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Revision as of 14:02, 24 March 2013

Discussion regarding Arbcom decision with respect to Will Beback

Background

User:Will Beback was a long time editor who made more than 100,000 edits to Misplaced Pages between 2006 and 2012 often dealing with controversial topics. His top edits can be seen here . During his time editing he was involved in bring two articles to FA status and was awarded many barnstars by the community at large.

He was indefinitely banned by arbcom in 2012 based on three concerns: "outing", "battleground behavior" and "personal attacks". Per here Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy_ban_appeal#Will_Beback:_conduct_issues

The so called "outing" which occurred was an off Misplaced Pages private email relating to COI regarding a new religious movement (I as an administrator was party to these emails and was involved in the case in question).

Evidence for so called "battleground conduct" include comments he made regarding issues of conflict of interest generall. For example on Jimmy Wales talk page he wrote "Tell that to the ArbCom." Other comments are , , .

The evidence for "personal attacks" include evidence like this , , which are not personal attacks but a discussion of COI which is allowed during a RfC/U

A year has passed and Will Beback has requested that arbcom allow him to return to editing. They have refused supposedly without justification per off wiki communication.

Concerns

• The above evidence makes it appear as if arbcom was blocking Will Beback as retribution for his comments regarding them. Misplaced Pages has policies against using admin tools in cases in which one is involved and in this case it appears we have arbcom exercising their authority against an editor in which arbcom is involved. When did it become a bannable offense to discuss COI? While the edits listed as "personal attacks" are not useful comments I have seen much much worse resulting in no sanctions at all let alone a site ban.

Comments from Will Beback

"I have honored the ban for more than one year, during which time I have neither engaged in any ban evasion nor in off-wiki campaigning. I have apologized to TimidGuy, expressed my remorse for my errors, and promised to avoid repeating them. In my appeal, I did challenge some of the findings in the case, which I believe were based on insufficient evidence or misinterpretation of policy. Apparently banned users are not allowed to argue for their innocence and can only admit to total guilt and beg for mercy. The appeal was rejected without explanation, and without even telling me who voted for or against it. I am not sure how the ArbCom processes these appeals, which is done entirely in secret. I have been a constructive editor in the past, and believe that I can be again." as per here

Proposal

1) We propose that Will Beback be allowed back to edit English Misplaced Pages

Users who endorse

1. ```Buster Seven Talk 12:02, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
2. As drafter Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:29, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
3. IRWolfie- (talk) 02:11, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
4. pbp 02:19, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
5. A year is a long time, secrecy is bad, we need good editors. That's enough. Rich Farmbrough, 02:25, 24 March 2013 (UTC).
   
6. SlimVirgin 03:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
7. A bit of a POV warrior, but will remain topic-banned from the major problem area, which seems sufficient. Was victimized by one of the worst ArbCom decisions in Misplaced Pages history. Current ArbCom has failed to be transparent in this case and need to be prodded to at least explain their rationale and to state who voted how so that appropriate action can be taken in the next election, as suggested by former Arb JClemens. Carrite (talk) 06:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
8. I only had extremely positive interactions with him. I think a year away from editing is sufficient, and many, many eyes will be on him should he return. AniMate 07:17, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
9. Enthusiastic yes. Rivertorch (talk) 08:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
10. Agree, except for the theory about the arbitrators' motivations. Cardamon (talk) 08:33, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
11. Agree, topic-ban is sufficient.--В и к и T 10:18, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
12. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 12:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
13. Agree. Will Beback's recognition of fault on his part is a significant change from the time of the Timid Guy case. Returning to unrelated topics, formalised by a topic-ban, would be a good way forward. Mathsci (talk) 13:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
14. Agree, per Farmbrough. Smallbones<sub>(smalltalk)</sub> 13:19, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Users who oppose

