Misplaced Pages

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"Creature"

This article describing wikipedians as creatures in a dark room might be relevnt to those who participated in the discussion about the comic two days ago in the hello thread. Pass a Method talk 20:48, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I love my old Ikea lamp, myself. :) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:53, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

RE "What If the Great Misplaced Pages 'Revolution' Was Actually a Reversion?" — Please note WP:3RR. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:40, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Fascinating article. Wonder what it portends for WP's future.Thelmadatter (talk) 23:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Sure, it's a nice article. But I can't help but feeling it's nothing new. Just the same stuff that was probably written about encyclopaedias 300 years ago. Formerip (talk) 23:44, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Seems like the article missed an important aspect of Misplaced Pages that print encyclopedias never had. Misplaced Pages is effectively a real-time encyclopedia that rapidly includes new information. --Bob K31416 (talk) 05:50, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll bet no comparable project was ever as beset with wp:vandalism as this one. Bus stop (talk) 13:53, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Verb "wikying"

Jimbo, as you know, there is article "googling" which mentions a Google co-founder saying that word in 1998. Well, with the growing popularity and enthusiasm for Misplaced Pages (Italian WP exceeded 1 million articles), I am wondering if you could use the word "wikying" (from 2005?) in a reliable source, as meaning either to look up topics in Misplaced Pages or to edit articles. I think it would be beneficial for more people to easily say, "I was wikying for more about some subject and found..." or similar easy phrases. Any thoughts or reservations about the word "wikying" (or general verb "wiky")? -Wikid77 (talk) 13:37, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I think you meant "wikify". The meaning of this word is to fit written information to encyclopedic standards. It's sometimes used in templates, dealing with the quality of articles. Galzigler (talk) 17:35, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

He's not referring to wikify, he's referring to the act of looking something up on Misplaced Pages. Ryan Vesey 17:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I've seen the term "wikied" (as in, I wikied it) used in common usage. I don't know that I've heard anyone say wikying or wiky despite the fact that they're all the same verb. Ryan Vesey 17:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Well obviously I can't speak for everyone, but i've personally used "wiki" as in "I'll wiki

At least 20 reliable sources. Why does everyone on this site seem to expect to be spoon-fed everything rather than do any actual work themselves? 84.13.24.42 (talk) 20:53, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

• Checked on "wikying" but more on "wikiing": Okay, thanks for noting the spelling as "wikiing" (or "wiki-ing") because we were checking for the less-common spelling as "wikying" where "wiki" would be a noun and "wiky" would be the verb to search a wiki or edit a wiki. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Arbcom and the community

Hi Jimbo. Seeing as you set up Arbcom in the first place, would you be able to comment on my situation ? I was recently unbanned, and decided after a few months to have a clean start. Arbcom prevented me from doing so outside any normal process, even though there are no restrictions on me. I challenged this unsucessfully. A RfC on the topic of clean starts for previously sanctioned users is overwhelming in favour of my position. In terms of the reasons Arbcom was created, do you think this was within their remit in the first place ? If so, will the passage of the RfC annul the unwritten restrictions on me in the first place ? --Simone 13:57, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I believe that editors not under sanctions are entitled to a clean start; however, as some indicated in the decision, returning to the same problematic behaviors is one thing that can break a clean start according to that policy. I don't see why you shouldn't have a chance to have one, but if you were to go back and do something like Twinkle-nominating 7 articles for deletion as on December 19, well, it wouldn't last long. I was impressed by JClemens' comment in that discussion. (I should reiterate my distaste for those accursed robots - how many cascades of negative emotions on Misplaced Pages can be traced back, ultimately, to the doings of those machines? Our editors shouldn't be John Henry (folklore) trying to argue with a bot that wants to make it easy to delete their work.) Wnt (talk) 16:41, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I have an issue with the idea that there are higher expectations of my conduct than of any other editor in good standing. My deletion nominations are all reasonable, and only a minority of articles I nominate are kept. Simone 11:48, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

It seems true that, as I alluded above, you have become something in a pawn in the larger debate about the role of deletions - how often and how easily things can be nominated and what the standards are for doing so. Wnt (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Thaks for Misplaced Pages! :D

Dennis6492 (talk) 19:17, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Barnstar of Diplomacy

