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Revision as of 05:39, 6 March 2013 editSineBot (talk | contribs)Bots2,555,318 editsm Signing comment by 184.91.1.9 - "→Violence against men: "← Previous edit Revision as of 06:32, 6 March 2013 edit undoReyk (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers33,854 edits →Violence against men: -rm erroneous sig. Unlikely that an editor would vote twice, the second time while logged out but with their real sig. Feel free to revert if I am wrong.Next edit →
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*'''Strong Keep''' This is an important topic that belongs on Misplaced Pages. The page as is needs some work but can act as stub from which to start from, and draw interested editors to.] (]) 16:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC) *'''Strong Keep''' This is an important topic that belongs on Misplaced Pages. The page as is needs some work but can act as stub from which to start from, and draw interested editors to.] (]) 16:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep'''. Regardless of the condition of the article text, there is a topic here to describe to our readers. Of course it should be free of synthesis and bias. ] (]) 04:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC) *'''Strong Keep'''. Regardless of the condition of the article text, there is a topic here to describe to our readers. Of course it should be free of synthesis and bias. ] (]) 04:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' This isn't a majority vote guys, remember that. Regardless of our attempts to make a relevant article with real sources, this will most likely get canned in the political favor of the feminists bias towards men... I mean, look what you're doing to us RIGHT NOW. We can't talk about domestic violence, but you can? Should we just sit idly by while they silence us? Does domestic violence matter? Is it even real? ] (]) 23:37, 5 March 2013 (UTC) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> *'''Keep''' This isn't a majority vote guys, remember that. Regardless of our attempts to make a relevant article with real sources, this will most likely get canned in the political favor of the feminists bias towards men... I mean, look what you're doing to us RIGHT NOW. We can't talk about domestic violence, but you can? Should we just sit idly by while they silence us? Does domestic violence matter? Is it even real? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
*'''Keep''' as the topic itself is notable and is part of a series of topics on violence, for example ]. ''']''' (]) 02:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC) *'''Keep''' as the topic itself is notable and is part of a series of topics on violence, for example ]. ''']''' (]) 02:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 06:32, 6 March 2013

Violence against men

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Violence against men (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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I'm on the fence about this one. I could conceive of sufficient improvement to this article such that it would be worth keeping, but even then, WP:TNT may be more appropriate, as very little to none of the current content would belong in a quality treatment of the subject. As it stands, the article is a big, messy bit of synthesis. The wicker man seems totally irrelevant. The military bits are misguided—that's violence committed against people because they're soldiers, not because they're men. The summary of domestic abuse is probably the only thing that really belongs here. Is that enough? I'm not sure. What do you think? BDD (talk) 22:28, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Indented line The wicker man bit does seem a tad bit odd in it's current state; perhaps we could phase it into a section on historical perspective and/or historical examples of violence against men, describing cultural/historical trends or examples of violence against men. As for the military section, the particular bit on treatment of soldiers in war because they're men does not quite fit, but perhaps there are other instances relevant to war where violence is committed uniquely/differently against men (for example, when Homer describes the men being killed/slaughtered and the women and children being sold into slavery instead). Kiaomi (talk) 04:29, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sexuality and gender-related deletion discussions. --BDD (talk) 22:38, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep If you delete an article about violence against men, you must also delete articles of violence against women, violence against children, violence against animals, violence against aliens, or whatever other nonsense exists. Lump all articles about violence into Violence, or delete all of them. Deleting one sends mixed messages, such as, violence against men is irrelevant or unimportant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.36.84.4 (talk) 12:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete there could be an article Domestic violence against men, however lumping together all kinds of violence just because of the gender of the victim is OR, and in this case creates a not very useful article. BigJim707 (talk) 23:47, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete Apologies for not assuming good faith, but it does seem like it has been created as a rebuttal to feminism that just throws together a lot of things in which men have allegedly suffered for being men (even if their gender is in reality incidental). A lot of it is, as mentioned by previous contributions, totally irrelevant - "Misuse of domestic laws against men"? This POV-pushing is suggested by comments like "Acid throwing, men are victims of these attacks too, about 20% of victims are male", and "see also" links to masculism as well as even less relevant topics like prison rape. Might be salvageable via total rewriting, but I'd need proof that violence of men is a distinct topic covered in its own right by reliable sources. --Colapeninsula (talk) 13:01, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
    • I don't see any where in the article that states violence against men as a concept requires gender to be a motivator. While i would agree the article needs work, AGF policies exist for a reason, And saying sorry doesn't excuse you from them. Kyleshome (talk) 17:20, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep Reading the Violence Against Women page it seems that the only reason to remove this page is that it seems to offend some people who dont either agree that violence against men is possible or it is an attempt to censor an opposing viewpoint. I do agree that it needs a rewrite but there are quite a few articles and studies that show that IPV intimate partner violence is not just perpetrated against women by men but also by women. To simply delete something because you dont happen to agree with it sets a very bad precedent. Sabotage6 (talk) 14:31, 1 March 2013 (UTC) This template must be substituted.
