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Revision as of 08:51, 27 March 2013 editApprenticeFan (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers98,127 edits →Requested move← Previous edit Revision as of 15:42, 27 March 2013 edit undoFlyer22 Frozen (talk | contribs)365,630 edits →Requested move: Support, just like I did in 2007.Next edit →
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*'''Support''' - According to Google stats, there are 13.1 million hits on the namesake title, while only 13.6 million for the 1992 film release. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:51, 27 March 2013 (UTC) *'''Support''' - According to Google stats, there are 13.1 million hits on the namesake title, while only 13.6 million for the 1992 film release. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:51, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
*'''Support''', for the same and what has been stated by others above who support the move. ] (]) 15:42, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

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Feminism in Inspirations and metaphors section

Hello! This sentence stands out to me in this section for some reason. It doesn't feel like an accurate description of feminism or a metaphor for feminism. Any ideas?

"The feminist issue comes out especially when facing misogynist characters; the most misogynistic characters, Warren and Caleb, both die in gruesome ways (the first tortured and skinned alive by Willow, the second eviscerated and cut in two by Buffy)."

I'll certainly try to come up with something here. I feel like there's a better way to express this idea. Mabe a citable source on feminism in Buffy might be a place to start? ScreenRighter (talk) 03:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Good news! I found some excellent resources for this topic, from here. I think this quote from Cathleen Kaveny (What Women Want: 'Buffy,' the Pope, and the New Feminists, Commonweal November 7, 2003, pg.18-24) addresses the issue of feminism without invoking murder or misogyny:

The series is about vocation; it explores what it means for Buffy to be a vampire slayer, not merely to slay vampires for fun or profit. It shows her struggling to live up to the demands of the role, sacrificing the usual teenage pleasures to meet her unusual responsibilities. It also shows her growth in competence, wisdom, and confidence, and her eventual realization that the sacrifices are worth it. In exploring the meaning of vocation, the show suggests ways of overcoming several dichotomies that hamper a creative and humane response to the contemporary situation of women.

I'm thinking maybe a small intro and this quote in there would much better serve to illustrate feminism as expressed by BtVS. Any one have other thoughts? ScreenRighter (talk) 01:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I settled on this:

Buffy struggles throughout the series with her calling as Slayer and the loss of freedom this entails, frequently sacrificing teenage experiences for her Slayer duties. Her difficulties and eventual empowering realizations are reflections of several dichotomies faced by modern women and echo Feminist issues within society.

If anyone has a problem with it, please let's discuss it. :) ScreenRighter (talk) 03:24, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Article introduction

I think the article introduction does not describes the TV-show. It just states some facts about the period when it was created and the author. I think an avareage reader would want to know immediately what the show was about. The show was not about some kind of "vampire slayer" that "surrounded himeself with friends". The show (IMO) is about the struggles of a young woman while growing up. Vampires are just a metaphore. Maybe it should be said at the top that the show uses vampires as a parody and a metaphore to the adult world? Anyone agrees with me? Sorry for my English.

I would like to propose this introductory text: "Buffy the Vampire Slayer is an American television action drama series that depicts life struggles of a young female and her family and friends by using vampires and monsteras as an alegory to the real world problems."

Than I would continue with the existing text: "...The series aired from March 10".

Any suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supersmola (talk • contribs) 21:49, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

You are trying to change things from a simple statement of fact, into an unsourced theory about the show as a metaphor. Sorry, can't support that. It was not advertised and marketed as a metaphor, it was advertised and marketed as a show about a vampire slayer who surrounded herself with friends. Any reliably sourced analyses of the show as more than that, belong in the body of the article; and speculation and original research have no place in the article at all. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
The IP user is correct, that the show uses the vampires and/or monsters as metaphors for life. This has been stated by creator Joss Whedon. There's a subsection in the article about it. Even though it's correct, it's probably best to leave as is for simplicity, as it is the lead. Again, there is a subsection about the metaphors, so the content is there. Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:46, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm apt to agree with Drovethryghosts and the above IP user. What kept viewers coming back to Buffy was not the weekly vampire stacking or demon beheading, but the sympathizing with Buffy on a more personal level: "...the opportunity to watch more common human fights: the fight to maintain relationships, the fight to find one's place in the world, the fight against self-doubt." ("The Psychology of Joss Whedon: an Unauthorized Exploration of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly" Joy Davidson) Wouldn't it be useful for first-timers to Buffy to be introduced to some of this in the introduction?
Thelibrarian24 (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
It's in the article. Putting it into the lede as is proposed would be retconning what was pitched to the network, and marketed to the mundane world, as "a show about a vampire slayer who surrounded herself with friends". We can't re-write history to fit our later insights into the show and Joss' motivation(s). --Orange Mike | Talk 19:50, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Science Fiction

