamed Londonderry by a group of merchants from London.

• The Origin and History of Irish Names of Places states:

Doire or daire is an oak wood and is almost always represented in anglicised names by derry or derri. (skip some and then) The most ancient name of Londonderry, according to all our authorities, was Daire-Calgaich ]; Adamnan, in one place uses this name, and elsewhere he translates it Roboretum-Calgachi, the orak wood of Calgach. (skip some more) Daire-Calgaich was the old pagan name used for ages before St. Columba erected his monastery there in 546.

• And finally Irish Pedigrees: Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation states:

Derry, in Irish, "Doire," signifies an Oak Wood; and the town was anciently called "Doire-Calgach," signifying the Oak Wood of Calgach, from a chief of that name;

There are different reliable scholarly sources using both "daire" and "doire" as the root. Our job isn't to present one viewpoint in favour of another so there's a strong case to represent both names. Thoughts? --HighKing (talk) 12:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

All names and spellings should be included, so long as we note which ones ar Old Irish, Middle Irish, Erly Modern Irish, and so forth. However, I think we should keep them in the "Name" section to avoid cluttering the lede. All we really need to say in the lede is that Derry comes from Daire or Doire. ~Asarlaí 20:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's another source for Daire. Also that Irish Pedigrees one is a poor source for reliability as the sentences after the one that interests us makes clear: it claims that the territory of County Londonderry was part of Tir Eoghain and known as O'Cahan's Country - err... wrong. O'Cahan's Country only covered the top half of the present county with the bottom half actually being part of Tir Eoghain with O'Cahan only acknowledging Tir Eoghain as overlord. John O'Hart is a unreliable historian anyways with even Edward Mac Lysaght stating so (which is ironic considered how unreliable he was also).

@Asarlai: It's incorrect to say that Derry derives from Doire when Doire is the modern form of Daire. The article already contains the fact in its name section and the change to the lede is to remove the inconsistency and incorrectness of stating it derives from "Doire".

I did add in afterwords: (modern Irish: Doire) along with the earliest mention of the place - makes the context as obvious as the sky being blue as far as i can tell. Also take in the fact the Irish for oak is still "dair" and "darach", for example the "Dair Ghaelach" (or Sessile Oak tree species). Yet even in Irish Gaelic's sister languages: in Manx Gaelic it's "darragh" and "darree" and in Scotch Gaelic "darach". Shows a common origin of the word from "Dair" not "Doir". Mabuska 22:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Also take into consideration: Durrow, County Offaly and Kildare which both have parts in their name that mean oak and, and though the Irish word given is different from Daire or Doire, both use "Dar" instead or "Dor". Mabuska 22:43, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Mabuska. It's incorrect to say that Doire is the "modern" Irish equivalent of Daire. Both spellings were used in ancient times. We can see in the Annals of the Four Masters that both were used for numerous place names. For example, Derrane in Roscommon is mentioned as Doiréan, and Derrinlaur (a townland in Waterford) is mentioned as "Doire-an-lair" (middle derry) are examples of Doire being used. And I've only ever seen mention of "Doire Colmcille" or "Doire Cholmcille" - and that name goes back to the 10th century.

The point is to represent the sources fairly and evenly - per NPOV. There are some sources that say "Derry" derives from "Daire", and others that say "Derry" derives from "Doire". It's not our job to pick and chose sources we like. So long as they're reliable and not FRINGE, they should be represented.

I propose that the sentence in the lede is changed to "The name Derry is an anglicisation of the Irish name Daire or Doire meaning "oak grove". This is an accurate summary with the key facts. All other matters on the name can be moved to the name section where the complete history of the name can be dealt with. --HighKing (talk) 16:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The NI Placename Project also shows that both spellings wer in use since records began. ~Asarlaí 18:15, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed sentence by HK. Mo ainm~Talk 18:49, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Go on ahead - insert factually incorrect information based upon flawed arguments. Flawed how? Well how ancient do you think the Annals of the Four Masters is? We have facts that tell us it was called "Daire" from AD75 - the Annals of the Four Masters was compiled in the 17th century so it can hardly be called a good source to use for this discussion - that's 1600 years of difference - by which time Daire had been replaced by Doire. Asarlai's link is also flawed evidence in that regard as the early Irish forms provided are from the Annals of the Four Masters (AFM) and the Annals of Ulster (AU) - note how the Annals of Ulster, a 15th century source, states "Daire". The AU is an older source than the AFM. Mabuska 10:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Also HK - a 10th century mention of "Doire Cholmcille" is not as old as references dating back to the 1st century. Your source also backs up my view - what does it say in the 2nd paragraph on the right hand side of the first page? What does it say it's original name was? Mabuska 10:55, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Just thinking about it what we (especially I) are looking at this in the wrong way - what we really should be looking at is when the first Anglicizations of Derry appear not the oldest form of the Irish word - is it from a period where the Irish for it was "Daire" or from the period when it had become known as "Doire". That would sort it out - however that may prove hard to discover so in that respects i can accept HK's suggestion of "Daire or Doire" as without that kind of proof we can't really say. Mabuska 11:14, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Mabuska. And I think lots of this material should find its way into the "Name" section which I haven't looked at in detail yet, but I can see some improvements that can be made. --HighKing (talk) 15:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's a suggestion. The "Name" section isn't structured very well. It starts off with "official name", throws in a couple of sentence on the history, then talks about the preferences of nationalists, the argues about the merits of Londonderry over Derry, etc. I suggest that the paragraph is restructured as follows:

