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December 1

Muslim nations Snow

Which Muslim-majority nations do receive snow during its winter season? I want the answer to be in a list so I can visit them during their winter season and feel the experience. Please and Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 01:21, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

We had the same question several months ago. If you don't find the answer you're looking for there, just let us know. Evanh2008  01:27, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) The most obvious answer is Turkey, which is reasonably far north and has extensive mountains. So does Iran, although it's harder to travel freely there (eg to the snowy bits) for visa and travel permit reasons. I am unable to supply a more comprehensive list at present, but if other people give useful answers too, you might try compiling a list yourself. AlexTiefling (talk) 01:30, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

It snows in Morocco, according to their tourism commercials. There is snow in the mountains, at least. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:43, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Ifrane is a ski resort in Morocco. It had the lowest ever recorded temperature in Africa: -24°C in 1935. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 15:01, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Then there's Pakistan and Afghanistan. Tourist Meccas that they are in summer, they must be even more attractive in winter. :-) StuRat (talk) 01:59, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Respectfully, are we joking about Pakistan receiving tourists? Pakistan receives LOTS of tourists. (Afghanistan fewer, admittedly, but it's got huge potential for future tourism including awesome winter sports on the snow which this question is about...)Your Username 23:44, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure it does, but to Americans who keep up with overseas events, but who have no particular family or personal ties to Pakistan, the idea of a pleasure trip to Pakistan sounds slightly bizarre at the moment, considering that there are many other countries which are equally scenic, but with a whole lot fewer fanatical extremists, terrorists, and terrorist wannabes. If the Sri Lankan cricket team can't make to the stadium without being bombed, then it seems that U.S. visitors must be very cautious where they go... AnonMoos (talk) 00:37, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

There's Canada. μηδείς (talk) 04:12, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Fixed your link. Hope you don't mind. Evanh2008  04:32, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone has a standing invitation to do so. μηδείς (talk) 04:41, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, in Russia: Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, North Caucasian Republics (mostly in the mountains, in the valleys snow is weak).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 04:48, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
• Albania has relatively warm winters but it gets some snow, especially in the mountains. There are apparently some ski resorts there. Wow. Also: Bosnia-Herzegovina has a Muslim plurality if that counts. 66.127.54.40 (talk) 06:42, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I got Kazakhstan, Iran, Kyrgyzstan, Turkey, but what about Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan? don't they get snow in winter season? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• Well, you've all forgotten Tanzania. I am surprised no one has simply quoted the entire discussion of this two moths back to this thread. It would save time. μηδείς (talk) 18:08, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I heard that if you put two moths together you're liable to get some more moths. But I think that's a myth. -- Jack of Oz 19:25, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

That's not the first such comment by you I've come acrost. You seem to do it alot. In fact, it's curious whether you do much of anything else. μηδείς (talk) 19:52, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure Jack would try to place hats on more discussions without any consensus to do so, but someone else seems to be doing that job quite well... --Jayron32 20:30, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

As for "much of anything else", *cough". -- Jack of Oz 21:20, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Every year or two it snows in Palestine. 75.34.30.62 (talk) 20:45, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Jordan. And I've seen snowdrifts in Afghanistan (mentioned above) that were twice the height of an SUV. But I suppose that's original research. Maybe a shorter list would be Muslim countries that do not receive snow. And another question might be why would anybody assume that Muslim countries don't receive snow? Your Username 23:41, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Most Muslim countries get snow on rare occasions and/or in mountains where few people live. Not so many Muslim-majority countries get snow every year in their main population centers. In Istanbul, there is little snow most winters. However, in Turkey's capital and second-largest city, Ankara, there is snow most winters. Tabriz in Iran has fairly snowy winters. So does Kabul, Afghanistan. The major cities of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan all see significant snow in the winter. (The main cities of Turkmenistan see a little snow most winters, but typically not enough to stay on the ground long.) They aren't countries, but the Caucasian "republics" of Russia, such as Chechnya, also see some snow in the winter, though their dry climates mean that snowfall is light and tends to melt or sublimate. None of the other majority Muslim countries see much snow in their main population centers most winters. Marco polo (talk) 01:27, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The following was posted in response to the same user when he posted the same question September 9th :

Which Muslim nations do tend to receive snow during the winter season? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.155.47 (talk) 16:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Iran gets snow in its mountains, enough for quite a few skiing areas. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 16:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

(ec)It depends how you define "Muslim nation." For example, Kazakhstan is a secular republic, but its population is about 70% Muslim. It is a fairly arid place, but it has cold winters with snow. The climate of the Islamic Republic of Iran is very diverse, but there are high-altitude basins, and numerous very tall mountain ranges; heavy snowfall is common in most of the country. Afghanistan is very snowy, and last time I checked, it is officially an Islamic Republic. And, I'd be remiss if I did not mention Lebanon... the Lebanese people are diverse, but there are many Muslims. As I learned the etymology, "Lebanon" and "lebneh" both come from the same root-word, describing the snowy mountains. Though, this is not in universal agreement. In fact, a senseless war was fought over it. Nimur (talk) 16:42, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The mountains of Pakistan, such the Pakistani parts of the Karakoram, get a lot of snow. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 18:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

There are the Caucasus mountains. μηδείς (talk) 20:07, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

This past February Bosnia and Albania were both hit by heavy snowfall, although this was unusual. Some parts of Turkey receive snow, as any reader of Orhan Pamuk will remember. Of course, there is a particular place in Dubai where it snows every night. LANTZY 21:34, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The IP seems to be from Canada, (Toronto per geolocate), which may explain the implied bias. μηδείς (talk) 21:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

What helpful information is conveyed by your comment on "implied bias"? Bielle (talk) 22:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Um, the point of view that southern lands don't get snow? What in the world did you think I meant? μηδείς (talk) 18:40, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

That point of view might need readjusting. South America, Africa and Australia all get snow. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ 20:57, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

See Syria: desperate Homs residents collect snow to drink as water is cut off and SNOW IN JORDAN Weird but True. Alansplodge (talk) 22:34, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

And I found Bethlehem SNOW! - a mainly Christian town in the Muslim dominated West Bank. Alansplodge (talk) 22:42, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

On a roll now - It Snows in Alexandria (Egypt), Snowfall in Saudi Arabia and UAE's 'once in a lifetime' snow fall although the last sounds rather exceptional - there's a nice video of some chaps in traditional Bedouin robes building a snowman. Alansplodge (talk) 22:47, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Afghanistan in particular is infamous for its deadly avalanches and cold waves. Also, if you count the Taklimakan Desert as a "Muslim region", then it has snowed there. ~AH1  18:34, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

John Mix Stanley in Hawaii

John Mix Stanley painted portraits for King Kamehameha III and Queen Kalama in 1850. To the left and right. Were these pieces ever in color? I can't find anything online for them except the Hawaii States Archive where everything is black and white.

Have you tried contacting the Archive? If they're all that way, maybe the black-and-whites are merely for reference and no one has bothered to photograph them otherwise. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 09:41, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I suspect they were painted in color. The concept of "black and white" really came with photography. Certainly "charcoal drawing" existed, but it was rarely used for final products. Oil paintings in greyscale would seem very odd indeed. I would be surprised if these are not originally in color. --Jayron32 12:48, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I also think they were probably in color, but it isn't really correct that black and white came with photography. It was very common before photography for travelers who wanted to remember what something looked like to dash off a pencil sketch or an ink sketch. Looie496 (talk) 16:40, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I presume Woodblock printing of images and Woodcut was also sometimes done solely in black and white. Nil Einne (talk) 11:36, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Probably two issues here. These might well be lithographic reproductions of his paintings; and a lot of his originals were destroyed in a fire at the Smithsonian in 1865. --jpgordon 16:20, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

That would explain it. I still think the way to find out for sure is to contact the museum directly. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:35, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Although the paintings lost at the Smithsonian are described as his "Indian Gallery" (ie paintings of Native Americans that he was hoping to sell to Congress). See Pioneer Photographers of the Far West: A Biographical Dictionary, 1840-1865 By Peter E. Palmquist, Thomas R. Kailbourn (p.518). It seems a bit unlikely that he would be commissioned to paint portraits of the king and queen and then carry them off home with him. Alansplodge (talk) 21:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

According to Catlin and His Contemporaries: The Politics of Patronage By Brian W. Dippie, Stanley was paid $5,000 for them, so certainly wouldn't have been allowed to leave with them. Alansplodge (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It's fairly inconceivable that the originals wouldn't have been in color, like his other similar works. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:57, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

What is the approach in political science that do not focus on the rigorous mathematical empirical methods?

Behaviorist movement really made political science empirical by using mathematical foundations in order to provide precise conclusions, but this approach is only useful if the study is quantitative and comparative. Anyway since there is this scholarly movement pursuing the use of symbolic elements perhaps there is also another approach which is distinct and quite the opposite of the other much as like of Continental and Analytic philosophical divide. What is that distinct approach? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshua Atienza (talk • contribs) 07:16, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

In anthropological fieldwork, Participant observation and Thick description are more common than statistics. They're meant to be factual/empirical in their own way, concerning things which can't be easily quantified. The problem with behavioralism/operationalism was that in their extreme forms they claimed that anything which couldn't be measured (or which you couldn't set out a procedure of steps to be able to theoretically measure) either didn't exist, or could be completely ignored in explaining observables (things which could be measured). In structural linguistics as practiced in the United States, behavioralism/operationalism entered a somewhat degenerate phase in the 1950s, imposing rigid methodological shackles ("biuniqueness" etc.) which focused much attention on side issues such as whether a linguistic analysis could be derived by specified procedural steps from a specified language corpus. AnonMoos (talk) 12:32, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

A lot of political philosophy is not quantitative at all (e.g. John Rawls). I don't know if that counts as political "science". 66.127.54.40 (talk) 21:22, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Political science and its sub-disciplines (e.g. international relations) all have quantitative and qualitative forms. They ask different questions and, they require different skills in answering them. I don't think they have special names, they are just different flavors for how people work within these disciplines — it is known by everyone in these fields that there are some people who are quants and some people who are concerned with qualitative issues. My experience has been that nobody in these disciplines thinks of them as quantitative-only, or even quantitative-by-default. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

professions where thinking logically is a disadvantage

Are there professions where thinking logically is a disadvantage? --178.48.114.143 (talk) 10:02, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Well I was going to say the creative arts, but certainly all forms of music follow their own structures and logic, regardless of whether they are immediately obvious to the observer. I suggest spiritual healer. ;) --TammyMoet (talk) 10:54, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

The church, alternative therapies, the tobacco industry, the alcohol industry, the meat industry....--Shantavira| 11:32, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

In several of those areas, there's a lot of logical reasoning based on possibly-dubious premises. For that matter, formal logic was basically kept alive by theologians for centuries during the Middle Ages... AnonMoos (talk) 12:13, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

That's basically it: It's not necessarily that the logic is flawed, it's that the basic assumptions are flawed. As one of my math teachers once said, rather charitably, "If you start with false assumptions, you're liable to get interesting results." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 12:39, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Politician? Adam Bishop (talk) 12:21, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Let's not define logic too broadly. Logic is just how you concatenate ideas in a non-contradictory way. There is nothing illogical in the alcohol, tobacco or meat industry, even if you don't agree with their world-view.

