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Article milestones Date Process Result June 3, 2006 Articles for deletion No consensus June 17, 2006 Peer review Reviewed July 15, 2006 Articles for deletion Speedily kept August 11, 2006 Articles for deletion No consensus April 4, 2007 Articles for deletion Kept April 24, 2007 Articles for deletion No consensus June 26, 2007 Articles for deletion Speedily kept September 4, 2007 Articles for deletion No consensus June 11, 2008 Articles for deletion No consensus August 21, 2010 Articles for deletion Kept

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Archives

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The main discussion area for this series of articles was at: WP:APARTHEID

melanie phillips

marokwitz and malik feel that the following is not related to the article (and i do, of course). she specifically refers to tutu's comparison of israel and apartheid south africa. how does that not fit here? help me understand it.

British journalist Melanie Phillips has criticized Desmond Tutu for comparing Israel to Apartheid South Africa, in article which appeared in The Guardian in 2002, where Tutu stated that people are scared to say the "Jewish lobby" in the U.S. is powerful. "So what?" he asked. "The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust." Phillips wrote of Tutu's article: "I never thought that I would see brazenly printed in a reputable British newspaper not only a repetition of the lie of Jewish power but the comparison of that power with Hitler, Stalin and other tyrants. I never thought I would see such a thing issuing from a Christian archbishop."

thanks. Soosim (talk) 06:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Here Dershowitz calls Phillips' views "extremist", which is quite amazing, coming from him. --Dailycare (talk) 18:43, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Please read WP:COATRACK. The paragraph is an attack on Tutu that has nothing to do with Israel or the apartheid analogy. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:05, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Marokwitz (talk) 08:24, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

How can you defend Tutu, when at the same time, you are assaulting entire nation? Melanie Philips just described, what Tutu did. That does not constitute an attack on him.--AsiBakshish (talk) 21:54, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Heribert Adam and Kogila Moodley

The opinions of Adam and Moodley are massively overrepresented in the current article. The exposition of their opinions needs to be trimmed and put into the appropriate section (criticism of the Apartheid analogy) where it belongs. Dlv999 (talk) 07:35, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

This is wrong. They are not critics of the analogy, rather analyze the analogy in their book, pointing to similarities and dissimilarities. Read their book. They are as closer to a "secondary, reliable source" than the vast majority of the sources used in this article.Marokwitz (talk) 08:15, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

They are certainly highly qualified to comment on the topic and are an excellent source for the article, but they are largely critical of the analogy, although as you rightly point out there criticism contains many reservations and they do find similarities between the two regimes. It is wrong to frame the whole article based on one book that has come out largely against the analogy, just as it would be wrong to frame the article purely on the basis of one publication that has supported the analogy - Say Jimmy Carter's book. This material is criticism of the analogy and should be put in the appropriate section. Dlv999 (talk) 08:25, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

It would be highly inaccurate to label them as critics or supporters of the analogy. In fact, if you look at the history of this article, they were for a very long time in the "supporters" section until I fixed that. The state of this article is extremely poor, judging by academic criteria. I think it is crucial that we reduce the amount of op-es cited in this article and focus on what balanced, reliable secondary sources say, even if this means trimming down this article dramatically. That is why I feel that this book is an extremely important source that should be emphasized, along with other , academic-level, reliable publications on the topic. I really don't feel it is a good idea to give op-eds the same weight that we give reliable secondary sources. Don't you agree? Marokwitz (talk) 08:39, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

No one is saying that an academic level publication should be treated the same as an op-ed, but framing the whole article with an extended exposition of the views of two authors from one cited publication, who largely came out against the analogy, is not neutral. Dlv999 (talk) 08:55, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Can we at least agree that labeling them as either "supporters" or "critics" of the analogy would be against their own views, and original research? I don't see why simply moving this section outside of the "supporters" vs "critics" debate would result in "framing the whole article with an extended exposition of the views of two authors". In any case, I will look for additional reliable sources that give a balanced overview of the topic and try to incorporate those as well. Marokwitz (talk) 10:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not willing to concede the points about Adam and Moodley. But your proposal on how to move the article forward seems reasonable. If the Analysis by Adam and Moodley section can include the viewpoints of (at least) several other academic level sources so that it is more of a general overview of scholarly opinion on the topic, rather than just a detailed exposition of the position of 1 cited work then my objections would disappear. Dlv999 (talk) 13:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok. I am searching for additional reliable secondary sources in order to provide a more general overview of scholarly opinion on the topic and hopefully make this article rely less on op-eds/primary sources. Already found one good source, looking for more. Let's see how that works out. Marokwitz (talk) 13:29, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Dialog poll

I reverted the edits regarding the Dialog poll because they stated opinions as if they were facts (e.g., "the significance was difficult to assess due to the question's formulation", "the conductors admitted that the term 'apartheid' may not have been clear enough"). — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 02:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Initially, an article from Haaretz that reported on a poll was put into the article, including the lead. I added some more information from another RS (Times of Israel article) which discussed some of the methodology of the article (it was not an op-ed) and had some additional information.

This was reverted by RolandR, who said he was reverting POV edits, because they “attempt to hide this survey and remove evidence of positive support for apartheid.” This edit summary itself is a POV - any info that goes against the poll and does not show "positive support for apartheid" should be removed. Hence, a removal of reliably referenced info, in order to hide any flawed methodology or controversy over the poll to make it seem as though the results show most Israelis believe Israel is an apartheid state, which itself is POV. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason to remove reliably referenced info. Then a revert, a revert...

So now what are we left with? Well, instead of fixing any POV that editors felt there was, we now have the polar POV. We have a poll in the lead that purports to show that Israelis, using a sample of 500 people out of 6 million, believe their country is Apartheid. There is not any mention of the additional information provided in the Times of Israel reference, which discussed its methodology, the fact that the questions weren’t clear, etc. It gives a completely wrong impression in favor of a POV. Firstly, it shouldn’t even be in the lead, which just gives general overview of support/against arguments, rather than specifics.

Instead of removing reliably referenced information, why don’t instead fix any POV problems? As it stands right now, a POV has been created in order to provide “evidence of positive support for apartheid,” to quote RolandR.

Mr. Shabazz, specifically what is wrong with those two sentences you cited? They are both directly from a reliable reference, which is not an op-ed but a news piece. I can see an issue with the word "admitted," but why not just change that to "said" instead of simply pushing revert and removing this? Critical information has been covered up that is incredibly misleading. --Jethro B 03:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec)The first example might need attribution, the second seems to be a fact? It's in the 5th paragraph of the ToI article. The way the article is left now is certainly an NPOV violation though. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The part in the lead is also obviously UNDUE. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Part of the POV in your edits is the effort to attribute the facts you don't like to Haaretz or Dialog, and state the facts you do like in Misplaced Pages's voice. Also, what does the NIF have to do with anything?

The number of people polled is a red herring. Statistical sampling always involves a small number of people (e.g., usually a few thousand or less for the United States, with its 300 million population).

I'm going to remove everything about the poll from the article until we can agree on how to present it in an NPOV fashion. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 03:10, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Mr. Shabazz, I appreciate simply removing the poll entirely from the article while we're discussing, as that takes POV issues into account.

Mr. Shabazz, I would appreciate it if good faith is assumed. I only have good-intentions, and I wanted to balance out the way this information was presented here. I did that to the best of my ability. Criticize it if you'd like, and improve it, and remove any POV that you find. That's part of Misplaced Pages, and I don't object to it. Obviously, just saying though that I attribute facts I don't like to Haaretz and facts I do to Misplaced Pages's voice doesn't help, as this was not my intention. If you can provide concrete examples and what is wrong with them, like the two you gave above, then we can work on fixing it all. I have no objections to that. What do you think of mine and NMMNG's comments regarding the two examples you gave? --Jethro B 03:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I apologize for the assumption of bad faith, Jethro.

I've drafted a paragraph that I think summarizes the salient points. Please let me know what you think. Feel free to edit the draft paragraph as you'd like. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 03:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Draft language

In September 2012, Dialog polled Israeli Jews regarding anti-Arab attitudes. The poll revealed that 38% favored annexing an unspecified amount of land in the West Bank with settlements and 48% opposed annexation. In the event that Israel annexes the West Bank, 69% of those surveyed favored preventing Palestinians from voting. The Times of Israel wrote that the significance of this response was "hard to assess" due to the question's formulation. 39% agreed that "there is apartheid in Israel in some ways", 19% agreed it was there "in most ways", 31% said "there is no apartheid at all", and 11% said they did not know. The pollsters said that the term "apartheid" may not have been clear enough to some of those interviewed. 24% believed that the existence of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank was "a good situation" and 50% believed it was "a necessary situation".

References

1. Tutu, Desmond. "Apartheid in the Holy Land, The Guardian, April 29, 2002, cited in Phillips, Melanie. "Christian Theology and the New Antisemitism" in Iganski, Paul & Kosmin, Barry. (eds) A New Anti-Semitism? Debating Judeophobia in 21st century Britain. Profile Books, 2003, p. 196.
2. ^ Levy, Gideon (23 October 2012). "Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel". Haaretz. Retrieved 23 October 2012.
3. Fisher, Gabe (23 October 2012). "Controversial survey ostensibly highlights widespread anti-Arab attitudes in Israel". The Times of Israel. Retrieved 23 October 2012.

Mr. Shabazz, all is fine in regards to the good-faith bad-faith. Don't worry about it. As for the draft, on a first glance I think it looks good, although it is late here and I'm too busy to spend a lot of time on it tonight, so I'll leave it open to others if anyone wants to comment and then respond afterwards when it's not that late and I have time. But thank you for being very responsible here and doing a good job, I admire that. --Jethro B 04:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Please, you can call me Malik. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:37, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok Malik, I've looked it over, and your draft seems fine. What will happen below, I don't know... --Jethro B 23:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Looks good. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I object to the complete removal of any reference to this from the article. On israeli matters, Haaretz is as reliable source as we can get, and it reported this as a major story on its front page; it is certainly notable, and should be included.

