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Just some typos

Under Organization:

"...notable politicians Republican politicians Ron Paul, his son Rand Paul,..."

should be

"...notable Republican politicians Ron Paul and his son Rand Paul,..."

for clarity and correctness.

Under Agenda: Delete New York Times definition - They are far left and not factual or credible. NOT "anti-government", but anti "irresponsible" government

Foreign policy

I've moved the following unsourced text here, with the hopes that someone could provide a reliable source citation for it:

As a result, the Tea Party has shown it is largely distinct from the neoconservative and liberal internationalist viewpoints on foreign policy, while not totally endorsing the non-interventionist approach of the paleoconservatives and paleolibertarians. Some Republicans with links to the Tea Party, however, like Marco Rubio and Paul Ryan have embraced the neoconservative foreign policy through their votes on bills such as these.

It appears to be a conclusion of sorts, but I don't see it conveyed by the two "vote list" sources that precede it. Any help? Xenophrenic (talk) 18:09, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Cspan caller to Norm Ornstein Called for Tea Party Early February

On Cspan early in February 2009, a caller from Minnesota called for a Tea Part movement for America during a segment with Norm Ornstein. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.53.204.177 (talk) 18:37, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

The tobacco industry and the Tea Party

• Study Confirms Tea Party Was Created by Big Tobacco and Billionaires
• Amanda Fallin, Rachel Grana, Stanton A Glantz, ‘To quarterback behind the scenes, third-party efforts’: the tobacco industry and the Tea Party

— goethean 23:09, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

The first items is about 6 levels below being a source and credibility. The second one has some real facts in it plus spun statements that don't follow from the facts listed. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

As usual, your comments are strictly partisan, have no relation to Misplaced Pages policy, and can be ignored as irrelevant. The academic journal article that the blog post describes and which the abstract summarizes is a reliable source of the highest order and will be used in this article. — goethean 14:11, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you discuss without the baseless personal insults? More specifically:

1. On the first item, I was commenting on what you linked to (a clearly anti-TPM advocacy blog) not the item which you are now referring to but didn't link to.
2. On the second item, a link to the "TobaccoControl" web site, what I said is that the material on that web page it contained some factual items and some statements that didn't follow from those factual items.

How in your imagination do you get your "strictly partisan" crap out of that? Quit it! North8000 (talk) 15:00, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I am being more polite and charitable than your comments warrant. No matter, I have already requested through my local public library a copy of the full text of the academic journal article. I suggest that you do the same. — goethean 15:32, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I'll charitably skip to your second sentence. Sounds like a good idea to see what is in there. It might be good material. North8000 (talk) 16:54, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I love these correlation without causation studies. Some anti-TP people think that Big Tobacco must be behind the TP and then go look for anything that confirms their hypothesis. Finding anything then confirms their hypothesis. It might be more believable if the TP had been a notable participant in any big tobacco issues. I would be far more likely to believe that the TP was created by Big Oil, but that is just to passe to be of interest by the MSM. Arzel (talk) 17:03, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

agreed, i first heard of the tea party in 2007 and was about income tax. Darkstar1st (talk) 18:41, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

The whole core of the TPM agenda and driving force of the movement is prioritizing less government, lower taxes, lower spending. A reader of this crap-hole attack piece of an article, where every possible piece of negative trivia has been gamed and battled in would think that it is about everything but those things. And a few people have work aggressively and tendentiously to prevent it rising from attack-piece junk status, and people have given up on fixng it. North8000 (talk) 18:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Well, if you can tell that a study is flawed without reading it, then I guess you don't need a copy of it. — goethean 01:22, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Please look up a few lines, I didn't say that. More specifically I said "Sounds like a good idea to see what is in there. It might be good material." North8000 (talk) 02:53, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Most Muslims claim their religion goes back to Adam instead of Mohammad. We do not accept this claim but merely note it and go with outside observation. We have outside academic observation that the Tea Party was created by non-profit groups founded and funded by corporate interests. Per NPOV, unless we find academic sources that present them as being a grassroots movement, we cannot present them as such. I've summarized the findings, and only cited the HuffPost article for verification that Citizens for a Sound Economy (mentioned even in the abstract). I could also cite the source that says the same thing at our article on CoaSE, but this source, which is about the study, is the most appropriate secondary source. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:14, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The issue, of course, is that we're not *required* to use any source that comes around, especially if it doesn't pass the smell test. Per WP:V, it seems pretty controversial to add so far, and I would agree with its removal at the moment until we've got more information on it. Thargor Orlando (talk) 14:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Americans for Prosperity and Freedomworks are not the whole of the tea party, or even a majority. OR at best, POV pushing more likely. Nonprofit organizations associated with the Tea Party have longstanding ties to tobacco companies is the snippet sniped from the cancer study some unknown blogged about. weasel word alert; associated, ties, is a far cry from the edit you support. Darkstar1st (talk) 14:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Thargor Orlando: Please present any non-Tea Party source finding that the study's conclusions are controversial. We don't do original research, but we do use published original research from peer-reviewed academic journals with editorial oversight ("When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources"). It is nothing but tendentious to deny that a peer-reviewed journal on how big tobacco has affected society is reliable.

