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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the BP article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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	BP was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 7, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed

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BP is under review by the Environmental Record Task Force, a collaborative project committed to accurately and consistently representing the environmental impact of policymakers and organizations throughout the encyclopedia. The task force is part of the WikiProject Environment.

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Violet Blue (March 20, 2013). "BP caught rewriting environmental record on Misplaced Pages". CNet. "Misplaced Pages:BP-Mitarbeiter schreibt am BP-Eintrag mit". Der Spiegel Online. March 21, 2013. Natasha Lennard (March 21, 2013). "BP edited its own environmental record on Misplaced Pages". Salon.com. "Misplaced Pages editors accuse BP of rewriting page about itself, CNET reports". Nola.com/New Orleans Times-Picayune. March 21, 2013. Brian Merchant (March 21, 2013). "For Over a Year, BP Has Worked Hard to Clean Up Its Misplaced Pages Pages". Vice. Violet Blue (March 27, 2013). "Big Oil's Misplaced Pages cleanup: A brand management experiment out of control". ZDNet.

Text and/or other creative content from Deepwater Horizon oil spill was copied or moved into BP with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

The following Misplaced Pages contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. Arturo at BP (talk · contribs) / BP BP This user has declared a connection. (Close association declared on user page, article talk page, and COI noticeboard)

Video

An editor has reverted my addition of 2 external videos twice and told me to come to the talk page - though he has not mentioned anything here. I think this is the second set of edits I've made on the page and the second time something similar has happened. The first time I corrected an incorrect "fact" and the edit eventually stayed in the article.

I have no question that the videos will stay as well. The Frontline video, which is now back in the Environmental record section, starts out with about 20 minutes on BP's environmental record and environmental strategy, and then goes on to show how the Deepwater Horizon oil spill fits in this pattern. The Stanford video takes more of an engineering approach and examines deep water drilling in the Gulf with the Deepwater spill as the centerpiece. Both clearly related to BP's environmental record, both made by responsible organizations. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:32, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand that the videos build up to the topic of the Deepwater Horizon disaster by describing the background of BP engineering and the unsafe practices. Would you characterize the videos as being primarily about the Deepwater Horizon disaster, or would they be more about BP as a corporation? Binksternet (talk) 05:24, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

The two videos have very different starting points, but I'm tempted to say right between your two choices - the firm's environmental record. The Frontline video starts with the environmental record and the firm's strategy, and the Deepwater spill appears to emerge inevitably. On the Stanford video, I haven't gotten through all 80 minutes yet (it's tough going), but I'd say the major single point is the near impossibility of conducting fully safe drilling in the Gulf - a big part of BP's strategy. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 05:38, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Would maintain a neutral position by also having a BP video about their safety procedures? Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:26, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

This seems just a tad frivolous to me. It reminds me of this article. Or perhaps this one. But maybe I'm misinterpreting; I would welcome alternative explanations -- # _ 09:57, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the videos are relevant, this comment was purely in response to Martin Hogbin's comment. -- # _ 23:40, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

The videos are highly relevant and should be included. The article currently is unbalanced in that it provides insufficient material on that catastrophe. Coretheapple (talk) 13:21, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

That's because it has its own article. Going into too much detail here would be a weight issue. The Frontline video seems fine, but the second video seems far too out of place and focused on Deepwater to be proper here. It would probably work better in the Deepwater article itself. Silverseren 20:51, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Then why not restore at least the Frontline video? Coretheapple (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I have a number of issues with the addition of the box as proposed: 1. The Stanford video is not about BP per se but Deepwater and Gulf of Mexico drilling in general 2. Why place the video links in a melodramatic box with a picture of the Deepwater explosion above (and a picture which is duplicated elsewhere in the article? 3. Why place the video link at the top of the Environmental record section rather than alongside the text for Deepwater? I would agree with a link to the PBS video being included alongside the section on Deepwater. The box, the picture, the Stanford video and the box location are all out of place though.Rangoon11 (talk) 23:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

I didn't even look at how it was being placed in the article. Did someone seriously do that? Silverseren 04:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Should video(s) like all other external links go to the 'External links' section rather than into the body text? Beagel (talk) 05:17, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

That means in case if there is consensus for inclusion. Beagel (talk) 05:20, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Which there is not. Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Links should not go in the body of the article.--Amadscientist (talk) 13:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted the addition of the video. There is no consensus as yet. Do editors want to include or exclude the use of the video in the body of the article in any way? I support exclude at this time.--Amadscientist (talk) 13:19, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've put the video back with a different photo

• The use of the external media template is explicitly covered in WP:EL and should be placed in the same way any other media is placed, i.e. in the relevant section - here it's about the environmental record, so it goes there.
• The photo was not a duplicate of the other one on the oil spill, but in any case I've replaced it with a different one.Have you noticed that there are 3 photos of office buildings (plus one inside an office building), 3 photos of service stations, and now 2 of the oil spill. This spill cost the company 1/3 of its value so far so there shouldn't be any question of weight - the spill is much more important than office buildings. In general some folks have serious problems with "weight" if they think the company's environmental record deserves less space.
• I think the Stanford video gives a very serious look at the causes of the spill - and much of BP's environmental record- and gives some balance to Frontline. I've looked for BP videos on the subject, but they strike me as being clearly inferior. Somebody would likely accuse me of making them look bad by the direct comparison, but if anybody has another video that they think belongs, please include it.
• There's no consensus here for removing the videos, and no credible reason given for removing them. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 13:29, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

All content is a matter of consensus. I support the removal of the video as not having a consensus to include.--Amadscientist (talk) 13:40, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

As has been stated above by more than one editor, links do not go in the body of the article. There is not consensus to ignore this policy or guideline as yet.--Amadscientist (talk) 13:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Per WPEL "Misplaced Pages articles may include links to web pages outside Misplaced Pages (external links), but they should not normally be used in the body of an article. ".--Amadscientist (talk) 13:58, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how one defines consensus in a situation like this. The pros and cons seem evenly split. However, I notice that there is some sentiment among one of the "cons" to including one video. Coretheapple (talk) 14:13, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

The same way we define all consensus: what everyone can live with. If I was the only holdout on this. I would simply concede a rough consensus and live with it. We are no where near that yet.--Amadscientist (talk) 14:16, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

• Ignoring all other aspects of this, because I haven't yet had the time to go through it, {{External media}} is listed as a specific exemption to the requirement that external links cannot be in the body of the article . The question that must be asked is whether or not inclusion meets the criteria outlined at Template:External media#When to use. Ryan Vesey 14:36, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

This is excellent input. However, we must not forget that regardless of the footnote and template, it is still content which requires a consensus. But the actual question I think that is indeed important is, can this be uploaded to Misplaced Pages as a video file. If this is true, I wonder how much objection there wold be to include it. That may be worth attempting.--Amadscientist (talk) 14:55, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I have just watched the Stanford video

I have just watched the 1 hour 20 minute video all the way through. It provides a technical view of how the DWH explosion occurred. I would recommend any one interested in that subject to watch it. On thing, however, is abundantly clear; the video is not about BP. It is about the DWH explosion. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:52, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I would recommend the addition of a link to the video in the appropriate place in the Deepwater Horizon explosion article but it is not about BP and has no place here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:58, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course it's about BP. The Deep Water Horizon explosion is a seminal event in the history of the company. It's a long and dull academic video, and I can't fathom why it is so controversial as an addition to the article. Coretheapple (talk) 17:37, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Have you watched it? It simply is not about BP. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:58, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Aside from the issue on how much it is about BP, you state yourself that it is a "long and dull academic video". What benefit do you claim readers get from including the video in the article? Ryan Vesey 18:01, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

If they're interested in how the explosion took place, that video tells the story ad nauseum. I think it's a useful video, as it explains how an accident took place which became the defining moment in the recent history of the company. Apart from being dull and academic, I don't see the objection. Sorry, I may be dim on this subject, but I'm not seeing it. Coretheapple (talk) 18:07, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

"long and dull" is in the eye of the beholder. I see no credible reason to prevent our reader from being made aware of and then, possibly, beholding the video. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:27, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

If they're interested in how the explosion took place, they probably will look this information at the Deepwater Horizon explosion article. At least, this is what an average reader is expected to do. Beagel (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I will put the link there. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:04, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

A reader with a greater technical background would no doubt find that video most edifying. I don't see the harm of adding it, really. Coretheapple (talk) 18:38, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

But is it not about BP. If you disagree, please tell me what this video tells us about BP. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:01, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the connection between the Deepwater Horizon disaster and BP is self-evident. Can you please explain to me how they are not related? Coretheapple (talk) 19:06, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course there is a connection, but the video is clearly not about BP, it is specifically about the DWH explosion. This article is about BP and the video tells us nothing about BP. We already have a link to the article on the explosion, where I have added a link to the video. We should not include all that article here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:17, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I hear you, but I think that there is enough of a connection that it would be useful to readers who want to get into the weeds of the explosion. It's not my cup of tea, but I think it is beneficial to have it out there for people to examine if they wish. Are you concerned about the accuracy of the presentation? Coretheapple (talk) 22:47, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

No I am not concerned about the accuracy of the presentation, that is why I added it in its proper place; the Deepwater Horizon explosion article. Anyone who wishes can look at it. In fact I think they should. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Martin, I think that article and placement is the best way to handle this. Thanks. What are other editor's thoughts on this?--Amadscientist (talk) 23:54, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I am fine with having the video focused on DWH in the DWH article. I disagree with Martin that it is not "about BP" -- of course it is about BP, in the sense that BP owned the well, hired the contractors, etc etc -- DWH is BP's doing. But it is piling on information in a section that is meant to be a stub, for the longer article on DWH. The video belongs there.Jytdog (talk) 02:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

frontline video

The conversation on the frontline video fell off. I just watched it. I disagree strongly with smallbone's characterization of it, as being about BP's environmental record. You gotta have some serious filters to describe it that way. Rather, it is about BP's safety record -- what caused this series of accidents? It explains what happened at BP after its meteoric rise through M&A. The documentary makes the point clearly that a) BP failed to create an operational organization that could run effectively the huge company it so quickly became (in the words of Tony Hayward at Stanford: "a company that was too top down, too directive, and not good at listening... we failed to recognize that we were an operating company, we had too many people that did not understand what it took to run operations" ); and that b) in order to keep its stock price high, it kept profits high by consistently underinvesting its capital in maintenance of the infrastructure it acquired and in the projects it was building. It shows the pattern. Hayward tried to fix it - he allocated $14B to infrastructure and established a safety group, but the stock market didn't like it and so the cost-cutting started again. (BBC voice over "BP has announced a bid to cut costs, increase revenues, and improve BP's lagging performance") The industrial accidents were avoidable and BP failed to avoid them because it lacked the management to see them coming, the safety policies that could have prevented them (hayward again: "this is about a fundamental lack of leadership and management in the field of safety") and it failed to invest its capital in equipment maintenance/repair/replacement . It shows very clearly the context in which this series of industrial accidents happened. Some of which had big environmental consequences, some of which did not (the explosion at the Texas refinery, the Thunder horse near capsize that caused Lord John his job) It belongs in the article. I think it fits best in the industrial accidents section. Jytdog (talk) 02:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Jytdog, my sound is not working and I haven't been able to watch the film, so your summary was just perfect for me!Gandydancer (talk) 02:42, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

:) Jytdog (talk) 04:11, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Just wanted to note that the main reporter in the Frontline video is investigative reporter Abrahm Lustgarten, who is named in Rangoon's draft for the Safety section above... as is lustgarten's book, "Run to Failure: BP and the Making of the Deepwater Horizon Disaster", published in 2012. Based on the description Rangoon provides, this video and that book probably have very similar content and make similar arguments. Jytdog (talk) 05:47, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

The Frontline video is an assassination, entirely unsuitable for inclusion or linking from an encyclopedia. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:59, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Although you or I might feel that the video is selective, simplistic and one sided, it does nonetheless focus on BP and represents a widely held view of BP's safety record, thanks to the selective, simplistic and grotesquely dumbed down mainstream media of the United States. It would be good if we could find another video to balance it. Rangoon11 (talk) 10:53, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Rangoon, as I noted, this is probably the same matter as the book you cited - since you cited it, can you please tell us how it differs from the video? Jytdog (talk) 14:10, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

We could potentially balance the Frontline video with a BP promotional video if we can find one but this is not how WP should work. WP requires us to present a neutral POV rather than two extremes. We should be looking for a quality independent reliable source that gives an authoritative assessment of BP's comparative safety record. Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:59, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Martin. I have done a lot of work on controversial articles -- I have been editing the Monsanto article and the suite of genetic engineering articles for a while now, to try to create NPOV, well sourced articles. In the course of that I had to get rid of a lot of POV and untrue content and replace it with NPOV, true content, and I replaced POV sources with reliable ones, and have tried to ensure that the community that thinks Monsanto and GM are evil doesn't add back the POV and badly sourced content that was in there before. It has been hard work to find really good sources and keep the article neutral and work with editors who are passionate about the issues. So I get where you are coming from, somewhat. But I think you are being too hardcore. Like Monsanto, BP has done bad stuff but they are not evil. If you look at the Monsanto article, the bad stuff is there, clear and bright, along with the good stuff - stated in a NPOV way and well sourced. You have to let the bad stuff be here too. The Frontline show (and I assume the book that goes with it but am waiting for Rangoon to weigh in) do tell a negative story. There is a negative story to be told - in my summary above I took some care to give some quotes from Tony Hayward who frankly acknowledged those problems and tried to tackle them. PBS in general is the most widely respected source of news across the political spectrum in the US (http://ivn.us/2013/02/07/independents-reflect-trust-in-television-news-media-trends/) (look at most trusted and least trusted and subtract the results... PBS ends up way better than anybody else). Frontline is a reliable source -- you cannot just dismiss this report as a hatchet job. I agree there is more to the story (there always is) and I have been looking for a reliable secondary source on BP's efforts to run their company well and safely and profitably. Jytdog (talk) 22:24, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Rangoon, the idea of creating "balance" by including a BP promotional video is not OK. We don't do "balance" at Misplaced Pages. We study reliable secondary sources and create NPOV content based on them, that describes the world as it is, the best that we can. A BP promotional video is not a reliable source and cannot be used to generate content. Jytdog (talk) 22:24, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Point taken on the difference between safety record and environmental record, but of course there is a great deal of overlap. I've looked a great deal through other videos trying to explain BPs safety/environmental disasters and the frontline one is head-and-shoulders above the rest. Stanford was pretty good too in its own way. BP has 170 some videos, some with very tempting titles, but the ones I've looked at just don't make the grade: "promotional videos" is overstating their value. In any case, I've put the Frontline video in the accidents section (Texas City, witch is covered and just above the DWH section) - without Stanford this time. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:05, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Re the questions to me above - I don't recall proposing having a link to a BP video, although I can't see that it would be a bad thing depending on the quality of the video, and I haven't read the book being discussed all the way through, just parts of it. I don't necessarily agree with the premise of the book just because I used it as a source, and I have been quite clear that the draft I posted above was not being proposed for direct copying into the article but was simply to get the ball rolling on a safety record overview. Rangoon11 (talk) 12:12, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Rangoon, above you opened a new section called "Safety record" and proposed text. The last paragraph of that text states - in the text, not in the footnotes, the following: "Links were drawn between incidents such as Deepwater Horizon, Prudhoe Bay and Texas City, with BP's safety culture being widely criticised as being complacent and compared unfavourably with peer ExxonMobil. In "Run to Failure: BP and the Making of the Deepwater Horizon Disaster", published in 2012, investigative reporter Abrahm Lustgarten made a number of claims that BP's safety culure and performance was damaged during the period in which John Browne was Chief Executive due to a management approach which emphasised controlling costs over safety." As I wrote above, the main reporter in the Frontline video is that same guy - Abrahm Lustgarten - and based on your brief description it appears that the Frontline video is making the exact same points. Since you cited the book I assume you read it, so I asked you -- does it indeed make the same points? Is the book also "selective, simplistic and grotesquely dumbed down"? If so why did you so prominently feature it? I am just trying to understand where you are coming from. Jytdog (talk) 22:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Jytdog, thanks for your considered response. I have no connection to and no special love for BP but like you, I am trying to defend various articles against editors who see WP as a medium for promoting their gripes against organisations.

The suggestion of balancing the Frontline video with a BP one was mine and was not intended to be taken seriously. It was a response to Rangoon's comments, which I also suspect were not entirely serious.

I cannot see any way in which we can take an investigative journalism report as a reliable source on BP's comparative safety record within the oil industry, as Buster7 seems to think below. The producers are simply not in a position to access or process the necessary information and it clearly was not their intention to produce a balanced and neutral report on BP. It is a sensationalist news article intended to draw a large audience.

Of course, the report does tell us how some people and news media in the US see BP and I would object much less if it were presented that way.

The Stanford video starts by saying that the Deepwater Horizon project was a commercially complex project (it likened this aspect to the Apollo programs). At the moment, not unexpectedly, everybody is blaming everybody else. BP were the operators with ultimate control of the project and therefore the buck must stop with them but as yet there is no clear indication from the courts as to who was actually to blame for the accident. I find it odd though that there is none of the hysteria we see on this page on the Halliburton or Transocean pages. They are actually examples that this page might follow a bit more. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:57, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

The Frontline video is a concise clear presentation. It achieves reliability at every level. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:30, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

As I said, I have not been able to watch the video but wouldn't it be better placed with the Gulf explosion section rather than the Texas section? Though I'd guess that it covers BP's long history of cost-cutting leading to accidents in general and that is the reason that you placed it at the top? Gandydancer (talk) 09:15, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Gandydancer, if you want to know what actually happened in the DWH explosion, explained in detail by a professor from a prestigious US university then watch the Stanford report. Some may find it rather dull but that is because it sticks to the facts rather than trying to inflame passions. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:08, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Location

The external videobox together with the following image makes the section layout look ugly. Why the video is not put in the 'External links' section like other external links? Beagel (talk) 20:21, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Did it look less ugly with the other image? I don't understand... That said, I don't mind it going to external links. Jytdog (talk) 21:59, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

This is not about the image but the videobox template and an image put after each other makes the section look ugly. Maybe this is due to the resolution of my computer, don't knew. This was the same with the previous image. Beagel (talk) 15:04, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

New PR section

I just edited the new PR section, to make it more a whole PR story for BP since 2000; it would be interesting to extend it back before that but I have no more time. Interested in feedback. (talk) 01:33, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

As the version 02:27, 3 April 2013 (UCT) by Jytdog there seems to be some overlapping of this section and the 'Company name' subsection. I think it would be better if the issue of the name, logo and slogans are discussed in one place. However, I don't have any concrete proposals at the moment. Beagel (talk) 04:55, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Where would you like it? As far as I am concerned please feel free to consolidate.Jytdog (talk) 11:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

And thank you for removing the tag! I hope others agree. Jytdog (talk) 11:49, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I see that you have already consolidated this information. Maybe all PR section should be a subsection of the 'Corporate affairs' section? Beagel (talk) 14:42, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes I went ahead and did it this morning, sorry about that. I would be fine with making the whole section a subsection of corporate affairs, sure.Jytdog (talk) 14:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

No-no, this was not critics. This merger was fully in line with what I proposed, so thank you for doing this. Beagel (talk) 14:52, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Nageh went through and made some changes, comments, and tagging. First - it would be great if folks pitched in and worked together to improve the page, rather than just being critical. I went through and addressed the tagging, so that is done. Nageh deleted a bit of an "essay" that I included from a book by the former CEO of Shell. I wanted to kick this PR section off by stating the (rather obvious) point that oil companies have a tough job with PR in general, to set the stage for BP's "green" campaign and its success. I thought the essay was great, and it also made it very clear that the problem was not BP's alone -- a LOT of the comments in Talk above asked that content be contextualized in terms of the industry as a whole, and this bit from Shell did that well, I thought, and also made some interesting points about why. So there it is. If anybody else wants to restore the text that Nageh deleted that is fine by me -- shortening it is also fine by me. Leaving it deleted is fine by me - but I have provided my rationale for including it. Also, Nageh deleted (with un-necessary superlatives - it is unclear how a single sentence could be "massively" undue) the sentence conveying the fact that BP's sponsoring of the Olympics gave its image a bump, on the grounds that it is not notable. I included that b/c it was part of BP's efforts to raise its image following the blow it took, and it worked. If it stays deleted, I can live with that. But I thought it was useful information. Jytdog (talk) 11:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I realize it would be great if I actually added to the page, still it was meant as constructive criticism (and my time is limited). As concerns providing context, that is certainly desirable but not in the form of an essay. Furthermore, this page is on BP and not on general PR struggles of oil companies. As concerns your mention of BP's successful(?) sponsoring of the Olympics, that seems like cherry-picking. Surely, they have invested massively in all sorts of PR and some if it certainly was successful. If it is noteworthy to report on their PR success a more general statement seems desirable. Having said that, keep up your efforts in improving this page. Nageh (talk) 11:48, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply! I understand your reasoning - especially about the length - it was just such great writing and explained so well the concrete experience of consumers with oil companies.. but i too was uncomfortable with its length and did shorten it some after I took it from the source. About contextualization - since you took out the first sentence about oil companies including BP having a PR problem from the get-go, the contextualization is not needed, which is why I am fine with letting your deletion stand. But as I wrote above, I thought it was useful to state that to establish the baseline from which BP's PR efforts have to work. Let's see what the rest of the gang says. Wrt to the Olympics, if you look at the source I had provided you will see that perception of BP's brand improved following the sponsorship, and it improved more so than that of any other sponsoring company but Visa. That is why I used the word "successful". In the world of PR, that is remark-able. I wouldn't call it cherry-picking....Jytdog (talk) 12:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

More on that section...

• Why is it important to mention the advertising agency Ogilvy & Mather? I assume this is interesting to know for PR folks, but for the average reader who has come here to learn about BP?
• "BP was praised for its social media efforts by..." Well, I was more interested in whether BP was praised by journalists, organizations or PR experts – there is a qualitative difference. I don't think Chris Beam from Slate magazine deserves to be singled out in this context, so assuming that journalists had said so so I would suggest simply stating that "BP was praised for its social media efforts in the media." Since this is a somewhat bold statement two or three reliable references are needed to back up the claim.
• I guess there could also be said something about the company's PR in earlier years. At the same time, I am somewhat worried about the potential for overlap with the general History section. How can that be resolved?

Nageh (talk) 14:51, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

HJi Nageh - I pulled information from three places to make the current PR section. 1) Some was in "corporate matters" (that is where, for instance, the Ogilvy information came from that you deleted; it pre-existed my arrival here. I am fine with the deletion, btw; ) 2) some was in the "greenwashing" stuff which came from the Environmental record section, and 3) some came from the new matter that was added about the controversy over arturo. On the social media thing -- It is frustrating that you write here that "two or three reliable references are needed" - there are three! Did you not look at them, or do you not think they are useful? Anyway, when I came across these sources (and others), I was very surprised, because all I ever heard was that BP's PR following the spill completely sucked. When you dig in, the truth is often more complicated than what we hear, so I thought this content was worth adding. In all the cited sources, experts harshly criticize BP's early efforts and praise BP's later ones -- quite a turnaround. The Slate author himself praises BP, cites "communication experts" praising them, and names and quotes one, Larry Smith of the Institute for Crisis Management. The NPR article cites Steve Marino, a BP consultant who worked for Ogilvy & Mather, for BP. The last source is a social media blog, the author of which praises them. I am not a big fan of piling on sources but here are more:

• http://www.bruceclay.com/blog/2010/07/bp-crisis-communications-and-social-media/
• http://www.technewsdaily.com/442-bp-coast-guard-use-social-media-to-keep-public-up-to-date-about-spill.html
• says good things about use of twitter: http://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=poroi
• http://searchenginewatch.com/article/2050808/Online-Reputation-Management-Case-Studies-BP-Oil-Spill-Toyota-Recall-and-Goldman-Sachs-Fraud-Charges

There you go... Jytdog (talk) 22:51, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I guess I expected some source to specifically state that PR experts agree on the success of BP's social media strategy. Anyway, I agree that as it stands the references provided afterwards are sufficient. Sorry, I should have put more effort into this. Nageh (talk) 10:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for answering! Your concern was and is certainly valid, and I am glad you are comfortable with the language. Thanks again. 19:08, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

You also asked about how we could add content about BP's pre-2000 efforts to the PR section without overlapping the history section. I think the focus on PR would create new matter... there will probably be some new matter with respect to mentioning name changes but I think the PR section would pivot from the historical narrative to talk about how they pitched that. just to say this, i would like to get to this at some point but i doubt it will be anytime soon... it is not a high priority for me.  :) Jytdog (talk) 19:12, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Fourth level headings

Also I understand the rationale for breaking out the other countries section, I don't think that this is the good decision. As a result, the text is too fragmented and split info very small fourth level subsections. This is something which is discourage for GA and FA level articles, and I definitely believe that one day this article will achieve the FA status. I propose to merge these small subsections back into the single 'Other countries' subsection, and even more, also to merge the downstream subsection into single subsection. Beagel (talk) 14:39, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I like the ambition to shoot for FA/GA! For me, tough call what to do with this. I found the former text hard to slog through; it was laundry list-y, and I couldn't figure out how it was ordered as it jumped all over the planet and also jumped around in business unit. Maybe we can hold on this pending the split conversation below, and then figure out what to do with it? And each of the country topics could use expansion, as Rangoon has mentioned more than once. Jytdog (talk) 19:10, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, the latest edits dividing 'other countries' section again into small and fragmented forth level subsections do not seem good. Too small subsections, too fragmented. The previous division (one subsection for the UK, one subsection for the US, one subsection for the rest of the world — all about 1/3 of BP's operations) was more balanced and integrated. Yes, of course, we may expand all these small subsections but adding additional details will create undue weight. The current structure is more suitable for the BP operations by country article, so I have nothing against if that kind of article will be created. However, I think that in this article here, we should remove the forth level headings in this subsection and also merge some paragraphs, if necessary. Beagel (talk) 19:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I disagree, the headings aid structure and will encourage content development, and ultimately the creation of articles for subjects such as BP America, BP United Kingdom, BP Egypt, BP Australia and BP China. Rangoon11 (talk) 19:26, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

It is fine with me if you would like to create BP Egypt or BP China. Ss I said, the best way to do this is by creating BP operations by country and expanding country-based sections there. However, having one or two-sentence subsections as we have right now here does not aid the structure; vice versa, it fragments the article and therefore should be avoided. Certainly there may be additional details about operations worth to be added here but not so much that to expand these subsections to proper subsections. Not all details suits in this article due to undue weight. Beagel (talk) 21:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

The level of detail currently in this article about topics such as BP Angola, BP Australia, BP China, BP Egypt and BP Germany is grossly thin. I am against the creation of a BP operations by country article at this point because 1. I don't think the level of detail in this article about operations is excessive, 2. many of the national operations are notable for individual articles, and that is the most "natural" solution, and 3. we risk having three levels of articles addressing BP operations if we adopt that approach (BP operations being dealt with in this article (as they must be, since they are core part of the topic), in a BP operations article, and then in articles on national operations. In fact four levels as topics such as BP Air and BP Shipping are notable and suitable for articles too). Rangoon11 (talk) 12:07, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not insisting to create BP operations by country, I just proposed this as one possible way forward. As I also said, I have nothing against if country-focused articles are created (I have suggested some of them myself). Detailed description of BP's operations in some countries may be notable in that countries context; however, this does not mean that this should be notable in this article context. I think that a good overview of the BP's operations is already included. There may be need for adding some details somewhere, for sure, but it will be undue to start to create country-focused stubs here. If necessary, please go forward and create relevant stub articles.