  • Delete with no bias against recreation if someone manages to pull together sufficient sources to write a non-synthetic page on the subject. Unsalvageably synthetic as it stands. (And the only parts that really seem to belong in the article make it seem a lot like a POVFORK.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 03:23, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep statistics clearly show that domestic violence against men exists nearly at the rate it does against women, and for many other types of violence men are the vast majority of the victims. There are other things I could point out, but that would violate WP:SOAPBOX. Zerbu 03:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
I look forward to seeing the figures to support the claim that "statistics clearly show that domestic violence against men exists nearly at the rate it does against women" when you post them at the Domestic violence against men article. Carptrash (talk) 03:24, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep In addition to the info already on the page there're plenty of additional studies proving men are at higher rates of receiving mental & emotional as well as physical abuse in relationships in the US and much of Europe. There's also been some fantastic reporting recently in the British press about rape as a weapon of war against men that should be added. This is not a narrow topic, and it's very much unrecognized not due to lack of research & information but due to a lack of representation.SLEPhoto (talk) 04:21, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep The information presented here doesn't seem to be factually inaccurate and while some of the focus of the writing could be improved that doesn't seem to merit deletion. As to comment on the statement "That happens to soldiers not men" overlooks the entire point of mentioning the military. Jirekianu 20:26, 1 March 2013
  • Keep The article is a bit of a mess in terms of word choice, proofreading, and grammar; however, that can be fixed in time. The article presents a valid and not well known issue that, according to some mentioned sources, has a potentially large presence in today's world. Another possibility is the article be merged with the Violence Against Women article to create some sort of a violence based on gender article, or similar article on violence. Kiaomi (talk) 04:29, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep The article does not raise issues which are not factually inaccurate. Indeed, it's understood gender based violence can occur to either sex. In truth, the fact that it seems to occur with more rarity against men elevates the academic interest in documenting specific examples. While, I. It's current form, it appears to be incomplete and poorly written, so are most nascent articles on Misplaced Pages and therefore a component of the process of maturation any page undergoes. Over time, with expert curation, this article may be very interesting to read. That can't happen, of course, it it gets deleted.  Jeremiah (talk·cont) 05:04, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep- the article needs a lot of work, but it is definitely not unsalvageable. Reyk YO! 05:31, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • The only non-synthetic content as far as I can see is the paragraph under domestic violence. That paragraph was cherrypicked from our main domestic violence article, which makes this article seem even more like a POVFORK than it did to me at first. (I say cherrypicked because it presents Fiebert's research without including a mention of the incredible major criticisms of it.) A redirect to domestic violence would be way better than this as a standalone article. Kevin Gorman (talk) 08:43, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep- I think the necessary answer to a poor article on a controversial subject is to improve the article, rather than delete it. Indeed the controversy around the issue (not the controversy around the deletion) suggests against deletion. An article like this should include statistics, historical accounts, representative anecdotes, legislation and court decisions, societal attitudes, representation in media, and so forth. Alternatively, if this article doesn't stand alone, then it shouldn't be deleted until some capable users agree to integrate the concepts that would have belonged here into other articles related to gender-based violence. 24.57.210.141 (talk) 07:54, 2 March 2013 (UTC) 
Template:Unsigned IP -->
You're surprised that a group dedicated to raising awareness about domestic violence against men (among other things) is for keeping an article about violence against men? Charwinger21 (talk) 09:56, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Keep. There is a review article in a "real journal" on the topic. There are also some general articles on domestic violence with significant coverage of male versus female injuries, self-reporting, etc.: This one has 87 citations and this has 560 citations. For these last two, just from the title, it is clear that male injuries are a significant part of the reports and that it is of interest to look at that subcategory of injuries.