And we also have to draw a line between producers of some theories and consumers of the same. For being politician, clergy, even for creating a sect, logical thinking won't be a hindrance. Indeed, I dare to say that under no circumstances you'll have any disadvantage by thinking straight. OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:36, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Surrealist. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:31, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Even in the case of surrealism, you'll need to think logically to produce illogical effects. Otherwise, how would you know at all that you are surrealist? OsmanRF34 (talk) 17:29, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• It depends on what you mean by "thinking logically". It is never a benefit to think illogically. (Osman's correct that even professional liars need to think straight.) But there are situations like sports (say, golfing) or piano playing, or touch typing where thinking about what you are doing, like consciously concentrating on your fingers as you type, will throw you off and cause you to choke. In those cases your mode of consciousness is not logical/verbal and your focus is on the ball, the music, or the composition, not what steps you are actually going through to move your body. μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• Really effective persuaders (politicians, salespeople, etc.) actually do apparently believe their own bullshit, at least some of the time. Of course that is illogical but they benefit a lot from it. Believing it means they can pitch it with unfaked sincerity that makes it all the more convincing. See reality distortion field. 66.127.54.40 (talk) 21:31, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Believing one's own rhetoric is one of humanity's most cherished traditions. For example, we see it demonstrated here on the Ref Desk almost every day of the week. -- Jack of Oz 21:59, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes. An effective salesman (which in a broad sense includes politicians) has to be not only willing to lie, but to believe the lie himself... that is, to believe a false premise regardless of evidence to the contrary. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 05:34, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, but reality distortion field is just pseudoscience. And lots of people refuse to acknowledge consciously what they know subconsciously, it's called cognitive dissonance. Those are the slick politician types. Some politicians are actually sincere, like James Trafficant, Dubya, Jimmy Carter, and Ronald Reagan. There are also actually some good salesmen. They are the ones who have good products to sell. It happens. μηδείς (talk) 06:07, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, who should I believe... You? Or my own eyes? :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:57, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

"Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them." — The Hand That Feeds You: 20:12, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a salesman talking. "Oldie Von Moldy's Used Cars." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Astrologer or fortune teller. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:41, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Mitt Romney's campaign manager. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:24, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Athletes, especially at the highest levels, tend to avoid thinking about the game situation because they believe it adversely affects their reaction time. They train to rely on instinct rather than examining the situation. As Yogi Berra supposedly said, "You can't think and hit at the same time."    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 14:00, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

geometrical buildings

There is a page on Misplaced Pages which shows the buildings which are in geometrical shape like Luxor Las Vegas which is in pyramidal shape , etc . Please find it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.224.21.87 (talk) 10:24, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Try Category:Buildings and structures by shape. Mikenorton (talk) 11:12, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

I've linked the Luxor and removed the ref markup.Mikenorton (talk) 11:12, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Burke's Landed Gentry 2003 ed. Murdoch family

How can I find this online please? Kittybrewster ☎ 14:32, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Unless somebody torrented it (in which case we wouldn't point you to it here) you will probably have to go to the library. It's worth the trip, they are interesting places, buildings full of high quality copyrighted materials that you can read as much as you want for free. 66.127.54.40 (talk) 21:27, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Try the Resource Request. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 22:10, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

With all the due respect, can we say that these countries are not completely independent?

The Aroche city

How can I to know how long time the Aroche city is existing? I would like to know if this city was before 700 year ego 109.253.224.113 (talk) 23:55, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Before the reconquest, you mean? Why 700 years?

Aroche seems to have an archaeological museum with evidence of much earlier settlement - ie. Roman. The local tourism site has some an outline of the area's history. bobrayner (talk) 00:08, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

There are claims that Aroche is Turobriga, see es:Turobriga. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:11, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

According to the article at Spanish Misplaced Pages, the city has existed as far back as the 1200s. --Jayron32 00:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

December 2

Francis Xavier

I just want to ask why Francis Xavier called "Apostle of the Indies". Thanks. 110.54.176.2 (talk) 04:31, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

you should read Francis Xavier, which makes it quite clear. μηδείς (talk) 04:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Do many of the Indigenous peoples of the Americas not just Canada, USA and Greenland have Mongoloid features and are of Oriental origin?

Do many of the Indigenous peoples of the Americas not just Canada, USA and Greenland have Mongoloid features and are of Oriental origin? Would they aboriginals of Peru be of Oriental perhaps going backs thousands of years? Neptunekh94 (talk) 05:42, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The northern tier you listed are the main places where the later waves of migration from northern Asia occurred. I think some made it all the way to Iceland, too. For example, Björk looks partly Asian, to me:

. StuRat (talk) 05:46, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• For some odd reason we don't have an article on the Americanoid race. You can search google for that term, here's the link to it at google scholar. According to most anthropologists and the better linguists, there were some three major migrations into America. The first was the Amerind, the second the Na-Dene and the third the Eskaleut. None of these is exactly of the Mongoloid race as classically defined. But shovel teeth and other features (again, strangely not mentioned at wikipedia) are seen as features linking mongoloids and americanoids. PS, Björk looks Uralic, for which see Uralo-Siberian. μηδείς (talk) 06:01, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Without getting into debates about the validity of 'race' as a scientific concept, or the ethics of using Björk as an illustration of something-or-other, I'd just like to point out that if one ignores the misleading cartographic conventions, the distance (both geographic and presumably also in terms of whom you engage in reproductive hanky-panky with) between 'east' and 'west' as you move north gets smaller in both directions. It is entirely possible - and probably quite likely - that the inhabitants of Iceland descended from adventurers from the east shared relatively-recent-relatives (!) with those coming in the other direction. On this basis, trying to decide where Björk got her cheekbones from is rather futile. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:22, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Iceland is renowned for having thorough genetic records of their citizens, so if anyone can track down the origins of their ancestors, that would be them. StuRat (talk) 07:24, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure it's next on their list... Anyway, you're speculation is incorrect - at least as far back as historic record goes, Iceland was settled by Scandinavian people and consistently a site of only their migrations for pretty much the entirety of it's history thereafter. There's no evidence to support the notion of earlier habitation from an east-moving migration, but as this did happen in somewhat-neighboring Greenland, it cannot be entirely ruled out. Regardless, there is no significant contiguous genetic connection between the early migratory groups who moved into the Americas via northeast Asia and the modern ethnicity that Bjork belongs to -- if indeed her genetics are typical of those who live there, and who can really speak as to that? Of course, as has been noted above, the question of whether she looks Asian is partially nonsensical; although we all agree there are trends in the phenotypes of certain ethnicities and that we all can intuit these subtleties to some degree, the truth is, we aren't as good at it as we tend to think we are. But then there are good reasons for this; if you study the diversity of human morphology long enough, you begin to see how recurrent certain phenotypical traits are, even when there is no strong genetic link. The independent evolution of a certain look to the eyelid or ears is not uncommon -- remember that these changes are based more on sexual selection than natural selection, so there's a lot more variation here (even within a given ethnic group) than with traits which are selected for purely by survival odds. Which is a bit of a tangent, but the sum is this: people typically will find all manner of traits from a given race on those occasions when they stop to determine the ancestry of a given face -- and usually these are entirely impressionistic, as with Asian Bjork. Edited to add: That being said, if you had shown me that picture and asked, "Could this woman be from Asia?" I'd certainly have said yes. Looking at her other pictures on our pages though, she certainly looks like she'd fit right in amongst the mixed Nordic-Sami type folk you find in the more northern reaches of Scandinavia. Snow (talk) 08:10, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

So the theory is that Iceland was uninhabited when discovered by the Vikings ? That doesn't seem likely, considered how long nearby Greenland had been occupied (since 2500 BC). And Iceland is a lot more habitable than Greenland, what with thermal springs and all. StuRat (talk) 09:25, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The possibility can't be absolutely disproven, but there's never been any archeological or paleoanthropological evidence to suggest previous occupation before the arrival of European colonists. Bear in mind that the habitability of the region has varied considerably throughout the human epoch and while Greenland was subject to several different waves of migration, many of them did not fair well in the long run (the Scandinavian colonization of the island eventually failed, for example). It's possible the earlier Greenlanders simply never made it that far east. I agree it's not a very satisfying explanation, but the lack of any positive evidence for previous habitation for Iceland is compelling and the ubiquity of human life begins to break down as you approach the poles -- even today Greenland and Iceland have two of the lowest population densities of all nations/regions.Snow (talk) 10:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

StuRat -- when the Scandinavians settled Iceland, the only previous inhabitants they found were a few Irish monks. The lack of other previous inhabitants isn't too surprising, given that Iceland is several hundred miles away from other habitable regions at a somewhat inhospitable latitude. AnonMoos (talk) 10:25, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. And if you check the maps at Greenland#Early_Paleo-Eskimo_cultures, you can see that none of the early cultures settled on the East coast of Greenland (which is still 300 km from Iceland). Only the Thule people managed, and that long after Iceland was settled from Europe. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:51, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Hum, where did I get the idea that Iceland had ever been settled from the east west from then? Should have checked. Then again there was a period when parts of Greenland were occupied by Norsemen, in contact with both Iceland to the east and Arctic peoples to the west, so gene flow was still just about possible. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:41, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, it has been settled from the East (where Europe is, relative to Iceland), not from the West (where the East coast of Greenland is ;-). A question about spelling: aren't the compass directions proper nouns and hence capitalized? I'm happy to learn something... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:22, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Doh! Still half asleep. I meant west - or possibly West. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:30, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The rule I use is that a direction isn't capitalized, but a region is: "I'm going to head south until I make it to the South." StuRat (talk) 19:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• The vikings did not claim to be first on Iceland. Settlement of Iceland. μηδείς (talk) 17:08, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

