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Seeming source of the problem

• The source of the problem seems to be that Raul stopped editing over two months ago, and Dabomb, the delegate, has limited time. TFA's were not being selected until an hour or less before their appearance on the main page, and primary authors weren't being notified in time to clean up the article, and sometimes not notified at all. There was much complaining from FA editors. Poor articles, often old, no longer up to par with current FAC requirements and with maintenance tags were appearing as TFAs.

• Enough people weren't willing to vet articles, calculate points and nominate articles so that Dabomb did not have a decent selection and had to pick unvetted article at the last minute from those that hadn't appeared on the main page. (Points are often calculated inaccurately, so Dabomb would have to check the points even if the nominator provided them.) Gerda's solution was an attempt to address this problem, since so many are unwilling to nominate articles and calculate points.

• Having just checked the polar expedition articles and the star articles to determine their frequency of appearance this year, it is a job to figure out when the sequence of the last appearances, never mind the other point requirements (which I didn't check and would be hard to do - like is this the main editor's first appearance on the main page, anniversaries, geographical over representation and such.) I found the articles were "bunched" and certain topics (polar expeditions) were over selected under the "old" system.

• The "points" are not well understood. Birthdays are often used for points, which Raul specifically says do not count. Further, as Raul says, the FA categories are not the same as categories used for TFA selection, such as a biography of a film director is not the same category as a review of the film, so each were not prevented from appearing near each other. Also, some categories pertain only to certain countries and exclude others. Raul is no longer around to clarify these misunderstanding such as occurred with the Stephen Crane nomination. Thus there are unresolved arguments about what the individual "points" mean.

• Gerda's suggestions for increasing the slots for article suggestions alleviated this problem and gave Dabomb more to select from, preventing the last minute choices and the many complaints. Gerda's solution at least provides Dabomb with some assistance, and I am not aware that he has complained. Rather, his job seems more manageable now.

• If someone has a better solution, please offer it - especially since some FA editors are unwilling to nominate articles. MathewTownsend (talk) 15:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget, there is Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article/emergency just in case too. We could put a couple more in there too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:12, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

We should probably cycle those from time to time.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:14, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Just one comment for now: Mathew, do you have a link or diff for Raul saying that birthdays don't count? My understanding of the workings of this page is that birthdays count but anniversaries of death usually do not. See Raul's comment at the nomination of John Lennon for December 8, 2010: "I'm OK with this date request because his assassination is itself notable." Bencherlite 20:45, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry my wording was too casual, Bencherlite. Recently someone gave points to feature Princess Maria Amélia of Brazil for December 1 because she was born on December 1, 1831. However, Raul has said in his "Notes" regarding date relevance: "Multiple points are only awarded for the anniversary of an event receiving significant coverage in the article or, in a biographical article, for the anniversary of a major life event." As I interpret Raul's wording from that sentence and some of his other comments, if a subject was born on November 5, for example, November 5 would not be enough of a date relevance as it is not a specific "anniversary" according to the way Raul defines anniversaries. Only an "anniversary" of that birth would count, e.g. 25th anniversary or some such. Also, how much "significant coverage" of a birth must be given in the article? e.g. more than the usual details about the birth? (Hope I'm wording this clearly - this is as I understand Raul's wordings made at various places.) The example you give regarding Lennon seems to be because the date was an anniversary of his death, IMO. - although the link also quotes User:Iridescent as saying: "I know Raul dislikes death anniversaries", the quote from Raul is "I'm OK with this date request because his assassination is itself notable." so I'm not clear what anniversaries are ok, since the "death" anniversary dislike is not in the point rules. And it seems to me that there would be very few equally notable births. Is there a statement by Raul clarifying the needed notability of a birth or death to count besides widely covered assassinations of extremely famous people? MathewTownsend (talk) 14:17, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Hunting through the TFAR archives, I found this discussion from 2009 which clearly worked on the basis that birthdays would count as a point bonus; the discussion was formalised a couple of threads later on the same page, with many of the same participants (including me!) - so I think I've established to my satisfaction that my memory is not at fault. A birthday, or anniversary of birthday, is still an "anniversary" even if it is not divisible neatly by 5 or 10. My recollection is that the "death date anniversary" was often looked as a weak claim to an extra point, which is why Raul made a point of saying that Lennon's death was noticeable. Diffs to support that recollection will be harder to find since it will be mostly in the page history of the discussions, which aren't archived. However, Iridescent's comment and Raul's reply are good evidence of the point, I think. Come to think of it, Wehwalt has a lot of experience in the points system so he might be able to help my recollections... Bencherlite 14:53, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

More or less. The death date by itself is going to raise eyebrows. Sometimes it was overlooked for the sake of peace, or to encourage an editor.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I think we should hear from Dabomb how useful the points are to him. The point system is complicated and not intuitive. If it isn't that useful to Dabomb, we might want to simplify or scrap it.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:38, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

