| Revision as of 09:52, 19 February 2013 editMezzoMezzo (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers19,113 edits →changes by mckhan← Previous edit | Revision as of 03:55, 22 February 2013 edit undoMcKhan (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,861 edits →changes by mckhanNext edit → | ||
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| :::::::::: Mr Mezzo your inflaming the situation with yet another unnecessary comment..i dont need to go to any talk page before i make edits to an article of my choosing,, understand? thats perhaps something you and mckhan have an issue of..you cant wp: own an article..now mckhan your proposing an administrative protection on ahbash article? forget about the proponents of ahbash..im more worried about the opponents which you have made clear that you are one on this talk page. ] (]) 09:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::: Mr Mezzo your inflaming the situation with yet another unnecessary comment..i dont need to go to any talk page before i make edits to an article of my choosing,, understand? thats perhaps something you and mckhan have an issue of..you cant wp: own an article..now mckhan your proposing an administrative protection on ahbash article? forget about the proponents of ahbash..im more worried about the opponents which you have made clear that you are one on this talk page. ] (]) 09:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::::I apologize for enflaming the situation. Here's a suggestion, shall we pull another third opinion in place of myself? And are we all sure that we can't just take a day-long break and then come back to this? Or both? ] (]) 09:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::::I apologize for enflaming the situation. Here's a suggestion, shall we pull another third opinion in place of myself? And are we all sure that we can't just take a day-long break and then come back to this? Or both? ] (]) 09:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC) | ||
| {{od}} | |||
| == '''] and ]''' == | |||
| FYI: | |||
| *'''Dr. `Ali Jum`ah, Professor of the Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence at ] University''', issued a ] (Islamic Decree) against the ] in which he stated: ''"This sect follows `Abdullah Al-Harary Al-Habashi, and it has surface and deep levels. At the surface, this sect seems to adhere to the Shafi`i School of Jurisprudence, and to Imam Al-Ash`ari’s School as regards creed. However, at the deep level, their main intention is to corrupt the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslim Ummah. Moreover, they are paid agents to the enemies of Islam."'' '''Source:''' | |||
| *'''In August 2001, the President of the University of ] in Egypt, Dr. Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim,''' issued a statement in which he announced ''''''<u>that ] had nothing to do with the Ahbash of Lebanon and he stated that the position of ] was that “that group is unwholesome, untrustworthy, and un-islamic in its thinking.”</u>'''''' '''Source:''' | |||
| * - ] | |||
| Thank you. ] (]) | |||
Revision as of 03:55, 22 February 2013
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Neutral Point of View Noticeboard / Al-Ahbash
I have taken the liberty to take the matter to NPOV Noticeboard. Thank you. McKhan (talk)
Changes to sourced content
Would the IP please explain why he is making changes to sourced content without adding new references to support the changes? Darkness Shines (talk) 21:58, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Merger proposal
The Ahbashism campaign article is never going to get much beyond it's current size, it ought to be merged here with the Ahbashism campaign left as a redirect. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
- Support: I am for it as long as it presents the information written by the Al-Ahbash as well as its opponents objectively under the light of pertinent academic sources and Misplaced Pages's NPOV guidelines. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 04:52, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
- Support: I know very little about the subject matter and in general, I prefer expanding existing articles rather than merging. In this case, however, the original creator of the Campaign article made three edits and then seemed to disappear from Misplaced Pages, and other concerned editors since then have been unable to expand the article beyond its current size. All things considered, I can see just makeing a section within the Ahbash article and merging the Ahbashism Campaign article into that section of the main article. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:40, 18 February 2013 (UTC)*
- Oppose: Ahbash article is currently too small & merger would give the campaign undue weight. perhaps if the ahbash article expanded more then i would support. Baboon43 (talk) 04:20, 18 February 2013
- Request: Just for clarification Baboon, if editors give a community wide pledge to help you and those concerned expand the main portion of the Ahbash article, would you then be willing to support the merge based on good will? MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:31, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- Help me? im not interested in expanding this article..first i would like to see the article expanded before a merger takes place not after. Baboon43 (talk) 06:43, 18 February 2013