I would like to add "science fiction" to the genre description of the show. I already did previously, but it was deleted. I assume this was because I am terribly new at this and didn't explain myself.. I'm Sorry. I'll be a better person/editor/textmonkey from now on. As such I took the time to explain myself.

While the show (Buffy TVS) primarily deals with the occult and supernatural the show also features several episodes in every single season that deal with "sci-fi" concepts. In season 1 there are the episodes featuring a naturally occurring giant bug-person, the transference of consciousness into a digital form, a very advanced robot avatar, a girl who goes invisible because of "quantum mechanics" rather than magic and the idea of cyber-terrorism. So while the show perhaps primarily revolves around fantasy concepts, simply ignoring the science-fiction in the show would be tantamount to removing "drama" from the genre description simply because the show contains a lot of humour. The concepts of fantasy and science-fiction are not necessarily opposing forces or mutually exclusive. And Buffy The Vampire Slayer certainly contains both. Season 4 with it's behaviour modifying microchips, stun-rifles, biotech experiments and cyborg big-bad could even be described as being more sci-fi than fantasy. A such I think it would be more accurate and perhaps helpful to the readers of this particular wiki-page if "Science Fiction" was added under the genre-description of course along with the other genres, who I do not wish to remove or modify.

As mentioned above I already did the edit but it was removed. I hope this will clear up why I made the edit and I imagine the person who deleted it previously will appreciate that I took the time to explain myself this time. I'm new to this whole process, sorry if I got ahead of myself. I hope this will clear up why I wish to make the edit. And I am of course sorry about any inconvenience I may have caused. Seriously ... sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.118.130 (talk) 01:59, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

