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Revision as of 02:30, 31 December 2012

30 December 2012

Battle of the Line

Battle of the Line (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I feel this close on "keep" is incorrect. All of the "keep" arguments amont to merely claiming sources are sufficient instead of explaining why they'd be so (as it is stated in WP:AFDFORMAT: "explain how the article meets/violates policy rather than merely stating that it meets/violates the policy). Which is extremely weak considering it has been pointed out in the discussion that most sources are either primary or fundamentally trivial (ie one-sentence mentions only), thus failing our notability guideline, and the "keep" supporters chose to avoid adressing that issue (making them voters rathers than participants in a debate).
The closing admin, on his talk page, admitted to have given more weight to "the number of people who found the sources to be sufficient" than to the actual argument based on the primary and trivial nature of the sources (and the lack of answer from keep supporters). Which directly contradicts WP:NOTVOTE and WP:CLOSEAFD.
In my opinion, the closing admin should have acknowledged the strength of the "delete" arguments and the weakness of the "keep" side, one way or another, and failed to do so. Folken de Fanel (talk) 19:52, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Closing admin While AFD is not a vote count, the magnitude of support for a reasonable interpretation of policy can include the number of people holding that interpretation. If several established editors found the sourcing to be sufficient and there is not a clearly wrong application of policy in their reasoning, that would and was grounds to retain the article. MBisanz 20:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Oh, but that primary and trivial sources would be sufficient to make an article notable is a clearly wrong interpretation, since it's the very opposite of what WP:GNG states. I'm not saying that numbers shouldn't be taken into account, but that they are only one of the things to consider, the other being the pure strength of arguments (which has nothing to do with numbers) regarding the consensus stated in our policies and guidelines. If the keep side is obviously going against the notability criteria that have been decided by consensus, then it should also have been taken into account, one way or another.Folken de Fanel (talk) 22:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: neither the article nor the deletion review discussion were tagged as recommended in steps 5 and 6 of the deletion review process; I have added the DELREV templates in both cases.Vulcan's Forge (talk) 22:03, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse The close is a supported consensus read, within discretion. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:21, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse 7 people said to KEEP it, giving good rational why. An editor who was blocked for using sockpuppets in AFDs for fictional things, nominates this for deletion along with a horde of other things. Another editor says "Delete - WP:FANCRUFT" without saying anything more. So that's two editors who basically said "I don't like it". The third and final editor that wants this deleted is Folken de Fanel, who argues with everyone in the AFD, then brings it to deletion review when they don't get their way. Consensus was clear, Keep was the right close. Dream Focus 22:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
  • This sounds more like a personal rant as to why Dream Focus doesn't like me than a proper DRV comment. Please keep personal matters where they belong.Folken de Fanel (talk) 22:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse and sanction nominator. Folken de Fanel has demonstrated a repeated inability to accept that his definitions of what level of sourcing is necessary to support the notability of fictional elements do not enjoy community support. This is not the first time he's brought such a frivolous complaint here. Thus, it would be reasonable to forbid Folken de Fanel from bringing additional DRVs on fictional element AfD closures he dislikes. The sourcing present before the item was nominated demonstrates that the fictional element is adequately covered in independent RS'es, and there was no actual justification for re-nominating it in the first place. Jclemens (talk) 23:03, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
  • My rationale is sufficiently developed for anyone to see it is not "frivolous", and DRV is accessible to anyone considering an AfD close was incorrect, so I don't see why I should be "sanctionned" for starting a DRV that doesn't follow Jclemens's opinion. My definition of the level of sourcing required enjoyed community support many times against Jclemens's. Had we sanctionned Jclemens each time he said "keep" on an AfD that ended on "delete" or "merge", I don't think he'd have had much occasions to contribute, fortunately for him Misplaced Pages doesn't discriminate users according to their opinions. DRV is not the appropriate venue to sanction people or to make false accusation of bad behavior. The item nominated is not adequately covered in independent RSes and that's why it was nominated.Folken de Fanel (talk) 00:06, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
    • You still aren't understanding that the issue isn't you having different opinions than policy, it's that you refuse to accept when other editors make a decision that doesn't align with yours, that it's consensus. Please show me a single fictional element DRV that you have raised which has even equivocal support. As far as I am aware, you have never made any such DRV request which has achieved anything other than unanimous or near-unanimous endorsement of the original outcome. That is why I suggest you be prevented from wasting DRV's time and effort in the future. It probably won't happen this time, but unless you learn to graciously accept being overruled on your interpretations, it will probably come up sooner or later. Jclemens (talk) 02:30, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