Darkstar1st: You clearly didn't see the edit I made, please actually know what you're talking about before posting. I only summarized what was in the two source, and gave those two sources only one sentence, so there wasn't an issue of undue weight. I only summarized what was in the sources (including a secondary source giving professional analysis of the article), so there wasn't OR. As the source points out, Americans for Prosperity and Freedomworks are not the Tea Party movement as a whole now, but (as is documented in sources here and in the journal article), were responsible for getting the Tea Party movement started. My edit did not say "associated" and "ties", so your application of WP:WEASEL is incorrect at best and false at worst. The Huffington post article did use those words in summarizing parts of the study, but trying to apply WP:WEASEL to outside sources is nothing but Wikilawyering.

Overall, I'm seeing wikilawyering (bad wikilawyering at that) and tendentious editing in trying to apply BLP to groups, arguing that summarizing published works with no embellishment fails our rules preventing us from doing original research, and arguing that a peer-reviewed journal on how big tobacco has affected society is anything but the best source for one more way the tobacco industry has affected society. That is the shameful POV-pushing going on here, not my addition. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't see a lot of coverage period yet, which should probably tell us something. As it stands, it appears that the link is "Big Tobacco wants to use 3rd party groups, one third party group that agrees with Big Tobacco also agrees with the Tea Party, thus the Tea Party roots are in Big Tobacco." I don't see how that exactly makes a ton of sense, or why it needs to be in this article. We have enough bad sourcing from both sides of the debate in this article to begin with, I fail to see what this adds at this time. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

That's not what the source says. Try reading. — goethean 19:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

"Tobacco Control"

Is not a reliable source for making contentious claims about living persons. One eensy indication that it is not a "neutral source" is the bit:

It is important for tobacco control advocates in the USA and internationally, to anticipate and counter Tea Party opposition to tobacco control policies and ensure that policymakers, the media and the public understand the longstanding connection between the tobacco industry, the Tea Party and its associated organisations.

Sources which make clearly editorial comments are unlikely to meet Misplaced Pages requirements about contentious claims. Collect (talk) 14:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

It has a LOT of problems. An "F" grade source telling us what the "study" says, and it only talking about a tiny piece of the TPM, not the TPM. North8000 (talk) 14:31, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Here is the website of the academic journal Tobacco Control. It is unquestionably a reliable source of the highest caliber. That the article argues about what is important for tobacco advocates to do or to not do in order to be effective has absolutely no bearing on its status as a reliable source. — goethean 15:51, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The journal is published by BMJ Group. — goethean 15:58, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The "study" is based on Google and Wayback - and the journal is not a reliable source on political issues at all -- any more than the JAMA would be a reliable source on economics. No journal is "reliable" when it ventures far outside its actual sphere of expertise. Collect (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

BLP applies to persons, not to movements or organizations. An imprint of the peer-reviewed, editorial-oversighted British Medicinal Journal focused on how the Tobacco industry affects society is an RS for issues relating to how the tobacco industry has affected society. Just because we do not use Google archives and Wayback does not prevent peer-reviewed, editorial-oversighted academic journals from doing so. It is tendentious to dispute the validity of undeniably reliable sources, and it is wikilawyering to apply the standards for living individuals to unliving (if active) organizations. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:07, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

That's just one of the many problems with that problematic attempted insertion. North8000 (talk) 17:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