Hi dear Jimbo Wales. Star looks beautiful. For this reason, I've given you. :) You have set up Misplaced Pages. And of course, to get your attention. I do not want to be rude. But on Misplaced Pages, which would have been enough attention to complaints. Maybe there was a lot of work. I trust you. Look here, please: http://makalevar.blogspot.com/ .... The articles is not empty. You or your be assigned to one or a few people ilgilenebilirmi the following situation? Criticizing the blocked. As evidence, there is a very link. You or someone else will answer. Tens of ll give link. These are "evidence of injustice". Even if I wrote you an e-mail. Please take care ... Cano58 (talk) 11:05, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Google Translate, EN: At events are now completely blocked Turkish Misplaced Pages. Turkish Wikipedias disadvantage of these problems. This situation is gradually overflowing beyond Misplaced Pages. --This unsigned article written by: User:Aguzer 20:05, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

IP editors

If you ever decide to leave Misplaced Pages completely (and I certainly hope you do not) perhaps you will leave us a going away present and put us all out of our misery by arbitrarily banning IP editing. Or why just ban it anyway? I know, I know, it is an old and tiresome subject but the pain it inflicts through persistent vandalism that last years, on Administrators, Rollbackers, Bots and editors is getting unbearable. It wears everyone down and the fact is, there is no reason why a person cannot register if they wish to edit on Misplaced Pages. If they are a very important person may be the only exception though I believe they can make some arrangement rather than to IP edit. There is no point to the endless RFC or other avenues. Make it quick and easy. I do not think any good-faith editor would object to the ban on IP editing. Mugginsx (talk) 19:38, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I would. Just the other day, an IP corrected an error in an article I wrote . Ryan Vesey 19:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Wow! So that makes up for IPs like User talk:85.90.91.82 who has been vandalizing for three years under the same IP or the hundreds of others, perhaps thousands who people have to clean up after every day. I am sure someone else would have helped you eventually. Mugginsx (talk) 19:58, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The number one reason we should always continue to allow IP editors is that full time editors are often produced. Had I needed to create an account to make my first edit, I probably never would have started. Ryan Vesey 20:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I cannot conceive of why it would make any difference. It does not seem logical to say that being able to edit anonymously would eventually encourage someone to register. People register for Facebook and Twitter and a thousand other things online. If they wish to discontinue they simply delete their account. I believe it is the same for Misplaced Pages. I mean it is not like one has to give personal financial information. Mugginsx (talk) 20:22, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, there are some other popular sites that allow no-account contributions, notably 4chan. Although perhaps that actually bolsters the argument in favor of mandatory registration. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:33, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

