Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:18, 16 November 2012

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Arts and Entertainment This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group (assessed as Low-importance). Blogging (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Blogging, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.BloggingWikipedia:WikiProject BloggingTemplate:WikiProject BloggingBlogging Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Feminism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Feminism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Feminism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FeminismWikipedia:WikiProject FeminismTemplate:WikiProject FeminismFeminism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Gender studies Low‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : see Unassessed Gender studies articles and Unknown-importance Gender studies articles Cleanup : edit to see Collaborate : see /Collaboration Copyedit : edit to see Deletion sorting : see /Sexuality and gender Expand : edit to see Infobox : see Gender studies articles needing infoboxes Merge : edit to see Notability : edit to see NPOV : edit to see Orphans : Brannon Masculinity Scale · Holy Virility · Media and gender · Michael Kaufman (author) · Women's education in Saudi Arabia Photo : see Misplaced Pages requested photographs of gender studies Split : History of feminism Stubs : see Gender studies stubs Translate : see /translation Update : edit to see Verify : Riot grrrl Needs attention : see Gender studies articles needing attention Video games Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of video games on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Video gamesWikipedia:WikiProject Video gamesTemplate:WikiProject Video gamesvideo game Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks: Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks view watch edit history shell vg talk alerts purge AfDs Gameplay of Pokémon (4 participants) Lisette Titre-Montgomery (4 participants) Party royale game (3 participants) List of Minecraft characters (7 participants) Carlton Wilborn (5 participants) Cossacks (video games series) (2 participants; relisted) Rat Race (video game) (7 participants; relisted) Red Barrels (3 participants; relisted) Merge discussions Console game (discussion) Atari Interactive (discussion) Nintendo DS Lite (discussion) Pokémon Essentials (discussion) Input lag (discussion) Neo Geo Pocket (discussion) Minecraft – Volume Beta (discussion) Other discussions No major discussions Featured content candidates Donkey Kong (nom) Hotline Miami (nom) The Suicide of Rachel Foster (nom) Bejeweled (video game) (nom) Chris Redfield (nom) Good article nominations Pixel Piracy (start) River Raid (start) The Great Giana Sisters (nom) Dendy (start) Dark Urge (start) Jeanette Voerman (start) Deathloop (start) Quiver (video game) (nom) Regi (Pokémon) (start) Ridley (Metroid) (start) Blast Wind (start) Project Zero 2: Wii Edition (start) Barry Burton (start) Sea of Stars (start) Pokémon Stadium (nom) Otogirisō (start) Schim (start) Bit Pilot (start) Tom Clancy's The Division 2 (start) Unsighted (start) Gardevoir (start) Cybermania '94 (start) End Poem (nom) Nuzlocke (nom) Berzerk (video game) (start) Overcrowd: A Commute 'Em Up (start) Frostpunk (start) DYK nominations Sun Haven Reviews and reassessments A Space for the Unbound (rev) Bejeweled (video game) (rev) The Legend of Dragoon (rev) The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (nom) Appy Awards Articles that need... assessment (4) (0) reassessment (1) cleanup (3) infoboxes (9) cover art (250) screenshots (8,991) photos (70) translation from japan (187) creation merging

This article was nominated for deletion on 14 June 2012. The result of the discussion was keep.

Archives

Archive 1: 2012-06-20 Archive 2: 2012-07-10

Reliable sources

Since a number of editors seem to be unaware of it, here is the Misplaced Pages policy on reliable sources: WP:Reliable Sources Content which does not adhere to these guidelines, posted anywhere within Misplaced Pages, will be removed. Repeatedly reposting the same material, and not seeking consensus on the talkpage, is vandalism. Euchrid (talk) 02:50, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

