Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:20, 9 March 2013

• WT:CITE

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Citing sources page.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56Auto-archiving period: 14 days

view · edit Frequently asked questions Why doesn't Misplaced Pages require everyone to use exactly the same style for formatting citations on every single article, regardless of the subject? Different academic disciplines use different styles because they have different needs and interests. Variations include differences in the choice of information to include, the order in which the information is presented, the punctuation, and the name of the section headings under which the information is presented. There is no house style on Misplaced Pages, and the community does not want to have the holy war that will happen if we tell people that they must use the style preferred by scientists in articles about history or the style preferred by artists when writing about science. Editors should choose a style that they believe is appropriate for the individual article in question and should never edit-war over the style of citations. What styles are commonly used? There are many published style manuals. For British English the Oxford Style Manual is the authoritative source. For American English the Chicago Manual of Style is commonly used by historians and in the fine arts. Other US style guides include APA style which is used by sociologists and psychologists, and The MLA Style Manual which is used in humanities. The Council of Science Editors and Vancouver styles are popular with scientists. Editors on Misplaced Pages may use any style they like, including styles they have made up themselves. It is unusual for Misplaced Pages articles to strictly adhere to a formally published academic style. Isn't everyone required to use clickable footnotes like this to cite sources in an article? Yes. Footnotes (also called "<ref> tags") or shortened footnotes are now required in new articles, although some older articles may still use the now-deprecated citation system of inline parenthetical referencing (see WP:PARREF). Why doesn't Misplaced Pages require everyone to use citation templates in every single article? Citation templates have advantages and disadvantages. They provide machine-readable meta data and can be used by editors who don't know how to properly order and format a citation. However, they are intimidating and confusing to most new users, and, if more than a few dozen are used, they make the pages noticeably slower to load. Editors should use their best judgment to decide which format best suits each specific article. Isn't there a rule that every single sentence requires an inline citation? No. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability requires citations based on the content rather than the grammar. Sometimes, one sentence will require multiple inline citations. In other instances, a whole paragraph will not require any inline citations. Aren't general references prohibited? A general reference is a citation listed at the end of an article, without any system for linking it to a particular bit of material. In an article that contains more than a couple of sentences, it is more difficult to maintain text-source integrity without using inline citations, but general references can be useful and are not banned. However, they are not adequate if the material is one of four types of content requiring an inline citation. The article Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. is an example of a featured article that uses some general references. Can I cite a sign? Yes, signs, including gravestones, that are displayed in public are considered publications. If the article is using citation templates, then use {{cite sign}}. You may also cite works of art, videos, music album liner notes, sheet music, interviews, recorded speeches, podcasts, television episodes, maps, public mailing lists, ship registers, and a wide variety of other things that are published and accessible to the public.

To find archives of this talk page, see this list. For talk archives from the previous Manual of Style (footnotes) page see Help talk:Footnotes.

Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

Misplaced Pages Help Project‑class

This page is within the scope of the Misplaced Pages Help Project, a collaborative effort to improve Misplaced Pages's help documentation for readers and contributors. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks. To browse help related resources see the Help Menu or Help Directory. Or ask for help on your talk page and a volunteer will visit you there.Misplaced Pages HelpWikipedia:Help ProjectTemplate:Misplaced Pages Help ProjectHelp Project This page does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.

General references

I do not think that this edit.

If the references in the References section in an article that uses short citations, are not "general references" then how do we describe those entries?

Does a general reference become something else simply because a short citation is added to an article that links to that general reference?

If there are entries in a References section some of which are linked to short citations and others that are not, are the ones that are not general references while those that do are not general references?

-- PBS (talk) 03:03, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Someone changed this to describe all References sections, rather than a General references section, which is used without inline citations (and in fact is rarely if ever used now). So I changed it back. I'm thinking that we should probably remove it. This was discussed before, but I don't recall what the consensus was. SlimVirgin 03:08, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I've clarified it to emphasize that the section is about the use of a general references section alone. SlimVirgin 03:40, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Any major changes that were made were to this section were agreed on the talk page. I do not agree with this change, because you have not first addressed the issue of what do we call the long citations in the general references section if not general references and if we do not call them general references then how to explain that they should be sorted in alphabetical order on author with any other references in that section?

So I don not think that "clarified it to emphasize that the section is about the use of a general references section alone" is constructive change until it is agreed on how to describe whatever we call the References section that includes the full citations when short citations are used.

There is no fire on these changes so lets agree what to change before rushing ahead with changes. -- PBS (talk) 10:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Let's suppose there is an article with a general references section but no inline citations. Two of the sources listed in the references section are to books the third is to an online reliable source. Now suppose that one editor creates a Notes sections and adds a {{unreferenced}} template followed by a {{reflist}} template. Another editor comes along and notices this, and although (s)he does not have access to the off line sources, reads the online source and adds inline citations to the article. I do not think it helpful to change the name we use for the source in the references section to something else just because there is now a new section listing inline citations. If so the paragraph on the advise given has to be expanded to include the new term and to state that it and the "general reference" should be sorted by author, otherwise an editor reading this guideline might think that the sort only applies to "general reference" and not those sources which are linked to short citations. So for clarity and brevity I do not think using separate terms for entries in the references section is a good idea. However I am open to suggestions on this, but I suspect that the names "general references section" and "general reference" have taken on specific meanings and changing usage is likely to be confusing. -- PBS (talk) 13:51, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe a good part of the confusion with citations arise from careless use of terms and concepts, and that we should strive to clarify terminology — especially where specific but unfortunate meanings and usage are starting to settle in. I suggest these definitions (from CMS):

• General reference: a source referred to "generally", not for any specific material.
• Full citation (or "full reference"): the full description of a source, containing the complete bibliographic details to aid in finding a source, and distinguishing between possible variants.
• Short citation (or "short reference"): a citation with sufficient detail to link to a full citation. (Typically used "in-line" to identify the source of specific material.)

Two points to note. 1) A short citation (or cite) implies a full citation (typically collected in reference list). 2) That an editor acknowledges, or even recommends, perusal of a source "generally" in no way precludes referring to it specifically. It is quite reasonable to have a source listed as a reference, and again in a separate (say) "recommended reading" list.

I hope that will help. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:11, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:FURTHER states "The Further reading section ... should normally not duplicate the content of the References section" -- PBS (talk) 23:48, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

A general reference is a citation (in a "References" or similar section) to a source was used while writing the article to find or confirm claims in the article, but the editor didn't provide an inline citation to the source. A "Further reading" section or similar section lists sources that were not used while writing the article, but which are recommended for related information. One source can be both a general reference, and the target of inline citations, if some of the claims that were written while in reliance are followed by inline citations, and other claims lack an inline citation. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:38, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I think we are partly in agreement (e.g., a "reference" possibly being both general and specific), but I think you are confused on some points. E.g., a "reference" can mean the work itself — what I tend to call a source — such as one might find in the reference section of a library. It can also mean the entry — the full citation — that points (or refers) to the work (source), often found in a list of such "references".

Where I disagree with you is the contention that a general reference is a "citation" (ah, perhaps the source?) "used while writing the article" but not used "inline". I say that "general" means just that: a reference to a work (source) in itself, or its entirety. E.g.: in regarding (say) a "book that discusses all these theories" we would cite the book generally, not any specific passage. What makes a reference general is lack of a specificity in the citation, not lack of a citation. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:26, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, an editor writes a Misplaced Pages article, and to confirm certain claims that he put in the article, he reads books titled A, B, and C. The editor then creates a "References" section which contains full bibliographic citations to the three books. But the article contains no inline citations to show which claim came from which book. So the article contains only general references. An editor comes along, adds a new claim, and with it she puts an inline parenthetical citation, which reads "(A 2011)". This citation is inadequate, because it lacks any indication about where in the book the support for the claim may be found, but at least it indicates which book to look in. So the article now contains both general and inline citations, and A is the target of both kinds of citation. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:00, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I think that Jc3s5h and I agree. A full citation to a source contains within it all the information needed to locate that source in a library (usually down to the page). That citation to a source may appear inline, or it may be placed in a general references section which we usually call "References" or "Sources" or "Bibliography" or some such similar name. I think "general reference" is a shorthand for "an entry in the general references section", as opposed to an "inline citation" which is placed within the body of an article (usually within ref tags). In other words it is the positioning of a citation to a source within a Misplaced Pages article which is being described when one says "general reference" not what information within an article that citation supports.

In a well developed article their might be, in the general references section, a citation to an article in a journal which is 10 pages long "pp. 89–99". In the body of the article there might be a short citation to the same journal "smith 2007, p. 95 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFsmith2007 (help)", and only that specific fact on page 95 is used to support information in the Misplaced Pages article. However that one fact has been extracted from page 95 to support the content of the article does not make the full citation to the article in the journal any less of " general reference" -- PBS (talk) 23:48, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Note that in short articles or articles based on a single source the "general references" can often be precise full citations (including page numbers). You can think of it as paragraph based inline citations of sorts, i.e. the article consists only of one (or a very few) paragraph(s), so that the author didn't bother to use footnotes, but rather listed the full citation for the "paragraph sized" article at its end. This is probably also a question of convenience and wikimedia format knowledge, as this approach simply requires less typing and can be used by unexperienced authors not being familiar with WM footnote system. Typical examples might be somthing like Gripenberg_Castle or Rule of Sarrus.--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:00, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

No, PBS and I don't agree. A general reference a full bibliographic citation to a source, but the editor left no information about which claims in the article are supported by that source. If every use of a source is associated with a particular claim by the use of inline citations, then the citations to that source, including both the inline part and, if separate, the full entry in the "References" section, are not general references. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:22, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

  We need a more clarification. First, a general reference can include page numbers, as in: Smith, 2007, "Article", pp. 89-99, Journal. That specifies only the location of the article, not any point in the article; it is a general reference. Likewise, the short cite "Smith, 2007", is also a general reference. But! adding a specification makes "Smith, 2007, p.95" a specific citation. These are usually seen as inline cites, but the defining criterion is not whether it is inline, but whether it is specific.

  Note that "general reference" is not shorthand for an entry in general references section, "as opposed to an inline citation". In fact, those entries are (or should be) general, as they identify works as a whole. Reference to (citation of) any specific parts should be done as a specification on the short cite. That the "full entry" (full citation) is general is irrespective of whether one or more short cites (presumably inline), whether general or specific, refer to it.

To take a swipe at answering Phil's questions (at the top):

1. If by "References section" you mean a bibliography: they are in the form of a general reference. As particular instances: "bibliographical entry"?
2. No: a general reference does not become specific ("something else") because something else links to it.
3. Huh? In general, a general reference (citation) is one that refers to a work as a whole, not to any specific part of it.

~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:57, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about that, I'm used to consider general references exactly as an entry in the (general) reference section as opposed to an inline citation. Maybe we have a language problem here as well, that is the term "general references" is used slightly differently by various authors for years now. The problem is, when you consider general versus specific, there are 2 perspectives to do that. One is looking only at the source itself and check whether it gives a specific page rather than just the "general" publication. This one you described above. But another perspective is to look at the specificity of content assignment to the source instead, i.e. is it assigned to a specific line (inline citation) or the whole content in general (in reference section at the end of the article). From this perspective a general reference is exactly a source given in the reference section (see the examples I've linked above).--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, no doubt about it, we do have a language problem here (reinforced by the years of slightly different usage); that is my starting proposition. But that is ultimately due to different concepts. My hope is that we can reform some of that. But I am running quite late today, so further comments must wait. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 02:20, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I think (though I may be more obtuse this moment than usual) your alternate perspective is where the the source is applied to the article in a general way, not for support of any particular quote, claim, etc. (Right?) An example would be where (say) two lines of sources conflict on some claim, and an editor uses some other sources to evaluate those claims. Or perhaps uses the source for background. But note that citations (even inline) do not have to be associated with specific material in the article. It is quite common to refer to such sources with a "general citation", usually at either the beginning or end, which acknowledges that. E.g.: "Jones and Brown (2001) provide valuable background." Note that such an article-general citation could be source-specific. E.g.: "This interpretation follows the comment of Jones...." In your examples the references are general in both use of the source and application to the article. (Though it might be better if they were specific.) ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:14, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

My understanding of how "general reference" has been used in Misplaced Pages guidelines is much different than J. Johnson's description. As I understand it, a general reference cites a work which generally supports the information in the article, but there is no indication about which claims in the article are supported by the work. Whether a specific part of the work is cited, or the entire work is cited, is a different matter. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:50, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

There is a problem with Kmhkmh's description. A "References" section may be an alphabetical list of full citations to sources, which are listed directly in that section (that is, there is no <references/> tag. There is often a "Notes" section that does contain a <references/> tag and which associates claims in the text with the works in the "References" section. The "References" section may also contain works that are not mentioned in any note. Those unmentioned works are certainly general references. Some of the works in the "References" might have been used both for claims with footnotes and claims without footnotes, so those works are both note targets and general references. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Well yes, the inline citation/footnotes in reference section (if notes is not used) are of course no general references. In that sense general references are entries in the reference section other than footnotes/inline citations.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:17, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I must mostly disagree. As I said above, the entries in a reference usually are general references (e.g., they don't cite specific locations or passages), but being in that location is not what makes them "general". Also, inline citations can be general references (when, again, they don't cite specific locations). There are some other good points here to address, but no time. Later. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 02:21, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

  I would quibble with Jc about "unmentioned works" (not cited in the text or notes) being general references. The application of the work to the article might be in a general way (as I just described in the comment further up), but the reference is general or specific depending on whether the work is referred to in whole or in specific part. In practice this may not be much of a difference because (as I said before) bibliographic entry is general. But it could happen otherwise. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

As I said above a g "general reference" is a shorthand for "an entry in the general references section" ie one that is placed into a references section usually in an alphabetic author list. Those that are placed inline and may be displayed through <references/> or {{reflist}} are inline citations but those are not general references. General reference is defined in Misplaced Pages:Citing sources#Types of citation. Whether the sorted list in references section is used to enhance inline citations, does not change the meaning of what they are.