The purpose of creating subsections is increasing readability. Unfortunately the current fourth level subsections does not increase readability but, vice versa, in addition to fragmenting the text, it even makers the information incorrect in some cases. The subsection called 'Africa' has four sentences in two paragraphs. It may be even enough for a subsection (if we talking about 'operations by continent' but in the 'operations by country' approach this is not enough. The subsection about Asia includes three sentences, including one sentence about operations in Norway (sic!). Not enough for a separate subsection. Subsection about Australia is only one sentence. Again, not enough. Subsection about Canada is five sentences, but it includes also information about Indonesia (sic!). Europe——two sentences. Near east—three sentences, including two sentences about Azerbaijan (sic!) which usually not classified as a near east country (at least not in modern times). Russia—one sentence. South America—two sentences about Brazil and one sentence about Trinidad and Tobago (sic!). All in all, it seems quite messy and non-encyclopaedic. Therefore I propose to restore the last stable version before making these subsections. Beagel (talk) 15:26, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Beagel. This is a hard call. As I mentioned, I originally set up the subsectioning because a) the content was jumbled and didn't tell the story clearly or coherently and b) because the content was so brief on each country, that it really was a laundry list - it was not a narrative text in any useful sense. So I think that the thing you are bringing up - that the text on each region is so short - is the crux of the problem. If we had more content on each region, it wouldn't matter so much how it was formatted. I favor leaving the subsections for now, to promote content creation. I also think it helps the reader find information - if what you want is info on egypt, for example, it is really easy to find that now, or if you don't care about south america, you can easily skip that. Once content on each region gets fleshed out more, we can revisit how to format it here, and how to split it off. I also think the way to lump the content for splitting will be more clear once there is more content. It doesn't make sense to me to work that out now, but you and Rangoon are of course free to keep working it over! Jytdog (talk) 19:36, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Split needed.. how to do it??

What do you all think? We really should cut this down to about a third of its current size... Jytdog (talk) 13:59, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Some initial thoughts on this. Overall, I think the article should mostly describe BP's contemporary business. I don't think there is room for much more than that. It would be preferable not to lose any of the content that people have worked on, so ideally we create subarticles and leave wikilinks or 'stub' sections behind; my philosophy on splits is that the "stub" section left behind should be a copy/paste of the lede from the subarticle, with citations added... and then that stub is fiercely defended from people who want to add to it or else you end up with bloat and overlapping content; new content is added instead to the subarticle - only if that article's lede changes, should the stub change...

• The first chunk of the history section could be dramatically shortened or even "stubbed", since there in a major article on that.
• Potentially/alternatively, the entire history section could be moved into a new article called "BP history" and we take that whole narrative out of here and start with the Operations section
• BP Operations by location could potentially be taken out completely and become its own article; BP in America could be a whole article off that one... and the main content of Industrial Accidents could go out of this article and into that one.
• I am tempted to suggest that Industrial Accidents and Environmental record could be split off into its own article, but I think that comes too close to being a POV fork and does not fly...

Initial thoughts, anyway... Jytdog (talk) 18:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

My initial response is supportive. Never having been involved in such a major undertaking to restructure an important article, I may be a bit naive. As long as the reader is provided with easy links and "see also's", etc. and as long as it moves the editors of this article to a more congenial and collaborative place, I'm all for it. Dale Carnegie's first Rule , "Don't criticize", comes to mind. ```Buster Seven Talk 12:37, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

If we are going to reorganise the article that I suggest that we take the opportunity to look at the articles on the other supermajor oil companies so that we can achieve a degree of consistency. I appreciate that there is no absolute requirement for consistency between articles on different companies in the same sector but any strong inconsistencies in the way that things are organised suggests that a NPOV is not being taken somewhere. I see no disadvantage in a consistent approach to articles on the supermajors. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Cutting down the article size to a third would be overshooting, but as content is being added some split definitely becomes necessary. Don't simply cut away entire sections into their own articles, instead, keeping some stub or summary text is always to be preferred for maintaining comprehensiveness. I agree that both the History and Operations by location sections are good candidates for shortening. Nageh (talk) 14:11, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. The article is at present not excessively long, and nor are the History or Operations sections within it. The article suffers from inbalance due to an excessive focus on industrial accidents in one country (the United States) over 1/10th of the company's history (the past decade). Yes both the history of BP and the operations of BP are notable topics for articles (although the latter is best dealt with by creating articles for operations in specific countries, such the United States, United Kingdom and Egypt, rather than creating an Operations of BP article) but the current content in this article is not so long that it currently requires cutting back.

And no the article is not just about BP in 2013 but BP as an overall topic, including its history. History sections are core content for company articles in WP. Rangoon11 (talk) 21:16, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Rangoon, thanks for weighing in! When I wrote that the article is about 3x longer than it should be, that is based on the criteria provided by the article size guideline: WP:LENGTH. Text from the guideline and data showing the article size are in the section above -- heck I will just copy it below with some bolding added for your reading ease. But what is your basis in policy/guideline for saying it is not too long? Jytdog (talk) 23:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

quote:Hi beagel. Misplaced Pages guidelines on length are here WP:LENGTH, and recommend a "page of about 30 kB to 50 kB of readable prose, which roughly corresponds to 6,000 to 10,000 words, takes between 30 and 40 minutes to read at average speed, which is right on the limit of the average concentration span of 40 to 50 minutes." I just the ran the script from here, and here is the output:

File size: 664 kB Prose size (including all HTML code): 114 kB References (including all HTML code): 29 kB Wiki text: 173 kB Prose size (text only): 60 kB (9843 words) "readable prose size" References (text only): 2012 B

Yikes! It appears that we need to do some splitting. And yes, the detail I just added should go into the Clair field article. Jytdog (talk) 13:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)unquote

You are getting your numbers wrong. The readable prose size (the viewable text in the main sections, as per WP:LENGTH) was 60 kB (9843 words), which was not so far off from 30 kB to 50 kB (6,000 to 10,000 words). Concerning cutting down the History section, in retrospective I agree that it should be left as is. Btw, Jytdog, could you respond to my other comments at Talk:BP#New_PR_section? Thanks. Nageh (talk) 08:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

You are right! Just ran the script again, and we are now down to this: Prose size (text only): 56 kB (9238 words) "readable prose size". My mistake, thank you for catching it. Jytdog (talk) 22:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Structure of supermajors

This is not exactly the right (although related) place, so please feel free to move it if you will find more proper place. I wanted to make this comment already some days ago but as a very intensive discussion went on, I decided to wait. However, as Martin already mentioned structure of supermajors, I start the discussion here. I have studied a most of supermajors articles and have come to conclusion that probably the best (but, of course, not perfect) structure has the BP article, probably due to intensive edits, discussions and even disputes which have been during the last year. Structure of all other supermajors seems worse. Week ago I reviewed Chevron Corporation and I have to say that BP is in better shape that Chevron. Therefore I think that we have to find the best structure here and after that to imply the same structure for all articles about successors of Seven Sisters (BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron Corporation, ExxonMobil), New Seven Sisters (China National Petroleum Corporation, Gazprom, National Iranian Oil Company, Petrobras, PDVSA, Petronas, Saudi Aramco), other supermajors (Total S.A., ConocoPhillips) and some other major oil companies (inter alia Anadarko, Eni, Statoil, Rosneft). Of course, the structure can't be always identical but alt least the main sections should be the same. Probably the best place to discuss it could be Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Energy or Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Companies with the notification at all relevant article's talk page and Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals). Any comments? Beagel (talk) 17:57, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Well...I think we might have a problem with the editors at those other articles responding with open arms to "The BP Editors" marching into town...ready, willing and able to change everything up. Not saying its not a great idea and it makes it easier for us to focus on OUR task ahead (TASK:To be the best collegiate congenial "create a great article" example we can be!). Just sayin...let us respect the work of those other editors and agree NOW that we will, if those type of changes Beagel and Jytdog are talking about happen,, be respectful and co-operative and understanding. With that in mid, I suggest we wait abit with going to those other projects. Lets get OUR ducks in a row, work together, and then we can "sell" what we have created. ```Buster Seven Talk 20:41, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree that before going "public" we have to have a good example to deliver. And when we have something to deliver we have to invite other active editors on these articles to discuss this at the "neutral field". Unfortunately, there is not so much active discussions at these articles as show this unfortunate story with edit requests at the Chevron's talk page which stayed without any response for one and half year. This article has had the most active discussion among "supemajors" and notwithstanding the reasons for this, lets use this as an opportunity. But yes, lets concentrate now to improving this article. Beagel (talk) 21:06, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Reconstruction Project

@ Beagel and Rangoon. Can you slow down a bit with the removal of stuff. It is difficult to keep up. Let me be direct. The "stuff" you are removing...Is any of "it" the "stuff" that User:Arturo has added, or requested to be added, over the past year? I don't have time to check. Does anyone know? Also, for instance; as to the references that were just deleted today pertaining to the DeepWater incident. I'm sure the refs that existed in the article were achieved with much discussion and consensus. Were any of the "consensus" refs deleted today?. ```Buster Seven Talk 20:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Buster, for what it is worth I have been watching and everything looks very reasonable. There was indeed ref overkill on that sentence in DWH, and the remaining ones are not impeachable - a government report and the NY times. You may have noticed that the actual content of the industrial accident sections had not been edited down... I believe that is out of care not to offend those who really wanted this information in there. Which is lovely. And it would be reasonable for parties who advocated for that content to step up and do some condensing too, as these sections contribute to the article's bloat. For example, I think there is fat in DWH section... the 2nd paragraph in particular could go altogether, and the 3rd and 4th paragraphs could be condensed into one, with the quotes all taken out. There is plenty of room for detail in the article on spill... Jytdog (talk) 22:34, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Also, I am curious, why do you care if the text that is being edited/condensed is from Arturo? Just curious.Jytdog (talk) 22:34, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Arturo made drafts of the UK and US operations. They were implemented with some changes. The information in the Downstream section is old one. As for DWH references, no, Arturo has not proposed anything for that section if I remember correctly. As we recently merged two subsections about the DWH, it resulted that the fact of explosion and spill had after merger seven references as former different subsections used different references for the same facts. As these facts (explosion, burning, sinking, casualties) are not disputed, seven references was too much and I cut it to two using references which were used in the Deepwater Horizon oil spill article as the parent article for that subsection. There have been a lot of discussions about the coverage of DWH in this article, but it was about the other staff. Beagel (talk) 21:17, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. ```Buster Seven Talk 21:41, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

@Jdog. Thanks for asking. My concern was basically the same as what you express...now that we have agreed to re-vamp the article, care needs to be taken so as not to offend or act contrary to previous discussions or consensus. I wasn't here so I don't know what was agreed to at that previous time. From my reading of the talk history, there was some polarization of editors. I wanted assurances that we were not keeping all of Arturo offerings but discarding Gandydancer, Coretheapple and Petrachan47s offerings. ```Buster Seven Talk 00:08, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Buster, I do find reason for concern about the present Gulf spill section. Using the reasoning that the article needs to be shortened it has been shortened to less copy than either Prudhoe Bay or the Texas explosion sections. Considering that it was much larger in scope than either one, can we expect the other two to soon be condensed as well? I see also that two photos have been removed that would suggest violence or ugliness, leaving only a rather dopey picture of women holding a "What the Flock BP?" sign. It is concerning that there is no longer any mention of the lack of safety concerns on the rig that led to the explosion and loss of lives. Gone is the wording "to make the spill appear less catastrophic than it was” and only "it misled investors about the flow rate of oil from the well" remains. Removed also without remark: “The explosion of the rig was a disaster that resulted from BP's culture of privileging profit over prudence” as stated by the US Attorney General. If it's OK to remove this practice that one finds again and again in previous accidents, can I expect to see it erased from BP's other accidents as well? This change of direction may well be what the editors now want for this article, but I'd just like to point out how much this particular section has changed from just a few days ago, and changed mostly by one editor and without discussion. Gandydancer (talk) 11:51, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Gandy. You speak to what I suspected. Shortening the article is one thing, but Sanitizing it, in the process, is another. I think the photos should be replaced...along with the other aspects that Gandy talks about. Length of the article is not important. Imparting to the reader the full range of BP Corporation and its place in the World (good and bad) is important. Like I said before, it is hard to keep up with the speed of the changes. I wont have an opportunity to do my own checking until mid-Monday. Who knoiws how clean and polished the article will be by then. ```Buster Seven Talk 12:12, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I shortened the DWH section. I disagree very strongly that I sanitized it. First, that assumes bad faith, which I don't appreciate. Secondly, I added detail that wasn't there before (for instance, 4 years of safety monitoring of its safety practice and ethics, and the fact that david rainey was a VP, not just any schmo). I also fixed a mistake which said that BP actually paid $42B by November. And I added a sentence that made it clear that the temporary ban on new contracts is still in place. Third, the other sections are being edited for concision, and as I noted above, nobody touched these sections, until I edited them, which you could take as a sign that people are trying to give you space. That all said, I did take out the reference to the results of BP's investigation and the response to it by TO and Halliburton. If you look there is a huge article on investigations Deepwater Horizon investigation that references something like 30 reports and another big section on the same matter in the DWH spill article -- Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill#Investigations; I don't see how it makes sense to single out this one report, and I don't know how many times it makes sense for Misplaced Pages to re-iterate the same information. After a lot of consideration, I took out the quotes. There is no other section in this article that has quotes, and it seemed to me that while these quotes added color, they did not add more information. The paragraph about consequences makes it clear that BP as a corporation was held dramatically liable for what happened, as were some of its employees, and that further consequences are coming. There is no doubt, reading the current text, that BP did a bad thing. Jytdog (talk) 20:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Question for you, Gandy. Are you familiar with this organization? Nansen Institute? I was looking for sources that discuss BP globally, from the perspective of environmental issues, safety, and ethics, and found a source by them that I want to use (http://www.fni.no/doc&pdf/FNI-R0602.pdf). They seem like honest brokers. The report surprised me in finding that BP makes a good faith effort to act ethically - better than most actually. Not perfect, of course, but actually trying. I would appreciate it if you would check it out. Jytdog (talk) 20:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Answer to you and a question as well. Ten years ago Atle Christer Christiansen asked the question, "Can BP deliver?" What do you think, did they deliver or not? Gandydancer (talk) 23:08, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I copied your signature from below and copied it above, to keep authorship of contents in this chain clear. I hope you don't mind. To respond... the article is not really so much about "beyond petroleum" (in other words, about whether BP has changed into an alt energy company) but as the intro says, how well BP is doing with respect to the broader ideas of "corporate social responsibility (CSR) or corporate citizenship." If your question however is focused on that - on whether they have really moved "beyond petroleum", the answer is of course no. Many business people (not just environmentalists) criticized BP for that marketing campaign, because BP never intended to make a transition away from oil anytime in the near future. Clearly they did increase investment and activity in alt energy, and clearly they have been struggling with how to make a reasonable business out of that; they have abandoned solar and are selling off their wind operations, which I think is sensible - neither is in their skill set nor fits their existing infrastructure and I am guessing they made a business decision that the markets for those two forms of alt energy are not big enough to justify the investments in infrastructure and talent they would need to really excel there. They are staying very much in the biofuels business, and that business fits very well with their chemical production and liquid fuel transport businesses. But again, they are not moving away from oil at all. With respect to delivering on their stated agenda to be a better corporate citizen, the record is of course mixed. There are the spectacular industrial accidents in the US (which I believe were caused by a pretty dramatic underinvestment in (a) renewing the old infrastructure they bought from Amoco, and (b) maintaining it and (c) developing and maintaining sound safety policy and management. The resulting IAs made them lousy corporate citizens, and they have been and are being punished for that. Outside of that, it seems to me that they are walking the talk as well as any multinational oil company can. I am still learning about this but I am pretty impressed. I don't know how often you read companies' annual reports, but BP's are pretty different from most that I have read. For each segment of their business, they actually lead the detailed discussion of each with a discussion of CSR issues, and they have actually developed metrics that they report to track their performance on these issues (not sure if you understand what that means, for company to develop metrics and report them... but that is a big deal). If you haven't looked at their annual report it might be worth your time to skim it, to see what I mean. And they do seem to be ahead of the curve with respect to their peers on issues like human rights and climate change. I found another article from Nansen Institute that actually compares the biggest 4 oil companies on CSR, written by a different set of authors there. http://www.fni.no/doc&pdf/FNI-R0704.pdf They come out looking pretty good. All that said, they are a big oil company. To the extent that anybody thinks that is just an evil business... and nobody can play in it without being evil... well there is nothing that one can say about that, other than to acknowledge that point of view ... Is that the sort of answer you were looking for? Jytdog (talk) 20:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

It seems that you have taken my question as a soapbox opportunity, but never mind--let's just move forward. Gandydancer (talk) 13:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand. You asked me a very broad question ("What do you think, did they deliver or not?") that called for me to render my opinion (which I thought was strange) and I tried to answer it, because I wanted to be responsive to you. I was really trying to answer your question, in good faith. I don't view the world as black and white. Your response seems very unfair to me. Unhappy. Jytdog (talk) 13:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I did read some of the article and of course one must always try to figure out exactly who the author of an article is, and I did find that he heads this group: As for the Nansen Inst.--not familiar to me--were they to you? After reading their page I'll admit that they do seem to be a peaceful sort of group. Of course one must always keep in mind that Henry Kissinger won a Nobel Peace Prize to keep things in perspective. Gandydancer (talk) 23:08, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I had not heard of Nansen institute before. After I found that report, I backed out of it to their main page and read a bunch of stuff. They seem to be pretty centrist in a "euro" sense, which is much more left wing than what centrist means in the US - things like protecting the environment, sustainability, transparency, and a demand for strong ethics are really baked in. I intend to use both of these to generate some content, so if you object to either it would be great to hear that. Jytdog (talk) 20:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I looked at the other reports as well but found nothing more recent than ten years old. Of course, you will use what you want, but I would not use an article by a man who makes his living as the head of Point Carbon which "now has more than 55,000 clients, including the world’s major energy companies" and that used Exxon (I don't know anything about the French corporation) as a comparison to announce that BP was shown to be superior. Gandydancer (talk) 13:40, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. Jytdog (talk) 13:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Conversion to SI units

Why the convert templates converting barrels to cubic meters (SI units) were removed? the edit summary says: rm - OTT for lead. What that means? WP:OTT stands for Wikiproject Ottawa, so there should be some other meaning. Beagel (talk) 21:25, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Over the top. In my view these are useful in the main body of the article but a bit too much for the lead. They will go over the head of 99.9% of readers and break the flow of the text.Rangoon11 (talk) 21:29, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Stock history

I have two comments/questions about this subsection:

• Why we need a separate 'Stock history' subsection under the 'Stock' subsection if this subsection accounts more than 80% of the 'Stock' subsection and this is the only subsection here. I propose to remove the unneeded subsection heading 'Stock history' and to have the single 'Stock' subsection.
• Some information in the 'Stock history' subsection belongs actually to the 'History' section. At least information about the governmental decision to privatize a stock in BP is more important regarding the company's history than just the stock history. I propose to move most of the first paragraph in the 'Stock history' subsection into the 'History' section.

Beagel (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

As there was no respond for a week, I made these changes. Beagel (talk) 10:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Further facts to update

As editors are working on consolidating information in the Operations section of the article, I have been reviewing the details to see if there are any pieces of information that can be updated in this section. The following are a few details that I noted are now out-of-date.

In the United States section under Operations:

# of employees

• The number of employees is no longer 23,000 since the sale of the Texas City refinery in February; the current number is 21,000. Additionally, the investment in the U.S. can also be updated. See the Forbes source below and the Investment in America page on the BP website

Proposed change:

As of March 2013, the company employs approximately 21,000 people in the US, where it has invested $55 billion in energy development.

 Done ```Buster Seven Talk 08:14, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Buster Seven, I think that this change wasn't completely made in the article or has been partly undone: I see that the investment number has been updated but not the total number of employees in the first paragraph of the United States section has not. Would you be able to update this? I appreciate your previous assistance. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 23:36, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done The number of employees in the U.S. was updated per above. Beagel (talk) 04:43, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

# of leases

• In the paragraph on operations in the deepwater Gulf of Mexico, the company was awarded 40 leases following the June 2012 bid. See The Washington Post source below

Proposed change:

In December 2011, BP acquired 11 newly available leases for resource exploration rights to areas of federal waters in the Gulf and in June 2012 it acquired 40 further leases.

• The Washington Post article is interesting. To a layperson, the language used in the article is much clearer than the above version and would be preferable for an encyclopedia: leases for "offshore oil and gas prospects". I am guessing "resources" is industry speak, but if you mean "oil" then that's probably what we should say. The article also mentioned BP is the largest producer in the Gulf, why not mention that too? As a reader, I would appreciate this tidbit. From WaPo: The London-based oil giant is the largest leaseholder in the deep-water Gulf of Mexico, with more than 700 leases, and it is the gulf’s largest producer of oil and gas, from more than 20 fields there. It won 40 new leases in June. petrarchan47tc 08:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Petra here about mentioning that BP is the "gulf's largest producer of oil and gas". This is the perfect location and the same ref can be used for both pieces of information. Being the largest producer is important especially if we are going to change the ranking (requestd below)```Buster Seven Talk 09:04, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• Change of 43 leases into 40  Done Note: I did not remove the "in the central region of the Gulf" ending which was part of the sentence in the article prior to Arturo's request but not included in Arturo's request. If the 40 leases were not "in the central region of the Gulf", please advise. ```Buster Seven Talk 08:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• • • Petrarchan, while The Washington Post's article linked above is a good reference for the leases acquired in June, it is otherwise out of date regarding BP's presence in the Gulf. As I've explained below, BP is no longer the largest producer in the Gulf. Also, due to a divestment completed at end of November (see this Houston Business Journal article), the number of fields BP has in the deepwater Gulf of Mexico is now more than 15 fields, rather than 20. I believe that due to some expiring licenses, the company has nearly 700 leases, rather than "more than 700" although I am still confirming that. Arturo at BP (talk) 18:01, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
      • That's an important factoid. Can you point to a reliable source that provides more updated data? Coretheapple (talk) 18:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
        • Coretheapple, I have not been able to locate a secondary source that clearly details the reduced number of fields, but as you can see from the Houston Business Journal source I linked above, since The Washington Post's article, BP sold its interests in around seven fields. The total number is now definitely less than the "more than 20" reported in The Washington Post. I do know the actual number of fields is 16 now. If you were referring to number of leases, there is an internal database we are able to access for lease information but it is not public and I am not aware of any news articles revealing the latest numbers. Arturo at BP (talk) 23:25, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Macondo field

• In the same paragraph there's a strange sentence that states:

It also owns corrupted Macondo field.

I'm not sure what this should say, but the source cited doesn't say anything about Macondo at all.

• The Macondo field is the site of the DeepWaterHorizon drilling rig explosion. True, the ref doesnt mention Macondo or DWH but I'm sure a source can be found that makes that point. ```Buster Seven Talk 09:16, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• When I get a chance, I will search out a reference that makes the connection between Macondo and DWH. ```Buster Seven Talk 20:51, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• A new sentence with a reference has been suggested below. I don't presume to be the only one capable of making the suggested changes. I just trust myself the most. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:09, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Suggested sentence....BP is also the leaseholder and operator of the Macondo well, the site of the Deepwater Horizon explosion and oil spill.

Just a technical clarification: it is correct to say that BP is (was?) operator of the Macondo well, but the lease is not for the well but the whole Macondo Prospect (Mississippi Canyon Block 252). It is interesting what actually happened with this lease after the spill: is it still in force or was it cancelled by authorities? If yes, I propose a modified text: BP is also the leaseholder of the Macondo Prospect and was operator of the Macondo well, the site of the Deepwater Horizon explosion and oil spill.

Beagel (talk) 09:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Beagel, let me check with folks who know better than me so we have the best, most precise wording. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 14:02, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I have heard back from my colleague who confirms that the most precise way to explain the lease is the following:

BP is the leaseholder of Mississippi Canyon Block 252 and the operator of the Macondo well, the site of the Deepwater Horizon explosion and oil spill.

The additional source here is a Platts article that explains that BP owns the lease for MC 252 until 2018. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 23:29, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done I also added Macondo Prospect in brackets after MCB252 to avoid confusion if the MCB252 and Macondo are the same or not. Beagel (talk) 04:49, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

gas production figure

• For the paragraph beginning "In the lower 48 states", the gas production figure can be updated to the 2012 amount. See The Wall Street Journal source below and BP Annual Report, p88

Proposed change:

In the lower 48 states, BP has a presence in seven of the top gas basins and in 2011 2012 produced more than 1,651 million cubic feet per day (46.8 million cubic metres per day) of natural gas.

 Done ```Buster Seven Talk 13:06, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

U.S. gas producer ranking

• The company is no longer the sixth largest natural gas producer in the U.S. due to lower production, so I believe this information can be removed from the article.

• Rather than remove we should replace with the current ranking (seventh, ninth, twelfth), whatever it is. Why should the ranking not be mentioned just because it went down? ```Buster Seven Talk 08:54, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• Good catch, Buster! petrarchan47tc 23:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

• Below, Arturo states that specific ranking is not available but that BP is within the Top Ten. Until specific ranking is provided, I suggest we mention the Top Ten status. ```Buster Seven Talk 06:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Arturo. Where is mention of this "sixth largest natural gas producer in the U.S," made in the article. I can't find it in the U.S. section. ```Buster Seven Talk 12:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Buster Seven, thanks for asking. It is at the beginning of the second sentence after the first sentence which has the natural gas production number and reference to seven gas basins. I made a mistake though in the language you just put in. 1,651 is for 2012 not 2011. I gave that number and said it was for 2012 and the sources show it is for 2012, but then in the language I proposed, I accidentally put 2011. Can you change 2011 to 2012? Arturo at BP (talk) 13:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I will change 2011 to 2012.  Done The other, later today. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:57, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

retail site

• Finally, there are now 10,000 retail sites within the U.S., not 11,000. See BP Annual Report p77

•  Done ```Buster Seven Talk 19:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

possible fines

Also, it is good to see that in the section on Deepwater Horizon that there has been clarification regarding the $42 billion reserve. I also have a clarification to offer here regarding the figure for the possible fines under the Clean Water Act: more recent articles than the one currently cited state that the maximum penalty would be $17.5 billion due to a recent court ruling. See this Huffington Post article, this Reuters article that explains why the amount of the potential maximum penalty dropped and this New York Times article.

•  Done via this diff 4/17/2013

References

1. Christopher Helman (6 March 2013). "BP's Bob Dudley Dodges Trial Specifics In Speech To Oil Industry Faithful". Forbes. Retrieved 8 April 2013.
2. Cite error: The named reference NYTBusiness2012 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. Steven Mufson (28 November 2012). "EPA suspends BP from new federal contracts in wake of oil spill". The Washington Post. Retrieved 8 April 2013.
4. ^ Susan Buchanan (25 March 2013). "Judge says two BP contractors not at fault". Louisiana Weekly. Retrieved 11 April 2013.
5. Starr Spencer (20 April 2012). "Before there was an oil spill, what was later called Macondo had a rich past". Platts. Retrieved 15 April 2013.
6. "BP to Sell Wyoming Assets". Zacks Equity Research. 26 June 2012. Retrieved 31 July 2012.
7. "Annual Report and Form 20-F 2012" (PDF). bp.com. BP. 2013. Retrieved 1 April 2013.

If someone is able to make these updates, I would be grateful. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 23:28, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

And, if the someone that makes these changes would be so kind as to "sign-off" here by marking each request above as  Done, I would be grateful. Thanks also. ```Buster Seven Talk 06:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Buster Seven, thank you for your responses above and for making two of the requested edits. Regarding the notes from you and Petrarchan about BP being the largest oil and gas producer in the Gulf of Mexico, I realize that this is currently included in the article but it is no longer the case. See this Reuters article that explains BP is currently the second largest producer in the Gulf and also this article from The Wall Street Journal noting that Royal Dutch Shell is now the largest. Would you mind updating this, too?