It was intended, like the whole current system, to bring order to competition for places, which is currently less of an issue, and to highlight positive and negative aspects in terms of diversity, avoiding similar TFAs close together, preference for "widely-covered" subjects and older articles, and so on. These factors remain important. I was dubious about the changes this summer, but have to say they don't seemed to have caused problems, except that I think this second group of factors are tending to be forgotten. Gerda in particular is doing fine work, but seems heedless of these issues, and frankly unreliable in her assessment of "similarity". This I think ultimately places more work on others, especially Dabomb, & I'd be interested to hear how he feels about the current situation, and officially abolishing the points system. Johnbod (talk) 17:30, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's my problem of not seeing similarities if a writer is chosen (for a valid reason) just before another one (Stephen Crane) was requested, a medieaval bishop is scheduled although a different one was on TFAR for a week later, or - today - a pilot when there is one waiting in the pending list for 4 Dec. It tells me that Dabomb should not handle those things alone, it seems too much for him. I suggested that several others should have the right to schedule, because I think it's too much for any given person. As of today, we are looking ahead just 2 days. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:17, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I was making the simple point that you are still doing nominations without attempting to cover the "points" issues such as similar articles in any way. I wasn't thinking of particular examples, though if you want to go there your belief that the Lost operas of Monteverdi was unique and not similar to to other articles on opera sticks in the mind. Johnbod (talk) 17:28, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I will not calculate points until I get an answer who needs them for what. I am trying to learn. Lost operas are no operas, no? We don't have most of their music, it's a completely different article content than the usual Tosca or whatever, - points will not be able to do justice to it. - Forget my complaints about only two days ahead, - Dabomb (not Raul) scheduled a few more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:39, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, at one time there was intense competition for main page slots. However, that has subsided.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:08, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Gerda is right I think. One choice was a book review, the other a biography of a writer - not the same according to my understanding of Raul's rules. However, long, discursive arguments on the nomination page are discouraging. IMO Gerda was a breath of fresh air, and for a while I was enthusiastic about helping out with the TFA page, rewriting blurbs, looking for FA nominations etc., but apparently its going back to the same old way. I'll not nominate FA's because I don't understand the points and don't have the knowledge to go searching through years and years of archives to figure them out. (Fortunately two of my choices got on the main page before the breath of fresh air was closed down.) It was fun while it lasted. MathewTownsend (talk) 15:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Nice to hear that I am right, but it was a bit different: the similarity between book and writer was accepted as not significant, but then Ian Fleming came suddenly (for the new 007 film what I called a valid reason), and that made it writer next to writer, similarity accepted. I like to hear even more that I am like a breath of fresh air, thank you! I am missing so many supportive friends that I would really like to have your support continued, Mathew, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Mathew, here's the simple truth. I opposed Stephen Crane so as to avoid another fun event like this one that Maria had to endure. She almost left over it, and if researching and writing good pages is to met with that kind of crap when it runs on the front page, I think that any editor should be shielded from having to go through it more than once in a single month. Unfortunately we don't have a mechanism to stop that kind of behavior, so I opposed the nomination (and there were good reasons: the same editor in a short period, another author in the queue, the similarity to the other piece) and sent Maria email to apologize. Can you now please drop the stick? Truthkeeper (talk) 16:06, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

If you (usually followed by Ceoil) will stop posting after every comment I make. Since you are repeating yourself I will repeat myself. Your comment doesn't make sense and is not a "simple turth". The simple truth is the two articles involved were not in the same "category" according to Raul's rules and could have each been run. MathewTownsend (talk) 17:05, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Mathew, what two articles are you referring to? Stephen Crane and Pilgrim at Tinker Creek or Crane and Ian Fleming? The latter pairing is ultimately why Crane's nomination failed -- after Fleming was nominated, Crane's nom received three or four opposes (including mine) that pointed out that featuring two white male authors on the main page within eight days of one another does not exemplify diversity of subject matter. TK had her personal reasons for opposing Crane's nom, but that's not why the nomination failed -- it was bad timing. I would also like to point out that Crane's nomination should have been removed ages before it was, and then even after it was removed it was accidentally scheduled by Dabomb to appear on November 2nd -- the day after it was nominated for. So, after all of the supporting/opposing and removal from TFAR, it was added to the freaking queue anyway. It's kind of funny, but also fairly annoying. I'm not blaming Dabomb in the least, but obviously there's something wrong with the system if more people can't or simply aren't paying attention. María (yllosubmarine) 17:26, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Stephen Crane and Pilgrim at Tinker Creek - that's what Truthkeeper88's lengthy and repeated objection to my posts on the nomination page addressed. I wasn't involved in anything regarding Ian Fleming, his article didn't enter the thread when I was posting and I wasn't aware of his nomination. MathewTownsend (talk) 17:54, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

The discussion reminds of my recent comment ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:29, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

You say there were misunderstandings about Crane's nom, but the only one you can point to is TK comparing Crane to Pilgrim in her oppose rationale (which another user agreed with, btw). Again, that's not why the article wasn't scheduled for TFA -- it wasn't scheduled because of Fleming, which multiple people agreed was too similar to Crane. I don't think this one article failing to appear on the main page is a worthy example of a failed system. The nom was up for ages, and TK's objections were only a smattering of what was wrong with it. Perhaps said objection was merely what you took umbrage at? If so, let it be. María (yllosubmarine) 18:46, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

That was the one I was referring to. Truthkeeper posted other lengthy links on the same subject. I just gave you an example. There was also the horrible ugliness over my Miss Moppet nomination, all because I didn't know about the secret list of FAs that can't ever be on the main page. (That's still not been settled, though I took the heat from Truthkeeper and Ceoil.) From that time on TK put length posts after all my comments. Ceoil supported Truthkeeper and accused me of a conspiracy against another editor that I've never hear of. It was an ugly experience for me. MathewTownsend (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

@Mathew. Is saying "I'll not nominate FA's because I don't understand the points and don't have the knowledge to go searching through years and years of archives to figure them out." yet another iteration of your "newbie" argument? I'm flabbergasted, because this page requires a minimum of institutional knowledge. Hell, the full instructions are at the top of the page. Ed  21:16, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Addendum after your post above: the Miss Moppet debacle wasn't a picnic for us too. See your own archives: this, this (I didn't know it was possible to frustrate MRG), and this. Many people have tried to help you, and you have either ignored or spurned them. Ed  21:51, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, the instructions are on top. Some people may just follow instructions because they are there. I asked what function the points serve (just one example), and got no good answer. I asked Dabomb, who seems the only one for whom they may be of interest. - The process has changed since the rules were written. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

The process has not changed - all that's changed is the number of slots for nominations. You've been repeatedly told the functions that the points serve e.g. Johnbod's comment above: It was intended, like the whole current system, to bring order to competition for places, which is currently less of an issue, and to highlight positive and negative aspects in terms of diversity, avoiding similar TFAs close together, preference for "widely-covered" subjects and older articles, and so on. These factors remain important. What's the problem with that explanation? Bencherlite 11:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

The definition is fine. I may have a problem with English. "...to bring order to competition ..." means to me that we don't need points if there's no competition. When I propose an article I am offering it for discussion and improvement, always ready to accept that others may think it is not good to run it that day or not at all. No competition. I see that as a change in the process, from competition to discussion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:52, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