Often works in the references section that are not coupled to inline citations should either be removed or moved into a "Futhrer reading" section, as they have often been added by editors to the references section, because there was no "Further reading" section rather than because they directly support the text. -- PBS (talk) 01:35, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

PBS and J Johnson are talking about the real world. Misplaced Pages is not the real world. On the English Misplaced Pages, the sole meaning of "general reference" is "any citation that is not an inline citation". It does not tell you anything about the ordering of the full citations, the title of the section (==General references== is quite unusual), or the vagueness of the citation. Here, it just means "not an inline citation", meaning not a "method that allows the reader to associate a given bit of material in an article with the specific reliable source(s) that support it". WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:11, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

  I mostly agree with your observations of what is. But I think it is also a valid observation that citation practice at Misplaced Pages is often poor, and generally confusing. I say this is largely because WP practice and conception has not only diverged from that of the rest of the world (which makes it bewildering for newbies), but become inconsistent in peculiar ways (which makes it difficult even for old salts such as present company). Which is why my viewpoint tends to be of what should be. If there are to be any improvements there will need to be some adjustments to concepts. And it would be preferable that such adjustments be consistent internally, and with the real world.

  "General reference" is a good example of the kinds of ambiguity plaguing us. As I showed above, a reference (citation, whether full or short) can be general in respect of the source used as support, or of the article content being supported. Example: an article might have a statement that some topic is "well studied", supported by citation of several works. That statement is specific content (thus warranting in-line citation) supported by references to several works as a whole (thus general references). Alternately, a reference (whether general or specific in regard of the source) might generally support the article as a whole where (say) an editor feels it provides important background not linked to specific content.

  Part of the problem here is this pernicious notion that content does not need specific (i.e., in-line) citation, that it suffices to say just "it's all in that book". Kmhkmh's example of Gripenberg_Castle shows this: this two paragraph stub relies entirely on just two references (a book and a web page) "generally", meaning no inline citations. Yet it makes makes at least ten specific assertions ("is a wooden manor house", etc.) which would be supported by specific passages in the sources. In this sense "general reference" is just an excuse to not support specific content with specific citation.

  I do not entirely agree with Phil's idea that "general" references should be removed (because I can see a type of general reference I believe is valid). But if we applied that to Gripenberg_Castle there would then be no references. I think a better view would be that content lacking specific citation (i.e., in-line) is subject to removal. If a "general" reference can be the basis for specific references, so much the better.

~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:17, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Well not everybody likes the "one line, one statement equals one inline citation"-approach, which is for many a somewhat formalistic and pointless overkill, which in addition creates visual clutter. Hence those authors used inline citation in more sparse fashion, often paragraph based or in short articles simply list them at the end. The whole point for sources & citations is merely, that checking content against sources is easy enough and is not requiring an unreasonable effort, which depending on the context can be achieved by different formats. The keywords here being "easy enough" and "not unreasonable", there is no requirement for the "easiest". I.e. we should not impose maximally inconvenient formal requirements on our authors, just to achieve the easiest verification option, instead the verification just has to be easy enough.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:33, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

  I think we agree there is a trade-off in how much effort should go into making verification easier, but I disagree that we are imposing "maximally inconvenient formal requirements on our authors". Many editors scamp citation (because it is too confusing? or merely inconvenient?), but the fact remains: WP:V requires that material be supported by sources; that is part of the writing process. That editors find it inconvenient perhaps gets back to the problems we are trying to deal with. At any rate, as one of a seemingly small group of editors that do verify, I find verification of uncited material a LOT harder than adding a citation (with a page number or such) in the first place.

  To get back to Phil's point: if a "general" reference is removed, then it seems (to me) reasonable that any material thereby unsourced should also be removed. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:37, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no argument about the need for (specific) sources. The argument was about the format of those specific sources (placemenent of inline citations, general references). In connection with Gripenberg example all one has to do to verify the content is to read the 2 (short) general reference, wich is easy enough, i.e. no unreasonable effort is required.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:09, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

  I am a little perplexed by your comment, so help me understand this. The first reference at Gripenberg is to a book of some 500 pages. (That it's also in German, not quite "easy enough" for me, let's overlook.) It also has a page reference, which is where the Google Book link takes us, which with my limited German suggests that our interest in this work is in a single passage, of less than a page. In regard of your previous comment I would agree that (generally) a page number is "easy enough", and for a specific reference at that. And that is what we have here: what I call a specific reference, which is not to a work as a whole, but only to a passage in the work. Where this reference is "general" is in applying to all of the points in this article (a condition perhaps better described as "universal").

  I suspect where you balk is at the prospect of citing every assertion in this article with an identical "Larsson et al., 1998, p. 54". (Which a certain bot would then bundle up as a single named-ref.) And I would agree that that would be tiresome. But I consider this a pathological case, resulting from relying entirely on a single source. However representative (unfortunately) this might be of many Misplaced Pages articles, it is a special case in respect of citation practice generally. I suspect that failing to recognize this difference accounts for some our differences of sentiments in this subject.

  With that in mind, perhaps you would explain what you mean about "format"? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:10, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

By "format", Kmhkmh means whether the text is connected to the source by using <ref> tags, parenthetical citations, or one of the other less popular forms of WP:Inline citation, or whether it is typed after anasterisk at the bottom of the page.

That's what the ==General references== section is about: do you connect your source to your text, or not? Here's an example that should illustrate the issue:

General reference	Inline citation
The Moon is really big, but the Sun is even bigger.	The Moon is really big, but the Sun is even bigger.
References Expert, Alice. (June 2001) "On the Relative Sizes of the Sun and Moon". Fancy Magazine, p. 78.	References Expert, Alice. (June 2001) "On the Relative Sizes of the Sun and Moon". Fancy Magazine, p. 78.

See the difference? That difference is the only difference that we're discussing in this section. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

  Yes, thanks, that clarifies at least where the confusion is. And I think we agree that "Inline citation" includes having the full citation in the text (with or without parentheses), or a short citation ("Harvard style" or not, with or without use of Harv templates).

  I say that the first example is really specific (in both senses I have described above) because it points to a specific part of a source that (presumably) supports a specific assertion in the article text. That in this case the source is not linked to the specific text is, I think, a failing. It still applies to only the specific assertion, not to the article as a whole. This reference therefore is not "general".

  As to whether "do you connect your source to your text": of course yes. That is a requirement of WP:V: to attribute "using an inline citation." ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:02, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The left example given by WhatamIdoing illustrates a general reference. Alice Expert's article generally supports the Misplaced Pages article, but we don't know which part of the Misplaced Pages article is supported by Expert. That is how the term "general reference" has been sued in this guideline for a long time. Due to this history, the definition is too ingrained to change. If J. Johnson doesn't like it, he/she will have to propose a total rewrite that doesn't use the term "general reference" at all.

I very much disagree that it is a requirement to always use an inline citation. When an article contains claims that can easily be looked up in any of 20 textbooks on a well-settled subject, there is no need to provide inline citations. And certainly one could list some of those textbooks as general references. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:30, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:V only requires inline citations for quotes and material this is challenged (or is likely to be). Is there something odd about including references not cited? Gimmetoo (talk) 22:35, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

"Is there something odd about including references not cited?" I don't think so. Sources that helped an editor get a general sense of the subject before writing the article, or that were used to confirm claims that could easily be located in the index of nearly any textbook on the subject, should be included as general references. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:52, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

That was a rhetorical question. I didn't expect an answer :) Gimmetoo (talk) 23:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

  But a good question nonetheless. One assertion in this multi-faceted discussion is the possibility of references that are truly general to the article as a whole. But I can see the oddness of a reference that lacks any mention of why it is included. The standard practice for such cases is to include (usually after the first sentence) a note which explains the matter. (E.g.: "For a basic background see ....") So even a truly general reference can be (and probably should be) cited. That the citation (footnote) applies not to specific text, but generally, may seem a little odd, but a general and accepted practice.

  In the example above (presuming that this line is not the entirety of the article, and that p. 78 in Expert 2001 supports this specific assertion), if a citation is not required for this assertion (perhaps per WP:SKYISBLUE), then there would be no need for the reference, and this entire discussion is moot. But in this case, where the reference is to a specific part of the source, and supports specific text: the reference is not "general", but specific. That the connection to the source is missing is beside the point: the reference is still specific. A missing connection does not make the reference general in its application, only ambiguous. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't actually care what you think this "should" be called. I'm telling you that this is called a "general reference" on the English Misplaced Pages. The section in question is about this thing, which happens to be called a "general reference" here.

(Gimmetoo, because of BLP's requirements, there are actually four types of material that require inline citations. They're listed at WP:MINREF. Nothing else is absolutely required to have any sort of citation, although it is both normal and good to exceed the rock-bottom minimum requirements.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

To extend WhatamIdoing's example

The thing in "References–1" and "References–3" is a general reference. The thing in "References–2" and "Notes–3" is an "inline citation" (the first an "inline citation" and the second one a "short citation"). The wording of Misplaced Pages:Citing sources#Types of citation that defines the usage of "general reference" makes this clear:

A general reference is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not displayed as an inline citation. General references are usually listed at the end of the article in a References section. They may be found in underdeveloped articles, especially when all article content is supported by a single source. They may also be listed by author alphabetically in a References section in more developed articles as a supplement to inline citations.

It does not include the example in "References–2" because it is "displayed as an inline citation". In "References–1" it is "in underdeveloped article" and in "References–3" it is "as a supplement to inline citation", so in both "References–1" and "References–3", because of its positioning in a References section, it is a general reference. -- PBS (talk) 12:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

  I disagree with PBS's nomenclature for the "Short inline citation" column. The short citation and the full citation together form the inline citation for the claim "The Moon is really big, but the Sun is even bigger." Only the "General reference" column contains a general reference. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I also disagree. That's not a general reference. It's simply an alternate method of displaying inline citations. Try reading WP:Inline citation. It lists six or seven different methods of providing inline citations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:58, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

  Sort of agree, sort of not; which goes to show how complex this stuff is. "Inline citation" is another ill-defined term, but I would say that both of the links above ( and ) are "inline" (as in "in the line of text"). (As would a short or full citation, in the line of text, with or without parentheses.) I could add additional examples, but they all would feature something in the text — a full (clunky!!) or short citation, or a link to somewhere else. A link typically (but not necessarily) goes to a note (created with <ref> tags), where there is either a full citation ("References-2"), or short cite ("Notes-3") which links to full cite ("References-3"). But what interests us here is only where there is nothing "inline" in the text. Which could be all of these examples if the bracketed links are taken out.

  Where I quibble with the definition of general reference is regarding the scope of the content it supports. The general and standard meaning of "general" is "applicable to the whole", "not confined by specializaton", "not specific or definite", "generic", etc. Our definition ignores that, and so the unfortunate custom has developed of calling "general" such references as are really specific, but lack an inline linkage to a citation. (Consider: remove the bracketed links, and all of the examples of above are "general" in the sense being (mis)used here.) Such a faulty definition does us no good, and puts WP in conflict with the ordinary meaning of "general".