1. If you don't like ArbCom's decision, elect people to ArbCom who will make different decisions. The turnover between then and now was non-trivial, yet there's no consensus to let him resume editing... why might that be? Jclemens (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
2. Arbcom said that he must appeal to ArbCom after 6 months. That's how this should be overturned, not some community discussion. Elect differnet Arbs if someone gets banned and wants to come back, don't try to circumvent an ArbCom decision. gwickwire<sub>editing</sub> 01:01, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
3. VERY strongly oppose — Ched :  ?  01:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
4. Doing a RFC to propose unbanning of an editor that was banned by ArbCom is going down a slippery slope that is only going to get ugly. We don't need more drama right now. Secret 03:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
5. Oppose. I do not agree with infinite bans. That being said, WBB could easily compose a statement to be posted here. I do not like third party appeals to the community.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:42, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
6. Firm Oppose, he should abide by the ArbCom decision, and per Risker below a proper venue for this kind of request is thataway. Trying to overturn an ArbCom decision with an RfC like this is a bad precedent and a slippery slope as Secret states above. This appears to be an attempt to perform an end run around our duly elected Arbitration Committee. And why hasn't WBB edited his own page with his request, his apology and 'lesson learned' statement that the author of this RFC has posted above, is he banned from editing his own talk page? Did WBB actually write ArbCom recently and ask to be unbanned, along with the necessary assurances of good behavior? The only things 'secret' in that ArbCom case were the personal identities of some of the involved; and WBB was not banned for "criticizing ArbCom", that's very clear from reading the case; claiming he was banned for criticizing ArbCom is just a twisting of the facts. Dreadstar ☥ 07:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
7. Strong Oppose Will Beback very clearly showed that he cannot be trusted to edit neutrally nor act appropriately on Misplaced Pages. I fail to see how time will have changed this. In all likelihood, things would end up being even worse than before and no one wants to go through that headache again. Silverseren 08:50, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
8. Oppose I have no dog in this fight, except as an editor of WP who respects the process of allowing people elected to a position to do their tasks as charged. This ArbCom decision seems to have occurred within the existing framework. Regardless of whether it's "allowed", this RFC seems like a waste of time for a group of volunteers who have enough to do, and I agree with Jclemens that the election will come around again. It's just WP - no one is in jail. -- Scray (talk) 13:41, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Users who object on RfC neutrality grounds

• Comment RfC statements are supposed to be neutral and brief. This RfC is not neutrally worded and needs to be restated in a neutral manner. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:14, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
  • It's in userspace. Secret 03:16, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

What is wrong with the neutrality? Feel free to add concerns about this user which could justify an indef ban. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:40, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Per RFC, the RFC statement should be neutral and brief, your RFC is neither; and adding an opposing POV as you suggest won't make it neutral either, it'll just make it worse. You need to take it to where it belongs, Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment. - Dreadstar ☥ 09:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Comments

• Comment--WBB was banned for persistent personal attacks, outing, harassment and battleground conduct as Doc has stated above. However editors may want to look at all the full range of diffs provided by the Committee for each finding rather than the selective list given above. Also, there are hundreds of other diffs provided on the evidence page which you can view here. The conditions for returning were: After six months, he may appeal his ban to the Arbitration Committee, provided he is able to demonstrate to the Arbitration Committee that his history of disruptive conduct will not continue. It would appear that WBB was not able to convince either the new or the old Committee that his history of disruptive conduct would not continue and I'm wondering why this editor amongst the many other ArbCom sanctioned editors (also with high edit counts) deserves a public campaign to overthrow the judgements of the Committee, whom we elected to make just these kind of tough decisions.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:22, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

The issues around arbcom generally has been raised here but that will be another discussion. While a board of directors picks a CEO, if they lose faith in the later they will occasionally overturn he or her decisions. When arbcom is elected they are not given a cart blanch to do whatever they like. The community hold ultimate authority and it might be a useful idea to put in place some oversight for this community. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:24, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Without wishing to pass comment on the merits of this particular case, I do think it would be sensible if ArbCom were to give some specific reason as to why a particular editor's appeal has been turned down. If the aim is to "rehabilitate" a blocked editor, providing them with some guidance on what they need to do to get unblocked would be worth doing. I don't think the door should be closed on an editor returning except in the most extreme and egregious cases. Prioryman (talk) 00:49, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

How is it possible to demonstrate to the Arbitration Committee that his history of disruptive conduct will not continue? It seems unreasonable to require proof of future behaviour without allowing future activity. • • • Peter (Southwood) : 05:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

The usual yardstick is for the editor to demonstrate some insight into the original problem. Despite the "TimidGuy decision" being the "final binding decision" specified both in the ArbCom policy and Terms of Use, WBB wants the case substantially reheard on the same grounds that were extensively aired during the original case. Despite the topic ban, he wants to return to NRM topic. Despite the case, he seemingly has every intention of returning to COI allegations should the situation re-arise. None of this bodes well for the future.  Roger Davies 14:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

• As a former Arbitrator with complete access to all of the previous discussions and none of the current ones, I have to say that in light of the 2013 ArbCom's penchant for pardoning folks, the turnover in arbitrators between 2012-2013, and the rather low bar set for Will Beback's return, it appears almost certain to me that the only reason Will Beback has not returned to editing is because he refused to admit the abusive nature of his past administrator conduct and agree to not engage in similar conduct in the future. I can comment a limited amount more if desired, but I think it's pretty clear that ArbCom has it right.

What concerns me more is the penchant for like-minded POV warriors to attack ArbCom (either past or current iterations), rather than admit that Will Beback deserved sanctions for his off-wiki behavior. Suspicion of COI, even if founded, is never justification for the behavior Will Beback engaged in--Misplaced Pages:COI#Avoid outing makes that clear. Jclemens (talk) 00:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

We are not a representative democracy so the comment to "elect different people to Arbcom" misses the point. Arbcom has not even been able to keep sock puppets from within its numbers and per the Signpost it looks like the group is having ongoing serious issues. So yes we need oversight for arbcom decisions and that is what I am attempting to bring about here.