UFC 158

UFC 158 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I feel the close of this AfD as keep is wrong as the failed to correctly weigh policy based arguments vs those that did not articulate their Keep !votes.

Specifically :

• Willdawg111's argument is not based on policy or guideline;
• 192.249.47.202 argument is not based on policy or guideline;
• 176.254.114.25 argument is not based on policy or guideline;
• JonnyBonesJones makes a claim to lasting significance, but offers no evidence for his assertion;
• Killswitch Engage also makes a claim to lasting significance, but offers no evidence for his assertion;
• Mkdw addresses WP:FUTURE but does not address the lack of routine sourcing;
• The only !vote for keep that provided any sourcing was AutomaticStrikeout, here, however they are exactly the type of routine news reports that WP:NOT says are not sufficient for a stand alone article :

  msn.foxsports.com News report following the press announcement of the event

  sports.yahoo.com News report more focused on prior meets between two that never were.

  www.sbnation.com Two lines saying when and where the event will happen

  espn.go.com another news report following the press announcement of the event.

The article it's self has nothing on the significance of the event a point picked up on by TreyGeek and his comment.

Addressing the claims that a UFC title fight somehow makes the event have lasting significance, this is the very definition of what is routine for a UFC event, every one has one, it is how they sell tickets, by last count they had about 15 in 2012.

I therefore believe a result of consensus keep is wrong and not based on policy. ✍ Mtking ✉ 00:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment The guidelines for future events that will probably be notable when they happen are so subject to interpretation that any results can be justified by our guidelines, as is true with most guidelines that depend on interpreting "lasting significance" or "substantial coverage" (my preference for dealing with this would be fixed but arbitrary compromises for each type of articles) The results won't be any the worse than at present and it will save time and trouble. DGG ( talk ) 01:07, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Misplaced Pages contributors. Misplaced Pages has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

• Please note that this DRV has been inappropriately canvassed. In the event that *I* close this DRV (and I have closed most DRVs recently) I will explicitly discard any vote that fails to address policy directly or is in any way prejudicial to any other user. Keep it clean guys and girls if you want your vote to be counted. Thank you. Spartaz 16:21, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comment  Lankiveil has made 23 contributions since MtKing posted User_talk:Lankiveil#Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/UFC_158.  If the closer is either unwilling or unable to explain the closing, then the AfD should be reclosed, and there is no need for further comment here.  Regards, Unscintillating (talk) 16:55, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comment Mtking states that every UFC event has a title match (not true, not even close). He is aggressively trying to affect MMA notability policy without demonstrating any knowledge of the sport. --SubSeven (talk) 17:09, 30 December 2012 (UTC) - note votes that amount to ad homs and/or personal attacks will not be counted when this review is closed. Please consider removing your comment and trying for a policy based argument that might carry some weight... Spartaz 17:18, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comment If pages are getting put into an omnibus right now, why is this article of all of them being kept? It's 2 1/2 months out and reasonably likely to be effected by injuries. Why are the standards for this stuff so haphazard and why are they implemented so inconsistently? Byuusetsu (talk) 17:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• Comment Closing admins are expected to at least respond to inquiries about closes even if there is an eventual stalemate or impasse with the person questioning the close. If that has not occurred here, the AFD should be open to reclosure without prejudice to the existing close. MBisanz 20:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