- I just expanded the article and you reverted it which proves the fact that you are only interested in "expanding" the article as per your own agenda. I dare you to prove that the content which I added is "biased". Go on. McKhan (talk) 07:50, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- Help me? im not interested in expanding this article..first i would like to see the article expanded before a merger takes place not after. Baboon43 (talk) 06:43, 18 February 2013
- Request: Just for clarification Baboon, if editors give a community wide pledge to help you and those concerned expand the main portion of the Ahbash article, would you then be willing to support the merge based on good will? MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:31, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
changes by mckhan
- first paragraph is just repeating whats in the article
- so is the 2nd paragraph + we won't define sufism on the ahbash article maybe that can be done on the sufi page
- 3rd paragraph repeats some of the things already in the article & aicp.org only says quran is word from God not what that source says & this conflicts with the article *
- 4th paragraph, Tariq Ramadan is not neutral..mainly becuz he is a wahabi he is also grand son of the founder of the muslim brotherhood which would conflict with ahbash since they had quarrels with them. Baboon43 (talk) 08:05, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not ready and not yet informed enough to comment on the edits, but I do have to disagree with the claim that Tariq Ramadan is Wahhabi, the most obvious reason being that Wahhabi is typically used as a slur and no group self-identifies with the term. The second reason is that no reliable source on the page for Ramadan here on Misplaced Pages denotes him as a Wahhabi. Regarding the two sources you've given, then the second source is simply the cover of the book and the first source is unviewable to me at least because Google Books is telling me the page in question is not part of the preview. Now, one thing I do know about Tariq Ramadan is that the man detests Salafists and Salafism and once claimed that all Islamist terrorism has its root with Salafists; while Salafism and Wahhabism are two different things, the terms are related enough to infer that his opposition to Salafism probably also means an opposition to Wahhabism. With that in mind and without a strong, reliable and contrary source I don't think he should be referred to as a Wahhabi.
- Now, he is obviously a big time ideological supporer of the Muslim Brotherhood, but why does that render his testimony invalid for the purposes of this article? As controversial as he is, Ramadan is recognized as an academic and an expert on Islamic issues whether we, the editors here, agree with his views or not. If there is concern that presenting his case could give readers of this article an inaccurate picture of Ahbashism based on biased views, then the answer isn't to remove sources for quotes from very notable experts on the topic; it's to simply make it clear in the text that the views are opinions of that person and not objective fact. I'm not commenting on the edits as, like I said, I'm not yet informed enough on the subject matter or edits to do that. All that I'm saying is that I disagree both with the statement that Tariq Ramadan is a Wahhabi and the view that quotes from the man should not be included in articles for opposing movements. Most religious, political and social movements which have notable opposition contain sections about that on their Misplaced Pages articles, and of course those sections will quote people who disagree with said movement. I don't see any reason to enact a different rule here.
- So I'm not commenting on these edits just yet; I'm only commenting on the issue surrounding this man. MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- This article must present the information written by the Al-Ahbash as well as its opponents (including "Wahabis", "Infidels" or "Kaafir" .etc) objectively under the light of pertinent academic sources and Misplaced Pages's NPOV guidelines. The content which I added was NOT written by me but another editor who has left Wikpedia. I have had lots of extensive and long discussions with you and my conclusion IS that you consistently demonstrate "Al-Ahbash vs. Wahabish" mindset (Misplaced Pages is not a battleground and it only cares about NPOV), you do NOT want ANYTHING posted on any of Misplaced Pages page which may be perceived critical of the Al-Ahbash and/or expose them of having differences of beliefs with the mainstream Sunnis/Muslims. Since the people in the West consider Sufism to be "cool" thus you also want to make sure that those "Sufi" credentials of the Al-Ahbash - if any - are not put in doubt as well. Having said that I have highlighted the specifics in bold for everybody to see which is lacking in the current version:
- Shaykh Habashi in his books and lectures blend elements of Sunni and Shi'a theological doctrines with Sufi spiritualism by supporting the legitimacy of Imam Ali and his descendants while condemning Mu'awiyya, the caliph and governor of Damascus, and his son Yazid as "seditious" thus adopting Shi'ite tradition whereas setting apart from all other Sunni jurists. . Although not explicitly stated, Sufism plays also an important role in al-Ahbash's doctrine as demonstrated by the practice of several Sufi traditions such as the pilgrimage to holy men's tombs (Ziyarat) and the support of three Sufi Tariqas. The contention that it is a primarily Sufi movement, however, has been disputed.
- Kabla and Haggai Erlich identify "moderation" as the key word in al-Ahbash's "necessary science of religion" and instance the group's twelve-goal platform whose second item calls for "reaching moderation and good behavior as ways of implementing religious principles, while combating extremism and zeal." . This position is also reflected in the groups's decided opposition to the Salafist movement and radical Islamist thinkers, namely Sayyid Qutb, Muhammed ibn 'Abd-al-Wahhab, and Ibn Taymiyyah. Al-Ahbash's rather progressive views on education, the role of women, and science contradict many of the above named writers' opinions. One further critical cleavage is al-Ahbash's strict rejection of any form of anthropomorphism of God which they accuse Wahhabism of . Consequently, Shaykh Habashi holds that "it does not befit God to speak like that, and his word is not a voice or letters" and that therefore, the Qu'ran contains the word of God but could be written only after "Gabriel listened to His word, understood it, and passed it on to the prophets and the angels" - a highly controversial point of view within Islam which is not fully compatible with the consensus of Sunnis. The arguably most important split, however, is the question of the relation between religion, politics, and the state. Departing from most Islamic writings on this topic, al-Ahbash advocates a separation of religion and state and thereby rejects the idea of an Islamic state. Consequently, the group repeatedly emphasized the need for Muslim-Christian co-existence and tolerance towards other religious groups in Lebanon.
- Tariq Ramadan's quote summarizes all the important elements of the above paragraphs quite succinctly. No matter what you think of Tariq Ramadan as "Wahabi" or grandson of the founder of Muslim Brotherhood, the fact remains that he is a bona-fide and well-respected Professor at Oxford with a Ph.D. in Arabic and in Islamic studies.
- In a nutshell, the content which I added may look familiar but it elaborates way more on the subject than the current version (I am NOT the sole author of any of the versions) and spells out the differences of beliefs between the mainstream Sunnis/Muslims and the Al-Ahbash, which you don't want Wikipdia readers to know about at any cost, by using the VERIFIABLE / ACADEMIC sources and the words and material of Al-Ahbash/AICP and their own Shaykh:
- al-Habashi, Shaykh 'Abdallah (1990). Sarih al-Bayan (Explicit Declaration). Beirut, Lebanon: Jam'iyyat al-Mashari'. pp. 86, 88, 90, 105 ('These ahadith are: "For whosoever I am master, this Ali is his master; 0 God support whosoever is"'), 111 ('Habashi does not give much importance to the Hanafi and Maliki Schools of Law'), 107, 195.
- Manar al-Huda (Beirut, Lebanon: Association of Islamic Charitable Projects). November 1992, 32; ibid., April 1993, 37; April-May 1993, 45. http://www.manarulhudamag.com/.
- al-Habashi, Shaykh 'Abdallah (1994). Al-Kafil bi-'Ilm al-Din al-Daruri (The Guarantor of the Necessary Science of Faith). Beirut, Lebanon: Burj Abi Haydar Mosque. pp. 46.
- ^ al-Habashi, Shaykh 'Abdallah. Bughyat al-talib. Beirut, Lebanon: Association of Islamic Charitable Projects. p. 31.
- ^ al-Habashi, Shaykh 'Abdallah. "Shaykh Abdalla's lecture, 26 January 2003". Beirut, Lebanon: Association of Islamic Charitable Projects.
- And you still consider it to be "biased"? That is just beyond me. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 09:23, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- anti sufi, pro wahabi scholar is not neutral…tariq not only attacked the whole sufi establishment he also lies saying ahbash consider majority of muslims non believers "Tariq Ramadan's own interpretation belongs to the trend of salafi reformism"-Sharing Lights on the way to God: Muslim-Christian Dialogue and Theology in the Context of Abrahimic Partnership-p.325..."it was revealed that among the members of the advisory board were notable apologists for Wahabism and even jihadi scholars, such as Dr Tariq Ramadan"-The War of Ideas: Jihadism against Democracy-p.246 Baboon43 (talk) 09:47, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- And you still consider it to be "biased"? That is just beyond me. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 09:23, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- Baboon43 (talk · contribs), You have quoted two sources which supposed to show the Misplaced Pages readers the "true" face of Tariq Ramadan and here is what the cursory web search reveals: According to The Center for Media and Democracy - SourceWatch, Walid_Phares, the author of The War of Ideas: Jihadism against Democracy "is a right-wing "terrorism" analyst who often appears as an expert on TV chat shows. In 2011, he was listed as a national security advisor to Mitt Romney, the Republican presidential hopeful." According to Professor. As'ad AbuKhalil, Walid_Phares has got Checkered history as "Terrorism Expert" Walid Phares is a "former commander of the Lebanese Forces militia, although that is stricken out of his c.v."). This source reveals even more about this author. Thus, the credibility of this author seems to be pretty dubious.
- Pim Valkenberg, the author of Sharing Lights on the Way to God: Muslim-Christian Dialogue and Theology in he Context of Abrahimic Partnership also wrote (about Tariq Ramadan) that on the topic of Future of Islam in the West, "On this topic the Swiss Muslim intellectual Tariq Ramadan has written several pioneering studies." (Page 270) and that "Tariq Ramadan argues that Muslims should become active participants in the societies in which they live, including forms of political representation." (Page 326) and "Tariq Ramadan brings some interesting suggestions for the future of inter-religious dialogue between Christians and Muslims in the West." (Page 327)
- I will let the Wikpedia readers decide on their own. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 11:01, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- Baboon43 (talk · contribs), I would like to reiterate that this article must present the information written by the Al-Ahbash as well as its opponents (including "Wahabis", "Infidels" or "Kaafir" .etc) objectively under the light of pertinent academic sources and Misplaced Pages's NPOV guidelines. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 10:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mezzo: i just proved your theory wrong that " no wikipedia source denotes him as a wahabi"..it doesn't matter what tariq once claimed he is a well known two faced jihadi wahabi salafi scholar..you just said wahabism is a slur and no group self identifies as a wahabi but you make statements like "salafism and wahabism are two different things" so what is "wahabism"? just an ideology that someone can put on whenever they want to get extreme?
- Baboon43 (talk · contribs), I would like to reiterate that this article must present the information written by the Al-Ahbash as well as its opponents (including "Wahabis", "Infidels" or "Kaafir" .etc) objectively under the light of pertinent academic sources and Misplaced Pages's NPOV guidelines. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 10:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mckhan: you call yourself a traditionalist but you don't even know what that means..giving out wahabi websites to support your attacks on ahbash but now you have turned gear into some NPOV safeguarding editor..what?? i think "sufism is cool in the west"..when i first edited this page i tried to put ahbash heading as "religious movement" & was it not you who was reverting me with your socks?? & now you accuse me of pushing ahbash as a sufi group? your out of your mind..that ramadan quote has done nothing but boast ahbash's claim of adhering to sufism so its not me thats promoting ahbash's sufism..now you regret reverting julian because you have realized the ahbash page is out of your control so you decided to include his work..Baboon43 (talk) 06:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- Wahhabism and Salafism are clearly defined in the articles for both, and it is made clear that they are used interchangeably and as two different movements at times. Regarding Ramadan, then my comment still stands; no source on his Misplaced Pages page denotes him as a Wahhabi. If you would like to add the sources you provided here to his article, then you will need to take it to the talk page there first.
- As for you (Baboon) and the issue with McKhan...I have a suggestion. Let's everyone read the comments here, notice that there have been some personal remarks made from multiple directions and not reply to comments until noon tomorrow by Greenwich Mean Time. Just everybody cool off before the come back to discuss content. The article might need attention, but the world won't end if it isn't discussed for one more day, and the wait might help calm this discussion down. This isn't about proving the theories of other editors wrong, it's about improving the articles. We all know that but sometimes a reminder can help. MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:02, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mckhan: you call yourself a traditionalist but you don't even know what that means..giving out wahabi websites to support your attacks on ahbash but now you have turned gear into some NPOV safeguarding editor..what?? i think "sufism is cool in the west"..when i first edited this page i tried to put ahbash heading as "religious movement" & was it not you who was reverting me with your socks?? & now you accuse me of pushing ahbash as a sufi group? your out of your mind..that ramadan quote has done nothing but boast ahbash's claim of adhering to sufism so its not me thats promoting ahbash's sufism..now you regret reverting julian because you have realized the ahbash page is out of your control so you decided to include his work..Baboon43 (talk) 06:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- In my humble point of view, as per Darkness_Shines (talk · contribs)'s merger proposal (which is also kindly supported by MezzoMezzo (talk · contribs)), the next step should be to merge Ahbashism_campaign with the Al-Ahbash page. However, it is extremely important to note that WikiDan61 (talk · contribs)'s version has been turned into a non-NPOV-compliant version. Since the Al-Ahbash page already has a statement ( i.e. "In 2012, protesters in Addis Ababa accused the Ethiopian government of promoting Al-Ahbash in the country.") along-with other controversies, thus, it would be appropriate to make sure to keep Ahbashism_campaign controversy as short as possible to maintain the content equilibrium.
- Given that the subject of Al-Ahbash is extremely controversial and given that the proponents of Al-Ahbash constantly insert their POVs to all the Misplaced Pages pages, it is extremely important that this article (even after merger) MUST continue to present the information written by the Al-Ahbash as well as its opponents (including "Wahabis", "Infidels" or "Kaafir" .etc) objectively under the light of pertinent academic sources and Misplaced Pages's NPOV guidelines. Once it has been accomplished then this page should be protected by an administrator that nobody can alter it again arbitrarily. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 10:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mr Mezzo your inflaming the situation with yet another unnecessary comment..i dont need to go to any talk page before i make edits to an article of my choosing,, understand? thats perhaps something you and mckhan have an issue of..you cant wp: own an article..now mckhan your proposing an administrative protection on ahbash article? forget about the proponents of ahbash..im more worried about the opponents which you have made clear that you are one on this talk page. Baboon43 (talk) 09:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- I apologize for enflaming the situation. Here's a suggestion, shall we pull another third opinion in place of myself? And are we all sure that we can't just take a day-long break and then come back to this? Or both? MezzoMezzo (talk) 09:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- Mr Mezzo your inflaming the situation with yet another unnecessary comment..i dont need to go to any talk page before i make edits to an article of my choosing,, understand? thats perhaps something you and mckhan have an issue of..you cant wp: own an article..now mckhan your proposing an administrative protection on ahbash article? forget about the proponents of ahbash..im more worried about the opponents which you have made clear that you are one on this talk page. Baboon43 (talk) 09:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- Given that the subject of Al-Ahbash is extremely controversial and given that the proponents of Al-Ahbash constantly insert their POVs to all the Misplaced Pages pages, it is extremely important that this article (even after merger) MUST continue to present the information written by the Al-Ahbash as well as its opponents (including "Wahabis", "Infidels" or "Kaafir" .etc) objectively under the light of pertinent academic sources and Misplaced Pages's NPOV guidelines. Once it has been accomplished then this page should be protected by an administrator that nobody can alter it again arbitrarily. Thank you. McKhan (talk) 10:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Al-Azhar and Al-Ahbash
FYI:
- Dr. `Ali Jum`ah, Professor of the Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence at Al-Azhar University, issued a Fatwa (Islamic Decree) against the Al-Ahbash in which he stated: "This sect follows `Abdullah Al-Harary Al-Habashi, and it has surface and deep levels. At the surface, this sect seems to adhere to the Shafi`i School of Jurisprudence, and to Imam Al-Ash`ari’s School as regards creed. However, at the deep level, their main intention is to corrupt the Muslim creed and incite sedition amongst the Muslim Ummah. Moreover, they are paid agents to the enemies of Islam." Source:Al-Ahbash: Evolution and Beliefs
- In August 2001, the President of the University of Al-Azhar in Egypt, Dr. Ahmad ʿUmar Hashim, issued a statement in which he announced 'that Al-Azhar had nothing to do with the Ahbash of Lebanon and he stated that the position of Al-Azhar was that “that group is unwholesome, untrustworthy, and un-islamic in its thinking.”' Source: Exposing the Ahbash
- Jamaa’at al-Ahbaash (the Habashis) - Fatwa