To explain my question about the Macondo sentence, I understood that this referred to the Macondo prospect that was the site of the Deepwater Horizon, however the phrasing "It also owns corrupted Macondo field" is confusing. I found a source to add here and think it might help to rewrite this to state that:

BP is also the leaseholder and operator of the Macondo well, the site of the Deepwater Horizon explosion and oil spill.

For the ranking for natural gas in the U.S., I expect BP is still in the top 10, but do not have a source to show this yet. We have yet to compare production for 2012 with other companies and there are no news articles stating our ranking.

Also, I would appreciate it if you or someone else would be able to make the remaining edits that I've requested above regarding the gas production in the lower 48 states, number of retail sites in the U.S. and the clarification of the maximum potential penalty under the Clean Water Act? Thanks, Arturo at BP (talk) 21:47, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I will consider the changes over the weekend. Your responding is appreciated. While I am against paid editing on the whole I respect that you are up-front and working within the guidelines set by Jimbo elsewhere. My hope is that by working with you to create the Best article for our reader, this article can be a template for future paid advocate editing. I have always edited articles like this (corporate/political/religious) with the foregone conclusion and the inevitability that some of my fellow editors were on the payroll. I think it is to the detriment of the article and our reader but...it's the old "rock and a hard place". At least if I do the changes you request, I'll trust my "antennea" for spin and sanitizing. ```Buster Seven Talk 06:43, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

@ Arturo. I believe all your requests have been initiated. ```Buster Seven Talk 20:32, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

More to update: BP to sell US wind farms

From The Independent:

"BP's one-time drive to move "Beyond Petroleum" is sputtering to a halt after the FTSE 100 giant put its US wind power business up for sale for an estimated $1.5bn (£990m).

"A month after BP's chief executive, Bob Dudley, said he had "thrown in the towel" in solar, the company is trying to sell its interests in 16 US wind farms in a move that would see it exit wind power altogether.

"The sale would leave BP's renewable energy division – once a key hope for growing the company – with a handful of biofuels businesses and low-key research projects. A BP spokesman said: "BP has decided to market for sale our US wind energy business as part of a continuing effort to become a more focused on oil and gas company and reposition the company for sustainable growth into the future."

More:

"BP to Sell U.S. Wind Business in Retreat to Fossil Fuels"

"BP: Back to Petroleum and Beyond Puff-power" petrarchan47tc 03:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. If you look at the article, the information that BP plans to sell its wind power unit in the United States was added to the article on 3 April and the operations sections were updated accordingly. Beagel (talk) 04:24, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

What has not been added from these media sources is the context: all of them saying BP has now made its final exit from Alternative Energy and is fully focussed on oil and gas now. This understanding requires changes to the first paragraph of the lede and to any mentions of the alternative energy initiatives within the body, imo. Right now all we've done is state "wind up for sale", allowing no context for the reader. petrarchan47tc 23:04, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe this is true, petrarchan. As far as I can see BP remains committed to biofuels which are not oil and gas. Edits I made, made it clear that they have exited wind and solar, that is true. If you think about it, those businesses don't fit BP's DNA -- they both require major manufacturing, and BP is essentially a chemical company, and biofuels are a fit with that. Just a different kind of refining and the expansion from chemicals into biotechnology has been done lots of times before. Jytdog (talk) 03:00, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't know whether it's true or not, my comment was referring to what WP:RS were saying. When it comes to article content, I am not interested in anyone's WP:OR, including my own. petrarchan47tc 04:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

However, BP noted that their departure from wind doesn’t mean the company is completely out of the alternative energy business. BP still produces ethanol in Brazil and the United Kingdom, and is also conducting biofuel research in the United States. “This is not an exit from alternative energy,” wrote Hartwig. Beagel (talk) 05:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, BP's official stance should be added as well.

This is from Ted Magazine:

"Mark Salt, a London-based spokesman for BP, said in an e-mailed statement to Bloomberg. The company will also sell projects in various stages of development including 2,000 megawatts of wind poised to start construction, he said.

BP, which in the past had promoted a “Beyond Petroleum” public relations campaign emphasizing renewable and alternative sources of energy, is focusing now on oil and natural gas following the 2010 oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

"BP has decided to market for sale our U.S. wind energy business as part of a continuing effort to become a more focused oil and gas company and re-position the company for sustainable growth into the future," Salt said." petrarchan47tc 05:58, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

You are dead on correct here. I stand corrected. My apologies. Jytdog (talk) 13:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Missing context

BP to sell US wind farms as it sticks to oil and gas petrarchan47tc 03:36, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Gulf spill section

Speaking about the Gulf spill section, on April 5 Jytdog said he planned to "do some condensing too, as these sections contribute to the article's bloat. For example, I think there is fat in DWH section... the 2nd paragraph in particular could go altogether, and the 3rd and 4th paragraphs could be condensed into one, with the quotes all taken out." and on April 6 he did complete these edits. On that date I objected with only one editor in agreement, however that editor made no move to restore a more balanced version. So, consensus remains in agreement with the new version, is that correct? Gandydancer (talk) 14:34, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I made a lengthy reply to you, to which you did not reply.... we achieve consensus by talking and reasoning. I gave reasons for my changes. Why don't you respond? This is not "my way or the highway" - we should be able to reason our way to a consensus. Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Where do you get I'm saying "my way or the highway"? I stated that I was not satisfied with the changes but I did not revert you, and now I am asking other editors for input on the section. If the other editors are satisfied then it should be left as is. If not it should be adjusted. What is wrong with that? Gandydancer (talk) 02:03, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Nothing is wrong with that. You are free to do as you please. But we are apparently the two most interested parties. I don't understand why you wouldn't continue the conversation to reach consensus with anybody who is talking. No obligation of course. Jytdog (talk) 02:31, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

What would you all think of updating and expanding a bit the environmental impact mention in this section? Presently, the article has "there was damage" and leaves it at that. I don't see why the reader isn't allotted a bit more detail. In my view, the amount of information given about the effect on the environment should exceed the court-related information. The only reason BP is in court over this is because it was so harmful to the environment. If they'd spilled a non-toxic substance, they probably wouldn't be in court in the first place. So it's baffling to me that we act as if the environmental damage deserves barely a mention. At the anniversaries of this accident (right now we are approaching the third year anniversary), good summaries of these effects appear in the media - always they mention "we won't truly know the environmental effects of this for years" - but we do know some results. The latest:

"Three years after BP oil spill, USF research finds massive die-off"

"Dolphin Deaths in the Gulf Three Years After the Oil Spill"

Commentary on above NWF piece

"Three years later, oil effects still unfolding"

(related) :

"Take It With a Grain of (Sea) Salt: Gulf Microbe Study Was Funded by BP"

Perhaps the related oil spill article can be updated while we're at it. petrarchan47tc 05:46, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I think some compressed, very summarizing statements on environmental consequences would make sense. Right now we have compressed, summarizing paragraphs on the event and on legal consequences, both very relevant to BP as a company. We have "main" links to the 2 "main events" - the explosion and the spill. We have "see also" links to several of the subarticles from the spill (just added one for environmental consequences) The subarticle on the environmental consequences should be the most up-to-date and detailed; the section in the article on the spill should summarize that (for instance, via a copy of the lead of that article), and as I mentioned, a very compressed summary of that section could go here. One of the big problems with wikipedia is the way that content isn't kept harmonized -- people often just want to load content into the topmost article in the chain, which leads to bloat in that head article and what is worse, a poor (uneven, duplicative, and often contradictory and because of all that, time-wasting) presentation of information for anybody who actually cares and wants to learn about what happened. (fixing this elsewhere is what got me active as an editor) I would support an addition of information done that way - there should be no source here is that is not in the detailed article. Jytdog (talk) 12:58, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

The legal ramifications and the environmental ones should be given due weight in this article - we just have to figure out what due weight means in this case. It is certainly unbalanced now and represents a major disconnect - the highest fines of all time are being levied because of the amount of damage done. I should have been more clear: I am asking for help updating all 3 relevant articles with this new information. I would need help to add anything to the main oil spill article (long story, see the talk page there to understand the problem). Also, the split-off article dealing with environmental damage needs tremendous help. It was cut off from the main article without any agreement on the talk page, and the summary was created and added by one person without any input from the group (and continues to be trimmed in a way not in keeping with Wiki guidelines). The split-off page gets about 20 views per day and is quite a mess. When I try to make an update to these two articles, it is followed by the removal of other content. I have reason to believe my work as an editor is more harmful than good on these BP oil spill articles due to personal games being played, therefore I am asking for other editors to please help with this. As for, "but we do have links to related articles" - we also have links to related "litigation" article but yet have a giant paragraph here representing about 2/3rds of the coverage of BP & the world's largest accidental marine oil spill. There was never consensus to cut the Gulf spill section down to two paragraphs, that I'm aware of. I think it would be good to question "due weight" once again with regard to this section and BP's article as a whole. petrarchan47tc 22:51, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Petrarchan, I can understand how difficult it is to find yourself in a position where it appears that signing your name to an edit is a kiss of death for it--see for instance my recent attempts to edit the Purdhoe section that were instantly deleted along with Arturo's as well because it was thought that it was all my work. When it was thought that it was Arturo's work there was no objection. So, it is a problem. As for the way the splits were done, it was indeed about the nuttiest thing I've ever seen. First someone that had never worked on the article dropped in out of the blue and did a bunch but left no summaries and then the editor from Hell popped in and then I asked for help from a stranger and got a lot more than I had asked for... *gandy crosses her eyes* I wonder--where would be a good place to start? Gandydancer (talk) 17:26, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Gandy, thank you so much for your response. I have two thoughts. BP has a "Misplaced Pages editing team" or some such thing (as per the HuffPo article). It is clear to me that because taking them on, so to speak, is so challenging and stressful given their limitless resources and fantastic support system here at Wiki that, as you earlier suggested, the only answer is to 'combat' it with an equal force. As you said, that would very literally mean that a COI editor from the 'other side' should be here doing the same thing Arturo does. We would also need a team like CREWE. When I first heard you suggest the Greenpeace rep (was that your example?), I thought it sounded ludicrous. Now I see it is exactly as ludicrous as having BP PR write this article. I watch the indies here bite each others' ankles every time one turns around. And it strikes me this is a function of our working for free, and for very little reward. This is why an organized team somewhat like CREWE, even if more loosely organized and with few members, is actually a good idea. If Wiki editors are now seriously being asked to do what we are doing at this page, we need to take a moment and reflect on what that really means. We are up against a PR department of one of the most powerful, wealthy companies in the world. And they are not about to stop caring A LOT about what this page says. They have loyal editors here who seem much more organized and less emotional than those of us interesting in removing spin. If that doesn't change, nothing will change with regard to the POV in the article. Another idea also is to keep this talk page very content-focused and the moment feelings are hurt, personal talk pages could be used instead of this one to deal with it. But I also agree that we must not silence ourselves or each other regarding the bullshit that has gone on at this page for about a year now. We've really only just begun uncovering the story.

The way to move forward in my opinion, is to keep talking about all of this: problems with the BP page, the oil spill page and its insane editing history, etc. Lastly, as either Core or Carbuncle said, the indies do need to just start being bold and making edits. The assumed suggestion is that with a lot of eyeballs now on these pages, edits sticking to guidelines should have enough support to remain in one form or another (ie, our efforts won't be thoroughly wasted). petrarchan47tc 23:45, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Well it surely was not Carbuncle that boldly edited--Jytdog told him to be bold and edit and instead he sulked off calling us shills. Re paid editors, I agree that we need something in place for corporations when they believe that their article is not accurate, but the scenario that you put on you talk page with an paid environmental editor rewriting entire articles as company editors are doing really does give a person something to think about. I wonder if anyone of the Higher Ups have given any serious thought to the idea of having watch dogs or watch dog groups for any article with a paid editor? Gandydancer (talk) 12:46, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

From my read, it seems the really High Ups prefer to assume all is going well with Paid Editors on talk pages. No investigation into the truth of that has been made, and it appears that will remain the case. petrarchan47tc 19:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that I think it's important to expose this article to as many eyes as possible within Misplaced Pages, and to utilize adjudication boards/procedures as much as possible, such as the RfC that I just commenced when editors repeatedly removed text from the Clean Air Trial section, and demoted it to subsection. If nothing else, doing so will get more editors involved. The paid editor issue is not the only one troublesome in this article; the rest seems to be concerted whitewashing, which may or may not have a COI element. Your general point on paid editing is an important one. We have a paid editor to point out when the article tilts in one direction, but no countervailing force when the article points in another direction. The article cries out for expert attention from persons versed in environmental issues and this company's track record. Coretheapple (talk) 19:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I think you are right. To give you some background, in the past, our RfCs have not attracted much attention. The last one filed by Martin Hogbin attracted literally no one. But perhaps you know some secrets? And I really do agree that a counter-force should be called in here. Of course, with the attitude towards environmentalists, I can't imagine anyone accepting that delicious offer, unless they were paid like Arturo. Non-profits probably don't have extra help and resources lying around to spend time in the recesses of Misplaced Pages. What would be the payoff for them? petrarchan47tc 20:40, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Updating

Leading to the third anniversary, lots of good summary articles will emerge. I'll leave them here:

On dolphins, shrimp, etc.. petrarchan47tc 04:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

On seafood petrarchan47tc 06:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Archiving for this article

Edits a late as April 2 have been moved to Archives. Is this reasonable? Sometimes quick archiving has been used as a way to cut discussion short. I believe that this very quick archiving is not helping to write a balanced article. Gandydancer (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. An article such as this, which requires research and vetting of changes by volunteers (with RL time-constraints)should have at least a 2 to 3 week window. Anything less is a rush to judgement. Please reconsider for the benefit of the article, our reader, and all editors working toward improvement. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:35, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The article archiving time was shortened when after recent editing the talk page included almost 30 talks and was about 300k in size which made it quite unmanageable. Right now the archiving is set for 1 week (that means 1 week without any edit) and it still too long. What archiving time you suggest? Beagel (talk) 18:48, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Two weeks seems fair. I think is is advantageous to have discussion available. To just scrool up to a previous discussion saves time. I'm a bit forgetfull. I need what I read last week to be easily available. Is their a limit as to the size of the talk page? I see no detriment to letting conversations smolder a bit. 3 weeks would be better but I will be satisfied with 2. ```Buster Seven Talk 19:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)BTW....Who shortened the archive time? Buster Seven Talk

The last change (1 week) was made by Wwoods. Before that it was shortened by me for reasons explained above. Beagel (talk) 04:51, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I'd certainly prefer three wks but will accept two, esp. if slowness is a problem for many people. Just curious, do a lot of people still have slow computers? Gandydancer (talk) 19:58, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I changed the autoarchiving to two weeks at the moment and we could change it longer when intensity of edits decreases (number of open sections falls under 10). Beagel (talk) 04:41, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Much appreciated, Beagel. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:56, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

BP Biofuels

Recently the new section named 'BP Biofuels' was added. I have some doubts about this addition. While some of this information could be used as addition to the existing 'Alternative energy' section, it does not fit as a separate section. First, biofuels are part of alternative energy and therefore, if added, it should be a part of the alternative energy article. Second, some of this information is already included in the 'Alternative energy' section. Third, it includes details which are too specific for this article (patents etc). Fourth, if some part of this addition are well-sourced, some other parts are going without any references. I propose to summarize this into the *alternative ebergy' article and based on the added information create a new stub named BP Biofuels. As an alternative, rename BP Biofuels Highlands BP Biofuels and expand that article by this addition here. Beagel (talk) 18:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

As a rule I assume good faith. However, I question the recent additions, etc by DillantheVillan, XXavyer and Martin. DtV and Xx are at best novice editors with VERY low edit counts. To come to an article such as this and make voluminous inclusions/deductions without a single word at the talk page is....questionable. And then, for Martin to undo, again without proper discussion, is questionable. This in no way doubts the verifiability of the inclusions; it just doesnt sit well within the framework of working together. I won't undo Martins undo, but I would like to. Talk binds us. Independent action seperates us.....again.```Buster Seven Talk 18:59, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The information is quite odd, isn't it? I would have tended to delete it as well and discuss it here. But I'll most likely trust Beagel's judgement here. Gandydancer (talk) 19:53, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

It looks like it was copied from another source, probably an essay, hence why it reads like a standalone piece. It simply doesn't fit in the article. We could do with a couple more sentences on BP biofuels activities in the Alternative Energy section but I struggle to see how they could be sourced from this rather curious text.Rangoon11 (talk) 20:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

There was some good material in it so I incorporated that material into the article. I was having a hard time finding a home for the material and realized that the existing Alt Energy section was not well ordered, so I tightened its organization by putting wind/solar (which are gone or on their way out) in one paragraph, and biofuels (which are staying) in another; and I organized the biofuels paragraph by region. (are they doing any biofuel work in asia??) I don't care what happens to the rest of the inserted/deleted material -- to me it was essay-like or kind of random (e.g. the patent discussion) Jytdog (talk) 21:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I further trimemd the text as two last paragraphs were clearly too promotional based largely on the BP's website / press releases. I combined the substance of these paragraphs into the biofuels paragraph. I also changed the order of biofules and solar/wind paragraphs as by my understanding it is more important what the company does than what it did/planned but cancelled. Beagel (talk) 16:11, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Canadian oil sands

The latest addition to this section says that "In 2013 shareholders criticized executive pay regime and carbon-intensive projects in Canada." However, the source was published before the annual meeting, so we actually need a reference published after the meeting, which says what exactly happened. In addition, the critics about the executive pay regime does not belong here but should be moved into the corporate affairs section.

I also re-arranged the latest addition by Watti Renew to make it fit with the existing text. Beagel (talk) 16:23, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

This is the story by Reuters about what happened on the annual shareholders' meeting. Beagel (talk) 16:37, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Two more articles on the stockholder resistance to BP's tar sands project:

• "Oil giant BP today signalled it would press on with a controversial Canadian tar sands project despite facing a showdown with environmental campaigners and shareholders." Independent
• "The board of U.K. oil giant BP successfully defeated an AGM resolution Thursday from activist shareholders who wanted a full investigation into the company’s plans to launch a major oil sands project in Alberta, Canada" WSJ: BP Defeats Oil Sands Critics, But Controversy Won’t Die

Something else to consider for this section, "Legally speaking, diluted bitumen like the heavy crude that's overrun Mayflower, Arkansas, is not classified as 'oil'. And it's that very distinction that exempts Exxon from contributing to the government's oil spillage cleanup fund." (Source). It doesn't seem very encyclopedic to refrain from clarifying the definition of "Canadian oil sands" for the reader. Most likely they will leave thinking this is something different from tar sands, something cleaner, and that it is actually oil. Both are false understandings put forth by BP's version this section. In my understanding, this name change is akin to "KFC" changing from "Kentucky Fried Chicken". Fine for the company, not good for an encyclopedia. petrarchan47tc 23:17, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

We have articles oil sands and Athabasca oil sands–both linked from this article. As the term "oil sands" and its alternative names are described in the oil sands article, I don't think that we should to discuss here what oil sands are. I don't think that we should speculate what our readers think or not. If you have a question, you will check the relevant article. As for the media report by Russia Today that diluted bitumen is not 'oil', this is just the journalist misinterpretation 'oil' as a synonym for petroleum (crude oil). Diluted bitumen is not petroleum but it is still covered by more broader term 'oil'.

There is also a problem that Sunrise, Terre de Grace and Pike projects are duplicated here and in the North America section. The North America section seems to be more precise. I think they should be merged. Beagel (talk) 09:47, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. I will add a short explanation to the section. As for the RT article, you didn't read it very carefully. It was regarding US law, which states that dilbit is not oil. The journalist simply conveyed that information. petrarchan47tc 23:52, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Could you please provide what the law (and not Russia Today) says exactly? You see that it is about conventional oil (crude oil). Oil is more general term. And in the case of Russia Today I read it. It uses in the first paragraph incorrectly the term "oil" but later it uses term "conventional oil":

"The IRS has classified tar sands as different from conventional oil, and thus the tax levied to fill the liability trust fund is not levied on tar sands crude."

You had added this oil sands section, and Mining.com was one of the refs you used, so I'm not sure why you have a problem with RT, but this article has all the information you want about the law. A snippet: The oil industry has often said that dilbit, a heavy crude oil from Canada's tar sands, isn't much different from conventional crude oil. But when it comes to paying into a federal fund used to clean up oil spills, it's different enough to deserve a sizeable tax break. Dilbit is exempt from the tax, because the 1980 legislation that created the tax states that "the term crude oil does not include synthetic petroleum, e.g., shale oil, liquids from coal, tar sands, or biomass..." The Internal Revenue Service cited that 1980 text in a 2011 memo that confirmed the exemption for at least one company. petrarchan47tc 05:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Could I ask you do not put your comments inside my comments as it makes hard to follow who said what. As I explained, the problem with Russia Today is that it confuses conventional oil (petroleum) with oil, which is a general term. The same does the insideclimatenews.org. However, I would like to thank you for the 2011 memo as it says that "tar sands imported into the United States are not subject on the excise tax on petroleum ...". So, the IRS talks about petroleum (crude oil, conventional oil) and not about oil, which is broader term. Also, it regulates the fiscal aspects and actually says nothing about the chemical properties.

I did not understand what you meant by your comment that I added the oil sands sections, but I would like to make correction that I did not create that section. What I did was implementing Arturo's proposal after it was vetted at the talk page. As for Mining.com reference, is there any problem with this? Beagel (talk) 17:28, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Your addition is also incorrect as dilbit is not the same as oil sands. The synonym (and geologically more correct term than oil sands or tar sands) is bituminous sands. Dilbit is a man-made mix of bitumen or heavy oil and diluent, usually natural gas condensate. It is used for transportation by pipeline as the viscosity of bitumen is otherwise too high. Beagel (talk) 06:47, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

These are very good additions, and should remain intact, regardless of whatever other articles may exist in the general vicinity of this subject matter. Coretheapple (talk) 01:48, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

We should distinguish what is the critics about exploiting oil sands in general (that means what applies to all oil sands projects as such notwithstanding which company does this) and what critics is specifically about BP activities. At the moment they are somehow mixed. E.g. Hansen's critics is about the oil sand exploitation as such and not about the BP activities specifically. It should be more clear what is what. Beagel (talk) 08:57, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Hansen's comments came from an article about BP's Canadian oils sands project, and Hansen's comment is about that very project. It's perfectly fitting. Also, I've boldly replaced the wikilink to "Oil sands" article. It seems quite ludicrous to argue it shouldn't be linked. petrarchan47tc 04:21, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually that article is not specifically about the BP project but UK governments lobbyng for BP and Shell projects. And Hansen's comment is not about the BP project. The paragraph before Hansen's comment talks about the all Canadian oil sands. It followed by the Hansen's comment "Nasa scientist James Hansen says if the oil sands were exploited as projected it would be "game over for the climate"." This is clearly about the oil sands development in general, not specifically about the BP's project. The link is here so everybody could take a look what the source actually says.

As for the link to oil sands, this term was/is already linked in this article before that subsection. I don't knew how you come to the conclusion that someone argues that this term should not be linked. The link was removed per WP:OVERLINK but as you re-inserted it, let it stay now. Beagel (talk) 04:45, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Beagle, your argument would necessitate the removal of this sentence, as it is not about BP specifically: "...using recycled groundwater makes in situ drilling a more environmentally friendly option when compared with oil sands mining". petrarchan47tc 04:33, 15 April 2013 (UTC) (later edit) Er, I guess you didn't say "remove" but 'make more clear'. I don't think the section needs more clarity. Like you said, we shouldn't underestimate the intelligence of the reader. petrarchan47tc 04:35, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Again, please read what I wrote. I did not said that Hansen's statement should be removed. I said that "we should distinguish what is the critics about exploiting oil sands in general (that means what applies to all oil sands projects as such notwithstanding which company does this) and what critics is specifically about BP activities." That means reorganise the text in way that the reader can easily understand what critics is about using oil sands in general and what is the BP specific critics. There was no proposal for removal. Beagel (talk) 04:52, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Reread my entire comment, please. petrarchan47tc 05:23, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry, I wrote my answer before you added the second part of your comment. If I understand correctly, you say that we should not make distinction between the critics about extraction of oil sands in general and specific critics about BP's activities? As your comment about removing information about SAGD process used by BP, I think that probably we should reconsider and rewrite the whole subsections to remove all potential issues which may be with this subsection. Beagel (talk) 17:35, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm lost now. Do you have any issues with this section as it is currently? Please state them clearly if so. For the record, I do not. Also, please make sure your suggestions are in keeping with your past editing. In other words, don't suggest we create a new guideline for this section which you have not applied to your other additions. NPOV editing is uniformly applied across articles and with regard to "negative" or "positive" additions. So I get concerned when I see suggestions that would treat information differently based on its color. petrarchan47tc 23:20, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

As I said above, we should make distinction what critics is about exploiting oil sands in general (notwithstanding who is the operator) and what critics is focused on the BP oil sands activities. In its current form (Hansen's statement in between two BP specific critics) it makes a false impression that also Hansen's statement is about BP, and therefore it violates NPOV. I also understand from your comment that you have a problem with mentioning SAGD process (in-situ processing) although I did not understand what was the exact problem with this. It seems that I misunderstand you and I am glad you are saying there is no problem with this. Beagel (talk) 04:59, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Lisburne Field spill

Just over two weeks ago, this article was published on ZDNet. It noted some specific issues with the Prudhoe Bay 2006-2007 section of the article as rewritten by User:Arturo at BP. It isn't clear to me from reading the discussions here or looking at the current version of this article if any of those issues were examined. Perhaps there was nothing that needed to be changed. As an example, it was noted that there is no mention in this article of a leak of "50,000 gallons of an oil and water mix onto the tundra about half a mile from Prudhoe Bay. Warnings, including sensors that showed drops in temperature and even alarms, began going off but BP operators failed to investigate or troubleshoot the cause of the alarms for months". The source for that seems to be this 2011 timeline from the Alaska Dispatch. I can find no mention of the Lisburne Field spill anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Can someone point me to where it is, or explain why it has not been included here? Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

