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Administrative discussions

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive367#Close challenge for Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War#RFC for Jewish exodus

(Initiated 13 days ago on 13 December 2024) challenge of close at AN was archived nableezy - 05:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading

Requests for comment

Wikipedia_talk:Find_your_source#RfC:_Bypass_Paywalls_Clean

(Initiated 100 days ago on 17 September 2024) everybody has forgotten about that discussion, but it needs closure. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 13:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/In the news criteria amendments

(Initiated 79 days ago on 7 October 2024) Tough one, died down, will expire tomorrow. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Talk_page_guidelines#Request_for_comment:_Do_the_guidelines_in_WP:TPO_also_apply_to_archived_talk_pages?

(Initiated 70 days ago on 16 October 2024) Discussion seems to have petered out a month ago. Consensus seems unclear. Gnomingstuff (talk) 02:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Needs admin closure imho, due to its importance (guideline page), length (101kb), and questions about neutrality of the Rfc question and what it meant. Mathglot (talk) 21:28, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

And in true Streisand effect fashion, this discussion, quiescent for six weeks, has some more responses again. Mathglot (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

{{doing}} voorts (talk/contributions) 23:35, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Oops; I put this in the wrong section. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:30, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 459#RFC_Jerusalem_Post

(Initiated 59 days ago on 28 October 2024) Participation/discussion has mostly stopped & is unlikely to pick back up again. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

 Note: This is a contentious topic and subject to general sanctions. - Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 21:15, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed.  22:26, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Grey_Literature

(Initiated 46 days ago on 10 November 2024) Discussion is slowing significantly. Likely no consensus, personally. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Option 2 was very clearly rejected. The closer should try to see what specific principles people in the discussion agreed upon if going with a no consensus close, because there should be a follow-up RfC after some of the details are hammered out. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 03:10, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... —Compassionate727  13:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Compassionate727: Still working on this? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:18, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Ugh… in practice, no. I'm still willing to do it, but it's in hiatus because of the three(!) pending challenges of my closures at AN, while I evaluate to what extent I need to change how I approach closures. If somebody else wants to take over this, they should feel free. —Compassionate727  22:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Taking a pause is fair. Just wanted to double check. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 00:52, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

asking for an update if possible. I think this RFC and previous RFCBEFORE convos were several TOMATS long at this point, so I get that this might take time. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#RFC_on_signing_RFCs

(Initiated 43 days ago on 13 November 2024) - probably gonna stay status quo, but would like a closure to point to Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• Done Soni (talk) 21:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Check Your Fact

(Initiated 43 days ago on 13 November 2024) RfC has elapsed, and uninvolved closure is requested. — Red-tailed sock _{(Red-tailed hawk's nest)} 15:49, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation#RfC: Should a bot be created to handle AfC submissions that haven't changed since the last time they were submitted?

(Initiated 41 days ago on 15 November 2024) This RfC expired five days ago, has an unclear consensus, I am involved, and discussion has died down. JJP_Master (she/they) 22:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#RfC Indian numbering conventions

(Initiated 40 days ago on 16 November 2024) Very wide impact, not much heat. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

• Consensus seems clear, I don't think my Indian-ness poses a WP;COI here, closed. Soni (talk) 22:03, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of fictional countries set on Earth#RfC on threshold for inclusion

(Initiated 36 days ago on 20 November 2024) TompaDompa (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Israel#RfC

(Initiated 33 days ago on 22 November 2024) Legobot has removed the RFC notice. Can we please get an interdependent close. TarnishedPath 23:08, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (music)#RfC about the naming conventions for boy bands

(Initiated 17 days ago on 8 December 2024) No further participation in the last 7 days. Consensus is clear but I am the opener of the RfC and am not comfortable closing something I am so closely involved in, so would like somebody uninvolved to close it if they believe it to be appropriate.RachelTensions (talk) 16:00, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable closing a discussion on a guideline change this early. In any case, if the discussion continues as it has been, a formal closure won't be necessary. —Compassionate727  13:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading

Deletion discussions

Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading

Other types of closing requests

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant#Merger Proposal

(Initiated 92 days ago on 25 September 2024) Open for a while, requesting uninvolved closure. Andre🚐 22:15, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Donald Trump#Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

(Initiated 71 days ago on 16 October 2024) Experienced closer requested. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Tesla Cybercab#Proposed merge of Tesla Network into Tesla Cybercab

(Initiated 69 days ago on 18 October 2024) This needs formal closure by someone uninvolved. N2e (talk) 03:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be better to leave that discussion be. There is no consensus one way or the other. I could close it as "no consensus," but I think it would be better to just leave it so that if there's ever anyone else who has a thought on the matter, they can comment in that discussion instead of needing to open a new one. —Compassionate727  14:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Winter fuel payment abolition backlash#Merge proposal

(Initiated 58 days ago on 29 October 2024) There are voices on both sides (ie it is not uncontroversial) so a non-involved editor is needed to evaluate consensus and close this. Thanks. PamD 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Stadion Miejski (Białystok)#Requested move 5 November 2024

(Initiated 50 days ago on 5 November 2024) RM that has been open for over a month. Natg 19 (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Move_review/Log/2024 November#Carousel (film)

(Initiated 48 days ago on 8 November 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Shiv Sena#Merge proposal