With respect, the last few weeks suggest otherwise. This would seem typical. I get you are trying to help, but you are reailroading to a certain extent now. Reform is fine, welcome ever, but obstinacy is not the path. Ceoil (talk) 01:14, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

• Re The Story of Miss Moppet was closed at FAR as a Keep. Comment by Hawkeye7: "The article was nominated for TFA by a newbie editor who was completely unaware of the history. This is likely to recur." MathewTownsend (talk) 23:27, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

  And? If it's renominated by someone who doesn't know the history, that's why we have delegates and a director (to deal with the situation). Perhaps folks will begin to respect the hard work they do, and that there is some institutional memory. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:37, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

How to request

OK, per the section above on the periodic table, I thought I would nominate this article to be TFA. However, I cannot find any instructions on how to nominate the article. I think it would be really helpful for people if there were instructions, as I literally have no idea what I am supposed to do right now. If someone could nominate the article for me, I would be grateful. StringTheory11 (t • c) 00:56, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Are the lengthy instructions at the top of the page not enough? That's not sarcasm - a lot of people have tried to make a complicated process as comprehensible as possible, and if people aren't understanding it they need to be improved. Mogism (talk) 01:01, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

I read the instructions, but nowhere does it say how to nominate it. It very comprehensively covers the criteria, but I can't find anywhere where it says something like "to nominate an article, go to Misplaced Pages:Sandbox", or "edit section A, add a blurb about the article, and explain why it should be TFA". StringTheory11 (t • c) 01:06, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

This diff might help. Double sharp (talk) 05:41, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Or tell me, I am not afraid to make mistakes ;) which article for when? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:12, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

The article is Periodic table, and would presumably (am I right, StringTheory11?) be for a non-specific date slot. Double sharp (talk) 08:59, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

There was a discussion, I would conclude the same, that StringTheory11 wants to take care of it, Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:46, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done; the article is now up! StringTheory11 (t • c) 18:35, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Personally I would favor just assigning a -5(or so) point value every time an article has been TFA in the past, and then saying open season. However, as Raul has mentioned, this is all moot. Tazerdadog (talk) 03:48, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I think that's a most interesting suggestion that certainly merits further discussion. — Cirt (talk) 22:51, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I have a dream

User G suggests an article for a day.

The author and User B trim the blurb.

User P looks at the referencing.

User R improves it.

User T improves the prose.

User N finds a better picture.

User S finds that a similar article was run shortly before.

We park it for later, but have it ready then. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:19, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Let's get real. I invite that - before coming here - suggestions are made on WP:QAI/TFA, to be discussed, improved and timed in collaboration. At present, that page holds the suggestions that were rejected here for different reasons. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:36, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

• Now widely covered physicist Stephen Hawking can be discussed for his seventieth birthday on 8 January --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:43, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

If you want to nominate it, please do so at WP:TFAR as usual; setting up a rival discussion page is not a good idea. Bencherlite 08:51, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I would like to nominate it, but need help in calculating the points and trimming the blurb, - I thought I should seek that help first elsewhere ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

There's no need to still act as if you don't know what you're doing around here. That blurb is an acceptable length (as you'd know if you stuck the visible text into a word processor and asked it how many characters were there) and a points calculation shouldn't be too hard for you - the instructions are clear and you've seen it done often enough. If and when you nominate the article properly, remember that the image should not be on the right hand side and the standard image size is 100px. Bencherlite 09:07, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I try to ignore "act as if" ;) - to the points: 1 for quinvigintennial (what a word!), 2 for widely covered, "Vital" and "Core" I don't know, it looks like it's the author's first FA (+1) but how would I know for sure? I think the subject is underrepresented, +1, the last physicist seems to have been on 30 May, +2, total of 6 or more, do you agree? This exercise took me 15 minutes, and what do we gain compared to "widely covered physicist on his seventieth birthday? I will nominate him now ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

For a start, it's his 71st birthday in 2013. So just 1 for birthday; 4 for vital (as he's in the "people" list at Misplaced Pages:Vital articles/Expanded); it is not your FA so the "first TFA point as nominator" doesn't apply (if it is the nominator's first TFA and if he adopts the nomination, then the bonus point can be claimed); not underrepresented since "physics and astronomy" is not in the list at footnote 4 (because it has more than 50 FAs); 2 for no scientists in the last six months. Total 7. What we gain is a better sense of the reasons for running this article on this date, as opposed to any other article (either nominated or chosen directly by a delegate) or on any other date. I know you think that there isn't competition now that there are potentially 12 spaces on the page, but every article nominated here is still competing for a delegate's attention against the options available from the 1,300+ others at WP:FANMP. Low points = low priority = more likely to be overlooked in favour of a "free pick". Bencherlite 10:21, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

thanks for helping my math (I prefer to make music), - also for the Vital articles link (learning), - and forgive me for still not understanding how "7 points" would create more attention than "widely covered and vital", a mere number vs. naming what deserves attention. It looks like I should better let the author nominate? That was another point I wanted to discuss before the nomination, but then forgot, sorry, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:33, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

That "vital articles" link should be in the instructions; I'll fix that. Bencherlite 10:40, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! I suggest not to see the QAI list as a rival but as an offer for preparation, free in time, free in format, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:37, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

New TFAR delegates - Bencherlite and Gimmetrow

I have, in consultation with the existing delegates, decided to appoint Bencherlite and Gimmetrow (aka, Gimmetoo) as the new TFAR delegates. Raul654 (talk) 23:24, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

• Kewlz. Congrats all — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:30, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Seconded. Both are excellent picks. Ed  23:38, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
    • Sounds good. Is Dabomb87 continuing as a delegate? --Rschen7754 23:54, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
      • Yes, he is. While we were discussing the appointments, I asked if any delegates wanted to change roles or resign, and none of them said they wanted to. Raul654 (talk) 00:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
    • Congrats guys! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
• Welcome to the real fun, guys! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Congrats :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
  • +1 Johnbod (talk) 02:36, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to all (and to those who left messages on my talk page) for your good wishes. Bencherlite 14:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Congrats to you, Bencherlite, and to whoever had the good sense to recommend you.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:10, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Most splendid developments indeed! :) — Cirt (talk) 22:50, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Queries