• Start off with the history of the name, from Daire Chalgach onwards.
• A summary of the name dispute.
• A summary of the current situation and nicknames
• Trivia is relevant

We should strive to keep the summaries relatively short - most of the detail for the dispute and the current situation is in Derry/Londonderry name dispute. --HighKing (talk) 15:26, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

It would be easy enough to do it in a chronological order from Daire Calgach until the adoption of "London" into its name. The political controversy over the name can be mentioned afterwords. Mabuska 14:16, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Though the best source for the name section would be the Londonderry/Foyle edition of the Queen's place names project which i would consider the authority on the origins of place names. Mabuska 14:18, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I think a chronological telling is the best way to go about it. Note that we'll need to take all reliable sources into account - but I don't see that leading to any problems. --HighKing (talk) 17:41, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

The Queen's place-name project is the authoritative reliable source for such things - their work is exhaustive. Mabuska 19:36, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Any links? I found this and was a little surprised to see the county referred to as Derry though. --HighKing (talk) 16:20, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

That's the very book i have. Curious as to why they choose just that rather than a stroke version - maybe their project manager prefers it ;-) For each townland they go into linguistic and phonetic study of the name as well as geography and history to find the most likely origin of a place name - more extensive and accurate research than anything else i've seen. Whilst there is no online links directly to the good work in the books, this i believe is derived from their work. Whilst i doesn't go into the detail of those books, it does give derivations of places where applicable and sometimes a bit of history. Mabuska 22:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Requested move:Derry to Londonderry

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Current convention is based on a compromise that the city be called Derry and the County be called Londonderry. Everyone knows that there has never been a County Derry in the history of Ireland and that before being named County Londonderry it was a mash up of County Coleraine and part of County Tyrone. There is no dispute that the county is called Londonderry. So how is this a compromise? Londonderry is also the official name of the city following the siege of Derry when Derry, at the time had been all but destroyed. Londonderry is also a city in Northern Ireland where the majority population are of unionist persuasion and hence would call the city Londonderry. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, and hence should use the official name, not a name, born from a skewed compromise to keep a cell of users happy. No doubt this request will come with a number of users stating same as previously discussed, but these comments are not helpful and are meaningless. Lets have a proper discussion on this....46.7.113.111 (talk) 21:04, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Considering 3/4's of the population of the city are Catholic, I doubt that claim. And yes, this has been discussed before, and nothing is going to change. I don't see any compelling reason to have one name preferred over the other personally (though admittedly, I prefer Derry from the reasons belonging to WP:COMMONAME), but what I do see is that changing it would be utterly pointless. It's just a name. The "official" name argument is discussed here. --Τασουλα (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

What claim? Londonderry is just as much a common name as Derry, though Londonderry is also the official name so...shouldn't Londonderry be used? Saying that nothing is going to change. is not a constructive attitude. I don't see any compelling reason to have one name preferred over the other personally - I still don't understand why Derry is preferred...46.7.113.111 (talk) 21:37, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose No new argument has been put forward. I also believe that controversial move requests in certain subject areas should only be opened by registered editors with a minimum number of edits to their name. --HighKing (talk) 22:59, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

  This topic was just closed by RA based on the fact the user previously opened a discussion on this 4 odd days ago. --Τασουλα (talk) 23:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose I gave good reasons at the other place for opposing just a few days ago. It looks like the proposer can't be bothered to read the reasons for opposes so why should I bother putting them in again this soon? Dmcq (talk) 00:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

There is no restriction on unregistered users making move proposals. However, I've closed this discussion because 46.7.113.111 proposed the move only four days ago at another venue. It was closed there per WP:SNOW. Please give some time before making the proposal again. --RA (talk) 00:03, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and it makes sense for 99% of cases that unregistered users can propose moves. But for the remaining 1% of cases especially areas rife with persistent and long-term socking, I suggest that the community develops individual rules for individual articles. It's happened before and been successful and minimizing disruption. --HighKing (talk) 11:37, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

