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Archives by topic: Common names 1, 2, 3 Naming conflict 1, 2 Precision and accuracy

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Proposed COMMONNAME subsection

I propose adding a new subsection to COMMONNAME. Certain policies and guidelines are perceived to conflict with COMMONNAME, and an explanation of these cases can help to avoid time-wasting RMs. I've drawn up a draft at User:BDD/COMMONNAME exceptions, which I invite you to visit and potentially edit. In particular, I only know of two such policies or guidelines, so additions are welcome. You may also indicate your support for, or opposition to, this initiative, either in this section or on the draft's talk page. --BDD (talk) 23:13, 28 November 2012 (UTC) Edit: I've had this page deleted, but its content is reproduced in the collapsible box farther down in this section. --BDD (talk) 20:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think the examples you give ("Boise, Idaho vs Boise" and "Myocardial infarction vs Heart attack") are exceptions to WP:COMMONNAME... with both the city and the medical event, there are lots of sources that would support either potential title... enough that neither potential title is significantly more common than the other. We turn to the project convention because we don't have a clear COMMONNAME. Blueboar (talk) 01:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, the question I'm asking is not whether they are the common name—just whether they could be perceived as such. Since Boise redirects to Boise, Idaho, it's reasonable to assume it could be moved to just Boise; since heart attack is a much more commonly used phrase, it reasonable to assume it should be the article title (cf. Talk:Myocardial infarction#Article move, from earlier this month). My intention is to head off RMs like that. But if you have better examples, by all means, add them. --BDD (talk) 16:01, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose. All criteria are considered and weighed in title determinations. Consistency with other similar titles (a.k.a. following project-specific naming conventions) is just one of those criteria, and does not automatically trump others like recognizability, naturalness (i.e., common name) and conciseness. The two examples are terrible, because Boise, Idaho is an abomination (IMHO) and Myocardial infarction is about precision. If you want to head off RMs, support the following guidance.

  With very few if any exceptions, all cases of ] redirects to ] or ] redirects to ] should be non-controversial grounds for moving:

] → ]

] → ]

--Born2cycle (talk) 16:53, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

My question is: why would we want to try to "head off" RMs? I see nothing wrong with suggesting that an article would be better if given a different title. This policy helps us to achieve consensus as to the best title amunst a choice of various potential titles, not to mandate what a given title "must" be. Blueboar (talk) 17:40, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Actual improvements is one thing. But I'm talking about heading off RMs in cases where either title is ultimately fine (neither is "better"). Some people advocate for simply not participating in such discussions, or always supporting the status quo. I favor supporting policy and guidelines that reduces the incidence of such cases, by making the rules less ambiguous. Fewer exceptions. Hence my above suggestion. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, from my perspective, there is only one firm rule here... 2) Titles are determined by consensus. All the rest is guidance to help us achieve consensus. Blueboar (talk) 20:40, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Sure, but even within that framework we can come up with guidance supported by consensus that increases or reduces ambiguity and the incidence of controversial cases. I mean, pure consensus with no guidance would be indistinguishable from a panoply of JLI/JDLI arguments. So the whole point of having guidance is to reduce controversy and pointless JLI/JDLI argumentation. This goal can be met to varying degrees depending on what policies and guidelines we choose and how ambiguous we make them. The less ambiguous and less conflicting we make the rules, the less controversy there will be. That's why I advocate for project-specific rules that minimize (ideally eliminate) conflict with our general criteria. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:40, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Any particular algorithm, such as the one above that's claimed as "should be non-controversial grounds for moving", is going to make lots of bad calls, compared to the considered judgement of editors who can trade off the various criteria that are there to be considered. The theory that "the whole point of having guidance is to reduce controversy" seems to me to be highly suspect, and B2C's efforts guided by this theory seem to stoke more controversy than they settle. Hard and fast rules that force editors into choosing the most concise and ambiguous title are what he has been pushing for 5 years now; how about we try backing off from that, and let titles be chosen by editors instead of by algorithms? Dicklyon (talk) 06:33, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Algorithms make title determinations deterministically. In contrast, when these decisions are left to "the considered judgement of editors", often if not usually apparently reasonable arguments (mostly rationalizations of JDLI positions) can be made for both sides, and true consensus is never reached. Coin tossing, using an unfair coin weighted to favor the status quo, would produce results similar to what we see from "the considered judgement of editors". --Born2cycle (talk) 21:42, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

