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Guitar

Are you are a keen guitarist like myself then? I know Dennis is. I used to be into heavy rock and metal and blues only but as I've progressed on guitar I've ventured in learning jazz and flamenco which is far more complex and demanding playing. I'd like to see Slash play this huh? I've been concentrating on expanding my chordal knowledge of late from my Encyclopedia of Guitar Chords casebook edition! I've found some unusual chord inversions of ninth and ninth flat.sharp fifth chords. Sounds good in jazz playing to move down inversions. But its pretty vast. Its weird that a C9 chord you can play on the 5th fret like a D minor 7 shape shifted up a string! Phallic architecture ready for DYK nom, with a bit of a polish and copyedit should pass GA. Now an FA on it eventually would be quite something! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:36, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, Slash has made his mark, and so hats off to him. ;)

That Spanish classical guitarist is very good. His playing sounds natural, rather than preening for attention. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:23, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

• Doc, you are like my own personal YouTube DJ, nice pick, as usual. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:42, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

But its useless just learning chords of course, the trick of course is to be able to apply the different inversions and know how to connect with other chords and what licks will work over them. Like B7 chord accenting the D sharp and A notes and D sharp diminished tones etc which bring out the melody. Its worth learning as much as you can I think, it makes me a much better player! Now to have Joe Pass or Barney Kessel's chordal knowledge!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:45, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey Dennis check out Doyle Dykes here. Also I was figuring out this the other day by Lawrence Juber, can't get his fat tone or super clean finger work though. Not bad considering is a C major composition!

Doyle Dykes is very good, and he seems like a nice guy. I'd attend his church! Let's hope that he continues living strong. :)

Another video of him performing While My Guitar Gently Weeps has helped overwrite this abomination clogging my memory. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I've had a few lessons from Robert Conti on DVD. A Mafia boss staccato freaaaak. But knows his stuff alright.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:54, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

This is a great pleasure!

Last year, I had confessed to Malleus that I felt un-educated in my lack of understanding of music. At the time, a guitar was only a twinkle in my eye. My teaching myself guitar is also an attempt to understand basics of music.

In between professional and family responsibilities, I have been teaching myself guitar under inspiration from Robert Fripp: His Guitar Craft (GC) had performances in which (at least in my memory from record stores in the late 1980s) each guitarist played exactly one note---"circulations". When my wife and I rented an apartment with a (wretched guitar) on the wall last fall, I thought to myself, "I can play one note", and so I began with standard tuning and Hal Leonard. I have tried to emulate the GC technique---because they play beautifully, and also to avoid inflammation, which had already occurred through excessive typing last winter--- and some of its spirit in playing---for example, emphasizing relaxation.

I also wished to exercise the mephitic spirit of my junior-high band experience, which consisted in being given music to perform in concerts for parents---as fast, as high, and as loud as possible---with no discussion of musical history or theory or any ideas! Rather, I want to master basic guitar while understanding relevant musical principles, and have no ambition to become a publicly performing guitarist. I will be happy if I can make my wife and daughter happy. I find that playing guitar even for 15 minutes makes me more relaxed and productive when I return to mathematics or statistics.

I've started with frets 4-7 and am now working on frets 8-11, because they are most comfortable (noted long ago by principled guitar-pedagog Jamie Andreas, I've learned); frets 4-7 don't tempt me with open notes. (Fripp seems to emphasize the third and fourth strings and frets 7-8 in early GC, at least in the first primary exercise in the previously linked documentary.) I suspect that conventional teaching, with its emphasis on open notes, creates obstacles to fretboard fluency for most students, giving a false economy of early progress at the cost of a steeper climb from basic to intermediate guitarist.

I like major-thirds tuning, because its fretboard helps me to understand music. I've written myself exercises with Guitar Pro, trying to incorporate my very limited knowledge of musical theory. So I've learned frets 4-7 and now 8-11 via C-major scales, and lately consonant intervals tying together strings. (I've found this results in faster progress and more reliable skill than learning a few songs for each string.) Now, I'm beginning to learn chords, and I am working at mastering the major chords (in major thirds tuning). So you can see that my progress in writing articles about guitar music follows my self-instruction, rather closely.

(I do think that major-thirds tuning might be good for an aspiring guitarist, because it would encourage coherence and give the guitarist an outside sound....)

You may wish to look at the article on guitar chords, especially at the discussion of dominant seventh chords. I tried to write NPOV (and after prompting from Hyacinth did remove mention of major-thirds tuning), but Hyacinth did add a bit of qualification to a statement about playing dominant seventh chords in standard tuning. IMHO, it's obvious that such "dominant seventh chords" have little to do with their definitions (which we just gave in the article!) or even of inversions. I think that neither my attempt nor his response is the final word!