(Initiated 29 days ago on 27 November 2024) Discussion seems to have stopped. As the proposal is not uncontroversial, and I, as the initiator, am involved, I am requesting an uninvolved editor to close the discussion. Arnav Bhate (talk • contribs) 11:02, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Williamsburg Bray School#Splitting proposal

(Initiated 29 days ago on 27 November 2024) Only two editors—the nominator and myself—have participated. That was two weeks ago. Just needs an uninvolved third party for closure. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:37, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

 Doing... BusterD (talk) 20:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2024 December 2#Rafael de Orleans e Bragança

(Initiated 24 days ago on 2 December 2024) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading

Community ban proposal for "Tailsman67"

There has been discussion on AN/I regarding the latest issue with User:Tailsman67. This user was previously indef blocked for disruption and was considered de facto banned but was later given some rope and allowed back briefly before being idef blocked again. Currently, they have been harassing User:Sergecross73 and block evading via several IPs leading to several range blocks being imposed to deal with him as well as generally disruptive edits on various AFDs and articles. There was a consensus for a formal community ban proposal to be discussed here. For those who haven't been following the drama surrounding this user, please refer to Salvidrim's summary here as well as the ANI linked above. I'm posting this here as I made the initial suggestion for a community ban proposal of this user. Also included for discussion would be whether Tailsman67's latest activity warrants yet another range block. I'll notify the user on their most recently used IP and cross posting to the ANI. Blackmane (talk) 11:53, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Quick correction -- I do not believe any of the user's IP were ever indef blocked; there was repeated blocks and a number of rangeblocks, however. I would recommend reading the previous AN/I threads found on the summary page, and perusing the various IPs contributions for further clarification. Salvidrim! 12:14, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• If any other editors have noticed that "Tailsman67" is not a registered username, I just checked ANI and it appears that it's the name used by an individual editing with the IPs 98.71.62.112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 74.178.177.48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Also, I corrected your link to the ANI thread, Blackmane. Hope you don't mind. — Francophonie&Androphilie 12:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Yea, I fixed the links also, heh. :) Salvidrim! 12:14, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Haha, well you actually fixed them the right way.. — Francophonie&Androphilie 12:19, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah yes, thanks for fixing those. It was doing my head in trying to work that bit out and trying to do so late at night after a couple of beers wasn't the wisest idea. I believe the range blocks were 6 month blocks. Blackmane (talk) 19:22, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Correct. The longest rangeblock was for 6 months. Salvidrim! 23:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

• Support ban - Per my comments at the ANI subsection. It's been over a year and over 7 blocks and still no improvement. Sergecross73 msg me 17:02, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Support ban. Enough is enough. WikiPuppies _bark 17:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Support ban - It was only a matter of time. Good riddance. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Support Not a productive user, and has been a time sink for far too long. AniMate 19:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Support - The user has had more than enough chances... sufficient time has been wasted for me to believe there is little probability of this user becoming a constructive part of the encyclopedia anytime soon. However, despite everything, he has shown dedication and occasionally good faith editing, thus I believe in a year or more, a successful return is not out of the question... but we'll see then and there. Salvidrim! 22:21, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
• Support - more than adequate time has been given for this editor to reform. KillerChihuahua 12:29, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Well you can't say I never tried to help this place but since it's almost the end of the month,oh bye,wait what happens if I see vandalism?Well it doesn't matter if I get banned,all I want you to know is that I tried,thank you Salv for giving me a chance,thanks Serge for helping me out,giving me pointers,and sorry AniMate for not being good enough.98.71.62.112 (talk) 14:41, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

(Responding assuming that the above IP is Tailsman67 again) If you become banned, as the above appears likely to do, then you are banned. You should not edit the project for *any* reason. You're likely best off not reading the project either, to avoid temptation. If you see vandalism, you do not get a pass to fix it. Banned is banned. You will be banned from making any edits, helpful or otherwise. - TexasAndroid (talk) 14:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay see you in later unless i get ban,then see you never.But can someone tell me what the mean of disruptive editor means,I keep thinking it means an editor who is unneeded.98.71.62.112 (talk) 15:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Um, if you're blocked, you're already not supposed to be editing as the block applies to a person. A WP:BAN means you've been a disruptive editor after the block as well. It doesn't mean someone who is "un-needed", more like "someone who continuously fails to follow the rules and policies of the site in a manner that make more and more people do more and more work to correct the problems caused by said person" (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:17, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

• Strong Support - I agreed with the others; We don't need people like him here. Apparently judging from Salvidrim's special page, Talisman67 appears to have a hard-on for his and Sergecross73's edits and makes things hell for them. Banned is indeed banned, you are to be excommunicated and be made a nonperson for all I care. --Eaglestorm (talk) 00:26, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Banning isn't likely going to make him or her go away. Anyway, I've always opposed banning because the user will most likely go into sock puppets. --Hinata talk 20:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Did you read up on this very closely? This user has never had an account, he's always IP-hopping. His entire time here can be classified as a giant case of sockpuppetry (or IP hopping at least), so the fear that it will "most likely go into sock puppets" doesn't make any sense. I can't find the dif anymore, but he has told me before that the only reason he doesn't create an account is because he feels he can avoid any sort of indef block/ban if he never commits to a Username, but instead IP hops. Do you want to reinforce this line of thinking? Sergecross73 msg me 20:54, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I still fail to see him or her banned when he already cannot edit on his or her account. I always thought banning was useless because Misplaced Pages has limitations of understanding who really is who when IP addresses can change, bans are generally ineffective. In fact, it probably makes them to vandalize more in my opinion. --Hinata talk 21:08, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