Since we now have four mainpage schedulers, will you all be setting up a centralized page so that we will know who's doing what when and who we should contact in the event of a problem? Will you be dividing the work by day, week, ad hoc, what? The idea that notifications must be done has crept into some discussions (not part of the job IMO); do you all have plans on that score, or if TFAs are assigned well in advance (and the maindate parameter is added to article talk), can we leave that to watchlists? Who is adding maindate? And significantly, will anyone be taking on the task of maintaining this page? The point tallies are never correct, the blurbs are frequently off in various ways, and as of this moment, there is a blurb on the page that should have been removed at least 24 hours ago. I used to check in and correct things as I could, but with four schedulers, do you still want the community to try to update the page, or will you all be doing it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:02, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've scheduled five days and will see if I can do some more in a bit. My goodness, it's a slow process to start with - finding the articles, checking for recent similar ones, checking for deadlinks or other maintenance tags, getting a blurb of a decent length, updating the "recently featured" list, protecting the article... Let's hope I get quicker with practice! To answer your questions: (1) I don't know (2) I don't know (3) I'm quite happy to add maindate= to the talk page as I'll have it open anyway, but the bot does this if I forget, I think; I think I'll leave user notifications to the bot, for reasons of time as much as anything. (4) I don't see that the addition of two TFA delegates means that the community has no role in updating this page, because every little helps. Getting ready to schedule, and then scheduling, five articles has taken me 90 minutes FWIW. Bencherlite 14:26, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to The Hardest Job on the Misplaced Pages (where everyone has an opinion :) I'm hoping you all will set up a coordination page, so the community will know who's doing which days, etc ... unless you all plan to do that here. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:55, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Am I right in thinking that the FAC delegates have, or used to have, a coordination page? Bencherlite 14:59, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Correct -- it was initially in my userspace, but when I resigned, I suggested the new delegates just move it ... I think it ended up in Ucucha's space ... check his subpages. In the case here, though, you might set up a subpage of this page. It would be where the four of you could coordinate schedules, and where the community would know who to contact in the event the time approaches where there is no TFA scheduled, someone wants to request a change, etc. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:01, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

PS, what worked for us is to keep delegate comments on the user subpage, with community comments confined to the talk page ... so threaded comments were archived from talk, but delegate recusals, etc are listed on the main user page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:16, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

(ec)Congratulations Bencherlite! I used to some combing for appropriate articles, checking the state of the article, then the checking for recent similar ones, age of the FA, looking for anniversary dates etc. to get ready for scheduling, check blurb length and copyedit blurbs etc. and did find it quite time consuming, especially the checking for "recent similar". (That's how I found that all of the FA polar articles were scheduled for this year and at least three actually ran, leaving only one, if I remember correctly!) Glad you're aboard to do the work! Five articles in 90 minutes is quite fast I think. MathewTownsend (talk) 15:12, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations to all, things seem to be coalescing and coming together quite nicely. :) — Cirt (talk) 22:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Ace Books

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but Ace Books, which was the first FAC I worked on, has been scheduled for 12/6. It's undoubtedly the weakest of the FAs I've worked on, and I wouldn't have been astonished if someone had taken it to FAR. Is it in good enough shape to run? If there is consensus it's OK, I'll leave it be, but if people here think it needs work perhaps it should come off the TFA schedule. I'll commit to trying to improve it if that happens. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

(Note - he means December 6th!) Johnbod (talk) 17:23, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

• It's short enough, but still an FA. The only issue I see at a (very quick) glance is a bare URL as ref 43. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:36, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Also, some of those refs could be given more information (publication data, for example) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:37, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

    I'll do a clean up pass. Another question: this is the first time I've had an FA on the main page on a topic that is still in existence. Would it be OK if I emailed the current Ace Books and let them know about it? I might be able to get more sources from them, and they might be willing to comment on the accuracy and completeness of the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

    Why not? Bencherlite 09:16, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

    Go for it, but give the response a critical reading (i.e. avoid PR talk) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:28, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• There are a few things that rather date it to late 2006 or Feb 2007. Principally the section Ace_Books#Editorial_staff, especially the "2007 - to present" bit which is referenced to something retrieved in 2006. My suspicion is that some unreferenced updates may have snuck in. Also "planned for the remainder of the year" seems to be referring to 2006. Also I'm assuming that they only published in American English and mainly for the US market - a little globalisation might be useful here. ϢereSpielChequers 00:15, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Christmas

1. "Mr. Hankey, the Christmas Poo" has been scheduled by me for 17th December, so there are twelve clear days for those who wish to improve the prose further to do so. If anyone has real complaints about it being scheduled, please take them to User talk:Raul654, not here. If he wishes to unschedule it, so be it.
2. Any suggestions for 25th December? FYI, very few TFAs on Christmas Day have had a seasonal link or theme, perhaps just 2011, 2009 and 2004(ish). FYI – 2011 Red-capped Robin / 2010 Lemur / 2009 Christmas 1994 nor'easter / 2008 Robert Sterling Yard / 2007 Flight feather / 2006 Clement of Dunblane / 2005 Ido / 2004 Shroud of Turin.