None of these episodes/incidents was even remotely science-fictional in the way they were handled; they involved mere waving of hands and use of buzzwords. The show, however deeply beloved by some science fiction fans, was never regarded as science fiction, since its very premise and reason for being were fantasy/horror-based. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:53, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I have to agree with Orange Mike; science fiction has treated some of the events you've listed, but in very different ways than Buffy did. This is not to excuse the foolishness perpetuated and called science fiction on television ... I love Buffy, it's gothic, fantasy, horror, and teen angst, but not science fiction, not sci-fi, and not SF. htom (talk) 00:16, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I never meant to say that the show was primarily science fiction or even "hard sci-fi", but it would be inaccurate and a disservice to the viewers of the page not to classify it as sci-fi if we go by wikipedia's own definition of the genre. While I respect your opinions (The both of you) I cannot follow your logic, are you implying that perhaps Frankenstein isn't science fiction as well? Once again the fantasy and horror elements do not make it less sci-fi in the same way that the jokes do not negate the drama. I hope I'm explaining myself well, sometimes I babble just a bit. And thanks for the feedback (Am I also replying correctly?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.118.130 (talk) 05:12, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Within the scientific knowledge of the time, Frankenstein the novel was certainly science fiction; that does not make Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein a science fiction film. (And yes, you've got the right idea on replying; but you should indent by using one semicolon more than what you're replying to; and you should sign your posts. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Frankenstein even in it's own period was not "hard sci-fi" in the slightest. Therefore by your definition it is apparently not science fiction at all. And I think it's wrong of us to use our personal interpretation of what constitutes science fiction and not the definition found in wikipedia itself (Which includes soft sci-fi). I appreciate your high-standard of the required science in sci-fi. But within science fiction there exist a spectrum that stretches all the way from the childlike wackyness of Doctor Who and the hand-wavy pulp of Edgar Rice Burroughs, to the hard sci-fi of Arthur C. Clark and Vernor Vinge. The episodes "Some Assembly Required", "Ted" and "I Was Made To Love You" are hardly equivalent to "Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein" and honestly the latter episode is more plausibly scientifically speaking than the actual Frankenstein ever was. Frankly I feel as though we are stuck now because you have a personal interpretation of sci-fi which you will adhere to no matter what... So far that you will pretend Frankenstein falls within it's parameters because you know it would be ridiculous not to call Frankenstein science fiction. I hope I don't come off as confrontational or overly aggressive, but I just don't think you could look at a TV show with several episodes each and every season featuring the existence of several highly advanced artificial intelligences (created solely by scientific means), perfectly human-like androids (constructed without magic), man made time-distortion technology, extra-terrestrial life and completely scientific reanimation and NOT call it sci-fi. I'm not sure we are being objective here. Is it that you think the existence of magic in the show excludes it's possibility of being science fiction? Because if that is the case I will have to reiterate a similar point; comedy does not preclude horror and Buffy is already listed as both. As another example; the occult, religious or fantasy element in a show like the X-Files does not mean the speculative sci-fi in the show suddenly stops being exactly that.. scientific fiction. Buffy the Vampire Slayer is an American TV Show which includes numerous episodes centred solely around scientific speculation.
The show is a fiction that often deals with the scientific, speculatively or as metaphor.
This very simply and plainly (by definition) makes it science fiction...alongside it being horror, comedy and supernatural-fantasy.
And it would be incorrect not to state that in the genre description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.118.130 (talk) 18:21, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
"Supernatural drama" is a sub-genre of "science fiction", making inclusion of the latter superfluous and redundant. Nymf talk to me 18:36, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages defines supernatural drama as a sub-genre of fantasy and as unrelated to science fiction.
"This genre deals with ghosts and other paranormal topics".
"They (Supernatural dramas) may be combined with OTHER genres, including comedy, action, SCIENCE FICTION,
It is therefore hardly redundant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.118.130 (talk) 19:00, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
At the time of its publication, Frankenstein was (as far as a layperson like Shelley could tell) perfectly legitimate speculative science fiction. X-Files, like most of what comes out of Hollywood, made no more than token pretense of scientific plausibility or accuracy; so that's an appallingly unconvincing example to use. Buffy is a fantasy/horror series, and is not science fiction in the way that a Babylon 5 or Firefly is; the use of superficially science-fictional tropes like robots and time travel does not change that. (And I won't even address your persistence in the use of the pejorative "sci-fi" while attempting to make a case about taking something seriously as science fiction.) --Orange Mike | Talk 19:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

How about using the term science-fantasy? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/Science_fantasy ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.118.130 (talk) 10:24, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The use of the term science fantasy is pretty much exclusive to literature; it is not applied, as far as I can tell, to visual media, comics, etc. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Why do you want to hang one of these categories onto the article? Maybe if we knew that we'd be more helpful. There are a -lot- of categories, but these two don't seem to me to fit well. htom (talk) 21:17, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
I want to "hang" the sci-fi label on it, because without it a good 1/5 of the show's episodes are unaccounted for. Soviet fish-man gene-therapy experimentation doesn't exactly rhyme with fantasy. This is wikipedia, this is the kind of information one would want on a TV show. Can we stop pigeon-holing and just add sci-fi when it's applicable to so many damn episodes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.118.130 (talk) 20:12, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

I've missed some comments/questions I'd like to address. If I can quote Orangemike.. >>X-Files, like most of what comes out of Hollywood, made no more than token pretense of scientific plausibility or accuracy; so that's an appallingly unconvincing example to use. That's why I used it, because it's still called sci-fi despite it's "appalling implausibility". >>Frankenstein was (as far as a layperson like Shelley could tell) perfectly legitimate speculative science fiction You forgot to add "Despite it's appalling implausibility." >>And I won't even address your persistence in the use of the pejorative "sci-fi" while attempting to make a case about taking something seriously as science fiction Since around 1980 sci-fi has become less of a pejorative and more of a just a abbreviation. I'll call it SF if it makes you feel better. Having said that, bad sci-fi is still science fiction. Quality does not enter into genre-labelling.We shouldn't mistake the vessel for it's content whether we are talking medium, genre or otherwise. Misplaced Pages doesn't distinguish it just redirects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.24.118.130 (talk) 20:32, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Appropriate quote?