Nor do I agree with the proposed edit above, which suggests that the attitudes expressed only related to annexation of the 1967-occupied territories. The poll showed that a majority also favoured discrimination against Arab citizens of the state of Israel, with one third wanting to ban them from voting for the Knesset. 49% believe that the state should discriminate in favour of Jewish citizens, and 47% wanted to remove at least some Arab citizens from Israel to the PA. This is not dependent on annexation of the occupied territories, but relates to withdrawal, or a continuation of the status quo. I also think that this editt gives unndue weight to the alleged unclarity of the term "apartheid"; what is clear is that, according to the findings, "e interviewees did not object strongly to describing Israel's character as "apartheid" already today, without annexing the territories".

So I propose reinstating my original edit, and using that as the basis for further improvements, rather than omitteing any mention or using the version proposed above. RolandR (talk) 10:17, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

You made bold edit and you was reverted now we discuss per WP:BRD the apropriate language in Malik proposal is very reasonble and I agree with it but you may propose you own draft if you like--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 10:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the succinct original edit made by RR.

• There can be no question this belongs to the page.
• The proposed draft is too long and detailed for a lead, indeed automatically by its length prejudices the question as to the inclusion of this into the lead. It assumes this datum cannot be put into the lead, but must be included lower down. No doubt there should be expansion lower down (including the differential data regarding religious and ethnic breakdowns of voting patterns)
• The text reverses the order of prominence in the main source, downplaying what the news was focused on. Both the title, and the opening paragraphs of Levy's article highlight an Israeli majority for an apartheid regime in the case of WB annexation, and discriminatory practices against Israeli Arabs.
• Having reversed the article's focus, it rewrites its language:
• 'Over a third (38 percent ) of the Jewish public wants Israel to annex the territories with settlements on them, while 48 percent object,' is rephrased as
• 'The poll revealed that 38% favored annexing an unspecified amount of land in the West Bank with settlements.

Therefore, clarification is required why the brief sentence covering the essence of the polls two points (apartheid/West Bank and discrimination in Israel) cannot go in the lead, as is being assumed by the proposal.Nishidani (talk) 10:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The proposed "draft language" violates WP:NPOV. On the pertinent points it only gives the view published in TOI and not the different view (from the original news report) published in Haaretz, i.e. that "Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank." As nishiadani rightly points out, the proposed text totally downplays the focus of the news story, which also happens to be the topic of this Misplaced Pages article. Dlv999 (talk) 11:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

this wiki article is about 'apartheid' and israel. hence, the poll and review thereof should only discuss the direct apartheid references - anything else is just not relevant here (as per other wiki articles with malik and dlv and others who feel very strongly - rightly so - that if the RS doesn't say 'x', then 'x' is not relevant). so, i think we can only include: "39% agreed that "there is apartheid in Israel in some ways", 19% agreed it was there "in most ways", 31% said "there is no apartheid at all", and 11% said they did not know. The pollsters said that the term "apartheid" may not have been clear enough to some of those interviewed." Soosim (talk) 11:18, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

After some consideration of the matter, I think I agree with you, Soosim. Unless sources specifically tie some of the other poll results to apartheid, I think it would be OR to include them. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:08, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Did a quick search for English language news reports on the poll. The reports I have seen support the Haaretz coverage, which means unless there is further evidence (which I haven't seen), we should report this view as the majority view, with the TOI view as the minority (unless other RS are also found which support this position). - For sources see Nishidani's list bellow Dlv999 (talk) 11:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Has anybody considered that the Israelis might just be making a rational response to a difficult situation? Just because they see a situation which is logically equivalent to apartheid as the least bad outcome does not mean that they are evil or that we should label them as such. Can we have some balance please? Hcobb (talk) 14:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

That's not true at all, there are a good many which note the results aren't what they seem. But the fact that Harriet Sherwood writes in The Guardian something hardly makes it more of a fact - it means that she based it off the Haaretz article. There are two main bodies of information regarding the poll - the Haaretz article, and the Times of Israel RS reference which discuss certain flaws in the polling. We don't report stuff as "majority" or "minority" because that's how we like it. --Jethro B 23:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Editors opining on the morality of Israelis support for apartheid policies is not appropriate discussion for this talk page and is likely to be highly counter productive. Dlv999 (talk) 15:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Wise words from Dlv999 there but Hcobb makes a point that may be relevant to this article in terms of perceived causes and their effects, if suitable sources can be found. "Siege Mentality in Israel" by Daniel Bar-Tal and Dikla Antebi is an interesting paper in this regard but it doesn't really go into the kind of details that might make it useful for this article (although there may be more recent papers from the same authors available that could be useful). John Mearsheimer's 2010 lecture at the Palestine Center "The Future of Palestine: Righteous Jews vs. the New Afrikaners" may be of interest. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the coverage here ought to be so heavily based on the Times of Israel's article. The subject of the article is apartheid, looking at e.g. the Guardian and Independent sources we have the main points: 1) most of the respondents said Israel practices apartheid, 2) most said Palestinians should be denied the vote if the WB were annexed and 3) 30% said Israeli Arabs ought to be denied the vote. This poll has received quite a lot of coverage in RS, so it should obviously be discussed in the article. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

A poll is worthless without knowing the methodology used, as anyone who's learned statistics will tell you. If the pollsters admit that people may not have understood the questions, or if, as the Globe and Mail tells us, Haaretz said that the "questions were written by a group of academia-based peace and civil rights activists", that stuff should go in the text otherwise you have an NPOV violation. I'm surprised nobody published the margin of error, which is also important. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Ie, results of a poll reported in a major Israeli newspaper are worthless unless we investigate the methodology of the poll itself? By the way, no one seems to have objected to the substantial use of polls at Palestinian political violence where surveys of support were amply cited. Official Israeli government sources are cited all over the I/P area, as are IDF reports on violence, all written by groups of people who are not peace activists or academics and therefore neutral. B'tselem and Human Rights Watch data is written by peace activists, and included unproblematically. At Jerusalem I don't think we plied the worry beads when Tritomex cited a poll there from the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion, whose founder is a 'democracy' activist. What makes this article any different? It's simplest to follow standard procedure, i.e., since this will cover at least a paragraph when more sources over the next week and month arrive, to write (a) what Haaretz said (b) the various follow-ups, and keep RR's summary sentence in the lead, because leads have to sum up sections.

According to Pollard, the poll's results repeat what polls have found in the past, similar figures for Israeli public support for separation, and the only 'shock' was to find the same results repeated when the original word, apartheid, which of course means 'separation', happened to be used in the polling questions. (Pollard smh)Nishidani (talk) 20:15, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

If other polls have their methodology questioned by RS, that should go in articles where they are cited as well. Is there any particular reason you want to obscure pertinent information about this poll from the readers of this article? If Noam Shelef (I assume you know who he is) questions the methodology of a poll like this, why should we not include that?

I doubt there will be "more sources over the next week and month". Gideon Levi has pushed this to all his contacts already. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Very peculiar. Nowhere here have I suggested any RS information be excluded. Indeed I have listed as many RS, some quite critical yet missed, that I am familiar with, as a basis for the section draft. I always argue for complete coverage, of all sides. 'Is there any particular reason you want to obscure pertinent information'!!. I only wished you applied that principle on theAshkenazi Jews talk page! That's the first time anyone has accused me of excluding pertinent information from wikipedia. My whole problem with wikipedia I/P articles is dealing with the strength of opposition to my inclusionist principles. And, by the way, using a talk page to impute or insinuate that Gideon Levy, note the spelling, is manipulating world-wide the media take-up of his story sounds uncannily like a topsy-turvy spin of the mapcap Jewish conspiracy theory, and is a WP:BLP violation, It should be struck out.Nishidani (talk) 21:10, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

OK, maybe I misunderstood what you meant when you said "results of a poll reported in a major Israeli newspaper are worthless unless we investigate the methodology of the poll itself?". I await your proposed text.

That Gideon Levy promotes his articles to the foreign press is not imputing on anything. It's a well known fact amply documented in the Israeli reality show "connected" in which Levy participated. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:37, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

You are making an inference. Even were it true, it is not documented the way Mearsheimer and Walt comprehensively provide the evidence for massive lobbying in all media (they ignored wikipedia though) that skews all Western reportage to the Zionist narrative. So the point you made is pointless.Nishidani (talk) 06:56, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

There's no reason to not apply NPOV like we always do. Namely, see what most of the sources say and weight accordingly. Most of the sources said in fact what I listed above with 1) and 2). One source as far as I can see questioned methodology, so that aspect can be mentioned and given that weight. Making the whole text about Times of Israel's criticism would be giving ToI undue weight. That Guardian and Independent report what Haaretz said of the poll and not what ToI said of the methodology reflects an editorial choice which we need to take into account, since it affects the weights given to various aspects of this information in reliable sources. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 18:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Actually, most sources said that Haaretz reported those numbers. None of them seem to have independently verified them. The Guardian and Independent are not bound by NPOV (obviously). We are. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Meanwhile, 40 hours after the text was reverted, there is no mention in the article about this significant development. Unless there is agreement soon about a replacement text, I intend to restore my original edit; it is ridiculous to omit any reference to this. RolandR (talk) 18:50, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Your text was an obvious NPOV violation and included irrelevant material. Please don't restore an edit that was objected to by multiple editors without first gaining consensus for it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Where was the NPOV violation in my purely factual and conmpletely accurate summary of an article in Haaretz? I don't think I added even one adjective. RolandR (talk) 20:07, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

If anyone can find an NPOV violation there, document it. Most of the argument concerns how the sentence rightly included by RR in the lead, should be developed in a section below. Many seem to have forgotten that this article is about 'Israel and the apartheid analogy'. We have polling evidence, it has generated much comment, the poll was conducted under the purview of Camil Fuchs (please check his credentials, he's one of Israel's foremost experts on statistics), and appeared in a mainstream Israeli paper. I support the restoration of this one sentence to the lead. I would call on all editors to develop a section to explain the poll's details, criticisms in sources, and its impact abroad. Nishidani (talk) 20:47, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

The NPOV violation, as has been documented above, is that it did not include any of the criticisms that appear in RS. And we don't put something in the lead and then develop a section. We first develop the section and then, if appropriate, summarize it in the lead. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:55, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

No. The section was written, by Jethro, after Roland's edit. It was badly done, but expanded that lead sentence. Just restore both in their respective sections. All Roland need do is write:-

According to a September 2012 opinion poll, a majority of Israeli Jews expressed support for discriminatory measures in Israel and the Occupied Territories, and for an apartheid regime if Israel were to annex the West Bank. 58% said Israel already practiced apartheid there. The results have been challenged.+ref to Times or Israel/HonestReporting.