• Comment – I think the problem is that WP:COMMONNAME is often cited, instead of the WP:CRITERIA that it's supposed to support. It is not well written, as it seems to take control, with over-narrow wording like "it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used...", when it should be talking about recognizability and precision. If we rephrase it a bit, then City, State and Myocardial infarction will not be exceptions, just cases where the chosen name may not necessarily be the most common. It starts out OK with "The most common name for a subject, as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources, is often used as a title because it is recognizable and natural" – but it might be more clear to say something like "The title of an article is typically chosen from the most common names..." with the same reason. Dicklyon (talk) 06:27, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
  • That's just advocating more rules loosening and less determinism, which creates more fodder for pointless disagreements. With few exceptions, when the most common name for a topic is available, it is the title for that article's topic. That's a fact that can be verified with any significant number of clicks on SPECIAL:RANDOM, and it needs to remain clearly stated in policy. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:46, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Born, a lot of editors feel that less determinism and more acceptance of disagreement is a good thing. It's why WP:RM exists... so editors can discuss the (often subtle) nuances that exist between different titles and reach a consensus. Blueboar (talk) 15:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Exactly; many of us have supported looser rules and less determinism, so that edtors can actually weigh the various criteria. Much of the conflict that we see in naming is driven by the extremists, who believe that "excess precision" means anything beyond the most concise possible title, or that recognizability has no real value except to people already familiar with the topic, etc. Dicklyon (talk) 06:01, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I understand that some editors want looser rules, less determinism and (thus) less agreement and more arguing. But why? To what end? We're not talking about cases where one title is clearly better than another (there is little to argue about in those cases). We're talking only about cases where, frankly, either title is fine, in terms of serving our readers. What is the point in make such cases more controversial rather than less controversial? What good comes from that? To anyone? Besides those of us love debate for the sake of debate (I'm not going to deny that obvious inclination in myself, but I recognize that's no excuse for loosening the rules, less determinism and more ultimately pointless disagreement and debating). For me, it's not pointless, because the point is to reduce the incidence of that kind of nonsense. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Your inference that looser rules and less determinism would lead to more arguing seems highly suspect, especially since so much of the arguing is driven by you trying to tighten up the rules and implement algorithmic naming. We aren't going to go for that, you've probably noticed by now. Dicklyon (talk) 21:41, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I measure my achievements in the area of titles in terms of titles that were controversial in the past, and are now stable. Getting there sometimes means one RM discussion. In other cases it takes years. But in the end it's about title predictability, consistency and stability. It is for me. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Maybe we should have 'WP:NOT#BOOLEAN' as a part of WP:NOT.

"I understand that some editors want looser rules, less determinism and (thus) less agreement and more arguing. But why? To what end? We're not talking about cases where one title is clearly better than another (there is little to argue about in those cases)". Firstly, the above statement itself is a fallacy because it causally links the lower determinism with less agreement or more argumentation; it also implies that the level of determinism at present is free from arguments. Secondly, the "end" is to put an end to the delusion that there is only one of when they are in fact abundant number of them although an article has yet to be created for the others. The acceptance and adoption of the naming convention for US cities (ie ) is a reflection of the real world where there are several Plains or Redwoods, for example. That principle should be enlarged so that the user won't have to even have to hover over a link, let alone to click one, to know that the subject is or isn't what they were looking for. -- Ohconfucius  02:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Whether we like it or not, the underlying common theme of WP:COMMONNAME, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:DISAMBIGUATION and concision and recognizability is that distinguishing a given article's topic from other uses not covered in WP, and making a topic recognizable to readers unfamiliar with that topic from the title itself, are not purposes of WP article titles. Adding these purposes to WP article titles would indicate we should be using a different title for probably the majority of our titles. This can be quickly verified by making a few clicks on SPECIAL:RANDOM which will immediately reveal any number of titles for which the topic is not recognizable to anyone not familiar with the topic (e.g., Beerzerveld, Live at Short's 2005, John H. Long, Osbald of Northumbria, Lex Manilia), or by recognizing that the existence of any dab page at name (disambiguation), like Redwood (disambiguation), indicates the existence of an article (or redirect to an article) at name (like Redwood) which is ambiguous with the other uses of name listed on the dab page, not to mention those that may not be covered on WP.