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:26, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, Hyacinth and I seem to have resolved the tempest in a teapot, and he even reinserted my graphic (after having removed it with a comment like "removing obvious error"...). What more can one want? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

You're doing a tremendous job on guitar chords, keep it up. Yeah I was the same. From my teen years to my mid 20s all I did was play Hendrixy pentatonic stuff not even bothering to learn what every note was, just the most common ones you know, same with bar chords and basic chords. But it got to the stage where I was listening to guitarists like Satriani and Malmsteen and I wanted to be able to play like that. So I started learning the Harmonic minor and Phrygian dominant and diminished arpeggios and sweeping picking and arpeggios and stuff and also started picking up the Lydian and other modes and understanding them. I did that for about a year when playing Malmsteen stuff started to get boring. It was really seeing Robert Conti clips on youtube I think who made me stop and realise how little I actually knew about melody and how they work over chords. And exactly that, I wanted to know where that weird jazzy "outside sound came from". So I made the decision to learn every note and the "weird" seeming jazz chords and that. Since I've been struggling to figure out how melody and chords work and getting away from the trap of thinking you have to start soloing from the root of the chords like in a lot of rock and blues pentatonics. my playing has come on massively since. I think the biggest concept is the 2-5-1 thing and working out solos and chords in any key, its the most common in jazz, like F minor 9, to B flat 7 sharp 5 to E flat major 7, D minor 7 flat 5 to G 7 sharp 5 to C minor 7 etc. Learning the Melodic minor scale and all its modes and understanding how to apply them is also sophisticated stuff and that and the whole tone is basically where that "outside sound" is coming from. To play a descending melodic minor/altered scale a half step above. You can introduce it into your blues playing and stuff, like blues in A when the chord change from E 7 to D7 the passing chord E flat 7 you can quickly play a B flat melodic minor scale, the flat 7 of the chord, the D flat note sharing the common tone with the minor third of the melodic minor scale. And its those shared tones of course which is why they work. Another thing is learning any scale in any key and often starting with you pinky finger. It makes you see the neck differently and is the most common type of phrasing in those complex Pat Martino/Metheny like jazz phrasing.

But the most important thing I think is getting hold of tab books or DVD instructions of guitarists who are insanely good and study and learn their music. My Best of Joe Pass book by Wolf Marshall I learned more about how melody lines work over certain chords than from anything else I think, the Robert Conti cds though are just about as good. It does sound like gobbledy gook talking about it but knowing it all and how to apply it over even the most bizarre of chords will make you a much better player. The biggest compliment I had was from my uncle who came around to me house and thought my playing was an old school jazz cd! I'll continue to get as good as I possibly can, its an achievement to see how good you can get. I think the key is actual tab book study and to practice the lines again and again until the lines of the great are embedded in your playing and you can apply them in different keys with other things you learned. I have the greatest respect for the flamenco players though and have learned to play picados and rasqueados without a pick. Here's my favourite guitarist of any genre (Paco on the right). You'll find him inspiring as I do I think. This is the very top level of guitar playing!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Have you or Dennis heard this guy play? My favourite electric player at the moment is Alex Hutchings though. Check out this and his other youtube clips. they're mostly jam sessions but he's astounding. How many modes does he use in this!!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:42, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again, Dr. B.!

It's a pity that there is no "musical theory for mathematicians" or "guitar for logicians", which would help a lot in writing an article.... Instead, there are dozens of "music theory for guitarists", which all look the same---making the market for mediocre statistical textbooks look like Springer Verlag's Grundisse series in comparison! (I think that I should give the dominant sevenths a rest for a few days.)

Onto personal matters: I did like the Spanish guitarist very much. :)

I couldn't really play the long-haired dude at the appropriate volume, because my daughter's sleeping.

My tastes run towards minimalism and simplicity. I love David Gilmour and Eric Clapton when they play slowly, and Jeff Beck when he plays sweetly. This is one my favorite performances by Fripp and a GC group. I've always enjoyed Stanley Clarke, but on the other hand I cannot understand why people like Al Di Meola...

For me, learning the guitar is part of learning about music, and I would be delighted to be able to play Cat Stevens or Bob Dylan songs. The difficulty of playing chords in NST is one reason why I gave up on it.