And, in the same edit, add the Malik/Jethro expansion in a separate development section below, and your objection drops. The expansion is in a sorry state, but rather than talk infinitely, we should simply restore both, in their respective sections, and ask all to read the sources and improve the section, which hasn't been touched since it was proposed.Nishidani (talk) 21:17, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

If you look at the article history, you will see that I first added information about the poll in the body of the article, and only then added a sentence to the lead. I know better than to put potentially contentious article in the lead without adding a substantive edit to the body of the article. RolandR (talk) 21:47, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

My comment about the lead was addressed to Nishidani.

As for the lead text, first of all I don't think that one poll that will maybe get a short paragraph in the body actually belongs in the lead. Second, even it if did, it should be attributed to Haaretz since every single source (except Haaretz itself) attributes it to them. Third, the poll didn't ask if they supported "an apartheid regime if Israel were to annex the West Bank". That omits both the fact that the question didn't actually use the term "apartheid" and the fact that most respondents said Israel shouldn't even annex territory with settlements on it, not to mention the whole thing. Third it omits the fact that the pollsters admit that people might not have understood what "apartheid" means. There's more, but we can start with these. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Definitely does not belong in lead. Results for a hypothetical scenario with a vague question whose conductors said was vague. Gideon Levy opens up sensationalist journalism with writing "Israelis support the establishment of an apartheid state,"i ignoring again this isn't supported by the #s, which discuss a hypothetical scenario which most Israelis oppose and uses a vague term (which Levy said the word "apartheid" was unclear in the question regarding the current situation), and most likely the issue regarding voting, which again was in a hypothetical scenario that most Israelis oppose, was out of a natural tendency not to support the political suicide of a country via changing its foundational character. Again - the poll says most Israelis oppose annexing the West Bank - which makes all the following stuff fantasy. Why would they perhaps oppose annexation? Because if they don't want to commit political suicide, they'd likely be forced to be associated with apartheid - something that they show they do not support.

Feel free to access the poll results here, and learn a few interesting things you won't encounter in Levy's article, such as 59% of Israelis opposing limiting the right of Arabs to vote. So when it says that most don't want Arabs to vote in the Knesset, based on some hypothetical scenario that would be split alon citizenship lines and not racial lines, this is simply contradicted by other answers.

There is no reason to include the results of a survey that discuss a hypothetical scenario using a term that was confusing in the lead, which simply discusses for and against arguments. The current way the lead is is structured in 2 paragraphs - for and against. Including a hypothetical scenario isn't relevant to the lead. There is also no reason to remove the vital information regarding the flaws in its questioning and methodology, in favor of that it was simply challenged (the times of israel isn't an opinion piece btw, it's an actual newspiece, and they're simply reporting on the facts, not challenging it themselves), in favor of a heavily misleading passage. Note that Nishidani's draft includes in the event of annexation, but then fails to note that such an event is opposed by most. Note also that the results haven't been challenged, but rather the survey Levy's article has been criticized as not representing the true side of the survey, while flaws in the survey have been pointed out. --Jethro B 00:42, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Procedure.

• RR put text into the body of the article, and then added the lead sentence. No objections there.

Importance of item

• We now have a specific poll listing the results of an empirical study into Israeli attitudes regarding the topic of Israel and Apartheid. The poll goes to the meat of the topic argument. It is thoroughly relevant.

Analogy

• The priority of editors at Price tag policy was to insert poll results into the lead, indicating strong Israeli opposition to these attacks. No objection from me or anyone else.

Poll source

• Impeccable. It is run by one of Israel's foremost statisticians. Jethro and NMMGG are opposing this by questioning the poll (the primary source, and Haaretz's reportage). That's not our job. We look at the RS, and do not make editorial judgements about the source.

Hypothetical scenario

• Jethro. It is in the nature of polls to examine audience 'intentions' or 'attitudes'. See Nationwide opinion polling for the United States presidential election, 2012 and the many correlated articles. Objecting to our use of one result because it deals with a response to an 'hypothetical' situation reflects subjective distaste, is neither here nor there, and not grounded in a policy argument.

Levy's report missed stuff in the original source'.

• That applies to all reportage. Leads give a thumbnail summary, and the body of the article expands to point out everything related to the primary source and its media response, per the subsequent reportage of responses. This is not an argument.

So far all I have seen are WP:IDONTLIKEIT opposition. Editors should not be seen opposing a poll on one page which they find distasteful, while polls that indicate results they like go unchallenged on similar pages. There is no coherence in approach in these objections.Nishidani (talk) 08:35, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

as long as it includes the comments about the respondants not understanding what apartheid is, that's fine. also, btw, the new york times wouldn't even go near it, calling it a 'push poll'. Soosim (talk) 09:01, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Do I have to repeat this? I am an inclusionist whose only criterion for exclusion is bad sources. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to this is probably using wiki rules to censor coverage. That's why I entered into the Ezra Nawi page his conviction for underage sex, though RR was understandably opposed given the POV pressure there to use it to smear him. We should stop fighting over this. Everything RS report goes into an article. Everything does not go into the lead, self-evidently. RR's laconic line is perfectly trimmed to give the essence of the poll. Three extra words, if editors agree, re 'contested' would satisfy NPOV holdouts. The New York Times, from my knowledge, usually waits some weeks, if not years, before anything controversial reported of Israel gets covered. The New York Times did not call it a push poll. Jodi Rudoren, one of their ME reporters, did in a tweet, according to Jonathan Hoffman in his instant blog comment,'Ha'aretz twists poll, Guardian and JC follow but JC then has second thoughts,' at Jewish Chronicle, 23 October 2012. Not RS, though certainly interesting, in the extraordinary suggestion implicit here that Amiram Goldblum, perhaps to make his deceased wife smile in her grave, managed to manipulate Prof. Camil Fuchs, so that he forgot his reputation and outstanding analytical gifts in order to 'influence or alter the view of respondents' and make Gideon Levy and the Haaretz jihadis happy? I'm sure the blogosphere's gone ballistic with conspiracy theories of this kind. Who cares? None of it is RS, unless you take RS to be code for 'ratshit'.Nishidani (talk) 09:37, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG, are you inventing new requirements to sources? Weight is determined by the volume of coverage in reliable sources. Independent and Guardian are reliable, simple as that. "Reliable", by the way, means that we can rely on them without speculating on whether they did some kind of unspecified additional checks. I agree we should restore the text, to it can be added a short (per weight) mention of the ToI criticism. --Dailycare (talk) 17:48, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? Your last post was speculation on why the Guardian and Independent didn't cover the criticism and now you're telling me not to speculate? We don't need to speculate if they did additional checks or not. Every single one of them attributes it to Haaretz.

@Nishidani - so you're saying a single poll is lead material? There are all sorts of polls floating around. If this single poll that will get a few lines in the body goes in the lead of this article, I might feel compelled to put all kinds of single polls in other articles. They're not hard to find and some of them have all sorts of very unflattering results.

I'm also enjoying what you have to say about blogs. You freely include them when they advance your POV, but now they're "ratshit". Awesome. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:28, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree the inclusion of one specific poll would be WP:UNDUE] and against WP:LEAD--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 18:30, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Nishidani, I never participated in a discussion on such an article so I can't control the results there. However, you need to distinguish between a survey that has ground results, and a survey that is simply about a hypothetical scenario that is opposed by most Israelis. If you asked an Israeli, "If a million dollars fell out of the sky, would you take it?" That doesn't make the results suitable to go into the lead of an article on Israelis. This is especailly true when we have RS, not just ourselves, questioning the accuracy and reliability of these polls, and the fact that the results can be very misleading (making it innacurate to put into lead).

So yes, there actually are serious objections to what RolandR put into the article and the lead.