  Well, yes, but for the purposes of handing on genes to modern-day people we can treat vikings as the first (and practically only) settlers; there may well have been visits by others, and it seems likely that there were a handful of Irish monks, but hardly the kind of long-term settlement where children are born & raised &c. If I remember correctly from Collapse, vikings who settled further west didn't intermingle with other people who had got there earlier (ie. the Inuit) so it's unlikely that the small number of descendants travelling back east would have brought back a lot of "inuit" DNA to Iceland that way... although this is tantalising. bobrayner (talk) 18:27, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

There is no reason to assume the monks did not have non-monastic companions assuming they were there for more than a few years--someone got them there, likely fishermen. As for no contact between the vikings and the skraelings, see our articles on the Haplogroup X (mtDNA) and on blond Eskimos. μηδείς (talk) 21:29, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, "intermingling" might very well have been forbidden, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that it was more likely to have been kept hidden. StuRat (talk) 21:41, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

More likely that the monks took themselves; see Brendan for example. Alansplodge (talk) 22:38, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Undoubtedly some monks could sail, but they learned it from sailors, not their book of vows. God forbid I had to travel from Ireland to Iceland bearing a cockleful of clerics and nary a navigator with me. A monastic colony would require more than just monasts. μηδείς (talk) 22:52, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The discussion of Iceland and Greenland is fascinating to me, but it does seem that this thread has veered off from the OP's question, which was whether the indigenous peoples of Latin America have Mongoloid features and are of Oriental origin? A starting point would be Indigenous peoples in Peru (since the OP specifically mentioned Peru) and Indigenous peoples in South America. Also see Indigenous peoples of the Americas#Migration into the continents. Duoduoduo (talk) 19:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

What can Israel do now after the setback at the UN?

With only Canada, the U.S. and a bunch of tiny countries supporting Israel, what can the administration of Mr. Netanyahu do now as retaliation, or better said to avoid the predict future thing. What's doing now? Keeeith (talk) 13:16, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Lots of news websites (the Guardian and the Washington Post, for example) are reporting that Israel has announced an expansion of settlements and that it is withholding taxes from the Palestinian government, and that these actions are widely seen as reactions to the General Assembly vote. Though, it isn't really accurate to describe the "yes" votes as "supporting Israel". The question being voted on was "should Palestine's status at the UN be changed from non-state observer to non-member observer", not "do you support Israel". 81.98.43.107 (talk) 14:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Beatification of Sancha of León

Was Sancha of León ever beatified? The Spanish wiki calls her a Beata.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 17:12, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

English Misplaced Pages says the same thing ("Blessed")... AnonMoos (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I added that based on what was the Spanish wiki.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 19:11, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Isn't there an official list of saints and blessed ones? OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:07, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

There are records of officially-canonized saints, and saints celebrated on the liturgical calendar, but a lot of saints in the early days were automatically considered saints due to martyrdom, or legends that grew around them, without ever having gone through a formal canonization process. Also, the early founders of various local Christian communities were considered "saints" in their local areas without their sainthood being recognized by the larger church (Saint Marinus, after whom San Marino is named, was one). AnonMoos (talk) 00:21, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I heard of saints, who were never canonized, being revered locally like Niels of Aarhus, but I have never heard of an unrecognized Blessed.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 19:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Was Sancha beatified or not?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 19:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

December 3

Fasting on 13, 14 and/or 15 day of lunar month if falls on Friday

Prophet Muhammad said that you don't fast on Fridays but what happens if the 13th, 14th or 15th day of the lunar month falls on Friday, do we fast on those days or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I note you say "we" in your question. I think you need to talk to your imam and get his advice about fasting, as it may vary from sect to sect, community to community. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:32, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

This article addresses your question, but Tammy is right that you might want to ask your imam. Marco polo (talk) 14:54, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

days of shawwal to fast

Which days of Shawwal (e.g. 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7, etc.) do Muslims fast on after Ramadhan because I was told that they don't fast on the day that immediately comes after Eid ul Fitr? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 01:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Our article Shawwal seems to do a decent job of answering this. Some begin the day after Eid but not all do and there's no consensus on whether the days even need to be consecutive although most appear to think they don't need to be. The linked source doesn't work but it's easy to find sources discussing this with a simple internet search for 'shawwal fasting' . In terms of the day after Eid ul Fitr as you can see from the earlier sources most only seem mention the day itself, which comments on the forbidden days does the same as does which specifically mentions they have no evidence of it being forbidden to fast the day after. Some sources mention two days , but if you read them carefull they are referring to Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha. Most interpretations also seem to agree fasting during Shawwal (or the 6 extra days) isn't wajib/obligatory so I'm not sure what percentage of Muslims actually observe the practice. Nil Einne (talk) 11:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

error in article on German census?

Greetings,

 While perusing the census dates map in this article;

http://en.wikipedia.org/Census_in_Germany

I noticed that it seems to imply that the US hasn't had a census since 2004. I was under the distinct impression that I had responded to one in 2010. Am I reading the map wrong? Color confusion? 108.249.33.21 (talk) 07:39, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The map was first created in 2008, and probably was just never updated to show the US census. StuRat (talk) 07:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I've fixed the map labels to address the error. Unless they are committed to updating articles at least once a year, Misplaced Pages contributors really should not use words such as "since" or open-ended prepositions such as "after". The present will be the past. Marco polo (talk) 14:45, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I reverted your changes as they made the situation arguably worse. If you look at the history of the map, people have been updating it since after 2008 (I'm not sure how StuRat missed this)(sorry StuRat misread your comment based on Marco polo's changes). I updated the US (at least I think I did, I initially missed out Alaksa). In truth I'm pretty sure the map is a mishmash of updated and non updated countries, e.g. it sounds like it hasn't been updated for the 2011 EU census. But clearly saying before 2008 is misleading when some of them are censuses after 2008 and the most recent one before was before 2005. It may be best to make a new copy (the map is used in other wikipedias so reverting in situ may be a bad idea) and leave it at a map which is hopefully accurate for 2008 and wait until someone updates it entirely for a new time period (say 2009-2012). In fact if someone plans to update it entirely, it may be better to start from scratch for a new version using SVG which should be easier to update if designed properly. The alternative is simply to remove it from our article, it's rather strange having it in the German census article, I think this arose because it originated from the German wikipedia but I'm not sure (didn't check properly). It would make more sense in the census article or something similar. Nil Einne (talk) 15:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

If the map cannot have accurate labels, then it cannot be accurate. The map is clearly inaccurate in suggesting that the United States has not had a census since 2004. We should not be displaying inaccurate media in articles. Unless the map can be made accurate for some date (whether that date is 2008 or 2012), it should be deleted. I am posting this here, since the discussion started here, but I will also post this on the article's Talk page. Please let me know if you see any reason why an inaccurate map should not be deleted from an article. Unless someone is able to update the map to make it fully accurate, I intend to delete it. Marco polo (talk) 16:21, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Oops, so sorry. I missed your comment that you had updated the US as displayed on the map, and also missed the updated map in the article because I didn't refresh the article in my browser. As far as I can tell, the map is now accurate. Thanks, Nil Einne! Marco polo (talk) 16:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should keep that map. If we do so, we are committing ourselves to update it every time any nation on Earth does a census. That's a bit much to ask of us, especially since it's only used (in wikipedia.en) for the German census article, and not needed there. I'd remove it from our article and "cut it loose". If other Wikipedias want to maintain it and use it, that's up to them.

I also can't stand the colors used in that map. With only 5 colors, they ought to be able to find colors more different than the ones used.

If we do have a real need for that info, say in our general census article, then I'd present the data as a table, instead. This allows anyone to update it, not just the few who know how to update pics. (Even better, if we have the technology, would be if we could have a map which is automatically generated from a table, so anyone can update the map, too.) StuRat (talk) 17:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Of all geographical misconceptions...

Why on earth do so many people think that Africa is a Sovereign State? Legolover26 (talk) 15:45, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

What makes you think "so many people" do? --Viennese Waltz 15:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I have met "so many people" who in conversation have implied that Africa is a country. And in my experience, probably more people I meet who are talking about Africa call it a country and not a continent. Legolover26 (talk) 15:53, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Simple ignorance. I bet even more people think that America is country too. Ah,.. even Misplaced Pages thinks it might be a country! Oh well.--Shantavira| 16:07, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

You must be in the United States. Ignorance of geography is widespread in the United States. I think it is just an aspect of American culture. Many Americans are not interested in the geography of places they don't intend to visit, most Americans never leave the country, and they aren't required to know world geography to finish school. Most don't really care if Africa is a country or a continent. They may assume it is a country because they don't know any African countries. American news sources often compound this misconception by giving "Africa" as the location of an event, rather than the name of the specific country as they would do for events in Europe, Asia, or even Latin America (though sometimes Latin America is reduced to Mexico, Central America, and South America). Marco polo (talk) 16:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

As for America, we've been through this on this desk before, but America is an accepted English-language short-form name for the United States of America. It is analogous to the use of Britain for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In ordinary English, short forms such as these are permissible. The correct English term referring collectively to North and South America is not America but the Americas. Marco polo (talk) 16:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I haven't seen a recent one, but this story indicates that the amount of geographic ignorance, especially in the United States, is immense. (Which makes it a favorite topic for the Jaywalking segment on the Tonight Show.) Over 90% of respondents age 18-24 could not find Afghanistan on a map of Asia in a 2006 Roper poll. I suspect that those who think that Africa's a country might not be able to identify it on a world map, either. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:14, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It's widely rumoured that 20% of USAmericans can't even find the US on a map as highlighted in a rather infamous video with Caitlin Upton an arguably worse statistic* then the inability of 90% to find Afghanistan. However the claim appears to be in doubt. An actual figure for young Americans is 6% can't . * = It's obviously a lot lower, but it's their own country and not particularly hard to find. Nil .Einne (talk) 16:52, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

• This is a reference desk, not an internet forum for bashing stupid Americans any more than it would be for linking to stories about arrogant Europeans or whatever. μηδείς (talk) 17:44, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