This would be a good proposal HighKing. Some would say its a not in the spirit of WP:AGF, but in certain areas it is needed, such as here. Maybe the IP, who seems well versed on wikipedia, would like to create an account. Or maybe disclose thier previuosly held one if they have had one before.... Murry1975 (talk) 12:37, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

I think this topic does need to be discussed fully rather than the constant use of this had been discussed before and then close the discussion. A few truths to go with the lies presented by Τασουλα. This is an RM. I had previously raised an RFC, which was closed by RA within 2 days with out allowing for a full discussion or RFC comment. A discussion such as this deserves more than 2 days. I also do not know who granted RA and Τασουλα the right to close a discussion??? Please do not tie this discussion up in typical Wiki bureaucracy. 46.7.113.111 (talk) 18:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Pray, point out what "Lies" I have told. I'm getting pretty sick of your crap attitude. (Edit) considering the dubious nature of your edit history, where you have been prone to disruptive editing and forum shopping on this issue, I shouldn't be taking your attitude seriously. You're just presenting the same old arguments over and over, and it's pretty obvious what you think of the people on this page, including myself. You seem to fail in your understanding of this issue, and that's becoming more and more frustrating to the people who are sparing time to communicate with you here, even if you are presenting no new arguments. You can't seem to admit this. --Τασουλα (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Please choose your words wisely and enough with your incivility. Preventing a discussion is just as disruptive. I do not see the harm in discussing this. No new arguments are needed as the old facts are as strong as ever. Closing a discussion before it even gets going is not helpful. A few reasons for change - 1. Google Trends

2. According to the city's Royal Charter of 10 April 1662 the official name is Londonderry. This was reaffirmed in a High Court decision in January 2007 when Derry City Council sought guidance on the procedure for effecting a name change.

3. Londonderry and Derry are both common names for the city. So why does Derry take priority over the official name? even in the lede of the article, not least the article name.

4. There are sources for Derry and there are sources for LondonDerry, as a compromise IMOS came up with Derry for the City and LondonDerry for the county. But as the county name was never in dispute, how is this a compromise?

5. Political representatives for Londonderry voted to change the name of the council. These politicians are elected by the people of the city. right? So the fact that they have yet to change the name of the city would suggest that there is no consensus within a group of elected representatives. So why is that not good enough on wiki?

I do not understand why a fair compromise is constantly muted...instead of a constant throw back to a dated and loose compromise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.113.111 (talk) 19:44, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Ha! Civility? I'm not going to be civil to people who call me "liars". Don't lecture me on civility when all you got was an appropriate response to your baseless accusations, which you still haven't answered for. Attack me like that again, and I won't take kindly too it. I'd like to give you some home truths, but that would probably break AGF in more than one way. All I see are a bunch points you've bought up before which were rejected outright...FOUR days ago. This may shock you, but Misplaced Pages relies on CONSENSUS - I didn't even have a part in that discussion, I told I was neutral on this issue. All you're doing is bordering on Forum Shopping. Discussion? It's been had. Only four days ago. --Τασουλα (talk) 20:11, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

All valid points I'm afraid. I'm just saying that the current status is not very fair or neutral. Do you accept the points I have made? do you disagree with any of them? I understand that consensus is needed but the history of this talk page shows that the issue comes up time and time again. A new and fair compromise should be found, not muted. Apologies for any offence but I am just annoyed that 2 discussions I have tried to start have been closed within 2 days without enough time for all parties to contribute. That is not fair.46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:25, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

You've missed the point I was making to begin with: I don't care, as it's not of any serious interest to me, my only serious issue is to do with the reason RA closed your thread to begin with. That's all. --Τασουλα (talk) 20:27, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Well I was annoyed because I think it is up to the wiki community to decide whether a motion has a snowball chance, not one just one user. 46.7.113.111 (talk) 20:33, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The title isn't Derry because of a conflict with the county article. It is Derry because that satisfies WP:COMMONNAME much better than Londonderry. If you wish to change the article title policies then WT:Article titles is the place to try and do that at but this part of the policy has strong support there. It doesn't accomplish anything going on about Londonderry being the official name without changing that policy. Dmcq (talk) 23:01, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Dmcq, but I'm playing catch up. I am just reading this comment by Mo_ainm and he suggested that a compromise had been met in this way. Its very hard to find the details of this decision but how was Derry chosen based on WP:COMMONNAME? Having read WP:SET, I believe a google books search is an appropriate search to determine COMMON NAME and Londonderry returns 2,470,000 where as searching for Derry returns 2,100,000 results. 46.7.113.111 (talk) 17:50, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Does Derry have a serious issue with asbestos or what?

- seems one of the most hotly asked questions on the city council page is about asbestos. Is this touched upon in the article? I can't see anything...(asbestos clean up is a serious matter now!) --Τασουλα (talk) 19:22, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

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