If the survey was not a hypothetical scenario that was opposed by most respondents, and the questions were not confusing to anyone and everyone understood what it meant, it could be acceptable for the lead. But the nature of this poll just doesn't make it suitable. --Jethro B 19:06, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Jethro, your personal opinions about surveys are irrelevant to this discussion. We represent what reliable sources say, not the personal opinions of editors. If you want to claim that there are different types of surveys that can be distinguished, find an RS that says so in the context of this article, otherwise its just your opinion. We have numerous RS that report the findings of the survey. We have one or two that question the findings. It shouldn't be a difficult task to put together a text with the majority and minority viewpoints covered. Dlv999 (talk) 19:26, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Except that even Levy admits that the term "apartheid" was unclear and that the question was asked only in regards to a hypothetical scenario, which another question found was opposed by most Israelis. --Jethro B 19:41, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

No, that is not correct. Explain to me what is hypothetical about the following :the interviewees did not object strongly to describing Israel's character as "apartheid" already today, without annexing the territories. Only 31 percent objected to calling Israel an "apartheid state" and said "there's no apartheid at all." In contrast, 39 percent believe apartheid is practiced "in a few fields"; 19 percent believe "there's apartheid in many fields" and 11 percent do not know. Dlv999 (talk) 20:45, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

That's the second case, where the pollsters explained that the term was unclear to respondents, and hence the results may not be accurate. While perhaps suitable for the body of the article, it's far too misleading and controversial to simply put into the lead. --Jethro B 21:52, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

No. The survey conductors said: "perhaps the term "apartheid" was not clear enough to some interviewees", however interviewees had the option to select "don't know" if they were unfamiliar with the term "apartheid", but only 11% went for that option for that particular question. Regarding your OR, as I have already requested, it would be more helpful if you just stuck to the sources instead of giving us your own theory. See eg the SMH report :"When specifically questioned on whether there is apartheid in Israel, 58 per cent said there was – of those, 39 per cent said apartheid existed "in some respects" and 19 per cent said it existed "in many respects". Thirty-one per cent believed there was no apartheid." - which makes perfect sense, no need for original theories from editors. Dlv999 (talk) 23:29, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG, so do you have any basis in policy for your allegation that those sources shouldn't be taken into account when determining weight, if they used Haaretz as their source? I sincerely doubt that you don't, as WP:NPOV says "in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources" (my italics). If a story originates in one source and is immensely reported thereon, it becomes very prevalent. Prevalent means "widespread" (source), and spreading inherently in fact implies that is began somewhere and spread from there. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 10:08, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

The story that is prevalent is that Haaretz reported something. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:30, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

It seems we're sort of in agreement. --Dailycare (talk) 17:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The original front page article is now renamed by Haaretz. This, I think, should be mentioned, when citing the source, otherwise it look as if it was traveling under wrong flag.89.139.71.1 (talk) 08:45, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Source List for the article section

Probably this will become controversial over the following days and weeks, and will require a paragraph, with one sentence lead summary. For convenience, here is a source list. One can add to it. Please note (for far) how the article headings and lead paragraphs report the information.

• Given the number of emerging sources this probably will end up in a separate article, to which this page will provide a link.

• Original Poll at scribd
• Gideon Levy, 'Apartheid without shame or guilt,' Haaretz 23 October 2012

• Gideon Levy, 'Survey:most Israeli Jews would support Apartheid regime in Israel,' at Haaretz, 23 October 2012, carried also in The Forward here

• Gabe Fisher 'Controversial survey ostensibly highlights widespread anti-Arab attitudes in Israel,' at The Times of Israel, 23 October 2012

• Catrina Stewart, 'The new Israeli apartheid: Poll reveals widespread Jewish support for policy of discrimination against Arab minority,' at The Independent, 23 October, 2012

• Adrian Blomfield, 'Israelis favour discrimination against Arabs - poll,' at Telegraph. 23 October, 2012

• Noam Shelef, 'That poll's apartheid problem,' at The Daily Beast/Newsweek, 23 October 2012 ('claiming the poll demonstrates support for “apartheid” is spin at its worst.')

• Natasha Lennard 'A majority of Israeli Jews support apartheid regime, survey finds,' at Salon.com, 23 October, 2012

• 'Israeli Jews support apartheid in Israel,' at Jewish Chronicle, 23 October 2012

• Gianluca Mezzofiore, Israeli Jews Support Apartheid Regime, Survey Reveals,' at International Business Times, 23 October 2012

• 'Poll shows majority Israelis favour 'apartheid' policies,' in The Guardian, 24 October 2012

• Ruth Pollard 'Israelis back discrimination against Arabs: poll, at Sydney Morning Herald, 24 October, 2012

• Paul Koring ‘Many Israelis Jews support apartheid style state, poll suggests,’ at Globe and Mail, October 24 2012

• 'Israeli Jews Believe The Country Already Practices Apartheid Against Its Arabs, Survey Shows,', at Huffington Post, 24 October 2012

• Joshua Lapide, Most Israeli Jews for apartheid regime in Israel,' at AsiaNews, 24 October, 2012

• Jack Khoury and Jonathan Lis, Arab MKs: Israeli Jews' support of apartheid is not surprising,' at Haaretz, 24 October 2012.

• Christa Case Bryant, Momentum builds for Gaza to secede, Israel and West Bank to become one,' at Christian Science Monitor, 24 October 2012-10-29

• Gideon Levy, 'Meet the israelis,' at Haaretz, 25 October, 2012. (op-ed)

• Ilene Prusher 'Politics: Breaking stereotypes', at Jerusalem Post, 25 October 2012

• Jenni Frazer, 'Shock findings of ‘apartheid’ poll questioned,' at Jewish Chronicle, October 25, 2012

• Benjamin Pogrund 'Israel has moved to the right, but it is not an apartheid state,' at The Guardian, 26 October, 2012 ( The original headline of this article, "Israel is hostile towards Arabs, but it is not an apartheid state", was changed at 17:46 on 26 October 2012 at the request of the author) (op-ed)

• Yehuda Ben Meir 'Most of us don't want apartheid,', at Haaretz, 28 October, 2012 (op ed)

• Gideon Levy 'Errors and omissions excepted,' at Haaretz, 29 October 2012

• Ben White, 'Israel is an apartheid state (no poll required) ,' at AlJazeera, 29 October, 2012 (op-ed)

• Shany Mor,'‘Apartheid’ poll: Errors that traveled round the world,' at Haaretz, 29 October, 2012

• 'Israeli poll finds majority would be in favour of 'apartheid' policies: Clarification,', at The Guardian, 30 October 2012 •
• Elhanan Miller 'Haaretz changes tack on major story that alleged widespread ‘apartheid’ attitudes in Israel,', at The Times of Israel, October 30, 2012,
• Alex Ryvchin 'Shonky poll serves to demonise Israelis as pro-apartheid ,' at The Australian, 1 November, 2012

• 'Israelis debate significance of apartheid survey,' at Deutsche Welle, I November 2012

• Gideon Levy, 'Practising apartheid -- and proud of it,', at Mail & Guardian, 2 Novem,ber 2012

• • Sources that bear on the topic but which some might query as RS-compatible.
• The proposed paragraph reprints essentially the reorganizing of the data in, and reflects the priorities of Simon Plosker, 'Ha’aretz Creates Non-Existent Apartheid State,' at HonestReporting, October 23, 2012

• Ha'aretz's Apartheid Campaign Against Israel, at Camera, October 25, 2012

• Noam Sheizaf, ‘Poll: Israelis support discrimination against Arabs, embrace the term apartheid,’, at +972mag , 23 October 2012 (Sheizaf is often cited in the RS above, but may legitimately be challenged here)

See also

• Carlo Strenger, The psychology of Israel’s declining democracy,' at Haaretz, 24 October 2012Nishidani (talk) 13:01, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

and see how quickly the 'new israel fund' has distanced themselves from the poll: http://www.timesofisrael.com/survey-highlights-anti-arab-attitudes-in-israel/ "The NIF later denied any tie to the poll. “The poll released today by the Goldblum Fund/Dialog was not commissioned or sponsored or in any way related to the New Israel Fund,” Naomi Paiss, NIF Vice President, Public Affairs, wrote in an email. “The Goldblum Fund gets some funding from Signing Anew, a non-related organization with whom we sometimes jointly sponsor projects, but this wasn’t one of them.”

The equivocation of the NIF does not invalidate the data. RolandR (talk) 14:05, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

How many of those sources are just reporting that Haaretz reported something? Seems like all of them. Did I miss anything or are these not exactly independent sources reporting on a poll they actually read? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:38, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Well in that case lets just use the Haaretz report and forget all the rest. Or do you just want to just forget all the reports that support Haaretz coverage and only include the one or two reports that do not support Haaretz coverage. If so that is bias and certainly not compatible with our NPOV policy. Dlv999 (talk) 06:53, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Pretty sure he's saying that we can divide these into two (I say three really) groups - the Haaretz article and reports that were based on this article, and reports that discussed the Haaretz article/survey/issues, rather than simply just using the article itself. My third category would be opinion pieces, some of which there are above. --Jethro B 00:52, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

That is a misrepresentation of the sources. All of the reports use the initial Haaretz report as the basis of the story. All of the reports add there own further reporting to the story. Dlv999 (talk) 08:33, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

They commented on the story as published in Haaretz. They all attribute it to Haaretz (or in other words, do not take responsibility for the data) and add no data from the poll itself that doesn't appear in Haaretz. What we have here is A reporting "B said C" and other sources saying "A said B said C". It should not only be attributed to Haaretz like all the sources do, it should also be attributed to Gideon Levy since he's the only actual source for the data. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:03, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

No, this is a news story not an opinion piece by Levy, and as far as I can tell the story contains no editorial comment at all. Haaretz is reliable for reporting the results of a poll. It can be attributed the Dialog Group, but not to Levy, and not to Haaretz either. Unless you would like to challenge the reliability of a news article in Haaretz to report the results of a poll at RS/N that is. nableezy - 22:14, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

It should be attributed to Haaretz because that's what every other source does. And of course it contains editorial content. It's interpreting poll results, not just publishing them. In fact, it is very light on actual quotes from the poll and very heavy on interpretation. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:25, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Haaretz_and_poll_results nableezy - 22:37, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Newbie's draft wrongly placed in article mainspace. Relocated here

I've added two newbie or anon suggestions from the article (A) and (C). I've edited C for NPOV, but haven't checked the refs. What is lacking is reference to the criticisms. The section requires (a) the data of the poll direct (b) its publication in Haaretz and the way it was taken up by several newspapers (c) comment by sources on both the poll, Gideon Levy and the apartheid issue. Nishidani (talk) 14:10, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

(Propoal B) “Most of the Jewish public (58 percent) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs”, according to an opinion poll of Israeli Jews in Oct. 2012 published in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz and analysed by Israeli human rights activist and journalist Gideon Levy.

“The survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews. The survey was commissioned by the Yisraela Goldblum Fund and is based on a sample of 503 interviewees. The questions were written by a group of academia-based peace and civil rights activists. Dialog is headed by Tel Aviv University Prof. Camil Fuchs.

The majority of the Jewish public, 59 percent, wants preference for Jews over Arabs in admission to jobs in government ministries. Almost half the Jews, 49 percent, want the state to treat Jewish citizens better than Arab ones; 42 percent don't want to live in the same building with Arabs and 42 percent don't want their children in the same class with Arab children. A third of the Jewish public wants a law barring Israeli Arabs from voting for the Knesset and a large majority of 69 percent objects to giving 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote if Israel annexes the West Bank.