It would also be helpful for editors with strong feelings on this subject to review Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing.--Nowa (talk) 14:00, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence of WP:TE on this talk page. Carrying out a discussion isn't not inherently tendentious--only insisting on forcing a conversation to keep going in spite of a clear consensus is tendentious (as are things like wikilawyering, civil POV pushing, etc.). If people can present good reliable sources criticizing Sarkeesian, the information may be appropriate for inclusion (though ideally not as a separate criticism section, per WP:NPOV). The discussion above clearly shows someone who doesn't understand our sourcing/OR policy, not someone who is editing tendentiaously. Also, Euchrid is wrong to say that reposting info w/o seeking consensus is vandalism. In fact, WP:VANDAL explicitly says that neither POV pushing nor edit warring are vandalism. They can still lead to being blocked, but they are very definitely not vandalism. Yes, there were major problems before, but the semi-protection seems to have solved the worst of it. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:08, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Good points.--Nowa (talk) 17:55, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Looks like there are already enough reliable sources for this article but if more are needed this New York Times piece discusses the Kickstarter campaign and harassment in question. The story appeared on the front page (A1) of the August 2nd 2012 US edition of the paper. --98.125.169.178 (talk) 11:59, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

That's a good article, thank you. I added an item from it. It may be time to rewrite that section; we can simplify both what the attacks constituted and the response from the media, it doesn't need this much space.--Cúchullain /c 15:20, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I have to wonder why this blogger is a reliable source, but an article on a news site that responds to her ill-researched criticism is not reliable. Even when it showed that her points of view were condemning characters for the wrong reason. Talking about the destructoid article. The one that exhibited how unsuited she was for the task of criticizing women in gaming. Why is one random blogger a reliable source but another isn't? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.230.238.200 (talk) 02:09, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

What blogger are you talking about? The above is an article in the New York Times...ie a professional journalist. DonQuixote (talk) 02:43, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Ben Spurr

Do you think you should include the name of the guy who made the flash game? I found this article saying who he is, plus others mention him. http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/7851/article/woman-receives-death-threats-for-confronting-bendilin-spurr-misogynist-game-designer/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.58.220.42 (talk) 06:19, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure. It seems like the game deserves maybe another sentence describing the response, though any more than that and it's veering too far away from the article's topic and onto gender-based conflict in gaming in general.Euchrid (talk) 07:19, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Article fails to mention trolls

The "Kickstarter campaign and subsequent harassment" fails to mention that many of threats against Anita were not sincere, and were made with the intent of provoking angry responses. This is important information. 69.246.119.186 (talk) 05:46, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

All that the article can discuss is the facts. Interpreting what was meant by the threats isn't up to us, and falls under WP:Original Research Euchrid (talk) 05:58, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

It should also be noted that getting called on threats and intimidation, and then pretending that you weren't really serious, is a classic behavior of domestic abusers and other cowards and bullies. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:09, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Except that for every sincere threat online there are at least 800 that are blowing smoke. Its almost a staple of the internet. Youtube is full of people that will say they will kick your ass but have no intent of doing it. Even 4chan, the source of most fulfilled internet threats probably has a fulfilled to empty ratio of 1 to every 5k. With 4chan and Youtube being the primary sites of sarkeesian threats, it can safely be concluded that it was trolling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.230.238.200 (talk) 01:29, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Article fails to mention criticism

This article is biased because it neglects any criticism of Anita Sarkeesian, and instead focuses on defending her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.112.149.244 (talk) 06:05, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Please point towards a reliable source which mentions some criticism and it'll be included in this article. DonQuixote (talk) 06:27, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Could you also please be more specific about which statements you feel are defending the subject? Euchrid (talk) 06:46, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Regular lurker here, I found this: http://www.destructoid.com/a-response-to-some-arguments-in-anita-sarkeesian-s-interview-230570.phtml 64.42.240.5 (talk) 20:47, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

That article has already been posted and then taken down as a non-notable blog. Euchrid (talk) 21:03, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

How about these: Anita Sarkeesian Part 1: The College Graduate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI) and Anita Sarkeesian Part 2: Burqa Beach Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpFk5F-S_hI). What constitutes what counts as a notable source? --31.185.24.29 (talk) 00:16, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

This article lays out the reliable source guidelines pretty clearly - WP:irs YouTube videos count, for the most part, as self- published sources, and hence are not reliable. Euchrid (talk) 02:13, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

So, because most YouTube videos are not reliable you are not even going to review these? I guess you could always just say it is non-notable if you don't agree with the message. --31.185.24.29 (talk) 12:46, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks and assume good faith. At Misplaced Pages we are obligated to write from a neutral point of view using reliable sources. Generally speaking, consensus does not consider self-published video rants on YouTube to be reliable sources. If you can locate some reliable sources that support your personal personal complaints with Ms. Sarkeesian it would be grounds for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. Please remember that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox and that there is a heightened need for accuracy in this article due to the fact that Ms. Sarkeesian is a living person. Thanks. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 13:03, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