Hi. I'd like to add this quote by Joss Whedon into the metaphors and feminism section. Any objections/comments? “Interviewer: So why do you write these strong female characters? Joss Whedon: Because you’re still asking me that question.” Cosainsé (talk) 02:50, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The request to rename this article to Buffy the Vampire Slayer has been carried out.
If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

– While there are a few other Buffy the Vampire Slayer titles, the television series remains the most popular and the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term. It is much more likely that someone searching for Buffy the Vampire Slayer is looking for the TV series and the series certainly has long-term significance.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 22:34, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

  • Support: Totally agree. 100% the primary topic. Unreal7 (talk) 22:52, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose I think the media franchise is the primary topic for "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", the media franchise article is located within the fictional universe article Buffyverse. So perhaps a disambiguation page is best, if not, then it should redirect to Buffyverse. Or someone could construct a separate franchise article separate from the fictional universe article. Same as how Star Wars and Star Trek are about the media franchises, not Episode IV or TOS respectively. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 01:22, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
    Not a good comparison. At least at the moment, there haven't been any Buffy reboots for another generation to know more than an older one. People know one Buffy - and that's the one that aired from 1997 to 2003. It's as simple as that.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 22:20, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose (TV series) (film) (comic) (novels) (musical) (Buffyverse)... Point to a disambiguation page. htom (talk) 03:12, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. The franchise stems from the TV series, which is also the main outlet. The statistics also shows that the TV series is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: 181057 views last month, versus 22222 views last month. People are 8 times more likely to be looking for the TV series than the DAB page. Nymf talk to me 09:34, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Although I agree with your support I do need to point out that the franchise stems from the film. Zarcadia (talk) 22:18, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Although you are correct the continuity should not be a factor in deciding the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Zarcadia (talk) 22:35, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV series) has been viewed 155283 times in 201303. This article ranked 1393 in traffic on en.wikipedia.org.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer (film) has been viewed 18843 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer (BFI TV Classics) has been viewed 170 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer Magazine incorporating Angel Magazine has been viewed 269 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Eight has been viewed 14694 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season Nine has been viewed 11497 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Album has been viewed 1542 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Score has been viewed 403 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Radio Sunnydale – Music from the TV Series has been viewed 504 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer (2000 video game) has been viewed 0 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer (2002 video game) has been viewed 0 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Wrath of the Darkhul King has been viewed 430 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Chaos Bleeds has been viewed 2153 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Quest for Oz has been viewed 355 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Sacrifice has been viewed 604 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer Collectible Card Game has been viewed 329 times in 201303.

...and they overwhelmingly support Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV series) as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Zarcadia (talk) 22:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for going through the tiresome page views stats. I honestly didn't think they were needed, I thought that it was pretty clear. Even if a franchise article was created (is anybody here even willing to do it, or are they just flying things around?), its clear that the TV series would still remain the primary topic.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 22:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
n.b. The video games show 0 views because I just renamed them earlier today, pursuant to WP:NCVG. They were formerly under the names Buffy the Vampire Slayer (handheld game) and Buffy the Vampire Slayer (video game). --BDD (talk) 22:38, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Buffy the Vampire Slayer (handheld game) has been viewed 292 times in 201303.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer (video game) has been viewed 1107 times in 201303.

Okay, but they were never going to really affect the outcome. Zarcadia (talk) 23:21, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

  • Support - It's a no brainer. The movie was horrible anyway and is disliked by critics and fans of the TV series alike. Ok, they may have been weasel words but you get the idea. AnimatedZebra (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
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