A sweeping 74 percent majority is in favor of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank. A quarter - 24 percent - believe separate roads are "a good situation" and 50 percent believe they are "a necessary situation." Almost half - 47 percent - want part of Israel's Arab population to be transferred to the Palestinian Authority and 36 percent support transferring some of the Arab towns from Israel to the PA, in exchange for keeping some of the West Bank settlements. Although the territories have not been annexed, most of the Jewish public (58 percent) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs. Only 31 percent think such a system is not in force here. Over a third (38 percent ) of the Jewish public wants Israel to annex the territories with settlements on them, while 48 percent object.” Added from the article where it was prematurely proposed Nishidani (talk) 13:00, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

(Proposal C)

Polling evidence

According to an October 2012 opinion poll (sample 503 Israeli Jews) commissioned by the Yisraela Goldblum Fund and published in Haaretz, a majority of the Israeli Jewish public (58 percent) believes that Israel already practices apartheid against Arabs, and 59% wants Jewish Israelis to be given preference over Arab Israelis in the selection of personnel for jobs in government ministries.

The poll found that almost half Israeli Jews, 49%, want the state to treat its Jewish citizens better than Arab ones; 42% do not desire to live in the same building with Arabs and 42% do not want their children to share classes with Arab Israeli children. It emerged also that a third of Israel's Jewish public would support a law barring Israeli Arabs from voting for the Knesset. A large majority of 69% was found to object to giving 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote were Israel to annexe the West Bank.

To be fair, it is getting a bit silly now, we are 4 days after the original edit and there is still nothing in the article describing this widely reported poll that is clearly relevant to the topic of the article. Dlv999 (talk) 13:31, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The situation is ridiculous, and, irrespective of intentions, looks like filibustering. It's normal to have such information promptly added to the page as news reports it. I suggest RR just do as suggested above, though I'd like to hear Malik on this beforehand. A short hint in the lead, and either draft proposal A or C into the relevant subsection. It doesn't matter that the latter is wholly inadequate. We can then work on it there, and here, to make it faithful to the articles. Nishidani (talk) 13:51, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

What a poll has to do with science?. Nowhere conclusions are drown from a polls. For example the poll carried out by Palestinians in 2010 found that more East Jerusalem Palestinians would like to live under Israel, than under Palestinian rule. More so 40% of East Jerusalem Arab residents would prefer to loose their homes than to be left under Palestinian rule. So polls are never scientifically established facts, they have margin of error and in many cases are used for political manipulations.--Tritomex (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

If you wish to challenge the use of polls in wikipedia articles, please take the complaint elsewhere. They are all over hundreds of articles and their legitimacy for article construction has never been questioned. This is not a forum for such discussions.Nishidani (talk) 15:38, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you try to keep your personal opinions off the talk page and instead apply the content rules to the reliably sourced information available. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:39, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

as i had written earlier - the views that the interviewer said about the respondants not understanding the questions must be included. i don't see that up above. Soosim (talk) 16:15, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Both the statement that respondents didn't understand the question and the breakdown which says that people think there is apartheid "in some areas" should be included. The things about living in the same building etc do not belong in this article since they don't mention apartheid. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:27, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not that they did not understand the question, more that the pollsters said perhaps some of the interviewees may not have understood the term "apartheid". But of course they had the option to say "don't know" to that question, an option only 11% of the interviewees selected in that question. Dlv999 (talk) 17:41, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Your opinion is very interesting. Let me give you my opinion in return. There's no such thing as "apartheid in some areas". The information that the pollsters themselves thought people might not have understood the question is important, as is the somewhat misleading question they asked. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:45, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I indicated above that I support including poll results for questions directly related to apartheid. But I think it would be OR to include questions about separate roads, Arabs voting, etc., unless RS use the word apartheid to describe those results.

In summarizing the poll results above ("Draft language"), I quoted directly from Haaretz. There is no "apartheid in some areas"; it is "apartheid in some ways". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 18:13, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I agreed with what Soosim wrote above (and which you're writing here regarding certain questions). As for the latter statement, the original poll itself says "in certain fields" or "certain areas" or "certain topics," depending how you want to translate it. But the question did not say "in some ways." --Jethro B 00:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Look at the graphic, where the question is translated properly as "in some ways". — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 01:59, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

My point still stands with "some ways". Since how the question was framed has been criticized in RS the text should note this. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:57, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Lost in translation, perhaps? It can't be disputed what the poll question says. They can only literally say one thing, their literal interpretations aren't open to interpretation. There are numerous cases of "lost in translation" throughoug reliable media, even newspapers like The New York Times have a section where they post errors they made, and here we have the primary source directly contradicting what a secondary source said the primary source asked. --Jethro B 04:30, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

We're not going to solve that here without another RS that gives a different translation, so there's no point arguing over it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 06:16, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

@ NMMNG, it's not my opinion, read the source: it states that the pollsters said, "perhaps the term "apartheid" was not clear enough to some interviewees". You are giving me your opinion Vs what is said in the cited source. Also the read the SMH report of this question: "When specifically questioned on whether there is apartheid in Israel, 58 per cent said there was – of those, 39 per cent said apartheid existed "in some respects" and 19 per cent said it existed "in many respects." - Which makes sense, to my mind at least. I think you are latching on to an awkward translation and making something out of nothing, in any case unless you have a source it is just your opinion as you freely admit. Dlv999 (talk) 18:16, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

If they didn't understand a term used in a question, they didn't understand the question. But ok, it should say they didn't understand the term. It should also show what exact wording was used, since we have that information. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:47, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Providing misleading information's delegitimatize the entire poll and the use of non scientific tools(as the insertion of linguistically foreign political terminology) discredit entire poll and its findings. As far as I see the results as presented by Guardian are in fact constructed manipulations by Israeli journalist Gideon Levy. Also the overall public nowhere on world is politically educated, so the usage of linguistically foreign political terms, without detailed explanation, can not bring any neutral or relevant results. Polls can be neutral or biased, scientific or non scientific. In this case there are many evidence that the combination of bias and non scientific can be applied here, even in the formulations of the questions(we can not check the results)--Tritomex (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Your mistake here is that you think some people wouldn't use a poll they know is biased or non-scientific. You're new here. You'll learn. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:47, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

I wanted to point out that there are other opinions on this issue. Here is the articlkle from CAMERA-Committee for accuracy in Middle East reporting that states "Unsurprisingly, Levy’s article was full of omissions and distortions. He apparently ignored the data that did not suit him and emphasized those that were in accord with his own well-known anti-Israel world view. At times, he completely reversed the survey’s findings. The sensational headline represents, at best, Levy’s interpretation of the survey and does not represent objective, factual reporting. " Goldflam further explaines manipulations with both the results and with the question itself. Beyond Levy’s ignoring of the survey’s nuance, with his blanket assertion that Israel "practices apartheid against Arabs," are the problems inherent in the survey question itself – which Levy similarly ignores. What is "apartheid in some areas" or "apartheid in many areas"? The term "apartheid," contrary to its superficial use in the survey, and contrary to the concept of "discrimination" has a very clear and precise meaning: According to the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, it refers to "an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."There is no such thing as "some" apartheid. There is either apartheid or no apartheid. Apartheid is not simply discrimination – the sort that exists in almost every country around the world including Israel, which is precisely why the term was created specifically to describe South Africa’s regime." In fact average people nowhere on earth have political education and the usage of foreign political terminology is always avoided in polls which are intended to be neutral. Considering the results ,Goldflam accuse Levy with serious manipulations and with direct misquoting of the results "Does the overall picture obtained from these results support Levy’s characterization of most Israeli Jews favoring discrimination against Israeli-Arabs? On the contrary. Most people reading these results would perceive just the opposite, that a majority of Israelis do not support discrimination against Arabs."

So the question is now, should Misplaced Pages quote an article which was described by other articles as misquoted and manipulative, present it as "absolute fact" without balancing this in order to achieve NPOV with the opinion from other sources like CAMERA. Or should this newspaper article which present entire nation as racist be avoided due to very serious allegations against the main editor of this source--Tritomex (talk) 18:50, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Please desist from blogging. Talk is pointless about what may be the case. Thje procedure is to survey sources, agree on RS, and then write the results, confirming or tweaking by collegial discussion. So far the tendency has been to avoid even looking at Malik's version or editing it towards improvement. We simply require a comprehensive survey of the poll results and commentary as reflected in RS. If no one else does it in the meantime, I will present a systematic synthesis of all the available source tomorrow, periodized and thematized, with each point tightly linked to its source, and will post it for comment, trimming. Something has to go into the article, and endless, often filibustering or opinionizing talk is not the purpose for which we come to edit this encyclopedia.Nishidani (talk) 18:53, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Beware of WP:SYNTHESIS. There is no need for each and every media outlet that reported on it to go in, as the vast majority of those are foreign outlets that simply reported what Haaretz said. Thus, using the Haaretz article which they used is sufficient to get what they reported. The Times of Israel, on the other hand, as an Israeli media outlet has more resources and was able to add additional information about the poll, not in an op-ed but in a reliable article. Thus, such a reference is distinguished from the others. If there is another reference that doesn't do either but something else or adds something else, then that can be used as well. But just because various outlets picked up on the story, doesn't mean that the factual contents of the story change from one article to the other. --Jethro B 00:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Jethro, what on earth are you talking about? There is nothing in Nishidani's comment relevant to to WP:SYNTHESIS. Please familiarize yourself with WP:NPOV. Particularly: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint." Thus, as Nishidani points out, we survey the sources, agree on RS, then write the material. Per WP:NPOV, the weighting we give each viewpoint is based on its prominence in RS. That is why we survey all sources. I would have thought this would be uncontroversial stuff, yet you are disputing it. Your labeling of non-Israeli sources as "foreign outlets" is odd. This is not an Israeli website. We survey all English language sources, we do not divide them into Israeli and "foreign" sources. Also I think your speculation about ToI having more resources than the other sources is off the mark. Dlv999 (talk) 07:53, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as Dlv999 says, we're required by policy to make sure that the information we present to readers is weighted in a way that reflects its relative prominence in reliable sources. If we don't, readers may be misled and believe for example that the information from Haaretz and the Times of Israel has been given equal prominence by other reliable sources, which is clearly not the case here. The fact that, as you say, "the vast majority of those are foreign outlets that simply reported what Haaretz said" is very significant for us because that is exactly the kind of metric required to decide, in an objective way, how much weight to assign to a piece of information in order to comply with NPOV. The information in an AP or Reuters report for example will almost always have far more weight than information from a single local outlet (if editors had time to do a systematic survey of all RS for every piece of information everytime) because the likes of AP and Reuters have so many subscribers. Consequently their reports are published by thousands of outlets, giving the information they publish prominence in reliable sources, and prominence in RS is a determining factor for us. So, I think your "The Times of Israel, on the other hand" argument is inconsistent with core policy. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:34, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