There is room for all kinds of musicians and music. Spanish guitar and David Gilmour are counter-examples to any claim that guitarists need to use their pinkies a lot! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I have to learn about "2-5-1". I saw Julian Lage and he has a YouTube video where he discusses jazz progressions, and indeed 2-5-1 are the first words in the video. He also has a video from his childhood where he does a Maggot Brain duet with Carlos Santana. (19:18, 18 September 2012 (UTC))

Conti is very good, of course. Conti's left fingers fly-off into outerspace, which I suppose makes his playing more visually interesting. Fripp's hover over the strings, and my kind guitar-store owner told me that all lead guitarists have minimal finger movements. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:35, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Mahavishnu and Paco de Lucia are amazing, and both keep their fingers in orbit over their strings, unlike Conti: Too many notes for my taste. I prefer more traditionally melodic and lyrical music. Fripp once interviewed McClaughlin by the way, and I think their discussion is on line somewhere. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh I quite agree that complex jazz is not something you always want to listen to. Too much of Conti would get irritating, too many notes, too much staccato, but technically and fretboard knowledge he's a great person to learn from as opposed to listen to. I regularly listen to the "simple" guitarists like Clapton and such which sound melodically great rather than a technical whizz but I can't lisen to them for too long either without wanting to see more "impressive" playing. Lots of people laud Allan Holdsworth as the best player in the world but to me the vast majority of his music is horribly dischordal and lacking what music is supposed to be out. He's a technical genius but too much so. I like players with a lot of sophistication and technical ability but who are also melodic and fine musicians. Personally I think Larry Carlton is arguably the best electric player in terms of both which are quite rare. See this Yeah Al di Meola and John McLaughlin tend to go into mindless shred mode and play weird stuff, much prefer Paco de Lucia. DiMeola often sounds like a wasp in jam jar with his fasting plecrum acoustic shredding. If tone and sweetness "turns you on" Larry Carlton is definitely a guitarist to get into. This is a classic Room 335 its called. When you have a moment check out On Solid Ground on youtube both my dad and I rate it as one of the best albums we've ever heard. just enter the track name and Larry Calrton on youtube and you'll find it. Here's a sweet taster of one of the tracks here. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:31, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Allan Holdworth has played with many talented musicians.

A musicologist friend took me to see John Cage, and he loved it. I didn't understand it or see the point of sustained discordance. There's discordance in King Crimson's Red album, but it's resolved into concordance or at least into beautiful melodies that ache.

Sometimes, if I see somebody "shredding" (or any heavy metal guitarist), I think that they are to music what is to beauty, or the Irish Elk was to evolution---too much obsession about antler size. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:11, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah its called maturity, I feel the same! As a teenager and early 20s I used to come from the "faster is better" school of guitar. But they don't impress me much any more I'm much more impressed by a sweet but meticulously planned jazz solo. My dad send me an email last night on a Rippingtons track which Zakk Wylde guested on and the solo sounds really synthetic and just like he's playing fast scales. Rippingtons are usually jazzy though! See 3:25 onwards of the link. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:08, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

A man's gotta know his limitations...

KW indeed has a fever, and shall wait a while before discussing whether Kolmogorov or von Neumann or Gibbs or Fourier is more important than Turing and Gödel or Tesla (or the other weirdos featured in the bargain section of Barnes & Noble). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:18, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

More tone

• Listen to this for tone!♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

He's really good. :) And I love his Adrian Belew hair-progression, also! On the other hand, I feel that the music could sometimes be improved if the guitarist was not the center of attention. (But now, 5:57, in "So What (1997) on YouTube, he's made me smile.) When Julian Lage played in Scandinavia recently, he was up front, but the other guys often had the leads.

I do like Carleton's melodic songs, which include some of my favorites (and my wife's, such as the Philadelphia Soul songs...). This is a case where Carleton isn't playing too much or getting in the way of the music. I should listen again. Sometimes it's rewarding to listen closely to an arrangement that superficially sounds conventional, and then try to understand what's happening. My sandbox has a draft article on a Crafty guitarist who has interesting pieces, which took some time to appreciate, because I didn't understand that he was playing different guitar tracks.... Reimagining a song that originally featured Steve Howe must be a challenge for any guitarist, I think! :)

I like to think of Pat Metheny, whom you mentioned before. When he plays, I think the music comes first. (Fripp is probably the most extreme in trying to avoid the spotlight.)