It'd be helpful because it would greatly cut down on the time wasted on his antics. Right now, he shows himself, and then we have to wait until there's 3 or 4 instances of being disruptive, take notes, and present it to an Admin or ANI, and wait for a response/reaction/block. With a ban in place, we can cut straight straight to the chase and block him on sight. No more wasting of the time of constructive editors such as myself. After 7+ cycles of doing this, it's getting rather tiresome, especially when you see it unfold the same way every time. I'm tired of so much babysitting and cleanup. I want to work on content creation, or more pressing Admin stuff, but I can't because every time I turn around he's leaving ludicrous advice on a talk page, saying something nonsensical at an AFD I'm participating in, or making a terrible, sloppy edit on an article I'm trying clean up. Sergecross73 msg me 21:31, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

The user has no account. Always different IPs. The ban would greatly reduce time-wasting by making revert-and-block-on-sight unquestionably and swiftly enforceable. The other option would be long-term rangeblocks on his three ranges but I believe that has a higher risk of collateral damage. Salvidrim! 09:44, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support I am in full support of blocking this user indefinitely in order to save the obviously large and tedious amount of effort that has gone into reverting this user's malicious behavior. However, I am not in full support of indefinite IP blocks. Back when I was editing on public computers anonymously, I found it very difficult to edit, as many of my school's computer IP's had been blocked as the result of similar malicious behavior. I understand that he or she is a major problem, but if in fact this user is using public computers (especially at a school, college, university, etc.) it can have the potential of having other indirect consequences. So I propose that, instead of indef blocking all of the IP's, indef block the more-frequently used IP's, and put a range-block on the rest. Freebirdthemonk 17:13, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
  • A ban wouldn't be indef blocking all his IPs or anything, he just wouldn't be alowed to edit, and it would just give us the ability to block him on the spot as soon as we figure out it's him. (Which usually doesn't take long, he typically makes people plenty aware, and even if he didn't, has a certain style of sloppy writing that is easy to identify.) Anyways, I'm pretty sure 1) IP blocks are rarely are indef ones, for the reasons you just explained, and 2) I don't think we'd really even need to go back and block any of the "old" ones, he rarely revisits old IPs. (He described why once. I think it was something along the lines that his Firefox browser had a random IP generator/change thing, and once it changed, he couldn't really go back to the old ones anymore. Or something along those lines.) Sergecross73 msg me 18:50, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes, I have heard that Firefox can randomize your IP's. If this is indeed the case, then any type of long-term IP block would be appropriate. Freebirdthemonk 05:40, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Indeed, he has no account and had never revisited a previously used IP. The proposal is that the ban could be enforced by, for example, 30-day blocks for any IP he is found using, revert all contribs as per WP:BAN, and do something else until next time, which will be a different IP. Salvidrim! 19:03, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - User is already defacto banned. Just tag the account banned. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 21:21, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
  • We wanted something more formal. Even the Admin who declared the De Facto ban, Animate, recommended doing this, and !voted "Support", so I'm not sure I understand you when you say "Oppose"... Sergecross73 msg me 21:58, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Bans are a waste of time. Also, we should be more welcoming and willing to work with people who don't always agree on everything. Perhaps mentorship is preferable. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 22:56, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
      • We've already tried that. He's been around for well over a year, where he has been given many opportunities. After his 6 month block expired, a few months ago, I gave him one last shot and tried to help him, and he just resorted back to his old ways. That's why we're back at ANI/AN regarding him. The problem isn't about "agreeing on things", it's about his lack of willingness, or ability, to comprehend what the most very basic concepts of Misplaced Pages are. "Disagreements" aren't an issue; as far as I can remember, consensus has been against him literally every time. It's that I'm tired of all the warnings, cleanup, and babysitting. Your comments show you've done little to nothing to understand this particular situation. Sergecross73 msg me 01:56, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
        • Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. We should be more inclusive and less bitey. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 21:55, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• I understand that you oppose here because you believe the user is already banned, which isn't correct, since no community consensus supports that (before this discussion)? I'd like to know, regardless of AniMate's declaration months ago (but in light of his Support here, as well as that of others), if you believe the user is constructive to the project? Over a year of welcoming and mentorship failed to change anything in the user's behaviour. Salvidrim! 02:25, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• User is defacto banned because no administrator is willing to unblock. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 21:55, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm confused by your comment -- there is no current block I am aware of. Salvidrim! 03:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
• He's not currently blocked, and even if he was, I don't understand what you'd be getting at for this, why this would support your stance. (Quite frankly, if you hadn't written "Oppose" at the beginning of your first comment, I wouldn't even understand your stance at all. Your comments are all over the place. Sergecross73 msg me 04:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support as the unfortunate but logical and necessary result of actions leading to this point. --Nouniquenames 15:52, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Help needed in making community ban official

So, there seems to be a lot going on here at AN today, so I understand if this isn't first priority, but I just wanted to point out that it seems like discussion is winding down, and there's unanimous support for a community ban for Tailsman67 and all of his IPs. I'm just requesting help with finalizing this, partially because I've never done that aspect of of things before, and partially because of being "involved". Thanks! Sergecross73 msg me 02:16, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

O'Dea's block by Hex

Unarchived. I'm removing the archive template, leaving Fluffernutter's archive text below:

This is going nowhere good, fast. The block has been undone, status quo is back in place. Everyone, please go back to your corners and your work and try to de-escalate what's turned into a multiple personality-conflict pile-up. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 02:44, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Archiving is for when discussion is petering out, not for when it's ongoing but somebody thinks people should "go back to their corners". This isn't a lot like the boxing match the "corners" metaphor implies, anyway, since the parties are unequally matched (=one has a block button). (I'm planning to write something below very soon.) Bishonen | talk 15:41, 1 January 2013 (UTC).

