Misplaced Pages

Talk:Richard Tylman/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Talk:Richard Tylman Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 16:27, 4 December 2012 editThe Four Deuces (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers50,492 edits →The family tree sources and the RFC close← Previous edit Revision as of 18:09, 4 December 2012 edit undoPiotrus (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers285,738 edits →The family tree sources and the RFC closeNext edit →
Line 128: Line 128:


:What external links are not appropriate can be found at ]. These links appear to violate policy because (1) they "do not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article," (2) the sites are not reliable sources, (6) payment is required for full use. I have brought the topic to ]. ] (]) 16:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC) :What external links are not appropriate can be found at ]. These links appear to violate policy because (1) they "do not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article," (2) the sites are not reliable sources, (6) payment is required for full use. I have brought the topic to ]. ] (]) 16:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

:I fail to see how those links don't form a valid elinks. This is stretching our policies way , way too far. They are relevant and relatively unique, and their reliability, while controversial, is not possible to clearly prove or disprove. The reader should be given the option of investigating them. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]&#124;]</sub> 18:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:09, 4 December 2012

WikiProject iconPolitics of the United Kingdom NA‑class
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomPolitics of the United Kingdom
NAThis page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
WikiProject iconBiography: Politics and Government NA‑class
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
NAThis page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
Taskforce icon
This page is supported by the politics and government work group.
WikiProject iconKent NA‑class
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Kent, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the county of Kent in South East England on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.KentWikipedia:WikiProject KentTemplate:WikiProject KentKent-related
NAThis page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
WikiProject Kent tasks:

Here are some Kent related tasks you can do:

Note: These articles may overlap with those on other related lists. If you would like to make a change, either do so yourself, or make a suggestion.

Articles for deletionThis article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
A fact from Richard Tylman/Archive 1 appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 8 October 2012 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows: A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2012/October. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Richard Tylman.
Misplaced Pages

DYK nomination

Reliable sources

There is a discussion about the reliability of some of the sources used in this article at WP:RSN#Genealogy databases. TFD (talk) 14:20, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Richard Tylman, yeoman

I do not see any reason to put into a footnote that someone who shared the same name as the subject of this article received permission from the courts to trade in grain. Originally the article said they were one and the same person, but that is impossible since one of them died in 1584, while the other appeared in court in 1600. Nor can he be a descendant, since he is described as a "yeoman". Therefore I will remove it as totally irrelevant to the article.

BTW - is there any evidence that the Richard Tylman and Richard Tillman in this article are the same person?

TFD (talk) 17:24, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that the footnote describes things correctly; however it should be split into a proper footnote. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 20:32, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
One more thing. TFD already nominated this entry (same title, but totally different content) for the 4th AfD in somewhat dubitable circumstances during the EEML attack. I would like to suggest that you, TFD, allow other editors to decide what is, and what isn't proper. Your reversion was inappropriate and smacked of WP:COI. Please do not misrepresent the Canterbury records with a made up claim of Tylman appearing in court on that date. The actual document says nothing of the sort. Thanks. Poeticbent talk 20:48, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
See What is a conflict of interest?: "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a vanity press nor a forum for advertising and promoting yourself or your ideas. As such it should contain only material that complies with its content policies, and Wikipedians must place the interests of the encyclopedia first. Any editor who gives priority to outside interests may be subject to a conflict of interest."
It would be a conflict if this article were about myself, but as is clear it is not. I have posted the disputed footnote to WP:NORN. I do not know if that is the correct noticeboard, as I have never before come across a footnote unrelated to the article content that anyone has chosen to reinstate.
TFD (talk)
Asking for more input is always a good idea. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:27, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Copied from deletion discussion

As these notes are about the substance of the article rather than WP policies this seems to be a better location.