The zdnet article is mentioned in the BP article. We know about it. Your facts seem to be wrong - Arturo did not rewrite the article. He has suggested content here on Talk, which editors here reviewed and worked over; some of the resulting content went into the article. Arturo never directly added content to the article. There are very extensive discussions of all this on this page and in the archives -- it is not reasonable that you should ask others to do your research for you. However I did a search in the "search archives" box above, which produced this: Talk:BP/Archive_11#Prudhoe_Bay - you will that the 2009 spill is mentioned there. Two editors wanted to add more detail about it to the article and it never got added (discussion on this page has been pretty brutal in the past). The content you suggest seems like very reasonable (to me) to include in this article and the main prudhoe bay article, if you want to stick around and advocate for that. For what it is worth, I suggest you argue for its inclusion on its own merits and leave the COI discussion out of it (or start yet another separate thread on the COI thing if you really want to talk about that) -- if you mix them, the discussion of the content you want to see added will be derailed and your goal will be less likely to be met.Jytdog (talk) 17:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I made no mention of COI (conflict of interest) by Arturo or anyone else. My question was about whether specific issues mentioned in the ZDNet article had been addressed. Your response seems unnecessarily hostile and flatly wrong. Arturo wrote the section in question, as I stated. Silver seren replaced the existing section with Arturo's rewritten section. The only comment on the talk page which mentions the Lisburne Field spill was added after that section had been replaced and after the ZDNet article had come out. It is from Arturo, who states " I believe this information should most probably not be added to the article". Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:08, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, the best thing would be for you to first review the Prudhoe Bay section of the latest archive--that will give you a good background, which I think is important. The short answer is no, it has not been added. In fact, when it comes to negative information I'd say the article is in worse shape than it was a few weeks ago since the Gulf spill section has been cut by about 2/3. Gandydancer (talk) 18:14, 11 April 2013 (UTC) BTW, be sure to note the dates as you read it because it is spread over some time. Gandydancer (talk) 18:16, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I read through that section before posting my question here. It was not enlightening. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:23, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, sorry :=) I read it too and I think I can clear something up. The well leaks that Arturo and I were talking about, if I remember correctly, were leaks in the insulation fluid in the wells, not in transposting pipes. I believe that about 50 were found to be leaking, out of 500 wells in the bay. I agreed with him that it need not be in the article. People think that every little incident is reported but they are not--hundreds of small spills happen all the time that are not considered newsworthy. It is the further information that Arturo did not share with us that is so concerning because he should have been aware of it since I had asked him a question about the follow-up. Can I answer any other questions? Gandydancer (talk) 18:37, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Carbuncle, I am sorry my response seemed hostile. You did write, (quoting you) "specific issues with the Prudhoe Bay 2006-2007 section of the article as rewritten by User:Arturo at BP." (emphasis added). That communicated to me that you thought that Arturo actually edited ("rewritten") the actual article. I am glad you know he did not. I am also glad that you reviewed all the Talk. But given that you lead with the zdnet story and arturo (which is all about COI), and given that Lisburne Field is indeed not mentioned in the article, and given that you ask why it is not mentioned (when it has not been discussed much in Talk at all, so it is obvious that nobody brought it up) ... I hope you see that it was reasonable for me to assume that you didn't review the history of the page and the extensive Talk that has gone on, and that you just really just wanted to complain about the COI thing without spending time to catch up or without intending to stick around and actually work. Which others have done, and which is tiresome to me. If your concern is simply that you think the Lisburne Field spill should be mentioned in this article, that is great. As for "other issues mentioned in the zdnet article"...it is great for "violet blue" to stand back and throw bombs; it is much harder to actually come work on the page and get things done, as editors here will tell you. This is a very contested page. As I wrote above, it is much more simple just to bring the issues/content that you want to address rather than all this baggage. Especially because, as you say, the baggage is not your point. So please do let us know if there is other content that you want to see. Thanks. btw I just added content on this spill here: Prudhoe_Bay_oil_spill#Consequences_and_subsequent_spills Jytdog (talk) 20:49, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Jytdog, I've reviewed the talk page archives at least as far back as Arturo's involvement. Contrary to what you suggest, there seems to be very little conflict here (given that BP is such a large and controversial company). There is virtually no discussion of Arturo's edits before they are copied into the article. I have no idea why you that it makes any difference whether Arturo placed his rewrites into the article himself or if someone else did it - he wrote those sections. You sound very defensive. I'm not looking to place blame here. I'm simply asking if anyone (possibly one of the frequent editors of this article) has acted on the specific deficiencies that were pointed out two weeks ago. Apparently the answer is no. Is that correct? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 21:42, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

(Nor have the deficiencies I pointed out regarding the Canadian oil sands - aka Tar sands - section been addressed, FWIW) petrarchan47tc 22:58, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Carbuncle. The answer is indeed no as far as I can tell. Jytdog (talk) 03:42, 12 April 2013 (UTC) Further response added later. If 1) you don't see conflict, and 2) if you believe that there is not discussion/editing of Arturo's comments before they are inserted, and if you believe that everything he proposed was inserted and still stands, you didn't spend much time reading the archives - you just swallowed Violet Blue's line. Pick something important to Violet Blue - like the environment. See here Talk:BP/Archive_9#Environmental_record_overview. 1) conflict? please note gandydancer's comment in particular ("Slim Virgin, the reason the environmental section may look a little ragged is that working on this article has been one of the most hellish experiences imaginable.") 2) see the fierce discussion there! 3) the proposed text as a lead paragraph for the "environmental record" section is not present in the article. Finally, I gotta say that this sentence really set me off: "I'm simply asking if anyone (possibly one of the frequent editors of this article) has acted on the specific deficiencies that were pointed out two weeks ago." This is not a "simple" question - it contains worlds. Volunteer editors at wikipedia do not have bosses (not Violet Blue, not other critics, and not you); the criticisms are just that - criticisms made by individuals - not objective "deficiences" that we are somehow obligated to cull into a list and carefully check off. (but if you want to do that, please do so) I really feel like you have judged that bad, dark things happened here - that you have accepted that as a fact, without spending a lot of time fact finding, and that judgementalness (for lack of a better word) is indeed making me defensive. More importantly, you seem unaware that editing on this page is hard. There are strong passions and starkly different visions, good faith visions, I would say, of what this page should contain. And in my eyes, each "side" is pretty disgusted with the other side, doesn't believe the other side acts in good faith, and also feels pretty hurt and frustrated that its vision - and hard and long efforts to realize that vision - is not acknowledged by the other side. And they have been at this for a long, long time. so there are scars, too. for violet blue - and you - to stand back and judge, without actually working here and seeing what it is like, without really carefully reading the archives, pretty much sucks to me. Just think about it. If everybody actually editing here agreed that the "deficiencies" were problems, don't you think they would indeed have been "acted on" already? As I have said, if you want to identify specific content that you, carbuncle, want to see changed or added, please tell us, as you did with Lisburne Field - which I acted on and will do more with; better yet roll up your sleeves and edit and prepare for WP:BRD. Jytdog (talk) 12:31, 12 April 2013 (UTC) (note - characterizations of "sides" by me is broad brush and crude and are very much my perception- i don't claim they are objectively true. And in any case there are individuals working here, not "sides", and individuals are just that - individuals - and applying labels to individuals fails. Jytdog (talk) 12:40, 12 April 2013 (UTC))

DC, I do note that you seemed unconvinced with my reply re the Prudhoe Bay updates and choose to ignore me. Never the less, I will continue to attempt conversation. You said that the archives conversations were not enlightening which makes me wonder how closely you read them. Regarding the Lisburne Field spill, please read the discussion again as you seem to misunderstand what is written. I don't see how you could have missed that the real problem with the article was/is not failure to mention that spill but the failure to mention the 2006 spill followup by the DOJ where they said, "BPXA paid a $25 million civil penalty, the largest per-barrel penalty at that time for an oil spill, and agreed to take measures to significantly improve inspection and maintenance of its pipeline infrastructure on the North Slope to reduce the threat of additional oil spills."

You also seemed confused about the talk page history of this article, saying to Jytdog, "Contrary to what you suggest, there seems to be very little conflict here (given that BP is such a large and controversial company)." Please see my comment from around mid-March:

Slim Virgin, the reason the environmental section may look a little ragged is that working on this article has been one of the most hellish experiences imaginable. It took many months to even get a mention of the Gulf oil spill into the lead. I think the efforts to attempt to make the article less than a glowing report of how environmentally concerned BP was started on about page #3 and just dragged on and on. If you've ever worked on an article where you just almost get afraid to touch it because you know that almost endless uproar will begin, that is what this article has been like.

I believe that the other editors that have worked this article would also say that it has been filled with conflict and difficulty because just as strongly as I believe that environmental issues need to be appropriately covered other editors have strong opinions on what is appropriate as well.

Since you seemed to have no problem telling Jytdog that he was sounding hostile and defensive, I'll mention that you seem, to me, to sound quite arrogant. After a life time of work experience I learned that the boss always says "you sound defensive" when their employees attempt to defend themselves. I learned and I never said it to any of the people that I worked with. IMO it is a play for power and irritating and frustrating to the person on the receiving end. Gandydancer (talk) 13:04, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Brilliant minds think alike...is that how it goes? :-) I agree with Jytdog and have to chuckle at how closely our feelings/thinking matches. Gandydancer (talk) 13:16, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

amazing sync! :) even down to quoting the same passage - that is SO crazy. Jytdog (talk) 13:47, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not clear why this discussion seems to be about me and not about the article, but let me clarify my statement about conflict. I had expected much more debate and conflict on the talk pages (compared to what I saw, and compared to articles on much less contentious companies). Having said that, and speaking as an outside observer, if it took months before there was any mention of the Gulf spill in the lead, there is something wrong here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

We responded to what you actually wrote. You came and asked a question about what we editors have been doing when you knew full well what we have been doing. You made this about us by the way you framed your question - we responded to that. I will say this again -- if there is specific content that you want to change, please talk about the specific content. It would be most welcome and would indeed focus the discussion on the content. This is what I have been trying to tell you from my very first response to you. By now, I suggest you start a new section, afresh, if you have actual content you want to discuss. Jytdog (talk) 01:02, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

• (ec).This is not directed at any specific editor---It is a general comment and observation. Let's all take a breathe, stay calm, and not talk nose to nose. Let us not return to the polarization that once existed here. Lets keep moving forward and not get irratated with each other. Clear consise communicating on ANY talk page is very difficult. Lets not alienate each other. We need to pull together not pull each other apart. Manners are the lubricant between faceless editors. ```Buster Seven Talk 13:22, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect Buster, it is sometimes good to speak "plainly" rather than let anger seethe. To tell me to not speak out is not helpful. I was feeling much more hostile to DC than I was willing to say in my post and was thankful that Jytdog added some of my further feelings regarding my experiences with this article and the big ZDNet blowup. I think that Jytdog did the right thing as well when he got some things off his chest. I'm really quite sick to death of having a whole busload of editors come here and complain or at least seem to be critical, with not one, other than you, to stay to help. Gandydancer (talk) 13:52, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

..

I hear what you guys are saying, but I also think that it's important that experienced editors that had not been involved in the article, like Delicious Carbunkle, be encouraged to contribute, both to the talk page and to the article itself. There is a dire need for more of that. DC is has been on Misplaced Pages forever, and I would really like him to get involved and for his perspective to help shape the article. Coretheapple (talk) 14:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

@Carbunkle. With all due respect, you seem to have no problem with a paid editors suggestions being placed directly into the article without any vetting or discussion. Some of the editors, myself included, have an essential problem with what might be referred to as editing by proxy. And that in no way means to bismirch the proxy. Right now there is a vibrant discussion revolving around various editing requests that Arturo made a few days ago. Only half of them have made it into the article. A new reference was needed for one. The other half are being discussed. I think this is the way Jimbo intentended for the COI process to shake out. ```Buster Seven Talk 21:00, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Buster, I may be missing something but my understanding was that DC was not in favor of paid editor stuff going into articles. Coretheapple (talk) 22:03, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that a discussion of paid editing here won't help improve the article and the issue is much larger than any single article or editor. Regardless of how I feel about paid editing or editing with a declared conflict of interest, I do not believe that the edits proposed by Arturo were given a thorough vetting. I believe that all of those sections should be reexamined in light of the issues pointed out in the ZDNet article. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Then vet them already! Re-examine away! And if you find actual content you wish to change or discuss or add, please be bold and edit it, or bring it to Talk to discuss it. As I said in my first comment, it is more likely that the conversation will be productive if you base your discussion of any such content on the merits or faults of the content itself, not on its source. If you do discuss its source, you should be prepared for the discussion to get completely derailed and go nowhere. Jytdog (talk) 01:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I started this discussion to ask a very reasonable question - have any of the specific issues pointed out in the ZDNet article been addessed? I used what I thought was the clearest and most obvious example, that of the Lisburne Field spill. The reason this discussion has not been about that one specific issue has been because you have derailed it, Jytdog. Not me. It appears that someone has already done some of the vetting for us and we can simply look at the specific issues noted and see if they need to be addressed. If it helps, I will start new sections to discuss each of them. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:05, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Great - if that is what you want to do, please do it already. If anybody wants to join you in that, that is great too. I am sorry that you cannot see that while your post was entirely reasonable to you (of course it was!), it was pretty ugly to me and Gandydancer. I hope things go better when you actually go to work. I really do - this discussion is not fun. Jytdog (talk) 04:24, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I didn't find anything ugly about it at all. I think you're a bit oversensitive when the elephant in the room, which is BP's participation in this talk page and the editing of this article, is raised. It is going to be, again and again, here and outside Misplaced Pages, so get used to it. Coretheapple (talk) 12:45, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

You miss my point - sorry I didn't make it more clear. If anybody wants to come here and do work, and review the content in the article that originated with suggestions from arturo here in Talk, that is wonderful. I would have no objection to that. What I objected to, was the whole frame, especially as it emerged in the to and fro -- the judgementalness that we who are here working voluntarily are somehow accountable to him and to zdnet. All the baggage laid down from on high. It is obvious if you carefully review Talk what was vetted and how - so the question was either lazy (asking us that we take our time to do his work for him) or it was fake (which it turned to be, as he had indeed reviewed Talk). I've said many times that coming here and working is totally welcome. If he would have just said, "There is no content about Lisburne Field anywhere in Misplaced Pages and I think it is important. Can somebody add that here?" Or even better: "There is no content about Lisburne Field anywhere in Misplaced Pages. Here is proposed content for this article with sourcing: xxxxxxxxx" or even better, just be bold and add the content he wanted to the article. Or on the broader issue of content he thinks may be "tainted" - "Here is a passage from the current article: xxxx. I would like to change it to read: yyyyyyy." Would have had no problem with any of that -- anything focused on the actual content of the article. See what I mean? Jytdog (talk) 15:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I do, but I think that your response was unecessarily hostile, considering where this particular editor seems to be "coming from," which is concern (that I share) raised by that ZDnet article, which is what prompted my interest in this article as well. You also need to understand that this article involves a complicated subject and that it takes quite some time to get one's arms around it. Suffice to say that the more I learn about BP and the closer I look at this article the more concerned I become about how this article has been shaped. Coretheapple (talk) 12:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I have complained about paid editors for years. They should not be writing their own articles. And even if they do not directly put their wording into the articles, all they need is a group of corporate advocates to travel around and do it for them, as happened here. Gandydancer (talk) 13:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly. Coretheapple (talk) 00:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Core. I seem to have mis-read. ```Buster Seven Talk 23:35, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

You know the volume of these posts, cumulatively, is such that it's easy to misinterpret. Coretheapple (talk) 00:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

DC has asked if the "specific deficiencies" brought out in the ZDNet article of March 27 have been addressed. He has specifically asked about the Lisburne Field spill of Nov 2009 that spilled 13,500 gallons that was mentioned in the Alaska news timeline published in Nov 2011 and used as a ref for the ZDNet article. What ZDNet does not seem to understand (and perhaps some editors here as well) is that this article is about BP, not every "little" oil spill that they are responsible for. This spill would have only been significant if they had lost their case, but they did not. For comparison, have a look at this chart that shows just one month of spills around the world. . DC, does this address your question re the Lisburne field question? To move forward perhaps you can make a list of the other concerns that you believe need to be addressed. Thanks! Gandydancer (talk) 05:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Hey Gandydancer -- Thanks for providing the reason why you never added content about Lisburne Field -and your judgement that such content doesn't belong in this article (I agree, btw). I would answer CD's question directly this way -- If you search the archives (which you could do yourself), you will see that adding content about Lisburne Field has never been the direct subject of discussion in Talk, and that it was brought up once in the context of a discussion about the 2006 spill. So there is no answer to your question with respect to the public discussion of the editing community - it was just never brought up. If you think such content should be added, please say so and why, or add it, and let's see what happens. Jytdog (talk) 15:33, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree Jytdog. I've gone through the ZDNet article and I really can't answer to DC's request if he will not be more specific than to ask if we've answered her "specific deficiencies" because for the most part her "deficiencies" aren't. She sees problems where there aren't any and misses the big problem, the civil suit that resulted in the $25 million fine. Actually I thought her article was just a "gotcha" piece but we are lucky that it didn't catch on any further than Huff Post and a New Orleans local paper. People just love to feel superior and talk about how bad Misplaced Pages is. Of course it never occurred to them to edit when it's so much easier to just bitch. Weirdly, it seems to be totally missed that I was the one to bring up the Prudhoe bay section difficulties (on March 25--two days before her article came out), she was not the one to point them out. She picked up on it from reading my posts. I do believe that all in all Misplaced Pages does do a pretty good job of policing itself, though it sometimes seems to take about a million pages of frustration. Speaking of how bad it is (just kidding--I love Misplaced Pages), the Prudhoe Bay article really is just awful. I was going to try and work on it and gave up because it needs to be completely revamped. I know you are good at that. Perhaps when CD is done with his questions we can work on it? Gandydancer (talk) 19:47, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I hear you, across the board. People love their drama. I'll have a look at Prudhoe today. Jytdog (talk) 20:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

OK. We have both repeatedly offered to help DC but he seems to be determined to conduct his own research. I think that we should wait for that and then we can perhaps benefit from what he comes up with. Perhaps he can find more than the civil suit that I mentioned that should be in the article. New help is certainly appreciated. Gandydancer (talk) 11:31, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

In any other article I would simply add a sentence about the Lisburne Field spill to the Prudhoe Bay section, but I think I know what the result here would be. I could point out that a much smaller methanol/oil/water spill was already included in that section written by Arturo, but I'm sure that someone would argue with that, at great and pointless length. Frankly, I don't have the time to deal with the obstacles that are being put up here, so I will leave you to yourselves. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:46, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Bye, I guess. btw at 20:49, 11 April 2013 (UTC) (my 2nd response to you) I wrote: "btw I just added content on this spill here: Prudhoe_Bay_oil_spill#Consequences_and_subsequent_spills " That content has not been reverted or further edited. Jytdog (talk) 15:47, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

He said in parting "Good work, shills. Good luck, everyone else.". Is he calling Jtydog and I shills? A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing he has a close relationship with the person or organization. Gandydancer (talk) 15:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, good addition--I don't think that there is any question but that it belongs there. But what about here? Are 321 barrels enough to report here on the BP article page? It seems to me that if we drop the bar down to 321 barrels for BP's article we would need to do the same for the other petrol corporations as well. Is that doable? Reasonable? Gandydancer (talk) 16:21, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

again we had a sync in response to that parting shot. :) geez louise. Anyway, about whether to include Lisburne in this article. In the edit I made to Prudhoe, I gave it its proper connection to the 2006 spill- namely, the gov't tried to use it to revoke the probation over the 2006 spill. As to whether to include it here, as per the section I introduced this morning, editors are really divided over the weight thing, and to be honest I am up in the air over it too. I think for now, let's leave it out. Let's finish working on the Prudhoe Spill article and then come up with a good summary of it, to include here... we can see then if the Lisburne Field spill fits. Is that OK? btw I am ignorant about oil in Alaska, so I actually backed way out and looked at (and ended up learning more about, and editing) the Alaska North Slope article, then the National Petroleum Reserve–Alaska article, and now the Prudhoe Bay Oil Field article. Once I am grounded in the context I will start working on the Prudhoe spill article... I have been looking for a good map of the Prudhoe field to add to the Prudhoe Bay Oil Field article.. I am still not oriented as to what is physically there so it is hard for me to think sensibly about the spill per se. Jytdog (talk) 17:46, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

when i say "map of the prudhoe field" i mean the details within it. And also, one that is usable on wikipedia. The govt of Alaska leases it, and state government documents are not copyright-free... just had an idea, I will ask Arturo for one! yay. Jytdog (talk) 18:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, nobody could be dumber than I am about oil. I only got hooked in here because I had worked on the spill article and months later I happened to look at this article and wondered why it wasn't even mentioned in the lead. As for the Prudhoe Bay section, it (at that time) was really confusing and I tried to edit it to make more sense, so I did have a history with it when Arturo did his rewrite. My big mistake was to look at only what he had in his rewrite, but it does bring out a big problem with paid editing. Everybody should learn from my mistake--though of course I never thought that I'd be the only one to review his work! But for the most part I don't really enjoy my learning about BP/oil--I just do it because I have to. So due to lack of real interest, I really don't retain it very well. My background is science and I love to learn new science-related stuff and I retain it very well too. Well, blah, blah, blah. Yes, I like your ideas--sounds like a plan to me! You may have noted that I posted some gov't sites at the article. There are more at the DOJ--I know because I had them at one time but seem to have lost my link to them. Gandydancer (talk) 18:25, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

What's going on here?

This section is dramatically larger than any of the sections reviewing the drafts written by a BP employee. I asked a simple question. The answer appears to be equally simple - no, those issues have not been addressed. I'm not bothered by the suggestions that I should do it rather than ask about it, but obviously I wanted to know where things stood before getting involved in a topic with which I have little experience. I'm not sure what the problem is here, but if this level of unproductive discussion unrelated to the specific issues is the norm here, something needs to be done. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I haven't participated in this discussion in any meaningful way because I feel that there is a far more important issue that hasn't even been mentioned: the Clean Water Act trial, which can saddle BP with another $20 billion in liability. See below. I think Violet Blue should be commended for her article. It was fair and even-handed, and it's unfortunate that she has been vilified as she has by Wales and others. However, she did not mention that the trial wasn't in the article, and that's a major omission from both her assessment as well as this article of course. Coretheapple (talk) 16:40, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

In the words of my father: "Fish....or chop bait". Also, the most recent Arturo requests ARE being handled. And in a way that is different than how they were handled in the past. I can't speak for the past (prior to 2 weeks ago). The past is the past. ```Buster Seven Talk 19:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I think that it is important for the independent editors of this article to independently update this article, and to focus on what is important. Far more important than anything that BP, through its rep here, has requested be updated is the fact that there was an $8 billion share buyback last month that surprised analysts and failed to elevate the share price. This is far more significant than anything that BP has requested be updated. We need to focus on what is important, and apportion our limited time and energies accordingly. This is not to say that BP's requests should be ignored, but simply that they need to be prioritized. Updating the number of gas stations and other numbers, for instance, is not as important as the share buyback or the fact that BP faces $20 billion in penalties in its ongoing trial. Coretheapple (talk) 21:29, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

@Coretheapple. What each of us do to this article is important. Are my efforts to wisely integrate Arturo's requests getting in your way? You say they should be prioritized. Well, they are prioritized. I am taking care of them, with due dilegence, while you confront buy-back and a $20 billion (or more) fine. This nit-picking and un-mannerly concern with how I spend my time on this article is a presumption. I think a working relationship with Arturo is very important to the future of this article and this talk page. I don't have the time or the desire to involve myself in every new turn of events that the next thread will bring. My continuing effort is to bring and maintain an editorial balance to these pages. I think wisely questioning, investigating, discussing and then, if agreed upon, integrating corporate suggestions into the article serves a very important service for this article and for future paid advocacy editing at Misplaced Pages. If we can create a positive example of how editors work out the problem of paid editing, Misplaced Pages gains. I might even say that my attempt to work with a paid-to-edit editor is more important, for all of Misplaced Pages, than your "BP article" push regarding the ongoing trial. But, I won't even think of attempting to stop you or criticize you. But that's just me. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:49, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I just responded myself to a request by the BP rep here and requested the BP provide a reliable source for what I think is an important factoid. He has yet to do so, but I guess that's because it's the weekend. In general, I think that far too much energy is devoted to responding to requests from the BP Corporate PR Department to update routine data that is not accurate but, at worst, stale, when we're not even telling readers that BP is in effect on trial for its life. Coretheapple (talk) 11:19, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

One other problem I see is that we all have been, myself included, lulled into thinking that the presence of a BP Corporate Rep in residence here is a kind of guarantee that if there is a major issue with noncontroversial text then it would be pointed out. That is not so. The list of institutional investors is problematic, for example. Coretheapple (talk) 11:43, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Again, right on the nose, Core.

Buyback of shares

The following discussion about shares buyback was a response to this comment. Beagel (talk) 14:00, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Buyback of shares is nothing extraordinary and it is quite usual practise of corporations. Calling this "far more important than anything that BP" is an exaggeration. I don't think that taking account the whole business of BP this is really important. In addition, WP:RECENT and WP:Not News should be taken into account. Beagel (talk) 21:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

No I don't think anyone can possibly argue with a straight face that an $8 billion buyback, one that took analysts by surprise, is not worth the brief mention that it clearly warrants and is now getting in an article that otherwise reads as if it was an appendage to the BP annual report. Coretheapple (talk) 01:40, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Surprising–maybe yes, unusual or extraordinary–no. Corporation buy their shares back all the time. If you read this article you see that after notwithstanding the word "surprised" in the second paragraph, experts find this move quite logical as attempt to rise the share price (shares buyback is used as an alternative for paying dividends) and as a way to invest they received from selling TNK-BP. $8 billion is a lot of money for common people but taking account that BP got $12.48 billion in cash from selling its stake in TNK-BP (in addition to Rosneft's shares) or that the market cap of BP is around $132 billion at the moment, 8 billions per one and half year is not so much. Beagel (talk) 07:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and it failed to budge the share price, which is why it was newsworthy everywhere but in Misplaced Pages. It concerns me that our time is so consumed with responding to inquiries from BP Corporate PR that we are neglecting important corporate news events that the company does not feel it worthwhile to publicize in Misplaced Pages. Coretheapple (talk) 11:10, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

@ Coretheapple. What concerns me is that you are so consumed with important corporate news events that you don't even realize when you insult and demoralize an editor that is on your side. Maybe this is why you and gandy wind up alone. Your inconsiderate comments drive supporters away. You should just worry about yourself. Don't worry about what I'm doing. Whatever I do is for the good of the article. I'd like an apology but I probably won't get one since you pretty much ignored everything I said at 7:49. ```Buster Seven Talk 12:37, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I ignored everything you said at 7:49, and I'm going to ignore what you said at 12:37. Please stop putting words in my mouth and taking offense at things I didn't say. Coretheapple (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Oil spill trial

There needs to be a section on the Gulf oil spill trial now underway. It may be lost somewhere in the verbiage of this article, filled as it is with routine corporate material about stock issuances and underplaying the company's record of environmental disasters, but I am not seeing it. This trial is just warming up and will be the main reason people come to this article, as I am sure that the BP article will be linked from Google News. At this point I think the absence of a section on that trial is the article's main deficiency. Yes, I know Misplaced Pages is "not news," but its articles on controversial companies, of which BP is the most prominent, need to give proper emphasis to the controversies and this article does not. Coretheapple (talk) 14:04, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

This may be a good site for updates: Gandydancer (talk) 14:14, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