Repurposing titles like this leads to conflicts because now we have conflicting purposes for titles, and, thus, ostensibly reasonable arguments based on recognized purposes for different titles for the same article. Continuing to go down that path will necessarily lead to more conflict, disagreement and debate. To what end?

The examples of Plains or Redwoods are irrelevant because both are dab pages listing multiple uses on WP of those names on WP respectively. There is little debate about titles of articles like that. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:53, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

This is probably going nowhere. I'll leave my draft below for anyone who wants to run with it. --BDD (talk) 20:21, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

• That said, add WP:NCROY to the list of policies and guidelines that can conflict with COMMONNAME. --BDD (talk) 00:02, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
  • That was true in the past and the inconsistency has been largely rectified over the years. For those monarchs that "have a name by which they are clearly most commonly known ... and which identifies them unambiguously... this name is usually chosen as the article title". --Born2cycle (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
• Not necessary. Our two choices are always common use and official name, and it can certainly be argued that Boise, Idaho, is a form of official name, as is Myocardial infarction. Along with official, we include scientific name, as well as technical name. Apteva (talk) 10:12, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Two comments here... 1) I have a problem with saying that there is always a choice between the official name and the common usage... in many, if not most cases, the most common usage actually IS the official name (ie the official name is what the most number of sources use).

2) Something that we do not address in this Policy (yet) is the issue of source quality... and how quality interacts with commonness (or quantity). This is where the "Myocardial Infarction" vs. "Heart Attack" debate is instructive. Determining which of these two terms is the WP:COMMONNAME actually depends on the selection of sources. "Myocardial Infarction" is actually the more commonly used term of the two, if you limit the selection to scholarly medical sources. "Heart Attack" on the other hand is more commonly used if you include non-scholarly sources.

Now... there is (I think) a valid argument for saying that in a medicine related article, scholarly sources should be given much more weight than non-scholarly sources. Scholarly sources are considered relatively more reliable... and this should have an effect on determining commonality. In other words... WP:COMMONNAME needs to account for quality as well as quantity. Blueboar (talk) 14:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

But "scholarly" is mixing up the notions of quality and specialization. I wouldn't generally put specialized sources ahead of high-quality sources written for a general audience. I understand it came out as you say with Heart attack being a redirect to the more technical medical term, but that seems like an outlier from normal WP title style, doesn't it? Dicklyon (talk) 17:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Dick. I had assumed that Heart attack was a dab page listing all kinds of specific diseases referred to generally/commonly as a "heart attack". But with Heart attack redirecting to the article, that's definitely an outlier. Seem like a blatant violation of common name to me. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:06, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Having the article named "Myocardial infarction" rather than "Heart attack" is a pretty clear violation of normal naming convention. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I didn't mean to start a fight, and I don't agree that it's "blatant", but I think it's a good example of where the specialist camps have won out in getting a consensus that looks a bit odd compared to the usual consensus in other parts of WP. Not as odd as the capitalization in birds, dog breeds, Halley's Comet, and such, which derive from specialist-group recommendations and are at odd with the general advice of the MOS. I'm sure there are other examples of specialists' influence in choosing a COMMONNAME as well. Dicklyon (talk) 22:30, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah... I did not intend to start a fight either... my point was simply that in assessing commonness (a function of quantity), we should look at quality as well. If we have a choice between two names or terms... one commonly used by high-quality sources, and the other commonly used by low-quality sources, I think we should generally follow the high-quality sources... even if there are more low-quality sources when you actually count them up. This would still apply the concept of WP:COMMONNAME... but also takes the quality of each group of sources into account. Blueboar (talk) 00:21, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Good. I have no problem putting higher weight on higher-quality sources. Of course, when it comes down to arguments, people are going to see quality where they see it. So, more generally, I'd say we need to keep COMMONNAME in perspective, as just one strategy in support of one title criterion: recognizability. Too often editors act as if the title will automatically be chosen by what's most common (in the sources that they prefer). Dicklyon (talk) 00:29, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Section'Titles containing "and"'

It says

For example, use Islamic terrorism, not "Islam and terrorism"

Is a slightly incorrect advice, because the second title is ambiguous. I was going to suggest the text:

For example, use Islamic terrorism or Islamic views on terrorism, not "Islam and terrorism"

however checking the redlink I immediately run into the page Islam and violence... And I cannot think of a better title.