  • Comments
    • Faversham had a book entirely about it written in 1776: The History of the Town and Port of Haversham: In the County of Kent by Edward Jacobs. The book lists our subject as a mayor for a year. See page 122.
    • There is then this: An obviously reliable source says: "Richard Tylman of Faversham, yeoman, allowed a badger by Michael Sondes, knight, Richard Sondes, and George Waller, esqs" on July 22, 1600. That throws most of the genealogy references into question, assuming any one accepted them to begin with. A badger is the right to trade food or grains.
    • There is an article "Notes from the records of Haversham, 1500-1600" by J.M. Cowper in the Transactions of the Royal Historical Society, Volume I, here: page 218 which lists the number of houses in Haversham as roughly 200, and population at most 1400 in the time period we are interested in.
    • The book "The Historical Development of the Port of Faversham, Kent 1580-1780" does mention a Tillman from Haversham who was a trader. Since the time and place match, and since the place had just 200 houses (and 200 heads of households), it is reasonable to take this Tillman as Tylman. The place couldn't have had two traders of grain at the same time with such similar names.
    • Per this link the guy seems to have been involved in a court case, with the type marked "concord," against John Cok and his wife, Maria. I don't know what "concord" means here.
    • In the article of the Royal Historical Society mentioned earlier, , on page 169 is a listing of the property of Nicholas Tylman, our subject's father (again, there couldn't have been two Tylmans there at that time heading two different households), at the time of the father's death. Richard Tylman is mentioned nowhere in the text (there is an index at the end, with the Tylman page visible in Google Books preview). Churn and change (talk) 04:59, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

The Nicholas Tylman mentioned in the Royal Society article could not have been the father of Richard Tylman, since Nicholas lived from 1516-1568 while the Royal Society article is about a Nicholas who died in 1577.

The Richard Tylman who was sued over a "concord" could not be Mayor Tylman because the case occured in 1484, 62 years before the future mayor's birth in 1546.

Since the Tylman family had settled in Kent since at least 1225 and several branches of the family had settled in Faversham, it is not reasonable to assume that the Richard Tillman mentioned in the article as living in Faversham in 1580 was the same person as the mayor of Faversham in 1580. It is not uncommon btw for cousins to have the same christian names. In any case that is original research. We would need a source that put this together.

TFD (talk) 05:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

So you are using unreliable genealogical sources to argue against identification from a reliable source (for the Nicholas Tylman case; I do agree about the court case)? All identification in any source requires some interpretation. I don't understand what cousins having the same given name has to do with it. We are talking of Haversham in particular, not Kent in general. We need two traders of food/grains from a place with 200 households, at the same time, with similar given names and slightly different surnames. Excluding that may be OR, but is subject to debate; it is not obviously WP:OR. After all no source is going to say: "This is XYZ who is the subject of the article on XYZ on Misplaced Pages"; we always infer that from context and a set of circumstances (name, place, date, other referential associations). Whether the inference rises to WP:OR depends on editorial discretion. Churn and change (talk) 06:49, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
None of the sources providing lifespans used in the article are reliable. However common sense tells us that a person who was mayor in 1580 could not have been involved in a court case in 1484 and that a former mayor would not be described as a yeoman. The only source that a Nicholas Tylman was the father of Richard Tylman is a non-rs family tree. While it may seem strange to us today, there was a time when families remained in the same location for centuries, so it would not be unusual to find people of the same surname living in the same town. Also, since most corn from North Kent was shipped through Faversham, and trading corn was one of the main industries in Faversham ("The Historical Development of the Port of Faversham, Kent 1580-1780"), there would be many people involved in the trade. To conclude that the mayor and the trader were one and the same person cannot be supported by the sources provided. TFD (talk) 07:33, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

— Preceding section Copied from deletion discussion by ClemRutter (talk • contribs)

pounds of silver

Should be in quotation marks - the usage at that time was for an amount of money and not an amount of weight AFAICT. Collect (talk) 15:28, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing it. I think the actual internal link is Anglo-Saxon pound, but I'm not sure how to convert the amount? Poeticbent talk 19:39, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Cinque ports

This is speculation but it is probably relevant that Faversham was an outlyer (limb) for Dover and thus part of the Cinque ports confederation. Ref. Jessup, Frank W. (1966). Kent History Illustrated. Kent County Council. p. 38. and at this period (very late) all the ports except Dover has silted up and were of little importance. Faversham with its wharfs at Whitstable was in a unique trading position--this is not my period and I have no useful books in my collection to help further- this background needs to be inserted some where. I have mentioned elsewhere that we have an FA on another Elizabethan- who has achieved great fame when virtually nothing is verifiable apart from the fact he died- and he is now credited with being something of a writer! It shows how to handle uncertainty. --ClemRutter (talk) 20:46, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Please add the information about the Faversham's wharfs beneath the section about Tylman's personal life, AGF if need be, because he operated them also. Such background information is essential for the understanding of the true significance of Faversham’s trade, otherwise, the impression might be, that the quantities of grain exported to London from the local traders were comparable across the entire region in Elizabethan times. Poeticbent talk 23:31, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

On line family tree sites

Based on an enquiry at WP:RSN the consensus appears to be that while these sites may publish copies of reliable information, such as certificates of live birth and census records, that the original research of amateur genealogists who post to these sites is not reliable. Therefore I am removing all the unreliable information. I am listing all the sources below in case any editors wish to argue for their inclusion.