That's right, we have to be especially careful with sources when writing anything negative about a living person. The biographies of living persons guideline, which User:Karimarie linked to, is very clear on this. As a new user, I'd recommend that you familiarize yourself with things like that before criticizing others. Euchrid (talk) 02:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I reviewed the first portion of "Anita Sarkeesian Part 1: The College Graduate". It is an interesting analysis, but as far as I can tell, it is anonymous and self published. In order for a publication (video, blog, or print)to be considered a reliable secondary source, it at least has to be published by a recognized publisher with editorial control. --Nowa (talk) 20:05, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, it's absolutely one of the most cogently argued cases I've heard, and I certainly wouldn't class it with the trolling and harassment that she's received. That doesn't change the facts of the notability policy, though Euchrid (talk) 21:08, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

"it neglects any criticism of Anita Sarkeesian" I don't quite understand. Doesn't the section on her Kickstarter project make it clear that there is a lot of criticism of her?--Nowa (talk) 19:42, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I was just going to ask the same question. I thought censorship was against Misplaced Pages's principles? It's not just "YouTube videos", one of the video game journalist sites that covered her story was critical. 95.103.4.222 (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Which site is that--Destructoid? As explained above, that's just one blogger's personal opinion, which is not the sort of thing we include in Misplaced Pages. Look, this is extremely simple: provide us some good quality reliable sources that criticize her. Then we can include the info. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

censorship was against Misplaced Pages's principle You are confusing censorship with neutral point of view. Censorship is essential to Misplaced Pages. Anything that is not supported by a reliable secondary source gets censored.--Nowa (talk) 20:54, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Censorship is forbidding other people from saying things. Misplaced Pages can't do that. Misplaced Pages articles likewise cannot include everything anyone has ever said about a person. The fact that Sarkessian has been criticised is very well covered in this article - the majority of the Kickstarter section lists the things that were said. I know because I wrote much of it. If you want the article to say that those things were true, well I'm afraid that that isn't going to happen, in the name of neutrality.Euchrid (talk) 22:26, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Anti-Modern Feminism and Anti-Sex positivism

I feel like the article should work in how she has consistently opposed other feminist movements and sex positive movements. She is much more conservative and pro-censorship and I feel the article needs to mention this in addition to accurately describing her worldview she puts forward. 74.70.148.40 (talk) 02:03, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that states that? Euchrid (talk) 02:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I think I found one but I'm not sure if it's a RS. Would a comment from Anita on youtube be considered a reliable source since it is from her?174.3.232.87 (talk) 02:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

No, that would be considered a primary source. Secondary coverage characterizing what she said on the video (in a reliable source) would be acceptable. Visit WP:IRS to find out what constitutes independent reliable sources. BusterD (talk) 02:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm just reading through that now and I'm seeing "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves" so would an article on her blog where she comes out against SlutWalk which is a sex positive movement be allowed because it is a self-published source about herself? Sorry if that sounds slightly convoluted. 174.3.232.87 (talk) 02:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

No, that would be your personal interpretation of the primary source, and that's never acceptable. Clearly she's not describing herself as "pro-censorhip" or "opposing other feminist movements".Cúchullain /c 02:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