This question is a loaded one. I don't believe many people think that. Equally, I don't believe many Americans are more ignorant about geography than in other countries. Obviously everyone knows the geography of his own area what implies that European will know about more countries than Americans or Australians. OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not bashing if it's true.... At least it looks like it was a few years ago, the most recent timepoint I could find data for in a quick search. See for instance these stories from 2006 and 2002. The relevant quote from 2006, discussing the 2002 study reads: "The 2002 project also surveyed 18- to 24-year-olds in Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Sweden, and Great Britain. The U.S. trailed every other country in that survey, except Mexico, which did only slightly worse." Other sources for this include the BBC and CNN. These studies included questions that were world-wide, so Europeans would not have had an unfair avantange, and that would also not be the case for Japan. Now, this was what I found after a 2 min search, and I stand to be corrected if someone else digs out sources showing the opposite, but don't call something bashing if there is data suggesting otherwise. EDIT:I've just seen that this story is already linked to above, poor reading on my part. Fgf10 (talk) 18:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

That's not all that bad, it just puts the US 7th of 8 nations with high education standards. Presumably, if you included all the third world nations, the US will beat most of them. It's not great news for the US, but not horrible, either. And probably everyone agrees there are more important things to know, like how to read. StuRat (talk) 18:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Right, because all those people in Europe who know the map better than Americans also don't know how to read... --Jayron32 19:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

As for why people might think that about Africa, particularly, it's due to it having a large number of nations, most of which have little international influence. Asia also has a large number of nations, but some are quite influential, like China, Japan, and Russia. The same is true of Europe and North America. South America is somewhat similar to Africa, in that no one nation stands out above the rest, although perhaps Brazil does. Australia only has one nation, and Antarctica none, so those are simple. StuRat (talk) 18:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry no reference, but I recall that after the 2008 U.S. Presidential election some advisors of John McCain claimed that his choice for vice president, Sarah Palin, thought that Africa was a sovereign country. Based on that, it wouldn't surprise me if a substantial fraction of Americans think that too. Incidentally, I've always assumed Jay Leno's Jaywalking segment is scripted -- that they tell the passerby what to say if he wants to be seen on the Tonight Show.Duoduoduo (talk) 19:07, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Then there's the fact that that there are Italian Americans, Irish Americans, German Americans ... and lots of African Americans. The first three are countries, so ... Add that to what Marco Polo said about news events often being described as occurring in "Africa" rather than Lesotho or Chad or Ghana or wherever, and hey presto. But it must go deeper than that. If the news sources don't specify the country, it must be because either (a) they neither know nor care, or (b) they think their audience would neither know nor care - and that says a lot about what people are taught, and what they're taught to be interested in. Do kids collect stamps anymore? There's no better way of learning about foreign countries and a smattering of foreign languages than acquiring a pile of assorted international stamps and having to work out where they're from and discover whether those countries even exist anymore, and if not, what ever happened to them. Fiume, Trucial States, Ubangi-Chari, Cochin China and so on - I would never have heard of these defunct places had I not been a committed philatelist in my younger days. Same goes for an interest in coins and flags and maps. They reveal so much about the world we live in, and they're all related, vexillocartophilatelonumismatologically speaking. -- Jack of Oz 19:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Geez, Jack, are you sure you want to admit to having committed philately on a public forum like this ? :-) StuRat (talk) 19:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

To Medeis, I am an American myself and did not mean to "bash" my countrymen and -women. I don't think acknowledging a weakness is the same as bashing. And the problem is not exclusive to the United States. A few years ago in Tanzania, I had to explain to a young Tanzanian that the United States was not in Europe. Marco polo (talk) 19:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

My visiting Australian cousins were amused to be asked (more than once) if they would be "going to Europe" while they were staying in England. Quite right too - Europe is that funny place on the wrong side of the Channel. Alansplodge (talk) 21:09, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

"FOG IN CHANNEL, CONTINENT CUT OFF"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 03:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Americans have the National Geographic Bee. See National Geographic Bee - National Geographic.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Ignorance about the cultural and historical differences of countries in a region doesn't only affect Africa, but in the Western mindset is still a special case. The percentage of Americans or Europeans who would attribute anything as "typically Togolese" or "typically Namibian" would be extremely small, whereas quite a few people would at least cough up a few stereotypes about Brazilian samba and football, Inca ruins in Peru, Mexican enchiladas and tequila and Cuban salsa and revolution. Likewise quite a few Americans would associate Switzerland with cheese and banks, France with wine and rude waiters, Spain with bullfights, etc., and quite a few Europeans would be quite well versed in knowing something about the cultural differences between New York and Texas. I think the assumption of Africa as a big homogenous bloc has somewhat to do with the whole Berlin Conference thing, compounded with general racist stereotypes.

The fact that the borders of Africa were drawn in Europe, cutting across linguistic, ethnic and religious communities, led many people to assume that nationality would be secondary to Africans. However, this shows a quite weak understanding of the relationship between citizenship and nationality. Over the decades of independence, national cultures and national polities have developed in Africa, whereby people do identify strongly with their nationality, and whereby some cultural features of some of the ethnic and linguistic groups of the country become identified as the mainstream culture. The case how Wollof developed as the de facto national language of Senegal or how the ivoirité idea developed in the Ivory Coast are a clear indications of this, but other examples can be found across the continent.

To some extent, pan-Africanists and civil rights activists are to blame for this. In the African diaspora, there have been many attempts to focus on racial identity (relevant as the discrimination in the US was on racial grounds, and the fact that most African Americans had completely lost their original language, religion and ethnic identity) as opposed to parochialisms of language and ethnicity. The creation of African American identity sought to unify all people of African descent also portrayed Africa as a quite homogenous place, thereby stressing the links between the diaspora and an imagined mystical heimat. A clear example is the usage of Swahili words in Black activism in the US, in spite the fact that the African American population is overwhelmingly of West African descent. --Soman (talk) 08:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Excellent points. When we say Irish-American, Italian-American or African-American, they all sound like country names. It occurs to me that the fact that it's a news item when somebody gets it wrong, suggests that it's the exception rather than the rule. (At least I hope so.) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 09:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Soman gives an excellent answer here. Very well explained and quite wonderful. Thanks for that! --Jayron32 13:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! --Soman (talk) 20:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. A comment from the UK here - I think we may be a little bit better informed, partly because of our colonial history - so that most people know that Nigeria is a different country from Kenya, is a different country from South Africa, is a different country from Uganda, etc.; and partly perhaps because of sports - we're conscious of athletes from Ethiopia, footballers from Cameroun and Ivory Coast, etc., perhaps to a greater degree than those of you in the US. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the Western as more ignorant towards geography than the others. However, depending on the origin, people don't tend to see or even know that there is a difference between citizenship and nationality. They both tend to be the same in America and in Europe. OsmanRF34 (talk) 14:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

What frustrates me in this area of knowledge is people who are ignorant about their ignorance. I know that Africa isn't a country, but I couldn't, with any confidence, name all the countries within Africa, nor pick all of them out on a map showing borders but not names. I would get maybe half of them right. But I KNOW that's the limit of my knowledge. People who are confident to declare that Africa is a country are showing a double level of ignorance, and it annoys the crap out of me. HiLo48 (talk) 15:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe there are many people who believe Africa to be a country. It has become an Internet meme, once Sarah Palin asked if South Africa is also part of the country. Maybe she thought that there's a country called Africa (like the continent), and a South Africa, which is not a part of it, on the South. Who knows. OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:42, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think that if you asked people in the United States "To the best of your knowledge, is Africa one of the countries of the world?" I think the number who answer "yes" would exceed the number who answer "no". Marco polo (talk) 16:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Possible. But until your assumption gets corroborated by facts, it's only speculation. Although I don't deny that some people will get confused here. They are probably thinking since America is a country and a continent, and South America and South Africa are both countries, then there could be a country called Africa somewhere. 17:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by OsmanRF34 (talk • contribs)

Hold on... when did South America become a country? (Isn't it a was a colony of West Europe... or is it independent now?).

This reminds me of an entry I saw in an early twentieth-century directory from (what is now) Belarus: "Winnipeg, Manitomba , Africa". הסרפד (Hasirpad) 03:46, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

That should have pride of place on the bookshelf alongside English As She Is Spoke. -- Jack of Oz 22:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

1918 influenza epidemic in Tahiti

How many people died during the 1918 influenza epidemic in Tahiti? What is a good and detail account (books, newspaper, etc) about the event? I just know a lot of the Tahitian royals and chiefs died during this year because of it. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:39, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you aware that this was a worldwide event? Have you looked at 1918 flu pandemic? Looie496 (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Third hit in a Google search for tahiti flu epidemic points there, too... --jpgordon 19:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The search is complicated because of a severe outbreak on a troopship called the HMNZ Tahiti. However, I found The Mercury (Hobart, Tasmania: Friday 27 December 1918. INFLUENZA EPIDEMIC - THE OUTBREAK IN TAHITI. SEVENTH OF PEOPLE DEAD.. The Pacific Islands: Environment & Society edited by Moshe Rapaport (p.258) quotes figures in terms of increased death rate. Finally, The New York Times: TAHITI BUILDS PYRES OF INFLUENZA DEAD; Seventh of Papeete's Population Succumbs and Bodies Feed Steady Fires. Alansplodge (talk) 13:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I've been moved to write an article about the abovementioned RMS Tahiti which was quite an unlucky ship. Beached by an earthquake in Jamaica (1907), one of the worst single flu outbreaks ever recorded (1918), ran down a ferry in Sydney Harbour killing 40 (1927), and finally sank herself when her own prop shaft smashed a big hole in the stern (1930). Alansplodge (talk) 18:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Do we know any death tolls from the epidemic specifically in Tahiti?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

At least 14% of the Tahitian population died as a result of the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic. Google it. I tried posting a link to the website source but for same reason Misplaced Pages wouldn't allow me to do this. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

public access to criminal records

Does anyone know how one might go about getting the arrest or other court records of Hector Camacho from Florida or Mississippi? (I am interested in confirming his legal name.) Or whether such records are generally available to the public from the state on line? My searches all lead to pay sites that offer information like unlisted phone numbers and so forth. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 17:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

There are pay sites that include criminal records, aliases, etc. They may be public records, but this doesn't mean they are made available online for free. StuRat (talk) 17:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

What makes you think that Héctor Luís Camacho Matías was not his legal name? OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

What I want to confirm is if he was ever referred to as Héctor Luís Camacho Sr. (It's unlikely the matronymic Matías will be used in American legal records.) Our article says that senior is his father's title. But the German article has the dead boxer's article named Hector Camacho Senior. Except for boxingscene, which I believe is a wiki, and is certainly not a reliable source, I have not seen Camacho referred to as senior in a good source. μηδείς (talk) 19:01, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Presumably he added the title "Senior" only after having a son with the same name. StuRat (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you can appropriate the title like that. If his father was 'senior' as implied above, surely he would be 'junior' and his son would be 'the third'? Calling himself 'senior' as well would surely cause ambiguity with his father? – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 04:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Not if his father was dead by then. StuRat (talk) 05:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