I'm going to try to practice the next time the baby is awake. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Mr. 335 is great, but like so many others he's greatest playing in other people's compositions in other people's bands. I used to love this kind of music, and then...I'll leave it at that. What's with that picture? that awful haircut and the weird Tele? Oh, I got a couple of Mike Stern albums for sale...on vinyl...hardly played... Drmies (talk) 14:43, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you know E lydian type phrasing? I've been playing it a lot recently, Steve Vai uses it a lot but he tends to go overboard on the shred. Basically the fourth mode of a B major scale. Forgive me if you can play it, E, F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E,. Play those sort of notes on the 7 fret 5th strong from the E. Now slide up an E5 bar shape 2nd fret 4th string, 4th fret 3rd string slide that up to the 4th fret and 6th and 4th, 2nd then 4th then play the following chord Middle finger 6th fret 4th string, index finger 4th fret 3rd string, pinky 7th fret 2nd string and ring finger 6th fret first string on the A# (B flat note). E lydian chord. G # minor arpeggios and stuff work well over it. I've been improvising a lot recently over that sort of thing and intrducing F whole tone in with it. It sounds really good although like Vai I can't but help an immaturely play the odd tapped arpeggio. Here's the sound of E lydian here here. Sounds good if you ignoring the mindless shredding further on! Vai probably represents everything you hate about certain guitar players though LOL, he's essentially a show off, flamboyant, faster is better and often off focus and mindless. He can get real irritating, I mean the 3 neck guitar says it all! But that's the E lydian sound I was pointing out anyway..♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't listen much to Vai, but I know that he's more than the devil's guitarist in Crossroads. :) Fripp has stated that Vai is a more dedicated and better guitarist, and I think that Fripp has also volunteerd that a song of Vai's (For the Love of God) is one of his all time favorite instrumental songs. I think that Vai meditates and thinks about what he's eating, for health and to avoid causing pain, etc., and seems to be a good guy. I have nothing but respect for him.

C.f. Zappa:I like Zappa primarily for his training of Adrian Belew and other good musicians; I trust my musician friends who tell me that they love Zappa and that his music rewards attentive listening, as a proposition applying to sophisticates. He just doesn't do anything for me, except for his joke songs of satire or weirdness, of which a little joke about orgasmic dysfunction ("dynamo, dynamo") or "yellow snow" goes a long way. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 14:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Shawn Lane

Just been studying Shawn Lane's video on youtube. Some excellent ideas. I've been working out and drawing up a tab for his likes in here, especially the F# harmonic minor lick and the G mixolydian lick nearer the end see this.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

He seems to have been a nice fellow. It's sad that musicians so often have trouble getting medical care in the USA.

Take a look at the dominant sevenths discussion at guitar chords, please, in which Hyacinth's responses have turned from laconic to draconic. At most one of us can be right, and both of us may well be nuts. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

My copy of Tonal harmony by Kotska, Payne, and Almén arrived today. In half a year, I may know something about modes and understand a bit about what Fripp's directions improvisation in "A Dorian scale" means, with my playing. On the other hand, my verbal abilities trump my hand-eye coordination (although I have quick reflexes), and so I would be far more productive learning songs by Cat Stevens and Bob Dylan---and writing malicious but hopefully funny doggerel like a mathematician from Harvard than worrying about fast players. I would like to reconnect with prosody and verse, and better understand rhythm. Perhaps I can put Karl Shapiro's "Auto Wreck" to music? (C.f., Dig Me) ;) More seriously, it's hard to practice guitar with my baby girl needing to sleep, etc., and I'd rather play with her than my guitar when she's awake, so I've not made much progress lately, but I'm happy. I can write more quietly than I can practice. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:54, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

A Dorian, 2nd mode of G major, pretty basic think of it as an A minor scale with a sharp 6th. you can use it to play over an Aminor 7 to D 7/9 blues type funk.

Anyway See these: ♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm looking for the biggest book of guitar licks/exercises I can find, know of any?♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:30, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Here's advice that I've read:

• Listen to a jazz clarinetist or saxophonist. They cannot play chords, so their solos must be very interesting.
• Play one string for six months (or two hours ...).
• Learn a lot of great songs, especially a lot of great songs by a few guitarists.