The article should be constrained to domestic violence against men (and given that title). It's of interest in at least a "man bites dog" way. Cut the general violence stuff (Wicker man and Julius Ceasar). To be well written the article should have at least some discussion of differences/similarities in domestic violence against women. (It could just be a section within domestic violence, but it's obviously expandable to full article status.)

BTW, I agree that the article seems like some sort of "men's rights" thingie (which is even lamer than the "take back the night" marches of college students). And it's poorly written. But what should be addressed here is notability, not slant. There are lots of crappy, slanted or "crappy and slanted" articles on the Wiki.

TCO (talk) 16:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment - Many people who are commenting on the fact that domestic violence against men should be discussed are missing the point: the problem is the title of this article - "violence against women" is a recognized generic term used by the UN and most international organizations; it is specifically defined by the UN. There is a Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women and son on, there is nothing similar in regard to "violence against men". You may believe it's unfair, but WP goes with what sources say. Domestic violence against men can and is discussed in the general domestic violence article.2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk) 17:08, 2 March 2013 (UTC) — 2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Note: An editor has expressed a concern that 2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. ()
Kyleshome (talk) 17:28, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. It can be edited. One could argue that almost no violence against men is because they're men but because they're, e.g., husbands, but in almost all cultures to be a husband or to be a military servicemember usually requires being male. I don't know whether religious sacrifices were genderally specific (I imagine many were and religion may be an area in which explicit requirements for maleness may be found) but one sacrifical custom in a South American Indian society reputedly was of sports winners and in many cultures, for some sports, they would almost always be male (this sentence would be wrongful synthesis but is stated as a clue to research). In the U.S., by far most people awaiting criminal capital punishment are male, suggesting that maleness is almost necessary to doing the activities that get one sentenced to death. Anti-husband violence by wives occurs often enough and sourceably enough to be notable but is generally less violent and less frequent than anti-wife violence by husbands, also sourceable, and the difference is a feminist issue, also sourceable. The article should not be narrowed and retitled; instead, if content grows enough, an article on domestic violence against men can be spun off and this article then edited to summarize that one. I've seen print media on violence against men and have no doubt of reliable sources' existence. Nick Levinson (talk) 17:11, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Comment- I understand what you're saying, but to have an article titled "violence against men" you'll have to provide sources to show that this term is actually recognized and used internationally, that it is a mainstream term acknowledged globally, like the term "violence against women". The types of violence that you describe and do happen can be discussed in specific articles dealing with these issues.2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk) 17:20, 2 March 2013 (UTC)— 2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Note: An editor has expressed a concern that 2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. ()
"*Domestic violence against men
On that note: I fail to see how NOR requires worldwide/widespread recognition to the degree you suggest. Kyleshome (talk) 17:28, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Comment -You are completely misunderstanding. The term "violence against men", by itself, it not a globally, stand-alone, recognized term like "violence against women" is. It is used in various sources to deal with specific forms of violence and specific situations, but is not an international generic term.2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk) 17:41, 2 March 2013 (UTC) Note: An editor has expressed a concern that 2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. ()
And i'm going to ask you again, where does it state this in Misplaced Pages policies. I don't see it in WP:N Kyleshome (talk) 17:47, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Can you provide any evidence that the general public can't recognize what "violence against men" is? The meaning seems fairly straightforward. --Squirtlekin (talk) 18:47, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Comment -This isn't about the general public recognizing what it is; it is about whether the term "violence against men" is recognized by reliable sources, globally as a generic term. And the discussion wasn't about whether specific forms of violence that happen to men should or should not be discussed in various articles (they should obviously), but whether an article with this title is appropriate. An article "violence against ...." should be created only if there is a consensus in reliable sources that such forms of violence are recognized internationally (by international bodies) as a specific type of violation. eg Violence against LGBT people. A specific type of violation that the respective group experiences because of the position it has occupied/occupies in society.19:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk) Note: An editor has expressed a concern that 2A02:2F0A:501F:FFFF:0:0:BC19:AC67 (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion. ()