As you ignored above, however, WP:V does not require us to use every source available. If the source is generally reliable, but the assertion doesn't really pass the smell test, we don't have to use it. As it stands, I can't tell whether this is a good study or not. I think we should wait until we know whether it is or not. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I was getting to commenting above, and have done so. "We don't have to use it" is meant to prevent original research, not as an excuse for partisan censorship based on bad wikilawyering. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

It's not narrowed to that one case, and the last two items you listed (" partisan censorship based on bad wikilawyering.") don't exist regarding keeping it out except as you baseless insult/ mis-chacerization. Please quit that crap. Also you violated the 1RR restriction. Let's see if there is any quality stuff in the actual study and stop trying to war in crap from an advocacy blog. North8000 (talk) 17:40, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I did not violate 1RR, I only make 1 revert. Misapplying BLP to this group was wikilawyering, applying WP:WEASEL to the HuffPost article was wikilawyering, rejecting the study for OR is wikilawyering and tendentious, and saying that a peer-reviewed academic journal with editorial oversight on how the tobacco industry has affected society is anything but the best source for how big tobacco has affected society is tendentious, and all those are things that have occurred on this talk page. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:46, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

What you are trying to put in is a faulty construction built upon a faulty construction built by an extreme op ed piece. North8000 (talk) 18:04, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

No, I put in a summary of this academic source, and only cited the secondary source for the part saying that Citizens for a Sound Economy was founded by the Koch brothers, something we affirm in our own article about that group. Did you even bother to read my edit? Ian.thomson (talk) 18:08, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the edit was appropriate and support its restoration. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:16, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

No, your statement came from the op ed in the advocacy blog (the second cite) and actually conflicts with the source which you used to cite it. North8000 (talk) 18:21, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

At best, your assessment there was completely mistaken.

My addition: In 2013, a study published in the journal Tobacco Control concluded that the movement was formed over time by non-profit organizations created by the tobacco industry and other corporate interests

Quotes from the study, not the HuffPost article: "Nonprofit organizations associated with the Tea Party have longstanding ties to tobacco companies, and continue to advocate on behalf of the tobacco industry's anti-tax, anti-regulation agenda." "Starting in the 1980s, tobacco companies worked to create the appearance of broad opposition to tobacco control policies by attempting to create a grassroots smokers’ rights movement. Simultaneously, they funded and worked through third-party groups, such as Citizens for a Sound Economy, the predecessor of AFP and FreedomWorks, to accomplish their economic and political agenda. There has been continuity of some key players, strategies and messages from these groups to Tea Party organisations." "Rather than being a purely grassroots movement that spontaneously developed in 2009, the Tea Party has developed over time, in part through decades of work by the tobacco industry and other corporate interests."

You are absolutely wrong to claim that what I added was not supported (or even contradicted) by the academic article. I did not have to include the HuffPost article, but only did so for confirming that the Koch brothers founded Citizens for a Sound Economy (and if you want to dispute that that was my intention, read WP:AGF). Ian.thomson (talk) 18:31, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:RSN discussion

I've raised the issue of whether or not a peer-reviewed BMJ Group academic journal with editorial oversight concerning how the tobacco industry has affected society is an appropriate source for how the tobacco industry at WP:RSN, at British Medical Journal imprint, "Tobacco Control," on one way how big tobacco has affected society. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:55, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe the argument is that it's not reliable, but whether or not the reference and topic are appropriate for the article. Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:09, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Except that it has been argued that it's not reliable in this instance, and RSN does address whether it's appropriate to use an RS in a particular situation. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

What you put there is a mis-statement of the question and issues and so is not relevant to the debate here. North8000 (talk) 18:15, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Have you been reading the above threads and the edit summaries in the article? Your friends have tried applying BLP to a group, they've tried applying WP:OR and WP:WEASEL to sources instead of articles, and they've said that a peer-reviewed academic source on how the tobacco industry affects society is not a reliable source for one way the tobacco industry has affected society. It's not even archived discussion, it's something that anyone keeping up with discussion would know unless they intentionally ignored it. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:21, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I never said anything about BLP. Per above, your statement came from the op ed in the advocacy blog (the second cite) and actually conflicts with the source which you used to cite it. North8000 (talk) 18:24, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Will you actually read what I'm saying? I said "your friends have tried applying BLP to a group," it was first brought up here by Collect.