It is, thanks. Coretheapple (talk) 15:00, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I am fully agree that the summary of the court decision and findings should be added here (about BP) and in the relevant DWH articles. However, I don't see how it could be done here when the process is ongoing. The trial to determine the liability of BP, Transocean, Halliburton, and other companies, started on 25 February and it is still going on. The second phase scheduled in September 2013 will focus on the flow rate of the oil and the third phase scheduled in August 2014 will consider damages. There are hundreds of witnesses and thousands of pages testimonies. I just don't see how to make an objective decision what to add and what not do add before the court decision. E.g. expert witness by prosecution Alan Huffman accused BP of deviating from industry standards, expert witness by BP Adam Bourgoyne Jr. disagreed with this stating that "I even noted that they were taking extreme care to follow all the safety procedures with respect to reporting little minor things that happened, like washers falling out of derricks." and disagreed a lot of other conclusions. I really don't see how to put all this in this article. Therefore, lets wait the court decision. Beagel (talk) 09:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. The trial is majorly significant to BP and needs to be added, and its absence is a major deficiency from an NPOV standpoint. Coretheapple (talk) 12:37, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear: I'm not seeking "approval" of such an obvious addition on the talk page. That is not how Misplaced Pages works, even if that is how the editing culture of this article has been distorted. However, I was hoping that someone with a greater technical background than myself might add this. If no one comes forward, I will. Coretheapple (talk) 12:41, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Information about trials were copied from Deepwater Horizon oil spill. Beagel (talk) 13:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I can see that the problem lies in the oil spill article, which has not described the trial in an up-to-date manner and has given the trial amazingly short shrift. Rather than carry over that problem to this article, it needs to be fixed in both. Coretheapple (talk) 13:32, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Core, what sort of information were you thinking of adding? I did add a paragraph to the DWH explosion section when it still existed and suggested it needed further info rather than just let it hang in the air, but Beagle suggested we wait for the trial to end and that seemed reasonable to me. However even that has been removed now that (to my extreme dissatisfaction) Jtydog edited the new combined spill and explosion sections, cutting them drastically, saying that the article as a whole was too long. Gandydancer (talk) 13:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I think that we need to bring readers up to speed on what is happening in the trial, as reported in reliable sources. According to the Wall Street Journal, in an article that is cited in the oil spill article and needs to be added here, there has been talk of a $16 billion settlement. So obviously this is not a nickles and dimes affair. We need to know who the plaintiffs and defendants are, as it is more than BP, and a sense of the testimony from both sides. BP just began presenting its case. Mind you, we don't have to report every turn of the screw. As for the supposed "size" problem of this article, I couldn't disagree more, and I notice that the edits that have taken place over the past couple of weeks have not made this article smaller. Again, concerning this trial, the same problem exists in the oil spill article. I haven't even looked at the articles of the other defendants. It seems strange that this major trial is underway, billions of dollars are at stake, and we just get a few sparse sentences as if space is at a premium and this is just a minor thing that doesn't require much of a mention. It should be mentioned in the lead section too. Coretheapple (talk) 14:01, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I've been looking around for a good recap article. Here is one: and I am looking for more. Coretheapple (talk) 14:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Haha, it sounds like a good movie. It opens with Brad Pitt's dramatic ocean rescue in the dark oiled waters with flames in the background and then he is sequestered in the hotel room in New Orleans where his girlfriend Julia Roberts is screaming at the guards as she frantically attempts to make it past their barricade... Gandydancer (talk) 15:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

The trial deserves its own article, and that would also be the most practical approach as it saves lots of duplication in the articles for each of the parties. Rangoon11 (talk) 14:44, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

It may, but it also requires significant, prominent discussion within this article, given the immense potential civil liability for BP and the hard line the DOJ has been taken. I am flabbergasted that the DOJ's stance had not been mentioned in either this article or the oil spill article. What is going on here? Coretheapple (talk) 14:47, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Correction - DOJ took that position in papers filed in the settlement litigation, so I moved it to that section. Coretheapple (talk) 14:54, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but I removed the separate section as WP:UNDUE. This article is not about the oil spill and stating what DOJ says before trial or speculation about potential fines is WP:UNDUE in this article here. Lets wait the court ruling and we have exact information who is guilty in what and who has to pay how much. Beagel (talk) 15:11, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm reinstating. You removed not just the section header but also some important facts concerning the case, specifically the fact that BP faces potentially enormous liability. It is "undue emphasis" not to include this extremely important information. Coretheapple (talk) 15:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Including this section seems reasonable to me. Gandydancer (talk) 15:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and I said why this does not belong here. Beagel (talk) 15:19, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I've only just begun examining the reliable sources covering the trial, and my amazement grows that this has not only not been a separate section, but until I raised the issue not even mentioned. According to Fortune, a finding of gross negligence means BP would have to pay $20 billion in additional penalties under the Clean Water Act. And you say this has no relevancy to BP? Are you serious? Coretheapple (talk) 15:28, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for adding this content! I think it is overblown to make it, its own section, so I got deleted the section break. Also the 2nd paragraph repeated the fact that gross negligence and resulting increased penalties are at stake (but giving a dollar figure than the "four fold" that was already there in the 1st paragraph) so I combined the sentences and carried the ref up. The sentence in the 2nd paragraph about strategy and risks, is one of thousands of comments in the media that could be discussed and quoted -- unclear why any one of them should be included, much less this one. And there should not be detail in this "head article" that is not in the section on the trial in article on Deepwater Horizon litigation, where detail and - to the extent it is merited - blow by blow should go, IMO. So I deleted that sentence. But thank you for adding this content -- it does need to be referenced in this article as the stakes for BP are high. Jytdog (talk) 16:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

The stakes are so high, so mind-blowing, that I feel very strongly that a separate section is warranted. This is like an article about OJ Simpson without a separate section on his murder trial, and just a few paragraphs under "Controversies." This section also will require expansion - nothing major, just another paragraph or two - as the trial progresses. Right now the coverage of the trial in this article, as well as the other articles of course, is not adequate. I won't know just how inadequate until I've examined the sources in greater detail. Coretheapple (talk) 16:11, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree that blow by blow belongs here. Decisions for each phase should be stated though. Let's keep blow by blow in the Deepwater_Horizon_litigation#Trial_on_civil_charges section, and when and if that blows up to the point that it needs to be split off into its own article (as per Rangoon's comment above) that would be the time to do that. There should be no detail and no source here, that is not there - we have to keep this organized for the reader.Jytdog (talk) 16:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

No, not "blow by blow," but enough to give the reader a sense of the major developments in the trial, and what is at stake. The absence of the reference to a potential $20 billion in liability is one major aspect. There may be more. Let's not prejudge. Let's see what is out there. Coretheapple (talk) 16:27, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

separate section or no? Core and Gandy vote yes. Beagel and I vote no... Jytdog (talk) 16:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I thought these things weren't "votes"? Besides, what is the hurry? If necessary we can get an article RfC going. First let's see what is in the sourcing out there, let's see what has actually been happening in the trial, before you firmly decide you don't want a section. Remember that until recently there was sentiment, which was apparently enforced, for there to be not even a mention of this trial. Coretheapple (talk) 16:27, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

"NPOV" tag on section

There's a drive-by "NPOV" tag placed on the section. If there is no effort made to justify this tag, if all we have is an assertion that it is "undue" without further explanation or justification, this won't be a bona fide NPOV dispute as best as I can determine, and the NPOV tag will be removed. Coretheapple (talk) 20:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

It was explained several times but your reaction was to call the explanation "ridiculous". Not only me but some other editors have expressed their opinion that this section does not belong here. Beagel (talk) 21:35, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

No, you haven't explained even once how it is undue emphasis to have a separate section on a trial in which the Justice Department is seeking maximum penalties from BP, after criminal proceedings on the same issue in which the company pleaded guilty. $20 billion in penalties is sought. How is a section on that trial "undue emphasis"? Just to remind you, your previous position just a few hours ago was that there shouldn't be one word on this trial in the article, that you "don't see how it could be done here when the process is ongoing." That was indeed ridiculous. It is all over the media, and has been reported in every newspaper and wire service in the country. Now Misplaced Pages is like everybody else and is reporting the reality of that lawsuit trial. Now you're saying it's "undue emphasis" to have a separate section. Why? Coretheapple (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Once more, by points:

• This article IS NOT the main article for the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. There are several relevant articles, linked also from this page. There is a summarised section here regarding aspects of that event related to BP. Having TWO sections about this event gives undue weight. It is important (and just for a record – it was me who added mentioning of DWH in the lead) but taking account the company as whole, it does not justify to have two sections.
• Being all over the media is not an argument. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia not online news service and this is a fundamental difference (therefore, the concern about Google News is irrelevant). WP:RECENT and WP:Not News are relevant here. Speculations what would be penalties if charged may be relevant in the specific article but in this article let have information about the court ruling and not about speculations.

Your claim that my position was that "there shouldn't be one word on this trial in the article" is misinterpretation (I hope not intentional). If you read my post you see that it was about covering what's going on on trial (and yes, as I mentioned above–speculations). Again, it was me who added fact about the trial and its stages. Beagel (talk) 22:25, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Your position was very clear. You said "let's wait until the court decision." Your entire post is directly above, so there can be no misunderstanding.

This section is about today's BP and the fault-finding taking place through the court system, with potential liability running into the billions as well as a final adjudication as to fault. That process is a seminal event for the company and yes, the fact that it is all over the media is an indication of the importance that it attached to it in every publication in the world except, until I raised the issue, Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper but it is supposed to reflect reality, and the reality is that BP's reputation and many billions of dollars hangs in the balance. We have now "broken the silence" as it were about the BP trial, so let's not continue the shameful practice for many months and now bury it in the DWH section, but break it out into a separate section where it manifestly and I think self-evidently belongs. Coretheapple (talk) 01:35, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Happy for your enthusiasm Core, but as I wrote above, 1) this should not have its own section, and 2) detail should go in the litigation article, specifically in the section on this litigation that already existed there -- Deepwater_Horizon_litigation#Trial_on_civil_charges. There should be no detail and no source here, that is not there - we have to keep this organized for the reader. Also, you should not be surprised that the section was tagged, as both Beagel and i expressed unhappiness with the section - it was not "drive by." This article is about BP, and yes the trial should definitely be mentioned as there is a lot at stake. But not so much detail here. You have complained in the past that people rushed ahead with changes.... now you are doing it! Anyway, I am happy for the content generation, but my druthers would be, once this surge is spent, to take this new detail and put in the litigation section, and leave only high level stuff here - pretty much just your original post, after i edited it to 2 paragraphs. Too much detail here. UNDUE-ish. Jytdog (talk) 01:49, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree that more details need to go into the Deep Water Horizon litigation article. A lot more. However, what's in this article so far strikes me as reasonable. There has been a bad habit in this article to "outsource" so to speak unflattering information to other, low-readership articles, with the effect of giving short shrift to those aspects in this article. While I appreciate your enthusiasm for the addition of the trial information to this article, nevertheless it disturbs me that previous efforts to place that information in that article were made (I believe) and were rebuffed. Two months into the trial, we now have that information in a fashion that is most digestible to readers. I think that what we have in that section now is balanced, and provides really the most bare-bones detail. You call it "undue" but what information is contained in that section that should not be there? That is what the undue tag says. Coretheapple (talk) 01:58, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I understand that you want a lot of detail about this. I do. If you look at how long DWH + this new content it, is just about as long as the entire section on BP's operations. Its longer than the whole corporate affairs section. Please don't assume bad faith. Content gets split off not to "bury" things - content gets split off in the normal, daily-grindy course of wikipedia article generation because otherwise articles become too big and lose their balance. Right? This is the head BP article -- it's gotta cover everything. And there is still a lot of factual information that needs to go in here -- as Rangoon has pointed out many times, the description of BP's operations is still woefully thin - not even close to covering everything BP is doing worldwide. I love it that you are generating content. And it is natural that you want the issues you care about to discussed in great detail in the topmost article. But no other section has the kind of color and quotes you are bringing here. Think about it this way -- folks who are more focused on the corporate content have not put in glowing quotes saying how great BP is. Have they? They are aiming for an even-keeled article that describes the company and its businesses, factually and neutrally. Even outlines that Arturo provided a long time ago left sections for environment and industrial accidents. Those are part of the facts. But having this in its own section, and these quotes you put in about the US govt trying to claim that BP is grossly negligent and BP saying it was not (which are duplicated now, btw, between the two sections - already we are having problems with having a separate section) -- this is unnecessary color that doesn't add any information. Content along the lines of what was there originally, "The plaintiffs are seeking a finding of gross negligence, which would result in a four-fold increase in the fines BP would have to pay for violating the federal Clean Water Act, and would leave the company liable for punitive damages for private claims." is pretty much all that is needed to convey the key information, which is pretty much all there is room for in this article. Jytdog (talk) 06:00, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting that it is "undue" to state that the trial is over a potential $20 billion in additional liability? We're talking three paragraphs about a trial that is going to drag on through 2014 and make headlines all the way, and you're making it seem as if it is as long as Gone With the Wind. Perhaps you could list here, since the amount of text is so short, the extraneous information currently in that section. Coretheapple (talk) 12:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

To make your job easier in addressing that point, here is the language in the "undue" tag: "An editor has expressed a concern that this section lends undue weight to certain ideas relative to the article as a whole."

Below is the text of the section. Please let me know what words in the following three paragraphs "lends undue weight to certain ideas relative to the article as a whole."

(begin copied text)

BP, Transocean and Halliburton went on trial on 25 February 2013 in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana in New Orleans to determine payouts and fines under the Clean Water Act and the Natural Resources Damage Assessment. The plaintiffs included the U.S. Justice Department, Gulf states and private individuals.

The Justice Department is seeking the stiffest fines possible, and has said it will seek to prove that that BP "was grossly negligent and engaged in willful misconduct in causing the oil spill." BP has denied that, saying that gross negligence is a high bar that cannot be surmounted, and that the oil spill was a "tragic accident." A finding of gross negligence would result in a four-fold increase in the fines BP would have to pay for violating the federal Clean Water Act, which could amount to $20 billion, and would leave the company liable for punitive damages for private claims that weren’t part of a $8.5 billion settlement the company reached with most private party plaintiffs in 2012.

The trial's first phase is to determine the liability of BP, Transocean, Halliburton, and other companies, and if they acted with gross negligence and wilful misconduct. The second phase scheduled in September 2013 will focus on the flow rate of the oil and the third phase scheduled in 2014 will consider damages.

(end copied text)

Well? Coretheapple (talk) 02:32, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry, but as I noted, the 2nd paragraph duplicates almost word for word the 2nd paragraph in the DWH section. And as I noted above, the quotes are already overkill (much less having them twice...) I know you worked all ablaze today -- hopefully tomorrow things will not seem like such a dire battle. Jytdog (talk) 06:03, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Now that the duplicative language has been removed, please explain in what way does this section "lend undue weight to certain ideas relative to the article as a whole"? Coretheapple (talk) 11:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I gave my reasoning above, right above where you said "to make you job easier..." -would you please respond to that? Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 15:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I have, and if you'll read my answer you still haven't explained what in those three bare paragraphs gives undue weight. Is it that the maximum penalties being sought by the Justice Dept. could come to $20 billion? As for it being a separate section, not long ago you reverted me when I removed a separate section on Misplaced Pages controversy. How can you suggest that a multi-year trial on such a crucial issue does not warrant a separate section, when you felt that the Misplaced Pages controversy warranted a separate section? Coretheapple (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect information

The first sentence of this section states:

BP and its partners in the Deepwater Horizon oil well, Transocean and Halliburton, went on trial on 25 February 2013 in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana in New Orleans to determine payouts and fines under the Clean Water Act and the Natural Resources Damage Assessment.

This is factually incorrect. BP, Transocean and Halliburton were not partner on the well, and Deepwater Horizon was a drilling rig, not the well (well was Macondo). Partner for the BP operated Macondo Prospect lease were BP, MOEX Offshore 2007, and Anadarko Petroleum Corporation. Transocean and Halliburton were contactors—Transocean was owner of the Deepwater Horizon rig, Halliburton was contractor for the well cementing job. In addition to these companies, also Cameron International, a manufacturer of the blowout preventer, and M-I LLC, a subsidiary of Schlumberger providing drilling fluid, went on the trial but as of today, claims against these companies are dismissed. Beagel (talk) 22:43, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Fixed. Coretheapple (talk) 23:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I have reduced the anti-BP bias in the text and absorbed into the section above. Tthis, I think, justifies removal of the POV tag. This is quite obviously part of DWH spill section and should not have a section of its own.

It is interesting to note that there is no similar section in the Transocean and Halliburton articles. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:05, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Production volume for 2012

Forbes has published the 2012 working interest production volumes calculations by Wood Mackenzie, reflecting oil plus the energy equivalent in natural gas. According to this, in 2012 BP was the sixth largest oil and gas company in the world by 4.1 million barrels per day. I think this is important information to be added; however, it does not correspond to the information currently in the article. Maybe Arturo can help to clarify this? Beagel (talk) 08:08, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

To be honest, I have no idea where they got that number. The production number in the article now is correct and it does reflect our net production of liquids (which includes oil) plus the energy equivalent of natural gas if you include TNK-BP Production which, I believe, Rangoon11 added in. It's what we have in our Annual Report. Arturo at BP (talk) 13:35, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Institutional stock holdings

I have strong doubts about the validity of the list of institutional stockholders in this company, and lean toward removal/reconfiguration of the list as misleading. We were saying that the list was current, up to date as of April 2013, when that just wasn't so. First of all, the list is skewed by differing reporting dates. The source list plainly indicates that the dates of the stockholdings were either February of March, which corresponds to when such information was last disclosed to British regulators. In light of the varied dates, and the fact that the company has suffered sharp share price declines, which could be indicative of massive stock dumping by institutions, and has instituted an $8 billion share buyback, it seems to me that this list is just not based on sufficiently solid information so as to warrant inclusion. We just don't know if the numbers are even approximately correct or represent a current rank order of the top institutional investors.

Frankly, even if it was accurate, I question whether we need such a list. I think it might be better to write a paragraph describing the top investors as of a few months ago, and not publish a list as a list per se, given its limitations. Coretheapple (talk) 11:39, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

The information is very useful to readers, is encyclopedic and is impeccably sourced. The other comments above are specious; BP has not suffered large share price falls recently, and the date presentation is good enough for the Financial Times.Rangoon11 (talk) 13:57, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Now that you mention it I misinterpreted the Bloomberg piece, which talked about a 30% decline in share prices since the spill, not in recent months. Apart from that, my concerns remain. Coretheapple (talk) 14:24, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Coretheapple, could you please clarify what you mean by "the company has suffered sharp share price declines"? Exactly when and how much? As of 12 April 2013, the closing price of BP's share at the NYSE was 41.57. Yes, it lower than before the spill as on 19 April 2010 the closing price was 59.48 (adjusted closing price 53.11). However, it is higher than in summer 2010. The last dividends pay was on 13 February and on that day the closing price was 42.45. Between 13 February and 12 April the highest closing price has been 42.35 and the lowest price has been 40.19. So please explain where you see "sharp price declines"? And please provide any RS saying that due to "sharp price declines" there is a "massive stock dumping by institutions" and that this "has instituted an $8 billion share buyback" (although all RS referring to the buyback have made very different conclusions? Since the last dividends payment the daily traded amount of shares at the NYSE have been between 4,187,600 and 13,260,200 which is again absolutely normal. All the NYSE information is publicly available online, so based on what you made these wild guesses? Beagel (talk) 14:32, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

See my comment immediately before yours. The stock dumping would have taken place before the stock holding reports in Feb-March, so that's not a concern, but my other concerns remain. Coretheapple (talk) 14:34, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Could you please clarify which concerns and based on what sources? Thank you. Beagel (talk) 14:44, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm concerned that we're giving precise holdings percentages, going out to two decimal places, based upon varied reporting dates and data that is inherently one-two months old. While my concern is a lot less after it sunk in that the share price declines haven't been recent (and admittedly I should have checked that first), I don't see why the same information can't be conveyed as a paragraph of text and not a list. Only one holder has more than 5%, and all are, I believe, passive investors. Coretheapple (talk)

If this information is invalid why do outlets of the reputation of the Financial Times concern themselves with it? And why do they choose to present it in a list format rather than prose?Rangoon11 (talk) 14:57, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I realize that holdings lists are ubiquitous. It's not invalid as currently presented, with the reporting date of the specific holdings disclosed. But I think that the list borders on trivial, considering the small percentages of ownership of even the largest of the institutions, and don't require a list consuming that much space. One might even call it "undue." Coretheapple (talk) 15:04, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Big picture question

One of the key themes of the ongoing battles here, is the question of weight. Now that I have been here a while, and seen what it is like to edit here, and have read the entire archive of Talk (which I finally finished last night), it is clear to me that one of the ongoing points of contention is weight. In my eyes, the folks who want to add more content on environmental issues - especially about the bad ten year run that BP had in the US, believe that stuff is really important and deserves extended discussion - a lot of weight, in good faith. Folks who are focused on BP as a business, believe this article should be focused on just that -- BP as a business - what does it do, how and where does it make money, etc., - again, in good faith. And I imagine that before the page was semi-protected, there were a lot of drive-by edits from IP addresses that added hyper-negative content about BP being an evil monster. (I have not gone through the History of the article, blow by blow yet - just a guess). A bit further on this - in general, content that environmental-oriented editors have wanted to add, is often (not always) "colorful" - quotes with strong language, that sort of thing. In contrast, edits that the business-oriented folks have added is generally colorless - extremely neutral; very fact-oriented; almost no quotes. 2nd to last point; I have not seen the environmentalist-editors ever revert content added by the business folks to the business-y sections, on the grounds of undue weight, but content added by environmentally oriented editors often gets straight-up deleted (less, now). Last point: a lot of the discussion on Talk about proposed environmental content seems to me to come from a concern from business oriented editors about - "where is this going? if we let this in, how much more will there be?"

So I want to ask everybody 2 questions... everybody is free to ignore this of course --1) Apportionment: if you could sit by yourself and write this article so that it was the perfect expression of your vision of a complete, Featured Article that is the main article about BP worldwide in wikipedia, how much space (by percentage) would you give the Industrial Accidents in the US in the 2000's and their consequences? And how would you apportion space within that content (by percentage)? 2) Color: how much colorful language should this article have, overall? Should we have more quotes everywhere - for example in the business side, commenting on things like (for example only) the boldness and speed of their transformation from a being a moribund remnant of british imperialism to a lean, powerful competitor on the global stage? (which I am sure there is endless commentary on); or should we use color commentary rarely to never? If so, when?

If everybody has a chance to articulate his or her vision, not in the context of arguing against something, but making a nonargumentative, positive statement about what should be, maybe we can then have a conversation to try to reach agreement, and maybe that could relieve some of the tension at least for the current batch of editors. I'll set up 2 subsections below for answers. And I'll start. again, i won't be offended if nobody cares - everybody works on what interests them. If you want to play, do so however you want, but this will work best if you say what you want, instead of arguing against what other people say. Yes I am inviting ~some~ soapbox here. The goal is that everybody understands the other guy's vision. Jytdog (talk) 15:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Apportionment

As the main article about BP worldwide in wikipedia, there is a ton of ground to cover, in time and space. The article will have several subarticles because there is so much ground to cover. Right now, the worldwide business stuff (above the "environmental" section) is roughly twice the length of everything from Environmental on down (roughly measured using my browser window - about 7 windows vs about 3.5). About 80% of the lower part is focused on the US roughly since 2000 (with 4 exceptions - Sea Gen rig collapse in the North Sea, Columbia farmers, Caspian Sea, Lockerbie bomber.. canadian oil sands are on the US radar b/c of the Keystone project). In my understanding, while of course making money is the most important thing to BP (as to every company), corporate social responsibility (CSR), globally, is also important to BP - they emphasize that stuff in their annual report, and in things they measure (which means more than those few words imply), in a way that I have seen few other big companies do. And that makes it reasonable to have a good chunk of the article deal with things related to corporate citizenship... but maybe a third of the article overall, and that third should definitely cover the globe, and the whole history. There is content we haven't generated yet.. for example there were concerted attacks against BP's operations by FARC in Columbia and BP needed protections for its operations there, which meant turning to the Columbian government... which is not the most human-rights friendly government in the world. How did that go? How does that compare with say, Shell in Nigeria? Super interesting and important topic. And how much oil did TNK-BP spill in Russia? Will we ever know?

So: I would say: 33% to CSR issues, globally and historically. Good and bad. Within that, events in the US since 2000 are definitely important to BP today (as the article states, "BP's operations in the United States comprise nearly one-third of its worldwide business interests, with more investment and employees than any other nation), and they unfortunately include the biggest oil spill that has ever happened, anywhere. So giving say 33% of that section to the US since 2000 is reasonable to me. Jytdog (talk) 15:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I think that what you're suggesting that we do is mischievous and could easily result in an article that is unbalanced and violative of the bedrock principle of NPOV.

What you're suggesting is that the editors come to a kind of "grand bargain" among themselves, in advance, over the proportion of space devoted to various topics and themes in this article. But as was mentioned below, the weight of the coverage of the topic in reliable sources determines the overall slant and emphasis of an article, not how editors feel about it. That coverage needs to be reflected in the article. We don't need a grand scheme and neither is one desirable. With all due respect, I suggest that your zeal to play a kind of Henry Kissinger role is clouding your best judgment. Coretheapple (talk) 17:37, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Excellent observations Core. Suddenly we find ourselves in a "Shock Doctrine" situation in which we must declare percentages because obviously if we are concerned about the environment we obviously are against devoting a reasonable amount of article space to anything else. And we must do it now. This entire Jytdog attempt to show what he has predetermined to be factual is set up to show that his observations are indeed correct. If this was just an attempt to herd cats that would be one thing, but it is my impression that this is an attempt to prove that the cats with a different point of view than his own are obviously wrong-minded cats. Gandydancer (talk) 19:45, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I offered this, and asked if people wanted to participate. No "must" here. I expected different viewpoints from mine. I asked people to not to argue, but instead to offer their own vision. Almost nobody has done it, but have just kept arguing - now with me. That's what people wanted to do, that's what they have done. Jytdog (talk) 20:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I also take exception to his characterization of editors as being "environmentalist" or whatever term he used, and more "corporate oriented." I have far more of a corporate than any other kind of background and have no involvement whatsoever in either environmentalism or the environmental movement, on or off Misplaced Pages. In point of fact, this article suffers from a lack of input from persons with expert knowledge of this company's track record on the environment. I strongly resent his effort to pigeonhole editors in this fashion, while he in effect positions himself as a kind of Kissinger-like mediator who is the only fair party here. Coretheapple (talk) 20:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Um, I'm right here. And no I don't think my perspective is better than anybody else's. I am very capable of being wrong and am, far too often. Jytdog (talk) 20:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Yep, as I stated earlier today, this is literally the first time in my life I've been referred to as an environmentalist. Somehow it doesn't feel like a compliment. It should, though, from what I understand we all very much need clean water and air and so on. So, if that label is used to denigrate someone, I am left with a lot of questions (much like how I feel after watching Fox news). I strongly resent his effort to pigeonhole editors in this fashion, while he in effect positions himself as a kind of Kissinger-like mediator who is the only fair party here. Couldn't have said it better, so I'll just highlight it. petrarchan47tc 20:27, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not denigrating anybody. People are free to care about whatever they want to care about. Again I opened this section to see if people would be interested in and willing to make positive statements about what they want the article to look like, in the big picture, so we can negotiate the big picture, instead of the incessant battles that go on about undue weight on every little thing. And it is clear that not enough people want to play, to make this work. That is fine! I will go back to working on content. Jytdog (talk) 20:44, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Color

Color commentary is generally not helpful. And with so much ground to cover, we don't have space for it. Use rarely if ever. Jytdog (talk) 15:15, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "color commentary." Coretheapple (talk) 12:26, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments

Jytdog, I don't know if this comprehensively answers your question, but I think that overall we should use OJ Simpson as a general template or role model of how to apportion the article. There you had an extremely successful football player who became a successful actor, but later in life became embroiled in a murder trial and other legal issues that re-defined his life from the perspective of reliable sources. To me that's the key. Not the perspective of the OJ Simpson legal team or Simpson's PR man or Simpson's fans.

I think that we are defining this company not the way it portrayed in the sourcing available to us, but as it is defined by the company, with excessive weight devoted to corporate history that can and should be spun off to a separate article.

Instead, we've spun off what makes BP significant, which is its atrocious environmental record, which culminated in the Gulf oil spill for which it has admitted criminal responsibility, very much unusual and unique for a major corporation. The pattern that I've noticed is that every time an expansion of an environmental issue is proposed, it is indeed deleted/reverted as you point out, along with a recommendation that it be "outsourced," in effect, to separate articles.