People aren't going to create an account to correct a minor error they see. People create accounts with a) the intent of creating/modifying one specific thing and leaving and b) with the intention of editing at least somewhat actively. Often the first of these are just as disruptive as IP editors, others are productive like Adambrower who created Herbert Greene (Broadway conductor). What people don't create accounts for is to make a simple correction like a spelling fix, or a correction to a minor factual detail. If a user doesn't intend to edit actively, it's not worth the effort. Heck, for really minor things, it's sometimes not worth logging in when you do have an account. My first edit was one of those, and without that edit, I would not have considered creating an account later. On a more humorous note, your comment on financial information is slightly ironic in light of this recent discussion. Ryan Vesey 20:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Count me as another good faith editor opposed to banning IP editing. I see a lot of good work by IPs. Yes, there is a lot of vandalism, but IP editors are also less likely to get involved in edit wars, battleground mentalities and all the other issues registered editors become involved with in addition to vandalism. In fact, now that I think about it, Jimbo, can you ban all registered editors for those reasons? Resolute 20:39, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I cannot remember exactly but I think it took approximately 5 minutes to register. And yes, I had not read that before. I would have to see the statistics to believe that IPs are less likely to get involved in edit wars. The IP vandals may not only because they have already made their statement through vandalism. Yes, I can think of a few registered users with battleground mentalities. There are remedies for these editors. What about the registered user who use IPs as their alter ego? At least we could eliminate that. Mugginsx (talk) 20:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Registered users who use IPs as their alter ego can get caught out, if people with checkuser privileges care to check. So they shouldn't think they are immune. (Some of you know who I'm looking at.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:56, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, and I'm not sure where it fits in the above discussion, but on a subjective level, I am seeing a lot more IP edits that appear to be clued-up former named editors who have simply made a decision to edit constructively as an IP instead of with their account, for some reason. Some say it gives them "freedom" and they don't care about the faux "status" of being a "respected" account. However much sense that makes, these really do appear to be IP editors that are here to edit constructively, really not just former banned editors looking to provoke their former targets (as of course some clued-up IP editors are). This "freedom to edit as an IP" is a fairly interesting development in all this. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:01, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I think there are ways around these deceptions. I have been here too long to believe it can be stopped without an IP ban. I wish it were true but there are too many computer-sophisticated users and they take advantage. Yes, if you have been here long enough, you can figure out who they are but cannot prove it as a user. If it were that easy to stop them, how is it that it still persists along with other kinds of IP vandalism. And to the latest edit, why wouldn't someone want to be regarded as a respected user, if only by themselves? And why would they care what other people think if they are doing the right thing and in compliance with guidelines?Mugginsx (talk) 21:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Because editing an an IP - particularly a dynamic IP - is just as easy as logged-in editing when it comes to making necessary changes, but avoids all your edits being dogged by a posse of disgruntled people with whom you had an disagreement three years ago, and since then have followed your every edit just waiting for you to make a slight slip so they can report you to teacher? Needless to say, I endorse every word Demiurge1000 says above. IP editing also avoids being tied to a watchlist and talkpage - you look at and edit only those pages that happen to interest you that day, without being sucked into the timesink of "I need to reply to this/I need to revert this".84.13.24.42 (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I think IP editors can be a breath of fresh air. The environment of Registered users can be stifling. I think registered users are more likely to be carrying emotional baggage in relation to other registered users. I think this essay, poorly named, at least obliquely refers to one of the pitfalls of the otherwise wholesome concept of "community". Bus stop (talk) 21:30, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

If wikipedia didn't allow for IP editing, most of us wouldn't be editing here. Sure, you might have a small core of dedicated editors plugging away but isn't that the model already followed by britannica? Misplaced Pages thrives when there are more rather than fewer editors and even vandalism plays a role here by keeping us all from dying of boredom. --regentspark (comment) 21:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Since IPs edit in secret, there is absolutely no way of validating how many would or would not edit as a registered user if they had to. The reasons given are counterintuitive and do not speak to the vandalism, secrecy, and dishonestly used by many IPs. The amount of vandalizing edits in any one day would invalidate any of these reasons by virtue of their numbers. They are legion. I could also say that IPs carry more emotional baggage but there is no way of proving that either. These reasons have no basis in fact or logic. I am sorry. Mugginsx (talk) 21:48, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, since I don't understand your conclusions one bit, what I meant above was that many of us would be editing at all because we started out as IP editors. Not sure what that has to do with secrecy or what an IP editor would do as a registered editor. (No need to be sorry. Discussion is a good thing.) --regentspark (comment) 22:08, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, an IP can also hold a grudge, and an IP can also unthinkingly support past allies. This is what I meant by "emotional baggage". But an IP is also free to evolve personally as an editor due to the absence of obvious ties to other identifiable editors. IP editing is the training wheels of registered editing. Bus stop (talk) 21:56, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I have now heard that registered users are rude, leave endless messages on talk pages of other registered users, and have emotional baggage. And the registered users do not speak to this? How very odd. Unfortunately since IPs edit in SECRET all we can say is that they may or may not be vandals, may or may not be uncommitted users or may or may not be users who are, in fact, registered at the same time and up to no good. The vandalism statistics are real - the rest is conjecture. Some of the comments make it sound as if signing up as a registered user is like signing up for Armed Forces. There is no other commitment to signing up except that your edits and your comments are there for all to see and you must abide by the guidelines. If one is well-intended, what possibily could be bad about that? If you make a mistake, there are good administrators who are not bogged down with vandals who can help you. If you are not good, then you are made to be RESPONSIBLE. An IP does not have to answer to anyone or to any guideline. That is what makes it so attractive to some, methinks. Mugginsx (talk) 22:09, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Banning IP editing is not going to happen, but there is a problem that needs serious resourcing and the community should pressure the WMF to spend serious money to reduce the stress. The community should not discuss how developers might help until invited because such discussions always derail the project. Just set up a couple of clever people with a big budget and tell them their job for the next 12 months is to reduce the strain on pissed-off editors and admins. It is beyond absurd that IP-hopping vandals spend years disrupting the community, and when someone says "let's do a big range block for 12 months", the response is always "but that might stop some productive contributions", and nothing is done, again. If the answer from the devs (after spending $100k) is "it can't be done without big range blocks", then that's what should happen. In that case, resourcing should be switched to pressuring ISPs while providing alternatives for productive people behind a blocked IP. Johnuniq (talk) 22:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The nuclear option is banning reading from an entire ISP's netblocks until they agree to remove the biggest problem users from their service or from editing Misplaced Pages. Whether we can discuss that as a serious option or not, I don't know. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:17, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Move to "trusted IP editors" and erase hack edits