  Slightly different issue: as I said way back, "general" references may tend to occur in a section named "References", but that is incidental; a reference is not general because of its "positioning". But I would reinforce (and expand) a point Jc3s5H makes: the "inline citation" should probably refer to whole apparatus of a link (if used), short cite (if used), and full citation. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:45, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I would agree with J. Johnson that a general reference should support a substantial part of the article. A reference that supports only one specific claim, but which is not linked to that claim by an inline citation, is really a citation error rather than a general reference. The problem is that since we don't know which claim is supported, it's hard to tell the difference between a general reference and a citation error unless the person checking the article is quite familiar with the source. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:32, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Incomplete or broken may be better terms, as "error" suggests a positive misstatement, rather than lack. At any rate, recall what I said before that a (truly) general reference can be specifically cited "inline" (as long as a note explains that it is general), and probably should be. In this view even general references could be incomplete (i.e., uncited). The implication would be that all references should be cited in the text or a note, general references as well as specific. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:54, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Certainly a statement that is not a direct quote and not likely to be challenged could be followed by an inline citation to a particular page in a work that also supports many other statements in the article. But it is not required. "The implication would be that all references should be cited in the text or a note, general references as well as specific" has never been a Misplaced Pages requirement. If you require that every source mentioned in an article must be associated with some specific claim, even though that claim is not a quote and is not likely to be challenged, which claim would you pick to place an inline citation after? Would you require that every single claim that can be supported by the source be cited? That would be totally unworkable. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

  Your previous comment was about distinguishing between incomplete citations ("citation error", a reference not linked to specific material) and references truly general. My point above was that truly general references can be cited (mentioned in a note). If general references are cited, then there is no problem: incomplete citations are just what they are — incomplete. And this should not be a problem, because truly general references are rather rare.

  I believe the gist of your current comment is whether "every single claim that can be supported by the source be cited". This is a bit ambiguous. I often have claims that can be supported by more than one source. Often I will cite multiple sources, sometimes not; I certainly do not cite a source every time it could be cited. I believe you mean whether every claim should be supported by a source. (Right?) I am inclined to say yes, because that is what I do (well, mostly!), and I find it quite workable. However, the context here is where a source has been referenced, but not linked (cited) inline. (The common use of "general reference".) In such cases I would say that the hard work (of finding the source, and inserting a formatted full reference) is already done, and it is almost trivial to add a specific short cite inline. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

First off, it has often been proposed that every claim must be followed by an inline citation, and this proposal has been repeatedly rejected. (See Misplaced Pages:Perennial proposals#Require inline citations for everything.) I think your comments about workability assume a particular scenario for writing or improving an article, but there are many scenarios where it is not workable. For example, I read a textbook to make sure I really understand a topic, and to get some ideas about how much detail to include, and what order to present ideas in. I then reorganize an article to remove extraneous details and present the remaining ideas in a better order. I find that all the quotes and all the claims that are likely to be challenged already have citations. Indeed, I find that all the claims where it would be helpful to the reader to provide a citation already have citations. So am I going to find some highly obvious claim, for example, in an advanced article on the solar system, that the Earth orbits the Sun, just so that when I add the textbook to the reference list, it will be the target of at least one inline citation? No. Why should I bother to find a claim that doesn't need a citation, then look up in the book where that claim is covered, just so I won't have a general reference? Jc3s5h (talk) 21:17, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

You misunderstand. To cite a reference used generally it is not necessary to find a specific claim to tie it to. Recall what I said before (12 Jan.): simply add a note (something like "For a basic background see...") and cite the source. Such notes are usually inserted at the end of the first sentence; the note explains that it applies to the whole article. I think you will agree that is hardly any bother at all. And such a note also explains why the source is referenced. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree it would be helpful to provide an indication of why a general reference was added to an article. If the Reference section is separate from the Notes section, there would be no need for a note and the comment would probably be at the end of the citation so as not to obscure the alphabetical order.

Sure, that is one way of doing it (annotating the reference). I would say that I prefer the annotation in the note, but I have a vague recollection of doing it somewhere just as you say. And of course (I hope this doesn't now confuse anyone), citing or annotating a reference as being used generally (generically) does not preclude it from being cited specifically elsewhere. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:16, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Recommended reading

To get back to a point Phil touched (30 Dec.) regarding "general references" as the title of sections that might also be called "recommended reading" or "for further study": such use of "general references" is confusing in itself. I suggest that such use should be avoided, and even deprecated, in favor of the more descriptive terms. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Added bolding to emphasize I am referring to use of "General references" as a section title, not as characterization of the contents of such sections. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:13, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree; references were used in writing the article; works listed in "For further study" or "Recommended reading" need not have been consulted while writing the article. Some editors might feel that listing a work in the "References" section implies it is recommended and so would not list it again under "Recommended reading"; other editors might see value in listing suitable works in both lists, when applicable. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:53, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Jc3s5h: ==Further reading== is not (normally) supposed to include sources you used in writing the article. It turns out that WP:FURTHER (MOS guideline) and Misplaced Pages:Further reading (an old proposal) also agree with him. This has been settled practice for years. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:58, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Whoa, guys, you're going off on a tangent. Whether a work listed as a reference (source) can be included (or not) in some other list (e.g., "Further reading"), is not the point here. I am suggesting only that any such list should not be titled "General references". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:25, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

There is an old Irish country saying when a person asks for directs and the description is complicated "If I was going there I would not start out from here". The issue of what to call the sections is described in WP:LAYOUT and the editors who lurk there are in favour of recommendation that follow practice and not prescribing a better solution. For better or worse the sections are know as "Notes", "References" and "Further reading" in that order and that is because that was once recommended and has now become the most common layout. The place to discuss changing the name of "Further reading" is at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Layout. --PBS (talk) 12:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Jc3s5h: ==Further reading== is not (normally) supposed to include sources you used in writing the article. I think that there is a problem here with short term thinking. The problem statement presupposed "you" are still around to know that "you" used an uncited source as a general reference when "you" wrote or expanded the article. I think that in a developed article, books that were read by someone who added text to an article but did not directly cite that book should be placed in "Further reading".

The Nuttall Encyclopædia has many one line definitions and is ideal for putting in a one line stub see for example the entries under A:

• Wood, James, ed. (1907). "A" . The Nuttall Encyclopædia. London and New York: Frederick Warne.

Let us suppose that Nuttall was cited in the References section called "Sources" back in 2003, and let us suppose that that now a decade later it is now 35K article, with three dozen citation, some of which are short inline, some long inline and some general references. The current editors decide to bring it up to the standard of a good article (and that the initial editor is long since retired). Back in 2003 there was not a Wikisource article containing the Nuttall text, but there is now. If not one word of the initial Nuttal text exists in the current article why should Nuttall be listed in the references section and not placed in the external links section using {{Nuttall poster}} as is the usual way to display uncited Wikisource articles? It would look really odd (and not up to good article standards) to keep Nuttall in the References section while all the other encyclopaedia articles on Wikisource (about the article) are in poster format in the external links section.

There is some commercial and/or academic pressure to have works cited in Misplaced Pages so that it can be mentioned elsewhere (Some years ago I wrote an article called (Genocide definitions) and have been chuffed to see some academics consider it worth while adding their definition to the list). Keeping the list of references to those which are cited in an article helps editors with identifying such nefarious additions (that aid the sale of books rather than helping the reader understand the subject). -- PBS (talk) 13:43, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Slow down guys! This is a tangent. Phil, I sympathize (and btw, thanks for splitting off this subsection), but the sole point I wanted to clarify in this section is that use of "General references" as a section title — e.g., as "== General references ==" — should be avoided, even deprecated, for the reasons previously discussed. I suggest that such sections should be titled "References", "Recommended reading", "For further study", or similar, as appropriate for the contents and use. I make no claim as to what is or should be included in such sections. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:13, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

AFAIK "General references" is not recommended in any guideline a section header, what the guidance suggests is either "References" or "Sources" or a couple of others. What is being described as general references here are the things in the section, because in some articles there are no bullet points in the References section instead there is a list of inline citations generated by {{reflist}} -- PBS (talk) 02:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I've never seen ==General references== recommended as a section heading, neither in this guideline, nor at LAYOUT, nor anywhere else. It is sometimes used, but it has never been officially recommended.

What exactly you're supposed to use if you have short citations, full citations for your short ones, explanatory footnotes, and general references all in the same article is a mystery. Nobody has ever come up with a good answer to that question. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Reprise

This discussion has explored deeply into several views of "general references". At this point I would like to summarize several points which I suggest would clarify matters:

1. By standard usage "general" means "applicable to the whole" of something, "not specific", "not particular".
2. A citation (full or short) is "general" in regard of the source when the source itself is referenced as a whole, not any specific passage. Example: "The theory of natural selection is described by Darwin in The Origin of Species."
3. A citation is "general" in regard of the article when the source, or some passage in the source, is applied to the whole article (or possibly a whole section). E.g., the article (or the editor writing the article) may depend on some source for general background on the subject, or the article implicitly follows some particular definition or interpretaton. Note that in such cases it is best to explain that, even if no specific quotations or claims are involved. This is usually done in a note at the start of the article which then cites the source "generally". A citation can be applied "generally" to a specific section, topic, or incident; for examples see Tuchman's The Guns of August.
4. A full reference does not support material in the text unless it (or a corresponding short cite) is cited inline (in the text, or in a note embedded in the text). Short articles that rely principally on a single source should explicitly cite the source in a note that explains it is being used "generally".
5. "General references" as a title for a section or list of works should be avoided due to conflicts with other concepts of the term.

Yes, I grant these go further than the current definition of "general reference" (and frequent usage). But wouldn't these clarifications would greatly reduce the current widespread confusion regarding this term? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:54, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: There is a definition of general reference at the start of the guideline and as you say it is frequently used that way. "General reference" does not mean applied to the whole but is " general reference" or as it is described in the guideline "A general reference is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not displayed as an inline citation." There is nothing in that definition that supports your statement, you are also bending the meaning of cation to fit you argument because WP:CITEHOW states that inline citations should include page numbers or chapter for books (unless in unusual cases it is to the book and not to the page). I think you are looking at "general" from the wrong perspective. You are looking at it from the content of the citation, indicated by the formation of the citation, instead of its placement of the citation in the the article. For example I might have this citation the is very specific in pointing to the location in the source (actual citation taken from the Bosnian Genocide article -- for those who need reminding § means "section"):

• ECHR Jorgić v. Germany Judgment, 12 July 2007. § 43 citing the judgment of 19 April 2004 rendered by the Appeals Chamber of the ICTY, IT-98-33-A §§ 25,33

If one uses the definitions given in the section "Types of citation" in the guideline, then whether it is a general reference depends on its location in the Misplaced Pages article. If it appears inline then it is not a general reference. If it appears in a reference section then it is a general reference (and yes it can be both simultaneously). Whether or not it is a general reference does not depend on how precisely it guides the reader to the information in the source. -- PBS (talk) 11:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

As to your comment Short articles that rely principally on a single source should explicitly cite the source in a note that explains it is being used "generally". No! General references on their own are depreciated. If you look at new articles that use general references, stubs or not, many editors will place an {{unreferenced}} tag on the top (I have recently been admonish a user who has been doing this at the rate on average of 2 a minute because they were not attempting to look for citations themselves). If you look at the short history of the article Ernest Roume you will see a recent example of the creation of a one line stub, such tagging, and the removal of the tag with an inline citation.

WhatamIdoing has been fighting a rear guard action on this issue, but in recent years AFAIK each time this has been argued WaId has been in a minority as most editors do not consider that general references (used as defined in this guideline) on their own meet the requirements of the WP:V policy and this guideline (see this example (February 2011) in the archives of this page). -- PBS (talk) 11:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

  I am generallly with "most editors" that "general references" (as used here) are generally deficient in regard of WP:V. And I am particularly averse to some editors' claims "general reference" for what I would call in incomplete reference. Yet I am not with sympathy for some of Whatamidoing's claims. I think much of the problem is because of poor definition and interpretation.

  Please note that the point you object to is actually a way of resolving some of these differences. E.g., given that some reference is used "generally" in some way that a flock of inline cites would be tedious to the reader (note that I distinguish this from cases where an editor is simply omitting inline cites), then a single inline citation that explains the reference is being used generally makes that clear. This accommodates cases where a source is used "generally" as I define it , and does so in a way that I think would satisfy WP:V and WP:FACR because there is an inline citation. Strictly speaking the inline citation makes the reference not general (as defined here), and so lets the air out of that issue. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:51, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, PBS is a bit unclear. It has always been my position that WP:V requires inline citations for three specific classes of material, and that BLP requires inline citations for a fourth. Those four are listed at WP:MINREF, which I wrote a couple of years ago, and whose section heading is ==When you must use inline citations==, so it should be perfectly clear to everyone that I believe that inline citations must be used in many instances. Where those four classes of material are concerned, general references are never acceptable.