Any thoughts about the two my points ? (I mean both policy text and the "IaV" article title). Staszek Lem (talk) 01:57, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Yeah... the article Islam and violence should probably be broken into two articles... the first half seems to deal with Islamic views on violence, while the second half deals with Violence in Islamic countries. Blueboar (talk) 03:18, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Korean naming convention guideline

There is a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Korean)#Common_name regarding possible differences between WP:COMMONNAME and Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions_(Korean). You are invited to participate.—Bagumba (talk) 21:06, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Common names

There are a number of problems with this section.

1. There are seven times as many examples (21) of this simple principle than are needed.
2. Comet Hale-Bopp was deliberately added solely as an attempt to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point.
3. Comet Hale-Bopp is not even commonly spelled using an endash - it is both correctly and per common use spelled with a hyphen, so what is it doing in the common names section?
4. Hale-Bopp is both the official name and the common name. Just like people, many comets have the same name, so there is a designation, sort of like an ID#, but it is not a part of the name.
5. Hale-Bopp is not a good example to use because it is currently incorrectly spelled. If it is used, it should be spelled correctly, with a hyphen, but with over 15 examples already the point is made five times over, even without including it as an example.

I would recommend including the following, please edit this list to choose a consensus list of which ones to include.--Apteva (talk) 20:40, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

It would have been more straightforward to simply clarify COMMONNAME so it says that it does or doesn't apply to dashes (or punctuation, or you might prefer the more nebulous word "style"). Or has that been tried, and abandoned for lack of a consensus? Art LaPella (talk) 22:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

That is covered in WP:Title punctuation. But the number of examples here was getting ridiculous. Bear in mind that there are two types of names that can be used, official or common name. Apteva (talk) 01:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Apteva, I understand your frustration that Hale–Bopp was added to the examples. Yes, everyone knows you don't like it. But please assume good faith, rather than attributing the worst motives. In fact it is an excellent example to include, because that is the form used in the WP article Comet Hale–Bopp, and it is included also at WP:MOS (after thorough testing of consensus in the Great Dash Consultation of 2011, with which you are familiar). Its occurrence both here and at MOS helps editors understand the mechanisms in play at each of these major resource pages. There is no disharmony between title policy here and style guidelines at MOS. A small minority wants to find and even promote conflict; but most editors are fed up with that. Please back off. Consensus at RFC/Apteva over such disruption is clear. ☺ Noetica 02:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with frustration with Hale-Bopp. It is absolute stupidity to use Comet Hale–Bopp with a dash when that is a) not its name and b) not the name it is commonly known as, in a section called "Common names". It was clearly put there simply to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. But seriously, using a comet as an example? There are only a few dozens of comet articles. But Halley's is no better - Halley's is its full name. Apteva (talk) 06:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I changed Hale~Bopp to Halley's to avoid hyphen/dash drama. The list has begun to get bloated of late, however. Perhaps a paring is warranted? Dohn joe (talk) 02:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no drama really, Dohn joe: except for those who need it to promote a partisan view that was set aside as against consensus, in 2011. I have argued in support of the harmonious use of examples at WP:MOS and here. If you want to promote disharmony, that is your choice. But the time for tolerating the view that clashes are normal is over. If the list of examples needs trimming, go ahead and trim it. But leave the most instructive examples in place, so that editors can see how the policies and guidelines work together to promote excellence and certainty in the development of Misplaced Pages.