Comment Sole use of a concept or existence of a concept, brings with it as its necessary condition of existence negative concepts to such a concept, eg. Concepts which are used in negative definition of such a concept. What the thing is not. The extent of the definition or negative definition is established by understandability of defined concept, how many "it is..." or "it is not..." is necessary for us to distinguish it from other concepts. This happens most visibly with most opposite concepts, those which are most necessary for definition, understanding and since one of the basic categories of lived world is Woman/man – it. Than the reasonability of existence of a disputed term and its content is encompassed in the existence of opposite term, eg. violence against woman. The generic use of aforementioned concept comes hand in hand with generic existence of the other, although perhaps not so visible. Thus Non-genericty should not be a valid argument for its deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.103.192.107 (talk) 20:55, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  •  Comment: This article was, as BDD notes in the nomination, full of irrelevant material, and a coatrack for "men's rights" material. I've removed all of that, and provided descriptions for some of the relevant citations that were already present. I think it now has the potential to be developed into a useful article. — Hex (❝?!❞) 17:56, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep Just because an entry is controversial or discusses concepts which conflict with other editor's pet paradigms and agendas, does not mean it should be tossed down the memory hole. A cursory search for the term shows numerous reliable sources and that the term is in common usage. - CompliantDrone (talk) 18:54, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
AfD !votes, to have any weight, must include policy based rationales. Inappropriately attacking another editor is not a policy based rationale. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep This is a major topic in gender studies and the article has numerous reliable sources. Just because the article is a stub at the moment does not mean it cannot be edited and become a well written article. The deletion tag should be removed since Hex has repaired the article to a state that does not meet Misplaced Pages's criteria for deletion. Element9. TALK 21:13, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Changed from" Keep" to TOSS OUT. Somewhere someone said something like "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." For many at wikipedia this means constantly monitoring articles such as this one from the one-article-editors, the-unregistered-editors the-agenda-pushers, and the other fringe types drawn to this and related topics. We keep up our relentless chant of "good sources" and "no opinions" and "you can't reference blogs" and they keep up their endless inane, sophomoric parroting of whomever they have chosen to repeat without having thought about or really understood much of anything. So me must (opinion) allow them their articles and subject those to the same stringent requirements that we a;ready labour under in our editing. Remember, we are the good guys, keep the article, bookmark it on your watch list and I'll see you around. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 22:07, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I am now convinced, that, yes, the topic as "Violence against men" is too broad to be useful. It would start with a "History of war" for 37 paragraphs and go from there to sports and even to domestic violence and would be useless. I now realize that if I am not prepared to write the article myself it should go because I see no one here who is really going to do a credible job of it. Thanks G-Man for getting me to rethink my position. Carptrash (talk) 03:20, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure there could be a good article here, but no one wants to write one. This article, for as long as it has existed, has been a POVFORK. If all POVFORK content is removed, nothing is left that isn't already better covered in other articles. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:18, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Most references to it as a subject talk about specific issues and thus it should be focused on gender-specific issues. Women have been actively engaged in violent conflicts and blood sports for as long as men, though typically on a lesser scale as far as being participants in them, so the idea that "violence against men" is too broad a topic could be just as easily applied to "violence against women" if you put it that way.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 04:19, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep The subject is plenty notable as a unique phenomenon with different cultural implications. There are many avenues this article could explore that it doesn't, so this is definitely a subject worthy of its own article.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 03:07, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete with bias against recreation This has already been deleted twice. It reeks of a political agenda. The subject is so broad as to be meaningless. It is not a term of art in any extant body of scholarship. further, the points raised in the article, particularly those frequently cited by other keep-voters (cf. Violence against women) are all covered in other articles (such as Domestic violence, which largely avoids specifying genders). -- #_ 11:55, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

information Note: The following four comments moved from the talk page for the article. where they had been placed by mistake. — Hex (❝?!❞) 14:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

  • Keep. The page is a good starting point to enhance the discussion of domestic violence directed towards males. IPV (Intimate Partner Violence) studies from numerous groups to include the CDC, NIH as well mental health journals cite numerous topics that should allow both sides of an issue to be presented equally. With the current reauthorization of VAWA along with its many detractors because of funding and its lack of controls towards violence against men, domestic violence in LBGT relationships and other controversies make it necessary. I have listed a few sources that would allow for expansion and if it is determined would not be against taking over admin of this page.