I've just undid Hex's block on O'Dea - I see no reason to block and all the reasons to unblock. Didn't contact the blocking admin because with all these negotiations the block might expire and even though it's short this doesn't make it less outrageous. Max Semenik (talk) 23:09, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh no, not again. What is it with admins rushing to unblock without discussion - always a poor move.--Scott Mac 23:10, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

• The block was blatantly incorrect, and unblocking was obviously the right thing to do. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:13, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Posting here and getting a second opinion first would have been better. That's all I'm saying. If the block is plainly bad, a couple of others will endorse you and then you are not imposing your judgment over that of the blocking admin. If blocks can be bad judgement (and they can) so can unblocks.--Scott Mac 23:16, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
    • When the block is so obviously an abuse of admin tools, there's no prior discussion needed -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:21, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
• Jaw-droppingly bad blocks like this one are best immediately reversed, and discussed later. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:25, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, yes, but... The problem is that one admin's "Jaw-droppingly bad block" isn't another's. With a bad block the blocker has made a bad judgement call - however, humility tells me that when I judge it as such, it is entirely possible I've missed something, or indeed that others would say my judement is bad. So, unless we want one admin simply overriding the judement of another, it is best to take 5 min and come here for a sanity check. If it is obviously bad, you'll get your unblock call endorsed immediately. Much less dramatic than risking the lone gunman stuff.--Scott Mac 23:30, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

    Yeah in general it might be best to come somewhere like here and get a second opinion before undoing a block, but this kind of situation is definitely the exception. This is why WHEEL is worded the way it is, I think. There are cases—like this—where we want the damage from really poor administrative actions to be minimized as much as is possible. It was probably pretty obvious to MaxSem that if the unblock was the wrong move then O'dea was not going to do anything too harmful during the short period of time it would have taken ANI here to come to a consensus to reinstate the block. I think this unblock was the right move, even before coming here. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:23, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I don't think that this was quite an "abuse of admin tools", but a block for not using edit summaries is clearly unjustified given that no policy requires them, and many experienced editors chose to not sure them. As such, I think Max did the right thing by lifting this block without delay and reporting the matter here for additional opinions on his and O'Dea's actions. Nick-D (talk) 23:27, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

  He hadn't actually "not used edit summaries" - the blocking admin just didn't think one of them was good enough, and blocked when it was pointed out to him that he was wrong about policy. That's abuse in my book. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:30, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

No. Wrong. You're very poor at reading a situation.

I noticed a while back that O'Dea was misusing - I assumed in good faith - the minor edit feature. Advised him of the fact. He responded by blanking his talk page. I checked back later, noticed no change in behavior. Advised him much more strongly that he needed to start using it correctly and that he should not ignore the advice. He blanked it again. Checked back later, found a very poor edit summary, advised O'Dea of that fact and provided - politely - a link to help on how to correctly use the feature. O'Dea responded by grubbing through my edit history to attempt to find something to attack me with, and leaving a comment with a gibberish edit summary. I advised him not to be unreasonable as it might be interpreted badly. O'Dea responded with an inflammatory comment with another gibberish summary, clearly intended to anger me.

I blocked O'Dea for disruptive editing, exhibited by his interactions with me. Not because he didn't use an edit summary. — Hex (❝?!❞) 23:48, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Your comment prior to blocking was "Keep taking the piss and see what happens" - he wasn't taking the piss, he was pointing out that a) policy does *not* require good edit summaries, and that b) you were not perfect regarding edit summaries yourself. The block looks to me like it was out of spite. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:55, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

You look wrongly. — Hex (❝?!❞) 23:56, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it was out of spite; sometimes blocks are just bad blocks, and people need to learn from them. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:59, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the incivility/PA; none of the comments were severe enough to justify any action. I think it's a matter of interpretation whether this is ok: , personally I think it's fine. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:58, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

As far as I am aware there is no requirement for edit summaries to make sense. IRWolfie- (talk) 00:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I thought we stopped even posting stats about edit summary usage on RfA talk pages... Snowolf 23:39, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Before forming an opinion on this matter, readers should examine in the edit history what actually transpired, and not accept Hex's sanitised version of what he would like you to believe. This was inexcusable bullying followed by punishing the user with a block because he tried to stand up for himself. O'Dea is a committed content builder who had a clean block log. He has far more experience in content building than Hex has. As usual on admin boards, little interest is shown in redressing an assault like this on a valuable content builder. The focus is merely on protecting the sanctity of admins, however bad. --Epipelagic (talk) 01:33, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Hex, let me tell you about best practice: never block for attacks against yourself. (Of course don't block at all for something as un-attacky as this was, but that's another matter.) There's no rule that says you're not allowed to, but it's best not. And when you see a user post something "clearly intended to anger me", then don't oblige them, for goodness sake! Don't get angry and block in anger! You're supposed to be the bigger man in such exchanges. Not just the man with the big gun. Bishonen | talk 01:21, 30 December 2012 (UTC).