But for material not in those four classes, WP:V does not require a citation of any kind. If no citation is required (e.g., WP:BLUE), then you may (and people do) list the sources that you consulted to acquire that information as general references.

Offhand, I can't remember using a general reference myself, ever. I don't really like them, and I believe that unless the article is very short and the source is freely available online, they contribute to sometimes insuperable maintenance challenges. I only recognize that the consensus of the community is that they may be used in some limited situations, that the reality is that they are used by many brand-new editors, and that we need to define the wikijargon here and tell people how to format them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Can you give an example of the point you make: "If no citation is required (e.g., WP:BLUE), then you may (and people do) list the sources that you consulted to acquire that information as general references"? I don't think people do that. They used to, when WP first started. But I haven't seen it for years, except with stubs, where there are (e.g.) two sentences and one ref, and it's understood that the ref supplied the material.

But where you have a long article, which includes "the sky is blue" (for which no inline ref is required), no one would include a full citation to a source for "the sky is blue" in the References section. No ref required means no ref required. The References section is strictly a list of the references cited within the article, often in shortened form, which means full citations are required in the References section, as this page says. SlimVirgin 18:11, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I'll be able to lay my hands on an example without a long search. You might go look at older versions of Elephant, though, which was an FA that I remember seeing with general references listed and with some material not supported with inlines.

I agree that "no ref required" means "no ref required". I do not agree that "no ref required" means "you are not permitted to add a citation anyway". The refs section is not a list of refs "cited within the article" (emphasis added). If that were the case, then general references could not be listed, because—by definition—they are not cited anywhere in the article. The refs section is a list of sources used to write the article. If you use a source, but it is not "cited within the article", then you are permitted but not required to list it with the references. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I concur: "not required" does not mean forbidden.

Examples! See International Code of Signals. The last Reference (Mead, 1934) is used "generally" (in both senses as I use it), but is also not cited in the text, thus qualifying under the current definition. Also look at the first note. "ICS 1969" is cited specifically for the quotation, but is also explicitly cited generally (as I mean it) for other material which is not specifically cited "inline". For some non-Misplaced Pages examples see Tuchman, The Guns of August. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:28, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Conclusion?

The above is too much to read. Is it okay if I go ahead and restore the edit that PBS reverted? I can't see the benefit of including the extra words.

SlimVirgin 23:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I would add another paragraph to the proposal:

When a general reference is placed in a good article it is often helpful to add a note explaining how the source was used, for example, as a model for the structure of the article.

Jc3s5h (talk) 00:13, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't think I understand what that's saying. Can you rephrase, and by good article do you mean a GA or something else? SlimVirgin 00:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't necessarily mean an article that has gone through Misplaced Pages's good article process, I just mean a good article. A reference can be used in writing an article for purposes other than supporting specific statements. Such uses might be

• deciding on the general structure of the article
• deciding which topics were important enough to include
• deciding what notation to use in a math or physics article, even for equations based on other sources.

We should not word the guideline to suggest that articles that use sources in such ways are underdeveloped, or imply that such use should not be acknowledged. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:17, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi, general references sections are used in under-developed articles. I haven't seen one for years that uses a general references section unless it's very short, or one of those articles that just copies a public-domain text. Do you have an example of another kind of use? SlimVirgin 17:56, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I see no evidence you have read my posting; you just keep repeating yourself. Also, I disagree with your claim in the "Reprise" thread that " The References section is strictly a list of the references cited within the article...." According to an acceptable Misplaced Pages style, the Chicago Manual of Style page 687,

1. Full bibliography. A full bibliography includes all the works cited, whether in text or in notes, other than personal communications. Some particularly relevant works the author has consulted may also be listed, even if not mentioned in the text....

Jc3s5h (talk) 18:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As for the requested example, Gregorian calendar lists a 1999 work by Duncan in the "References" section but Duncan is not mentioned in any footnote. "Gregorian calendar" is a pretty good article; I would nominate it as a good article if religious controversy didn't doom its chances. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:49, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Jc: editions of CMS vary. Could you give us a section number? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:31, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Section 14.59 of the 16th edition (2010).

SV, Yes I think it is a good idea to modify the "General references" section. But I think that what you are currently is producing a sawn-off version of the definition given in the section "Types of citation". For example a list of general references is common in articles other than undeveloped articles so "... are usually found in under-developed or very short articles" is not true, because many (most?) large articles (and all those that use short citations) have general references in a References section (see for example Battle of Stalingrad).

Hence I think the wording in the "Types of citation" section is appropriate: "They may be found in underdeveloped articles, especially when all article content is supported by a single source. They may also be listed by author alphabetically in a References section in more developed articles as a supplement to inline citations."

But if all we are going to do in the guideline section "General references" is regurgitate the paragraph in the "Types of citation" section we may as well just remove the section "General references" from the guideline lock stock and barrel. -- PBS (talk) 02:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The combination of short citations and full citations is not general references. If there is any way for the reader to figure out which sentence or paragraph that source supports, then it is not a general reference. See the definition: A general reference is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not linked to any particular piece of material in the article.

SV, your bit about "not displayed inline" is not going to work, because it's going to perpetuate the claim that Irish phonology (FA using parenthetical citations} uses three or four dozen general references. General references are "not connected" or "not linked" to content. The mechanics of how they are displayed is irrelevant to their nature. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:32, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The current version already says that. I'm proposing only a copy edit so it's not so wordy; if people want to change the content after that, that's fine. An inline citation includes parenthetical refs, so I don't think I follow your point. I've looked at Irish phonology and it doesn't use a general references section; it uses inline citations, and it lists the full citations in a References section, which is normal practice. That's an entirely separate thing from a general references section, which is just a list of texts used to create the article, without saying which text was used for which point. This page used to make that distinction clearer, but the text was extended and the difference muddied. SlimVirgin 18:03, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

No, the current version doesn't say that. The current version says "but is not linked to any particular piece of material in the article through an inline citation." Your proposal says "but is not displayed as an inline citation."

I grant that your version uses fewer words, but we need clarity, not brevity—and especially not the kind of brevity that gets people so confused that they put errors like "Examples of general reference sections are given above, in the sections on short citations and parenthetical references" into this guideline. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Could you link to a version of the guideline that used to make the distinction clearer?

"The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from". A general reference is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not displayed as an inline citation. (from the section at the start of the guideline that contains the definition of a lot of phrases used in the guideline). The mechanics where they are displayed is relevant to their the definition used to describe what a general reference is. Taking the Battle of Stalingrad example there is a line in the Bibliography section (Biography being an alternative name for References) -- "Beevor, Antony (1998). Stalingrad. Viking, London"? I would describe it as a general reference, what would you describe it as?-- PBS (talk) 09:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

The entry in the "Bibliograpy" section of the "Battle of Stalingrad" article is the full citation that supports footnotes 12 and 23. I also note that footnote 66 is defective because it fails to specify a year, and so could refer to either of the works by Beevor. The bibliography entry is part of several inline citations. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Why do the general references need to sorted in an alphabetical order?--Kmhkmh (talk) 04:44, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

They don't. You might choose to sort them by date, for example. They usually are sorted alphabetically by authors' last names, though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:33, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

That's right, they don't, that's just an incidental correlation that has nothing to do with the nature or definition of "general reference". Likewise for their location ("at the end") within a section, or the name of the section. Including such incidental observations only confuses matters as editors get the impression they are actual requirements, and it skews our concept of term. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

That was basically my point, i. e. the reason for my question. Readers it may understand as a (new) requirement that has been sneaked in there.--Kmhkmh (talk) 21:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

It has been there for month probably years. Have you any examples of where (i) they are not sorted into an ordered list, (ii) not sorted by author (where available) -- PBS (talk) 08:17, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

How about anywhere that reference list is created by a {{reflist}} or WP:LDR? (For an ugly example see Climate_change_denial#References.) But that is really beside the point, which is: whether a reference is "general" is not dependent on whether the list or section it is in ordered (sorted) or not. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually no. The old/current formulation was "usually sorted" and the suggest new is "sorted". The former clearly just indicates the most common occurrence/practice but the latter is easily "misread" as requirement. I know that is is not the point we are trying to clarify here, but that's all the more reason not to introduce such (fishy) changes on the side.--Kmhkmh (talk) 23:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

OK now I understand! Would the addition of "usually" in front of the phrase "sorted by the last name of the author or editor" assuage you concern? -- PBS (talk) 11:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes it would. The formulation with "usually" avoids unfortunate misunderstandings and with it hardly anybody would consider the alphabetic sorting a requirement.--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:34, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Lets turn this on it head. The first definition of a general reference "is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not displayed as an inline citation." That definition includes all of what Jc3s5h describes as "the full citation that supports footnotes ...". There are two problems with using Jc3s5h's description:

• It is inviting pedants to insist that the citation is not a "full citation" because it does not meet the requirements of "What information to include" (no page numbers), and so they will add {{page number}} to them to insist that they are added.
• (the more important one) It is also confusing because the last big edit to this page was to try to get away from the idea that the stuff in the References section were citations. This is because calling the lines in the References section citation encourages inexperienced editors then think that "general references (as currently defined)" with or without "short citations" are "full citations" and all that is required (as is often the case in secondary school education).

So if "the full citation that supports footnotes ..." are not "general references", and they are not "full citations", what name can be used to describe them? -- PBS (talk) 08:17, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

  First of all, citations and references, "full" or otherwise, do not support footnotes; footnotes (endnotes) are just a place to put stuff. Second, in regard of references ("citations") "full" means with regard to the bibliographical details (consult your favorite manual of style).

  I think what Phil means is: if (as currently defined here) "general" means not specifically cited in the text ("inline"), by what name do we distinguish the full references that are cited?

  I suggested before (16 Jan.) that where text that should be linked to ("supported" by) a reference, but is not, "incomplete" or "broken" might apply. But that is really about the lack of a linkage (inline cite). In regard of a reference I say that such distinction is pointless: the reference (full or otherwise) does not change. A "full" reference (citation) is always a full citation, specifically cite inline, or not. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Let's not, because what you call "the first definition" is simply wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:46, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

WaId. I accept that some (including you) think the first definition is wrong, but if it is wrong (and I do not think it is), what would you call an item in the list of works that appear as bullet points in a reference section of an article using short citations (because at the moment the first definition defines them as general references)? If that is to be changed then we need a short unambiguous name that can be used as a label on other talk pages to describe them, in the way that "general references" are currently used. -- PBS (talk) 11:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

  Waid, you're confused. "The first definition" is Phil's term, which he used just above, and is essentially the current definition. And perhaps I am confused to, as I thought you supported that (e.g., your example of 9 Jan., above). Could you clarify?

  Phil: Why do we need different names for references that are cited and references that are not cited? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Given the initial definition I don't think we do. For example 1,000 of articles have {{EB1911}} templates in their "References section"s with no inline citations (which they ought to have). I think it confusing to change the description of a bullet point to {{EB1911}} just because an editor added inline citations to an article, it is simpler to refer {{Cite EB1911}} it as a "general reference" whether or not it is enhanced with inline citations that appear in the body of the text and in a "Notes section", but without any visible change to the bullet point or to the rest of the References section.

However my reading of the above opinions such as the explanation given by Jc3s5h 17:15, 27 January 2013 and WaId's repeated statements indicates that they do not agree that works listed in a "references section" that "supplement" inline citations are general references but are something else because they form part of the inline citation. I am not convinced that making a distinction between bullet points that directly supplement inline citations and bullet points that do not, will not generate more confusion than it solves. But I may be wrong! and I am inviting those who think it desirable to make that distinction to come up with a simple short descriptor for "something else" that will not cause more confusion than exists currently.

-- PBS (talk) 15:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

  That's my point, that it is confusing (and pointless) to change the description of a full reference (I presume that is what you mean by "bullet point": the bulleted entry in a reference list) just because inline citations have been added. Regardless what the others think, perhaps you and I are in agreement on this point?

  As to whether such a distinction would generate more confusion than it solves: well, isn't that what we have currently? That is, the current definition does distinguish whether a reference is cited inline (or not), and it does generate more confusion (all of the above!) than it "solves". Right? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

• We call this "third thing" a full citation. A full citation is one of the two parts of an inline citation system that uses shortened citations.
• We do not use this definition now. WP:CITE#General references says "A general reference is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not linked to any particular piece of material in the article through an inline citation." The definition you were working from is SlimVirgin's proposed change, not the current one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:17, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean by 'this "third thing"'?