From her Slut Walk Article: "I have been quite vocal in my little internet space about my strong dislike for SlutWalk, for the name and for the unstrategic organizing which sadly, seems to ignores the systemic and institutional issues of rape culture, victim blaming and well, radical feminism." I'm not sure how I could be interpreting that wrong as she clearly states her dislike of SlutWalk. I never mentioned "pro-censorhip" or "opposing other feminist movements" so I'm not sure why you're thinking I'm saying that she has those views. From my understanding (which I admit is limited) it should be allowed because it meets all 5 points of criteria for a Self-published source. 174.3.232.87 (talk) 02:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2011/05/link-round-up-feminist-critiques-of-slutwalk/ - Thought I should provide the article so it could be reviewed. 174.3.232.87 (talk) 02:35, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The initial poster certainly did use the terms "pro-censorship" or "opposing other feminist movements", and you responded directly to a question posed to them. If you want to say something different, please indicate what it is so we can determine whether the use is appropriate. To reiterate, primary sources may be used in some circumstances, sparingly and with great caution, but interpretation of primary sources is never acceptable.Cúchullain /c 02:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I responded here since the OP and the header also indicate that this discussion is about potential Anti-Sex positivism views Anita may hold. I don't think any interpretation was made, her direct quote is "I have been quite vocal in my little internet space about my strong dislike for SlutWalk". Since not many third party sources will likely be found on this topic but she herself admits it I think in this circumstance it should be allowed. 174.3.232.87 (talk) 03:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that it's important to fully capture Sarkeesian's position in the Misplaced Pages article, but I don't think that the Slutwalk source is useful, for two reasons. Firstly, it's primarily a round-up of other sources, which aren't all saying the same thing, and as such aren't useful in an article about Sarkeesian, except to infer that she agrees withi them to some degree. Secondly, she doesn't elucidate her own reasons for being against Slutwalk to any great detail - it seems like an off-the-cuff comment, rather than a fully developed position, and not a sufficently prominent part of her broader argument / worldview to merit inclusion. Euchrid (talk) 03:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The fact that it's a roundup does not mean that it cannot be used, because the part being referenced is her personal opinion. And we cannot insist that she provides reasons for her position. The only grounds on which this can be opposed is WP:UNDUE--that is, whether her opinion on this random subject is important enough for inclusion. On that point, I'm not sure; I'd lean towards keeping it out, since I'm sure Sarkeesian has expressed lots of opinions in her blog and vlog, and we certainly don't want to list every single one of them. But we need to follow policies when we decide what to include or not include. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The source could, if we determined it necessary, be used to indicate that Sarkeesian is critical of Slut Walk. It cannot be used to indicate that she is "Anti-Sex Positivism", "Anti-Modern Feminism", or anything else that the source doesn't say directly. As to what it does say, we'd still have to have some reason to include it, and I don't see one. This is an encyclopedia entry, not a list of all the things the subject has ever said or written about. The fact that no secondary sources mention it is probably a good indication that it's not noteworthy enough to include.--Cúchullain /c 14:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Per WP:PRIMARY, "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." In the case of YouTube videos, I'm not sure we'd want to use these to establish any fact concerning a BLP without a reliable secondary. BusterD (talk) 14:24, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

This MS Magazine article may be a useful reference.--Nowa (talk) 18:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

But on reading it, you learn that Sarkeesian has said some nuanced things about SlutWalk that don't fit the tidy sound-bite description of her which started this section. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:49, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Should this article include the nuanced things?--Nowa (talk) 21:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. Sarkeesian is a commentator, which means that she has expressed opinions on a wide variety of things. Trying to list every single one of them would bloat the article and violate WP:UNDUE. Only the core points of her position need to be in the article, and I don't feel like her stance on SlutWalk is one of them. Euchrid (talk) 21:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot the original post in this section--Cuchullain and BusterD are absolutely right--even if we do use this source, we can only state exactly what it says, which is that she disagrees in part with the term "SlutWalk", not to say that she generally is anti-sex positive or whatever. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:17, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Interview with Global News

Sarkeesian was recently interviewed by Global News. Not sure if there's anything useful in there, but here's the source: http://www.globalnews.ca/16x9/video/dangerous+game+tropes+vs+women+bullying/video.html?v=2299118976&p=1&s=dd#video. Kaldari (talk) 22:51, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I'd say that it's at least worth mentioning that it happened. Euchrid (talk) 06:54, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Why? It's just another interview, one of dozens. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:32, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

To my knowledge it's the first time that she's been interviewed on TV news, so it represents a new level of exposure and recognition. Correct me if I'm wrong on that, though. Euchrid (talk) 19:43, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• C-Class biography articles
• C-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Low-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Arts and entertainment work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• C-Class Feminism articles
• Low-importance Feminism articles
• WikiProject Feminism articles
• C-Class Gender studies articles
• Low-importance Gender studies articles
• WikiProject Gender studies articles
• C-Class video game articles
• Low-importance video game articles
• WikiProject Video games articles