• Thanks for the comments. For the record, there was no anger involved, as much as drama queens like Epipelagic would like to make out. — Hex (❝?!❞) 02:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• Holy cat among the pigeons, Batman! Blocked for repeatedly misusing the minor edit box, something in which virtually no one pays any attention to, by an administrator who was completely, 100% involved? I've seen Hex's name around quite a bit lately and I generally like the guy, but this is a pretty colossal lapse in judgment. I sure hope he has no intention of repeating that kind of mistake again, because it actually does have a bit of a chilling effect on those who don't waste any time worrying about such arbitrary things (like myself). Kurtis 11:41, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Response to Hex by O'Dea

The following are my observations about Hex's comments, above, time-stamped at 23:48, 29 December 2012:

• Hex: "I noticed a while back that O'Dea was misusing ... the minor edit feature."

Reply by O'Dea: This is a red herring. Hex did not cite it as a factor in blocking my edits. It is not relevant at all to what he did.

• "He responded by blanking his talk page."

It is my talk page. I maintain is as I please. In the past, I used to carefully archive my talk page periodically, but more recently I concluded that it was not worth the effort to me – the amount of talk traffic is normally very low. If I or anyone wants my talk history, it is there in the page history. My present default is to clean my page fairly often, and I will remove the latest conversations on it soon. This is none of Hex's business at all and is not a factor in deciding to block another editor. This is another red herring, and Hex took it upon himself to interpret my neutral page clearing action as an attack upon him, which it was not, as my talk page history shows that I clear it often.

The WP:OWNTALK and WP:REMOVED policies were explained to Hex by another editor just two months ago and he demonstrated in his reply that he understood them, yet here he is again pretending that he has a hard time understanding policies when he complains that I cleared my talk page. Once again, he is guilty of selective narrative and inconsistency.

• "Checked back later, found a very poor edit summary."

This is a feeble attempt to make something out of nothing. Edit summaries are not compulsory, nor is there a threshold quality to be sustained. In short, my edit summaries are no business of Hex's. In any case, anyone with time on his hands who wants to trawl through my edit summary history will find precious little to complain about, and even if such an archaeologist personally despised my edit summaries, there is no binding policy concerning them. There is advice about edit summaries, and I normally summarise my edits and do so fairly meaningfully. My record speaks for itself. Hex threatened me with a block already on only his second visit to my talk page. He likes to increase the pressure rapidly. He said I would be blocked from editing until I could demonstrate that I understood the point he was making. I resisted the temptation to reply to his provocative and bullying talk of blocking with the first thought that struck me which was that, if I was blocked, I would not be able to demonstrate any kind of article editing behaviour at all. But I exercised patience and simply ignored him, and made no reply about the patent absurdity of his logic.

• "O'Dea responded by grubbing through my edit history to attempt to find something to attack me with".

This is sour grapes because I found an example of Hex failing to match his own misplaced standards. The word "grubbing" is truly an example of the kind of bad faith that Hex implied was not his style when he lectured me sanctimoniously about good faith on my talk page.

• "I advised him not to be unreasonable as it might be interpreted badly."

This is a self-serving re-interpretation and sanitization of what Hex actually said, which was, "Keep taking the piss and see what happens". That was a direct threat, and one which was expressed in less careful language than Hex is using now that his actions are under scrutiny.

• "O'Dea responded with an inflammatory comment with another gibberish summary, clearly intended to anger me."

I invite anyone to read my comment which pointed out Hex's inconsistency and directed him to read the edit summary advice at Misplaced Pages Help. It is clear from this whole fiasco that he did not understand the official position so my direction to him to read it was germane. I also asked him to cite exactly the transgression he thought I had committed, and I invited him to come back to discuss it. He has chosen to interpret this as "an inflammatory comment" – but that is his problem.

• In his latest comment about me elsewhere, Hex has said, "From my prior interactions with the user, I was unconvinced of their commitment to beneficially interacting with the rest of the community."

Leaving aside the flustered grammar, Hex's talk of "commitment to beneficially interacting with the rest of the community" is truly meaningless and irrelevant gobbledygook from a man finding himself embarrassed and in a corner.

• Hex just blew up because I pointed out his inconsistency in a way he could not wriggle out of, and he further believed, wrongly, that edit summaries are mandatory, and that I was wrong, but he was the one who misunderstood. He also misunderstood how to administer a situation like this one, and misunderstood when, and when not, to block other editors. There are, so far, ten editors who disagree with Hex's actions, on this page and at my talk page. No other editor who has examined the narrative has yet come forward to support Hex's position. I am entitled in the circumstances to repeat my demand that Hex withdraw the lie that I was "taking the piss", as the facts do not support this hostile and self-serving insinuation. — O'Dea (talk) 03:40, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

TL;DR. Looks like a nice dramatic reading.