You have to find out what specific court he went to proceedings in, and then visit that court's website or call the court directly to find out how documents are accessed. Some courts put the records online, and others must be visited in person. Even in criminal cases for adults, however, certain documents may be sealed from the general public. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The grandfather and grandson are still alive. I saw a caption in a video interviewing the grandfather which referred to him as senior, but haven't been able to find it again. Of course the titles don't change after death. John Smith III doesn't become John Smith II or Junior when his grandfather dies. I am hoping any court records will specify the title to differentiate him from his relatives of the same name. μηδείς (talk) 17:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

M. Brun

Who was the Protestant pastor of Tahiti by the name of M. Brun during the 1880s? I am getting a person by the name of Prosper Brun or Le Brun, which one is it? A full name, some dates and details will be helpful.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:59, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Everything I’ve found is Prosper Brun, who was posted in Tahiti/Moorea from 1872 to 1900 per this book (page 90 gives the dates). Portraits of him and his wife are catalogued here and here. He’s also mentioned here, page 48 and the initial P is further confirmed in the listings here, p 136 and here, p 203. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 14:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

In case this isn't obvious, one use of "M." is as the abbreviation of Monsieur (as in "The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar"). Deor (talk) 17:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Name of a famous company

This question is part of which famous company’s interview process 'If your flight got cancelled, and you were stuck in the airport for a few hours with this guy or this girl, how happy would you be about that?' What name is given to it? please help me with this...Thanks in advance! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linkinfloyd (talk • contribs) 23:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe you're referring to the Airport Test interview question. It's used by many companies. – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 05:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

What's that supposed to test? How flexible you are to change or unexpected consequences? Dismas| 10:15, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

That seems like a reasonable assumption. "How do you handle the unexpected?" There's probably no "right" answer, but it's an indicator. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems that the Airport Test is not only a brain teaser. The Airport Test (How to Ace that Interview) suggests that it can also be a sort of filter used by the prospective employer, to weed out the boring or intolerable applicants. The Student Branding Blog - Interviewing: the Airport Test supports that usage; the interviewer wants to find out "if my colleagues had to spend hours at the airport with me, would I be someone that they would want to engage with?" IBankingFAQ... become an investment banker says "The primary use of fit questions is for the interviewer to make an assessment of whether you have the right attitude and skill-set to be a successful investment banker. Most importantly, interviewers will want to understand why you want to be a banker and whether you are someone they would want working FOR them. The secondary purpose of fit questions is to assess whether you are someone they would want to work WITH. Some refer to this is the airport test. How would they feel if they were stuck in an airport with you for 4 hours?" Alansplodge (talk) 13:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

December 4

staple food

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, first president of Bangladesh said that the staple food of the Bengali people were rice, Hilsa fish and lentil soup. Is there a list of a nation's or an ethnic groups' staple food? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 02:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages article titled Staple food is a good place to start. --Jayron32 02:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

And Bengali cuisine and Bangladeshi cuisine. Bangladeshi cuisine has a "Cuisine" infobox at the very bottom of the page that will link you to a long list of other national cuisines. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 13:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Gates, Jobs, Dell and Zuckerberg

Has any of the companies of the drop-outs above tried to attract drop-outs? OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Why would they? --Jayron32 13:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Why? Maybe because they recognize some quality in their founders? At least, were they more flexible towards drop-outs? OsmanRF34 (talk) 13:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The question is unanswerable. Any company will want to attract the best people to work for them. That means taking a holistic view of the candidates' work history, academic record, etc. These four companies are no exception. --Viennese Waltz 13:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, that presumes that the HR departments of those companies takes direct influence from their founders. Possible, I suppose, but not necessarily guaranteed. I checked, just because references are nice here, some random jobs listed on Apple's Website: . Not every job, of course, has a college degree as a requirements, but every one I would have expected such a requirement has such a requirement. That is, I don't see any difference in job requirements at Apple regarding the need for a college degree in certain jobs than I would expect at any company. --Jayron32 13:46, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

You should probably qualify "drop-outs". If you mean those who graduated high school, but dropped out of college, then probably, yes. If you mean those who completed a GED instead of high school, then perhaps. If you mean those who dropped out of high school and never got a GED, then probably, no. Also, you might find artistic companies to value those who don't fit into the academic world more, say to be fashion designers. StuRat (talk) 21:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Can Michael J. Fox vote in both the U.S. and Canada?

Considering he has the two citizenships?. Thank you. Keeeith (talk) 15:14, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2012_November_8#Are_people_such_as_Michael_J._Fox.2C_Jim_Carrey_allowed_to_vote_in_both_Canada_and_the_U.S..3F OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I read that but couldn't understand whether or not they are allowed to vote or not. I mean, if they were out of Canada for how long they are not able to vote anymore even if they still have Canadian citizenship? or what? Keeeith (talk) 15:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It would help if you clarify what parts of Vmenkov answer confuses you or doesn't answer your question as to me it seems it does. Nil Einne (talk) 15:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The last post in that archived discussion says:

Any Canadian citizen living abroad can vote in Canadian federal elections, provided s/he has lived outside of Canada for less than 5 consecutive years, and s/he intends to return to Canada. Having also a foreign citizenship is not a factor per se. (Of course, if the person's foreign citizenship is acquired by naturalization in a foreign country, it probably means that he's spent too long outside of Canada to be eligible to vote anymore). -- Vmenkov (talk) 01:34, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

In particular, provided s/he has lived outside of Canada for less than 5 consecutive years, and s/he intends to return to Canada. Having also a foreign citizenship is not a factor per se. I'd look in the given link for confirmation and elaboration. Duoduoduo (talk) 15:57, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes as mentioned Vmenkov's answer seems to answer the question (and it's supported by the ref and also another official ref ) so it would help if Keeeith clarifies what part still confuses them. The only possible issue of contention I can see is there may be doubt of what happens if you just go back to Canada for a short stay. Per this source it sounds like the current intepretation is you actually have to been considered to have 'lived' in Canada, simply visiting is likely not enough. Although it's a still a bit unclear to me how long you have to have been in Canada to be considered to have lived there again. And it's peossible they may be able to vote in person even if they are not really living in Canada any more, see also . Based on that letter, it's possible if you are considered to have established residence as would be the case if you wanted to vote in a new riding, that is enough to be considered to have lived in Canada. On ther other hand per , it's somewhat unclear to me whether you will be considered to have established residence if you are say, living in some part of Canada for 3 months or even a year but completely intend to leave. (Even though if you're living continously in Canada for over 183 in a tax year, you'll likely have established tax residency for that year no matter your plans.) Nil Einne (talk) 16:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Although I have no specific knowledge of Canadian law, as a permanent resident of Hong Kong, and a US citizen, I am entitled to vote (or, stand for office) in both places. Note that HK doesn't require citizenship for voting and for some official offices. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

• It;s regularly related in the NYC press that certain large local minorities participate in their homeland's elections, for example, Dominicans. μηδείς (talk) 03:34, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Question regarding citizenships

My questions are, does a person have to give up his Canadian citizenship in order to become an American citizen too?, and my other question is the same but if an Australian citizen becomes American. Keeeith (talk) 16:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

See the US State Dept page on dual citizenship. Specifically:

"A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."

So, no, not as a general rule. — Lomn 16:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, I am a stupid person, there are at least two examples of both citizenships, Michael J. Fox himself and Jim Carrey. It's okay with Canada, it's allowed to hold both citizenships. But what about Australia, does anybody know? Keeeith (talk) 16:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Our Multiple citizenship article isn't great, but it does cover Australia with references. I suggest you check out the article or do a simple search if you have more questions of this nature since they are generally very easy to find. Nil Einne (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, though it's comparatively recent, per Australia's Dept of Immigration and Citizenship. So Canada, Australia, and the US all allow mutual dual citizenship in the general case, but specific circumstances may vary (and Misplaced Pages is not a suitable venue for determining those legal specifics). — Lomn 16:57, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I think you're partially mistaken. The reference only says Australians taking on another citizenship lost their Australian citizenship before 2002. This would suggest it was possible for Australians to have dual citizenship for example if they acquired their Australian citizenship after their other citizenship (American in this case) or possibly if they acquired both at birth. Our article seems to support Australian nationality law#Dual Citizenship this. Nil Einne (talk) 15:18, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

A Poem

Poem: "a place in missouri called the ozarks"

author: not sure — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.42.254 (talk) 19:24, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

You might try looking here to see if it jogs your memory. Duoduoduo (talk) 21:09, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Governor General of Canada

I sent an e-mail to his office and I received an automatic response telling me that I will get a response within three weeks. My worries come about that I now see the calendar and see that part of the three weeks falls into the winter break. Is there personnel on breaks too? I would appreciate your help. Thank you. Keeeith (talk) 20:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It may be understood as "three working weeks" - not 21 days on the calendar, but 15 working days. See if the GG's office has a website that announces their schedule for the winter holiday season. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Government offices in Canada don't shut down completely for the holiday season. They just do not work on the three statutory holidays (Christmas, Boxing Day and New Year's Day - with all three holidays being moved to the next weekday should they fall on a week-end). Offices are short-staffed during those periods, however, so routine and non-urgent work tends to get pushed aside until January 2nd. --Xuxl (talk) 15:49, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Mona Lisa Interpretation

I felt there were things left to be noticed in the photos available on Wikipedia_Mona Lisa Mona Lisa Close Up pics

a) There is a drop of sweat on left side of her nose, near her eyes. She did not remove it shows chances of her behaving in an abnormal way because a person doing something unnatural has higher chances of missing natural tendencies. b) There is a mole on right side of her eyebrows. c) Her posture is a little bend forward. d) Her hands seem in an uncomfortable position.

      i) Her left hand bend and holding table showing anxiety or avoidance of showing nails.
      ii) Her right hand's index finger a greater than normal distance apart indicating she might be scratching her left hand.
      iii) Her right hand placed on left in a way that its hiding something.

e) Her eyes are reddish which could be pain or anger. f) Her eyes were sad when drawn as seen by the curve they make. g) Her face seems older than what Leonardo da Vinci made of her can be understood by observing her torso fat or may be its also possible that Da Vinci had to draw her her torso bigger than what it was just to please the person for whom he made the portrait. h) Her face looks like a man when seen from extreme right and extreme left. i) Her guarnello (the transparent cover) is seen mainly on her right side and its dirty near hairs. j) The background though looks similar shows extremities may be indicative of two phases of her lives. k) The photo is definitely a part of something whole. l) In a whole the painter drew something not present in front of her but rather the better version of her. m) The left bottom side of background looks like an old man when seen by turning photo 90 degree clockwise. May be a sign of Da Vinci.