In other business, the non-specific date slots have gone very quiet... Bencherlite 23:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

From the other business: quiet indeed, people missing, and being told that you can have only one nomination at a time (even if it is not your own, all different topics, different authors), - a rule that doesn't make sense to me but here it is, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:17, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

(Strongly) suggest William the Conqueror. As the date the Norman Conquest was completed, and of his coronation, it has undoubted strong date relevance (his birthdate is lost, and 26 September and 14 October (the other two significant dates in his life; his landing in England and the death of Harold Godwinson) aren't commemorated in any way and are only of interest to historians. Running this on the traditionally low-vandalism day of December 25 would have the additional bonus of showcasing a high-value topic whilst avoiding tying the authors up grimly reverting vandals all day. – iridescent 00:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I or User:PKM have had an art Nativity in the DYK picture slot for the last 3 of the last 4 years, for part of the day anyway, along with other Christmassy stuff, & I will aim to do so again, so the very un-festive William can have the top of the page. Johnbod (talk) 00:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Funnily enough, I had thought of William the Conqueror already, remembering his coronation date (spot the man married to a medieval historian...) but I'm a little reluctant to schedule it when Ealdgyth is rather unwilling. Any other thoughts? Bencherlite 02:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I am working on expansion of BWV 40 for a Christmas DYK, celebrating Jesus as the conqueror of sin. On that background, William seems not to fit too well, - also we had many English recently. Shroud of Turin would have been much better on Good Friday than for Christmas. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:17, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I can't decipher what your're saying, but you seem to be suggesting we should choose TFAs around potential DYKs-- I don't understand that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Tough to explain, DYK is only what keeps me busy, nothing to take into account for the choice. - Here the conqueror of sin - there William the Conqueror, that's what would be a bit difficult for me. - How about Auriga (constellation), celestial but not religious? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

@Sandy—"We know DYK is planning to run a number of articles on Christian topics, so TFA ought to be on an unrelated matter to avoid swamping the main page and leading to complaints of Christian bias". (As an aside, every time I look at Misplaced Pages these days I seem to see you making snotty comments to someone or other. I don't know or care what the background is, but at least 50% of the posts in your recent talk history are reminiscent of Mattisse at her craziest. Unless you're aiming to go down in flames, you might want to ease off.)

@Gerda—I'm aware English isn't your first language, but your comment really makes no sense. No sane person is going to confuse William the Conqueror with Jesus Christ on the grounds that both are conquerors, which is what you appear to be suggesting. And what has Auriga—which has no discernable connection to December 25 and is barely even visible from most of the world at that time—got to do with anything? – iridescent 15:52, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

@Sandy (if I may say so): I have no problem with this comment of yours. - I am not afraid that anybody will "confuse" William with Jesus, but I see the term conqueror applied in a religious sense here and in a very worldly sense there. - I tried to find a FA without religious connotations but "stellar", and found Auriga. - If you look at the DYK plans, most are not Christian, just seasonal. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, thanks for clarifying and answering my question in spite of the interference-- that helps. If you can suggest better wording for "I can't decipher what you're saying, but you seem to be suggesting ... " I'm all ears! I still don't know where Iri's DYK quote comes from. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:44, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the quote on DYK plans, but 1) I don't know from whence it came (or how I should have been aware of it), nor 2) do I understand why TFA has to be run around DYK already creating a bias. Nor do I understand why Gerda thinks the concept of "sin" would be a basis for choosing TFA (NPOV), but I'm still not understanding her point. So, Iri; fill me in: how is "I can't decipher what you're saying" snotty relative to: "I'm aware English isn't your first language, but your comment really makes no sense. No sane person ... " I'm glad you're aware that English isn't Gerda's first language (I wasn't), but in my book, saying I can't make out what you're trying to say is a lot less snotty than questioning someone's sanity or command of English as a first language. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:00, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

As much as I hate going off topic, I'm going to second Iri's post. I certainly haven't been an angel either, but the underlying point was the same. Ed  16:07, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

As much as I hate staying on topic, perhaps you could answer the query I posed to Iri: how would you phrase "I can't decipher what you're saying, but you seem to be suggesting ... " Would you phrase it in terms of someone's sanity or command of English? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

There's December 1969 nor'easter, which started on 25 December? Anyone able to get Christmas truce from GA to FA for next year? Edgepedia (talk) 16:58, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I've been thinking about Christmas truce recently - the version that passed GA was pretty flaky (see notes on talk) and I tried to rewrite it heavily in late 2010, but it's stalled since then. I'd certainly be up for having a go at it next year, as I've gone over a lot of the relevant literature since. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:05, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

That would be good to have, but I'm gathering next year is the 99th anniversary ... :)--Wehwalt (talk) 18:08, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

ah, but we can strike when they're least expecting it! ;-) Andrew Gray (talk) 18:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I think there is a misunderstanding here .. I'm always "unwilling" about articles I've worked on going to TFA - it's a major hassle and pain in the arse, quite honestly. That said, they obviously have to go sometime. Billy the Bastard doesn't really have many great date tie-ins - either his coronation date, death date or the date of Battle of Hastings - 14 October. So if folks want a non-religious Christmas day TFA, he's probably the best choice of what's available. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:24, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, you are a saint and a scholar. Bencherlite 13:14, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Points for non-anglosphere article?

It hasn't really mattered much since there's currently very little competition for specific dates, but I wonder if extra points would be worthwhile for articles that cover things outside the English-speaking world? That might possibly help with some of the diversity issues brought in earlier discussions.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 06:10, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

• We need the articles first, and there don't seem to be many from non-English areas. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Most articles that people want to see run, get run, and so having a couple of extra points may be a nice reward for good work, but it isn't going to be the prime factor in motivation.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

• I like this suggestion, it's a great idea to encourage diversity. :) — Cirt (talk) 22:42, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Instructions

Re this edit, I can't decipher what "Nominators unconnected with the article do not need to worry about whether someone else could claim the point." is intending to say. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:31, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I deciphered that by nominating for someone else, I did not ruin that editor's claim for the extra point, in case it was of any interest to anybody, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:08, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Still not clear-- could someone repair the wording? If a regular follower of the page doesn't understand the intended meaning, it may be even less clear to a newcomer. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:02, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Undone my edit. The point I was trying to clarify is that the point is scored only if the person making the request (a) is a significant contributor and (b) hasn't had a TFA before. If I nominate someone else's article, I don't need to worry about their TFA history. So, Gerda, unless you're nominating one of your FAs, you can always skip that step. Bencherlite 13:03, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, so now I'm really confused :) I thought the point for the significant contributor was scored regardless of who made the TFAR nomination. The point of the significant contributor point (!) is to get equal time to all FA writers, regardless of who nominates at TFAR. Did I miss a step somewhere? If we get more clear on this, then we can fix the text you wanted to add. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:05, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Back ... reviewing the page, I see we now say: " The requestor is a significant contributor to the article, and has not previously had an article appear as Today's featured article: 1 point" (emphasis mine), so I do seem to have missed a step (and don't understand why we would deny the point for this reason, but anyway ... ) So, it seems we already have this clarification in the instructions ? Using a concrete example on the page now (Stephen Hawking), are we trying to say that because the significant contributor (Fayed) showed up after someone else nominated, Fayed can now add on the point? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:21, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

well, Bencherlite said in reply: "The easy answer is still yes. You can claim the point, but no-one can claim it on your behalf - that's not changed. 8 points. MathewTownsend (talk) 19:46, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, MT-- I hadn't visited the mainpage here yet. OK, so if that's the case, are those the consequences we intend? It seems like an unnecessary step, when the point will be granted anyway. And then the next step is how to reword the addition to the instructions, since (at least) I couldn't follow the original addition.