Separate articles do indeed need to be the place where you get into the weeds of BP's environmental messes. But the overall balance of the article needs to reflect the reality of BP as seen by the outside world, as reflected in the voluminous and, yes, largely hostile and skeptical coverage in reliable sources. Coretheapple (talk) 15:29, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Would love it if you would provide concrete percentages, in the apportionment section above. And respond to the color thing, directly. With positive statements of what you want. If you don't want to, that is fine. If you want to argue instead of putting out your vision, that is fine too. My intention was not to open another front of arguing, but instead to give people a chance to say what they do want. But everybody will do with this, whatever they want. Jytdog (talk) 15:53, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll try, but I hesitate to give hard-and-fast percentages because I simply don't know enough about BT to do so. I'm just looking for the time being at the general thrust of the article, viewed from space. Coretheapple (talk) 17:28, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Interesting, Core. Looking at the OJ Simpson article, the article is roughly half and half on his career before the murder and after. His pre-murder career is completely handled in the article, and the murder has a long discussion in the main article and a much longer subarticle; the robbery has a longish discussion in the main article and subarticle, and there is a longish section on other miscellaneous legal troubles. So that is roughly your vision for allotment of space in the article? Would the half on the "atrocious record' be about BP in the US in the last ten years? That seems to be your main concern. Jytdog (talk) 19:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

That's just a rough guide. I'm just suggesting that we get the needle out of our arms and recognize that we're dealing with a company that has committed criminal conduct, the OJ Simpson of corporations, regardless of its illustrious history dating back to the horse and buggy age. That can and should be getting short shrift, not its environmental issues that totally if not exclusively dominate the record of this company as reflected in reliable sources. Coretheapple (talk) 12:29, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Bizarre that comparison is being made between an article on an individual and an article on a 100 year old multinational company, truly bizarre that the article on O. J. Simpson is being held up as the model for this article. Rangoon11 (talk) 19:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Rangoon, so happy you are here! I would LOVE to hear your vision on apportionment and color, if you care to add them above. Ideally everybody gets a chance here to put out their vision; ideally not attacking the other guys (we've been doing that a long time, kind of dull to go around the same tree again no?). Core made it clear where he is coming from and how he would weight things... would love to hear yours. Jytdog (talk) 19:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Initial comments... Jytdog, I am not sure you've done enough research to summarize the "big picture", because you've missed something. I wouldn't call this language bland. This comes from the Intro from March 2012. The paragraph mentioning controversy (I found it quite colorful and lively):

BP's track record of corporate social responsibility has been mixed. The company has been involved in a number of major environmental and safety incidents and received criticism for its political influence. However, in 1997 it became the first major oil company to publicly acknowledge the need to take steps against climate change, and in that year established a company-wide target to reduce its emissions of greenhouse gases. BP currently invests over US$1 billion per year in the development of renewable energy sources, and has committed to spend US$8 billion on renewables in the 2005 to 2015 period.

Secondly, there seemed to be an insinuation that "environmentally focused" editors want emotion and possibly excessive weight placed on these issues. If you look at the article now, the Gulf spill section is equal in weight to BP's "environmental initiatives", and not larger than most other sections. Yet this event was easily one of the most pivotal in BP's history save for its inception. The mention of human health and environmental effects from the spill is one single line. It's equal in weight to a random mention of one Senator who called for Obama to lift the drilling ban. The litigation section of this bit is 12 sentences. Earlier on this talk page, I asked if editors could consider adding to that one line. So, your summary above is puzzling to me. I don't find it accurate at all.

Regarding "wanting to add content from the past ten years", that is unfair. Most of the news about BP is from the last ten years, and most is ugly. And truthfully, I am sorry about that. But as editors what are we to do??? If we want to update this article, we are soon tagged as BP haters. (Unless we add bland, neutral content, but others seem to have that covered.) petrarchan47tc 05:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC

In regard to Apportionment, Misplaced Pages guidelines say this is is based solely on what's found in WP:RS. It isn't decided by how editors feel. Slim Virgin said it well when she was here regarding Arturo's drafts:

"Misplaced Pages articles are meant to be a summary of the body of published literature – mostly high-quality secondary sources – that exists on a subject. We reflect the tone and content of that source material, and present issues in rough proportion to their appearance in that literature. We can use primary sources with caution (e.g. a company's own literature), but we don't let primary sources set the tone. So if the good secondary literature dwells on X, we dwell on X. If it is mostly negative about X, we are mostly negative about X. If it barely mentions X, we barely mention X. That's what "neutrality" means on Misplaced Pages. See WP:V, WP:NOR/WP:PSTS, and WP:NPOV/WP:UNDUE." SlimVirgin (18:36, 18 March 2013) petrarchan47tc 05:15, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Petrarchan and SlimVirgin - thanks for commenting here. I am sorry you both chose to argue instead of putting your own vision for apportionment out, but there you go. It is true that news over the past ten years has been full of negative stories about BP and the environment. However, you both seem to be confusing "news" with "reliable sources." News is a subset of RS. Jytdog (talk) 12:28, 15 April 2013 (UTC) (fixing reference to slimvirgin, my apologies! I was rushing to get to a meeting and should not have responded at all - my apologies again.Jytdog (talk) 19:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC))

Jytdog, I need to respond to your comments point-by-point. I don't like to cut up an editor's comments this way, but there is too much to deal with as a whole. First, would you please explain how this: We reflect the tone and content of that source material, and present issues in rough proportion to their appearance in that literature. became this: I am sorry you... chose to argue instead of putting your own vision for apportionment out. To my knowledge I am only supporting Misplaced Pages guidelines, and I meant to convey that your idea we decide the weight/tone of the article before researching or consulting available RS is not in keeping with those guidelines. There is no need to reinvent the wheel here. You asked for our idea of Apportionment, when Wiki has already dealt with this extensively in the guidelines (see those highlighted above by Slim). petrarchan47tc 18:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Petrarchan, I will do my best to respond to your wishes and will sign each section, so you can respond point by point if you wish.Jytdog (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

1) This section started with my request above for people to offer a positive vision of how they would apportion content in this article. I asked people not to argue, but instead focus on what they actually wanted. Core chose not to offer a positive vision but instead to argue. I really meant it what I said to you - I wish you would put your positive vision out, too. Do you see the misunderstanding?Jytdog (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I notice that you tend to characterize editors who disagree with what you're doing here as people who are "arguing" with you, in contrast to the nice people who are producing a "positive vision." Please stop using this kind of loaded terminology. It isn't at all helpful. Coretheapple (talk) 19:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

This section actually started with your assessment of the "environmentally focused" vs the business focused editors. It was to your initial comments that I made mine. I have not responded to your request for a positive vision except to remind you that we follow the Wiki guidelines, period. petrarchan47tc 20:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

2) I'm starting to repeat myself, but it is very clear to me that the environmentalists see the world one way, and the business-oriented editors see the world another way. Mostly, as noted, the environmentalists look at sources and they see the ones that are about the US environmental disasters over the past 10 years. You all repeat that, over and over. And really, I have heard you! Really I have! Really! I am saying this many times so you know I heard you. I heard you. You don't need to say it more. The news (especially in the US) has had tons of stories about BP's US disasters over the past 10 years. True! What I am hoping you, Petrarchan, will hear from me - is this: the business oriented editors actually see a bigger set of sources. Of course they see the articles about environmental damage, but they see the business reporting too, and read journal articles and books on the industry. Can you hear that? It like Fox News Nation vs the Rachel Maddow Fanclub. Not seeing the same world. Can you hear that? In this context, making a general statement about policy, is not helpful. The base of reliable sources is different. the reason I asked for apportionment was as a way to bring this to the surface, quantitatively. Jytdog (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I have never thought of myself, nor have I (this is the truth) EVER been referred to as an "environmentalist". I would appreciate if you would cease to categorize me unless you can back it up. If you look at my edit history at Wiki, you would be hard-pressed to categorize me at all. My intention as a Wiki editor is to be NPOV-focused, full stop. petrarchan47tc 20:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

3) I think those are the only two issues you raised. I have one last thing to say though. Some of the environmentally oriented folks here have said that they don't know much about BP and the fields they work in, and have made it clear they don't intend to know. Statements along these lines have stunned me. Especially when they arise in the context of a conversation about UNDUE. This is an article on BP - the whole company. If you don't know (and willfully don't know!) about the company as a whole, and have not gone and looked for and studied comprehensive, NPOV sources on the company as a whole, in what rational world, guided by wikipedia policy, can you make any claim about weight at all? I really, really do not understand this.Jytdog (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I have not seen anyone say they don't intend to know more about the subject of this article, would you be so kind as to provide a diff for this?

...the business oriented editors actually see a bigger set of sources Where are those sources? I am happy to work with ANY and ALL RS provided. I can only come up with what my search engine finds. Other "business-minded" folks might have different resources and I can only wait until those are offered here. petrarchan47tc 20:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

People would seem to prefer to argue than try to work something out. My hope was that we negotiate our way to percentages of length for sections to finally resolve the relentless fight over that. So again...

Arguing and commenting are not the same. Why do Beagle and Rangoon11 receive special invites and shows of appreciation from you, while the reception and response to others is vastly different? I see an unfortunate lack of balance that does not help the talk page process one iota. petrarchan47tc 18:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Several editors here are focused on environmental issues - that is the lens through which they are looking at BP and at this article. From that standpoint, and through that lens, the news of BP in the US in the past ten years looms very large and they want that weight reflected in the article. That is painfully obvious to them. Several of the editors working on environmental issues don't know much about BP as a whole or about many aspects of its business, and some also seem uninterested in learning about it or addressing those things - these things are not important to those editors. This of course leads to those matters deserving little weight in their eyes. It is easy to see where the article ends up, weight-wise. Right? In absence of statements, I would guess that they would say that this article should be at least 50% about those issues, or more. That is what I wish the environmentally oriented folks would have come out and said. (I agree that the bad stuff needs to be very clearly stated in the article. NOT absent. NOT sanitized. But also NOT given undue weight and not with color. there is also a lot of the sense of "david vs goliath" - of the righteous battling the oppressor in trying to get more, and more colorful content added, which is unfortunate and dehumanizing of the other side - a product of this war that you guys are in.)

Who are those several editors? I'm begging for help updating the environmental sections of the Gulf spill and no one has stepped up yet. So I have to assume you're speaking of me. And this is why I say you have not done enough research to be making these sweeping statements about the dynamics of this page over the past year. What is being reflected in this article now, for the most part, is BP's version of things. That is the result of having BP PR team drafts inserted word-for-word. The article is not a reflection of what RS says. You have to do research to understand this. Your comments about BP's departure from AE, as seen in the "BP leaving Wind" section of this talk page tells me you are shooting from the hip rather than using your search engine. Here are some examples of what you would have found:1 [2 3

It is a fallacy that I am coming 'through that lens'. The news of the past ten years regarding BP is what it is. BP in the US in the past ten years looms very large and they want that weight reflected in the article Damn straight. What looms large in RS is what should be reflected in ANY Wiki article. Several of the editors working on environmental issues don't know much about BP as a whole or about many aspects of its business, and some also seem uninterested in learning about it or addressing those things Again, you have not done your research. Can you name an editor here who does have intricate knowledge of all the aspects of this company, or who is willing to acquire and share that knowledge in the article? The BP PR team is covering certain issues in a particular way. But they are not helping inform the reader about the six-fold increase in Gulf dolphin deaths. So someone else has to step in. They should be appreciated for that effort as much as BP is appreciated for their help with updates, even though it covers only certain types of information. Your statement that "environmentally focused folks" show interest only in the ugly stuff is again false. Assuming you're speaking of me, I need to ask you to review the article changes over the past year as well as the talk pages. I worked on the AE section and added positive content, I have updated the history section and helped with the stock section (because after negative info about BP's stock was removed from the article, my attempt at re-adding it resulted in the claim that to do so I must create an entire Stock History section). And, I have barely added content about negative environmental issues to this article except maybe wikilinking to related articles. So I am just not sure what your position and above comments and are based on, but it isn't reality. petrarchan47tc 18:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I am guessing that business-oriented editors think this article is about BP as a whole. They look at business-oriented sources and they actually see see many many sources that barely discuss environmental issues. I would guess that they would want to give the environmental stuff something like 25% weight. Maybe less. I wish some of the business oriented people would have stepped up and made their statements. (I think 25% is too little, as I wrote above. I see that among business-oriented editors there is unfortunately a lot of ugly belittling of the willful ignorance of a lot of the environmentally oriented editors with respect to BP's actual business. this too is unfortunate - another product of this war you are in.)

We work with RS, no matter if it's positive or negative. Where are those links to the business articles? I am happy to work with any RS available, and there is no evidence to the contrary. petrarchan47tc 18:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The source of the problem is obvious.

Yeah, a lack of true research and time invested. A blame game by self-appointed Arbiters Of Fairness. petrarchan47tc 18:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

If you all don't step up and negotiate a solution on the big picture - on weights, you are going to be bound to stay in the hell of this endless warfare, calling each other nasty names and being very frustrated. Without a sense of boundaries, the environmentalists are always going to push for more, and the business-oriented people are always going to push back. You all want to be like those sad places on earth where there is endless civil war -- the places we look at and shake our heads? Neither side is going away. You all are choosing this. So step back from the war and negotiate already. Jytdog (talk) 12:28, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you quite get the point that Petrarchan47 made. I'm not even sure that you even read her remarks very carefully, as she was quoting SlimVirgin; that editor has not made an appearance here. (And neither the present nor absent editor "chose to argue." That's just a mischaracterization.) It's very simple: the weight of the reliable secondary sources determine the weight of an article.

In other words, it is not a touchy-feely process that tries to find a middle ground between what editors feel. Coretheapple (talk) 12:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Core, copied your signature below to your comment above, so I could respond to this. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Will fix that. As I wrote above "However, you both seem to be confusing "news" with "reliable sources." News is a subset of RS." And yes, the weight of ALL RS should determine the weight of an article -- not just the news about BP's record in America over the past 10 years. Please respond to this. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 19:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Please don't put words in my mouth. I have made no such confusion. The amount of coverage of this company in reliable sources is staggering. And yes, obviously that includes non-news sources, but we must be mindful of the limitations on use of primary sources in the RS policy. Thus the desire of certain editors to find "reports" by supposedly neutral governmental bodies had to be balanced against that. The effort to shrug off the coverage of BP in reliable sources is one of the characteristics of some of the editing that has taken place in this article. Coretheapple (talk) 21:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Core, I am not interested in "touchy-feely". I negotiate for a living. Negotiations are hard and require discipline. But when they are handled well they solve problems and lay the groundwork for future success. When I say "you are choosing this" - I mean all the editors who are doing trench warfare on both sides with respect to environmental content, not just one set of editors. The trench warfare is repetitive and frustratingly unproductive. And boring. And painful. It was very unpleasant to reach the Talk archives - the way people conducted themselves and treated each other has been really horrible. It must have been uglier to live through. Anyway, I am inviting people, including you, out of the trenches and to a negotiation. Which again, would be hard, and would require discipline. If you want to stay in the trenches, that's what you will do. Jytdog (talk) 19:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, some of the editing has bordered on the tendentious and violative of WP:OWN, especially the hairtrigger reverts that I've seen. But the solution is not for one editor to appoint himself as impartial editor, "negotiating" an "apportionment" agenda that has the potential to make this article even more unbalanced and more of a whitewash than it currently is. Even if you found agreement among the editors here on apportionment, it would not overrule NPOV.

Now that I've addressed your questions, can you please address mine, which relate to what sentences in the litigation section violate NPOV, and how you can reconcile your position on that section with your position a few days ago advocating a special section for the Misplaced Pages controversy. Coretheapple (talk) 21:50, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Please don't slice and dice my comments. Can you please reasssemble my comment and rejigger your response accordingly? Coretheapple (talk) 19:08, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I've reassembled my 12:47 comment. Please, I'd very much appreciate it if you wouldn't edit my comments in that manner. Coretheapple (talk) 19:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Beagel

I did not understand do you expect all comments is this section or comments by different questions by different sections. Therefore I will put all my comments here.

• Apportionment. The 33% and 33% proposal is interesting and it has some certain logic. However, I am not able to say if these figures are adequate, too much or too little. I see the potential risk that implementing any percentage we may ending by counting the prose of different sections instead of concentrating to the substance. E.g. just adding some hilarious quotes to fulfil the room of 33% or vice versa–deleting substantial content just to fit within the 33% limit. I believe that all major aspects should be covered according to NPOV but there we have a problem that different editors have very different understandings what that means. So, before talking about any percentage we should find and agree the proper structure for this article–covering all aspects related to the company but at the same time avoiding fragmentation of the text. I knew I am repeating myself but T think that without that we are not able to solve the problems related to this article.

• Color. The main principle is that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopaedia, not media outlet. That means the text should be businesslike, neutral and without emotions. There has been problems with over-quotations. Probably there are cases when quotations may be justified but in the context of this article I don't see any potential case at the moment when it would be necessary. So, the answer is that we should not use the color language. I think that we should use the comparison with Britannica: if we can't imaging that the given language will be published in Britannica, why it should be in Misplaced Pages? The second issue is tone. There seems to be a theory that writing about negative things we should use negative tone. I disagree with this. While, facts may be positive or negative, the tone should be neutral. The third issue here is redundancy which is a problem with some sections. If you can to report the fact with less words, you should to do it. Again, The Tony1 redundancy exercise is a good tool to improve the encyclopaedic writing. Beagel (talk) 17:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Beagel! I think we agree on the "color" thing. On apportionment, I hear you, on the danger of apportionment being used like a "quota system". I hear you on the outline idea, and I noticed in the Talk archives that work started on an outline. However, at the end of the day, decisions will still need to be made on the length of each section with the outline... on the weight each topic is given.. right? My question about percentages was jumping all the way to the end. I don't know if enough editors are going to join this conversation to provide for a meaningful negotiation... we'll see! Thanks in any case for joining this conversation, in the midst of all the other editing work you are doing. Jytdog (talk) 19:01, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

This was a failed experiment. Thanks to everybody who participated. Sorry to those who found the effort or my comments offensive. I'm going back to working on content. Jytdog (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I for one appreciate the effort. It was the labeling and characterization that was not in keeping with the editing records of this article and talk page that I found a bit offensive, to be clear. But I meant to add clarifying and informative statements in response to you, I hope it wasn't taken as "I'm offended! How dare you?!". I'm simply aiming for fact-based communication. I don't feel, and hope I didn't express, any hostility towards you. I do wish to stress that a greater effort towards neutrality with regard to your treatment of the material and the editors might be in order.

As for content, if you feel to work on the expansion of/updating environmental aspects of the spill, I've left some links at the "Gulf oil spill" section above. But my feeling differs from yours in that I don't believe every editor is obligated to work on all aspects of this or any Wiki article, so if you're not interested in putting in the time and research, please ignore my request. But, due to practices at this page like the aforementioned labeling, I cannot expect to work on this section alone without causing myself a lot of grief. petrarchan47tc 23:33, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry for my mischaracterizations. Thank you for the corrections and for the advice. I have done too much meta-discussion already and do not intend to do more, so you don't have to worry about that! A correction for you: I don't expect you to read everything I have written, but you and I are on the same page -- I absolutely do not believe every editor is obligated to work on all aspects of this or any Wiki article - in fact if you do look at what I have written here on Talk, I say all the time that volunteer editors do exactly whatever they want to and nobody has the right to boss us around. (my failed experiment was very carefully framed as an invitation, and I explicitly wrote that if people want to join, great, and if they don't, great. I don't know how you got the wrong impression.. actually maybe I do. I wrote above that if somebody doesn't have a grasp of the subject matter of an article, that they are in a very weak position when discussing the appropriate weight that any topic should be given in the article. I actually do believe that is true and wish that people who were in that position would argue more.. humbly. They often don't. Their choice! To me that line of reasoning is different from obligating anyone to work on anything....maybe to you it is not different) About working on environmental stuff here -- thanks for the invitation {which is how I took it - not as bossiness :)}. Gandy invited me to work on the prudhoe spill sub-article, and that is what I am doing now... will be happy to look at the other stuff when I am done. I am sorry again, and thank you for your kind note. Jytdog (talk) 00:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I asked you a lot of pointed questions; I took about two hours responding to you today, and would very much appreciate if you would respond to them (when you find time). Please take a look at your point #3 above - this looks to me as if you do expect us to research all aspects of this subject, and you seemed upset that some weren't willing to. What did you mean by that? Thanks in advance. petrarchan47tc 03:24, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Confused... Above, I wrote (with some edits here for clarity): if somebody doesn't have a grasp of the entire subject matter of an article, they are in a very weak position when discussing the appropriate weight that any given content should be given in the article about that subject. I actually do believe that is true in policy and wish that people who were in that position would argue more.. humbly. They often don't. Their choice! To me that line of reasoning is different from my obligating anyone to work on anything....maybe to you it is not different. And below I provided the part of UNDUE that is relevant to that, with emphasis added this time: "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements." The only way to put news in context - to judge its appropriate weight with respect to its significance to the subject - is to have a grasp of the subject as a whole. Jytdog (talk) 11:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes I noticed that you spent a lot of time on that, and this is what made me realize that the experiment was a failure. It had become focused on things I wrote (which I should not have written in the first place as they were not helpful), instead of the experiment. I am sorry you spent so much time critiquing my viewpoint, but I don't see any point in spending more time on that here - the experiment failed, and my statement of my views on what is going on here, and your critique of my views, don't help advance the content of the article - I would just be compounding my original error by digging further. If you are really interested and want to keep discussing on my Talk page or yours, I would be willing to do that. But you are 100% right that I mischaracterized you as "environmentally oriented." That was dead wrong and sloppy of me. Jytdog (talk) 11:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

How about answering just this one question, then? ...the business oriented editors actually see a bigger set of sources Where are those sources? petrarchan47tc 22:03, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

If you look at the business oriented content in this article, you will find it is supported by business oriented sources. In terms of internet searching, you can go here http://quotes.wsj.com/BP or here http://www.economist.com/topics/bp or here http://www.ogj.com/topics/search?&q=%22british+petroleum%22+OR+BP&y=-156&x=-1060&sort=date Jytdog (talk) 23:15, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

btw petrarchan, does my response to your question about "point 3" answer your question? do you see my reasoning? do you agree? (3 questions) Jytdog (talk) 23:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Additional note - this is the part of WP:UNDUE relevant to what i wrote above: "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements." Jytdog (talk) 00:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Judge, jury, and executioner

It seems that some editors here somehow 'know' that BP are a bad lot and that they have the worst safety and environmental record of any oil company and that is its our job to structure the article to reflect that 'fact'.

That is not how WP works. We do not design articles to promote our own personal opinions, neither do we apportion content in accordance with our own personal views or coverage in recent news sources.

I do not actually know how BP's overall safety and environmental record compares with, say, the other supermajors but all we need to settle this are some quality, independent, reliable sources giving us this information. If such sources say that BP has a particularly bad safety or environmental record compared with comparable oil companies then we can say that here. If there are no such sources the we simply cannot make statements of that nature in this article, neither can we imply such by the way we structure the article or apportion content.

Reliable sources for this purpose do not include investigative news reports following a major disaster. The purpose of investigative journalism is to find out hidden bad stuff about a person or organisation. They serve a useful purpose in bringing to out attention people or organisations doing things that they should not be doing, but investigative reports they have no obligation to present a balanced overall picture; we do. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources for this purpose do not include investigative news reports following a major disaster. Of course they do. You can't possibly be serious. The notability of this company is intrinsically tied to its criminality, offenses for which it has pled guilty and for which it is being exposed to daily exposure in an ongoing civil liability trial for which it faces enormous further exposure. Coretheapple (talk) 12:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The notability of this company is intrinsically tied to its criminality, now who cannot be serious? One of the largest companies in the world and you claim it is notable only for one thing!!

News reports cannot possible be regarded as reliable sources for the overall safety and environmental record of a large company. The media have neither the resources or the inclination to carry out detailed comparisons between similar companies over a period of years. Indeed it is not their job to do this. To make proper comparison between BP and other large oil companies we need an independent international or governmental source with knowledge and expertise in the subject that has carried out a proper study.

Here are some relevant quotes from WP:RS:

The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is an appropriate source for that content.

News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content. "News reporting" from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors).

Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

"News reports cannot possible be regarded as reliable sources for the overall safety and environmental record of a large company"? Of course they can. You just cited RS, and it says so. Coretheapple (talk) 13:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

How do you read that? Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:52, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

With my two eyes. Coretheapple (talk) 17:26, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I think you have your eyes closed to the obvious facts. Which bit of WP:RS do you claim means that a news report can be a reliable source on the overall comparative safety record of a multinational company? Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The comparative safety record of BP is a question of fact, as determined by reliable sources, and there is no special exemption for BP on that point. Coretheapple (talk) 18:25, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Core have you found any RSs that compare BP and its peers, globally? I have been looking and have been having a hard time finding anything. There is lots on the US over the past ten years, but even those do not touch on the global record. Jytdog (talk) 20:14, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

No, I have mainly been dealing with your failed "experiment" and coping with editors engaged in hair-trigger reverts of a section that describes the serious and significant exposure that BP has in its current litigation. I am not employed for the purposes of contributing to this article, as is the case for many if not most of the other editors working here, and I have to apportion my time according to the priorities that, unfortunately, are being set by other editors with agendas of an unclear character. Coretheapple (talk) 21:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Jytdog, in the course of doing some cursory research on this topic, I came upon BP's guilty plea to criminal charges connected to its 1999 North Shore oil spill. The section on the oil spill made it seem as if this was the settlement of a civil charge, and no mention was made of the guilty plea. Can you please explain to me, if you know, how this article got to the point where a guilty plea to criminal charges is not even mentioned? I mean, is this article so totally an NPOV disaster as that omission gives the impression of its being? Coretheapple (talk) 01:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Core, I can't quite figure out what you are referring to here. Can you please go into more detail? Gandydancer (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I was referring to the edit I made here . Coretheapple (talk) 21:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Question: 'Core have you found any RSs that compare BP and its peers, globally?'
Answer: 'No'

That means we cannot say or imply that BP has a worse record than its peers. Neither can we structure the article to suggest that, or apportion content on that basis. That is the rules. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:51, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Uh, I haven't even looked, Martin. Words in my mouth please do not put. Gracias. Coretheapple (talk) 21:00, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

'No' is exactly what you said above. Whether the answer is 'no' because you have looked and found nothing or because you have not looked at all is immaterial. The onus is on you to produce a source for what you say here. If you have no source that globally compares BP to its peers you cannot make or imply any comparison here. That is the rules.

Perhaps you could explain what you mean by, 'I am not employed for the purposes of contributing to this article, as is the case for many if not most of the other editors working here'. We have one editor, Arturo, who is employed by BP and who has quite properly disclosed his interest here. As far as I know, no one else has any connection with BP. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:43, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Can you provide a source that proves that only one editor is employed by BP? ```Buster Seven Talk 12:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Buster, perhaps you should have a look through WP:FIVEPILLARS again. Reliable sources are required for adding content to the encyclopedia not for talk page discussions where editors should assume good faith. Only one user here has disclosed any connection to BP so we must assume that others have no connection. Attacks on other editors should be avoided. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:07, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I just saw this discussion and would like to note again, as I have elsewhere if not on this Talk page, that I am the only authorized representative of BP on Misplaced Pages. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 16:01, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree Arturo. You are the only self-identified Authorized representative of BP on Misplaced Pages. ```Buster Seven Talk 21:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I have never added any text to the article on BP's safety record compared to other companies. Maybe that accounts for your confusion. Coretheapple (talk) 14:04, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Any confusion is likely to be in the minds of our readers, who, on reading this article, will get the clear impression that BP has the world's worst environmental and safety record. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Not exactly. Until recently, the reader did not even know that BP pleaded guilty to criminal charges stemming from its 1999 oil spill. Coretheapple (talk) 16:45, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

BP Misplaced Pages outreach team

According to BP, Arturo is the head of the company's "Misplaced Pages Outreach Team". Arturo serves as the voice for BP PR on Misplaced Pages. Administrator "Ocassi" claimed he had connected BP with Rangoon11 via the OTRS system for the purposes of helping this article. This was before Arturo introduced himself, and was never revealed to anyone on this page. (Since that time, the Administrator backtracked on his previous claim.) It is important we remain fact-based at this talk page and especially with regard to BP's direct involvement here. They have already admitted there is a team at work here, it makes no sense to ignore this fact. petrarchan47tc 20:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

• Just above (at 16:01) Arturo says he is "the only authorized representative of BP on Misplaced Pages". I think he is the only "self-identified" representative on Misplaced Pages. Your research shows that he is the head of the "WP Outreach team". Are we not on a need to know basis as to which one is fact? ```Buster Seven Talk 22:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Buster and Petrarchan, there is no "Misplaced Pages outreach team", the article in The Huffington Post got that wrong (the statement released by BP is quoted in full in this article, it's the same one that was sent to The Huffington Post). I am the only person working for BP active on this article. Also, I never had contact with Ocaasi or Rangoon11 through the OTRS system. See Ocaasi's question about this on my Talk page last month.