Write your own songs. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, not many saxophonists can play chords. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

When I watched a documentary about congenitally joined twins, who shared 20-30% of each other's brains, I thought that with genetic engineering, one could build a human super computer. Now, I think that it would be more feasible to build a multi-saxophonist to play chords. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:51, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Not just feasible, but commercially quite successful. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I know very little, but I am trying to do a few things well and in a state of relaxation, before I expand my skills. Because I've switched from OST (on a crappy acoustic) to (on an Ovation Celebrity) NST to augmented-fourths to major thirds (which seems like paradise), my left-hand progress has been slow, although my sinisterity and stamina have improved. I feel comfortable with alternate picking, now. I noticed that I had a dipthong slide when I switched between my index and pinkie finger, so I've been practicing with clarity. My right-hand has made steady progress, especially since I bought a metronome and lately have been using the metronome on Guitar Pro. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Scales and chord progessions

oh I do, I'm always listening to Stan Getz, Charlie Parker, Bill Evans etc trying to work things out. I have a book of jazz guitar licks in piano notation and its very difficult to work out! A dorian/A minor blues recommend jamming to this. Save it on cd. Its basically only A minor 7 to D 9/D minor 9 and the occasional B minor 7 flat 5 and E7 alt but its essentially a 2-5 jam A minor to D. Basically the F sharp is the key note here, the sharp 6th of the A minor scale which makes it A dorian, which is also the major third of the D9 chord, and the major 7 of a G major 7 chord. So slur and slide into F sharp playing all with it and play A minor blues/dorian type phrasing and you'll sound like a god like me hehe! I also add in an A melodic minor on occasion to throw in some extra spice, basically the same as Dorian but with a G sharp raised 7th instead of G, a flat 7th.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:22, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

OK I'm giving you and Dennis a headache with my theory knowledge..♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:57, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Dr. Blofeld, but it's difficult now to read anything serious, and especially given my lack of knowledge of chord theory, your postings are over my head. I shall be delighted to be able to play major, dominant sevenths, and minor chords fluently on the fretboard, and to be able to connect such chords in stereotypical but beautiful progressions. :)

When guitarists start talking about "D 9/D minor 9 and the occasional B minor 7 flat 5" it brings to memory junior-high discussions of bras :) and :( of my Kentucky relatives' genealogical discussions---which rivaled Icelandic OCD-sufferers for the precision of "2nd cousin thrice removed ...", which did give me headaches. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:35, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Altered tunings

Funny but I think the same thing about altered tunings! It gives me a headache as you literally have to learn reprogamme your mind and learn a new "language" to play in altered tunings...♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

As a beginner, I don't worry about declaring a loss on my years of investment in remembering two inversions times two+ drops x 3+ chord-positions for each chord. In fact, I am relieved not to have to let ad-hockeries so encumber my experience of music.

It may be that major-thirds tuning is worth learning, for standard guitarists, when they wish to compose music or understand music theory: My fretboard is my friend. I don't think that a beginning guitarist in standard tuning can say that. ;) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:45, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The way of dexterity

I seriously worked on my picking by doing the Guitar Craft first primary exercise, which can be seen on the "Careful with that Axe" video, perhaps one among part 4 (after 5:20, especially 6:40---and remember that these are advanced Crafties..., not beginners). I also used a new pick (since my sweat had warn away the grippers on the old). The sound was much better than in weeks. It really helped to align my alternate picking, really economy picking. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:27, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Melodic minor

This set of lessons is well worth it. He looks the most unlikely guitarist to be knowledgeable and intelligent, looks more like he belongs in San Quentin, but never judge a book by its cover. You might find something useful from him..♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:33, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

It looked good, but such scales are just over my head.

He looks like a regular guitarist, to me. Having been a fan of the Pixies/Frank Black, Blues Traveler, and Pere Ubu, I am willing to listen with my ears even if the lead-singer is not pouting like a boy-band heart-throb. ;)

Speaking of pouting: Polish tapping guitarist Adam Fulara made this video after reading idiots' complaints that he needed more showmanship(compare). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm trying to learn the major chords and their standard progressions, still. Now our daughter is sleeping longer but she is more awake then ever, and so I'd much rather play with her than practice. I am trying to improve the guitar chords article still. I suppose some discussion of open chords in major-thirds tunings, with open notes and duplication (using Sethares and Griewank), would be useful.

Maybe you could check on whether the Mel Bay (extended?) method has the same 15 basic chords that Denyer and Kolb/coauthor have? Maybe somebody in the UK can look at the Rock/Guitar School curriculum? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:47, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Have you ever check out 4th chords, replacing the third with the fourth. This is quite good The F shape is the coolest!♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

That's a very interesting video. In major-thirds tuning, four consecutive fourths are very attractive for arpeggios, I think.

I see how Robert Fripp loves to make V--W diagonal shapes on 2--4 frets/strings (in OST or NST). Its nice to know that one can make similar diagonal arpeggios systematically!

Keep the suggestions coming! Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Nobel Prize for Lloyd Shapley: Shapley–Folkman lemma needs FA copy-editing

Today mathematician Lloyd Shapley won the Nobel Prize in Economics, and so Nobel Week would be a good time for a related featured-article.