While we're on the Hawking nomination, I'm wondering why folks are nominating articles without checking with significant contributors. See the talk page of that article: it was nominated with citation tags, and there's a good deal of work needed to address the issues and prepare it for mainpage (the significant contributor had not re-visited the article for quite some time, apparently, based on the amount of time the tags went unaddressed). It seems that burdening a significant contributor with preparing an article over the holidays is .. ickey ... and inquiring in advance about the citation needed tags might have been courteous. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. When I wanted to nominate United States v. Wong Kim Ark, I asked Richwales first. He said he wanted to nominate it to get the extra point for first FA. So that took care of that! MathewTownsend (talk) 20:14, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems like an unnecessary step to add the additional point on only after the significant contributor requests it. But I seem to remember we had a reason for that ... ?? Need to check archives. It was courteous of you to check with RichWales: I'm not sure we need to codify that in already lengthy page instructions, but the amount of work that the Hawking article needs is troubling, and that it has to be done over the holidays is ickey. It would be nice of folks to check with significant contributors-- even more so when the article has maintenance tags. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

well it says in the instructions: "Regardless of how a previous TFA was chosen, the bonus point is only for those who have never had any FA on which they have significantly worked appearing as Today's Featured Article." But how does the nominator know if the editor has never had a FA? I found out because RichWales told me. MathewTownsend (talk) 21:55, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

also, I'm not sure what this means: "Regardless of how a previous TFA was chosen," - what does it mean "a previous TFA"? It's unclear to me. MathewTownsend (talk) 21:58, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

How a previous TFA was chosen refers to whether it went through the TFAR page, or not-- that means, even if a delegate scheduled it independently of a request here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Link to the brief discussion where Raul proposed and adopted the current wording - previously anyone could claim the point on a TFA newbie's behalf, since Sept 2012 only the TFA newbie him/herself can claim it. And so the the answer to the question Mathew posed (But how does the nominator know if the editor has never had a FA?) is this: the nominator doesn't need to know, because the point can't be claimed by random passers-by nominating the article, and that's been the position for the last two years. Bencherlite 14:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Proposal for nominator point clarification

Ok, so the key words from Raul were (emphasis mine):

The purpose of the this-is-my-first-TFA point is that if someone wants to see their work on the main page, and it's their first time, they should get higher priority. I don't see the value in using it to reward people who are inactive and probably won't notice. Raul654 (talk) 19:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The proposed text in instructions was:

Regardless of how a previous TFA was chosen, the bonus point is only for those who have never had any FA on which they have significantly worked appearing as Today's Featured Article. Nominators unconnected with the article do not need to worry about whether someone else could claim the point.

So, we need to clarify the "regardless of how previous chosen" per MT's question, and clear up the point of the point. How about:

The bonus point is only awarded upon request to significant contributors who have never had any FA on which they have significantly worked appearing as Today's Featured Article, regardless whether the previous TFA was chosen via this Requests page or independently by a delegate. This point is only available to significant contributors upon request; other nominators who are not significant contributors to the article do not need to be concerned with this point.

Or something like that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:27, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

And, a sample in case others are still confused (as I was). I am a significant contributor to Samuel Johnson, which has appeared at TFA. I am a significant contributor to Tourette syndrome (TS), which has not appeared TFA. If I request TS here, I don't get the point-- I have already had an article TFA. If someone else requests TS here, they don't have to worry whether I get the point. If I hadn't already had a TFA, I could request the point if I nominate TS or if someone else nominates TS (they better not until I'm ready for coprolalia-related vandalism). Since I have already had a TFA, I can't request the point. Other nominators don't have to concern themselves with whether I get my point. No one has to worry about whether Samuel Johnson was chosen via a request at TFAR or assigned independently by a delegate. Is that about it? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I think we could probably lose one (or both) of the "upon request"s but otherwise it's fine by me. Bencherlite 10:27, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

How's that (struck one)? Since no one else has commented, how about you just add it in whenever you think it's ready? I'm still busy decking the halls ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

"The bonus point only applies when an editor who has not been a significant contributor to any TFA (whether run pursuant to a request, or scheduled directly by a delegate) nominates or co-nominates at this page an article he has significantly contributed to."--Wehwalt (talk) 17:40, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

That differs from the example on the page, where the point was granted to a significant contributor after the fact, even though s/he was not the nominator or co-nominator ... in other words, if the significant contributor shows up post-nomination, they can request the point. Also, pls avoid the pronoun "he" :) :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:02, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Seems to me that a first nominator should get the point even if they have contributed to other articles; being lead on a TFA is like taking point in combat, you have to do more than merely work on the article, you have to draft the TFA itself, deal with the whole approval process and it's not for the faint-hearted. It's a learning curve, and if we want to encourage people to expand their horizons in this area by offering the point at all, seems to me any first time nominator should get the point, regardless. (yes, full disclosure: this applies to me, I've not been lead on a TFA nom, ever, but have contributed to at least three TFAs in the past.) Montanabw 18:31, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

TFAR delegates

Following a couple of suggestions, I've started Misplaced Pages:Today's featured article/Delegates. Bencherlite 14:01, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Bencherlite, you might want to follow the convention we used on the FAC delegate page, which was delegates comment on the main page there, while others comment on talk ... that makes for easier archiving of threaded discussions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:06, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