ABSTRACT: Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships,women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women (adjusted odds ratio =2.3; 95% confidence interval =1.9, 2.8), but not men (AOR=1.26; 95% CI=0.9, 1.7). Regarding injury, men were more likely to inflict injury than were women (AOR=1.3; 95% CI=1.1, 1.5), and reciprocal intimate partner violence was associated with greater injury than was nonreciprocal intimate partner violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator (AOR=4.4; 95% CI=3.6, 5.5).
Conclusions. The context of the violence (reciprocal vs nonreciprocal) is a strong predictor of reported injury. Prevention approaches that address the escalation of partner violence may be needed to address reciprocal violence.
Sabotage6 (talk) 14:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. Domestic abuse against men is a reality and deleting this page will only ensure that it remains unrecognized by the international community
As this study from the University indicates the disparity between genders in terms of spousal abuse is not as wide as previously believed
As well as other governmental studies also indicate a notable rate of female on male violence
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Heroin friday (talk • contribs) 17:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete. Each of the issues brought up in this article would be better suited to the main articles on those subjects. For example, there is already a discussion of domestic violence against men in the domestic violence article. Combining subsections of various articles into a single article based on gender is not only odd, but reeks of a political agenda, and is therefore lacking in NPOV. Contributors should instead address these issues within the context of each article, e.g., sexual slavery, domestic violence, prison sentencing differences, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zetrock (talk • contribs) 00:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. Any reasons to delete this page based on political agenda are equally valid reasons to delete the Violence against women page. By deleting this page and allowing the female equivalent to stand, this is itself an example of political agenda and lack of NPOV. The fate of this page should be tied to the female page, not separated. 60.241.169.85 (talk) 12:16, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is a legitimate issue and a sourced article.--SelfQ (talk) 16:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. So the feminists and gender theorists are now invading wikipedia to spew their vile venom? Feminists are such revolting creatures. There is not a single legitimate reason to delete this article. Strong keep. YvelinesFrance (talk) 16:55, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
What the fuck kind of argument is that?!? Seriously, if that's the best you can offer, please keep the hell away from AfD — you're not helping either your "cause" or this discussion... Carrite (talk) 16:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
This comment was placed on the talk page for this AfD. --BDD (talk) 00:24, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Ah. So this is a politically motivated delete request? Paukkumaissi70 (talk) 13:11, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Delete - previously recreated POV-fork. Largely WP:OR. Just delete and merge the bits into the other relevant articles, of which there are plenty - Alison 07:33, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep - this is a legitimate article of a legitimate phenomenon which a proper encyclopedia is supposed to cover in an encyclopedic fashion. Paukkumaissi70 (talk) 13:11, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Stubify: present article is crap and should be deleted per Alison. Probably a notable topic though, per (some of) the sources presented above, so I don't see the point in deletion. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 15:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename Domestic violence against men (currently a redirect to Domestic violence), which is clearly an encyclopedic topic. This page should be conceived of as a subpage of Domestic violence. Carrite (talk) 16:32, 4 March 2013 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 16:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep This is an important topic that belongs on Misplaced Pages. The page as is needs some work but can act as stub from which to start from, and draw interested editors to.CSDarrow (talk) 16:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. Regardless of the condition of the article text, there is a topic here to describe to our readers. Of course it should be free of synthesis and bias. Binksternet (talk) 04:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep This isn't a majority vote guys, remember that. Regardless of our attempts to make a relevant article with real sources, this will most likely get canned in the political favor of the feminists bias towards men... I mean, look what you're doing to us RIGHT NOW. We can't talk about domestic violence, but you can? Should we just sit idly by while they silence us? Does domestic violence matter? Is it even real? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.91.1.9 (talk)
  • Keep as the topic itself is notable and is part of a series of topics on violence, for example Violence against women. Mar4d (talk) 02:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
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