The closing admin did make two responses to my questions (see User Talk:Mtking#UFC 158) the first one claiming no editor other than myself had an issue with sourcing, I then replied on his talk page and he replied again on mine and after receiving no further replies after I posted for a third time on his talk felt I should come here. ✍ Mtking ✉ 21:26, 30 December 2012 (UTC):

Thanks. In that case, I have no particular opinion on the DRV. MBisanz 21:29, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse. The AfD was well participated, and couldn't have been closed any other way. Mtking's nomination here is an attempt to restart the deletion discussion. However, as the article is not actually offensive in any way, and as a clear AfD result should be given some respect, I don't think there is nearly a good reason to relist. See Misplaced Pages:Renominating for deletion for advice on renominating after an appropriate delay. The discussion should be much simpler in June 2013.

  Alternatively, Mtking might be well-advised to seek a non-deletion solution. There never were good reasons to delete over merge&redirect anyway, and so it never belonged at AfD. Start a talk page about a merge and redirect to 2013 in UFC. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:15, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse as closer. Before I start, I want to point out how disappointed I am with the bad faith shown by User:Unscintillating in implying that I was unwilling or unable to explain the close. A more accurate explanation is that I was simply thinking the matter over to provide a considered response to this nomination, rather than providing a knee-jerk reaction. I'm not aware that there is any rule with DRV concerning a time limit that the closer must respond by (if I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected). As has been pointed out, I also responded within minutes to initial questions regarding the close raised by the person who opened this DRV.
  
  On the substantive matter of the discussion, the grounds that the discussion were brought on was that the sources provided did not indicate any lasting significance that the event would hold, citing WP:NOT. Such an argument is one that is subjective in nature, there is no objective way that one can measure whether an event will have a future impact. Therefore, we are forced to look at whether a consensus exists regarding the matter. In the discussion, a clear minority of editors agreed with the nominator that the event would not have any lasting impact. Despite good participation in the discussion, there was not a lot of people lining up and agreeing with the nominator. Under the circumstances, any "delete" close would have been incorrect as there was clearly no consensus that there were grounds to delete the article. Obviously this AFD does not preclude further discussion and consensus being formed on merging or redirecting the article at a later date.
  
  Finally, I acknowledge that UFC has some rather dedicated fans. I am not one of them, I am not a fan of UFC, or any combat sports at all really (cricket is more my game). Any personal feelings I had about the subject did not interfere with my judgement on the close. Lankiveil 01:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC).
• Endorse First, the claim that "every event has a title fight" is blatantly false. Many events are sold on main events with number one contender fights or grudge fights. So we can throw that false claim out. Now, the main selling point of this event has been the bad blood between the two main event fighters (Georges St. Pierre and Nick Diaz). GSP requested Diaz over Hendricks <--- This source shows Dana White confirming that the champion requested Diaz over a prior confirmed number one contender, which is extremely unusual in the UFC and can be used to indicate the unusual nature of this event. Diaz will also be entering this fight on a one fight losing streak, and coming off a suspension, which is extremely rare as well as fighters usually need to win several fights in a row or actually fight after a suspension before a title shot is granted. Johnny Hendricks angry at GSP <--- This source also shows another developing storyline on this card. Johnny Hendricks had originally won a number one contender fight against Martin Kampmann. He goes off in this source, and will be featured on this card as well, creating an unusual dynamic. As well so far, this card features exclusively one division on the main card, although this may change. Single division cards are extremely rare. The fact this PPV is being sold on a combination of grudge and championship, along with two contender fights in the same division indicates lasting significance in the company, as the outcome of this card will set the stage for the future of the division. I feel these storylines warrant the inclusion of this page on wikipedia. Killswitch Engage (talk) 02:13, 31 December 2012 (UTC)