The current definition (as you quoted it) does invoke (as I said) this distinction of "is not linked ... through an inline citation." Which is where the question arises of what to call a citation that IS so linked. (My point being that we do not need special terms for that distinction.) ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:36, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

By "third thing", I mean the full citations to sources that are cited inline with shortened citations of any type. We don't need a special name for it, because it already has a name. If you use {{sfn}} or parens, you have an inline citation ( like "(Smith 2001:25)") in the text and a full citation (like "Smith, Alice (2001) My Book. Oxbridge Press.") at the end. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:23, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I propose that whenever we have need of referring to full references that have not been cited in the text/notes ("inline") it is sufficient to say "uncited references". And the complement of that is adequately expressed as "cited references". (Note: this makes no inference about whether a reference should have an inline cite pointing to it.) Is this sufficient? Alternately, does anyone here feel there is any need to have a special term for either of these distinctions? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:29, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I oppose this. I oppose inventing a new term at all, because we already have term for this particular thing, and we shouldn't try to impose new jargon on the community. I oppose this particular suggestion, because it is an oxymoron ("Citing" does not mean "inline citing". You'd be citing a source, and then labeling it as uncited. The actual uncited sources as the ones that you secretly took material from and did not list anywhere at all) and is going to make the average editor believe that there is something seriously wrong ("uncited" is always bad). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:17, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

W: It seems to me that you have totally missed what I am trying to do. I am not inventing a new term, I am trying to clarify and even simplify existing jargon. I am not proposing that "cited references" and "uncited references" should be adopted as specifically defined jargon. What I am saying is that where we have a reference for a source — and by this I mean the full reference (or full citation as it is sometimes called) that describes the source — and we want to distinguish whether that reference is linked or not linked "to any particular piece of material in the article through an inline citation", then it is sufficient to simply describe it: "that reference is linked to the text". Alternately: "that reference is cited in the text" (or not). Instead of using a seemingly ordinary term ("general reference") in a peculiar and confusing way that is specific to Misplaced Pages.

It appears that you took "citing" to mean the linkage from the full reference to the source. Please note that I did qualify my use of "cite" with "in the text/notes (inline)". Nor is there anything about this proposed usage that suggests that '"uncited" is always bad". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:42, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps that is resolved? So I will ask again: do we really need a special term for full references which lack inline cites linking to them? Or, when we need to refer to such cases, is it adequate to describe such cases (such as "full references not cited in the text or notes")? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:46, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

I go away for a week and come back to check something... and find that the bickering continues. It's very simple: these are general references, and these are not. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:29, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Not "bickering", but patient, thorough exploration of deeply held but somewhat discordant views which folks are often rather sensitive about. Despite the occasional testiness I think the apparent issues are not so deep but that clarifying some misunderstandings and allowing for some differences in point of view can lead to a general consensus.

However, it is necessary for folks to relax any death-grips on certain points. I respectfully suggest this includes the view "it's very simple". Actually, at a very basic level I would agree with that: the current definition of "general reference" is indeed very simple: a reference "... not linked ... through an inline citation." But that is also not simple in that it is a special definition peculiar to Misplaced Pages, not in accord with general usage, and not useful in that it leads to these other issues of inclusion in "References" versus "General references", what to call a reference that is linked via a citation, etc.

Citation on Misplaced Pages is more confusing than it needs to be. My hope is that if we can straighten out some of these kinks there will be less bickering overall. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:10, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

It is never simple to change the community's terminology. Even if we did (and I point out that it has taken three years just to convince most editors that secondary is not a synonym for independent, even though every reliable source supports this claim), your initial proposal ("I propose that whenever we have need of referring to full references that have not been cited in the text/notes ("inline") it is sufficient to say "uncited references") doesn't work.

"Unlinked" might work. "Non-inline-cited" might work. "Orphaned" or "unconnected" might work.

But "uncited" doesn't. "Uncited" means "there is no citation at all". It does not mean "there is no inline citation to connect this source back to the text".

To expand on Redrose's examples, these are general references, and these are not, and this has uncited sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:36, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Please be more attentive. I have already explained that I am not urging adoption of a specific term, and that my use of "uncited references" was only an example. (Which I did qualify as referring only to use of an inline citation.) I also provided an alternate example using "unlinked", which is exactly what you have just suggested, along with some other alternatives, all of which I find adequate. My point is that, referring to "orphaned" (or unlinked or unconnected) references, ordinary language is sufficient; we do not need a specific term ("general reference"), defined with a specific meaning peculiar to Misplaced Pages. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I believe I have established that we do not need to give the term "general reference" a special meaning peculiar to Misplaced Pages, and resolved various confusions. Does anyone else have any questions or concerns about this? If not, I would like to proceed with a redefinition of "general reference" that removes the special meaning, and thereby remove the basis of a lot of confusion. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:28, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The community has a practical need for some way to refer to bibliographic citations that are unconnected to any particular material on the page. We have used the term general reference to identify these things for years. How exactly is the community supposed to (1) be able to discuss these things and (2) not use any terms for these things?

The worst possible solution is introducing a new term, which will inevitably have all the same problems as the old one (i.e., some editor will not understand, because his schoolteacher preferred a different term), plus the problem of no one actually using the new term except you, because everyone's used to the old one and nobody in the future will be able to make sense of the discussions on about four thousand talk pages.

The second worst possible solution is demanding that people replace a convenient term with a lengthy, cumbersome descriptive phrase. In practice, such a demand will simply fail. WP:Nobody reads the directions, and they certainly will ignore any direction that tells them to quit saying "general references" and instead type out something like "This is just a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not linked to any particular piece of material in the article through an inline citation" instead of "This is just a WP:General reference". WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:21, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

  Let's take this from the top. The current definition of "general references" is a problem because 1) it conflicts with the ordinary and standard meaning of "general" (confusing everyone who has had an English teacher, or merely uses a dictionary), and because 2) it is based on a pointless distinction that implies (among others) that a "general reference" does become something else when it is cited.

  You complain that I would replace a "convenient term" with "a lengthy, cumbersome descriptive phrase". But the convenience of your example is only in hiding the cumbersome part behind a wikilink. The lengthy descriptions have come in because (lacking a pre-packaged definition hidden behind a wikilink) we have to resolve differing conceptions of the very terms we are talking about (like the meaning of "citing").

  You complain about "introducing a new term", but that is a misstatement of what I am trying to do. (Is it really necessary to remind an experienced veteran such as your self of WP:TPG?) I am suggesting that ordinary terms — even such as you have suggested — can suffice. If we need to clarify what a term means (and I prefer we stick with ordinary and standard usages) or specify what terms should be used, fine, let's do that. But introducing a new term with a meaning peculiar to WP ("jargon") is the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve.

  I don't know why you are so implacably opposed to my suggestion, other than it appears to touch on some matter of deep concern to you. I would reassure you even on that, but your caricaturizations are so absurd I hardly know where to start. I believe I have addressed your concerns reasonably (and patiently), and if that is not sufficient then it is time to move on.

~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:50, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Hypothetical example

Please give me an example of how you want to change the community's language. Pretend I'm in a discussion with another editor. He wants to take a section currently labeled ==Bibliography== (a section heading I dislike) and rename it ==Further reading==. I want to tell him, "we shouldn't do that; those are WP:General references, not WP:Further reading items."

You don't want me to use the term general references any more. So how exactly would you re-write that sentence? What words would you put in my mouth so we can get rid of a long-standing phrase that you hate? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:06, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Although not directed to me, I would change the sentence to say "we shouldn't do that; those are not WP:Further reading items because they were used while writing the article." As for what alternative titles could be used for the section, it would depend on how the works were used while writing the article. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:30, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

  First of all, it's not the term I "hate", but its bad definition and misuse. In your hypothetical situation my response would be as thus: As the references in the ==Bibliography== section "support content" the section should be retitled ==References== (or ==Sources== or some such); ==Further reading== is for sources that go beyond the material covered in the article, as described in WP:Further reading.

  That is short enough, and I think clear enough. If there are any objections I expect it will be because I have not saluted the distinction of "not linked to any particular piece of material". But why is that needed? The references we are referring to are the full references (or full citations) with the complete bibliographic description of the source. Neither the source nor the reference describing it are changed in any way when invoked by an inline citation.

~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:46, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I do not agree that tripling the length of the sentence is "short", or even "short enough". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:22, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

  You are being ridiculous. In the first place your hypothetical editor might validly say "But these references do have inline citations, they are not 'general references'." (I presumed this "Bibliography" was an ordinary reference list, as you did not specify otherwise.) Or he will look at other "Further reading" lists and notice that none of them have inline citations, so therefore they ARE "general references", and want to know why they are allowed. And then you will get bogged down in a long and frustrating discussion just like we are having now. All because of an absolutely pointless distinction.

  You are also starting to piss me off. It is ridiculous to say that one explanation is better than another solely because it is shorter. Especially (as I have stated before) when a major part of your explanation is hidden behind a wikilink. If you just want a pissing contest on who can come up with the shortest explanation, fine, I can come up with an explanation in just two words. Can you beat that? Or will you again change the parameters with some new objection? Or perhaps I should be asking: what is your problem? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:10, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm being practical, not ridiculous. People simply won't type long explanations if a short term will do the job. In fact, they often won't even type out the term itself, if they think they can get away with an abbreviation. Think about it: how often do you see people typing out "Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources" in discussion? Does anyone use WP:IRS? It's almost always "You need WP:Reliable sources for that" or "You need a WP:RS". I'm sure that many people would prefer to type "That's a WP:GENREF" to save themselves a few keystrokes.

My example features true general references, as the term is used here on the English Misplaced Pages. I wouldn't say that they were general references if they were actually part of an inline citation system, after all. If he reads the links I provided in my short reply, then he'd know exactly what the difference is: General references were consulted by the people writing the article, and Further reading items were not. He will learn, for example, that Further reading entries do not always "go beyond the material covered in the article". They may be listed because of their historical value or simplicity.

What I want is nothing: I want no change. I want the term that is in active use to continue to be correctly defined on this page. You are free to avoid this bit if wikijargon yourself, but I don't want you to remove it and thus make it difficult for people to figure out what the other editors are talking about when they toss this term around. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:20, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

So you asked how I would explain a certain point to another editor, and after I did so you come up with this criterion that it is not short enough. Which is ridiculous. Your rationale that people prefer to type abbreviations than full titles is beside the point, as you confuse a reference or pointer to an explanation with the explanation itself. (If you want to play by those rules, fine, and, as I said before, I can "explain" in just two words. How high on the wall can you piss?) What I am trying to work out is the explanation that would be behind a wikilink.

To get back to your hypothetical case: please tell me how the references in a "Further reading" list (per WP:Further reading), lacking inline citations, are not "general references" by the current definition. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

GENREFs are always used to build the article. FURTHER items are normally not. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:27, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

• Agree with what WhatamIdoing just said. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:55, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

  Additionally, this distinction has been explained on the page he linked for about two years now. It's the Misplaced Pages:Further reading#Relation to reference sections section. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:53, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

But you did not include that link in your "short explanation" above. And it goes beyond the current definiton of "general reference"; your explanation is incomplete. (Too short!) In particular, how are we know whether a given source was read ("used") by an editor "to build article content"? If one of your general references lacks any notation that it was "actually used" in or supports material in the article, then how can any other editor determine whether a given source should be referenced as general or further reading? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

It is up to the editor to cite sources that he/she used while writing the article, on pain of being considered a plagiarist. In some cases, this can take the form of just putting the source in a list of sources with a heading such as "Bibliography" or "References". The presence of the source in such a list, in combination with the absence of any mention of the source in any inline citation, lets subsequent editors know it is a general reference. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Using a source (perhaps for evaluting other sources) does not necessarily mean the source supports content; to cite the sources I have consulted ("used") without actually taking any material would double some of my artcles. But possibly you mean "used" in the sense of "took from", yes? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:09, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

By used, I mean the editor wrote the article differently than he/she would have if he/she hadn't consulted the source. It could be taking a fact that can be looked up in any textbook on the subject, so doesn't really need an inline citation. But it could also be the order of presentation, or deciding what facts to include and which to omit. If the article includes formulas, it might be the names of the variables, if several different choices are common in the field. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

  So you are distinguishing between 1) where a source is used directly to support content (such as quotations, etc.), and 2) where an editor "used" (consulted) sources for background, to evaluate other sources, and as you have listed. But perhaps this does not matter, if we take the qualification from WP:Further reading#Relation to reference sections ("not used by editors to build the current article content") to mean used for content, or used otherwise. But this goes beyond the definition of "general reference", so Whatamidoing's explanation above is incomplete.