You don't have to pay me for solving the problem, which involves promoting IP addresses with 100-200 acceptable edits to a status as "trusted IP editor" where many (most) major pages would be edit-protected, then if an IP editor turns sour, then revoke the trusted status on that IP (or IP range) but not totally blocked, just unable to edit the major articles. Next move to a system of erased edits, where someone could temporarily hack a page and log cute edit-summary comments, but eventually an oversighter would actually erase the edits (database-delete transaction) to completely remove the hack edits and related reverts, until all traces of the problem were gone, except perhaps in separate, hidden log pages for historical purposes. Those steps should solve the problems, so give my "big-budget" payment to your favorite charity. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, something along those lines might be very helpful. But someone (a dev) has to do think it through and do the work, and do it well. There should be tools to apply the levels of IP protection believed appropriate, and tools to monitor progress. Misplaced Pages is a multi-million dollar business and the WMF should take funding from cutsey stuff like article feedback and do something to reduce the stress on good editors and admins. After a while, even a saint thinks "Why should I bother? If someone cleverer than me wants IPs to keep stuffing up the biology articles, why should I fight them?". Johnuniq (talk) 03:38, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Let's look at ip editing from a different perspective

I've been a staunch supporter of "anyone can edit", and so, by extension, of IP editing.

But while reading the above, a couple things occurred to me.

• 1.) Is there anything (and I mean anything - though not someone's guessing, but tangible "this prevents me from making an account") preventing those who edit from an IP to create an account? Noting that accounts (afaik) are free and open to everyone.

• 2.) This is the bigger one for me, and where I might support prohibiting IP editing, depending on the answer: Attribution of edits. As far as I know, wikipedia policy is that editors cannot share accounts. So, any single account should only be used by a single editor. And all edits from that account are attributable to that single person. This is obviously not true of IPs. And this leads me to all sorts of thoughts and concerns, like who should be credited/attributed when re-using an article? If we attribute an IP, are we attributing a particular edit to every user who has ever edited from that IP? And if not, when re-using does the time stamp of the edit need to be attributed too? (Would more than the time stamp be required?)

And from the other side of this, consider that requiring editing from an account would deal with a lot of blocking issues (though of course not all).

IANAL, so I won't claim to understand the ins and outs of licencing, or re-use, etc. But it really does sound like something worth looking into. Especially if there is no reason that people can't merely take a moment and make an account.

I sincerely would like your thoughts about all of this. - jc37 23:40, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Regarding (1), one that immediately springs to mind is that a lot of people—particularly those with high-end userrights—are very reluctant to use public terminals. (When I had CU/OS I'd have been very reluctant to log on on my main account in a library or at work, for instance; all it takes is to accidentally click "remember me" or to forget to log off, and one's handed over reams of sensitive personal data, pedophile porn et al to whoever the next person to wander in happens to be.) By banning IP editing altogether, the WMF would effectively be ordering at the very least all with CU or OS, and probably all admins, either only to edit from a secure home terminal or to create a set of sockpuppets; while there are plenty of such socks about (including User:Iridescent 2) created for just this reason, it's a fudge that goes against the one-user-one-account ideal.