I can spot someone taking the piss from a mile away; it takes far worse than the likes of you to get my gall up. Your mental picture presumably has me howling like a monkey and hurling the keyboard across the room, but unfortunately that wasn't the case. I will admit, however, to momentarily raising an eyebrow and putting down my cup of tea. It's possible that I may have even emitted a small sigh. Anyway, feel free to demand whatever you want. — Hex (❝?!❞) 02:20, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Hex, I think the people assuming you did this out of blind rage are simply giving you the benefit of the doubt. It's hard to imagine anyone fit to be an admin would have made such an awful block without something like the kind of furious, face-reddening anger that makes it hard for one to see straight. Arguing that you were not in a state of rage is not helping you. Arguing that this was the result of careful consideration and the kind of decision you come up with at your best is not helping you. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 17:23, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear, O'Dea... please don't expect the courtesy of a reply. Admins do not make errors. You and I are members of the unruly, and we really must be put down or ignored. The mere fact you had the presumption to come to Misplaced Pages and add content is proof enough that you are uppity. If Hex was one of the unwashed he could be arbitrarily sanctioned (if it amused just one other admin). But he's not, he's in the group that is here to arbitrarily sanction you. More to the point, your thinking on abuse is wrong. You should learn to chant the admin mantra, "the only admin abuse is abuse of admins".

Many admins are keen on using their own particular idea of "civility" as a weapon for smashing content builders. This is a splendid weapon, almost impossible to challenge, and they have been practicing lately on each other. But it is not a weapon a lowly content editor may use against an admin. It's like the samurai's sword; only the samurai may use it. Hex's behaviour and punishing block may seem a gross breach of civility. It is not, as the non-action on this board will shortly prove. Admin behaviour towards a content builder never lacks civility. Hex may discipline you at his whim. As a content builder you may grovel, but not grizzle.

The best content builders have left or are leaving, like rats perhaps, since content builders are treated like vermin here. Misplaced Pages is spiralling in deadly ways as unskillful administrators destabilise it. Hex's hubris, his clear belief he is entitled to behave the way he does, is a symptom of that. In time, if this trend continues, Misplaced Pages will degenerate into a comic book Conservapedia for the impoverished, with ingratiatingly polite overlords feasting on hapless content builders that mistakenly stumble into its maw. --Epipelagic (talk) 00:37, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Having fun, are we? — Hex (❝?!❞) 02:20, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• Really? The status quo is not "back in place". A content builder now has an undeserved block log and has been subjected to inappropriate abuse by an admin. Nothing has being done to reasonably redress this. Are you really endorsing this thread, Fluffernutter, as an exemplar of the way admins now handle content builders? --Epipelagic (talk) 03:06, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

  I am endorsing nothing here other than the fact that the thread was turning nasty very quickly and that I personally believe it would be wise for all parties to try to cool down rather than keep hammering away. I can't force you to do that, I can only recommend. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 03:13, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Well... as I predicted. there it is. --Epipelagic (talk) 03:20, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• So: no integrity, no withdrawal, no apology, no guts. Noted. — O'Dea (talk) 09:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Comment to Hex about their replies in this thread

Hex, the arrogance of your replies in this thread is terrible, especially the reply to O'Dea above, "TL;DR" and all. (Your block was terrible, too, but I think you've already been told that.) Really, O'Dea responded once, in self-defence after being blocked — unreasonably blocked, if the deafening consensus above is to be believed — and you, the blocking admin, couldn't take the time to read it? The last passage of the essay WP:TL;DR might interest you:

A common mis-citation of this essay is to ignore the reasoned and actually quite clear arguments and requests for response presented by an unnecessarily wordy editor with a flippant "TL;DR" in an attempt to discredit and refuse to address their strongly-presented ideas and/or their criticism of one's own position. This is a four-fold fallacy: ad hominem, appeal to ridicule, thought-terminating cliché, and simple failure to actually engage in the debate because one is supposedly too pressed for time to bother, the inverted version of proof by verbosity.

I'll charitably assume you didn't mean the "didn't read" literally, but only as the kind of attempt to discredit which the green quote describes, and a way to express your contempt of "the likes of you" and their "demands" (your italics). If your demeanour is a symptom of burnout, Hex, please consider taking a break, and coming back refreshed. If it represents your actual view of admin responsibilities, I'm sorry to see you're not open to recall. Would you consider standing for a new RFA? Bishonen | talk 15:57, 1 January 2013 (UTC).

• I'm really quite shocked the way Hex has responded here. The block reason was "Ignoring repeated administrative requests to properly use the edit summary feature, and responding to same by attempting to needle the admin making the requests", which is essentially for (a) failure to obey a policy that doesn't even exist, and (b) daring to point out the admin's error. In my view, this is clearly abuse of admin tools.

  An admin with integrity would be expected to accept their error and apologise, especially after the unequivocal consensus that Hex was wrong, and that is really what I was expecting to see from Hex here. Instead, we see him digging in and entrenching his unjustifiable position, downplaying what he actually said (vis "I advised him not to be unreasonable as it might be interpreted badly" versus his actual words "Keep taking the piss and see what happens"). And then in response to O'Dea's accurate, justified and clearly presented explanation of what actually happened, we got a condescending and contemptuous "TL;DR" response.