  • 1.^ Richard Tylman. Born - 1546 in United-Kingdom. Died - 1584. Genealogy Place - The Ultimate Genealogy Search Engine 2009.
  • 3.^ Richard Tylman of Faversham. The will of Thomas Cobb. Rootsweb genealogy.
  • 6.^ a b Richard Tylman (1546 - 1584) 2012 Ancestry.com. Source: Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812, London, England.
  • 7.^ Richard Tylman and Ellen. 2012 Ancestry.com.
  • 8.^ a b Thomas Cobb's daughter, who married one Richard Tylman of Faversham. Cobbes Eleventh Generation. 2012 Ancestry.com.
  • 9.^ William Tylman, VII (1562–1613/1614). Ancestry Archive 2012.
  • 10.^ Richard Tylman (1569–1614). Ancestry.com 2012.
  • 11.^ Richard Tylman born 1569; Tylman family. Ancestry Archive, 2003 .

TFD (talk) 04:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Inquiry at WP:RS/N was inconclusive and lacking vital information in its initial statement leading only to further misunderstandings. Please wait for feedback here, and allow the necessary time for other editors to complete their research as indicated already, before consensus can be reached. Thanks. Poeticbent talk 10:36, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Richard Tillman

I do not think that the fact the mayor once spelled his name "Tillman" is conclusive evidence that he was the same person. There were after all several people called Richard Tylman in the genealogical databases living at the same time in Faversham and for all we know many more. Since the corn trade was a major industry in Faversham, it is not unreasonable that several of them would have been involved in the trade. BTW Faversham never had a "lord mayor". It appears to be an error in the description of the letter in the source. TFD (talk) 02:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

RfC: Should information sourced to research in genealogical websites be included?

Misplaced Pages has policies governing verifiability, these websites linked to allude to information, but do not provide primary or secondary sources critical to verification. As no verifiable content or evidence is able to be seen on these links, they do not consitute reliable and verifiable sources and should not be used as such. Additionally: I took into consideration this discussion. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC))

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This edit removed information sourced to genealogical websites with the notation, "Remove information sourced to amateur postings on family tree websites". Are any of these sources reliable or should they be excluded? TFD (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

The relevant sources with links are listed below.

  1. Richard Tylman. Born - 1546 in United-Kingdom. Died - 1584. Genealogy Place - The Ultimate Genealogy Search Engine 2009.
  2. Richard Tylman of Faversham. The will of Thomas Cobb. Rootsweb genealogy.
  3. Richard Tylman (1546 - 1584) 2012 Ancestry.com. Source: Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812, London, England.
  4. Richard Tylman and Ellen. 2012 Ancestry.com.
  5. Thomas Cobb's daughter, who married one Richard Tylman of Faversham. Cobbes Eleventh Generation. 2012 Ancestry.com.
  6. William Tylman, VII (1562–1613/1614). Ancestry Archive 2012.
  7. Richard Tylman (1569–1614). Ancestry.com 2012.
  8. Richard Tylman born 1569; Tylman family. Ancestry Archive, 2003 .
    TFD (talk) 15:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Exclude This matter was discussed at WP:RSN#Genealogy databases. My understanding of the discussion is that when copies or extracts of records are used, that they can be used. In that case the records themselves are reliable sources and the website is merely where we found them. However, postings by amateurs tracing their family tree are not reliable sources, because there is no fact-checking. TFD (talk) 15:05, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment When a question is posted: it should avoid weasel words and POV and make it clear that this is part of a long running grudge that the proposer has with another prolific editor. The truth is that none of us get paid to do WP- we are all amateurs and I happen to believe that we produce a work of the highest quality. We know a FA from a stub, and the guys who generate stuff for some Ancestry sites (even those behind a paywall) do it freely, and with the same rigour as ourselves. Some is dross, some are copies of primary sources and other articles are equivalent to the best post doctoral research. One uses discretion- and follows the reference and judges its quality, and if possible re-reference it with the original source. Used this way even poor site can be helful; to bring an article from a stub to a GA. It the article is already a GA these references can be left on the talk page. Making a global rule, on the evidence of one example is poor practice- particularly when one suspects that this will be used later in a sixth AfD debate if the fifth attempt fails.--ClemRutter (talk) 23:05, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
    • The article called "Richard Tylman" that was deleted on its fourth nomination was about a different person. That Richard Tylman was born in Poland in the 20th century. This Richard Tylman lived in England in the 1500s. TFD (talk) 04:07, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fly-by-night

