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Vicky's Cafe

An editor added the following material to the Development in the U.S. section. I removed it from the article, and am putting it here for verification. I was unable to corroborate it or find reliable sources for it. If the editor (or anyone else) can verify it, then it's been preserved here for reintroduction to the article. Here it is:

While Alejandro Borquez may have served burritos in his Sonora cafe, it is controversial to say he was first to serve burritos to the American public. One must research and acknowledge the contributions of another Sonoran restauranteur in Los Angeles, California, one Victoria Rico, who owned and operated "Vicky's Cafe" in downtown Los Angeles, just a couple of blocks from City Hall and many business offices, where much of her clientele worked or frequented. Newly arrived in the United States, having left the Hermosillo region of Sonora due to political and personal hardship, Victoria, along with her mother Mercedes Rico and oldest brother Jose Rico researched local American food eating habits and discovered the popularity of hot dogs and hamburgers. Thus, in the mid-1920's, Victoria--with the help of her family--made her initial foray into the restaurant business serving breakfast and lunch out of a little "hole in the wall" location. Vicky's Cafe opened for breakfast and lunch only: eggs, bacon, and potatoes were the morning favorites; while hot dogs, hamburgers and french fries became lunchtime winners.

All of this changed when two customers arrived at the end of her typical lunch service and she had sold out of all her regular items. Pressing Victoria for something to eat, and asking her what she normally ate when she was in a hurry, she told them to give her a couple of minutes and she would prepare them something traditional to her Sonoran family roots. She went back to her kitchen and made each of them a "green chile verde" and a "red chile colorado" burrito, and asked them to try it and that they didn't have to pay if they didn't like it. The two men not only loved her "new specialty" they paid her and gave her a five cent tip (a lot of money back in the late 1920's). When they began bringing their friends and business associates to taste Vicky's wonderful "BEW-REE-TOES" ... she decided to not only add them to her menu, but to add favorite some of her favorite Sonoran cuisine as additional items to her standard fare. Throughout the 1930's, 40's, and 50's, Vicky's cafe expanded and became a regular Mexican dining favorite for the Los Angeles crowd. Many celebrities frequented her establishment, which was known as "The Home of the Original Burrito".

Comments welcome. Dohn joe (talk) 20:05, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Reverting bold change

I am reverting a bold change done by Viriditas, per WP:BRD. The section in question is not a history section, and thus it is not necessary to list the types of burritos chronologically. As the section is a list of the types of Burritos in the United States, and not a history of burritos in the United States, it falls under MOS:LIST.

Furthermore, as there is a main article about San Francisco Burritos, I could argue that there is too much content about the burrito here in this article, and only a one paragraph summary should be included in this article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:06, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

You failed to supply an actual reason for your reversion. Instead, you reverted for no reason and then proceeded to distract from your failure to provide a reason for you revert with off topic red herrings that have no bearing on his discussion. Food history most certainly appears in chronological order in both prose and section headings, and our own sources describe this history, so your blind reversion without reason serves no rational aim nor purpose. We don't edit Misplaced Pages based on your personal preferences for a region, we edit based on the sources which describe these regional variations in order as Mexico - San Francisco - San Diego. You don't get to subvert this order because YOUDONTLIKEIT. I wil be restoring the sourced order of sections in my next series of edits. Unless you are willing and able to provide reasons for your edits, there is no point in continuing this non-discussion. The history of the burrito is told in chronological order, not by order of your personal preference or pet theories and whims. Viriditas (talk) 00:44, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Please see WP:CIVIL (specifically WP:AVOIDYOU) & WP:OWN. The section of the article is not about food history, but about describing a list of types of burritos. Therefore the linked MOS applies; thus it should not be listed chronologically, but alphabetically. Furthermore, no one editor owns an article, and given that I have stated here MOS justifying the edit, reverting my reversion would begin an edit war and I kindly ask that this not happen.

Nowhere did I say that I do not like that "Mission-style" burrito. If you look at my profile I have spent time both in the SF Bay Area, and in San Diego, and enjoy both types of Burrito (actually its hard for me to find a good "Mission-style" burrito in the greater San Diego Area (Chipotle does not do it justice)), so to accuse me of reverting the order based on IDONTLIKEIT is false, and I kindly ask that unfounded accusations against me stop.

I have stated my reason for reverting the bold edit in the opening paragraph. There is not reason to make this an uncivil conversation, and I kindly ask that any incivility stop.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:03, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

You apparently did not understand what I wrote. Nothing I said violated CIIVL. You must use the sources and you must have reasons for your edits. End of discussion. You provided reasons for editing other material that has nothing to do with your edits under discussion. Until you discuss why you reversed the structure outside the timeline of the food history presented in the soureces, there is nothing to talk about. We don't edit based on personal preferences, personal beliefs, or personal whim. Viriditas (talk) 01:15, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I did read what was written, and it is my view that the initial response was uncivil at worse, at felt condescending at least. My source for the reversion of the bold change is that MOS does not support the bold change. The section in question, is not a history section. There is already a section on that. Rather, it is in a section entitled "Regional varieties", and goes on to List those varieties. In cases where there is a primary article about that variety, a summary is included in this article. In cases where there is no primary article, or where that article has been redirected here, verified content is included.