  This is typical of the arrogance of some of the bad old admins who seem to think they have carte blanche to arbitrarily impose their authoritah, and that "ordinary" editors should shut up and not talk back. Judging by this display, Hex is not fit to be an admin, and if we had a more workable route for requesting admin recall, I would be pursuing it. So Hex, as you steadfastly reject what some of your fellow admins here are telling you (and I see none supporting you), I have to join Bishonen in asking if you will stand for a reconfirmation RfA? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:43, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

While Bish's and BsZ's identification of an issue is spot on if incomplete -- there's also the drama queen PA on Epipelagic -- the correct remedy is not an unlikely-to-be accepted challenge for a reconfirmation Rfa. I'm not aware of prior screwups by Hex, so I think feedback from AN should be sufficient; if not, RFC/U should be the next step. NE Ent 17:35, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Feedback from AN should be sufficient if the editor is willing to accept it, but Hex clearly is not. And if an editor is not willing to listen to valid criticism, the entirely voluntary RFC/U process is an utter waste of time (though I suspect you are right that a request to consider a confirmation RfA will fail, I think we need to suggest that option). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:50, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

It is unknown whether Hex will accept the feedback here or not; what matters is not whether Hex posts some sort of admission but what actions they take in the the future. Clearly O'Dea has received the support of the community in validating the block was wrong, which is good. Telling Hex they erred and explaining why we think so is good; berating and badgering beyond that is not. See also Editors have pride; although it was written for a different context the underlying concepts apply. NE Ent 19:16, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

(Regarding pride, Proverbs 16:18 contains sound words - no religious affiliation on my part implied). Hex has actually rejected the feedback here so far, at least at the time of his last comment. Whether he continues to do so is currently unknown, and as Bish suggested, there are (at least) two viable options - Hex really can either accept the feedback and maybe take a break for a while, or he can continue to argue that he was right. If he chooses the latter option, then further action is required, and a reconfirmation RfA to allow the community to decide would seem like a relatively speedy and honorable way to proceed. Given Hex's apparent contempt for the opinions of others so far, I'd welcome your suggestions for a better way to proceed (given that RFC/U is entirely voluntary and cannot work if the editor in question will not consider its validity). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

The most viable and least disruptive option is the thread winds down -- the archive bot always get the the last word -- and Hex doesn't make inappropriate blocks in the future. That said, I don't think a shut the discussion up close tag is appropriate here, lest Hex and or other editors decide they have something to say.. NE Ent 20:15, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

As in archived = swept under the carpet? --Epipelagic (talk) 22:00, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Give it a rest. If admins are seriously discussing the best way to get a fellow admin desysopped, or eligible for desysopping, there's no need to make vague allegations about the cabal covering its own ass. Well, there's never a need to make vague allegations about the cabal covering its own ass, but this is an especially inappropriate case. — Francophonie&Androphilie 17:41, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Goodness, either you are joking or you radically misunderstand what is happening here. Hex will not respond and the matter will simply be dropped. This is not just some random happenstance. This is how it works here, and why the editors who are best at writing the encyclopedia are increasingly being discarded. Bishonen and Boing! are exemplary admins doing the best they can, and we are lucky we still have admins left of their calibre and humanity. But there are about 700 active admins, and it seems that Bishonen and Boing!, in this thread, are the only ones willing to champion the rights of content editors to some dignity. Misplaced Pages has already sunk into a destructive pit and become a playground for admins with decidedly other agendas. As a result, the usual default action here will happen, which is no action. Admins generally may be as incivil as they choose towards content editors. It's true that two admins were recently (and absurdly) blocked for incivility, but that was because they were incivil towards another admin, not another content editor.

Generally the ultimate act of incivility, the most humiliating and hurtful thing to do to a content editor is to block him or her. Worst is the indefinite block, which specifically aims at making the editor grovel. Right now, a move is underway at WP:BLOCK to rewrite the blocking policy so the block noose can be tightened more around the content editors neck. In this thread, an admin who recently achieved celebrity with his terminal block of Malleus Fatuorum, is charging ahead, calling for multiple blocks and the widespread use of indefinite blocks without warnings:

If I see that someone has been blocked for edit-warring before and I'm thinking about blocking him for edit-warring again, I see no value in warning him again... I'd block a handful of users rather than fully protect a page in nearly all instances... most of the blocks I give in such situations are indefinite.

Misplaced Pages's content editors are generally too good for the quality of the admin system. Most content editors have their heads down writing the encyclopedia, and do not realize, or want to realize, what is actually happening here. Anyway, this thread will no doubt be closed now on the grounds that matters like these are irrelevant on an administrators board, as indeed they seem to be. --Epipelagic (talk) 21:36, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

If this thread goes through to the archive with no acknowledgement from this admin that he has behaved badly, I'll take it to ArbCom. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 22:02, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I have never entertained the idea that administrators can or should be perfect 100% of the time; however, when administrators take action, they must be open to discussion on those actions. Recently, I came across an administrator who misused some tools. The issue was discussed and resolved, the administrator apologized and assured that the event in question would not occur again. I have no problem with that. In this case, Hex has been unwilling to discuss his actions and accept that the block was incorrect. This is wholly inappropriate for an administrator and a personality trait that isn't suited to the extra tools. I would like to see this go to ArbCom. Ryan Vesey 22:15, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I think I've got a decent amount of street cred for supporting the desysopping of admins who have a history of doing this kind of thing, but I think going to ArbCom right away, if we don't get an "acknowledgement", is premature. For one thing, demanding apologies is a mug's game. For another, I really doubt ArbCom would take the case after just this one incident. A better approach is probably to note that if it happens again, it will go to ArbCom, and point to the two recent cases where this type of thing has resulted in a desysop the admins in question ended up leaving due to the threat of a desysop (correction, I had my fact wrong. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)), once it can be shown to be a pattern. This was clearly a bad block, and a really disappointing reaction to universal criticism of it, but I suggest staying focused on the future, and not trying to back Hex into a corner. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Others have covered this below but because you are addressing my use of "acknowledgement" I should clarify that I'm not talking about an apology. I'm looking for simple recognition that his behaviour, surrounding the block and the block itself, was unambiguously bad. This is, after all, as far as I can see, the unanimous view of all here. I would certainly like to hear from anyone who thinks it was not bad. Without that acknowledgement, it would be irresponsible to leave him with the bit. We owe it to the community. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