Re: controversial edit by Middletown single purpose IP 75.5.202.21. I'm commenting here, so I won't have to "talk to the hand" in my edit summary. The refs have been discussed at Misplaced Pages:No original research/Noticeboard and at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard under Archive 132 Genealogy databases. A number of editors spoke out about Ancestry.com webpage. There were no objections to using an authored piece written by a geneaology expert complete with cited references. The study by Robert Stanley Cobb posted on Ancestry.com under "Cobbes Eleventh Generation" could have been posted anywhere – considering its quality, but the author chose to use the Genealogy databases instead. This reference wasn't challenged by anybody at all at WP:RS/N which means it was basically approved as reliable. I left my own comment there at WP:RS/N. Here's what I said:

Regardless of how the genealogy search engines are built, they are also commonly used in Misplaced Pages for a variety of reasons including the cross-verification of data already present somewhere else. Please remember, the period in question is the Elizabethan England of the Tudor Dynasty... nobody can benefit from tampering with these records online for some abstract benefit of theirs. In this particular instance, different search engines were used expressly to confirm the bits and pieces of information about Richard Tylman (Tillman) including his family history and business dealings already mentioned in reliable third party sources, such as the PDF theses on the Faversham economic history by Paul Wilkinson, PhD, as well as the 1774 history of the town by Edward Jacob made available by the University of Wisconsin...
— User:Poeticbent

Other experienced long-term editors also spoke out in defence of my references at WP:RS/N including My very best wishes (talk · contribs) and Piotrus (talk · contribs) – quoting academic reviews and content of databases used in scientific research.(, , ). It is not acceptable, to be ignoring their input (or anybody's input...), while waging a revert war based on misleading edit summaries. Poeticbent talk 16:31, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

You are misinterpreting that discussion. Certain documents that appear on webistes may be reliable sources. The conclusions drawn by amateur genealogists are not. BTW your conclusion that the subject of this article received a permit to deal in grain posthumously makes no sense. No reason either to mention the names of the magistrates. TFD (talk) 17:14, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Please note that I have already accepted the fact that the dates quoted by anonymous editors at Ancestry.com might not be reliable, and therefore I did not return them to the lead in this article. I'd like to repeat also what ClemRutter said above: "we are all amateurs". Poeticbent talk 17:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

The family tree sources and the RFC close

Since I've closed the RFC after its long inactivity, the page has become active again. I don't want to be involved in any squabbles here, and I really do not care about the subject of the article. As an independent and uninvolved user, I closed the RFC, making a decision on policy and the arguments themselves. The simple fact was that the sources used were improper, unverifiable and unreliable. A family tree that references nothing, but the amateur postings of its members is not reliable. I'd have said it was okay if primary sources were used or if they were backed by reputable research and not the said-so of an unknown individual. Please do not reopen the discussion again. If you have such a problem, open a new RFC or discuss it here. The other was long due for a close. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Chris- I realise you are trying to restore sanity to an article about a long dead mayor of a small town 30km from here, but I can happily agree that two commercial websites are not valid sources. I fail to understand how they shouldn't be cited for external links- so the dear reader can share the external links he will need to use if he wishes to do OR. I fail to understand how an article can be improved, if editors who have little contact with the subject matter can zap a whole section without constructively providing alternative material- just because they have read some distant RFC. Can I leave you to ponder that- ask you to look at items on this page that have been deleted rather than answered- then pop on round for some coffee and hot mince pies because it would be great to have a chat. --ClemRutter (talk) 16:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
What external links are not appropriate can be found at WP:ELNO. These links appear to violate policy because (1) they "do not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article," (2) the sites are not reliable sources, (6) payment is required for full use. I have brought the topic to WP:ELN. TFD (talk) 16:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I fail to see how those links don't form a valid elinks. This is stretching our policies way , way too far. They are relevant and relatively unique, and their reliability, while controversial, is not possible to clearly prove or disprove. The reader should be given the option of investigating them. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 18:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Categories: