| Revision as of 15:48, 23 February 2013 editHijiri88 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users37,389 edits →Names of modern figures proposal: use macrons← Previous edit | Revision as of 15:53, 23 February 2013 edit undoLittleBenW (talk | contribs)8,599 edits →Names of modern figures proposal: use macronsNext edit → | ||
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| :::LittleBenW, you have now insinuated that the way Japanese people choose to '''sign''' their own names when they do so in roman letters is irrelevant, and the orthography rules which '''one branch''' of the Japanese government apply to '''one type''' of Japanese legal document are more important than the personal choices of those people. '''Give it up already.''' ] (]) 15:16, 23 February 2013 (UTC) | :::LittleBenW, you have now insinuated that the way Japanese people choose to '''sign''' their own names when they do so in roman letters is irrelevant, and the orthography rules which '''one branch''' of the Japanese government apply to '''one type''' of Japanese legal document are more important than the personal choices of those people. '''Give it up already.''' ] (]) 15:16, 23 February 2013 (UTC) | ||
| :::And for the record: apparently the ] has no problem with either macrons or apostrophes. Nor do the Mie International Exchange Foundation. Nor do ]. Nor do the Iwate International Association. Note I am not claiming that it is actually the policy of various branches of Japanese government (and/or private organizations that are so prevalent they might as well be the government) to use macrons. I am only pointing out that they have in recent years published documents that contain them. There is nothing "wrong" with macrons, despite what LittleBenW, JoshuSasori and the latter's various sockpuppets seem to think. ] (]) 15:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC) | :::And for the record: apparently the ] has no problem with either macrons or apostrophes. Nor do the Mie International Exchange Foundation. Nor do ]. Nor do the Iwate International Association. Note I am not claiming that it is actually the policy of various branches of Japanese government (and/or private organizations that are so prevalent they might as well be the government) to use macrons. I am only pointing out that they have in recent years published documents that contain them. There is nothing "wrong" with macrons, despite what LittleBenW, JoshuSasori and the latter's various sockpuppets seem to think. ] (]) 15:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC) | ||
| :::*You are misquoting me. I said that—in ]—a single photo taken maybe 20 or 30 years ago when a person was a young kid (or one CD from the same era) is surely not a reliable guide to how the person thinks now, or currently-accepted practice as demonstrated by all the other later CD covers. I pointed to the rules on characters currently permitted in Japanese passports. Regarding personal preference, I also said that if you were to claim that a Japanese person's personal preference was to write his or her name using Chinese characters that the Japanese government does not permit to be registered in Japanese names, and all the reliable sources showed the name as being written using a government-approved character, you can surely guess what my opinion would be. ] (]) 15:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC) | |||
| == Use of "no" in the names of historical figures? == | == Use of "no" in the names of historical figures? == | ||
Revision as of 15:53, 23 February 2013
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WP:VG/GL#Non-English games
Archives of this discussion can be found at /VGGL and /VGGL2WP:VG/GL mediation
 | This discussion is now at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/Video games developed in Japan#Should the romaji version of Japanese videogame names be included in Misplaced Pages articles? |
Place Names: Islands
Would it be possible to clarify the policy concerning place names, notably those of islands? I ask because there were a few moves back in October which seem odd to me, but there don't seem to be rules here governing their written names. Consider the following:
- Ōnohara → Ōnohara-jima
- Tokunoshima → Toku-no-shima
- Chiringashima → Chirin-ga-shima
For the first, I'd be prone to use "Ōnohara Islands" (and strangely, the user who made this move also changed Sakurajima to "Sakura Island"), but I'm split on the other two because they contain genitive morphemes: hyphens, no hyphens or anglicization? — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 03:10, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that we need clarity on this, but my preference would generally be to retain the Japanese names, with a hyphen if and only if the suffix is optional. That is, "Ishigaki-jima" since it's called Ishigaki as well, but not "Miya-jima" since Miyajima is always Miyajima.) Sakurajima falls clearly in the latter camp, and there's no way the most common English name is "Sakura Island", unless Hiroshima's now "Hiro Island" as well. Jpatokal (talk) 11:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- This is my preference as well. -shima, -jima, can usually be considered part of the proper noun forming the name of the island. i.e. "Ōshima" is never "Ō Island" - it would be as ridiculous to rename "Fukushima Prefecture" as "Fuku Island Prefecture". Japanese anglicizations, official or otherwise, are often inconsistent. Perhaps whether or not to use hypenization can be settled by consensus, but in any event I do not feel that "Sakura Island" is acceptable from either a common usage standpoint or from the MOS. --MChew (talk) 06:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, that's what the article was renamed (see Sakura Island). I personally feel that it's strange and that such literal translations should only be noted in parentheses, perhaps beside the Kanji as is done on the Tokyo article. — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 00:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- A problem I'm seeing with any consistent policy regarding "islands" in Japan is that the Japanese word 島(shima, -jima) is used a lot for places that in English we can't reasonably call "islands", at least as a title. See for instance Okinotorishima. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:59, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- As long as -shima, -jima are regarded as part of the proper noun, this should not make a difference. The article can simply be named Okinotorishima, without translating a portion of the name to English, and comment made in the article that it is official considered an island by the Japanese government, but that the designation is disputed by other parties. No need to use "Okinotori Island" or "Okinotori Rock".--MChew (talk) 07:54, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- But the article already does say "Okinotori Island" in its body: the title doesn't, but would you suggest we change the body of the article? elvenscout742 (talk) 11:30, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. And this avoids the dispute over whether it is actually an island, an atoll, a rock, etc. --MChew (talk) 14:19, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- But the article already does say "Okinotori Island" in its body: the title doesn't, but would you suggest we change the body of the article? elvenscout742 (talk) 11:30, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
I think we've got something close to consensus here! How's this for wording? Jpatokal (talk) 22:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
- Islands should be named X Island if common usage does not require appending -shima/jima/tō (島): Okinawa Island, Ōnohara Island, Rebun Island. However, use the Japanese name complete with -shima/jima if the suffix forms an inseparable part of the name: Ōshima, Miyajima, Sakurajima. Do not use hyphens or spaces to separate particles or suffixes: Tokunoshima, Okinotorishima, Chiringashima. Notable exception: Iwo Jima, which has a well-established spelling in English.
- What is meant by "common usage"? Some English sources say Okinotorishima and some say Okinotori Islands, and very few of the examples you list are "widely-known" outside Japan, so your wording would acutally require us to move these pages. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:08, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
- Just go by how the Japanese refer to the location. I know none of my colleagues refer to Sesoko as Sesokojima when they're talking to each other in English.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:43, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
- → WP:COMMONNAME. On Google, Okinotorishima gets about 500k results, vs a mere 12k for Okinotori Islands, so the winner is pretty clear. And yes, the line is fuzzy and there will be debates, but I think that's preferable to having no policy at all and ending up with Sakura Island etc. Jpatokal (talk) 23:43, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
- What is meant by "common usage"? Some English sources say Okinotorishima and some say Okinotori Islands, and very few of the examples you list are "widely-known" outside Japan, so your wording would acutally require us to move these pages. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:08, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
- The only problem, especially for lesser-known places, is that the results will be heavily based on Misplaced Pages. Though otherwise I do agree with the common name rule, as this resolves cases like Fukushima, Ōshima and Okinawa Island. If, however, there are two forms in competition, then it may be preferable to mention both in the lead, and choose one to unify the name within the article.
- As for the hyphens used in some names, I assume we should opt to remove them (especially so in cases with internal morphemes like Tokunoshima)? But what do we do about articles seemingly using the translation "Island", as in Hisaka Island or Kashiko Island? Should we impose the English word if the island is really not that known in English literature? Or should we do the opposite, and impose the usage of, say, Hisakajima? — Io Katai ᵀᵃˡᵏ 02:11, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages influencing itself is a general problem and WP:COMMONNAME has suggestions for working around it (namely use Google Books and Scholar, not the net at wide). For Kashikojima, I'm pretty sure the -shima is integral; for Hisaka, not sure. And as always, if we opt for X Island, the Japanese name should be in the lead. Jpatokal (talk) 04:34, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Bump -- any more comments, or is this good to go? Jpatokal (talk) 00:43, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
You might find Template:Google RS (and related templates) useful for researching majority usage in reliable and widely-respected English-language sources (but not Misplaced Pages). It would be quite easy to create a template that searches Japanese government and semi-governmental English-language sources like the JNTO, plus the Japan Times. There's also a tutorial on doing searches that exclude Misplaced Pages, for example. LittleBen (talk) 03:24, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thing about that (and this is in reply to your drawing my attention to it on your talk page, too) is that with obscure topics that aren't discussed a lot in English sources, it will either come up with no results (as with Yūkichi Takeda) or so few results that they hardly constitute an academic consensus or a common name. However, if they came up with five results, and all five went one way, we should not be using that as an excuse to make an exception to the general rule. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:54, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposal for amendment to rule on municipality article-titles
I posted the below comment on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Japan and a number of users responded. Before it turns into a full blown MOS-amendment debate, I decided to move it here. Basically, we are discussing whether the rules for naming articles on Japanese municipalities should be changed. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:54, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
The Manual of Style says that we should For cities, use the form ]; for example, Otaru, Hokkaidō. Exception: For designated cities, use ] without appending the prefecture unless disambiguation from another city or prefecture is necessary.
I can understand the exception for designated cities, although I think it would be better if we made the exception for cities that have the same name as their prefectures and used, say, Okinawa (city).
However, a more significant issue is one I recently raised in the current move request at Talk:Kamakura. We have a huge number of articles on Japanese municipalities where either they are the only usage of their name, or they are the clear primary topic, and so we have ] redirecting to ]. This seems somewhat counter-intuitive, since the only reason we need the prefecture name is for disambiguation. Other countries' municipalities don't seem to follow this convention (Tubbercurry, Huludao, etc.), so why do we? Having a redirect from a simple form to a complex one just seems wrong...
elvenscout742 (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- Doesn't a similar issue happen with the names of several United States municipalities? For example, the city of Orlando in Florida is clearly the primary usage of "Orlando", but the article is still located at Orlando, Florida, because of some weird pre-existing standard on when you only refer to a city by its name in the American press. I don't see why Japan should be treated any different.—Ryulong (琉竜) 02:47, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- Well, Japan isn't America. The Chinese and Irish examples I gave demonstrate that this is not some Misplaced Pages-wide thing (or at least it doesn't appear to be), so why should we apply the weird pre-existing standard on when you only refer to a city by its name in the American press to articles on Japan? I'm not sure where that American standard comes from, but mightn't it have something to do with America's status as a federation of what were originally independent states? Japanese prefectures have never really worked that way, anyway. elvenscout742 (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- With U.S. cities, there is often another town somewhere in the world with the same name. In particular, there are British editors who feel that the "original" town in England should be primary, for example Boston, Lincolnshire as opposed to the one in Massachusetts. With Japanese cities, I don't think we have to deal with any of that kind of nonsense. Kauffner (talk) 04:46, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Well, Japan isn't America. The Chinese and Irish examples I gave demonstrate that this is not some Misplaced Pages-wide thing (or at least it doesn't appear to be), so why should we apply the weird pre-existing standard on when you only refer to a city by its name in the American press to articles on Japan? I'm not sure where that American standard comes from, but mightn't it have something to do with America's status as a federation of what were originally independent states? Japanese prefectures have never really worked that way, anyway. elvenscout742 (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- I agree wholeheartedly on this one. There's no good excuse for applying U.S. geographical terminology outside the U.S.
- Peter 12:39, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
- Before I continue, Elvenscout may I ask why you brough this discussion here instead of WT:MOS-JA in the first place? This seems to be an issue with the manual of style rather than one that needs some sort of pre-argument with the WikiProject. And secondly, I never said that the standard exists and is because of the American MOS. I'm saying that a similar issue happens with American cities. For whatever reason, it was decided (at the MOS page) that only the cities that fall under the umbra of City designated by government ordinance need only be referred to by their singular names, unless there is some need for disambiguation from other topics (although I don't know why we have Shizuoka, Shizuoka and Saitama, Saitama). The example you give for Okinawa, Okinawa might be suitable, as might be removing the prefecture names from other prefectural capital articles, unless, again, there might be other article that there's disambiguation needed (eg. Matsuyama, Ehime). I am not sure the same can be said for all the smaller cities and towns dotting Japan (eg. Ginowan).—Ryulong (琉竜) 02:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- We have Shizuoka, Shizuoka because you moved it there less than a week ago. Lord knows why, though, since Shizuoka City seems much more logical. Unless you're from the U.S., I suppose.
- Ryulong, you seem to be at least somewhat familiar with the dealings here. Why doesn't the MOS-JA simply say "use <place name> for unambiguous place names and disambiguate in other cases according to the following stnadard"? What's the point of names like Shibuya, Tokyo, Moriyama-ku, Nagoya, Kōhoku-ku, Yokohama, etc?
- Peter 15:46, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
- I brought this here rather than to WT:MOS-JA because I was not proposing a change to the MOS. I wanted to ask members of the project why the rule is this way in the first place. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Also, we shouldn't be using disambiguators just because there is possible ambiguity. Where there is ambiguity, we should establish if there is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I think since Matsuyama, Ehime is a prefectural capital, it is likely a primary topic and would be moved to Matsuyama if the guideline were to be changed. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:40, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- "Matsuyama" is a common Japanese surname.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but it's unlikely that any one person named Matsuyama is a more primary topic than the city. In fact, I just noticed that right now Matsuyama redirects to Matsuyama, Ehime, which just seems bizarre to me. English Misplaced Pages also apparently only has three articles on people named Matsuyama at the moment. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- You know, you're right about all of this. It's unnecessary to have disambiguators for unique city names. The wards that Peter Isotalo points out are a different story (although arguably "Shibuya" is the primary topic).—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- We probably should take into account, though, that when there are "wards" in a Japanese "city", that "city" is in some ways run like a prefecture, and those wards are effectively run like municipalities. In fact, Shibuya (and Shinjuku, etc.) is officially designated as a "city" in English. (The ku also all function similarly to municipalities, in that alien registration and numerous other functions are performed at the "ward office", or in Tokyo the "city office", rather than the shiyakusho.) elvenscout742 (talk) 03:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- You know, you're right about all of this. It's unnecessary to have disambiguators for unique city names. The wards that Peter Isotalo points out are a different story (although arguably "Shibuya" is the primary topic).—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but it's unlikely that any one person named Matsuyama is a more primary topic than the city. In fact, I just noticed that right now Matsuyama redirects to Matsuyama, Ehime, which just seems bizarre to me. English Misplaced Pages also apparently only has three articles on people named Matsuyama at the moment. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- "Matsuyama" is a common Japanese surname.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Before I continue, Elvenscout may I ask why you brough this discussion here instead of WT:MOS-JA in the first place? This seems to be an issue with the manual of style rather than one that needs some sort of pre-argument with the WikiProject. And secondly, I never said that the standard exists and is because of the American MOS. I'm saying that a similar issue happens with American cities. For whatever reason, it was decided (at the MOS page) that only the cities that fall under the umbra of City designated by government ordinance need only be referred to by their singular names, unless there is some need for disambiguation from other topics (although I don't know why we have Shizuoka, Shizuoka and Saitama, Saitama). The example you give for Okinawa, Okinawa might be suitable, as might be removing the prefecture names from other prefectural capital articles, unless, again, there might be other article that there's disambiguation needed (eg. Matsuyama, Ehime). I am not sure the same can be said for all the smaller cities and towns dotting Japan (eg. Ginowan).—Ryulong (琉竜) 02:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Oppose. Summary: a renaming project would achieve conformity to various MOS, but it would be a misguided use of time and resources.
The project would require careful research and evaluation of a very large number of articles in order to rename, disambiguate, and provide data clean-up to all the articles which contain a link to a municipality. This would indeed achieve conformity to the Misplaced Pages standards.
However, the larger issue with Japanese municipality articles is that they're a big collection of stubs. Articles on municipalities often consist of only a few sentences and typically have outdated statistics. These articles also have the crappy situation of high readership statistics, but little useful content for the reader. There are few editors expanding content on municipality articles outside of the tourist cities (Kamakura, Kyoto, etc.). The rest are in sorry condition, and the time required to rename most of the municipalities would be better spent on article expansion.
Question: what's more important to English-language readers of Misplaced Pages: renaming articles, or actually discovering content in those articles?
Expanding these article is what I'm going back to this morning. I wish others would do the same. ---> Prburley (talk) 14:39, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- Ironically, the article for the city of Okinawa mentioned in this discussion is a stub article. As is the article for the Okinawa Islands. The article for Okinawa Island is brief, and the article for Okinawa Prefecture hasn't had any expansion of content beyond a few sentences in years. All have a high readership. In lieu of a renaming project and discussion thereof, would anyone care to expand these articles? ---> Prburley (talk) 14:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- While I do agree with everything you have said, I have to point out that "we have better things to be doing with our time" is not a good reason for fixing the MOS. The only immediately necessary concerns if we were to amend the MOS would be moving the actual pages, which I can't believe would number more than around 1,000. Fixing redirects can be worked on later. Additionally, having the MOS say something is different from immediately forcing everyone on Misplaced Pages to stop what they are doing and fix a bunch of MOS violations. Anyway: I'm moving this discussion over to WPT:MOS-JA as per Ryulong. elvenscout742 (talk) 00:54, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
- "We have better things to do" is kinda self-defeating. It would be like arguing that anyone opposing the suggestion should go fix articles instead of debating the issue.
- Peter 11:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose If we amend the MoS, there would be a lot of exceptions. As far as I know, there is no exception with the current MoS. It is very reasonable. Possible exceptions are Fuchū, Tokyo and Fuchū, Hiroshima, Date, Hokkaidō and Date, Fukushima, Izumi, Osaka and Izumi, Kagoshima, etc. See ja:同一名称の市区町村一覧. As for the city and the prefecture of Shizuoka, they should be like Hiroshima and Hiroshima Prefecture. Oda Mari (talk) 06:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
- We already have exceptions for designated cities, which is really a pretty arbitrary choice when you think of it. The only thing we would need to do is to add a general rule along the lines of "use just <place name> if the name is unambiguous or a primary topic, in other cases, see the disambiguation rules". Where do you foresee problems with that kind of rule? Peter 11:22, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose I do not feel that there is anything wrong with the current MOS, and the "city name, prefecture name" is clear and unambiguous. If anything, I would support doing away with the arbitrary designated cities exception, and standardize the format on "city name, prefecture name" in all instances for consistency. Making exceptions based on what individual editors consider "primary usage" is opening the door to POV --MChew (talk) 07:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- So you suggest moves of Tokyo to Tokyo, Tokyo and Kobe to Kobe, Hyōgo? At least with the designated cities we know that these are the primary usages of these names.—Ryulong (琉竜) 08:06, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Primary meaning has to be decided in all cases. It's not a matter of "POV" but practicality. If naming has any bearing on the issue, it's like to influence doubt in clear-cut cases like Tokyo or Kobe. Peter 11:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Tokyo is not a city - it is a prefectural-level municipality, and thus there would not be any "Tokyo, Tokyo". But I can still see no compelling argument to change the MOS. --MChew (talk) 14:52, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- See question below. And what's the deal with trying to characterize WP:PRIMARY as a POV-problem? Since when did a low-level MOS become a yardstick for neutrality? Peter 17:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Question to those opposing. I browsed through Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names) and noted that there are really only two countries listed there that don't use the common-sense rule of "use <placename> unless disambiguation is needed": the United States and Japan. We all know that "<placename>, <state>" is the standard in the U.S. It's not the standard for Japan, however, and Japan doesn't differ very much from other countries. I would really like to know why the U.S. formula is being forced here. Peter 11:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- I think that there is some confusion between WP:PRIMARY with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. But why object to the current MOS simply because it parrots the style of the US formula? What difference does that make? The Japanese addressing system per Japan Post is based on <prefecture name>, <municipalty name>, <locality address> with the order typically reversed when writing roman letters to suit Western convention, so this format "City, Prefecture" is common in Japan. I still do not see argument that changing the MOS will result in any benefit. Under the present system, there is continuity for all municipality articles and no possibility for disambiguity, with any potential issues over WP:PRIMARYTOPIC easily handled through a disambiguation page. --MChew (talk) 16:27, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, and so is the same for the postal system of every other country in the world as far as I know. So what? In Ireland the postal system goes <locality address>, <municipality name>, <county name>, but Irish articles don't include the county name for every municipality article. The current system is not a "problem", per se, but it also isn't standard on Misplaced Pages, and there still doesn't seem to be a decent rationale for why. Having the simplest form redirect to a page with a disambiguator is counter-intuitive. The exceptions Oda Mari brought up above are a valid concern: we can discuss what to do about them in order to disambiguate them later -- parenthetical "(city)", parenthetical "(city in Hokkaido)", parenthetical "(Hokkaido)", or even keeping the current formatting. But for now we should be addressing the large number (majority? I'm not even sure...) of municipalities like Morioka that have this extremely silly problem. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:14, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Names of modern figures proposal: use macrons
The guideline currently forces us to find out if the person has (or had, if they have passed on) a personal preference (most Japanese don't); then check "encyclopedias" (most have their own spelling conventions, that don't necessarily jive with ours); then check if there is a form "publicly used on behalf" of that person (again, freelance translators and the like have their own preferences); and only if none of these apply are we allowed use our systematic spelling convention. This policy is excessively vague, and in the fast few months has been interpreted in all sorts of ways leading to a large number of ridiculous move requests.
I propose we alter it to say "Unless the person has publicly stated that they prefer the non-macronned spelling, use the macronned spelling."
This would allow us to avoid excessively elaborate interpretations of the people's "personal preferences", etc. as seen here and here, and would allow us to be internally consistent. Additionally, the mention of "encyclopedias" in the MOS, and "reliable sources" in numerous move discussions, seems irrelevant here, as this is not a case where we are dealing with a danger of OR or the like -- we are merely writing Japanese words in the roman alphabet, and we need to decide whether we want a systematic, accurate romanization, or to rely on "reliable English sources".
elvenscout742 (talk) 04:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- This is completely useless. If their official site has them using "O" or "Ou" or "Oh" or "Ow" we use that spelling first. There is no reason to completely throw out an entry in this manual of style because you personally think that it is difficult to determine what is and what is not in use. If the use changes, or if the use is not clear, then the pages should not be moved. But if it is all that is used, that is what Misplaced Pages should use. Macrons should always be the last resort because they are generally unprintworthy.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:52, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- But what about when their official page is entirely in Japanese and they just chose to use a particular spelling in the URL because they can't use Japanese text (or macrons)? Also, what if there is a blatant contradiction between one official source and another? It seems perfectly clear to me that the majority of Japanese people don't care one way or the other, and their names get spelled based on the priorities of freelance translators, web designers, book publishers, newspapers etc. We can never have a clear-cut "this person obviously prefers the macron" (except in cases where we have photos of their signature), because their official homepage will always have a non-macronned URL. Additionally, why should we apply a different standard to people than we do for places? Most Japanese municipalities have official websites that give at least the name of the city/town/village in roman letters, but they almost never use the macron. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:23, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- If there's no English, go with WP:COMMONNAME. If there are contradictions, go with the macron. It's that easy. And we use the same criterion for places. If a city is solely known as "Kobe" when its Hepburn form is "Kōbe", then "Kobe" should be used.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- But these Japanese people don't have "English names"; they are just romanized Japanese names that all use the same romanization system, and are spelled either with or without the macron according to style preferences. The romanization system itself, though, uses macrons as a rule. WP:COMMONNAME clearly doesn't apply here because, as the examples make clear, that rule is for cases where there is an overwhelmingly common English name that differs from the accurate/official name. Most Japanese people are not discussed extensively enough in English sources to qualify for this, and when we use Japanese-language sources we are still supposed to use the macron for accuracy anyway. Your "Kobe" example is flawed, since it is discussed in probably millions of English sources; try Ōshū, Iwate or Ōtsuchi, Iwate, both of which have official websites that spell their names with no macron, but both of which have a macron on Misplaced Pages because there aren't enough sources in English that don't use the macron (and the websites aren't in English either way). elvenscout742 (talk) 05:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Any English text that occurs in conjunction with their name is the best that we can do. I've seen people's names written with macrons. I've seen them without. I've seen "Syu" over "Shu" and "ow" over "ou", "oh", or "o". All that matters is that we have reliable sources that show this usage. If they don't exist, then we cannot make the determination ourselves and go with the macron form. Why does this need to be changed other than the fact that you are disagreeing with the outcome of two requested moves? If it's not broken, don't fix it. Because they are modern figures they clearly have romanized names in usage in some form and therefore we do not need to use the Hepburn romanization system, a form used by scholars of the Japanese language, to refer to them. And we go beyond a single URL to determine usage, and in the cases of those cities then we should probably move to the non-macron forms just as we've done for all of the Hokkaido pages.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry for being late. I was delayed. Anyway, if that is the rule (use whatever English text occurs in official sources) then why don't we follow it except for people? The basic guideline as defined in the MOS is to use Hepburn (which includes macrons), and "modern people" and "companies, products, and organizations" are listed as exceptions. But what about place-names? Why does Kobe have no macron but Hyōgo Prefecture, despite the latter's official website not using it? The fact is that almost all Japanese words that include long os and us can be found in some reliable source that spells it with and macron, and more that spell it without. But WP:RS doesn't need to apply here, because reliability is not the issue; this is solely about our choice of style. Sorry to go back to the Neighbourhood example, but the results speak for themselves: 14,800,000 < 49,200,000, but Misplaced Pages doesn't make style choices based on numbers reliable sources. Anyway, I have indicated elsewhere that I would not mind editing Misplaced Pages under a "no macrons in titles rule", but having one rule for people/organizations and another rule for places just seems weird. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Your neighbourhood example is former-British-Commonwealth English vs. US English: I believe that the rule is to use whichever is appropriate for the subject matter.
- As Ryulong says, there have been previous discussions like this and this. I believe that Japanese are allowed quite a bit of leeway as to how they write the romaji version of their name in their passport, but I think it's fair to say that few people use macrons. Stations are another matter: JR writes Tokyo station with a macron, but the Marunouchi subway doesn't. LittleBen (talk) 03:39, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- The neighbourhood example was for article titles. There is only one article called Neighbourhood, and its title doesn't seem to be affected by subject matter.
- As far as I know, Japanese aren't allowed use macrons on their passports. However, very few Japanese seem to care about how their name is spelled in roman letters, since 99.999 times out of 100 they write their names in kanji, hiragana or (god help them) katakana. Accurate romanization of those names, according to a standardized system, should be a priority for us. The general Misplaced Pages policy on this is at MOS:FOREIGN: Use a systematically transliterated or otherwise romanized name (Aleksandr Tymoczko, Wang Yanhong); but if there is a common English form of the name (Tchaikovsky, Chiang Kai-shek), use that form instead.
- elvenscout742 (talk) 04:42, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- A couple of observations:
- (1) A macron is a diacritic mark. What is a diacritic mark?
- (2) The sock-cluster and associated issues probably needs to be out of the way before settling this.
- (3) Elvenscout's comment about "a large number of ridiculous move requests" is quite reasonable. A look at WP:RM shows about 10. The most recent of them today, Yūji Oda → Yuji Oda where there is indeed 1 decorative use of Romaji on what is otherwise an entirely Japanese official website, but where the only substantial Google Books source mention (West, Scandal 2008) actually marks the long vowel. (not clear to me whether WP:JTITLE, "Use the form personally or professionally used by the person (such as on their official website or official social media profile)" includes "...or CD artwork". Yūji Oda, and several of the other current RMs, do not come in the Tchaikovsky, Chiang Kai-shek category of super-notables who have their own non-systematic exceptions to "a systematically transliterated or otherwise romanized name"... but they may still appear in English media. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:40, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- I have placed my !vote on Talk:Yūji Oda based on IIO's excellent analysis above (and collapsed another sock !vote while doing it). We really shouldn't be making exceptions to the general Misplaced Pages rules for relatively minor Japanese actors, writers, etc. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:24, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry for being late. I was delayed. Anyway, if that is the rule (use whatever English text occurs in official sources) then why don't we follow it except for people? The basic guideline as defined in the MOS is to use Hepburn (which includes macrons), and "modern people" and "companies, products, and organizations" are listed as exceptions. But what about place-names? Why does Kobe have no macron but Hyōgo Prefecture, despite the latter's official website not using it? The fact is that almost all Japanese words that include long os and us can be found in some reliable source that spells it with and macron, and more that spell it without. But WP:RS doesn't need to apply here, because reliability is not the issue; this is solely about our choice of style. Sorry to go back to the Neighbourhood example, but the results speak for themselves: 14,800,000 < 49,200,000, but Misplaced Pages doesn't make style choices based on numbers reliable sources. Anyway, I have indicated elsewhere that I would not mind editing Misplaced Pages under a "no macrons in titles rule", but having one rule for people/organizations and another rule for places just seems weird. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:34, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
- Any English text that occurs in conjunction with their name is the best that we can do. I've seen people's names written with macrons. I've seen them without. I've seen "Syu" over "Shu" and "ow" over "ou", "oh", or "o". All that matters is that we have reliable sources that show this usage. If they don't exist, then we cannot make the determination ourselves and go with the macron form. Why does this need to be changed other than the fact that you are disagreeing with the outcome of two requested moves? If it's not broken, don't fix it. Because they are modern figures they clearly have romanized names in usage in some form and therefore we do not need to use the Hepburn romanization system, a form used by scholars of the Japanese language, to refer to them. And we go beyond a single URL to determine usage, and in the cases of those cities then we should probably move to the non-macron forms just as we've done for all of the Hokkaido pages.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- But these Japanese people don't have "English names"; they are just romanized Japanese names that all use the same romanization system, and are spelled either with or without the macron according to style preferences. The romanization system itself, though, uses macrons as a rule. WP:COMMONNAME clearly doesn't apply here because, as the examples make clear, that rule is for cases where there is an overwhelmingly common English name that differs from the accurate/official name. Most Japanese people are not discussed extensively enough in English sources to qualify for this, and when we use Japanese-language sources we are still supposed to use the macron for accuracy anyway. Your "Kobe" example is flawed, since it is discussed in probably millions of English sources; try Ōshū, Iwate or Ōtsuchi, Iwate, both of which have official websites that spell their names with no macron, but both of which have a macron on Misplaced Pages because there aren't enough sources in English that don't use the macron (and the websites aren't in English either way). elvenscout742 (talk) 05:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- If there's no English, go with WP:COMMONNAME. If there are contradictions, go with the macron. It's that easy. And we use the same criterion for places. If a city is solely known as "Kobe" when its Hepburn form is "Kōbe", then "Kobe" should be used.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- But what about when their official page is entirely in Japanese and they just chose to use a particular spelling in the URL because they can't use Japanese text (or macrons)? Also, what if there is a blatant contradiction between one official source and another? It seems perfectly clear to me that the majority of Japanese people don't care one way or the other, and their names get spelled based on the priorities of freelance translators, web designers, book publishers, newspapers etc. We can never have a clear-cut "this person obviously prefers the macron" (except in cases where we have photos of their signature), because their official homepage will always have a non-macronned URL. Additionally, why should we apply a different standard to people than we do for places? Most Japanese municipalities have official websites that give at least the name of the city/town/village in roman letters, but they almost never use the macron. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:23, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose - Spelling the names of Japanese individuals in a way at variance with their own choices is disrespectful. Mysterious Island (talk) 00:21, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- That's ridiculous. Most of the moves you have made recently over this have been based on websites and the like that were likely produced by freelance translators or web designers without any concern for the choices of the people themselves. I have never seen any evidence that real-world Japanese people care about whether their names are spelled according to Hepburn or not. And it's easier to not use a macron, so why would they? elvenscout742 (talk) 01:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- It's better to use a form that has been used at some point than to just use an internal romanization style.—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:39, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Ryulong. It's trivial to research usage in reliable sources, just compare:
- Template:Google RS
- with
- Research it in the Japan Times as well, if you like:
- "Yuji Oda" site:japantimes.co.jp
- Also note that the International Herald Tribune part of the Asahi Shimbun / International Herald Tribune joint venture is the global division of the NYT, which comes out near the top of the above reliable sources search results.
- It's better to use a form that has been used at some point than to just use an internal romanization style.—Ryulong (琉竜) 01:39, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- That's ridiculous. Most of the moves you have made recently over this have been based on websites and the like that were likely produced by freelance translators or web designers without any concern for the choices of the people themselves. I have never seen any evidence that real-world Japanese people care about whether their names are spelled according to Hepburn or not. And it's easier to not use a macron, so why would they? elvenscout742 (talk) 01:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Support. It's also worth reminding our gentle readers that Ryulong's assertion that "If their official site has them using "O" or "Ou" or "Oh" or "Ow" we use that spelling first" is not backed up by the MOS, which requires reliable sources, not self-published ones. Jpatokal (talk) 04:32, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Jpatokal, you are citing the entirely wrong part of the policies and guidelines here. WP:SPS concerns creators of content not related to the subject, such as someone publishing some sort of tell-all book or some fringe theory shit on their blog. What we are discussing instead is the leeway allowed in WP:SELFSOURCE, as we are using information put forward by the subject or their representatives as a means to simply substantiate the way they write their name in the Latin alphabet.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Nope: the MOS says "use reliable sources". Your contentions, which are absent from the MOS, are that a) self-sources should be considered reliable sources for determining correct spelling, which is dubious, and that b) self-sources should even override other reliable sources, which is even more dubious.
- I think the core of Elvenscout's proposal is eminently sensible: instead of the endless inconsistency introduced by the impossibility of trying to ferret out somebody's "personal preference" with only a fallback to a consistent scheme (Hepburn), cluttering half our leads with useless spot-the-macron crap like Tanaka Taro (田中太郎 Tanaka Tarō), we default to Hepburn unless there's good RS evidence that another form is the common usage. Ta-dah: Tanaka Tarō (田中太郎). Or can you tell me with a straight face that the duplicated version adds some actual value or utility? Jpatokal (talk)
- Jpatokal, you are citing the entirely wrong part of the policies and guidelines here. WP:SPS concerns creators of content not related to the subject, such as someone publishing some sort of tell-all book or some fringe theory shit on their blog. What we are discussing instead is the leeway allowed in WP:SELFSOURCE, as we are using information put forward by the subject or their representatives as a means to simply substantiate the way they write their name in the Latin alphabet.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- We should have own consistent style for Romanizing Japanese, and not depend on personal web sites. These sites are produced by agencies, and rarely represent "personal preference." In fact, they are often in Japanese and may included only a few Romanized or English-language words. Since macrons aren't part of the Latin-1 character set, they confuse search engines and are hard to type. So they should avoided unless they actually do represent common use. We already have guidelines for Romanizing Chinese and Korean names that specify no diacritics. If that approach doesn't fly, my second choice is to follow the RS. A lot of these disputes involve actors and directors. For these, there are English-language film references, both international and Japan-specific, which can be consulted. Kauffner (talk) 07:13, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- So you are saying we should ignore all idiosyncratic forms even if they are what constitutes the WP:COMMONNAME? And even if the websites are produced by representation agencies, the name that they use is still the name that is used on behalf of the person professionally, which is how we have also defined the "personal usage" criterion. So long as some sort of Latin alphabet form exists (be it primary, secondary, or tertiary reliable sources) then that is the form Misplaced Pages should use.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- As I mentioned earlier, I believe that Japanese are allowed quite a bit of leeway as to how they write the romaji version of their name in their passport. Maybe the guidelines are published online. So some idiosyncratic forms may be justifiable—and they will appear, the same as on the passport, in reliable sources that care about accuracy. LittleBen (talk) 07:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- <Quote>Maybe the guidelines are published online.<Unquote> I found guidelines from Kanagawa prefecture, Hyogo, and JTB (don't you love the way they suggest "Lico"—in the examples—may be an acceptable variant for "Riko" ;-). I guess that "Lie" might also be an acceptable romanization of a young lady's first name ;-). LittleBen (talk) 09:01, 20 February 2013 (UTC) These documents confirm that macrons are NOT acceptable in romanized Japanese names on Japanese passports. They also list some acceptable alternative romanizations, briefly mentioned here. LittleBen (talk) 23:24, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
- For reference LittleBenW has linked his discussion of diacritics here as part of his discussion of diactritics at one of Joshu Sasori's RMs. I think those discussing here should be aware, since I don't believe that the representation of this discussion there is accurate. And FWIW Beyoncé Knowles passport doesn't have an é on it. Neither do ATMs recognise diacritics. None of that is a good reason for encouraging more daily sock-generated RMs. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:04, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- I linked here for the "legal Japanese name" Japanese passport naming requirement links. Goodness, are you saying that Beyoncé Knowles is a Japanese citizen—or does your comment have nothing to do with Japanese names at all? LittleBen (talk) 05:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- LittleBenW, my concern relates to "Surely everybody is aware that we just had a discussion here that established that macrons are NOT ACCEPTABLE in romanized names on Japanese passports." unquote. I remind you that a macron is a diacritic mark: What is a diacritic mark? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:34, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- LittleBenW, you have now insinuated that the way Japanese people choose to sign their own names when they do so in roman letters is irrelevant, and the orthography rules which one branch of the Japanese government apply to one type of Japanese legal document are more important than the personal choices of those people. Give it up already. elvenscout742 (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- And for the record: apparently the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has no problem with either macrons or apostrophes. Nor do the Mie International Exchange Foundation. Nor do East Japan Railway Company. Nor do the Iwate International Association. Note I am not claiming that it is actually the policy of various branches of Japanese government (and/or private organizations that are so prevalent they might as well be the government) to use macrons. I am only pointing out that they have in recent years published documents that contain them. There is nothing "wrong" with macrons, despite what LittleBenW, JoshuSasori and the latter's various sockpuppets seem to think. elvenscout742 (talk) 15:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- You are misquoting me. I said that—in BLP—a single photo taken maybe 20 or 30 years ago when a person was a young kid (or one CD from the same era) is surely not a reliable guide to how the person thinks now, or currently-accepted practice as demonstrated by all the other later CD covers. I pointed to the rules on characters currently permitted in Japanese passports. Regarding personal preference, I also said that if you were to claim that a Japanese person's personal preference was to write his or her name using Chinese characters that the Japanese government does not permit to be registered in Japanese names, and all the reliable sources showed the name as being written using a government-approved character, you can surely guess what my opinion would be. LittleBen (talk) 15:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Use of "no" in the names of historical figures?
I couldn't find this guideline specifically mentioned here: am I missing something? There appears to be overwhelming consensus on this convention, so can we just add it in? It was recently brought up that a page with "Sugawara no Takasue" in its title should remove the "no" because Britannica doesn't use it. I wanted to point out the relevant guideline here, before noticing that it wasn't here. Should we include it? Or should we start work on moving Sugawara no Michizane, Kakinomoto no Hitomaro, Fujiwara no Michinaga, Minamoto no Yoritomo, Kamo no Mabuchi, ... ? elvenscout742 (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
- Seriously, anyone have a problem with me adding "For the names of historical figures who are conventionally referred to as A no B, follow this convention." to the page? elvenscout742 (talk) 01:11, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- Britannica seems to be the only "reliable" source that changes the transliterations of the Japanese names, but because only Britannica does it doesn't necessarily make it correct. Is there a problem with leaving them at the correct transliterations?
- Google reliable sources for " Sugawara no Michizane"
- For historical figures it's surely best to research usage in books.
- I don't know why the clan name without "no" is common in English Encycropeadias (third source). However "no" following Uji (the clan name given by the emperor) before the Edo era is general in English sources. "Myoji" + "Name" (personal name) reads "Myoji Name", but "Uji" (+ "Kabane") + "Name" generally reads "Uji no (Kabane) Name" (Exeption: Toyotomi - Toyotomi Hideyoshi without "no" is in general use). For example, "菅原孝標" is the following:
- --Mujaki (talk) 19:36, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
Britannica may be the only reliable source that routinely does this for all people who are conventionally known as "X no Y", but many other sources (Donald Keene's Seeds in the Heart: A History of Japanese Literature to 1600 is probably my favourite) place an arbitrary date on when they stop giving "no", so for people who flourished after 1189 we get Minamoto Sanetomo, Fujiwara Teika, etc. This is problematic because both Keene and Britannica are very widely used sources, and if someone were to create an article without "no" based on one of them, we need to be able to move it and say 'the MOS says we should use "no"'. Additionally, a few users have a tendency to bring Britannica into RMs and attempt to shift the RM to be more like Britannica -- as long as the MOS isn't clear on this that is a problem.
Apart from the issue with article titles, the subtitles on Kuroneko refer to Minamoto no Raikō as Raiko Minamoto, and I have seen other such instances: it's therefore possible the articles on these films will use awkward, non-standard naming conventions, so we should specify in the MOS that this is not good.
I don't think it's a good idea to rely on a broad examination of English-language books (maybe Japanese-language books?) because for obscure figures there are likely to be only a few mentions of the person in English-language sources, and if those sources just happen to prefer non-standard nomenclature...
Re Mujaki's concerns: We don't need to worry about the "-" order for other pre-modern individuals, as the MOS already specifies the rule here and no one is ever going to challenge it. I am only concerned with cases where (as with the vast majority of notable pre-Kamakura figures, and a few later ones) the convention is to say "X no Y", but the MOS doesn't currently mention that. I am also not concerned with very well-known people, because the reliable sources will unquestionably back us up. The problem is with relatively obscure figures where a GBooks search won't immediately support "X no Y".
For clarity, this is basically what I would like to add the following sentence to the end of the "Names of historical figures" section:
For historical figures conventionally known as no (Fujiwara no Michinaga, Minamoto no Yoritomo, Kamo no Mabuchi, etc.), include the no.
Now that I think about it, no one actually seems to have a problem, and so I guess I should just go ahead. WP:BRD will apply if anyone has a problem with this.
elvenscout742 (talk) 04:11, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Mixed Names Orders?
In an article including a number of both post-1868 and pre-1868 born individuals, I'm supposed to mix name orders? Really? That strikes me as a "worst of all worlds" take on things, practically guaranteed to cause misunderstandings. Cckerberos (talk) 15:02, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
- Use the full names once and then solely use the family names after. Problem solved.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:08, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
- In most cases, you're probably right. In this case the article includes a list of names, though. That's how I noticed. Cckerberos (talk) 21:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
- Solely using the family names is not necessarily a good idea because so many Japanese people have the same names and a lot of people are primarily referred to by their given names in reliable sources, but I agree with Ryulong on the principle here. It's not really a problem for the reader anyway: it feels awkward for me too, but Japanese-speaking readers are likely to think it's kinda weird and quirky, and everyone else is probably not going to be bothered by it. elvenscout742 (talk) 01:08, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- In most cases, you're probably right. In this case the article includes a list of names, though. That's how I noticed. Cckerberos (talk) 21:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Proposal regarding shrines with "東照宮" or "天満宮"
I might be missing one here, but I think the current guideline to use hyphens before gū kind of screws over these particular classes of shrine. "Tōshōgū" and "Tenmangū" are each one word, and hyphenating them just looks awkward. I am fairly sure the reliable sources will agree with me on this, but I am still trying to figure out how to limit my GBooks and GScholar searches to English...
However, official sources linked to the most famous tōshōgū and tenmangū generally don't use hyphens before the gū.
elvenscout742 (talk) 02:33, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- See the links to previous discussions that I added to the Islands and Names of modern figures discussions above, also see Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/misc25#Jingu and -gu. LittleBen (talk) 03:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- Since my concern is specifically with the hyphen and not about whether to translate, etc., I searched the archives for "hyphen" before posting here. The link you provide shows both you and Dekimasuよ! apparently indicating a distaste for the hyphen, and no one supporting it. So can we change this guideline? elvenscout742 (talk) 04:33, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- I think the issue is essentially the same as the Island one above. It's surely best to follow the majority of reliable sources rather than try to create rules (that there will inevitably be exceptions to). Few people seem to have the time or energy to try to bring the guidelines up to date (User:JoshuSasori seemed to have the experience and energy, but...). LittleBen (talk) 04:45, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- Just tried the archive search box and it seems to be broken. The archives seem to have two URLs: Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/misc and Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/Archive ... LittleBen (talk) 05:10, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- Nihonjoe has kindly fixed the archive search box. LittleBen (talk) 13:01, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that reliable sources are good. However, when it comes to spelling, I think we as Wikipedians are free to elect any of the possible romanization methods. Finding "the majority of reliable sources" is problematic because both GBooks and GScholar list Japanese-language sources that they have romanized according to their preferred style. This is why the non-hyphenated spelling appears to be overwhelming more accepted on GBooks. And since both variations are acceptable and easily verified, WP:V doesn't necessarily apply here, so we don't need reliable sources to back us up.
- On a side-note about bringing guidelines up-to-date: what the hell is up with this page not mentioning the exceptions to the given name-family name order for modern individuals!? 笑 elvenscout742 (talk) 06:41, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- What do you think the "pseudonym" section is for?—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- I noticed that. It reads as though we are supposed to put the pseudonym in western order. Especially the second paragraph, where it says we should make a redirect for the pseudonym in Japanese order. elvenscout742 (talk) 15:06, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that it says "Write the synonym in the order that it appears in Japanese usage", which is why we have Neko Hiroshi and Papaya Suzuki instead of "Hiroshi Neko" and "Suzuki Papaya".—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:52, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't. Check for yourself: it says "If the individual is more well known by family name + given name, a redirect for that should be used as well, and the article should note the multiple ways the name is used.", which seems to be the opposite of what I want, you want, and makes sense. Can we fix it?
- Although an exception for "pseudonyms" in general is problematic. Tadanobu Asano is a pseudonym, too. I suggest rather an exception for cases like the examples you and I have mentioned, where there is some "meaning" to the pseudonym in Japanese order that would be lost if we changed it to western order.
- elvenscout742 (talk) 15:07, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that was how it was treated, particularly after "Kumi Koda" was moved to Koda Kumi.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Scratch that, that was just people harping on "common name" because her name is written as "Koda Kumi" on CDs.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:25, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- What do you think the "pseudonym" section is for?—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:23, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- <Quote>both GBooks and GScholar list Japanese-language sources that they have romanized according to their preferred style.<Unquote> The Template:Google RS that I mentioned is surely a much better guide to how things are done now (current-day styles), rather than how things were done historically in books many years ago. I'd think a site search of the Japan Times and JNTO (in addition to the reliable sources in the template) would provide a sanity check of the template's results. Also, Google ranks search results by perceived reliability and authority: Note that (in the template examples) if you use the template to search for the Sydney Opera House then Australia-based sites come out on top. LittleBen (talk) 12:58, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- It's probably worth looking at the MOS-J on other Wiki projects like Wiktionary About Japanese/Transliteration and Transliteration and romanization. Note that Ryulong has contributed to the former. LittleBen (talk) 13:28, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- I helped Wiktionary conform to the proper Hepburn styles, as they were using a diaresis to differentiate ō from oo and ū from uu, along with turning all aa, ee, and ii into ā, ē, and ī. I did nothing regarding the shrine nonsense.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:22, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
(undent) How would people feel about just dropping the hyphens entirely for temples/shrines? They're awkward and not in line with our conventions for naming anything else. Jpatokal (talk) 22:43, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
- I like that, but given that my last five or six attempts to alter the MOS in tiny ways (like clarifying the wording so that it says what it actually means) have all met with harsh opposition, so I don't want to be the one to suggest a major change like that. (Also, my posting about just these two types of shrines appears to have earned me the enmity of LittleBenW, a fact with which I am not pleased.)
- If you have any idea how to build a consensus about this, I would definitely be on board with your proposal.
- elvenscout742 (talk) 01:11, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- The loudness of a single editor's opposing opinions does not mean there is no support for your proposals. Jpatokal (talk) 04:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- How about a concrete proposal? I don't think anybody is opposing removing hyphens. But it's wise to do adequate research of previous discussions and of common usage before proposing changes. Maybe the lede should explain that the "gu" on the end means shrine, or the "tera" or "dera" means temple. One way might be the "lit" option in the template. Another might be linktext linking the gu or tera/dera kanji to Wiktionary. How to handle other common suffixes is a related issue—I'm not sure if there's a "one size fits all" way: 山 is a related example (but two readings), and 橋 is another (but Shimbashi is now more an area than a bridge). Likewise Roppongi no longer has anything to do with trees. LittleBen (talk) 04:59, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- When I was in Kansai this past December, I can recall the tour guide using "temple" or "shrine" in place of "dera" or "gu" within Japanese. "Kiyomizu Temple" stuck out.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe short names, and names that would be ambiguous without their suffix, generally never lose their suffix—examples are Yamadera and Yodobashi (can't quickly find the bridge—there is one, isn't there?—on English Misplaced Pages)—but well-known, longer names like the four-syllable "Kiyomizu", that are not ambiguous without the suffix, can safely lose it. LittleBen (talk) 07:23, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- We can get tour guides who say just about anything. Translating into English is good in some cases, but then we wind up with "Yama Temple" and "Nikkō Tōshō Shrine", neither of which is backed up by a majority of reliable sources. I occasionally work on translations relating to the Historic Monuments and Sites of Hiraizumi, and if I'm doing it for a general non-Japanese-speaking audience I'll say "Chusonji Temple". Since "Chusonji" is its full, proper name, but "Temple" tells the reader what it is, this is good for tourist pamphlets and business presentations to promote foreign direct investment in Iwate. However, in an encyclopedia article, regardless of what the title is the first line is going to be some variant of "XYZ is a Buddhist temple in Japan.", so we don't need the title to have "Temple" in English. "Chūson-ji" and "Chūsonji" are both acceptable as far as I am concerned, but "Chūson Temple" is bad because it cuts off the last part of the Japanese name (which readers will see in other reliable sources), and "Chūsonji Temple" is redundant.
- My main problem with the current guideline though is that it doesn't acknowledge exceptions like the above-mentioned 東照宮 and 天満宮 (and 八幡宮, which I forgot). The current convention gives the impression that "Nikkō Tōshō" is the name, and "gū" means shrine, which is technically incorrect (a "Tōshōgū" is a particular classification of shrine).
- elvenscout742 (talk) 15:07, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- When I was in Kansai this past December, I can recall the tour guide using "temple" or "shrine" in place of "dera" or "gu" within Japanese. "Kiyomizu Temple" stuck out.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:15, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- How about a concrete proposal? I don't think anybody is opposing removing hyphens. But it's wise to do adequate research of previous discussions and of common usage before proposing changes. Maybe the lede should explain that the "gu" on the end means shrine, or the "tera" or "dera" means temple. One way might be the "lit" option in the template. Another might be linktext linking the gu or tera/dera kanji to Wiktionary. How to handle other common suffixes is a related issue—I'm not sure if there's a "one size fits all" way: 山 is a related example (but two readings), and 橋 is another (but Shimbashi is now more an area than a bridge). Likewise Roppongi no longer has anything to do with trees. LittleBen (talk) 04:59, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- The loudness of a single editor's opposing opinions does not mean there is no support for your proposals. Jpatokal (talk) 04:34, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
General guidelines - Syllabic "n"
In items 4 and 5, "Syllabic n ん is generally written ... as n' (with an apostrophe) before vowels and y" has surely not applied for a long time. LittleBen (talk) 14:17, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Like...? Apart from super-notable people named "Junichiro" or "Shinichiro", I honestly can't think of a single example of where we don't apply this rule. elvenscout742 (talk) 14:38, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- 禁煙 is kin'en. 万有 is ban'yū. I'm fairly certain there's a page at "Shin'ichi" or "Ken'ichi" somewhere.—Ryulong (琉竜) 14:51, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- Could it be that both versions are generally considered acceptable usage (apart from the official, passport issue)? It would be useful to add those examples. Like the macron, it has its uses for explaining to foreigners how to pronounce words, even though it is not acceptable in passport names. LittleBen (talk) 05:03, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- My point exactly, as expressed below (and on your talk page since I didn't notice you had already posted here). I'm frankly sick of seeing people (one person...) going around RMing every single article on a Japanese person with a long "o" or "u" in their names, just because some Wikipedians have a personal preference for one acceptable style over another acceptable style. But in the case of the apostrophe (unlike the macron) I'm pretty sure there is no official rule against using the apostrophe anywhere, and treating the lack of an apostrophe as a legitimate variant (i.e., not having this mentioned in the MOS) would prevent us from fixing legitimately problematic cases. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:20, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Because common name (romaji spelling) in English and/or romaji sources does not always follow strict modified Hepburn. If we want to follow WP:COMMONNAME, we will often disregard the modified Hepburn.-Mujaki (talk) 20:21, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
- We don't need to follow WP:COMMONNAME when there is no common name. Most Japanese people, places, concepts etc. are not commonly known in the English-speaking world. They will appear in specialist sources and be written according to the romanization conventions of those specialist sources. They're not being commonly known doesn't mean they are not notable, and those of us who live in Japan and have only limited access to English-language reliable sources are free to write articles on Misplaced Pages based on Japanese sources. When we do this, we need a standard way of romanizing the Japanese names, etc. that come into it. Changing the current MOS solely because a few articles on super-well-known modern people are currently exceptions to the MOS is silly.
- As a related aside, not here, but recently the Japan Times has been brought up a few times in RMs. The Japan Times is a good newspaper -- I read it myself -- but it doesn't have a broad (paper) circulation outside Japan, and within Japan hardly anyone other than resident foreigners read it; this is why I think it can't be used as a source for the "common spelling" of anything. Hypothetically, if we had an article on the Shōmonki first, and then in 2014 a new translation of the work came out that used "The Tale of Masakado" as its title, the Japan Times might print a book review of the new translation and say "The Tale of Masakado is a translation of the classical Japanese work, the Shomonki, which tells the story of Taira Masakado." I know someone would then come along and try to move the page on the Shōmonki because the Japan Times called it "Shomonki", and they would probably try to take the "no" out of Taira no Masakado, even though both ways of writing both of these names are acceptable.
- elvenscout742 (talk) 02:32, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Would you mind revealing why you are so hung up on the fact that we do not follow the Hepburn romanization system in every single instance? It seems like every single complaint you have made on this page is in regards to the exceptions we allow because Hepburn looks ugly?—Ryulong (琉竜) 03:27, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- I already did just above: those of us who live in Japan and have only limited access to English-language reliable sources are free to write articles on Misplaced Pages based on Japanese sources. When we do this, we need a standard way of romanizing the Japanese names, etc. that come into it. Constantly RMing every single page that was written based on Japanese sources, just because someone somewhere left out the macron, is ridiculous. I have said numerous times now that I would accept a blanket rule against using macrons in article titles (at least on modern individuals, similar to the current naming-order thing) if such were imposed. Basically, I would be happy if we had an MOS similar to the Japan Times one. My problem with the current system is that it leaves the door open to disruptive users who simply want to go around removing macrons for the hell of it. And the leader of those disruptive users (actually, I think he's the only one) has been hounding me across dozens of articles over the last two months and has made real-world threats against me. elvenscout742 (talk) 03:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ignore him. The system we have is fine because otherwise we would be ignoring the blatant proper forms of the names of individuals like Romi Park (article was at "Romi Paku" for the longest time), Sin-Itiro Tomonaga, etc. The sources we have should be sufficient because spending your time battling one persistant annoyance is only getting in the way of improving the project.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:03, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Of the two examples you name, Mr. Tomonaga is an obvious quirky exception and one I quite approve of, while Ms. Park falls into MOS:KOREA territory as well as here, so using the systematic romanization of Korean names makes perfect sense. Additionally, both of these people have a clear preference for one style over another, rather than their names just having to have appeared in a simplified form one place, and a less-simplified form in other places. For every one exception like these, there are a thousand others whose names can be adequately written one of a number of ways, and who clearly don't have a personal preference, but whose names are listed somewhere without a macron, and probably somewhere else with a macron, solely based on the stylistic choices (or technical limitations) of other external organizations. I have also said a few times that it would be nice if we accepted either style, and treated attempts to go around changing thousands of articles from one acceptable spelling to another, based on the personal preferences of Wikipedians, the same way we treat attempts to replace British spelling with American and vice versa. Similar to WP:RETAIN. Non-Japan-oriented Wikipedians who dislike the macron actually appear to agree with me on this issue. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Park is a Japanese citizen of Korean descent. And bringing the WP:ENGVAR stuff is just going to cause more problems. The best we can do is to examine the reliable sources that we have access to. If they write their name a particular way, and if that particular way lacks a macron, then by all means we should use that way and not enforce an the use of what is already an unpopular romanization style on our articles.—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:00, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Her surname is still Korean. And are you saying we should change the MOS so that it doesn't say "Misplaced Pages uses the version of Modified Hepburn described below because it is generally accepted by scholars and it gives a fair indication of Japanese pronunciation to the intended audience of English speakers"? If the initial proposal for this section that we drop the apostrophes were to go through, we would have to change this line anyway as it would be factually inaccurate. It's not just people either -- you can find official and/or reliable websites for temples and shrines that give no macron. In the aforementioned Hiraizumi case UNESCO uses circumflexes. Every single Japanese person, place, book, song, whatever that has ever been discussed anywhere in the roman alphabet was subject to the style choices of the source that discussed it. Donald Keene wrote a 4,000-page history of Japanese literature that name-checked just about every notable poet and author in Japan between Emperor Yūryaku and Mishima Yukio, and he's probably the most reliable source available for most of them, and used macrons everywhere he could. I'm sure there are comparable works on Japanese film, politics, etc. that do the same, but there will always be a whole lot of websites that either choose not to use the macron for anyone. elvenscout742 (talk) 06:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Park is a Japanese citizen of Korean descent. And bringing the WP:ENGVAR stuff is just going to cause more problems. The best we can do is to examine the reliable sources that we have access to. If they write their name a particular way, and if that particular way lacks a macron, then by all means we should use that way and not enforce an the use of what is already an unpopular romanization style on our articles.—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:00, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Of the two examples you name, Mr. Tomonaga is an obvious quirky exception and one I quite approve of, while Ms. Park falls into MOS:KOREA territory as well as here, so using the systematic romanization of Korean names makes perfect sense. Additionally, both of these people have a clear preference for one style over another, rather than their names just having to have appeared in a simplified form one place, and a less-simplified form in other places. For every one exception like these, there are a thousand others whose names can be adequately written one of a number of ways, and who clearly don't have a personal preference, but whose names are listed somewhere without a macron, and probably somewhere else with a macron, solely based on the stylistic choices (or technical limitations) of other external organizations. I have also said a few times that it would be nice if we accepted either style, and treated attempts to go around changing thousands of articles from one acceptable spelling to another, based on the personal preferences of Wikipedians, the same way we treat attempts to replace British spelling with American and vice versa. Similar to WP:RETAIN. Non-Japan-oriented Wikipedians who dislike the macron actually appear to agree with me on this issue. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:24, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ignore him. The system we have is fine because otherwise we would be ignoring the blatant proper forms of the names of individuals like Romi Park (article was at "Romi Paku" for the longest time), Sin-Itiro Tomonaga, etc. The sources we have should be sufficient because spending your time battling one persistant annoyance is only getting in the way of improving the project.—Ryulong (琉竜) 04:03, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- I already did just above: those of us who live in Japan and have only limited access to English-language reliable sources are free to write articles on Misplaced Pages based on Japanese sources. When we do this, we need a standard way of romanizing the Japanese names, etc. that come into it. Constantly RMing every single page that was written based on Japanese sources, just because someone somewhere left out the macron, is ridiculous. I have said numerous times now that I would accept a blanket rule against using macrons in article titles (at least on modern individuals, similar to the current naming-order thing) if such were imposed. Basically, I would be happy if we had an MOS similar to the Japan Times one. My problem with the current system is that it leaves the door open to disruptive users who simply want to go around removing macrons for the hell of it. And the leader of those disruptive users (actually, I think he's the only one) has been hounding me across dozens of articles over the last two months and has made real-world threats against me. elvenscout742 (talk) 03:44, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- Would you mind revealing why you are so hung up on the fact that we do not follow the Hepburn romanization system in every single instance? It seems like every single complaint you have made on this page is in regards to the exceptions we allow because Hepburn looks ugly?—Ryulong (琉竜) 03:27, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I can't tell what the hell we're talking about anymore. I'm saying we stop trying to change everything just because JoshuSasori is being a pain in the ass to you.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:34, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- I'll drop the macron thing then. As far as I can tell (and I've pointed this out already) JoshuSasori has absolutely nothing to do with the other issues being raised. The issues of concern to me (and the other people posting here) at the moment are:
- hyphens
- apostrophes
- naming order for modern individuals whose pseudonyms are meaningless if they are put in western order
- the use of no in the names of historical individuals
- the disambiguators used for municipality-names
- (The islands thing, judging by Jpatokal's comment, appears to be solved, but I really don't know.)
- Of the above: 1. applies a general rule across the board without regard to RSs or common sense; 2. you gotta ask LittleBen, because I don't have any problem with the status quo; 3. you and I are in agreement, and convention agrees with us too, so all that needs to be done is to change the wording of the MOS to reflect this convention; 4. overwhelming consensus/convention is already on my side, and all I want to do is include a mention of this in the MOS so this doesn't happen again and potentially lead to very weird/unintentional exceptions; 5. this is actually a controversial issue and one I'm prepared to compromise and/or drop if need be. elvenscout742 (talk) 08:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
- I only asked about item 2 (apostrophes); Ryulong suggested that there are still cases where they are used (though they are probably in a minority, because—like macrons—apostrophes do not seem to be acceptable in Japanese passports). However, macrons and apostrophes are surely both acceptable in the Hepburnish explanation of pronunciation in the lede, even though they no longer seem to be widely used in English (of course, majority usage—backed by reliable sources—should be taken into account; for WP:BLP the decision should not be based just on one instance of the person's possible personal preference or style dated 20 or 30 years ago). LittleBen (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages is not based on passport guidelines. Please stop taking my comments out of context. If you dislike the apostrophe please vote against me (and JoshuSasori) on Talk:Kanami#Requested move. I'm sure you will be able to convince the Misplaced Pages community with you brilliant arguments that the slight minority of reliable English sources are right on this issue. elvenscout742 (talk) 15:07, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Microsoft Windows/Multilingual support RfC
may be of interest. LittleBen (talk) 04:38, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Homard - invalid examples
What's with the examples in the second part of "general guidelines" section 2? One example (Homard) is on the french WP, not this one. The other example is an article related to China, not Japan. So both the examples are ones to which this policy actually doesn't apply. Cesiumfrog (talk) 09:59, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
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