Harsh Dalmia 14.139.241.89 (talk) 20:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.139.241.89 (talk) 20:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm skeptical of most of that, but are you aware that portrait painting required the subject to hold a constant posture for many hours? It was pretty stressful. Looie496 (talk) 02:34, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Hey folks, this is not the place to be getting into an OR discussion about this. -- Jack of Oz 02:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

That painting's been around for awhile, so there are liable to be countless websites with opinions on every possible aspect of the painting. Google is your friend. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 11:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

This is a page for asking for factual information, not for airing speculations or starting discussions. You might find some useful sites from Speculation about Mona Lisa and the references therein. --ColinFine (talk) 11:34, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Creative Sales Strategy

What is the term used for selling products that are custom created, typically with images from the customers?...Thanks for the help! Linkinfloyd (talk) 22:02, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

bespoke is a common term, and may be what you're looking for. custom, custom-designed, made-to-order, tailored to the customer (a metaphor, as you are not literally tailoring), customized, special-order, specialty, customer-specific or client-specific, special order, etc etc. There are many terms. why not just google for other people in your sector that do something like that, and use what they do? 178.48.114.143 (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

"Bespoke" isn't a common term for this, at least in the US. StuRat (talk) 22:14, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

"Personalized". There are also terms for other types of personalization, like "monogrammed" or "custom-fit". StuRat (talk) 22:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your inputs..Can you be a little more specific, something to do with images...i'm looking for a term...i tried to google but i didnt get it...Can someone throw some light, please..Thanks for the help! Linkinfloyd (talk) 22:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Try "Personalized photograph X". For example, here are "Personalized photograph guest towels": . StuRat (talk) 17:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

French Taxes

In the November 25, 2012 issue of The Washington Post, on page E4, speaking of John Malkovich, in the third-to-last paragraph of the article, it says: "In 2007, he directed the Zach Helm play 'Good Canary' in Paris. He says he earned 25,000 euros for the job. Punch line: 'My tax bill was 29,000 euros.'" Assuming the facts purveyed are accurate, how is it possible that the taxes you owe on income you receive to the income you receive is on the order of 116%? Peter Michner (talk) 23:57, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

If you get fined because the French IRS thinks you are earning more than you declared, then yes. It is also the case that France has some form of wealth tax, so low earnings doesn't imply low taxes there. OsmanRF34 (talk) 01:08, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

This is also possible in a graduated tax system. Consider a simplified situation where an income up to 10,000 is taxed at 10%, and an income over 10,000 is taxed at 20%:

 Income   Rate   Tax 
 ======   ====   ====
 10,000    10%   1000
 11,000    20%   2200

So, in this case, 1000 more in income causes 1200 more in taxes. Most countries avoid this problem by saying that only the income over 10000 is taxable at the higher rate and/or by having more gradations. I have run into such a situation, myself, though. In my case, they had a "luxury tax" on suits, so that any suit over $100 had to pay the tax. However, by buying the pants and jacket separately, I was able to avoid that limit. StuRat (talk) 01:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

StuRat, your arithmetic above illustrates a common misunderstanding of how such systems usually work (I do not claim always). In most jurisdictions (such as the UK) you would pay, on the 11,000, 10% of the 10,000 plus 20% of the 1,000 above the 10,000 threshold, totalling 1,200.

From my dim memories of such alleged situations (taxes exceeding income) applying to rock bands in the '70s, taxes exceeding income often arose from a confusion between gross and net earnings and which various taxes applied to, the years in which income was earned, confusions about exactly where in an international operation various incomes were earned and where they should be taxed (still a very live issue, as mentioned in our Starbucks article, Section 8.9), and dishonest accountants and other managerial entities ripping off and lying to the artists concerned. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 13:54, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I suppose your example is just a fictional one, and that no tax system in the world applies exactly these rates. OsmanRF34 (talk) 01:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

There is nowhere on Earth where the normal situation is that you owe more in taxes compared to what you earn, unless you are fined for non tax paid or other irregularities. So either Malkovich was fined or his statement is not accurate (or his statement was reported inaccurately). --Saddhiyama (talk) 01:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Saddhiyama -- mid-20th century British "death duties" or inheritance taxes could often result in tax liabilities significantly beyond annual income... AnonMoos (talk) 04:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The expression "my tax bill" could still be accurate. His "tax bill" could consist of money he owes as taxes, and money he owes as a fine. To him, it's all "tax", because it may as well be. -- Jack of Oz 02:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

A similar situation existed in the US for those on welfare. Until recently, if they got a minimum wage job, they would lose many of their benefits from "being on the dole" and incur taxes, so their financial situation would worsen, not improve. StuRat (talk) 04:34, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

France definitely has a wealth tax. If you are resident in France, for that tax year, you have to pay tax based on what you own, as well as a tax based on you earn. So if he was very wealthy, he had to pay both. I only ever paid income tax, though, since I was never (and probanbly will never be) wealthy enough to pay the wealth tax. --Lgriot (talk) 08:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Combining wealth taxes with generally high marginal tax rates, which is fairly common in Europe, can easily lead to tax rates higher than 100% of your income. In the 1970s novelist Astrid Lindgren wrote the story Pomperipossa in Monismania complaining about her 102% tax rate, and according to my copy of the Guinness Book of Records, shipping magnate Hilmar Reksten once had to pay 491% of his income in taxes. Gabbe (talk) 08:23, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

In Malkovich's case, it appears his tax rate is merely 65%, which he has refused to pay, saying he has paid his taxes to the American IRS instead. So in 2007 the French demanded more money as a consequence of this play than he earned on it. See and for more details. Gabbe (talk) 10:25, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

(EC with 87 above.) I think StuRat is mistaken about what a graduated tax system means. AFAIK graduated tax system always implies a system with tax brackets. (Note that a graduated tax system is a form of progressive taxation but the terms are not synonymous. You can achieve progressive taxation in various ways besides tax brackets but as stated I believe a graduated tax system always implies a system with tax brackets.) Read the article if you don't know what a tax brackets means, it implies a brackets where you have a cutoff point beyond which the additional income above that value is taxed at a higher rate. I'm not aware if there is a name for the system described by StuRat where an income over a certain rate means an increase in rate for all the income (well with tax brackets the marginal rate increases but in specifics the lower income is still taxed at the lower level). Has any country ever even used such a system? (It isn't uncommon for people to misunderstand tax brackets and think the entire income is taxed at a higher rate if you enter into a different bracket.)

While there may be benefit systems where an increase in income can result in a reduction in money coming in I don't think this is common. AFAIK in most countries the system is designed to avoid that. E.g. here in NZ the issue of concern is generally not that you actually take less money in when you increase your income due to benefit reduction which rarely or never happens, but rather that the extra money you bring in is less some say significantly less then the extra you earn because of the combination of taxes and benefit reduction so there is far less incentive to earn more. This happens because benefits gradually reduce rather then being a case of either you get the full amount or none at all. (Theoretically a wealth tax could also mean a person a person will find they make less money by a higher income presuming said income doesn't increase their spending but from my reading of the article countries tend to use a progressive system starting at zero so avoid this. )

There are of course cases where you are either taxed or not taxed and a small increase in value can result in a sudden possibly large tax bill which would otherwise be due such as the suit example StuRat gave. This may be related to the example he gave of the hypothetical system where rather then using tax brackets a person earning over a certain amount has the entirety of their income taxed at a higher rate. But it's clearly not the same thing as it does not result in a person actually bringing less money in by earning more, as earning doesn't even come in to the picture. One of the effects of such cases is they can encourage people to tax evasion or tax avoidance schemes again as suggested by StuRat with the suit. But note that there can be the same thing even with stuff like a normal graduated taxation system particularly in special cases. E.g. Depending on the brackets, a person who expects to earn a lot less next year or even nothing may wish to find a way to defer about half of their income from this year to next year. Depending on the country and how it's done may or may not be legal but it can result in quite a different tax bill. However again this doesn't mean the person would have got less money because of an increase in income.

Nil Einne (talk) 14:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Note that the system I described is much better if you have more brackets with smaller differences in rates:

 Income   Rate   Tax 
 ======   ====   ====
 10,000   10%    1000
 10,001   10.1%  1010

So, here $1 in extra income increases your tax by $10, so it's 1000% of the additional income. However, we're only talking about $10, so it's not such a concern. It also makes the calculations far simpler, with no need for tax tables (although the chart with the rates can get big, too). StuRat (talk) 17:36, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Two different issues here -- income tax / income > 1 (the extreme issue, apparently misleadingly claimed by Malkovich), and marginal tax / marginal income > 1. As mentioned above, at least in the US the latter issue, of a marginal tax rate greater than one, sometimes comes up for people trying to work their way off public assistance, and for people earning social security and working. I remember back in the 1980s, the West Virginia state income tax system was designed so that at a certain income level, one more dollar would cause your tax to go up by many dollars; I wish I could remember the details, because it struck me that the system must have been designed by amateurs. Also, back in the 1960s and quite possibly more recently than that, I think the marginal US federal income tax rate on the highest income was something like 90%, and if you lived in a high-marginal-tax state your combined marginal rate could be very close to (or even greater than??) 100%. Does Misplaced Pages have anything about the history of US tax brackets? Duoduoduo (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

One could make an interesting set of graphs out of this. --jpgordon 17:10, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. Looks like the highest US income rate was 94% in 1945. Now we have it at 35% and the Republicans claim the economy will collapse if we dare to raise it. StuRat (talk) 17:34, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Reading John Malkovich#Personal life and political views it becomes clear that "Malkovich ... lived and worked in a theater in Southern France ... left France in a dispute over taxes in 2003". Seems he is not a fan of the French tax authorities and I think he might well have been joking in the Washington Post's interview. While France has high tax rates, at no time does it exceed 100% of income (only in 2013 will a rate of 75% on income over €1 million be introduced). Astronaut (talk) 17:26, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

December 5

Does Buddhism teach no fear/ no hope?

