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Revision as of 16:33, 24 October 2012

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The apricot tree

not only flowered, but bore abundant fruit, and I'm happy to see the metaphor applies. Welcome back Nishidani (talk) 12:31, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I wondered about that. :-) NinaGreen (talk) 15:41, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Anne de Mortimer

Thanks for trying to help. I notice that the spammy query about the artist is 8 years old, from an IP, included two spamlinks, and was unsigned. Of course, if the other Anne is in fact notable, then she's notable.

I also wanted to thank you for your work on Anne de Mortimer herself. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:43, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! And thanks for the heads up on the spammy query. NinaGreen (talk) 16:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Help request

I noticed your help page request. If you find an image to append to the end of the lead section of an article, or find a really tall object or image to put at the top of the lead, it will extend downward into the space to the right of the table of contents. See Muhammad or Jesus for example. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the very useful hint! NinaGreen (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Richard , Earl of Cambridge Paternity Question

I was wondering if you could direct me to where you found the info that Richard of Conisburgh, 3rd Earl of Cambridge may be the product of an affair his mother had. The affair between Isabella and the Duke of Exeter is reported in the year 1379, 6 years before the birth of her son, Richard. How long did the affair last and does this have anything to do with the story The Complaint of Mars by Chaucer?

Your statement which I'm assuming you added seeing how you've edited more than a few things on that page within a few 24 hrs. --
Richard was twelve years younger than his brother, Edward of Norwich, 2nd Duke of York, and may have been the child of an illicit liaison between his mother and John Holland, 1st Duke of Exeter, since he received no lands from his putative father, Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York, and is not mentioned in his will.
-- Lady Meg (talk) 04:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, I added the statement. I found it in the source I cited, the ODNB article by Harriss. This is how it appears in Harriss's ODNB article:

Richard was twelve years younger than his brother Edward, duke of York (c.1373–1415), and may have been the product of his mother's illicit liaison with John Holland, earl of Huntingdon (d. 1400), for neither his father nor his brother provided him with land or income and neither mentioned him in his will.

Harriss cites a number of sources at the end of his article, but it's not apparent on the face of these sources where Harriss himself got the idea. You mention that the affair was reported in 1379. Perhaps it might be worth adding that source to the article? NinaGreen (talk) 15:13, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The "affair" was brought up in 1379 via a poem/story by Chaucer where people thought that the characters in the poem represented Isabella and Exeter. So it confuses me as to how something became "known" via a poem in 1379 and the child was thus born years later. I would think by that time, if the affair had been outed, she would have either been divorced or banished to a nunnery instead of "going back to her husband." I seriously wonder if Harriss was commenting on the poem or not which explains:

The 'Compleynt of Mars' an occasional poem of very peculiar character which Chaucer wrote at his request. It refers to incidents which seem to have taken place in the spring of 1379 viz an episode in the chronicle of scandals at the English court of that time. As may be imagined the subject of the poem is presented in an allegorical disguise. The veil indeed is not exactly transparent but the initiated must undoubtedly have known who was meant by Mars and who by Venus. According to the tradition established in the reign of Henry VI by a disciple and copier of Chaucer, Mars represented John Holland third son of Thomas Earl of Kent afterwards Earl of Huntingdon and Duke of Exeter and the Venus of the poem was Isabella, Countess of Edmund Earl of Cambridge who was made Duke of York in 1386. John of Gaunt was doubly related to this Venus Isabella who is reported by a chronicler as being 'mulier mollis et delicata' and towards the close of her life 'satis pxnitens et conversa.' Holland also came after a time into family relationship with Chaucer's patron by marrying Elizabeth the divorced Countess of Pembroke who was a daughter of Blanche and John of Gaunt. The whole atmosphere in this affair is not at all refreshing; John of Gaunt may have followed with a malicious pleasure the progress of the adulterous connection between John Holland and the Countess of Cambridge and when at length a kind of catastrophe supervened he shook with laughter and Chaucer had to write out the story for him in flowing rhymes. In order to escape the growing suspicion and to enjoy each other with less disturbance it appears the enamored couple had agreed upon a short separation with a subsequent assignation at a remote castle belonging to the absent Earl of Cambridge John Holland went there first Isabella soon followed by a circuitous route... It continues on page 75, It is not absolutely certain that the above outline is correct in every point. Possibly we should consider the situation as abstract rather than local and concrete, there may have been obstacles to close intercourse rather than intervening distance instead of surprise in a castle there may have been merely a threatened discovery of their love affairs and a consequent constraint to suspend for a time their intimacy. But the affair as it actually happened was certainly not wanting in many realistic and pungent touches. History of English Literature -- Lady Meg (talk) 21:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this information. Harriss doesn't mention this literary evidence in his cited sources, although he might well have been aware of it, and put it together with the fact that Richard wasn't given any lands by his father, and wasn't mentioned in either his father's or his brother's wills to reach the conclusion that Richard may have been the child of an affair between his mother and Holland. I've changed the statement to attribute the conjecture specifically to Harriss in the text of the article. Perhaps we can both look around for further mention of the alleged affair in other reliable sources, and depending on what we find, alter the article accordingly? NinaGreen (talk) 15:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't help wondering, Lady Meg, what weight should we give to a tradition established in the reign of Henry VI, two or three generations after the events? Moonraker (talk) 22:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Good job on 15th earl. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! NinaGreen (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)