The featured-article nomination for Shapley–Folkman lemma was stalled because of concerns about the professional-prose criterion. Thanks a lot, Geometry guy! ;D

Help with copy-editing would be great.

In my dreams, I could imagine an animated illustration ... :)

Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:26, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Major thirds tuning

Just been looking at your article on major thirds tuning, and it's almost persuaded me to get my guitar out again after heaven knows how many years. If I can understand it and make it work I may even do the GA review, God help you. Malleus Fatuorum 18:22, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

That article probably needs another day of clean-up by me for it really to be at GA status. The Ralph-Patt article is better organized and more carefully written, I think; it was the shortest article and the least time-commitment of any Good Article I've had---but it was the article I wrote in part in the hospital..., so it has magical associations for me. :) I feel good writing an article about Patt, who seems to have been a very nice fellow and mensch.

I think that M3 tuning makes guitar playing much easier, as long as you don't have to play around camp-fires. With amplification, there is no need to throw in all the open and barre notes possible in every chord, as in standard-tuning.

M3 tuning also a lot easier on the hands and forearms. :)

Regardless of the tuning, it's better to start playing around frets 4-7 or 8-11, where your fingers don't need to stretch so much, and you don't strain to hit the lowest notes. Of course, it's a lot easier to play open-notes of the standard-tuning, but then the jump to the rest of the fretboard must be monumental....

Cheers, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

P.S. These are the (light) gauges I use for a steel-string guitar having a scale of 25.25 inches:

There are different recommendations from Ole Kirkeby, who doesn't declare his scale-length: Kirkeby is certainly vastly more knowledgeable and experienced than me. He also has suggestions for jazz-guitar and classical guitar. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I forgot to warn you that you need an electronic tuner for major-thirds tuning, for reasons explained by Griewank. It doesn't work to tune by ear, using the fourth fret on the current string to tune the next string. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Speed kills

You've heard the term fret wanking right for mindless shredders. The King of all Fret Wankers, plus he looks like Maculay Kulkin to boot. He should never be allowed to touch a guitar!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:05, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll have to look at it. Thanks! :) Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

In fact, there is a fellow who hit 1300 bpm. It reminds me too much of the Wild, Wild West episode with the speeding-up potion (Season 1, Episode 26, The Night of the Burning Diamonds"). Alas, it did not have your distinguished colleague, Dr. Lovelace. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

1300 bpm! Try something more tasteful. That goes for you Dennis too, listen to this one, love it. Looks like a 1992 Andre Agassi with Jack Sugden from Emmerdale.. Its a C# minor 7, B, A, mostly, and then B7, E major, something interesting chord voicing in it, the B and A are major 9ths I think. I can play most of it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:25, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

An antidote. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 23:47, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

The flamenco guitar duo was great. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:12, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

How about this?♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Following ANI discussion

In response your comment at my talk page - the first part of your comment makes no sense can you explain clearer please? Regarding the second part - no I wasn't banned from your talk page, but I posted on your talk page twice and you immediately reverted twice. That indicated that you did not wish to discuss the matter. GiantSnowman 12:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Your stating that your having insulted MF as a paranoid "might not have been the most-constructive comment" suggests that you are in a state of denial. You need to own up to your behavior. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:51, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I wrote an example of the kind of correction and accountability you should have displayed on MF's page. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

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• EdwardsBot (talk) 21:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for taking the time to participate in my RfA. I hope that I will be able to improve based on the feedback I received and become a better editor. AutomaticStrikeout 02:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Good luck in the future. It must be nice to receive so many nice compliments from many editors. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 02:50, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes. It's not fun seeing all the opposes, but they were mostly friendly opposes (that just doesn't sound right). If your perspective is right and you don't have any skeletons in your closet, what is there to lose in trying? If you're already not an admin, you can't become any more not an admin than you already are. It's not like you necessarily have anything to lose. AutomaticStrikeout 02:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Tell me about it. I think the lowest point of my time here was my first RfA, back in 2007; it still pisses me off even now. The idea that you're not trusted is a difficult one to come to terms with, but in your case all it will take is time. I on the other hand am a hopeless case. :-) Malleus Fatuorum 03:07, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

It is better to remember that the universe came into existence 15 billion years ago, and our sun 5 billion years ago. We have a billion years before the sun irradiates the earth, and the nearest neighbor is apparently only a lava world fit only for denizens of ANI. ;)