In response to Petrarchan's other comment about the level of involvement by BP here: again, read the statement which makes clear I have many other duties as part of BP's corporate communications team, which is why it sometimes takes me time to answer queries from editors or to respond here. Arturo at BP (talk) 21:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for straightening that out Arturo. It eases my mind. Not completely :~) but enough to be comfortable. BTW...I have no problem with you and I respect the difficult position you are in. ```Buster Seven Talk 00:39, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

request for arturo - maps with waiver of copyright

Hi Arturo

I've been wanting to revise the Prudhoe Bay oil spill article (along with Gandy) so it is of better quality. I would like to then generate a summary of the improved article for inclusion here. I want to understand the Prudhoe Bay Oil Field better and have been reading about that and its context - the Alaska North Slope article and the National Petroleum Reserve–Alaska. I found some maps and added them to those articles, but I don't want to address the Prudhoe spill article until I understand the physical context of Prudhoe. It would be awesome to add a couple of maps to that article. The state of alaska has this http://doa.alaska.gov/ogc/annual/current/18_Oil_Pools/Prudhoe%20Bay%20-%20Oil/Prudhoe%20Bay,%20Prudhoe%20Bay/Map_Area_Loc.pdf and this http://doa.alaska.gov/ogc/annual/current/18_Oil_Pools/Prudhoe%20Bay%20-%20Oil/Prudhoe%20Bay,%20Aurora%20-%20Oil/Map_Area_Loc.pdf which are definitely helpful, but a) while content produced by the US government has no copyright in the US, the same is not true of state government produced content, and with that uncertainty I cannot use these maps in Misplaced Pages (I am writing them to see if I can use them); and b) they are not detailed with respect to fields and pipelines within those units.

So here is a request -- would BP be willing to provide maps of the Units around Prudhoe where it works and detail within them, and release the copyright on them so they can added to Misplaced Pages articles? Specifically, it would be great to have one map at the scale of the State of Alaska maps above, showing the Units, and another one or two that show clearly where fields and pipelines are within Units, so I can add them to relevant articles to help readers get grounded in the basic layout of the units and fields and pipelines, and also to make sense of what happened with the spills at Prudhoe. This would be very helpful. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 18:25, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Jytdog, I am checking on whether this is possible. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 21:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! Jytdog (talk) 11:41, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Jytdog, I will be able to share a Prudhoe map. Will follow up soon. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 21:53, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Clean Water Act Trial: How much detail?

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Should the "Clean Water Act trial" section of BP be a section or subsection, and should it contain the following paragraph (subject to alteration of the amount of potential fines to $17 billion, as suggested by the BP corporate editor) :

The Justice Department is seeking the stiffest fines possible. A finding of gross negligence would result in a four-fold increase in the fines BP would have to pay for violating the federal Clean Water Act, which could amount to $20 billion, and would leave the company liable for punitive damages for private claims that weren’t part of a $8.5 billion settlement the company reached with most private party plaintiffs in 2012.

References for paragraph

1. Susan Buchanan (25 March 2013). "Judge says two BP contractors not at fault". Louisiana Weekly. Retrieved 11 April 2013.
2. Oberman, Mira (19 February 2013). "BP vows to 'vigorously defend' itself at US oil spill trial". Agence France-Press. Retrieved 13 April 2013.
3. Thompson, Richard (5 April 2013). "BP to begin presenting its defense Monday in Gulf oil spill trial". The Times-Picayune. Retrieved 13 April 2013.
4. DuBois, Shelley (8 April 2013). "BP: Negligent, but not grossly?". Fortune. Retrieved 13 April 2013.
5. Johnson Jr., Allen (18 March 2013). "BP Loses Bid to Dismiss Gross Negligence in Spill Trial". Bloomberg LLC. Retrieved 13 April 2013.

Coretheapple (talk) 17:52, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The issue was discussed previously in Talk:BP#Oil_spill_trial.

Comment by RfC initiator

The above text has been repeatedly removed. The subsection in question is at http://en.wikipedia.org/BP#Clean_Water_Act_trial The edits that gave rise to this RfC are and , removing the above text and demoting this from section to subsection.

I believe that the text should be reinstated. I believe its relevancy, neutrality and significance is self-evident and indisputable. The trial in question, which commenced in February and will run through 2014, is clearly deserving of a separate section, given the potential enormous exposure that BP has and the fact that this trial will be ongoing, generating headlines, through next year. The text in question states that the Justice Department is seeking maximum penalties that could run into the billions.

The trial, which has received extensive coverage in the media, deals with BP's actions in the Gulf Oil Spill for which BP has already pleaded guilty, and faces fine of up to $20 billion. The presence of other articles is immaterial. This is a very serious trial, and it behooves us to mention it to readers, and state what is at stake. Failure to do so would be a serious NPOV violation, as is the fact that the legal jeopardy that BP faces is not mentioned in the article thanks to the recent edits, and I have so tagged the article.

On the "$20 billion" figure, the BP Corporate editor monitoring the article on the talk page here has indicated that other sourcing states that the actual figure of BP's exposure from this trial is really $17 billion, not $ 20 billion. If that can be verified, the figure can be adjusted, but first we need to deal with whether we are going to deal with this in the article at all. Right now we are in the extraordinary position of an article on BP not stating that the U.S. Justice Department is seeking maximal penalties in the billions concerning an issue in which BP has already pleaded guilty to criminal charges. Coretheapple (talk) 19:10, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments by uninvolved editors

• I have been involved in the article in the past but I have not yet taken part in discussion or editing of the trial section. I think the paragraph is generally good, after expanding the contraction, and after telling the reader that one estimate is $20B while BP's estimate is $17B. This is an astoundingly large amount of money, unique in global corporate history let alone BP's 100-year history. It must be in the main article because of its great significance. Binksternet (talk) 23:24, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
• Comment by uninvolved editor The amounts involved are material, considering BP has a market cap of 130 billion dollars, and should therefore be mentioned. TFD (talk) 01:14, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I do not think that there is any argument against mentioning the figures involved. The RfC is about whether the court case deserves it own top-level section and the wording of the text. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

On re-reading the text that I removed I see that the figures are pure speculation. There would be no objection to adding some figures when we actually have some. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Clarification regarding figures Coretheapple mentioned above that I had offered a clarification previously about the maximum penalty under the Clean Water Act and I'd like to explain this again for those who may not have seen. Following a judge's ruling in February, oil recovered by BP will not be included in calculations of any penalty that the company faces, which reduced the potential maximum penalty from $21 billion to approximately $17.6 billion. This estimate is explained in the Reuters source I linked before, and also the Environment News Service article provided by Petrarchan below. Recent articles about the trial including coverage by The Huffington Post, The New York Times, Bloomberg and Reuters as well as many more refer to a maximum penalty of around $17.5 or $17.6 billion, clearly showing this is the widely accepted estimate of the potential maximum penalty amount currently. These links should provide the verification of the lower estimate. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 23:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I would have no objection to a short sentence saying something like, 'BP is expected to have to pay from $XXX to $YYY in further penalties, dependent on the outcome of court cases'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: Per the new references, I made the change to $17.6 ealy this A.M. I think that concludes all of Arturo's requests from the 10th. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments by involved editors

• Comment by involved editor. This article is about BP as more than 100-years old company. It already has a separate subsection about the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. Taking account that this article should cover all aspects about BP and its history, as also the fact that there are more specific articles about the the oil spill (namely: Deepwater Horizon oil spill and its series, for the court proceedings there is a separate article Deepwater Horizon litigation), having two sections about this event in this article gives undue weight to this event compared with the other aspects related to the company. As the trial is going on at the moment, the above-mentioned paragraph is speculative. It is justified to be added in the Deepwater Horizon litigation article but not here. Beagel (talk) 18:03, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
• Comment by involved editor As per Beagel above. I removed the content shown because, even based on the sources cited it is clearly biased against BP. Compare, for example the article text, "The Justice Department is seeking the stiffest fines possible", with the title of the supporting reference, "BP vows to 'vigorously defend' itself at US oil spill trial".— Preceding unsigned comment added by Martin Hogbin (talk • contribs)
• Stating the Obvious. I'm pretty sure you meant to write "Clean Water Act", is that correct? Why would the Clean Water Act trial (aka, "phase two" of the BP Gulf spill trial) be handled separately from the other litigation revolving around this spill? Right now, the explosion, spill and related court cases are covered together in one small section. I would suggest splitting the Gulf spill litigation into its own section, and the upcoming Clean Water Act trial could be handled within that. BP did recover some of the spilled oil, and the court agreed that amount would be deducted from their CWA fines. This is why the figure dropped. Source petrarchan47tc 19:49, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry about the error. Yes, that's not a bad idea. (the separate section on the environmental litigation, that is) Coretheapple (talk) 20:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment by involved editorDoes not deserve its own section or subsection. I edited this down to something similar to the current statement, and removed the section divider, shortly after Core originally posted this. Reason it does not deserve its own section or subsection: This article is about BP as a whole; there is already a section on Industrial Accidents and within that, a subsection on DWH. DWH as a topic has 2 main articles (explosion and spill) and each of those has spawned several sub-sub articles. One of them is on litigation. These main DWH articles and the subarticles, including litigation, are linked as "see main" in the BP DWH section. Detail on this trial should go in litigation article. A summary of that should go into the 2 main DWH articles. And very compressed and highlevel content should be in the BP article, as brief sentences in the DWH section. Not blow-by-blow, which would quickly blow up to overwhelm the BP article. About the specific content. The content itself is overly florid and detailed for its desired location in the BP article - already getting into the blow-by-blow. I would edit as follows (just the facts, ma'am): (strikeouts are deleted text, italics are added text) "The Justice Department is seeking the stiffest fines possible. A a finding of gross negligence, which would result in a four-fold increase in the fines BP would have to pay for violating the federal Clean Water Act, which could amount to $20 billion, and would leave the company liable for punitive damages for private claims that weren’t part of a $8.5 billion settlement the company reached with most private party plaintiffs in 2012. " Jytdog (talk) 20:04, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

As ugly as it may be, we need to reflect on what this trial means in light of BP's history and the history of this type of fine in general. BP has a 100 year history. If we find one singular event that effects the company as much as the Gulf spill has, that should be reflected in the coverage given by this article. As it is, Misplaced Pages is saying that the Gulf spill and related court cases are barely a side-note, indeed as influential as their "environmental initiatives" if judged by article space allotted. In fact, BP's stock since the spill has fallen by 1/3rd. Did any other event in this company's history have such an effect? The fines in this case are outstanding in terms of being the 'first ever of this size'. That fact alone warrants a reconsideration of the weight given by Misplaced Pages (ie, we, the editors). To argue that we are making too big a deal out of this, or because it's covered in other spin-off articles (the litigation article received 36 hits today) there is little need to mention it here, makes no sense to me unless NPOV isn't the true goal. petrarchan47tc 20:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Interesting question - Most important events in BP's history! Destruction of its colonialist business model in the ME and Africa. Divestment by British gov't. The Torrey Canyon spill (at that time, the biggest spill ever - gets a single sentence.). Pioneering role in Prudhoe Bay field (not mentioned) and in North Sea. Remaking under Browne via M&A. Involvement in Caspian projects which are of enormous geopolitical significance vis a vis Russia and Europe. Maybe pioneering role in deepwater Gulf of Mexico and off coast of Brazil. String of Big 3 disasters in the US over past 10 years are important for BP itself due to the loss of trust in the country where the "new BP" has made its biggest investments and concomitant increasing size of penalties. Even if DWH were the only one, it would have been significant. This is very US/Euro focused - I am still learning about BP in Africa, far east, and S America. How would you answer the question? Jytdog (talk)

Sorry, what question exactly? Since this conversation is similar enough to a past one with Rangoon11, instead of repeating myself, here is my comment about US centered, recent content. petrarchan47tc 20:28, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't take questions as rhetorical, and you asked only one: "Did any other event in this company's history have such an effect?" ie. What are the most important events in BP's history? (if we are trying to judge weight...)Jytdog (talk) 20:46, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if it wouldn't be a better idea to focus on bite-size pieces? It seems we do have enough information about the impact of the Gulf spill to see that its coverage in the article is massively imbalanced, for the reasons I described in my response to your 'failed experiment". After the media coverage of the problems at this page, there was a suggestion that each section written by BP should be analyzed for spin or missing content. Why don't we, as a group, decide a plan of action and focus on one thing at a time. As for a list of "worse things ever" for BP, this might prove helpful. petrarchan47tc 22:27, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree that a wholesale reappraisal of the POV of this article is urgently needed. Hopefully this RfC will be the catalyst for such a reappraisal, and also will get more eyes on this article. I also think that your idea of breaking out a section on the litigation has merit. However it is structured, the information contained in the paragraph that is the subject of this RfC is either going to be in the article or not. That's the issue before us. Coretheapple (talk) 22:12, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree too. This page needs to revert to being an encyclopedia article about a company rather than an attack site. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

• 'Re-comment by involved editor - last night I actually added to this section, although I do not believe that the subsection should exist and there is already too much information on the litigation here. I did that because the material added recently by editors who want this information here, was of embarrassingly poor quality. Information was spread across two sections (the DWH section and this subsection) and the content expressed no understanding of the flow of the litigation nor how the DOJ's Aug 31 filing fit into it - it was just a tactical step, not a dramatic change in strategy - and not the Dramatically Important Action that the content made it out to be. This is what litigation is like. The parties have goals (for BP, come through this with as few penalties as possible; for the plaintiffs, come out of this with the maximum penalties they can win) and there are endless tactics deployed and postures taken to achieve those goals. The article detailing the litigation (Deepwater Horizon litigation) is even worse - people "cared" enough to post a lot of fragments based on news reports, but not enough to fit them into a coherent narrative. My hope is that the text currently here gets moved as a whole into the litigation article and a brief, summary statement as per my post above is stated here, in the DWH section - not in a subsection. Again, blow by blow descriptions of tactical filings (and reactions to them) and daily trial reports should NOT be here. I don't understand how editors can be so passionate about driving this content into this article and including it in WIkipedia, but have not put in the time to understand even these issues enough to write about them accurately. I don't get it. Jytdog (talk)

I was also wondering how it came to be that there was no mention of BP's guilty plea to criminal charges connected to its 1999 North Shore oil spill. That kind of inexplicable omission troubles me, and there may be a good deal more, which is why I am not enthused with the kind of wholesale slashing that you advocate. This article has gone through the whitewash mill already, it doesn't need to go through it again. Coretheapple (talk) 14:10, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Less detail here?

I wonder if the following paragraph could be cut back some?:

On August 13, 2012 BP filed papers with the court urging it to approve an estimated $7.8 billion settlement reached with 125,000 individuals and businesses in the consolidated suit, asserting that its actions "did not constitute gross negligence or willful misconduct." In response to the BP filing and in order to ensure that BP could not use its filing and any possible acceptance of the settlement to escape a judgement of gross negligence, on August 31 2012 the US Department of Justice (DOJ) filed papers describing the spill as an example of "gross negligence and willful misconduct". BP rejected the charges saying "BP believes it was not grossly negligent and looks forward to presenting evidence on this issue at trial in January." A ruling of gross negligence would result in a four-fold increase in Clean Water Act penalties, which would cause the penalties to reach approximately $17.6 billion, and would increase damages in the other suits as well. Gandydancer (talk) 14:33, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed somewhat. All this should go into the Litigation article with only a brief summary left behind. This is directly related to the topic above, not sure why you made a new section. The last sentence is all that is needed out of what you pulled out here. Core insisted on the 2nd and 3rd sentences. The 2nd sentence makes no sense without the first, which I added along with the prefacing phrase to the 2nd sentence. . Jytdog (talk) 14:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

It can be reduced in size without it being a "brief summary," especially since some editors have been striving to make that "brief summary" so uninformative that it fails to contain a reference to the billions of dollars ($17 billion at last count) that is being sought by the Justice Department. This RfC was brought about because of the whitewashing of that very section, removing the reference to the billions sought in damages by the Justice Department. That's why we're here. Let's be clear on that. What we're seeing at work here is the same kind of overly aggressive slashing that resulted in the section on the punishment for the 1999 oil spill not mentioning BP's guilty plea. JYTdog, you sought aggressively to remove any mention of the billions in exposure from this section and now you remove efforts to take out extraneous detail. I just can't figure out what you're doing here. Coretheapple (talk) 14:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I just implemented what I wrote above, and Gandy's suggestion too. Jytdog (talk) 15:02, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, and in the course of that you removed any mention of the fact that the Justice Department was claiming gross negligence and willful misconduct, while you included the docket number. I've fixed that. Why did you include the docket number, which is unencyclopedic and trivial, while not including a reference to the gross negligence/misconduct claim even though it is nowhere else referenced in that section? Coretheapple (talk) 15:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

@ Jytdog Please read my post again because actually I didn't make any suggestions. I was looking for input. Again and again one finds the ol' Ac-Cent-Tchu-Ate the Positive, eliminate the negative here and I want to avoid that. Gandydancer (talk) 15:28, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

That's right. All you did was say that it could be "cut back some," and most certainly did not suggest that it be trimmed so as to exclude any mention of the Justice Department's contention that BP committed gross negligence. Without that sentence on what the DOJ is seeking, the sentence that follows (about quadruple damages) makes no sense. Coretheapple (talk) 15:33, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Gandy, sorry I took it as a suggestion. I agreed with your "wondering." And i am NOT downplaying the negative. I did remove blow by blow which is too much detail for this article. I left the biggest thing, which is that BP is at risk for a finding of gross negligence - which it always was - and what the consequences of that finding would be. Core, it figures that you don't find the docket number important. If you want to do any actual research on this - you know, so you can actually know the details of what you are writing about - the docket number is essential for finding information. And as I wrote above, BP was ALWAYS at risk for a finding of gross negligence -- DOJ only filed those papers in response to BP's attempt to establish a judge-approved record that it was not. As stated in the reliable source that Core provided. All of that is entirely normal in litigation, where everybody maneuvers to maximize the chances of getting what they want, in a settlement or in court. Which I explained above already. Frustrating. You don't understand these things, in the big picture (i.e. how litigation goes) nor in the details of this specific litigation, yet you are so demanding that your expression of them be accepted as correct. Jytdog (talk) 15:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Very simple question: Why did you omit that the DOJ accused BP of gross negligence and willful misconduct, and that it was seeking the maximum penalties? Don't give me the "big picture." Give me an answer. Coretheapple (talk) 16:09, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Third time. Will just copy/paste this time. "And as I wrote above, BP was ALWAYS at risk for a finding of gross negligence -- DOJ only filed those papers in response to BP's attempt to establish a judge-approved record that it was not. As stated in the reliable source that Core provided. All of that is entirely normal in litigation, where everybody maneuvers to maximize the chances of getting what they want, in a settlement or in court." The reueters article (originally cited via Guardian's publication of it, which is now dead) is the source:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/gulf-oil-spill-2010-bp-gross-negligence_n_1856209.html Here is what it says: The new comments do not represent a change in U.S. officials' legal stance, said David Uhlmann, a University of Michigan professor and former environmental crimes prosecutor. "The Justice Department has consistently maintained that BP and Transocean were grossly negligent and engaged in willful misconduct in the events leading up to the Gulf oil spill," Uhlmann said in an email to Reuters. The department's latest filing "contains sharper rhetoric and a more indignant tone than the government has used in the past," he said. But the filing does exhibit exasperation on the part of government lawyers. They wrote that they decided to elaborate on BP's alleged gross negligence because they believed BP was trying to escape full responsibility. The Justice Department said they feared that, "if the United States were to remain silent, BP later may urge that its arguments had assumed the status of agreed facts." End of quote. BP has an obligation to its shareholders to make its liability as small as possible and that is what they are doing. The DOJ has a responsibility to get the max for the people, which is what they have always been doing. This is just legal maneuvering, blow by blow stuff. Jytdog (talk) 16:22, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, thanks for clarifying that your position is that because all that stuff was in the source materials it didn't have to be mentioned in the Wiki article. That's what I thought, but I just wanted to be sure.

"Legal maneuvering, blow by blow stuff"? That's your opinion. We just have to reflect what's in the reliable sources and not what any particular Wiki editor thinks. I know, you're the expert, and the rest of us (particularly me) are morons, but that's how it has to be. Coretheapple (talk) 16:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Core my understanding is that you based the "going for the max" content on the August DOJ filing. Is that accurate? Jytdog (talk) 16:33, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not accurate. Nowhere did I insert anything about "going for the max." The sentence on "stiffest fines possible" is from an article from Feb 2013 at the commencement of the oil spill trial. It's easy to find the source for that sentence; just look at the footnote. Coretheapple (talk) 16:36, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I see, so my understanding was wrong. Thanks for pointing me to the obvious thing I should have looked at. my bad. I can admit when I am wrong. And oh please pardon me for using a brief slang phrase to describe going for the "stiffest fines possible". The source is covering the immediately pre-trial posturing tactics that go on in every litigation. It is still an absurd detail to include. of course DOJ is going for the max. of course BP will try to minimize its liability. It is blow by blow stuff. Not important. It doesn't tell the reader anything that is not painfully obvious. Now if in reality the DOJ said "oh, we intend to treat BP with kid gloves in this trial" and BP said "Oh, in this trial we want to pay as much as possible to atone for the terrible thing we did" this would be Significant. But in the real world, if they saw eye to eye enough, there would have been a settlement already. You can leave this, it is not worth fighting about with you.Jytdog (talk) 16:48, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

It would be pretrial posturing if this was a traffic accident lawsuit. But this is more like the civil trial that followed the OJ Simpson prosecution, except that Simpson was acquitted while BP was convicted. BP has already pleaded guilty to criminal charges stemming from the very same acts that are the subject of the criminal trial. So no, I don't think that we should whitewash this particular aspect of the proceedings. Coretheapple (talk) 16:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Already said I am not arguing with you on keeping this or not. And I am not whitewashing. It is not fair. Discussions about weight are honest differences of judgement. Jytdog (talk) 17:49, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

We're not talking about "weight." We're talking about necessary information being omitted from the article on specious grounds. Coretheapple (talk) 18:24, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

whether the detail is ncecessay is exactly about weight. Reasonable, good faith people can differ on weight. Please stop violating the AGF policy. Jytdog (talk) 18:42, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I have no interest in your motives for your particular actions and I have no idea what they are. However, your removal of significant detail for reasons that make little sense, combined with your insults and your denigration of other editors as "environmentalists" and "ignorant," has not made it easy. Coretheapple (talk) 18:56, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

It is not a bad thing to be an environmentalist. Not at all. And it is not bad to be ignorant, either. I am ignorant about a lot of things. These things only become issues if people who are environmentalists, or business people, are too singly focused and won't compromise and start POV-pushing on those issues. And ignorance is only a problem if judgments based on it are pushed too hard and there is no willingness to learn and change. And I do insist that the only thing that 'whitewash' means is POV-pushing, bad faith editing. I told you before that i completely agree that bad things need to be in the article and I pushed for the end to "quick delete" so there would be room to add it (remember?). But good faith disputes are possible over the level of detail. I'm repeating myself. Should stop. Jytdog (talk) 19:22, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

OK. I don't want to repeat myself either. I just wanted to convey to you the message that while you may have a self-image as being a neutral arbiter, you tend at times to project a level of condescension that undercuts that image, and can tend to raise concerns among other editors as to whether you are contributing in good faith. Please take this as a friendly remark, nothing more. Just to be clear, I'm not at all offended by any of your remarks, including the one that I was moved to delete from my user talk page. Coretheapple (talk) 19:28, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 19:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

My overall thoughts on the issue

The problem that I'm seeing here in this article is a difficult one to address because it is part of a larger problem seen throughout the encyclopedia. Traditional encyclopedias have never devoted as much of individual articles to controversies for very good reason. Controversies receive significant coverage in news media because they are interesting to read. Nobody cares about the day to day operations of BP, but they'll go to a news website to read about the latest scandal or economic disaster related to the company. That information is perfect for newspapers, but encyclopedias are reference works. We shouldn't ignore these, and it's appropriate to have articles on the controversies, but the amount of prose we devote to this is not supposed to be more than a broad mention of the fact of the issue's existance, especially since we use summary style. Nowhere is this more important than in the lead. We currently devote 150 of 528 words in the lead (or 28.4%) to a paragraph about controversies. That is wholly inappropriate. BP is over 100 years old, there is absolutely no way that controversial information makes up almost 30% of a broad overview of the company. Ryan Vesey 03:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I think you will find that many here agree with you. I find myself defending BP here, not because I have any connection with them or special love for them but because the article has become a soapbox for anti-BP sentiment. The standard rules for sourcing seem to have been abandoned and any news report, from wherever, is accepted as a reliable source for sweeping statements about the company as a whole.

I recognise that mention of controversies is the norm for WP and I would certainly expect to see something about major incidents such as the DWH disaster here. Unfortunately, the argument being used here is that because we somehow 'know' that BP are bad lot we must express this in the volume of negative text about them. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:40, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I would definitely agree that there's too much about the controversies in the lede, so I trimmed out the last few sentences giving details of current events. The details should be in the article, but putting details of recent events in the lede is undue emphasis IMO. Geoffrey.landis (talk) 15:46, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect information and repeated linkage

By one of the latest addition the sentence "In 2000, Atlantic Richfield Company (ARCO) sold its Carson, California refinery to BP." This information is not correct as ARCO was acquired by BP, not the refinery was sold. This information is provided in the 'History' section.

Second problem is that all this environment and safety subsections are developed as mini (or even not so mini) articles. In addition to fragmentation of the text it has resulted with a practise that editors are trying to format these subsections as separate article, that means linking names and terms, already linked in the article, in every separate subsection. According to WP:REPEATLINK, a term should be linked, generally, at most once in an article's lead, perhaps once again in the main article body, and perhaps once at first occurrence in each infobox, table, caption, and footnote. Even within these general limits, the choice of whether or not to repeat a link should consider whether the added value of linking a particular occurrence outweighs the consequent dilution of the value of other links. Beagel (talk) 04:46, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

If it's incorrect, why didn't you fix it? Coretheapple (talk) 04:56, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

First, to avoid any potential misinterpretation of my action. Second, I disagree with the whole addition for reasons what I have stated at this talk page several times (creation of new fragmented multiparagraph sections about any incident one could find). Beagel (talk) 05:13, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Beagel, I fixed it. About linking, I try to consider what will work best for the reader than go by any hard and fast rules. In the case of linking ARCO, it was linked in the history section but I doubt that a person reading the article would remember much about it. But I added the source and removed the link as it is probably better. Gandydancer (talk) 13:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Way forward–example of FA class article?