There's a difference between just taking what another media outlet said and reporting it without doing any reporting yourself, and actually doing some more reporting. A lot of the media outlets cited here that allegedly can make a misleading fact into an uncontroversial fact are simply parroting what Haaretz wrote. And for foreign media outlets, it may not be worth the time to do some investigative reporting into the poll and harder to double check the results, which is certainly easier for local media outlets. There are two types of reports that we have here - those who took what Haaretz said simply, and those that did something else. And I'm talking about the ones in English, the fact that they're Israeli doesn't disqualify them, and they are in English the ones I brought (hence, accessible internatinoally)... A look at the media outlets that actually did further investigation and further reporting shows that they are quite critical of what Haaretz wrote. A look at some other polls shows very different results. A look at even some of what Levy wrote shows there is a lot of misleading in this poll, which makes it tough to use as evidence. Then there's the clarification they just wrote today, which I posted below. Neutrality requires that we don't be misleading and that we think logically, not based on what we like or don't like. --Jethro B 15:29, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The method we use to weight viewpoints in articles per our WP:NPOV policy is to assess how prevalent those viewpoints are in RS and then use that to determine how much weight we give those viewpoints in our articles. You have given us your own personal opinion several times now. Unfortunately it is not relevant to any Misplaced Pages policy and is not going to determine how the article is weighted, which will be down to consensus based on Misplaced Pages policy and the RS evidence. Dlv999 (talk) 17:22, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Nishidani You wrote down the procedure par excellence. You only forget to mention that the opinion of others regarding the subject have to be included in order to avoid POV and CAMERA is not a blog but a highly specialized institution with a defined aim to promote journalistic accuracy.--Tritomex (talk) 19:09, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Please reread what I said. I forgot to mention nothing (2) familiarize yourself with RS/N on Camera's status as a source. Good night Nishidani (talk) 19:12, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

As I'm aware, CAMERA can be included with attribution if necessary. I think it's fine and easiest to just stick with Haaretz and Times of Israel, and any other reliable sources that add something different. --Jethro B 00:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

No, CAMERA is not a reliable source, and unless a reliable source makes note of their view they cannot be used. And somebody making both this comment and the above is rather odd. nableezy - 06:32, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

and here is some more information, in case you missed it: http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/haaretz-gideon-levy-and-the-israel-apartheid-canard/ --Soosim

*Ben-Dror Yemini, 'Haaretz, Gideon Levy, and the Israel apartheid canard,' at The Times of Israel, 26 October, 2012. (Ben-Dror Yemini is a senior journalist with the Hebrew daily Maariv who lectures about the anti-Israel lie industry)

No, Soosim. That's dreadful crap, hardly better than what you get from I/P editors on talk pages. I'm not, according to context and quality, opposed to the use of blogs, but cite Yemeni and you'd only have thrown back at you the response by

Jonathan Zausmer 'Israel and Apartheid. Don't shoot the messenger,' at the same newspaper, The Times of Israel, 26 October, 2012. (Yemini ‘he writes as an “enlisted” journalist dabbling in hasbara for a regime that is leading the country into a danger zone of neo-apartheid that is very real indeed’). Nishidani (talk) 09:09, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Is it crap? OR is it just you don't like what Yemeni wrote (did you read it?), and thus rush to label him some hasbarist, because you disagree. Do you know who Yemeni is? He's one of Israel's most respected journalists and is a senior journalist at Maariv, a major Israeli publication. Part of what he wrote is exactly what I've been explaining here, for example, "The real reason that most Israelis oppose the annexation of the territories, however, is, most likely, that they would like to avoid a bi-national state or the risk of an apartheid one." Yemeni also uses the full poll to compare what Levy wrote and the actual results - just showing how much more misleading it is to use this Dialog poll as put in Haaretz.

Then there are other polls, as he brought, which are hardly right-wing, and show completely different results. Here is just one of those results - a 63 page comprehensive report. Much more thorough than the one in Haaretz, which created so much controversy and even Levy admited there were some errors with it (not understand the questions for one).

Personally, I don't think we need to use opinion pieces if we actually include this poll. I think it'd constitute WP:UNDUE weight. But these are good for discussion on the talk page, and showing how misleading the Dialog poll really is, and how we can't necessarily take its results as accurate. You want to put in polls? Go ahead. Use any number of the reliable, comprehensive reports that we have, not the controversial misleading ones.

Now who is this Jonathan Zausmer you describe? He describes himself as part of a coalition that is "dedicated to the upholding of the liberal spirit of Israel’s Declaration of Independence, who seek to actively oppose ultra-nationalist and anti-democratic forces." And when the Times of Israel linked to it on the bottom of Yemeni's piece, they wrote to click here to see a rebuttal by "blogger" Zausmer.

Interestingly, Haaretz published a clarification today, pushed towards the bottom of their paper, but still a clarification. The clarification writes, "The original headline for this piece, 'Most Israelis support an apartheid regime in Israel,' did not accurately reflect the findings of the Dialog poll. The question to which most respondents answered in the negative did not relate to the current situation, but to a hypothetical situation in the future: 'If Israel annexes territories in Judea and Samaria, should 2.5 million Palestinians be given the right to vote for the Knesset?'" Interesting, considering there was a revert over "attempting to cover up the positive support for apartheid." Don't want to believe Arutz Sheva? I didn't even know it from there. I have a picture of the clarification I'm happy to upload and show you. --Jethro B 15:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

No blogging, dear. Desist. I said both Yemeni and Zausner were not sources. Zausner, not me, said Yemeni was a hasbarist. In my draft, the clarification was added first thing this morning. It's just that I eat huge amounts of food one Sunday, and the Formula1 race, and other things, slowed my work down.Nishidani (talk) 16:09, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not "blogging." If I wanted to blog, I'd get a wordpress blog and publish it to a different audience. I'm really happy for Zausner, but it's irrelevant to me what he thinks of a senior editor at one of Israel's widest and most respectable publications. You're very into having a misleading inaccurate poll in this article? Maybe we should start with comprehensive accurate reports, like the one given above, that don't have such controversy and aren't misleading. --Jethro B 18:17, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

"CAMERA" isn't reliable so what they think of anything is completely irrelevant. Times of Israel is RS and their take on the poll, published according to their editorial policy does deserve to be represented. As discussed above, however, since the Haaretz material is more widespread in reliable sources it should have more weight. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:24, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not about being "widespread." It's about just taking a report and copying it, or doing further reporting. If a few outlets publish something misleading, that doesn't mean we can give the misleading information more weight, and mislead our own readers. That's part of the reason the poll has been so heavily criticized. We know what the poll questions said and what the results were from the poll itself, we know what the people in charge of the poll have said, we know that a part of this discussion is to insert material regarding some hypothetical scenario. And we also know what other polls say. --Jethro B 18:17, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Jethro. You don't seem to be getting this into your head. WP:NPOV is a core policy of the encyclopedia. You cannot argue your way around it. We represent viewpoints according to their prevalence in RS. If a viewpoint is widespread, then it will be given significant weight in the article. If a viewpoint is not widespread it will be given less weight in the article. If a viewpoint does not appear in RS it will not appear in the article. What you are doing is giving us your own personal opinion (per your own reasoning) about views that have been published in RS. Your personal opinion on these views is irrelevant to the article. Please try to remember our task is to objectively represent viewpoints that have appeared in RS in proportion to their prevalence in RS, not advocate our own interpretation of what the facts are. Dlv999 (talk) 18:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I have just red from Haaretz "CLARIFICATION: The original headline for this piece, 'Most Israelis support an apartheid regime in Israel,' did not accurately reflect the findings of the Dialog poll."

Also there is an article from Arutz Sheva "After falsely accusing Israelis of supporting apartheid against Arabs, radical leftist paper publishes tiny clarification-Ultra-leftist newspaper Haaretz, which is partially owned by a German publishing family with a Nazi past, has published a "clarification" to an article it ran as its main front page story, in which it accused Israelis of supporting an apartheid regime against Arabs.....Goldlfam writes: "Does the overall picture obtained from these results support Levy’s characterization of most Israeli Jews favoring discrimination against Israeli-Arabs? On the contrary. Most people reading these results would perceive just the opposite, that a majority of Israelis do not support discrimination against Arabs."" As Israel National News is RS, this opinion has to be added to the article due to WP:NPOV. --Tritomex (talk) 18:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Here's the full clarification Haaretz put on the article:

CLARIFICATION: The original headline for this piece, 'Most Israelis support an apartheid regime in Israel,' did not accurately reflect the findings of the Dialog poll. The question to which most respondents answered in the negative did not relate to the current situation, but to a hypothetical situation in the future: 'If Israel annexes territories in Judea and Samaria, should 2.5 million...