There is plenty to do just writing articles and trying to help other members of the community. There have been some recent books on Jewish major-league baseball players that may interest you: Moe Berg could speak 7 languages but couldn't hit in any of them. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Automatic, I got lucky on mine: all the mean people were on vacation. You're a fine editor, and you may well become a fine admin. Now, can I rant at Kiefer? Kiefer, you frigging liberal, will you fix the coding on this page? Even your talk page is leaning left--don't make it so obvious! Or are you waiting on the next Jack sock to fix it? Get on it man. (And how's fatherhood? Our boy started smiling recently--makes up for a lot of crying and farting.) Drmies (talk) 03:11, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Mamma knows to avoid kiwis and caffeine to avoid having our daughter cry for hours. Some probiotics have reduced the trumpets of Jericho from sounding at 4 am. Now, she is letting us know who is boss. We have to play the blinking sun playing 15-second music-snippets or face complaints. This morning, she showed that she may be an actress. There is nothing like a baby's frown to show you the meaning of :(.

I had to borrow her pacifier last night---like a Manchester raver---watching Romney and Obama. "My passion comes from my belief in God"(c.f.), etc.

Drmies, you may appreciate Loudon Wainwright III's thought on the father--son relations.

I don't understand the coding issue. The GAs and DYKs are crowded, but I've been too lazy to fix them. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations, double barnstars for you!

	The Good Article Barnstar and Music Barnstar
	I congratulate for you tireless efforts on editing Ralph Patt to good article. You are, certainly, welcome for your ostentatiously valuable vast efforts for the mystery of music and honor of Misplaced Pages. --GoShow (............................) 17:37, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much, GoShow! Your barnstars made my day! Best regards, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:05, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for your (re)consideration. I hope my answer to the plagiarism question doesn't put you back into oppose. I agree what the nominee in the other RfA did was poor form, but I think he's getting a crash course in close paraphrasing right now, which is why I ended up supporting him, since there don't seem to be other problems. Gigs (talk) 16:25, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

My wrath about the Assange case and your forthright (erroneous) disagreement misled my reason. You did accept the talk page consensus, reasonably and civilly, and I believe you have otherwise shown that you can be trusted to use the tools in the spirit of consensus. We need honest and intelligent administrators, since we have not found angels to govern us. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

If you're *trying* to ensure Malleus gets banned...

...you're doing one hell of a job. If you're trying to defend him, however, then not so much. Please, please, please, dial it back several notches. It doesn't look too likely right now, but I'd really love to see Malleus stick around, and regardless of what he decides he wants to do, that can't happen if he's sitebanned. Just this once, consider his continued participation more valuable than the joy of getting more kicks in at ArbCom. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Floquenbeam,

The honest members of ArbCom won't take out on Malleus any anger at me. To Hell with the others.

The ArbCom institution has my respect. SirFozzie used to have it, and I think he's realized that he's acted imprudently, and I trust that he should like to do what's right, even if it means backing down. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Except the ones you think are dishonest have a vote too, so "to hell with them" doesn't mesh with "I hope Malleus sticks around". I'm not asking you to lie, or say something you don't believe, or whisper sweet nothings into SirFozzie's ear. Just please stop screaming at them. it feels good, but it doesn't help. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

You overestimate my powers of infuriating persons not already in Hell. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:33, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps. But what if you're underestimating them? --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:35, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, now that you mention it, I have underestimated those powers on occasion.... I had already concluded my contributions to the ArbCom page, and I should like to think that SirFozzie will think about how his motion looks, this week, after the personal attacks against Malleus and the ANI apologetics for the "paranoia" charge. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 20:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Hey..

Someone pointed me at your comment, and there's a lot I want to say here, but A) don't know if I'd be welcome, and B) was about to head to sleep (it being midnight here on the east coast). Do you want to discuss this via email (my page is open), or via a talk page? (yours, mine, doesn't matter). First of all, I didn't arrive at deciding to file the motion easily, or quickly. Was some of it frustration that we have to deal with comments like those Malleus Made shortly after we almost opened a case? Yes, I'll freely admit there was some frustration there. However, what led me down this path was the following: Before I could judge the complaint, I was immediately sidetracked by the comments Malleus made (the dishonest fuckers/twats comment). This is what I meant about incivil comments diverting attention from bona fide complaints to a side show. Malleus's comments had the affect of taking attention away from the main issue (Malleus at RFA, whether the ban was working or whether it needed to be modified and put it on yet another re-run of "Malleus is incivil, Volume 81". That's why I originally directed him to stop the personal attacks. I know not everyone agrees that civility should be enforced, or in what way, but it is a pillar of Misplaced Pages. As Brad, Tony, and folks more eloquent then myself explained, it it a serious issue with Malleus and becomes the focus of all discussions around Malleus.