At least indirectly, if you live in the present, hope of a future positive outcome or fear of a negative one shouldn't be your top priority. OsmanRF34 (talk) 01:23, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Not sure about Buddhism, but that was pretty much one of the tenets of Stoicism... AnonMoos (talk) 04:12, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Insofar as Buddhism teaches us not to be attached to any particular outcome, and hope or fear regarding outcomes is a mark of attachment, yes. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

So if a Buddhist saw a missile headed straight for him, his reaction might be, "Oh, that's interesting - a missile that looks like it's headed straight for me. Will it hit me? Will it miss me? Only time will tell." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 13:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Only if he were a really good Buddhist, Bugs :-). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 13:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

so, really good Buddhist are deemed to die at any crossroad? OsmanRF34 (talk) 17:23, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

• The whole point of Buddhism is to obtain a positive future outcome (i.e., Nirvana). Looie496 (talk) 17:29, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

But do set your mind on this target? OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Fear and hope are passing illusions, no more. Sang-gye cho-dang tsog-kyi cho-nam-la Jang-chub bar-du dag-ni kyab-su-chi I take refuge in the Buddha, dharma and sangha until enlightenment is reached. That's all. SkylonS (talk) 10:27, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

looking for a song

I remember a song, not sure who sing it or the title, but it had instruments not just singing. any ideas? --91.120.48.242 (talk) 14:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

That is possibly the most vague and unhelpful description of a song imaginable. Can you remember any lyrics at all? Because without that, we have basically no chance of helping you. It would also be useful to know what instruments, time signatures, vocal registers, languages, and musical style(s) were involved. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:59, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes.165.212.189.187 (talk) 16:45, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Try looking in song. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:51, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

See WP:POINT. Looie496 (talk) 17:27, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

musipedia.org lets you search by whistling into the computer. There's an app that identifies songs by listening to a few seconds of it, too. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Someone should add this thread to Misplaced Pages:Unusual requests. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 06:30, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Are there more rooms or people?

Or, how many rooms are in the world? I try to divide the world into richness levels Fermi problem style but I'm still not sure. I'd guess more people, but very dependent on if the poor great majority of humanity has fewer persons per room than I guess. (Now the definition of room itself is fuzzy but I'll at least count basements, attics, rooms on ships, rooms inside infrastructure and bathrooms (except ones the size of closets)) Either way it appears less than you could see per lifetime, flashing a few per second. Another fun over/under I can't decide is which has more volume: everything artificial on Earth or one Independence Day city ship? (, about 50 trillion cubic feet by my reckoning). Probably depens on how far you go with artificial Embankment dams? Reservoirs? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that the Reference desks should not be cluttered with questions like this that are merely whimsical. Looie496 (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The 1st part could be useful as a measure of wealth, although square footage (or square meterage ?) per person might be a better measure than the room count, since it's less subjective. StuRat (talk) 17:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I dunno, rooms works better. There are some rich people in cities whose houses have a lot of rooms, but don't cover much ground; while some lower class farmers in the boonies would have a lot of space, but not really as many rooms. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

In a major city like New York or London I presume that each person has at least one room each (a bedroom), plus other shared space in the same same house, plus a room at their work place or school that they likely have to share with others, plus a room on their way to work (inside a car, bus, train, etc), plus a bathroom they can visit, and a kitchen, etc. However, in some places the poor have to live many to one small room and do everything there. It is hard to say, but I would be surprised if there were a lot less than 7 billion rooms on Earth. Astronaut (talk) 18:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Seems wrong to me to count cars, you can't even stand up in them. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

The Center for Sustainable Systems says there were 4.9 million commercial buildings in the US in 2003. Guesstimate ten times that for the world, and a conservative 20 rooms a building. and we've already at a billion. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:22, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

By doing Fermi style, the answer can varies greatly with the power of 10, so it is probably from 1 to 10 billion rooms in the world.174.20.99.196 (talk) 02:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Why are murder followed by suicide so common in our country?

Artur Carlos de Barros Basto - the name conversation

Why Artur Carlos de Barros Basto, has adepted just the surname Ben Rosh? has he had any link between him to the famous jewish spanish family "Ben arosh"? is there any information about? 95.35.152.34 (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

I have no information about this, but I would observe that many Jews in Britain (and I think elsewhere) use a Hebrew name which is quite different from their everyday name, and in which "ben" introduces not a surname but a patronymic. Two possibilities that present themselves are that his father's name (not given in the article) was something which he felt could be "Hebrewed" as "Rosh", or that he chose "Rosh" (Hebrew for "head") for its associations. --ColinFine (talk) 14:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

December 6

Political Science is always misconceived as law or legalistic in nature.

I am a political science student and my instructor in political science minor subject happens to be an LLB. in law, thus he defined political science as the study of state and government. Luckily I have a professor PhD. in political science who said that political science is not so. This definition is what I argue against, first and foremost with that definition political science appears to be in a legalistic and traditionalistic fashion. I responded that politics does not only refer to the state and government and we should also utilize the modern approaches to the subject such as behaviorism. Because "state and government" will only adhere to the laws, principles, government of the state. It is inadequate in answering all other problems. I argued that political science is a social science different form law, thus political science focuses on the political activity which is not only confined to the state and government such as, international organizations and international relations. Political science does not study law or if it does it is in a social perspective. After this I offered a better definition, that given by David Easton- A study of the authoritative distribution of power, this is the safest and one of the most suitable definition ever made. I also offered a revision to his response by adding the term politics which refers to the social activity related to authority.

I really want to know additional arguments to support my assertion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshua Atienza (talk • contribs) 01:22, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

You seem to be referring to Political_science#Behavioral_revolution_and_new_institutionalism. Ultimately, political science is what you define it to be. Words and phrases have the meaning we assign to them. In the case of political science, some researchers, especially in the past, really did define it as nothing more than the study of state and government by looking at institutions and laws. Other researchers, especially recently, take your sort of broader view of political science. But to say that one of these definitions is "wrong" is plain stupid. Saying that coke is a drug not wrong just because it's also a soft drink. You might reasonably call the simple definition of political science unpopular, inferior, or archaic - but not wrong. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:40, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

You might do well to also look into Political anthropology. Though sadly our article isn't as good as it could be, some of the sources cited might be of benefit - and your definition "a study of the authoritative distribution of power" would fit in well with the remit of political anthropology too - especially given its forays into contexts where there was apparently no 'state', 'government' or 'law' (or at least, not in the sense that such terms are commonly used). In this context, 'political science' arguably resides somewhere between the social sciences and the humanities as an academic field - and certainly has little to do with any legalistic definition. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:56, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Political science means a lot of things--the article political science gives an overview. The part about descriptively studying behaviors of populations includes rational choice theory and behavioral economics among other things. There are also some normative theories involving psychodynamics. It goes all over the place. 66.127.54.40 (talk) 02:12, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

"Political science" (πολιτικῆ ἐπιστήμη) was a term used by Plato in his Statesman. Aristotle takes it up (and some of the material there) more famously in his Politics. It referred to what is best called political philosophy now. And "political science" was largely within the mold of Plato and Aristotle (see Cicero's De re publica, Augustine's City of God, and Aquinas' Treatise on Law) until Machiavelli. David Easton's definition accurately describes what Machiavelli started to do: describe the ways political power is and can be distributed. Machiavelli is commonly considered the father of modern political science (you see this emphasized by Strauss and his followers, for example); so then insofar as contemporary political science still follows Machiavelli, Easton's definition would seem to be fine. But I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss your instructor's definition. He may have meant more by "state" and "government" then you might realize. He also may never have meant his definition to be comprehensive; he may have just been describing one part of political science -- the part he was intending to lecture on. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 04:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

List of TIME Magazine's 100 most influential people of the 20th century

That will redirect to this Time 100: The Most Important People of the Century but I don't see any "list" and I couldn't able to find a list of 100 most influential of the 20th century from Time 100 website. First there is a problem with the redirect since there is no list in the article so it is a wrong redirect. Second, can someone show me a list of 100 most influential people of the 20th century in a "trusted website"? Thanks!174.20.99.196 (talk) 02:10, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I think the redirect is ok. The article is not actually a list, so the redirect sends people looking for a list to the non-list article. The time.com link is in the external links section but it is a paywalled article, so non-subscribers can only see a subset of the names. You could probably go to the library and look at the magazine there. 66.127.54.40 (talk) 02:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah... this is an article about the Time magazine list... however, I think that is appropriate. If someone wants to see the list itself, they can follow the links to Time Magazine's website (although they will have to pay to read the entire list) or go to the library and find it for free.

I am not sure if it would be legal for Misplaced Pages to present the entire list ourselves, as doing so might violate Time Magazine's copyright. Blueboar (talk) 02:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Years ago, Misplaced Pages did routinely reproduce such lists (hottest swimsuit models, most eligible bachelors, bravest dogs, hottest milfs). But with reflection the community has decided, in a range of discussions, that such lists aren't like lists of postcodes in Stuttgart or highest points in Albania - that they're creative works (however arbitrary and uninformative) of the editorial staff of various organs, and so we can only quote from them ("Vanity Fair said George Clooney was the hunkiest actor of 2003") but not reproduce the whole list outright. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 02:40, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

To my inexpert legal intuition, that argument seems fairly weak. I might be tempted to argue the point if I thought there were any actual encyclopedic value in these things. --Trovatore (talk) 02:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

The thing is I'm sure there are many curious people who want to see the entire list. I think the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to serve the readers, as many as possible. It is arguable that the list is informative or not.174.20.99.196 (talk) 04:15, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

What justifies providing for-pay information gratis merely because someone (or many people) express a want or need for it? Misplaced Pages does its job by explaining the nature of this information and indicating where it can be obtained. WP does not include all possible information within its virtual covers. ergo, I totally agree with User:Finlay McWalter remark (above). -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

174,20: there are a number of things that people come here looking for (or wanting to create) which Misplaced Pages is not; business directories, articles on their local bands or their favourite websites, for example. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, with policies on what is appropriate for inclusion. --ColinFine (talk) 15:03, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

online payment methods

I am looking into potential methods of sending and recieving money online for my company, looking into such things as google, amazon, popmoney, serve and so on, a wide variety of options. However their websites still leave me uncertain on some details, making a direct comparison difficult, so I am wondering if people with experience in this matter can offer some advice.

I need a service that will allow customers to send me money from all around the world, and for that money to be collected together in my account and sent as a bulk payment to the manufacturer to cover costs of making and shipping the items paid for, any ideas on a service that can provide this, to a company based in the UK?

86.15.83.223 (talk) 03:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

You can offer several venues. Most methods don't ask for a monthly fee. I think you'll be OK accepting Paypal and credit cards. OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Yep, sounds like you're looking for PayPal. EIN (talk) 16:36, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Was Amenhotep IV Nefertiti 's cousin?