No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:22, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

(and continues) "Palestinians be given the right to vote for the Knesset?'" (and that's the full statement). Zero 12:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The headline may have changed, but not the content. The article still begins: "Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank. A majority also explicitly favors discrimination against the state's Arab citizens, a survey shows." RolandR (talk) 19:24, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

This raises question of WP:DUE as in addition to Levy conceeding the question's misleading nature, the results are also dependent on a hypothetical variable and cannot be considered particularly applicable, especially when we have other polls such as the 63 page comprehensive report. The proposal in inaccurate, the poll was inaccurate; surely we have higher quality material? Ankh.Morpork 19:09, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

AnkhMorpork, this poll has received extensive coverage in RS, so there's no question it must be included. That's all that WP:DUE is about. --Dailycare (talk) 20:12, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

And after that "extensive coverage", the original source issued a clarification. Why do you think that was; because everyone was reporting the findings accurately? Ankh.Morpork 20:15, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Although Haaretz named the admittance of its inaccurate edition-clarification, from the text provided we can see that it is in fact admittance of serous manipulation.'Most Israelis support an apartheid regime in Israel,' did not accurately reflect the findings of the Dialog poll. The admittance of non accurate reporting which is equal with misleading reporting fully delegitimize this source. Also the admittance of non accurate reporting can not be clarified, it can only be admitted, as in this case. Something which is auto-labeled as non accurate by the author of the source cant be added to Misplaced Pages as RS. --Tritomex (talk) 23:11, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

again, i strongly feel it is ok to use only those questions which mentioned the word apartheid, and then make it clear that gidon levy and haaretz felt it wasn't quite right. (using the real quotes, of course). Soosim (talk) 06:19, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Haaretz publicly admitted that not just the title but in fact the whole reading of the polls by Gideon Levy was poor with other words fraud. The article is titled Errors that traveled round the world So it is clear now that the focus of our edition should be this word-error as this is the term used by the author of claim to attribute its claims, after certain verification .--Tritomex (talk) 17:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

This is an opinion piece, written by a person identified as the "Senior Research Associate at the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre"; ie, a paid propagandist for the state of Israel. Haaretz is a reliable source, and a front page article by Haaretz journalist Gideon Levy cannot be discounted because a propagandist has been given the right to reply. RolandR (talk) 18:30, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Those are some serious accusations. Do you have anything that backs this up? And is that any reason to exclude the opinion of someone that Haaretz felt to publish? I mean, after all, it's well-known and clear that Gideon Levy has far-leftist views, and his columns could easily be considered propaganda (whether factual propaganda or not), so I guess we shouldn't bother with him, right? Of course not.

To repeat, in the original article Gideon Levy made numerous statements showing how dubious and inaccurate the results were of this misleading poll. A few days later, after already picked up by some other outlets shown above, Haaretz published a clarification, showing that their title was inaccurate, and that the poll results didn't actually show Israelis wanted to create an apartheid regime, as it was a hypothetical scenario they opposed. We can't turn the clock around, but what those outlets picked up was before this clarification. Even Gideon Levy, a few days after some outlets already picked it up, published another piece, explaining there were some errors with what he wrote (he defended this by saying there were "time constraints"). So while we can't turn back time, we do see that the version that some outlets picked up was misleading, inaccurate, and incorrect, and before the whole clarification came about. The most comprehensive reports, analysis, and op-eds that we've seen regarding this has been centered in the area where the resources for this information is most likely - in the local outlets themselves, which publish internationally, and which do not contain the same glaring errors as picked up by some other outlets, and now shown to be false. --Jethro B 18:47, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the points mentioned above, namely 1) most of the respondents said Israel practices apartheid, 2) most said Palestinians should be denied the vote if the WB were annexed and 3) 30% said Israeli Arabs ought to be denied the vote, these can be sourced at least from the Independent, Guardian and Telegraph sources. (The Telegraph doesn't have the last one, but does say most support preferential treatment to Jews in Israel). As far as I can see these can go in the article now simply on the force of these three sources, with the criticism of the poll being handled as a separate manner when it's settled which criticism sources are reliable and which are opinion pieces. Point 2) is in-line with the new headline of the Haaretz piece too. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

No it can't, since as Malik and Soosim said above, this article is about claims of apartheid, and so we can only use questions specifically about apartheid. And the two qusetions that were about them were misleading and yielded inaccurate results. --Jethro B 20:36, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

A question to Malik. Could you quickly review the sourcing for the page, and see if the impression I at least have that we are placing exceptionally restrictive conditions on what can be used from the Levy report ('specifically about apartheid') that have not been applied to the most of the sources for the rest of the article, many of which do not specifically address the technical issue of 'apartheid' or not, but document the elements of 'discrimination' which, if touched on by Levy, must not be utilized according to some editors? Thank you.Nishidani (talk) 10:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's impossible to "quickly review" the sources that make up the article's 300 footnotes, but isn't it OR to apply the term apartheid to an "element of discrimination" if the source doesn't use the word apartheid? — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, Malik. Yes, that was a tall order. I was told by Jayjg years ago that WP:OR occurs, in articles with two topics joined by and, when both topics are not treated in close approximation in the source article or book. Positively, that works out, again following that guideline, to mean that in a book or article where 'apartheid' is mentioned, and 'discrimination' or 'separation', occurs in contextual association, that one can refer to everything dealing with the latter two, while discussing apartheid. I don't think this rule has been widely followed in sourcing, but if that interpretation is correct, then the Levy article cannot be selectively winnowed to deal only with those parts that specifically mention 'apartheid'. Nishidani (talk) 11:38, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Here is two sources that criticize poll results they should be included to comply with WP:NPOV ,--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 20:34, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Jethro, no, since all three sources disclose the three points in connection with "apartheid". The Guardian's article title is "Israeli poll finds majority would be in favour of 'apartheid' policies" (this was amended after the original one), The Independent says "The new Israeli apartheid: Poll reveals widespread Jewish support for policy of discrimination against Arab minority" and the Telegraphs says "A majority of Israeli Jews (...) would support an "apartheid" system in the West Bank if it were ever annexed". We edit based on what our sources say, there is no need and no basis for making this more complicated than that. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:39, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

• A follow-on piece to his original article by Gideon Levy: Haaretz - Errors and omissions excepted, 29 October 2012.
• A companion piece to the original article: Haaretz - Apartheid without shame or guilt, 23 October 2012.
• Article on the poll from The Independent: Catrina Stewart - The new Israeli apartheid: Poll reveals widespread Jewish support for policy of discrimination against Arab minority, 23 October 2012.

    ←   ZScarpia   23:52, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The Haaretz poll is a fake. Read why. On the other hand, several polls conducted in the Palestinian territories show a majority of Palestinians having genocidal intentions and favoring discrimination against Jews.--Sonntagsbraten (talk) 11:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Posting links to an activist organization like honest reporting in an attempt to discredit a Reliable Source is not adding anything to this discussion. Dlv999 (talk) 10:17, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

here is a new article (not opinion piece) from an RS about the whole thing. doesn't bode well. but as i said many times, just put in two sentences. one about the apartheid question responses, and one about how the author and others felt it wasn't quite understood. http://www.timesofisrael.com/haaretz-changes-tack-on-major-story-that-alleged-widespread-apartheid-attitudes-in-israel/ Soosim (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Haaretz acknowledged mistake

This mess is spreading to other articles -> Talk:Haaretz#Poll. Can editors please help keep it under control and make sure everyone participates in discussions rather than edit warring in their preferred text here or anywhere else. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:11, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion there is about Haaretz acknowledged mistake, which was censored by you from the article there. It is not substantially connected to this article in any way.--AsiBakshish (talk) 21:42, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The Blood On The Hands Of This Article

The article is about accusations against Israel

The article is describing accusation without calling it accusation

To compare any state to apartheid is sort of accusation, not a mere description as it appears in the article. --AsiBakshish (talk) 08:58, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Encyclopedic incoherence?

While there is no similar article about most African countries, North Korea, China, Palestinian Autonomy, Hamas ruled Gaza Strip, how does it come just Israel has been singled out to discuss this kind of accusations? Is this behavior at the very least coherent enough for an encyclopedia? --AsiBakshish (talk) 09:15, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you please keep this to one discussion? We are aware that you are not happy with the accusation that Israel is an apartheid state, but it is not us that is making this accusation. Our articles are created because of notability. Israel being compared to apartheid South Africa is a notable subject. Other states are not notable for this topic (and, in the case of states like North Korea, I'm not even sure that's true). – Richard BB 10:11, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

As I think, these are two different issues, I have opened two threads. What is wrong with that? I think, any encyclopedia should be coherent. Apartheid, as it was defined in South Africa, had no minorities in parliament, no minorities between the doctors in the hospital and so on, no minorities between the judges. This problem is actually visible from the selection of the sources, from which the accusation is drawn. These sources have little or no connection with the reality. You may argue, that any word may be redefined by notable speakers. That is true. But will be the language, which is being now "redefined" even by this very article, anymore useful then the previous one? --AsiBakshish (talk) 14:17, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

In answer to the first question, there are no articles on such because "apartheid"-like systems in other countries do not actually exist, or the criticism that those countries' human rights issues are apartheid-like do not exist. Many people have spoken out about the situation with Israel though and compared it to South African apartheid, which is why this article exists; reliable sources discussing a topic makes it notable, so we as an encyclopedia create an article about the notable topic. Over the years in the Misplaced Pages, pro-Israeli editors have tried to force the creation of such articles to make a point about the fact that they do not like this one. One example off the top of my head was Allegations of Jordanian apartheid. The editors who usually pushed that stuff back then were eventually blocked form editing for persistent disruption. Tarc (talk) 14:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Tarc, what you are actually saying, is that if enough notable people would say, that the World Is Flat, it would constitute a necessity to make an article World and Flatness Analogy? The notable speakers here are at the very start: Uri Davis and Gideon Shimoni. AsiBakshish (talk) 14:48, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't deal with nonsensical analogies, sorry. There are many reliable sources to show that people have made allegations that Israel's situation is analogous to apartheid. There are no reliable sources that discuss Jordinian/Bahraini/Saudia Arabian/North Korean/Chinese situations as being analogous to apartheid. That's really all there is to it. Tarc (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