I see my reversion based on WP:BRD and keeping with MOS:LIST, has itself been reverted. I have asked before that this not be done, as it is initiating an edit war, something I kindly asked not to start.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:22, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand a single word of what you've written above nor how it could amount to a semblance of reasonable rationale for your recent blind reverting of material that both reflects the sources and our relevant policies and guidelines. We don't use guidelines like the MOS to support arguments about encyclopedia content, such as the chronological food history of regional burrito varieties. It really does sound like you did not read my comments, as you haven't supported your reverts with a single solid argument. As I said before, you appear to be blindly reverting based on your personal preferences, personal beliefs and personal whims about the subject rather than the actual sources. Contrary to your repeated claims, we do write food history in a chronological order, and we don't use the MOS guidelines as some kind of strategy to avoid it. This discussion is beyond bizarre. Viriditas (talk) 01:30, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

"I don't understand what was written" is a poor reason to begin an edit war, and to not follow BRD.

In the edit summary, there is a unilateral claim that two separate sections are in fact one, and thus the follow on section should be listed chronologically. This is no consensus to support this reasoning.

To state my reversion is blind, is false.

Please see the MOS, as the section is a list of regional varieties, the content should be listed alphabetically as the MOS:LIST indicates. Furthermore, even if there was a local consensus here to support it being listed based on the date a variety was first documented, that is not sufficient reason to ignore the guideline and continue to list it non-alphabetically.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:46, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you are not making any sense. This isn't a list and we don't write history alphabetically. Please try to find an actual rationale for your edits that applies to this discussion. History is written chronologically. Viriditas (talk) 02:27, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Again, let me state that no one editor owns an article. The reversion of the bold edit was supported by a MOS guideline. As another editor continues, in my humble opinion, to be incivil towards me I will take a break from editing this article for a day or two, as there will always be time to come back to improve this article. Good day.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:59, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy to work with you, but lets both try to work towards improvement. Viriditas (talk) 02:27, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hi, one of you requested a third opinion, and I'm here to provide one. After reading through the above discussion, reading through the diffs and the MOS link, I think I would side with RCLC because, as he mentioned, this section is regarding regional varieties, not history. If it were regarding the history, then it would make sense to discuss them chronologically, but it seems that this is simply a list of various varieties, and therefore I believe it makes sense to list alphabetically. That would be my third opinion. Of course, you are welcome to carry this further in the dispute resolution process, but over something this minor, I would strongly urge you both to simply drop it and move on. It's not the end of the world. Thanks to you both for remaining relatively civil to one another, and happy belated new year to you both. Go Phightins! 02:14, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

California Burrito

In doing a search about the California Burrito, which use to have its own article, which was boldly and unilaterally changed into a redirect article, I have found 76 book mentions, multiple news mentions, and even more webhits (55.8K) of the subject. It can be argued that the subject is sufficiently notable to warrant its own article, per WP:GNG.

As for it being a "San Diego-style" burrito, there are only two book mentions, no news mentions, and about 26K mentions on the web. Therefore, per WP:COMMONNAME any new article should be named California burrito.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:14, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Food writers and historians clearly refer to it as a "San Diego-style" burrito, which explains its regional variation and development, so you're wrong. As usual, your cherry picking of sources (using GHits is problematic as you've been informed over and over and over again) leaves a lot to be desired. The term "California burrito" is used interchangeably, and can be a source of great confusion while discussing regional burrito variations within California. The reason the standalone article no longer exists is because it was created by POV pushers using original research and poor sources. Since that time additional sources have become available, but they are extremely poor and consist mostly of food reviews of restaurants and say little to nothing about the subject. Do I think it deserves its own subject? Yes, per Gustavo Arellano, but you need to actually do the research and use good sources, not just passing mentions in restaurant reviews published in blogs. Viriditas (talk) 01:26, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

"California burrito" and "San-Diego-style burrito" are not synonymous, as the sources indicate. The California burrito is one kind of San Diego-style burrito. I thought we'd been over that at some point before... I restored the S.D. section to reflect that. Dohn joe (talk) 22:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Again, I kindly ask that we follow WP:AVOIDYOU.

So are we in agreement that the subject is now notable enough for a stand alone article?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

We don't have to be in agreement, I would still support the right of anyone to create the article. But it has to have good sources to survive the redirect and deletion process. I suggest you restart the article with improved sourcing if that is what you desire. Viriditas (talk) 01:35, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

You may want to consider using the AfC process to create the article if there are concerns about sourcing. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 04:32, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

The third opinion request is for the section above this one, Talk:Burrito#Reverting bold change, and not this section.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:55, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

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