Also the decision was made in secret. How are we supposted to "know" who to "vote" for when we cannot determine their position? Jclemens as one of the drafter of the case in question how do you consider this an indef bannable comment? . Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:07, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

The decision was presumably communicated to WBB at some point. If you want to ask an arbitrator about his or her position... then ask him or her. As far as any particular comment... why do you ask? Need each comment referenced in evidence of a case that resolves in a ban be individually grounds for such a ban? Of course not. So please explain to me the point of your question. The fact that ArbCom has issues is far from news to me, by the way. Jclemens (talk) 02:03, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

You placed "sanctions for his off-wiki behavior". Well that's an interesting development. IRWolfie- (talk)

Can you comment on the fact that Will Beback never outed anyone on Misplaced Pages? That the only "outing" was off Misplaced Pages and in fact the community does not consider off wiki private email communications outing? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:39, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

When a user is banned for lese majesty they should be unbanned, and the persons that banned them should be encouraged to learn how Misplaced Pages works. Rich Farmbrough, 03:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC).

You know, that's the one thing I really regret about the case--While all the then-arbitrators were aware of all the facts of the matter, in my vote to ban, I embellished the truth in order to try and downplay the political impact of ArbCom smacking Jimbo down in public, and it got picked up in the Signpost. (Not the last time I said something that ended up having farther reaching consequences than I intended, either. Sigh.) While everything I said about Will Beback's one-sided portrayal of evidence in his communications to Jimbo was entirely true, my own portrayal of those facts in my public statement was calculated to avoid unnecessarily casting Jimbo in a bad light. The fact is that Jimbo knew, or should have known, that no reasonable interpretation of the COI guideline as it stood then (vs. as he might have wished it to be) supported the ban--that's presumably why Will Beback had forum-shopped all the way to the top when no other venue would give him the desired result. I voted to ban Will Beback because I viewed his behavior as both Machiavellian and unrepentant, and don't regret doing that in the least. So the real reason Will Beback was banned was never making Jimbo look bad, it was for his actual behavior, and the former impression was an attempt at calculated damage control on my part. Jclemens (talk) 06:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Arbcom exists to resolve problems that the community has demonstrated that it can't; if the community can solidly say "no return", we can mark WB as being community banned, or if the community can solidly say "yes, return", we can unblock WB. Nyttend (talk) 01:41, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, we can't unblock him. We can only indicate to Arbcom members, that the community wants it to be so. IRWolfie- (talk) 02:47, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: I believe the page you were looking for, Jmh649 is Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment.Risker (talk) 01:55, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

No I am wanting a community discussion not an arbcom discussion. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:40, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Jmh649, you weren't a party to this specific case, but you were to the one that led to this one. I think there's valid reason to question your neutrality on this issue. For the record, I did not vote on Will Beback's unban request, and I opposed banning him in the original case. Risker (talk) 03:49, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I have openly stated that I was and am involved. I am asking the community to look at the issue themselves. They are more than welcome to determine the neutrality of all those involved including my own. The difficulty is that much was decided in secrecy and of course the prior relationships between the arbcom members who voted on this issue and Will Beback are unclear. He after making more than 100,000 edits would have had many interactions with all who got to officially weight in on the case. He also had some interactions which were less than positive with an arbcom member who was supported by the arbcom generally for a prolonged period of time who turned out to be a sockpuppet. Not a situation which instills confidence in this organization ability to make independent decisions regarding long term editors who deal with controversial subject matter. So to be clear yes I am insinuating that their are issues with arbcom but these will likely require a different discussion. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:14, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

The only arbitrator who "turned out to be a sockpuppet" left the committee in May 2009, which is 2.5 years before the case that resulted in Will Beback's ban. Please get your facts straight before you start throwing around allegations. Risker (talk) 06:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

• I looked at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Cirt] and saw where Will Beback reposted a comment by Off2riorob, dated 11:18, 9 December 2008, that gave personal details about another editor. The original comment by Off2riorob can still be seen at Talk:Bhagwan_Shree_Rajneesh/Archive_10#the_world_tour. A post about those same personal details was among Arbcom's public evidence against Will Beback for writing about other editors' affiliations. Was it also intended to be evidence of outing? The outing charge mentions "public material" but doesn't give specific examples. Reposting a comment that is visible to the world should not count as outing IMO.

In his posts on Sue Gardner's talk page, he is complaining that the policy on outing is too strict. It doesn't look to me as though he was posting there in order to harass someone—unless trying unsuccessfully to reach Sue Gardner is to be construed as harassing her—but rather because he wanted the policy changed. Are administrators allowed to suggest changes to policies? Is it possible for anyone to follow a policy without entirely agreeing with it?