Misplaced Pages is a collaborative environment. You have to work with people you disagree with and find disagreeable. I've fallen short of this myself (dealing with a reincatnation of one of Misplaced Pages's most annoying serial vandals/sockpuppeters).. and just like I called Malleus out on it, someone called me out on it. This administrator, who was attempting to help me resolve this issue, told me exactly what I'm saying here.. by lowering myself to that level, I obscured the point I was trying to make. That's what the other person wanted, because then they could point to ME as the extremist in the discussion.

Then, I saw his passionate defense of his right to call people that, that he'd consider himself an obsequious coward if he DIDN'T call people fuckers and twats, and I just sat back and said "Ok. This isn't working. As much as some people disagree with how civility should be enforced, it's still the law of the land (and the majority view in the civility enforcement RFC is that it should be enforced).. Malleus has now basically said that no matter what we do, short of banning him, he's going to continue down this path, because he feels he has a right and duty to make these comments.

So, I proposed the ban, but made it very clear that should Malleus agree to work within the lines, so to speak, that I'd rescind it in an instant.. no zero tolerance, none of that. I even made it a time-limited ban instead of indefinite (as several other arbs wanted.) As I said, I knew any ban that required Malleus to come to the Committee to ask for his right to edit restored would be indefinite, but as in permanent. If he came back and just toned it down a bit, that would satisfy me (not that I'd be on the Committee when he returns). That's all I want, really.. If Malleus would just stay within the bounds of civility in his replies, if other people are hectoring him, it'd be easier for him to point that out, that they're the ones in the wrong, to prevent it from becoming "Hey! Look at Malleus insult people!" yet again. There's ways to disagree, even to vehemently disagree without going to that length.

Quite frankly, I'm pissed at JClemens. I find what he said to be completely wrong. I've said that. Risker's said that. Brad's said that. I just went and struck my vote for the ban motion to get it below the passing level while this final outreach to Malleus is active. All he has to do is work towards moderating his behavior, before he calls someone an objectionable term, figure if there's a way that he can say it WITHOUT turning everyone's attention to HIS comments. I don't want to ban Malleus. If I did, I wouldn't go to these lengths to try to keep him around. He does a ton of great content work.. stuff I could never do. The best possible outcome for Malleus to stay, continue his good GA/FA work, and soften the edges a bit. That's what I'm hoping for. I'm sorry if this decision has made you lose respect for me, even after I've described where I'm coming from here, I'm sorry to hear that. But I stand by my actions here. SirFozzie (talk) 04:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Much Ado about cunts, twats, and (in the future) quims

Hi SirFozzie!

A look at Malleus's talk page shows that I have tried to help out when my help might help---including when I have thought that he could disengage from a conflict, as recently with Dr. Blofeld (where both were needlessly escalating at every turn, until they both resolved to focus on editing).

I don't defend his use of referring to "dishonest cunts", although I am familiar with enough Scotsmen that I understand that somebody from Manchester (Northern England) uses "cunt" frequently.

I do object to any mischaracterization of his editing as "uncivil" or "non-collaborative", because anybody who looks at his talk page or contributions can see that he is helping others more than anybody else on Misplaced Pages (or at least as well as the other saints).

I have raised the issue of equity, before, but you have not replied to it, directly. Malleus is being subjected to personal attacks and incivility, sometimes unintentional by persons with poor English or without benevolence, and ArbCom has failed to address such attacks, most recently "paranoia". You motioned to ban him for months because he said that he may in the future say "dishonest twat" if he sees a dishonest twat, while this in the last days he was called paranoid (and this was called "not a problem" or only "not constructive" at ANI). This is an atmosphere were Malleus is being attacked now, and you motioned to ban him for 6 months for announcing his intention to call a dishonest twat a "dishonest twat".

User:Mogism suggested a remedy that at least seemed to have the appearance of equity, and could be considered.

Consequently, your motion was ill-advised at any time but (besides being improper, according to my limited understanding of ArbCom procedures) also premature yesterday. I am glad that you and NYB have sought to engage Malleus in dialogue, and you can see from his response to such discussions that he will discuss the conflicts with you reasonably.

You have justly tried to stop your motion from passing prematurely, for the good of Misplaced Pages, and I think for justice with Malleus. I trust that you all may continue a dialog---perhaps by email---and work out a good solution.

Sincerely, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)