I have restored that instructive example. Noetica 03:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

This is the typical edit warring that goes on at the MOS. There is absolutely no consensus to replace Halley's with Hale-Bopp. "Undid revision by User:Dohn joe; the inclusion of Comet Hale–Bopp has supported with argument on the talkpage, as reflecting a well-tested consensual form instructively included at WP:MOS also, and as at the WP article itself; discuss!" This is absolute nonsense. Apteva (talk) 05:56, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Noetica, I'm glad you saw the point of it, which was to help dispel Apteva's unsupported idea that MOS and TITLE are in conflict, by using an example where COMMONNAME is not the same as common style. The Comet Hale–Bopp example is particularly apt, since an editor elicited a statement from the IAU (the naming authority for comets) that the name itself (with hyphen or otherwise) is not offically preferred, but that the official designation should be used. So, since WP prefers common names, this is a good contrast. Since WP also has a manual of style, this is a good chance to show that the MOS styling is not in conflict with using the common name. There may be other good examples we could use here, but this one was current, and Apteva's oddball take on it was firmly rejected by an overwhelming consensus at the RFC/U. Nobody else objected, so it seems like a good item to keep, even if we do reduce the list. Dicklyon (talk) 06:01, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

There's that word point. This was solely put there to attempt to disrupt Misplaced Pages to make a point. "I'm glad you saw the point of it". Apteva (talk) 06:08, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Apteva, the word "point" is not by itself of interest. The mere fact that Dicklyon happened to use it does not show WP:POINTiness. The inclusion was not with you in mind personally; but it has the great benefit of illustrating how things work consensually on Misplaced Pages, as opposed to a view you hold that has been set aside as non-consensual.

It so happens that yes, you sought to have the article Comet Hale–Bopp moved; and consensus was against that move. It so happened that yes, you have tried at many forums, many times, to bend policy and guidelines your way; but consensus is revealed as contrary to that way.

Good guidelines and good policy do not shy away from ruling on cases that have been controversial but are now settled. Such settled precedents and decisions are exactly what editors look for in policy and guidelines.

Move on?

Noetica 06:40, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• No consensus to add 'Comet Hale-Bopp': Considering the recent, intense discussions to force dashes into titles where the wp:COMMONNAME has used hyphens for over 120 years (as: Michelson-Morley experiment), then the addition of endashed title "Comet Hale–Bopp" (where both the dash and the word "Comet" have been questioned) was certain to generate controversy, and could be judged as easily disruptive to editing the policy wp:TITLE. Might as well list "Pro–abortion (not pro-choice)" as an example and expect no controversy. I have removed example "Comet Hale~Bopp" until clear consensus to re-add. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
• Use italics only for italicized species or such: Another major issue is the rampant use of italics, where instead, many editors have spent years to clearly italicize films, genus or species names. I suggest to use prefix "not:" (with colon) and italicize the Guinea pig's species name, "Cavia porcellus" (as the official alternative):

• Bill Clinton (not: William Jefferson Clinton)
• Caffeine (not: 1,3,7-Trimethyl-1H-purine-2,6(3H,7H)-dione)
• Guinea pig (not: Cavia porcellus)

Also, perhaps add an example of an italicized species name, and a film name, as the common names. -Wikid77 (talk) 13:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with your suggestion on formatting. It's much clearer and less ambiguous. I also think a film title would serve as an easily recognizable example of what to do and what not to do. How about an "English vs. foreign" example, like "Seven Samurai (not: Shichinin no Samurai)", and/or a "short vs. long" example, like "Dr. Strangelove (not: Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb) szyslak (t) 14:38, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Halley

Since this is about common names, rather than hyphen usage, I have replaced HB with Halley. The next person to change it gets an Misplaced Pages:Arbitration enforcement block. *points to yellow light up top* --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Not from you, though. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not involved. I don't care which way the hyphen goes, I care about people edit warring over it. Therefore, I've removed the reason to edit war, which I have the authority under WP:Discretionary sanctions to do.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I care about people edit warring over it—So why did you participate in the edit war? Should I block you, or did your edit warring come in just in time? I think you're involved now that you took a side. The debate was: is Hale—Bopp an instructive example or is a needless distraction b/c it has controversial punctuation? You took a side. You seem involved to me. I don't have a problem with the WP:AC/DS warning, but you shouldn't be the one to do it. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:52, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I stopped an edit war by removing a needlessly-controversial example. That's NOT involved. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The entire edit war was over the question about whether to include it. How can taking a side on that not make you involved? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:11, 3 January 2013 (UTC)