I do see the combative tone in some of his posts. It seems most of the friction came from Will Beback's attempts at dealing with what he sees as POV edits by certain editors who he perceives to have a COI on one topic. Perhaps a demand that he avoid that topic and those editors would be in order. —rybec 02:56, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

He was topic banned from new religious movements and desysop'ed, as well as being banned. Editors would be well served by reading the entire case, rather than just a one-sided summary of it. Jclemens (talk) 02:59, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Agree going over the evidence presented by arbcom for the statements they make is interesting. Each person weighting in should definitely decide for themselves if the evidence provided is sufficient for the charges made.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:12, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what one sided summary you are referring to. The only summary I am aware of is the arbcom one. The evidence presented in the evidence page shows that TimidGuy was pushing a POV. You (plural) decided to desyop, topic ban, and ban the other guy on rather weak grounds with regards to what occured on-wiki. For Timid you just gave advice to adhere to the guidelines. IRWolfie- (talk) 03:39, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, I believe they're talking about this one-sided summary. Dreadstar ☥ 07:52, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

• I am not going to express an opinion one way or the other regarding Will Beback's ban (I have had prior dealings with him which would probably require me to recuse myself if I were ever in a position to pass formal judgment on him). However, I have two general thoughts which I think are relevant here:

1. I do think it's reasonable and appropriate for members of the community to express themselves on this question. Quoting something I said last December in my unsuccessful ArbCom candidacy: "I am still not totally comfortable with the idea that rulings should be based more on popular opinion than on principle, but if a proposed sanction is widely and vocally opposed, that may sometimes be a reasonable indication that the sanction may not have been well thought out and should perhaps be reconsidered."
2. I am troubled by the idea that if the community doesn't like WB's ban, the solution is for us to elect a different set of arbs who will agree to unban him. During the last ArbCom election, much of the discussion focussed on whether candidates agreed with one specific ArbCom ruling (and some "voter's guide" authors evidently based their recommendations primarily on this one issue). While I accept that members of the community have a right to support or oppose ArbCom candidates based on pretty much whatever criteria they prefer to use, this particular thing seemed to me at the time to be overly divisive and confrontational, and I don't think it's a good idea to encourage it in future ArbCom elections. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 06:01, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) The level of punishment far exceeds the crime. Is it necessary for Will to lay prone before the ArbCom committee and ask their forgiveness? This is not some hack that shows up and causes problems everywhere he goes. Will is, was and will be a quality editor that does quality work. He was not and, when he is allowed to return, will not be combative. This lack of understanding and compassion by an ArbCom in the midst of their own turmoil is cancerous. It is a slowly destructive evil that will spread thru the Body Misplaced Pages. It was one thing to ban him using questionable reasoning but to not allow his return is unconscionable. There has to be more here than Will's unwillingness to "toe the line". I edited many political talk pages at the same time as Will and always found him to be one of the best editors there was. Thoughtful, forceful, strident at times but never disrespectful. His detractors had a hard time with the quality of his problem solving capacity. He was able to cut thru the crap and get to the point. Many political articles have whatever quality they have because Will was there to safeguard the Encyclopedia. I really don't care why Will was banned. I do care why he is not allowed to return. Will deserves a public campaign to reinstate him because the editing environment needs him. It needs his insight and his leadership. And I would still like to know what the vote count was to maintain the ban? 8 to 4? 5 to 4 w/ 3 abstaining? Does anyone know?```Buster Seven Talk 06:30, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
• @Jclemens - are you sure there was a finding of Administrator misconduct? I can't find anything at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy ban appeal. We need to be very careful that we present the facts correctly about Will's ban. I think we need a strong ArbCom with the ability to conduct some of its discussions in confidence, but I also agree with Buster7 on why we need Will reinstated as an editor. Dougweller (talk) 07:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
• Comment- I have no history with Will Beback and no opinion about whether he should welcomed back or not. However, I disagree with the rationale given by some of the opposers, namely that the community is not allowed to reach a consensus that overrules ArbCom. Of course we can. Reyk <sub>YO!</sub> 07:50, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
• Comment In reply to some of the opposes, telling arbitrators that they or their predecessors made a mistake is neither a slippery slope nor an end run. It is discussing an issue. Cardamon (talk) 08:38, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - Out of curiosity, is there precedent for this? Seeing how admins get de-admined for overturning Arbcom blocks, I'm not seeing how...if this RfC were successful...an unblock would actually come about. An admin stepping up to do the deed would still technically be at risk for de-adminning. Tarc (talk) 12:49, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

If there is community support I bet it is likely that some admin will do the unblock. I have one specific individual in mind who I bet would help out. Probably first though I would ask the blocking admin. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:54, 24 March 2013 (UTC)