Regarding (2), the relevant parts of the license are "Original Author" means, in the case of a literary or artistic work, the individual, individuals, entity or entities who created the Work or if no individual or entity can be identified, the publisher" and "You must, unless a request has been made pursuant to Section 4(a), keep intact all copyright notices for the Work and provide, reasonable to the medium or means You are utilizing: (i) the name of the Original Author (or pseudonym, if applicable) if supplied" (my emphasis). Under CC3 there's no requirement to attribute where the author can't be identified, which is why the WMF terms of use are careful to include liberal doses of "if possible". "Everything must be attributed" is one of the Misplaced Pages myths that isn't strictly true, along with "anyone can edit". – iridescent 00:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

For #1, that falls under "legitimate sock accounts". It doesn't sound that much different than having a separate account for a bot.

For #2, eeee yy uu cc kk uh. gotta love legalese loopholing...

So what I get from this (and please correct if I am misunderstanding) is that if one edits from an IP, they are essentially making their edits public domain? If so, no wonder no one wants to push to eliminate ip editing.

Though, to me, this reinforces the idea that perhaps we should move to account-only editing. I dunno. I'd like to discuss this more I think. - jc37 01:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

1. "Legitimate sock" is a very controversial fudge to get around the "sometimes I can't use my main account but I don't want to disclose my IP" issue. User:Tony1 should be able to give you all the (many) arguments against it.
2. Blame the people who voted for this change. The old license terms ("List the five most significant authors") were a heck of a lot less confusing, but the first law of Misplaced Pages is that any simple policy is replaced by a complicated policy which can then never be reversed because there's never "consensus" to do so. By editing from an IP you're not making your edits PD—for practical purposes, you're transferring your intellectual property rights to the WMF (since they're the closest thing to an originator that can be identified). – iridescent 01:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll admit right now that I didn't read the full licensing page you linked to, but as I understand it, if your re-use Misplaced Pages information under the GFDL, you need to name the five most significant authors. If you use the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License, you need to link to the history page. There doesn't seem to be any attribution difficulty there. Ryan Vesey 01:39, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Survey of IP editors

I suggest that IP editors be invited, as an exclusive group, to participate in a survey with questions such as these.

• When did you first edit Misplaced Pages?
• How frequently do you edit Misplaced Pages?
• What kind(s) of edits do you usually make on Misplaced Pages? (In what subject areas? In what namespace? Adding information? Removing information? Correcting information? Organizing information?)
• From where do you edit Misplaced Pages? (From home? From an educational institution? From a public library? From a workplace? From a community center? From a mobile device?)
• Why do you edit without using a registered username? (What are the advantages and disadvantages of doing so?)
• What is your age?
• What is your sex?
• Where do you live?
• What is your first language?
• How well do you read and write English?
• What additional information about your editing of Misplaced Pages do you wish to provide?

—Wavelength (talk) 00:13, 5 February 2013 (UTC) and 00:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

• We can get many answers by sampling the IP-edit histories: By looking at thousands of IP-edit histories, we know that ~90% of edits to unprotected, medium-interest articles are IP hack edits+reverts. When I say, "Misplaced Pages is 10% information and 90% deformation" then IP edits+reverts are one example of the deformation. Extreme fringe articles get mainly bot-edits, and almost never see vandalism. "Crowd sourcing" is called a "blog" and instead, encyclopedia writing is generally very restrictive and requires dedication to editing by checklists. Thousands of IP editors edit just a few articles, then rotate to another IP, rarely returning months/years later, possibly as someone else using that IP. If IP edits were sampled for IP location, then that could indicate activity by regions of the world. Looking at the average word-count of IP edits could be another statistic. I have spent some hours to confirm there are some IP editors who have added one paragraph of important content to each of hundreds of articles. Some major articles (celebrities: "Edith Piaf") were even started by IP editors (when they could create articles from IPs). Like many editors, I began editing WP as an IP editor for months/years, unsure of what restrictions were involved to be "allowed membership" as a username. Anyway, we could sample thousands of IP-edit histories to better understand them. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:18, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
• Let me predict the average answers generated by any 100 randomly selected Misplaced Pages IP editors: Q1. 1492. Q2. 325 times a day. Q3. FUCK YOU! BRIAN IS A SHIT FACE!!! Q4. ANYBODY CAN EDIT! Q5. 321. Q6. Oral!!! Q7. In a house. Q8. Ma-ma. Q9. ¡No comprendo! Q10. See attached link for picture of my dick at Commons: <URL HERE>. Carrite (talk) 04:58, 5 February 2013 (UTC)