... which is why the page is headed "A venue for Raul654 and the TFA delegates to coordinate scheduling. Comments/messages from others can be left on the talk page." Bencherlite 14:07, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

ah, ha :) When I looked yesterday, there were comments on the page from non-delegates. Back on the instructions thing after I string some lights. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:16, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

There was one comment from one non-delegate, now moved to talk. Are you decking the halls with bows of holly, fa-la-la etc? Bencherlite 15:03, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

And then some! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:05, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Mrs Bencherlite wants me to put up some lights on the outside of the house this afternoon, and has got Elder Son of Bencherlite to agree that it would be lovely. I'd rather spend the time writing an explanatory userspace essay about the TFAR points system, its purpose and its meaning... Maybe I can write that tomorrow on the train... Bencherlite 15:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Yea for the Mrs (we're all sisters, you know :) Now, stop responding to me ... I've got Work to Do! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

(watching) we could spend so much more time decking the halls if we didn't care about points and instructions until next year. Without using points, I moved two ideas (railroad, battleship) to later as too similar to articles scheduled. Trying to keep things as simple as possible, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:28, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Action of 1 January 1800

• Action of 1 January 1800

I agree with comments by Bencherlite (talk · contribs) and MathewTownsend (talk · contribs) that Action of 1 January 1800 would be a better choice for upcoming 1 January 2013 as opposed to the article currently nominated. Can Action of 1 January 1800 be substituted, instead? — Cirt (talk) 02:30, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

All sorted; Vidya Balan will be TFA on 14th December, her wedding day, instead. Bencherlite 10:53, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! — Cirt (talk) 18:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Major Overhaul ideas

Can you please reformat this and make it easier to read? Thank you. --Rschen7754 00:16, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Ditto, I can't sort anything out of this proposal. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry! I really don't know how... I am trying, but wikimarkup is not my strong suit... Tazerdadog (talk) 00:23, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Is that any better? Tazerdadog (talk) 00:30, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

No. Bencherlite 00:33, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Summary

OK, so your main ideas appear to be:

1. Allowing nominations for any date in the next decade that have not been scheduled

   Well, as we don't schedule out of turn, and as a lot can happen in a decade, there is no point in nominations outside a reasonable time scale, and I would say the current timescale is reasonable.

   Ok, maybe decade is too long. The idea is to have it be noticed that Hey! Garfield's 100th anniversary of his assassination is in 3 years and change. We want him to run then, and not now. (Example, I have no clue if garfield is a FA, or when he was assassinated) Tazerdadog (talk) 00:42, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   No, we are already scheduling out far enough, and scheduling out any farther results in many headaches, as unforeseen events lead to changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

2. Removing the bonus point for old FAs

   That is a long-standing decision to help those articles that have been waiting for a longer time than most for "their day in the sun". If they're not up to scratch, they won't be selected.

   I can see your point here, but I think what should be featured on the main page should be the best available, rather than the oldest. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:42, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   See no reason for this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

3. Add "Date is unusually or extraordinarily relevant: 3 points"

   I don't see the need for this, and even you say that it is "vague wording". You do not give any examples of what might count here that we wouldn't already count as date relevance. And, before you say it, 2012 phenomenon was an exceptional case and didn't need points to be selected.

   Yes. It is vague. I was hoping someone would have a better idea for wording, however it seems more trouble than it is worth. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:42, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   Date relevance is already adequately covered (if anything, we might eventually reduce it). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

4. Change core articles from 6 to 8 points, level 3 vital articles from 4 to 6 point, and keep other vital articles (i.e. level 4 only) 4 points

   Not sure that it would make much difference, really - so few vital articles (either level 3 or 4) are eligible TFAs (less than 30 by my count, and two are nominated at present: Nixon and Hawking)

   Maybe I was biased by the number currently nominated. The idea was to stimulate growth in the critical articles. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:42, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

   All vital or core articles already have enough points and are never denied. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

5. Allow nominations of previous TFAs with a five point penalty

   No, we've just been through this and Raul has decided that these requests don't belong here and must go to his talk page. Just a few days ago, you agreed that the question was now moot.

   No, already discussed many times. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:55, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

So I don't see the need for any of the changes you propose. Bencherlite 00:33, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

And then someone came along and said that the idea was interesting. My "The idea is moot" referred to that specifc article. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:42, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

I've got multiple edit conflicts trying to reply, and Sandy's said some of what I would have done. If an article is nominated or selected "prematurely", in the eyes of its authors, then they can (and do) say so; nominating or scheduling months or years in advance isn't the answer. I'd be more than happy to see the date range of the /pending template increased to allow people to put down possibilities further in advance than at present, but that's a different issue. As for your idea that giving bonus points to older FAs means that we're not running the best articles: TFAR suggests, and delegates select, a mixture of old and new anyway. If we only selected from the most recent articles to pass FAC, we would miss out on a good balance of articles. Bencherlite 01:04, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Instructions "massively changed" ?

Wehwalt mentioned that "the instruction set had been massively changed without significant discussion". I wasn't around most of October, so I may have missed something. Here is a diff of all of the changes to the instructions since October 8 (two months). Could someone explain what the massive changes are? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:06, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

The number of non-specific nomination slots was increased from two to five, and the number of specific date nominations allowed was increased from ten to twelve; but Raul subsequently dropped the non-specific back to two again, resulting in little net change. Hawkeye7 (talk) 14:03, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Some of what you mention was only copyediting for things that had been missed in earlier updates; as far as I can tell, the only change was dropping the non-specific slots from five to two, and accurately adding that back to the instructions to the 12 (which wasn't there before at all). Since even the two slots have not been used in the six weeks or so that I've been watching, there seems to be no net change. At any rate, I'm still not understanding what is "massively" changed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:18, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

For a while there was a lot of community engagement and participation (say around in October). That's when many were nominated for the non-specific slots. Then there was a clamp down regarding an insistence in using the points for nomination and a confusion over what the instructions meant (like what a "similar" article was etc.), plus Raul appointed two new delegates and the instructions were changed (reducing the non-specific slots etc.), so community participation backed down, leaving it to the delegates since that seems to be what Raul wants.