Was Amenhotep IV Nefertiti 's cousin? Venustar84 (talk) 04:30, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

It appears uncertain; her ancestry is not well known. --jpgordon 04:51, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

for a debut novelist

a) can an author of fiction novel (debut) seek two or more literary agents (or agencies) for a better deal in domestic (best domestic agent) and international markets (best international agent)? b) is it a wise idea to focus first on domestic market, holding foreign publication rights? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.141.254 (talk) 08:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

While investigating options, expect the agent to present the author with proposed terms and conditions that relate to the domestic/international markets, to be included in a - possibly exclusive - contract the two parties would then sign and fulfill. Perhaps a more productive query here would be: what are the terms and conditions an author can expect a literary agent (independent or publisher's) to fulfill? -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:34, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

A novelist with no publications will be very lucky to find any agent at all. Looie496 (talk) 02:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Scranton

Where is Scranton, New Jersey? Yes, New Jersey! --Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:38, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

If google doesn't know it, it doesn't exist. - Lindert (talk) 13:55, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Scranton (NJT station).--KAVEBEAR (talk) 14:07, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Which is located in Scranton, Pennsylvania... - Lindert (talk) 15:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

nj.com, an agglomeration of New Jersey media sites, returns a reference to Scranton, NJ in zip code 07032. Google returns a map of part of Kearny, NJ for that zip code, so presumably Scranton is a neighborhood there or the like. — Lomn 14:20, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

It's spurious. The only such address is a listing for J Cafferty at 431 Tenth Ave, Scranton, NJ 07032. Doing an advanced search that excludes any results with "431" will not return any hits for Scranton, NJ at all. μηδείς (talk) 17:49, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Aside from pragmatism what other philosophic tradition criticize the usefulness of formal logic?

Continental tradition doesn't directly dismiss formal logic unlike pragmatism, thus it cannot be the same with pragmatism. And if there is Perestroika movement for social sciences perhaps there are also philosophies which criticize mathematical/formal logic like pragmatism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshua Atienza (talk • contribs) 15:03, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for your assertion that pragmatists' position on formal logic? OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Is it wrong to think that the candidate who wins California will likely be the next President?

Thank you. Keeeith (talk) 15:42, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

In the absence of other information, yes, it's an under-informed opinion. --jpgordon 15:56, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't feel like digging through all the past elections for the data, but the answer boils down to 'it won't hurt, but it's not necessary'. The candidate who won California won the election in 2012 and 2008 (Obama); lost in 2004 or 2000 (Bush Jr.); won in 1996 and 1992 (Clinton); won in 1988 (Bush Sr.); won in 1984 and 1980 (Reagan — but everyone voted for Reagan and he was also a California candidate); lost in 1976 (Carter); won in 1972 and 1968 (Nixon)....

To win the necessary majority of the (current) electoral college – 50 percent plus one, or at least 270 of the 538 votes – a prospective candidate either wants to get the 10 percent (55 votes) from California, or needs to have a solid plan to make up for that shortfall. In the last several election cycles, California hasn't been seen as a swing state; neither party has campaigned seriously there, assuming that it would go firmly Democrat. It's also not tagged as a bellwether state; while California probably ends up aligned with the successful candidate more often than not, its 'hit rate' isn't anywhere close to 100%.

As always, past performance is not a guarantee of future returns. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

This xkcd comic explains it well. Matt Deres (talk) 18:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

• California is so Democratic now that it is uninformative about national elections. Every state official and over two thirds of the legislature are Democrats. The chances that California will vote for a Republican are slim. Looie496 (talk) 02:32, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Can someone be a Zionist if he's not a Jew?

I am a Protestant American who strongly supports Israel and its right to exist in God's chosen land for them. Is that considered Zionism?, is there Zionism outside of Judaism? Keeeith (talk) 15:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

See Christian Zionism. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:02, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I don't see why not. After all, there are also quite a few male feminists. - Lindert (talk) 16:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely. Anyone who is in favor of a Jewish state in the Southern Levant is, by definition, a Zionist. Neither ethnicity nor religion is a requirement. Note the difference between ethnic Jewry and the religion of Judaism. EIN (talk) 16:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes I believe that would be Zionism. I hope that's as opposed to the Protestant American sects that want Israel to wage a nuclear war so God's will on Earth is accomplished and the Rapture comes. Dmcq (talk) 16:34, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I commend Keeeith for asking his questions here. They do, at times, seem to be based on some less than completely accurate premises, but as he reads and thinks about more of the answers, his knowledge can only improve. HiLo48 (talk) 17:59, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you pulling my leg? Or you're serious. Keeeith (talk) 18:18, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

• Of relevance. Some non-Abrahamic Canaanites were Zionists, and the Bible doesn't mention them being wiped out (even in the period of Judges). Ian.thomson (talk) 18:22, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Lanihau: Sources on Kauaian History

Who should I contact on the subject of Lanihau, an obscure chiefess from the 1800s, who was the Governess of Kauai from 1886 to 1888. Her name is mentioned in a few newspaper article, which gives nothing about her, and only one sentence in a few books. I have already email the Kauai Historical Society, who else (history professors, authors, museums, etc) is a good source in this subject area (Kauaian history)?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:40, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I'll start: Noenoe Silva is the University of Hawaii's expert on Hawaiian history. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 21:09, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Bible as inerrant/infallible/authoritative/etc.?

OK. I have a couple of questions.

• How many people in the world view the Bible as the inerrant word of God?
• How many people in the world view the Bible as the infallible word of God?
• How many people in the world view the Bible as the authoritative word of God?
• How many people in the world view the Bible as a written record, based on thousand-year traditions and cultural memories, of ancient literature, daily life, and prophecies that still carries a significant impact in people's lives today, without divine intervention?

140.254.226.183 (talk) 19:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

You asked this just over a month ago. It is unlikely that new scholarship has emerged in the meantime, and the problems with nonspecificity in the language of your questions are still there. — Lomn 19:39, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Weren't Nazi party members forced to have at least four children?

Then why such senior Nazi officers like Philipp Bouhler and his wife didn't have any child by 1945 when they both committed suicide and made the World a better place? Keeeith (talk) 19:47, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe your assumption is quite right. Maybe they motivated ethnic Germans to have more children, but how would they (yes, even the Nazi Germany would have a difficult task here) force them to have at least four children? They granted the Cross of Honor of the German Mother to mothers of four or more children, but I don't see any reference of any force or drawback for those who didn't cooperated with the German effort of populating the world with pure Germans. OsmanRF34 (talk) 20:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)ac

See this article, Motherhood in Nazi Germany, which says that the Nazi regime encouraged large families by means of propaganda, tax breaks and support programmes. Birth control advice and contraception were controlled by law and eventually banned altogether. Misplaced Pages has an article on the Cross of Honor of the German Mother, for "mothers who exhibited probity, exemplary motherhood, and who conceived and raised at least four or more children in the role of a parent". Curiously, France has a similar award which is still in use, La Médaille de la Famille française. Alansplodge (talk) 21:06, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

crazy babbling

There is someone near my building (maybe next door) who is angrily ranting about something I can't make any sense of. It's in unaccented English, has some profanity sprinkled in but mostly seems to be about some specific topic, and yet I can't make out more than a few words here or there. There are very few pauses. The person is just babbling nonstop and not making any sense, and (from my nonprofessional perspective) sounds mentally ill. I've seen similar behavior from streetpeople multiple times in the past.

Is there a particular illness associated with this symptom/behavior, or a name for the behavior itself?

Not looking for medical advice as I have no intention of going anywhere near the person. Just wondering if the situation has a name.

66.127.54.40 (talk) 20:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

You might like to read Tic. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Why do some people say Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East?

Isn't Turkey a democracy or isn't it in the Middle East? OsmanRF34 (talk) 20:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I think that Turkey is now considered part of Europe. Keeeith (talk) 21:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Not really. But to the OP: See No true Scotsman for the answer. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:21, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

On the Turkey point specifically Accession of Turkey to the European Union and Middle East (the section that has the 'traditional middle east' and 'greater middle east'). In general see Democracy in the Middle East ny156uk (talk) 21:54, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Because they don't know facts. If there would be a universal definition of democracy, Turkey, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, and/or Yemen might be included in this category. Someone already found the No True Scotsman fallacy, which pertains to this issue. Futurist110 (talk) 01:47, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Propaganda in schools

Do we have an article about a type of propaganda where the state uses the public education to influence the students? For example, by making them study from biased textbooks, or by making them study topics that promote the ruling party (for example, if children had to study "the advantages of communism" in a communist state) Cambalachero (talk) 21:09, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Bias in education. Although it is very short. Searching Misplaced Pages for "biased textbooks" I also found many specifric articles along these lines: Japanese history textbook controversies, Pakistani textbooks controversy, Views_on_the_Arab–Israeli_conflict#Biased_text_books, Saudi Arabian textbook controversy, California textbook controversy over Hindu history, etc. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 21:14, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

There is no doubt that governments have tried to do this in Australia. A read of History wars and National Curriculum (Australia) will give some details. This is mostly to do with the issue of whether the arrival of the British in 1788, and subsequent events, should be described as an invasion or a benevolent colonisation. (OK, so those are the extreme positions.) HiLo48 (talk) 21:31, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

A Kipling short story

Hello Learned Ones ! I'm looking for the title of that short story about a German policeman in the Weimar republic, he tries to enforce law in the social turmoil of those years & I think he is killed ...Thanks beforehand for your help. T;y. Arapaima (talk) 22:36, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

French Admiral Serre

Who was the French Admiral Serre who was in Tahiti in 1877? Like his full name, dates of birth/death/time in Tahiti.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:14, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

New jersey question rephrased: Is there any "safe area" parts of Irvington? I know that city/township has a high crime rate bu does it have any safe areas like parks, beaches, or neighborhoods or schools?

Relatives and Child Support

Have there ever been any cases where a child's grandparent(s) or a child's aunts and/or uncles were forced to pay child support against their will for this child, such as if one of the child's parents died young? If not, are there any laws anywhere that would force grandparents, aunts, and/or uncles to pay child support against their will? Futurist110 (talk) 01:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Gun Selling Question

Do gun dealers legally have the option to avoid selling guns to people if they want to, even if these people pass a background check and the requirements in order to buy a gun? Futurist110 (talk) 01:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

In the United States, with the exception of laws against racial discrimination, any private business owner can refuse to do business with any individual. No one is required to sell you anything. --Jayron32 03:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

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