While an apology would be appreciated, I don't believe in demanding them either; however, I do believe that administrators should be required to discuss any administrative action they take. While this is a volunteer project, I would say there's consensus that taking an administrative action must be accompanied by a willingness to discuss that action otherwise that action should not be taken. Hex failed to respond to O'Dea, responding with a TLDR and saying he could "spot someone taking the piss from a mile away". I understand your point Floq, but this just isn't the type of behavior I want to see from somebody who has the ability to block someone. Luckily, it doesn't appear like Hex uses that tool much. Ryan Vesey 22:57, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it's anything to do with apologies either, it's about trust going forward. And if Hex still believes that what he did was right, despite all the feedback he's getting, then he does not have our trust as an admin - anyone at RfA today who pointed to Hex's recent action and said it was fine would be roasted. It's fine for someone to have a bad day and make a bad call due to stress or other emotion, but we need to see a positive reaction to feedback - not an entrenched insistence that their actions were calm and justified. But in practical terms, if Hex does not respond positively, there's nothing we can do right now - because there is no de-sysop request mechanism that will deal with a case like this. As you say, Floquenbeam, ArbCom will only deal with cases when there are multiple examples of bad behaviour - I think there needs to be a mechanism that will deal with a single but unrepentant example, but there isn't one. So while I flatly reject Epipelagic's accusations that we (as admins) are trying to sweep it under the rug, the current weak system of redress does make it look that way. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:15, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Where did I generally accuse admins, and you for that matter, of trying to "sweep it under the rug"? I said nothing of the sort. In fact I specifically said that you were an exemplary admin doing the best you can. In rely to NE Ent's wish that nothing should be done and his statement that "the archive bot always get the the last word", I queried "As in archived = swept under the carpet?". Elsewhere I said that the default position is to do nothing. The reality is that that is the defacto position. It doesn't just "look that way", it is that way. Do you think that is incorrect? Why are you taking exception? You attacked me before in a similar manner, and I can only assume you are simmering with some anger you have about my views or attitude (real or imagined). If that is the case then I invite you to ask me about it somewhere so we can see if there is any substance to it. --Epipelagic (talk) 02:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Apologies for my misunderstanding. (As for any past interaction between us, I'm afraid I don't remember it, sorry - I have to confess I only vaguely recognise your name) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:41, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree; for me the issue isn't so much that there was no apology, it's that Hex still seems to believe this block was remotely reasonable. They're probably related, though, since presumably there is no apology because Hex still believes that this block was fine. As boing points out, there isn't much we as admins can do: threaten to indef Hex if this happens again? Hex isn't in Category:Wikipedia_administrators_open_to_recall so that pretty much just leaves us with ArbCom, and anyone can take this to ArbCom. I'm not quite as sure as others seem to be that arbcom won't take the case; the new panel might be a bit more willing to deal with the perennial complaint that desysopping is too hard... HaugenErik (talk) 23:39, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I was curious about that. Could the new ArbCom declare that they will entertain requests for desysop? They'd accept or decline in the same manner as normal requests, but there would be fewer hoops to be jumped through before taking it to ArbCom because there aren't other desysop venues to take care of it. Ryan Vesey 23:57, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, they wouldn't need to make any declarations, would they? They would either accept the case (possibly in response to the complaints about it being too hard to desysop) or they wouldn't (because there aren't "multiple examples of bad behaviour"). ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 01:42, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I hesitate to post this, as I think all I'm about to do is needlessly complicate everyone's life, but... Note that this looks very similar to the current situation. For those of you thinking about ArbCom, this is good news (beginnings of a pattern) and bad news (from November 20092008. (oops)). I'd still be surprised if an ArbCom case was accepted, but no longer think it's impossible. At this point, I'd like confirmation from Hex that he won't block anyone except clear vandals and spammers, something he's been doing without apparent incident for many years. To get me to not care anymore, he doesn't need to agree he's in the wrong, just that he doesn't agree with the Community's opinion, and is therefore going to skip that aspect of adminship. --Floquenbeam (talk) 02:21, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, so he's done this kind of thing more than once - and he wouldn't accept being told it was a bad block last time either. I'm still not convinced that ArbCom would act on "once every three years" bad admin actions, but it must increase the chance slightly. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 02:41, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

There's this from 23 December 2012. Where Hex blocked Twehringer thesociety (talk · contribs) for an unspecified user name violation, without discussing it first, as the policy recommends. This user name breaches no policy. Username policy says, "

Moved from WP:ANEW – With some minor modifications. --Bbb23 (talk) 16:08, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

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