Complaints have been made in the past regarding the difficulty of understanding the instructions/points etc. to no effect. Agree with Tazerdadog that's more trouble than it's worth to try to clarify the instructions. MathewTownsend (talk) 00:23, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, one of the editors active in October has walked off in a huff after failing an RFA, and another has since been (re)banned; that will explain some of it, I'd think. Perhaps the fact that TFAs were scheduled much closer to their appearance date then encouraged people to nominate articles in the hope of a "speedy" reward and / or to help the hardworking-but-pushed-for-time Dabomb. As to your point about "confusion", sometimes there can be legitimate disagreement as to whether two articles are "similar", but this does not mean that the rules are faulty; it is then a matter for discussion so that the reasons in favour and against running a particular article now or another time can be aired. For the record, I would welcome more non-specific date nominations since every article that someone else checks and nominates means less work for the delegates! Bencherlite 12:47, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I would like to make you happy, and I was ready to help, but now I was told that the rules require only one nomination at a time. That makes sense to avoid one editor promoting several of their articles, but I don't think that is a helpful as long articles by different users on different topics are concerned, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:00, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you, as it happens. That particular instruction is one that I think has less relevance now than it did in the days when there were only five date slots (and no non-specific date slots). Bencherlite 14:58, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

... plus Raul appointed two new delegates and the instructions were changed (reducing the non-specific slots etc.), so community participation backed down, leaving it to the delegates since that seems to be what Raul wants. Nowhere did Raul say that or anything like that (nor is it true whether he was misunderstood or not). He reduced the non-specific slots for the same reason I stated: they weren't being used.

As to the rule about one nominator at a time, and the complexity of the rules, please remember that the rules grew so complex because the page was being abused of by nominators wanting it their way, to heck with the rest. If we had nominators putting up non-date-specific requests that were for well prepared articles, without tags and other issues as we've seen lately, with well written blurbs-- in other words, reducing the load on the delegates and showing the community can do the job well-- that would be when we know it's time to revisit that rule. So far, we haven't had that situation.

The instructions are too difficult; they got that way because any relaxing seemed to lead to "I want my popsicle, darn it". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

So far we had that situation, for (random) example, 4 any-date slots filled, not to perfection, but trying to help, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:12, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Is there any situation related to FA/TFA where you are capable of anything but assuming bad faith in the actions and intentions of the plebians, Sandy? Resolute 16:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? There's no bad faith in there, and if there were, the answer would be yes, the dedicated participants and reviewers at FAC and TFA are what make the process work. Without them, we wouldn't have FAs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) The limit was raised to five non-specific dates on 31st August and in September, 24 articles were nominated using that route. At times there were four or even five articles nominated, as Gerda notes. Of the 24, only a few didn't run (and one that didn't run at the time ran in December instead) and the reasons for non-selection tended to be withdrawal of the nomination after a suggestion of better future dates rather than opposes based on article similarity or article (dis)quality. The blurbs, on the whole, ran as put forward, sometimes after copyediting on the page (by me and no doubt by others too) to get them more into house style for Dabomb's use. Gerda's blurbs, in particular, improved as time went on, if she doesn't mind me saying so. It is perhaps unfortunate that Raul reduced the number of slots during a lull in nominations, because they had been quite busy before then. Perhaps the way to get them increased, as Sandy says, is to use them. I have this data to hand because I was gradually building a log of TFA nominations since the limits were raised to 10 and 5, to see what lessons could be drawn, but I'd got as far as the end of September when Raul decreased the limit to 2 non-specific dates, which is why I don't have October's data. Bencherlite 16:59, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for filling in the facts and the additional clarifications, Bencherlite. What led me to respond to the post was (again) seeing (mis)information (even if likely unintended) about Raul on this page. It's interesting that attempts to keep the facts straight frequently lead to charges of bad faith, when there was plenty of that going around before Raul appointed new delegates and TFA issues ended up at ANI. We don't have any reason to think that if the page is being used responsibly, the number of slots for the community to schedule might not grow again in the future. What was and remains "off" about the issues that went on during the summer and fall is the inconsistency and the double standard: some folks wanted to hold Raul and the delegates responsible for problematic articles appearing TFA, while at the same time we see Supports from the community for articles with clear deficiencies, including articles nominated here by non-significant contributors that needed a lot of work to be mainpage ready. That's inconsistent; can't have it both ways (blame the delegates for problems while the community picks articles with same or worse issues). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

yes, Raul's reduction was most unfortunate. Gerda brought a lot of joy and verve to the nomination process. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, but it seemed that the involvement of relatively new people wasn't welcomed and we backed off ("the page was being abused" attitude). Discussions about what were "similar" articles weren't clarified; decisions were made, based on one person's input (who seemed to drop in from no where and wrote lengthy posts more concerned about her personal problems and concerns). The ultimate decision was made behind the scenes.

For a while I looked for eligible nominations, edited blurbs, checking their length etc. - that's the kind of work I like to do - but once I got the feeling that only my behind-the-scenes work was tolerated and my opinions were not, I stopped doing it. I know I had the feeling (perhaps wrongly) that Raul didn't welcome our participation.

Rules like the one nomination at a time were invoked and the wonderful number of "nonspecfic slots" were reduced. True, Raul said nothing, offered no explanations, but he indicated that the appointing of new delegates would take care of the problems. He gave no indication that he welcomed the community's participation but rather I got the opposite feeling - that he was trying to quash it. Bencherlite is wonderful to work with, a real joy, but I felt like the boom had been lowered suddenly with the rule changes, slot reduction, and "one nomination at a time" enforcement. There was no indication, except from Bencherlite, that we were anything but pests to the TFA process. MathewTownsend (talk) 18:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Problem with footnotes in The Notorious B.I.G.

Please see Talk:The_Notorious_B.I.G.#Problem_with_two_different_date_formats_used_in_footnotes. There are two different formats for dates used in the footnotes. Its confusing to the reader and can't be right, IMO. Please can someone fix? Thanks, MathewTownsend (talk) 00:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)