  To get back to my prior point: how is anyone else to know this key dataum, that a source not cited inline has not been "used to build the article"? You suggest "the absence of any mention of the source in any line citation"... but that's what I am talking about, sources not cited inline. Given such an uncited reference, how are we to know if some editor "used" it (for content, or otherwise)? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:24, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

That depends on the context. In a large article with many sources we do not, however in small article with a very specific sources at the end we do (examples Partial_linear_space, Dinostratus'_theorem). More importantly it doesn't really matter whether the original editor used a given source or not. What matters instead is that the given source, be it an inline citation, general reference or whatever, supports the article's content, that is the content it can be associated with.

Another to keep in mind regarding the "how do we (or does a 2nd editor) know" is, that we never know for sure, unless we actually do read all the given sources ourselves.--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

  It does matter, to the extent that it is important (allegedly) for identifying "general references". (And the added requirement for "further references".) Yet, as you say, "we never know for sure". For the most part we can only rely on (as Jc said) "the presence of the source in such a list". Which is to say, if an editor puts a reference ("not cited inline") in a "Reference" list, we have to rely on that editor's inherent characterization (absent explicit indications otherwise) that it does support content. (And in "Further reading" the implication is that it neither supports nor was used.) So another (and shorter!!) response to W's hypothetical is: insufficent information to assess any change.

  Which illustrates the main point that I have been trying to communicate: despite the nicety with which WP:GENREF and other pronoucements have been applied, they do not really help us. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:44, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Ok you lost me there completely and right no i have no idea anymore what you're trying to communicate.--Kmhkmh (talk) 23:17, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Ooops! Okay, a brief reprise. I have been claiming that the current definition of "general reference" is useless. In a hypothetical example regarding how to explain that some unspecified "general references" may not be included in a "Further reading" section, Whatamidoing asked for alternative language that does not use the term "general references". At this point I have asked how we are to distinguish a "further reference" from a "general reference". The key distinction seems to be whether an editor has "used" the source referred to, either directly in support of content, or in some other manner (as suggested by Jc3s5h). On this subpoint I agree with you that we (generally) can not know. Wherefore I conclude that the exacting manner in which editors try to apply these fine distinctions is useless, in that we lack information essential to the distinction. These distinctions do not help us. (Okay?) ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:06, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

So what term do you want to use for the type of sourcing of which i posted 2 examples above?--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:05, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I believe that J. Johnson proposes that no term be given, and that every time you need to refer to this concept, you type out one or more sentences to explain it.

Figuring out whether a given source supports content can be impossible in some instances. However, in most instances, it's not so hard. You find the edit that added the source, and if it's by someone who didn't edit the article, then it's probably FURTHER (or maybe REFSPAM). If it was added by someone who also expanded the article, then it's probably GENREF. If you really can't figure it out, then you assume that the person adding the source correctly labeled it. Sometimes your assumption will be wrong, but that's the only practical solution, if it's unclear. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:16, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. More particularly, I claim that the distinction made by the definition is not particularly useful, is not needful, and variant from the common and standard meaning of "general". If making that distinction is needful (such as in a discussion like this) it can be described. But in general it is not needed, not even in the hypothetical example. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:08, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Even as we go sliding off to another facet, I would point out that hypothetical explanation W provided could be simplified by omitting the reference to "general references". E.g., it could be cast as: The sources referenced in a "Further reading" section should comply with the guidelines in WP:Further reading. Referring to WP:General references is thus not necessary. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:19, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

What is a citation?

WID your argument that general references are acceptable on their own is not the position that most editors support (I provide this example (February 2011) in the archives of this page higher up in this conversation). I frequently break up "Biography" sections into two "References" and "Further reading" and place articles one or the other depending on whether the sources is cited with the use of a short citation or long inline citations (also it is not infrequent to find cited sources listed in a Bibliography section or an "External links" section solely on whether it has a link to an online version -- a misreading of how to cite sources). The reasons for doing this are two fold. The first is that over time many articles that have little to no regular editorial oversight accumulate fluff with all but the kitchen sink being thrown into a general references section.

For example I have recently been through about 1500 articles that cite: Kidd's Debrett's Peerage and Baronetage (1990 edition) in the References section, (less than half a dozen were inline and not one had a page number). In nearly ever case that citation was accompanied either by a general citation to the home page of {{rayment}} or to Darryl Lundy's home page: The Peerage or both (see for example Charles Cocks, 1st Baron Somers). In practical terms it means that most of these articles have no citations to reliable sources (in the general references sections). For the moment I have just tagged them with in-line tags and added no-citations, but in the long run something will have to be done to fix the entries particularly those that are BLPs.

The second reason for splitting up list of sources into "References" and "Further reading" it helps other editors to identify people adding bogus entries in a references section for advertising purposes.

So I think that using "general reference" to mean "is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not displayed as an inline citation" is more useful than changing its meaning.

The problem with using "full citation" is it implies that the bullet pointed references in the references section should include page numbers and other information that may instead be split between short and long citations.

I have reverted the changes that were recently made as there is no evidence that there is any sort of consensus for the change WhatamIdoing made.

-- PBS (talk) 13:18, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I find it increasingly to see what you're arguing about. In fact I see no meaningful difference between your version and that of WhatamIdoing. They are 2 slightly different formulations of essentially stating the same thing. Nor can I see how that slight difference of formulation has any effect on your example of the Debrett's Peerage and Baronetage usage.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:23, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

PBS, you've misused the tag here. {{Unref}} is for pages with no reliable sources named whatsoever. I recommend reading the instructions at the template's doc page. The template that you actually want is {{No footnotes}}, which is the one that says there's a list in the article, but no inline citations. I've fixed that page for you, but you need to go fix any others that you made that error on. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I am not misusing the tag (despite what is said on the documentation page of the template unreferenced). The wording of {{No footnotes}} is broken, as it implies that external links and "related reading" are sources for an article -- they are not (see the talk page of the template for more details on this). {{unreferenced}} simply says "This article does not cite any references or sources", which is an accurate statement. This is one of the reasons why I think the changes you made on 15 February are not helpful as it puts back into this guideline the discredited idea that general references are citations, which is not what WP:V says. -- PBS (talk) 10:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry to see that we're struggling with such basic material. The term citation is defined in the very first sentence of this guideline:

A citation, or reference, is a line of text that uniquely identifies a source:

Ritter, Ron. The Oxford Style Manual. Oxford University Press, 2002, p. 1.

Therefore, ==Further reading== and ==External links== are actually filled with citations—just not (unless someone has screwed up) citations to reliable sources that were actually used to write the article—as are any sections containing general references or inline citations. Our definition does not require that bibliographic citations be only inline.

WP:V makes no claim that citations are not citations. WP:V only says that non-inline citations are insufficient for the few things absolutely required to have an inline citation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

If an article includes no references to sources, then certainly that is a matter of {{Unreferenced}} (and its redirect, {{Unref}}). The problem is where there are references, but not inline citations (or other notes) to the references showing where or how they are applied. This is a problem because without perusing the source (and lacking other information) we have no way of knowing whether these are "general references", and thereby deemed okay, or are bogus. And therein lies the fundamental problem with this notion of "general references": the acceptance of references without inline citations. I have previously shown that sources used in a truly general manner can still be cited in a note. So there appear to be no reasons why any reference cannot be cited. And an excellent reason why they should be: to show how they are used. This "general reference" distinction is useful only for identifying references that should be cited inline. And actually harmful in condoning inclusion of sources without showing how they are used. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:01, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Slapping ref tags around the same citation and sticking it at the end of a sentence also doesn't tell you whether or not the cited source validly supports the content, either. A lot of refspam is completely bogus. Formatting cannot tell you whether a source is either reliable or properly used.

The problem in this discussion, though, is that PBS apparently thinks that citation is an exact synonym for inline citation, which is not true. According to PBS, Atomic semantics, a three-sentence stub complete with one bibliographic citation listed under the heading of ==References==, is just as unsourced as if that references section were blank. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:44, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you are quite right, the mere presence of a citation (no matter how nicely it is formatted) does not guarantee it validly supports the content. For that we rely on the good faith and competence of editor, just as we do regarding that there is such a source, it is reliable, s/he consulted it and interpreted it correctly, etc. Nonetheless, associating the citation at the particular material ("inline") it allegedly supports (and specifying the page/location in the source of the support) vastly reduces the effort to verify that support, because we can assume it supports that material; we don't have to see if it supports any material in the article.

However, not doing the whole inline citation for short stub articles seems to be an accepted practice, however sloppy. And you will have to admit that a three sentence article hardly leaves much confusion as to where it applies. Indeed, I would say that (although it is included under "References") the note at Atomic semantics is a general reference in the proper sense of the word: applicable to the whole.

BTW, note my comment in the previous subsection that referencing "General references" is not necessary in explaining "Further reading". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Lists : Do we need to provide sources for each item ?

This is such a basic issue that I'm sure it has already been addressed but I cannot locate the relevant rule. So here goes: When a list contains nothing but wikipedia entries, with the definitions for each listed item provided in the item's respective wiki entry, do we need to include sources for each item in the list's page too ? Thanks in advance for any guidance. -The Gnome (talk) 11:21, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

You have not provided enough information to give a yes or no answere. It depends on what the list is and whether a specific entry in that list could be seen as outside general knowledge. For example a bullet pointed list of US presidents, would probably not need a citation for Abraham Lincoln (although it might be necessary for less famous presidents included in such a list), but a numbered list that states Lincoln was the 16th president probably does, as that is probably beyond the general knowledge of an English speaking person born outside the United States. However this is not the place to discuss this, as the guidance/policy for such entries relies on WP:V "Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation". Also if the list is in anyway controversial and includes living people then of course the list needs citations (WP:BLP).-- PBS (talk) 10:43, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

It is not WP:LIKELY that list items will be challenged if the information in the list is a basic fact that can be trivially verified by clicking through, even if most people don't know anything about it. For example, if you decided to create a "List of hospitals in Quebec", you probably won't need to provide inline citations to prove that the entries really are hospitals or really are in Quebec (unless someone does actually challenge them, of course). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:01, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I will present again the precise context in which I seek advice: A list that contains nothing but items having their own separate wiki articles. The items are described in the list by quoting directly from the relevant wiki articles. The relevant, supporting articles are all referenced. I offer as an example of such a list the List of acronyms: European sovereign-debt crisis. -The Gnome (talk) 09:13, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists for guidelines. Remember that Misplaced Pages articles may be reused, so each article needs to stand on it's own, especially annotated lists. --— Gadget850 (Ed) 12:28, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

But the lists to which I'm referring are composed exclusively by wiki articles! The references mandated by the relevant style manual are the Misplaced Pages articles in themselves. I gave an example above. Another example are lists of gay persons, whereby only persons already denoted in their Misplaced Pages biography as gays are included. Why should such lists need a repetition of the references already extant in the respective Misplaced Pages articles? -The Gnome (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Gnome, you keep responding as if people were telling you "Yes, absolutely, you must always provide inline citations no matter how stupid it seems!" So once again, let's run through this. There are exactly four situations that require inline citations on Misplaced Pages. They are (see WP:MINREF):

• A direct quotation: Do these lists contain direct quotations?
• Something that has been WP:CHALLENGED: Has anyone actually fact-tagged items? Left complaints on the talk page? Anything like that?
• Something that you believe is WP:LIKELY to get challenged: What's your guess about the probability, using your best editorial judgment? More than 50%?
• Contentious matter about BLPs: Anything about living people here that might upset folks?

If the answer is "no" to four out of four items, then no policy requires any inline (or other) citations, full stop. If the answer is "yes" to any one item, then whatever list entry triggers that "yes" must have an inline citation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:31, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that Gnome is referring to material that has been properly cited, but in another article. What he is talking about is where the references "are the Misplaced Pages articles in themselves." Particularly: "Why should such lists need a repetition of the references already extant in ?" Gnome: that would be essentially citing Misplaced Pages, which we don't do. If some material needs to be cited — and I think we are all agreed as to what — then it has to be cited to the external source in each article. Each article has to stand on its sources on its own. Okay? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:28, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Then let's be clear: If the answer is "yes" to any one item, then whatever list entry triggers that "yes" must have an inline citation in that article, not just somewhere on the website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:01, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, let's be clear. W, it seems to me there has been absolutely no dispute that certain material requires references. (So why are you belaboring it?) The issue was, as Gnome clearly asked, and I repeated, whether there must be repetition of such references across articles. I think we can all agree that the answer to that is "yes", that all references needed within an article must be contained with in the article.