After the last days actions it seems that the common understanding of WP:DUE will unlikely achieved. As a way forward, I still return to the idea proposed by Uzma Gamal and discussed here but which unfortunately achieved minimal attention. As Microsoft is the only FA-class article about any major multinational company and (and it has went through the FA review which is a quite hard process) maybe we should follow the Microsoft practice to resolve the undue weight issue. In the Microsoft article there is a summary section called 'Criticism', which summarizes Criticism of Microsoft article. Maybe there should be ] (or something similar) article which is summarized in BP article. This will resolve the undue weight issue as it would be possible to provide more detailed information in the Critics that here without violating WP:DUE. Beagel (talk) 05:04, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

That sounds an excellent idea to me. I have not even looked at the Microsoft article yet but the principle of using a FA-class article on a large multinational company as a guide seems a sound one. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:34, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

We have to be careful to avoid a POV fork... WP:CFORK Jytdog (talk) 13:48, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

That is easy - have no 'Criticism of BP' article. The FA status of Microsoft is in no way dependent on the existence of the Criticism of Microsoft article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Ha ha. But not really funny. Editors who are critical of a company insist that the criticisms be represented well. This was solved at the Microsoft article by what I can only assume (since it reached FA status) that the summary left enough criticism in the main article, and that the forked Criticism article was balanced enough, that they both became stable, which is a key criterion for FA. We are really far from a consensus on weight, and I sense that there is no way that the environmentally-oriented editors will settle for there being only brief summary statements here with no extended discussion somewhere. Even where we already have extended subarticles (eg DWH matters), the discussion of those matters here is still growing and the enviro-editors even write that the subarticles don't matter -- only this one does. The lack of consensus on weight in this article is still the key issue holding us back. Jytdog (talk) 14:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

It was not intended as a joke. The Microsoft article shows how an encyclopedic article in a large multinational company should be written. The opinions of the environmentally-oriented editors are irrelevant to WP's primary purpose, which is to be an encyclopedia.

The title of this article is 'BP' and it should be modelled on what is generally accepted as the highest standard in WP, the Featured article, a relevant example of which is Microsoft. There is no obligation whatever to have an extended discussion or mention of environmental or safety issues here. Of course if some users what to start a page called 'Criticism of BP' they are free to do so. Even then, that new page must present a neutral POV and not be a soapbox for anti BP sentiment. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:58, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry but you missed my point. You cannot reach FA unless the article is stable, and this article will not be stable until we reach consensus on weight. I agree that the Microsoft article might be a useful model - let's see if any of those who want more detail on the negatives in this article would agree. The problem, though, is that the question about how weight to give something like DWH is not "criticism" per se -- it is a question of how much weight to give objectively bad things the company has done. Jytdog (talk) 15:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

The stability criterion for an FA is no reason to compromise on encyclopedic quality. The DWH incident was the largest marine spill in history and the biggest disaster in the history of BP, both for themselves and others so, of course, it should be given some weight in this article, but in an encyclopedic manner. The facts speak for themselves, there is no need to embellish them with media speculation and sensationalising.

Regarding those who want more detail on the negatives, the question they must explain why the detail is required. Are the details important facts about the company in question or are they there to make some kind of point by volume of text? Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:01, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

While I might support using the Microsoft article as a basic model, I don't think the comparison follows thru on one basic issue. Has Microsft ever expienced the type of calamity that BP did with DSH? Maybe Microsoft had to pay a $17+ Billion dollar fine? If so, how did the editors of that article handle it? Maybe a better choice would be one of the other Oil Industry Company articles. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Heh, one can argue that Windows 8 was a disaster! But I'd say no, in general, Microsoft would not be a valid role model. Totally different business, totally different kinds of consequences from its actions. The remark about "criticism" is correct; we're not dealing with that level of controversy but something different. Coretheapple (talk) 19:35, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Also it's correct that this article is not stable. There are NPOV tags on it and outstanding issues, including whether the environmental aspects have been soft-peddled. I was deeply concerned by the omission of the guilty plea in 2006. There may be more omissions like that. Really premature to talk about this as a featured article. Coretheapple (talk) 19:39, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be some misunderstandings. Some of these things were explained earlier this year in the original discussion linked in the first posting of this thread; however, I am more than happy to explain again if this would help to facilitate finding the way forward.

• The Microsoft article was proposed as an example for a reason that this is the only FA-class article about major multinational companies. There is no other FA-class major multinationals articles nor articles about oil companies. Alltogether, so far only 13 company articles have achieved the FA status.
• The are 91 GA-class company articles. No major multinationals and only one oil company (Gulf Oil). The Gulf Oil article does not have any critics, controversies etc section.
• There seems to be confusion between nominating article for FA and taking FA article as an example of way forward. It is true that the article is not at the FA-level yet and it is not stable. However, how this prevent us to agree the structure which could be acceptable for the FA article?
• Arguments that Microsoft has not done something like DWH and that there is no serious ongoing controversy at Microsoft are correct in some way but not exactly. That's true that there has been no case reaching to $17 billion (but make clear–there is no verdict yet); however, Microsoft has been fined by the European Commission at least four times for its market dominance business practices with the total amount of fines being about €2 billion. The last one one was only in March this year and was €561 million.

If you could propose better FA-class example, let discuss it. (O. J. Simpson is not FA or GA). Beagel (talk) 05:38, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

What are we to do???

This question was posed to jtdog earlier but received no response. Hopefully the group can help to answer this query. The meme continues that any editors who find it prudent to add "negative" content to this article have a bias problem.

My question is, if the subject isn't necessarily "neutral", what are we to do?

A few times on this page, the question about whether we have RS for a comparison of BP with other similar oil companies, as well as RS about BP's entire history (to help determine weight/color for the article) was raised. My search engine found the following articles; they are not cherry-picked. If these are considered RS, how is one to integrate any content without being categorized as biased? Indeed, how does one update this article at all without such a judgment? Neutral and dry, business-based content does not need updating, it is being taken care of by the BP Misplaced Pages outreach team. petrarchan47tc 21:36, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

NTY

DemNow

NTY

Re entire history

Guardian

HuffPo

Must be true then, I read it in the papers. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:47, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Your continued hostility for and refusal to reference WP:RS needs to stop if you expect to be respected as a Misplaced Pages editor and participant of this talk page. petrarchan47tc 21:51, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Martin you should take a look at the "risk factors" and "pending litigation" sections of the BP annual report in all their grandeur. They make the media coverage seem timid in comparison. Coretheapple (talk) 22:14, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I was about to reply, "Must be true, I read in in the BP Annual Report". But I see that Editor Coretheapple has made the same point. When viewed from their polarized positions, opposing editors are viewed as the opposition and therefore must be opposed. When viewed as collaborators at work at creating a Quality Article they are viewed as fellow editors and must be assisted. ```Buster Seven Talk 23:36, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear about something, annual reports have a much higher standard of verification than news articles as it is actually illegal to lie on an annual report and they are independently audited. Arturo at BP (talk) 16:23, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

The facts and numbers have a high standard of verification, Yes, but not the words. The words in an Annual Report can deceive without being illegal. ```Buster Seven Talk 19:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

That is true, and also annual reports are a primary source, and are subject to the restrictions of WP:PRIMARY. I think the annual reports are useful because they indicate how the oil spill and attendant litigation are viewed gravely by BP, by dint of their potential for a material impact on the company. Coretheapple (talk) 20:41, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Content-based comments

• I think that the sources listed under the bullet points at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:BP/Archive_8#Proposed_RfC address what you've raised, P. I've already utilized a couple of them. They are secondary sources of unimpeachable quality. btw, I thought I was being innovative proposing an RfC, but I see that previous editors have gone down that road before, and the article still has been systematically whitewashed. Really sad. Coretheapple (talk) 22:09, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry petrarchan, what question did I not answer? There are so many conversations going on - I have tried to be responsive to you. With respect to the list you provide (and the one that Core linked to.. all but one suffer from WP:RECENTISM and all of them are about BP in the US. (the one exception is the guardian article which is really biased... I am surprised your brought it up) This list - its recentism and US focus -- is the bias of your search engine. This is what search engines find. (btw, do they not teach research skills in school anymore? has our scholarly ability degenerated to the point where google has actually replaced the reference librarian for conducting research that matters -- that will be fought over in a public forum? the humanities are really dying.) Yes without a doubt BP had a bad ten years in the US and yes it was entirely due to underinvestment and bad management. Yes that is worthy of mention. What the "opposition" keeps asking (and in this case I ask it too!) is this: how do you justify putting this much weight on what happened in the US over the past ten years? I have never seen an answer to that other than "look here are reliable sources". The opposition says, these suffer from recentism and none are global, and the response is again, "here are reliable sources that google found for me." that is as far as the "conversation" ever gets before it gets nasty and personal. The question is about weight -- how do you justify giving so much weight to content from these sources? Maybe if I put the question this way. A guy from India reads this article, and comes to this looooong section all about BP in the US. Sees where this is going, closes the article and goes to look for better information, muttering "More f-ing US cultural imperalism. Who gives a rat's ass? Nothing - NOTHING - about India or much about Asia at all. grr" What do you say to that guy? Jytdog (talk) 01:41, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

"Add content to the article." Coretheapple (talk) 02:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

By the way, Jytdog, if you feel that there is a crying need for text about Asia/India, I'm sure that nobody would squawk if you added it before that hypothetical Indian reader materializes. Coretheapple (talk) 02:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

How do i justify "so much weight"? How much weight did I suggest?

These are the sources that come up for me when do I search for the questions you and Martin raised: how does BP compare to other companies, and how do events in its history rate in terms of importance. I would love to see sources you consider worthy. We could look at all of them together and go from there. It's strange that I feel as if I've just been kicked in the shin for bringing my search results.

My question wasn't rhetorical, I asked "What are we to do???" (with these sources and their content). I guess your answer is to disregard all of them wholesale, and that I should be ashamed to even bring up the Guardian article. I have yet see evidence that your proclamations of being a very balanced and NPOV editor are true, tbh. You categorized me as an environmentalist who wishes to drench the article in ugly details, and commented in the "Wind" section of this talk page that BP wasn't getting out of the AE biz, you didn't *think*, because they still have some bio-fuels. Both of these positions were based an assumption and a complete disregard for facts. Why would you comment on content when you haven't even looked at any references? I again showed you these references and you ignored me. I believed you that you were here to bring balance, as you claimed, and that because of your past with the Monsanto article, you had special skills in this area. Your actions, however, tell a different story. They are divisive and little cutting remarks make it into many of your comments, unless they are directed at Beagle or Rangoon11, then it's "LOVE" (literally). When I think of an NPOV-focused editor, it is someone who is very willing to look at all RS - by Wiki standards (your comments about the sources above are not in keeping with any guidelines) and to add content in a balanced way, regardless of which 'side' it falls on. Please bring sources we can work with, and let's go from there. petrarchan47tc 02:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I thought your question was great. My answer is that these sources (with the exception of the guardian article) are fine and should not be ignored - but they are only good as far as they go; they are not sufficient in scope to provide insight into the company as whole, and if we want to give them appropriate weight then we need to find sources that actually address the broader record in space and time. To get them we have to go outside the top internet hits. To work on the Monsanto article I had to spend hours reading about the company as a whole, from all over the place on the internet and outside of it. I have been doing the same with BP. I have not yet found great sources on their global safety record - I did find a couple that address their global corporate social responsibility record (both by different authors at the same org - here http://www.fni.no/doc&pdf/FNI-R0704.pdf and here http://www.fni.no/doc&pdf/FNI-R0602.pdf) but these are not dead on, on safety. (You are right on the biofuels thing btw, I need to get back up there are retract. sorry for not doing it sooner, will do it now) Jytdog (talk) 13:16, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Petrarchan - I apologized for mischaracterizing you as an environmentalist. Are we not past that issue? I feel like we are building a relationship and would like to be able to address things as they arise and move forward. If we cannot lay things to rest then there is little point in my responding when you criticize me... Jytdog (talk) 20:05, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

You've made general comments about "environmentalist" editors, not just relating to Petrarchan specifically, and also fumed about "ignorant" editors, berating me on that point on more than one occasion. Honestly, I don't care what you do or say, it doesn't offend me in the least, but they don't help your credibility in the slightest. Coretheapple (talk) 20:54, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't care either. My point was clear (it had nothing to do with hurt feewings): bias has been established by this categorization and the other behaviours I pointed out (or, "criticisms"). I've also seen numerous occasions that prove comments are not being read nor is activity on this Talk page taken seriously. I'm done wasting my time communicating in this way. petrarchan47tc 04:10, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Hey all, I am done working on this article. I have made mistakes, and have acknowledged them and apologized. But there is no room to move forward. Good luck with this article - I mean that. Jytdog (talk) 11:12, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Why is there still discussion in this forum

Here's another major question I've need to ask. Why are we still discussing the article in this forum? We've got a couple of POV pushers whose goal is to portray BP in as negative of a light as possible, we've got people attempting to maintain a neutral article, and we've probably got some people who really like BP and want to make it look good as well. This isn't an issue that will ever be adequately resolved on the talk page, it needs to go to dispute resolution of some form. Ryan Vesey 02:34, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

It really is time to take this issue to the proper noticeboard, would you be happy to do so?174.71.84.85 (talk) 02:37, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I left a message for a knowledgeable admin, User:Mr. Stradivarius. He'll be able to point us towards the correct forum. Ryan Vesey 02:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Another RfC? We have one freshly started. Aren't RfCs part of the dispute resolution process? Coretheapple (talk) 02:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll be interested to see if and how someone can help! Jytdog (talk) 03:46, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Ryan, your help would be most welcome. If you want to see what this article should look like, have a look at Microsoft, which is an FA. It look like a corporate promotional brochure compared with this article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:24, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I also look forward to the learning process of direct, sanctioned administrator involvement in the creation of a quality article.```Buster Seven Talk 18:59, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh, me too. Gandydancer (talk)

"Controversy emerged"

We currently say "Controversy emerged in 2013 over the amount of content from BP that had entered the article". How can we, in good conscience, include that in the article when our sources are both online news sources of little importance . This isn't an issue being reported by major news organizations like the BBC, CNN, Fox, or the New York Times. If it isn't being discussed, it doesn't have the significance required to be in the article and violates WP:UNDUE. Ryan Vesey 02:42, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

That began as a separate section, which I removed, but then (as is usual around here), I was immediately reverted. As a compromise it became part of a larger section that you see now. This actually turned out to be one of the less contentious disputes on this page. Coretheapple (talk) 02:45, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Removed text and misinterpretation of sources

Recent removed text provides an excellent example of how sources are being misapplied and misinterpreted to add negative material to this article.

The removed text makes the sweeping statement, 'BP has one of the worst safety records of any major oil company that operates in the United States'. It continues to justify this by saying, 'Between 2007 and 2010, BP refineries in Ohio and Texas...'.

The cited source, which is a reputable news source says, 'BP's safety violations far outstrip its fellow oil companies. According to the Center for Public Integrity, in the last three years, BP refineries in Ohio and Texas have accounted for 97 percent of the "egregious, willful" violations handed out by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)'.

This statement is a media opinion based on a report by another organisation, the 'Center for Public Integrity' an investigative journalism organization whose stated mission is "to reveal abuses of power, corruption and dereliction of duty by powerful public and private institutions in order to cause them to operate with honesty, integrity, accountability and to put the public interest first." and which has has been characterized as a "progressive" and "liberal group." Not necessarily a bad thing but hardly a neutral source. This report was based on the writers understanding of information published by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. We have no idea what else the OSHA might have said, all we have is one piece of data, chosen to make a point.

Now let is look at what is claimed:

What does the report tell us about BP from 1909 to 2008? Absolutely nothing.
What does the report tell us about BP from 2011 to 2013? Nothing.
What does the report tell us about BP's activity outside the US? Nothing.
What does the report tell us about BP's activities in any of the US states outside the two mentioned? Nothing.
What does the report tell us about BP's exploration and production, drilling, distribution, marketing, petrochemicals, power generation and trading activities? Nothing.

To sum up, we have a news report about a report about a report referring to a tiny fraction of BP's total activity (even in the US) which is cited to support the statement, BP has one of the worst safety records of any major oil company that operates in the United States'

It should not be necessary to point this out to editors here, who should be assessing references for their suitability and strength in supporting the statements made but, regrettably, it looks like it is. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:02, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Martin. Actually I watched the video, and it was very good direct reporting - you mischaracterize it. They talked to a lot of people, looked at how BP was spending money, etc. The main reporter also produced a book. However, I agree that the content generated from this source is too general and sweeping. In my mind it would be a great source to justify a more limited statement along the lines of: "BP's operations in the US in the 2000's suffered a string high profile industrial accidents, including the Deepwater Horizon explosion and oil spill, and many safety violations by OSHA and other regulatory bodies, which were brought about by an emphasis on cost-cutting and growth, and a concomitant under-investment in infrastructure and in risk management policies and management." with a following sentence along the lines of: "As a result, BP was compelled by the US government to pay record breaking fines, invest in infrastructure, put strong risk management policies and management in place, and undergo monitoring." (sourced appropriately) This is a) true, and b) importantly in the real world, there are editors here to whom what happened in that time and place is very important and the page will never become stable if we don't reach a compromise - which will include an explicit statement like this and very likely more discussion of the details (along the lines currently in the article, but perhaps more compressed). That statement would best be part of a section-lead paragraph that did cover the whole span in time and space of BP's operations and would have comparisons to its peers. btw, I have been having a very hard time finding sources that address BP's broader safety record - especially globally, and especially historically. my sense is this is not available on the internet and I am going to have to hit the library. But do you know of any? You keep (rightly) mentioning we should do that, so I wonder if you know of any so I could help generate content. thx! Jytdog (talk) 12:30, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your attempt to find some middle ground here but there is no way that news sources can be used to make even the toned down statements that you propose. It simply is not the purpose of the media to make detailed comparisons of any kind between companies; they have neither the will, nor the purpose, nor the expertise to do this.

Cost-cutting is a red herring - innuendo. It is the job of commercial companies to cut costs and maximise profits. The question is whether BP took more improper risks and had more accidents that comparable companies. The real answer to this question is likely to be given in a very long and rather boring document full of statistics. I imagine it would be produced by an international, or governmental body of some kind with expertise in the business. Unfortunately, I do not know where to find such a document or even if there is one but, until somebody finds an authoritative source we must say nothing.

What is the purpose of your proposed wording? It seems to me an attempt to appease those who want to increase the volume of negative text in order to create a bad impression. Your proposal, "As a result, BP was compelled by the US government to pay record breaking fines, invest in infrastructure, put strong risk management policies and management in place, and undergo monitoring." adds little in the way of facts to what we already have. We already state the value of the fines, which the US government always force you to pay. There rest is so vague as to effectively say nothing. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Record breaking fines is nothing? Undergo additional (more than than normal Industry-wide) monitoring is nothing? Being "compelled to invest in infrastructure" is not normal business practice. I seem to recall that the USDJ said something to the effect of "BP was grossly negligent in causing the DeepWater Horizon explosion and subsequent spill". Would that not be in the court decree? I'm sure there must be some reference that can achieve enough broad-based support to provide our reader the facts as Jdog presents them. Our task is to find the necessary references. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:55, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi buster. The statement by DOJ about gross negligence is litigation-posturing, at this point. Not a reliable source as to whether BP actually was. The court may find BP to have been grossly negligent. It might not. But there are sources to support the summary statement I drafted. Jytdog (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

It is, however, a reliable source of the DOJ's position, and the DOJ's position, and its stated determination to extract maximum penalties, is material to this article. It would be to the article on any company. I think that your continual efforts to minimize the impact of this trial are not constructive, considering that a $16 billion settlement has been discussed.. Misplaced Pages editors should reflect what is in reliable secondary sources and not utilize our supposed "expertise" to exclude such facts from the article. Coretheapple (talk) 20:49, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

The DOJ's objective in extracting the maximum penalty has nothing what ever to do with BP. It is the job of the DOJ to press for maximum penalties in cases like this. It is in no way special to BP. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

It has everything to do with BP. You're not making sense. Coretheapple (talk) 21:58, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Martin, thanks for continuing the dialogue. Something like the text I proposed is intended as a summary statement in the lead paragraph of the section, and therefore necessarily going over the same ground covered in more detail in the section following the lead. So of course it is repetitive and lacks detail; I am not sure why you are criticizing it on those grounds. If you are saying you don't want there to be a lead paragraph for the section, I would be interested in hearing that. Can talk about your other grounds after clarifying this... Jytdog (talk) 20:00, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I do not think it is normal to have a summarising lead paragraph at the head of each section, but also the language is all wrong, 'record breaking', 'compelled by the government'? Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, if there is no lead paragraph for the section then a summarizing sentence like this doesn't have much use in the IA section. No more to talk about for now... thanks for talking though! (i have a draft of such a lead paragraph i have been working on, btw - it was started by rangoon and abandoned some time ago.) Jytdog (talk) 23:54, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Have a look again at the Microsoft article. There is nothing like this 'criticism by volume of text' there. That is the example we should be following. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there is consensus yet that the Microsoft article should be our template for reconstruction. It may turn out to be but let's not assume that a decision has been made. ```Buster Seven Talk 18:55, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Microsoft is an FA. That means it has passed the most rigorous quality test that we have in WP. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:44, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes Martin, and a FA because there is no serious ongoing controversy at Microsoft. I can't see that happening here anytime soon. Gandydancer (talk) 22:17, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

That is because editors at that article, wishing to produce an article if high quality, have stuck to WP policy and added only verifiable facts in an encyclopedic manner, rather than filling the article with media opinion. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:51, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Texas City information improvements requested

Recently there have been a few edits to this article regarding the Texas City refinery, including the addition of a new paragraph on a recently filed lawsuit. This information was added in the "Air pollution violations" section, although BP was not charged with any violation for the incident in question. The addition repeats the allegations in the lawsuit, which without context creates the impression that BP was in violation of air pollution laws. As media reporting at the time explained, the gas that was released was odorous but was not dangerous (see this StateImpact report and this ABC News article). No charges of air pollution were brought against BP. As it is written, the information in the article is misleading to readers and places undue weight on this incident, particularly since the lawsuit has only just been filed.

Can other editors look at this addition and consider removing or amending it? If some of this information should remain, would it be better placed in the "Refinery fatalities, safety violations, and leaks" section?

Texas City Refinery

On the same topic, I have been looking at the information under the "2005 Texas City Refinery Explosion" and would like to request an update to be added to here. Specifically, following the Clean Air Act sentence, I suggest adding this sentence or some language that includes this detail:

In March 2012, the probation was lifted when the U.S. Justice Department stated that the company had addressed the most serious of the safety issues related to the accident and otherwise satisfied the terms of its agreement.

"...fatalities, safety violations, and leaks

I would also like to request a change to the wording in the "2006–2010: Refinery fatalities, safety violations, and leaks" section to provide some more detail and clarify information regarding the lawsuits. The additional detail needed is described below:

Current:

In June 2012, over 50,000 Texas City residents joined a class-action suit against BP, alleging they got sick in 2010 from the 41-day emissions release from the refinery. Texas has also sued BP over the release of emissions. BP says the release harmed no one.

Clarification:

More detail recommended re Texas suing BP: In August 2010, the Texas Attorney General filed a lawsuit seeking civil penalties against BP Products North America in relation to the leak. As of June 2012 should replace “In June 2010” in sentence describing class-action suit and same source currently in article can be used.

References

1. Abrahm Lustgarten (12 March 2012). "Feds Let BP Off Probation Despite Pending Safety Violations". ProPublica. Retrieved 17 April 2013.
2. More than 50,000 Texas City residents sue BP | abc13.com
3. Monica Hatcher (9 August 2010). "State sues BP over pollution in Texas City". Houston Chronicle. Retrieved 17 April 2013.

Safety and Health violations

As a separate point, the new "Safety and health violations" seems out of place in the "Environmental record" section and is very detailed. Perhaps editors could also look at this. Thanks. Arturo at BP (talk) 23:15, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

To facilitate editor awareness, please mark the changes you make with the done tag. It really helps to inform all editors as to the status (open or done) of Arturo's requests.

Can you please point out any factual inaccuracies in the section, along with references to support your contention that the statements are inaccurate? There is ongoing litigation going on and it concerns me that we make the extensive changes that you describe, without clear inaccuracies, based on the views of one party to the litigation. In fairness I think that someone should contact the plaintiffs to this litigation to see if they share the BP rep's views of this section, and to ascertain if there are, in addition to any errors pointed out by the BP rep, any other material matters that were omitted and need to be mentioned. I think that we should obtain such input prior to considering any of these changes. Whether or not such input is obtainable, unless there are clear inaccuracies, not just alleged "misimpressions" and the opinion of BP that it is undue weight, I don't think that we should act on this request concerning ongoing litigation. Coretheapple (talk) 23:24, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Considering that the BP rep took several weeks, (or was it months?) to get back to editors on the Prudhom Bay spill information, I just can't see a reason for any rush here. I am still trying to untangle that mess and expect no assist from BP. If corporate editors are going to be allowed to offer their requests, they should be responsible to offer answers to requests of their corporation as well. And those requests should be answered in a timely manner. Gandydancer (talk) 00:05, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

@Core. The point you make about the views of only one side of the litigation is valid. I would hope no changes occur until we can come to agreement as to what to do. ```Buster Seven Talk 00:16, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think that we need to bend over backwards to be even-handed, which means not altering the "spin" of an article on litigation at the request of one side or another. If there any factual inaccuracies it is one thing; inaccuracies should be corrected immediately. But one side or another not liking the slant of a section, not feeling it is getting proper weight as the BP rep says here, is another matter entirely. An independent editor created this section and I believe it was edited by other independent editors thereafter. The text should not now be shaped by one party to the litigation. Coretheapple (talk) 03:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I moved this text from its own section to a subsection - but I agree this doesn't make perfect sense. Should it be its own section? I also agree it could be trimmed, but this is before having read it carefully. It just looks more meaty than what we usually add. I noticed also that the Gulf spill section (except the coverage of court cases) is dwarfed by both this and the Prudhoe Bay spill. I wonder if this is well-balanced coverage given what we find in RS. Imbalance happens naturally after an active editing period. We could take a moment to do a 'big picture' review of the article, imo, and expand/update the first section of the Gulf spill. petrarchan47tc 04:01, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I was the one that wrote the Safety and health section. I did not feel that it fit under the Environmental section and put it under a third heading but another editor moved it to the environmental section. I have nothing against shortening it but since it does not have its own article it tends to be a little longer. I'll copy it here to see what other editors think about the depth of coverage:

===Safety and health violations===

Citing conditions similar to those that resulted in the 2005 Texas City Refinery explosion, on April 25, 2006, the U.S. Department of Labor's Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) fined BP more than $2.4 million for unsafe operations at the company's Oregon, Ohio refinery. An OSHA inspection resulted in 32 per-instance willful citations including locating people in vulnerable buildings among the processing units, failing to correct de-pressurization deficiencies and deficiencies with gas monitors, and failing to prevent the use of non-approved electrical equipment in locations in which hazardous concentrations of flammable gases or vapors may exist. BP was further fined for neglecting to develop shutdown procedures and designate responsibilities and to establish a system to promptly address and resolve recommendations made after an incident when a large feed pump failed three years prior to 2006. Penalties were also issued for five serious violations, including failure to develop operating procedures for a unit that removes sulfur compound; failure to ensure that operating procedures reflect current operating practice in the Isocracker Unit; failure to resolve process hazard analysis recommendations; failure to resolve process safety management compliance audit items in a timely manner; and failure to periodically inspect pressure piping systems. Here's the OSHA report: Gandydancer (talk) 10:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

1. 2006 - 04/25/2006 - OSHA Fines BP $2.4 Million for Safety and Health Violations
2. "BP fined $2.4M for refinery safety problems". CNN.com. 25 April 2006. Retrieved 16 April 2013.

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