But that practically speaking means, there is no demand for coherence and indeed no demand for truth. --AsiBakshish (talk) 15:03, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Precisely. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961, yet Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories exists, because the crazy theories about his Kenyan birth and forged birth certificates has been the subject of much discussion in reliable sources. Tarc (talk) 15:43, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't regard the above as good example for the effect I wanted to describe, since these theories are described as conspiracy theories in the name of Misplaced Pages. Hence, the Misplaced Pages states there, that it does regard these theories rather unproven or untrue. In this article it is different. AsiBakshish (talk) 18:25, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think there is substantial support in good quality sources for Israel being an apartheid society. Those who wish to criticize Israel compare Israel to an apartheid society. But that is different from identifying Israel as an example of apartheid in a present day, politically sophisticated state. That is merely a comparison. Do most good quality reliable sources consider that comparison to be an apt comparison? I don't think so. One can always find some sources to support almost any view. To that extent this article attains notability. But it should be made clear in this article that the notion of Israel being an example of an apartheid social system is a distinctly minority view that is not generally found expressed by good quality sources. Bus stop (talk) 16:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. The existence of the article does not condone or condemn the analogy; it simply notes notable people and organizations who have made the analogy and who have opposed it. Tarc (talk) 16:30, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that sources can be found that liken the comparison of the Israeli social system to apartheid to little more than an antisemitic canard. . Bus stop (talk) 19:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I understand the above-mentioned approach would be unacceptable for Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, since the president Barack Obama is a living person. Merely putting there different views into one article without stating where Misplaced Pages stands would be a personal attack on him. Hence we call it conspiracy theories, which makes the article consistent with the article Barack Obama born in Hawaii. But in this article, although Israel is not a living person, the stage was given to the accusers of Israel from the very start without even calling their propositions as theories, seems to me at the very least inconsistent with the article Israel. (Not to mention that some of these notable speakers at the basis of this article, are not exactly cool heads. ]) AsiBakshish (talk) 19:50, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

You would have a point if the article were called Israel, the apartheid state. But it isn't. The current title reflects the subject matter of the article; that notable people have made an analogy of Israel's treatment of Palestinians to how South Africa once treated blacks. The veracity of the analogy is not relevant, only that the analogy exists, and exists in reliable sources. Is there anything to be gained by discussing this further? Tarc (talk) 19:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes, it is. At the case of Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories the lack of veracity is important, because it is the root cause for calling it conspiracy theories. But this article is not called Conspiracy theories about apartheid in Israel, not even Theories about apartheid in Israel and not Israel and apartheid theories but Israel and the apartheid analogy, which for people, who know Israel, is exactly so wise as The Earth and the flatness analogy. AsiBakshish (talk) 20:18, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

This has been argued before. Please review the Talk page archives. And the article's title is a compromise as well. You can find that in the archives as well.

Finally, if you believe this article's existence violates Misplaced Pages's policies or guidelines, please nominate it for deletion. It's only been nominated and kept nine times in the past. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 20:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

The comparison to birther and flat earth conspiracies is poor. In those cases there is a near universal consensus among experts, and those in disagreement can clearly be described as holding "fringe" beliefs. The experts who discuss the apartheid analogy/accusation are much more evenly divided between those who agree with it, those who disagree with it, and those who think it has some merit but is not the most accurate or useful way to describe the Israeli/Palestinian situation. That's why the title of this article is not definite about the status of the discourse as either fringe or mainstream. While the structure and semantics of the article and the title are something of a compromise and aren't perfect, they do reflect the state of the sources relatively well. Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:47, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Flat Earth is not a conspiracy, unless little children are seen here as conspirators and Israel is not an apartheid, unless we consider some very narrowly selected sources more real then the reality on the ground. I am not going to nominate Flat Earth and not even this article for deletion. But as it stands now, it should remain disputed unless it is very clear from the article, that the article distances itself from the analogy as in the case of the birther movement and Flat Earth. The theories about apartheid in Israel are fringe theories. There are even incentives for employment of Arabs in Israel. And by the way, if you state, the article has been nominated for deletion nine times, it most probably means, it was disputed even then. --AsiBakshish (talk) 10:23, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I'm just dropping in here briefly. If the chairman of the ANC, Israel's attorney general, Israeli cabinet ministers and most Israeli citizens say that Israel practices apartheid, how does it become a fringe theory? WP:FRINGE has some definitions of fringe theories as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, and this doesn't meet them. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:09, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

It was also kept nine times. What exactly do you want to have happen with this article? You want it deleted. You can try, but that aint gonna happen. You want to ignore that Israel's policies in the occupied territories has been compared to Apartheid, or that it has been accused of committing the crime of apartheid? That aint gonna happen either. nableezy - 19:22, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Maybe not; but meanwhile, a week after my original edits were removed, the stonewalling and filibustering have ensured that ther4e is still no mention in the article of this significant report. RolandR (talk) 19:36, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Meanwhile, RS have criticized the original report, Haaretz has posted a correction and Gidon Levy has responded to the criticism. If you'd like to propose new text taking all this stuff into account, feel free to do so. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:53, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Haaretz issued a correction for the title. And the poll still exists, and is still relevant, and should be included. nableezy - 20:08, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

With the relevant criticism, the opposition to which is what's stopping the text being put in the article, apropos filibustering. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:06, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

and the fact that the questions were formed by high ranking members of Israel's foreign policy elite, and defended by one of Israel's foremost statisticians, in the face of the hysteria Levy's article aroused.Nishidani (talk) 22:16, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

The questions were formed by a group of left wing activists and funded by the former spokesperson for Peace Now, and were criticized by possibly the leading pollster in Israel, not to mention that Levy himself admitted he got some stuff wrong. Also, all except one foreign publication that reported on this specifically note they got all their information about the poll from Haaretz. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:27, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Read the sources instead of mouthing cliches about 'left-wing activists'. The questionnaire was written by a group of including former director general of the Foreign Ministry and Israel ambassador to Turkey Alon Liel, former ambassador to South Africa Ilan Baruch, former chief of education in the IDF Mordechai Bar-On, and human rights lawyer Michael Sfard. Camil Fuchs is one of Israel's foremost statisticians, and ran the poll and found nothing wrong with the questionnaire.Nishidani (talk) 22:34, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I've read the sources. Have you? Other than Haaretz, which sources are basing their reporting on the actual poll results rather than on an article by Gideon Levy who has already admitted his reporting contained "a few mistakes"? I know who these people are. Having held positions in the Israeli government or IDF does not preclude being an activist, as they indeed are. Mina Tzemach, who has at least the same level of credentials as Fuchs if not better, has criticized the poll. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:45, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

AsiBakshish, I think we've now cut to the precise concern you have with the article in Misplaced Pages terms: you believe the Israeli apartheid analogy is a fringe theory and should be presented as such in the article and its title. That's a reasonable debate to have here, especially because Misplaced Pages has clear definitions of what is and isn't fringe. I believe we've had this discussion in the past, but that doesn't preclude having it again. Here are the relevant parts of WP:FRINGE:

1. "Scholarly opinion is generally the most authoritative for identifying the mainstream view, with the two caveats that not every identified subject matter has its own academic specialization, and that the opinion of a scholar whose expertise is in a different field must not be given undue weight."
2. "We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field."
3. "when the subject of an article is the minority viewpoint itself, the proper contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints must be clear."

The first two points enable us to identify whether the Israeli apartheid analogy is a fringe theory by Misplaced Pages standards. Regarding point 1, there are many academics who specialise in Israeli-Palestinian relations, in the politics of apartheid and closely related political and legal fields. Therefore we shouldn't have any problem identifying scholarly opinions from scholars whose expertise is in an appropriate field. The criterion in point 2 can be determined from these sources, i.e. if qualifying sources overwhelmingly deny a resemblance between Israeli practice and apartheid, then the Israeli apartheid analogy is a fringe theory. Regarding point three, even if the Israeli apartheid analogy isn't precisely fringe but is a minority viewpoint among scholars, the article should still reflect that it is a minority view. Do you agree that these are the relevant criteria for how the article should present the significance of the Israeli apartheid analogy in a manner in keeping with Misplaced Pages guidelines? Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:40, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Ryan Paddy—This article and its title have less to do with the concept of that which is fringe and more to do with that which is comparison. We should not be attempting to write articles whose subject matter and title are comparisons. The entire article is in fact original research. It is a little funny that this page has a template reading: "Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting." Of course there is going to statement and restatement of arguments because this is not a cogent article but rather a comparison between two countries at two different points in history. What is circumscribed by the article's title is an area for discussion. There are in fact no truly reliable sources because comparisons are by nature highly opinionated. Prior-held political positions are obviously going to determine the stances that any source takes in the comparison posed in the title. This is not a valid area for an encyclopedia article. Bus stop (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Your opinion on its validity is a distinct minority, unfortunately, so the traction you are going to get on that is precisely zilch. While this whole tit-for-tat has been fun...we haven't had one of these for a year or so, I'd say...this really isn't leading anywhere at all. Tarc (talk) 23:42, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. I think it is patently obvious that the term "analogy" is virtually identical to the term "comparison". The notion of writing an article on the topic of comparison is quite frankly ridiculous. This is an encyclopedia. It isn't a discussion area. Bus stop (talk) 23:53, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Bus Stop, you're starting into yet another subject. Please create another section for it if you think it's worth pursuing, rather than derailing this one. I wouldn't bother though, because your objection has no basis in Misplaced Pages policy so it's unlikely to go anywhere. That's the reason I've suggested focusing on whether the Israel apartheid analogy is a fringe viewpoint, because that is something we can actually determine and act on. Ryan Paddy (talk) 00:10, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference Dialog was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/Gideon_Levy
3. http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-would-support-apartheid-regime-in-israel.premium-1.471644
4. http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-would-support-apartheid-regime-in-israel.premium-1.471644

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