I believe we have consensus on this. Does anyone object? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:35, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Why am I belaboring the requirements? Because of the flip side. These four things are required to have inline citations on that page—and nothing else is required to have any citations anywhere. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Our policy on that "Lists, whether they are embedded lists or stand-alone lists, are encyclopedic content as are paragraphs and articles, and they are equally subject to Misplaced Pages's content policies such as Verifiability" to ensure that each item to be included on the list is adequately referenced and that the page on which the list appears as a whole represents a neutral point of view.Moxy (talk) 00:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's exactly the same rules. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

SO WE ARE ALL AGREEED! Fine, nothing more to say, let's all go home. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 02:28, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who came forward with advice and/or opinion. Appreciated! -The Gnome (talk) 00:47, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I just saw this discussion and I am late with this comment. Since I don't see the point made above, though, I'll make it now. WP:CIRCULAR says "Do not use articles from Misplaced Pages or from websites that mirror its content as sources, because this would amount to self-reference." Misplaced Pages articles are NOT reliable sources. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

...And it opens again! :-) Thanks for the input, and yours IMO is an important point. However, the difference here is this: It's not about a Misplaced Pages article that uses as references other Misplaced Pages articles. It's about a list, whereby each and every item listed directs to the respective Misplaced Pages article, properly referenced on its own. Clearly, as the consensus above indicates, there is no need to repeat in the list the references in those Misplaced Pages articles. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 06:48, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Not really. Lists are articles (unless the list's purpose is for navigation, e.g., a dab page). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:18, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Alright. When the list in question meets none of the four criteria listed in the relevant rule, then there is no need to repeat the citations already extant in the respective Misplaced Pages aerticles. A list, therefore, such as this, whereby BLPs are not involved at all, there are no direct quotations and nothing has ever been challenged nor is likely to be challenged, does not need to have citations. Thanks, again. -The Gnome (talk) 11:03, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

harvnb vs. sfn

I am a new editor. Another editor showed me how to use short citations with harvnb in, which I use in an article How to Create a Mind where I cite the same book over and over (maybe too much). It seems to work fine. But now I read "sfn" is newer? In Help:Shortened_footnotes the "render as" for both look identical. Are there any differences between the two? Is there any reason to swap over from harvnb to sfn? Or use one or the other in the future? More generally, is the citation style in my article appropriate? Thanks. Silas Ropac (talk) 13:26, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

The {{harvnb}} template is normally enclosed in <ref>...</ref> tags, e.g. <ref>{{harvnb|Smith|2008|p=12}}</ref>, whereas the {{sfn}} template constructs its own <ref>...</ref> tags, so you only need put {{sfn|Smith|2008|p=12}}. On the final page they are visually identical.

But besides being shorter to type, {{sfn}} scores when you cite the same page number (or range) twice - it detects the duplication and merges the references (see e.g. refs 1, 4, 5, 6 of NBR 224 and 420 Classes), whereas with {{harvnb}} you need to name the <ref> tag in order to perform the merge. For example, {{sfn|Smith|2008|p=12}} is exactly equivalent to <ref name="FOOTNOTESmith200812">{{harvnb|Smith|2008|p=12}}.</ref> --Redrose64 (talk) 13:50, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Okay thanks, now I do see Help:Shortened_footnotes shows that {{sfn}} doesn't need <ref>...</ref> tags, I just didn't notice. It doesn't talk about combining page numbers that I see, but that will be nice because I do have some dups that look a bit silly right now. So yeah I think I will switch, and will use sfn going forward, good to know. Silas Ropac (talk) 14:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

@Redrose64 it is not quite the same. {{sfn}} places a full stop at the end of the citation. With the {{harvnb}} example you have given it does not. I have known pedants who do not want other editors to include new citations using {{sfn}} to argue that the addition of a full stop is a change in style. Personally I think that such arguments are less than helpful. -- PBS (talk) 10:46, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

You can remove or change the postscript using |ps=. See the {{sfn}} documentation. --— Gadget850 (Ed) 13:02, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I happen to detest these automatic merges of footnotes, and "named refs" in general, as it means the citation gets buried somewhere else in the article, which can be a real hassle when you have to change something. So I recommend using Harv from the outset. But aside from that, I would say that if you have no other reason to change from one style to the other: don't. There can be reasons for changing, but none, I think, so compelling as to concern a new editor. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:07, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

How is {{sfn}} "buried somewhere else in the article"? It's always right where you expect it. Look at NBR 224 and 420 Classes; find any ref marker, like , and locate those portions of text where that occurs (in this case it's "the first inside-cylinder 4-4-0 to run in Great Britain;" and "predated the G&SWR 6 Class"). Now edit those sections and you will see that the ref in both cases is immediately after the phrase, not "buried somewhere else" - it is given as {{sfn|Boddy|Brown|Fry|Hennigan|1968|p=5}}. If we later discovered that the information about either one of these claims was not on page 5 but on a different page, we simply need to amend that one instance of |p=5 to whatever the correct page was, and that action would not affect the one which had the correct page number. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, yes, you are quite right, and I apologize for being unclear and implying that {{sfn}} suffers from the sins of "named refs". The main point, which I believe we both can agree on, is that if an editor is satisfied with either {{harv}} or {{sfn}} there little reason to switch. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

When you say "satisfied with either {{harv}} or {{sfn}} there little reason to switch". Do you mean using {{harv}} like this: {{harv|smith|2013|p=100}} --which produces an inline citation-- or <ref>{{harv|smith|2013|p=100}}</ref> --which produces a citation within a ref...tag footnote? -- PBS (talk) 10:46, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Does it matter? And if are going to discuss fine points of where a citation is placed should we not do this in a new section? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 18:50, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

There is a scenario where you would want to use both. You might use sfn for most of your footnotes, but have one or two that need some explanation as well as the short citation, in which case you would use harvnb. For example, you might want to both cite the source, and provide some additional details that would interrupt the flow of the article. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:05, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. I am not at all shy about using {{harv}} with and without <ref> tags. But isn't this off-topic for this section? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:54, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Kindle for PC

Does anyone know how you cite books that have been downloaded to kindle for PC? The page numbering system is different and it uses ASIN rather than ISBN. Cheers.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 12:34, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Resolved; I've found the wiki page on it, Template:ASIN.  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 13:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Most of the Citation Style 1 templates - {{cite book}} included - have the |asin= parameter already provided, so there should be no need to use {{ASIN}} separately. If there are actual page numbers, use |page= or |pages= as usual, but if there is some other means of indicating the position within the work, use |at= --Redrose64 (talk) 16:09, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

People keep asking about this, so we need to add the basic instructions (e.g., "if there aren't page numbers, then try the chapter title") to WP:Page numbers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you  Kitchen Roll  (Exchange words) 13:30, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

I've added these instructions. I offered examples of chapter numbers, section headings, standard divisions in plays and scholarly systems for standardized works. I think this probably gives people enough ideas, but feel free to improve. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:25, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Unexpected ref error message

I made this edit . It removed three named refs, defined elsewhere on the page. Still te page produces ref errors (at end of page). Why? I only removed a <ref name="..."/>. Not the ref link ifself (3x), that is still there. -DePiep (talk) 01:57, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

The article uses list-defined references, which means that the full bibliographic information is typed in the reference section near the end of the article. This system requires that each source contained in the list at the end be used at least once somewhere in the article, before the reference section, with a footnote such as <ref name="haaretz-pepperspray" />. Your edit removed the only footnotes referring to the sources with the names "haaretz-pepperspray", "haaretz-stabbing", and "guardian-sherwood", hence the error messages. You can fix them by removing the corresponding sources from the reference section. Jc3s5h (talk) 02:12, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Short cites

Does anyone object to the clarification that a short cite can reference a full bibliographic citation that exists in either an earlier footnote or a separate references section? Since the issue is unsettled, I thought that both should be in the text and not just one point of view. --Bejnar (talk) 19:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I consider it unwise for a short cite to refer to an earlier footnote, for three reasons. First, this might be seen as advocating the use of ibid., which can easily be disturbed by future edits. Second, material may be rearranged, so that the order of entries may be reversed. Third, there is a greater risk of deleting a citation without noticing that another citation depends on it. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:05, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Your first one I don't understand since other places rail properly against ibid. The second is not a problem with harv, is it? The third is a problem regardless as anything that uses the "name slash ref" to hook up a previous cite has that danger. Are you against those as well? But my point was not whether it was a good or bad idea, but merely that as there was no consensus, that both points of view should be represented. --Bejnar (talk) 21:35, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

For sure, ibid is disallowed. But nothing here is advocating it. The main point is that a short cite always references a full citation — where ever it is. And as putting a full cite in a note is standard practice here, as well as fully acceptable by all (?) style authorities, it seems warranted to mention that. I haven't seen any reason why short cites require full citations in a separate references section. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Nobody has so far complained about the technique that I used for refs 2 & 6 of Boar's Head railway station. The essential features are there: the source is identified, and the page within that source is given. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:30, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I think Redrose's example is a perfectly acceptable approach. Sure, there's a small chance that you might accidentally lose a full citation, but you can always go back in the history to retrieve it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:39, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. There are several good reasons for keeping the full citations in their own area, and I think that ought to be recommended. But lest any confusion develop it seems wise to mention that the full citations/references do not have be in a special section in order to use short cites. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:42, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Citing straight line distances on maps

I wish to use some straight line/great circle (as the crow flies) distance figures in an article, and have obtained them using the Google Maps distance calculator tool (part of the Maps Labs suite). Unfortunately, however, it seems that distances generated through this tool cannot be directly referenced by a link to Google Maps. I'm wondering what is the best way to get around this. Could I take a screenshot of the Google map with guidance as to which points are being measured so that others can go to the source and verify for themselves? Or is there some better way to cite straight line/great circle distances as measured on a map? Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 12:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course you can cite maps; otherwise, {{Cite map}} wouldn't exist. It's not necessary to provide a URL. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:39, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

It's not the map he wants to cite, but the distance calculated from a map. Curious problem. The only problem with doing a calculation is if it is not obvious. I had a similar issue with an azimuth, and settled for putting in a note explaining the basis of the calculation and which on-line calculator I used. The idea is that there is enough information that someone else, using the same data and process, will get a similar result. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

That was sort of my thought on the matter. I mean technically one could take a map and a ruler and measure off the distance straight off. That's original research maybe, but of a straightforward nature that anyone could reproduce. Similarly the reference could be "measure from this point to that point" which could be done using instructions for Google maps distance. Do you guys think that would satisfy the Misplaced Pages rules regarding citations? Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:04, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Technically you can run into all sorts of problems trying to do it yourself. (E.g., which projection does the map use? Are you measuring a great circle or rhumb line?) So I recommend using some standard calculator. If someone complains they get a different result (different calculator?) then you might have to dig into it. But unless and until there is some issue I would say just specify in a note that you plugged into this calculator these two coordinates and got this result. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:12, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

In creating the article 1945 Japan–Washington flight, I used this tool which will give the distance between any two airports and between US zip codes. If this is about your userspace draft relevant to Rwanda then I don't know if it will help. Binksternet (talk) 23:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Full citations

PBS has reverted several changes because he disagrees with the English Misplaced Pages's definition of WP:General references and apparently the normal definition of full citation. Full citation is used in multiple sources, including CMOS (e.g., 14.14 and elsewhere). It is defined in the Kaplan style guide like this:

"There are two basic types of citations. One is called a full citation, which appears on the references page, in the bibliography section, or a works cited page.... A full citation is just that—it provides complete information about a source so that a reader can look up the publication."

Full citation is the normal academic term for a bibliographic entry that contains all the information needed to identify the source. Full citation contrasts directly with shortened citation. The inline vs non-inline nature is irrelevant: if you have a full/complete/unabridged description of the source, then you have a full citation. Although any ==General references== section ought to be composed entirely of full citations, it is not the same thing, and using the term general references throughout has both been a source of confusion and also makes the guideline self-contradictory.

Does anyone else object to reverting PBS's change? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:52, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I did not make a change I reverted a change that you made!