I never said I got the statement from the HuffPost piece, I only said that I got confirmation that Citizens for a Sound Economy was founded by the Koch brothers. If you continue to get that wrong, I will only be able to assume that you're actively lying about things I've said. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:35, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about your statement "the movement was formed over time by non-profit organizations created by the tobacco industry and other corporate interests". Even the "Tobacco Control" website source ("out there" as it is) that you used to cite that does not support that statement. Even the content of the op ed piece from the Huffington doesn't support that, only its title which its body doesn't support says that. Thus my "faulty construction built upon a faulty construction" statement. The biggest problem is even the highly biased sources that you chose don't support the statement that you are trying to put in. The second biggest problem is the low quality of the sources with respect to this. And I've not been discussing BLP. North8000 (talk) 18:57, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

My addition: In 2013, a study published in the journal Tobacco Control concluded that the movement was formed over time by non-profit organizations created by the tobacco industry and other corporate interests

Quotes from the study, not the HuffPost article: "Nonprofit organizations associated with the Tea Party have longstanding ties to tobacco companies, and continue to advocate on behalf of the tobacco industry's anti-tax, anti-regulation agenda." "Starting in the 1980s, tobacco companies worked to create the appearance of broad opposition to tobacco control policies by attempting to create a grassroots smokers’ rights movement. Simultaneously, they funded and worked through third-party groups, such as Citizens for a Sound Economy, the predecessor of AFP and FreedomWorks, to accomplish their economic and political agenda. There has been continuity of some key players, strategies and messages from these groups to Tea Party organisations." "Rather than being a purely grassroots movement that spontaneously developed in 2009, the Tea Party has developed over time, in part through decades of work by the tobacco industry and other corporate interests."

You said that I put a misstatement of the question over at RSN, I did not misstate your question, I did not say you raised BLP, quit acting like I did because Collect did and you cannot deny that he did.

You accuse Tobacco Control, published by BMJ Group, a highly respected academic journal that is peer-reviewed and has editorial oversight, of being low quality? Ok, are you a corporate shill, or a Tea Partier in denial about being an unwitting lobbyist? Because that kind of tendentious editing cannot come from someone reasonably acting in good faith. A source not giving into the Tobacco company's propaganda is not the same as a biased source. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The number 1 problem is that your statement is not supported even by your selected references, and you have just proved me right. The material that you and others are trying to war in is in direct violation of WP:Verifiability and wp:synth, and is highly controversial material which has nothing even near a consensus for inclusion . North8000 (talk) 19:27, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

At this point, however, whether or not the source is reliable is secondary to the complete lack of consensus for addition. I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's clearly something wrong with how this addition is going. Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:58, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

New US gov't study on origins of Tea Party -- add to article

Someone should incorporate this into the "Organization" section: a new study from the National Institute of Health showing that the Tea Party originated out of a movement started in 2002 by the tobacco industry and the Koch brothers to foment action against taxes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brendan-demelle/study-confirms-tea-party-_b_2663125.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.74.135 (talk) 18:41, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

We're trying to cite the academic article that HuffPost piece is about, but some individuals who keep misinterpreting the situation have been removing it. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

HuffPo is not RS for such a claim, and the "source" is not RS for political claims. Health publications are RS for health studies. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:26, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Anent POV of a source:

was very surprised to be invited to present as part of an FDA-sponsored “Facilitated Dialogue” panel also featuring tobacco industry representatives, which would be focused on the topic of industry-funded research. This very type of industry engagement with senior public health figures is straight out of the tobacco companies’ public relations “corporate social responsibility” playbook and was something that at least one tobacco company anticipated as a favorable result of FDA legislation. Such “dialogues” have long been part of this and earlier industry public relations campaigns. Public health authorities and scientists – to say nothing of the federal agency charged with regulating this industry — should not lend their legitimacy to the tobacco companies’ efforts to position themselves as socially responsible.

The idea of "peer review" is for scientific studies. Political statements are != "scientific studies" as far as I can tell.

. For this very reason, Tobacco Control, the journal that I edit, and other reputable scientific journals including PLoS Medicine no longer publish tobacco industry-funded research. To engage the industry as a legitimate partner in the discussion of how to deal with industry science is to ignore this large body of evidence.

And we are thus to accept a political paper about the topic where the organization appears to have an eensy bit of a POV? Sorry, Charlie. Collect (talk) 19:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Tobacco Control is not a government or academic source; it is solely political, even though published by a professional organization. HuffPo is a reliable source that the claim was made, though. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:46, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

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