A full citation would include page numbers and other things to identify the relevant text. That is not what usually goes into a general references section. Further we clearly make a distinction on Misplaced Pages about what is an acceptable citation method and your proposed change is a retrograde step because new editors who are unfamiliar with WP:PROVEIT are likely to believe that works placed in a general references section are acceptable as citations for Misplaced Pages articles when they are not. -- PBS (talk) 13:52, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

PBS, you made up "works placed in a general references section are acceptable as citations for Misplaced Pages articles when they are not." That is not the policy. The relevant policy from WP:V is "All quotations and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." There are printed style guides that specifically allow including works that are not linked to any particular part of the citing work in a bibliography, so the allowance of general references in Misplaced Pages is not aberrant. Also, the version of WP:CITE favored by whatamidoing correctly expresses the long-standing agreement of what a general citation is (for Misplaced Pages purposes), and you have not demonstrated any change in the consensus. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:10, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

You write in the edit history PBS's version does not agree with long-accepted meaning of "general reference" in Misplaced Pages. but it is not my version I am reverting to the current consensus version. See here for a version at the start of this year and here for a version from the start of 2012 and here at the start of 2011 in all of them it is stated "A general reference is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not displayed as an inline citation". So it is not I who need to show a change in consensus (as I am not changing the wording) it is those who wish to change the wording. -- PBS (talk) 15:17, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• I strongly disagree with PBS's interpretation. Also, PBS said that the reversion was back to the last version by Vegaswikian. However, it appears that their was no such version as Vegaswikian did not edit it in the last three years that I could see. (Most recent Vegaswikian edit seems to be 22 June 2008 where it says Articles can be supported with references in two ways: the provision of general references – books or other sources that support a significant amount of the material in the article – ...) It appears instead that PBS reverted the article back to almost the last version by PBS. The location (placement) of the bibliographic information about a general reference does not affect its nature. --Bejnar (talk) 15:44, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• • It was a version by Themeparkgc not (Vegaswikian) my mistake (See below for a fuller explanation). --PBS (talk) 09:03, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• The 2011 version mentioned above by PBS does not confuse a general reference as something that could be referred to by a short footnote, although that confusion does occur in the 2012 version he mentioned.

The sentence "A short citation identifies the place in a source where specific information can be found, but without giving full details of the source – these will have been provided in a general reference" was introduced by Kotniski at 08:38, 9 September 2011, and in my view, that edit introduced the non-consensus idea that a general reference is general because it refers to the entire source rather than specific pages in the source, while the consensus view is that the quality that makes a reference general is that it is not linked to any particular part of the Misplaced Pages article.

Looking at a September 2011 version of the talk page, it seems that the participants were kind of saying they agreed with each other without really understanding each other's point of view. But I don't think we can use "general reference" to include a citation that is referred to by a short citation, because we need a phrase to describe a citation that is not linked to any particular part of the Misplaced Pages article. That is an important concept to be able to describe, because it is usually not a good idea, but is occasionally acceptable. I also believe the description of a general reference in the January 2011 version refelects the way the term has usually been used in the guideline and the talk page, and the September 2011 talk page discussion does not reflect the overall consensus.

Looking at other style guides, whenever I see descriptions of kinds of use that must be acknowledged to avoid plagiarism, it always seems to require that a specific passage in the article being written must have an inline citation to an appropriate part of the source. So general references, whether to an entire large work, or a page within a large work, are allowed by printed style guides, but they do not serve to prevent plagiarism. Similarly, an inline citation to a large work without giving a page or other means to locate the relevant part of the work does not serve to prevent plagiarism.

So a way forward might to be to do away with the concept of a general reference and just say there is no distinction between general references and further reading. A separate "Further reading" section may be provided, or the further reading may be interspersed with the "References" (a.k.a. "Bibliography"). The presence of full citations (with or without pages) that are not linked to a particular passage by an inline citation does not serve to prevent plagiarism. Of course, a few articles may not contain any quotes, paraphrases, or facts that are not well-known, and thus have no concerns with plagiarism. A stub may be so short that its are effectively inline citations, even they are not in that form. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:11, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I my memory serves me well, Kotniski made his edit with full consultation on the talk page (see the archives). I disagree with the removal of the concept of general references from this guideline (whatever it is called) because they exist in 100,000 of articles. I think it is a very bad idea to encourage the combination of "References" and "Further reading" sections. -- PBS (talk) 09:03, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• I have written a revision in my sandbox that tries to clear up the inconsistency and unnecessary distinctions. Sections of the guideline I would leave unchanged are omitted. My approach was:

• Treat full citation as all the information needed to find the relevant part of a source, whether that information is located all in one bibliography entry, or divided amongst one or more short footnotes and one bibliography entry.
• Highlight that citations not only support claims, but also prevent plagiarism.
• Since general references don't prevent plagiarism, tone down the distinction between general references and further reading.

Some might prefer to use the term reference list entry instead of bibliography entry; I don't have a strong preference either way. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:29, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Overall, I don't think that we want to tone down the distinction between GENREFs and FURTHERs.

One of the oddities of the discussion is the insistence on page numbers. Atomic semantics is a good example: it has one full citation as a general reference. That citation contains page numbers. Does it truly need the page numbers? I don't think so: the source is an article in Distributed Computing (journal). The entire article has been cited. If you pulled the correct volume of the periodical, you could easily determine the page numbers. So here we have page numbers, but they're not actually helpful, and we have people saying that the absence of page numbers (or other details to identify precisely subsections of the source) makes the citation be something other than a full citation. Could you find this source without page numbers? Of course. The presence or absence of page numbers isn't a useful, valid, or verifiable distinction. Yes, it's best to include them if they're relevant, but they're not the defining feature of a full citation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:20, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I think this is bit of misunderstanding/misconception, not page numbers as such matter but a sufficient specificity. Giving a page number is just the most common or simplest form to provide enough specificity. It reasonable to expect of some checking a source to browse/read a few pages rather than just a particular line or paragraph, since in doubt you have to do that anyhow to have some proper context information to understand the line or paragraph in question. Hence as specificity it can be considered good enough to narrow it down to few pages. Now most/many journal or newspaper articles only contain pages anyway and the article within the newspaper or journal can be found quickly through a table of content, index or an online/archive link, it may often be sufficient to simple state the title without specific page numbers. Similarly for a book it might be sufficient to state a chapter, provided that's short enough. However it not reasonable to expect reader to read a double digit page number or even a whole book to check some information, hence it those cases more specificity is required, which usually achieved by providing page number or a small range of page number. The bottom line is, providing page numbers is easiest (and most common) way, that always provides enough specificity.--Kmhkmh (talk) 21:08, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I made a mistake. I now see the confusion my edit summary made. Here is the edit diff with my comment was "Reverted changes back to the last version by Vegaswikian. It is clear from the conversation on the talk page that there is no consensus for this change. I have let the insure ensure change in place." The version I reverted to was in fact Themeparkgc's revesion as of 06:06, 10 February 2013 (retaining insure ensure change). This was the edit immanently before WhatamIdoing edit as of 05:24, 15 February 2013 diff. Now that is clear I am reverting to the same stable version. While we discuss an proposed changes.-- PBS (talk) 08:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

With respect to PBS, Kmhkmh, and Whatamidoing: We need to be clearer about page numbers. In many cases, such as articles in journals, the source is incorporated into a larger work, and page numbers indicate the location of the source within the larger work. In this regard inclusion of page numbers in the full reference is entirley valid.

That usage should be distinguished from the use of page numbers for specification of a particular location or passage within the source ("to identify the relevant text", as Phil said). Where a source is cited only once and the full reference is in a note the specification be included in the same note. (The specification is not thereby part of the full reference, it is only sharing the same space in the note.) Where short cites are used the specification goes with the short cite.

Phil said: "A full citation would include page numbers and other things to identify the relevant text." I would say that a full reference — in the sense we have been using it here, as might be seen in a References list — is complete when it points to (describes) the source, and is not any fuller for identifying any contained material. However, from a previous comment I wonder if by "full" Phil means the complete linkage of short cite (including specification) and full reference. I agree we need all the parts, but wonder if "complete citation" would be a better term. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:48, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

It is always valid to include page numbers (in the full reference), but not necessarily always needed. However using page numbers you are always on the safe side.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:04, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, no, not always valid to include page numbers in the full reference. It depends on what they are used for; the full reference would include page numbers that locate the source within a large source, but not page numbers that point to specific text within the source. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 02:30, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Which means it is nevertheless always valid to provide a page number. Again the purpose of the page number is provide enough specificity to locate the content in question easily, that applies to page numbers within the source itself or to page to locate the source within a larger equally. And again in the case of small journal article or a small book chapter it is valid but not strictly necessary, as a table of content allows you to locate the source with the larger source easily and hence the article or chapter name is already specific enough for a location.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:04, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

That assertion deserves a {{Citation needed}} tag at minimum. If you're only using one sentence out of a 500-page book, then it's perfectly fine for your full citation to include that the page number for the relevant sentence. (Besides, if a full citation to a book can't include a page number, then what would you call a citation that includes a page number? A "really, really full citation"?) WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Exactly if we use full citation only for the bibliographic reference of book, we would need a separate name for the citation providing enough specificity to actually locate the (sourcing) content in question. Which makes little sense to me. Furthermore a shorted citation (like author name, page number) would in some sense always provide more specificity than the full citation, which makes little sense either.

Essentially that problems stems from 2 different sourcing scenarios. "full citation" (including a page numer) within a footnote or shortened citation (including a page number) within a footnote and an associated "full citation" (without page number) in the reference section. You might argue in the second case it is not valid to provide a page number again, but I really don't see that either, it would be somewhat uncommon of sorts but certainly not "invalid".--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

It is precisely the problem with citations being split over two lines (with a short citation "the head") and the rest in a general references section "the tail" which is why calling a "general reference" "a citation to a reliable source that supports content" is less than helpful. I think that User:Jc3s5h/sandbox is on the right lines. My major objection to that draft is that there needs to be a clear distinction between a "references" section and a "further reading" section. The use of "Bibliography" should be avoided in this guideline for reasons given in WP:LAYOUT, because not only is "Bibliography" use as a term for a section containing the subjects own works, it confuses some editors into thinking that a section called "Bibliography" can only contain books, (not journals or web pages). -- PBS (talk) 11:22, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Although "bibliography", literally meaning "list of books, has taken on a more general usage, it is subject to the problems you mention. Perhaps we all agree it is therefore not a suitable replacement for "References" (or similar). ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:30, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Philip, please stop restoring your changes. You're mixing up several different issues, as usual. Short cites aren't offered as general references. A general references section isn't linked to short or long cites, hence the term "general" references section. SlimVirgin 17:11, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

SV I think you are confused. I am not restoring changes, I am restoring the last stable version. -- PBS (talk) 17:53, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

You're restoring a version that people have objected to, and which is wrong. Please stop reverting to it. SlimVirgin 18:06, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Why are you reverting to a version which introduces changes, when these changes are under discussion and to which objections have been raised? BRD not BRDR! -- PBS (talk) 18:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I am reverting your changes, Philip, because they are wrong. You have misunderstood what a general reference is, just as you've misunderstood that full citations in References sections don't include page numbers. This is obvious, because a text might refer to the same citation multiple times, referencing different page numbers each time. Are you going to add them all to the References section? It concerns me that an editor who seems not to understand citation systems keeps editing this page. SlimVirgin 18:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Citation system components

I have compiled a table of what words some citation manuals use to discuss the components of a citation system. It doesn't look like we could ever find a set of words that would be compatible with all the pre-existing usage out there. We may very well have to set out our own definitions within the guideline.

If we did, the definitions would only apply to explaining citations; the titles of citation-related sections in articles would still be determined by the citation system chosen for the particular article. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The first section of the guideline define the terms as used in the English Misplaced Pages, and that's precisely why we have to define our terms ourselves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:57, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the "Types of citation" section defines some terms, but it doesn't explicitly state whether it is defining terms just for use in the guideline, or if it is trying to explain the terminology generally used in style manuals. The advantage to making definitions just for the guideline is we don't have to worry if our usage is different from some other publication. The disadvantage is people don't always read a guideline from beginning to end, and so might not be aware of a specialized meaning as they read some subsection. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the table is a good idea, and a good start (thank you), though I think it needs revision and expansion. The key part is exactly as W says, defining the term (or concept). And we should be concerned about consistency with usages outside of this guideline, because people do carry these concepts over, and non-standard usage will only cause confusion. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:49, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Once we sort that out the rest will follow fairly easily. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:49, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The words we use don't matter (editors can choose whatever titles they want for these sections, so long as they're clear), but the concepts are fairly uniform:

• a section for long or short cites linked in the text, with page numbers as appropriate, and for commentary (I call this Notes)
• sometimes a separate section for commentary (I can't remember what people usually call this)
• a section for full citations if short cites have been used in the text (I call this References)
• a general bibliography section containing items of interest (I call this Further reading)

SlimVirgin 18:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Project-Class Help pages
• NA-importance Help pages
• Misplaced Pages Help Project pages