| Revision as of 17:29, 29 April 2013 editGregbard (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers90,738 edits r← Previous edit | Revision as of 19:20, 29 April 2013 edit undoOrlady (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Autopatrolled, Administrators94,578 edits →Misleading edit summaries: moreNext edit → | ||
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| ::::::::The ] is finally an accurate description of county government, as ] is patently incorrect for this purpose. The title that would match your description -- ] -- will never exist, because it's wrong. The "for open meetings and liability purposes" qualifier is pedantically true from a legalistic standpoint, but trying to ram that through as a title for a category or describing county government bodies as "agencies" of county government in circular fashion is wrong. The scholars you refer to are not agreeing with you; You're misinterpreting statements that show that there is some vague agency status that exists for open meetings and liability purposes but that does not have any relevance here, as Orlady has thoroughly demonstrated. Consensus is the Misplaced Pages standard, not the truth you believe to see. ] (]) 16:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | ::::::::The ] is finally an accurate description of county government, as ] is patently incorrect for this purpose. The title that would match your description -- ] -- will never exist, because it's wrong. The "for open meetings and liability purposes" qualifier is pedantically true from a legalistic standpoint, but trying to ram that through as a title for a category or describing county government bodies as "agencies" of county government in circular fashion is wrong. The scholars you refer to are not agreeing with you; You're misinterpreting statements that show that there is some vague agency status that exists for open meetings and liability purposes but that does not have any relevance here, as Orlady has thoroughly demonstrated. Consensus is the Misplaced Pages standard, not the truth you believe to see. ] (]) 16:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::You are hopeless. Most of those references when taken at face value clearly and unambiguously support my claim, however most of them are not scholarly sources. The scholars do, in fact, agree with me. Your nonsense about trying to portray my view as legalese, or semantic in nature is cruelly and pathetically ironic. County government is only "local" government in a semantic sense. Campaigns and elections aren't governing, they are means of accountability. The actual government is state government. You need only to read up on the tenth amendment to realize this. Have any counties legalized marijuana or permitted more lenient gun laws than their state has permitted? How about elections? They are not federalized in the US, they are reserved to the state. So who is in charge of elections where YOU are? Oh right, the county elections officer.... who reports to the Secretary of what? Right. Secretary of State. You basically are a religious believer, in the face of overwhelming evidence. ] (]) 17:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | :::::::::You are hopeless. Most of those references when taken at face value clearly and unambiguously support my claim, however most of them are not scholarly sources. The scholars do, in fact, agree with me. Your nonsense about trying to portray my view as legalese, or semantic in nature is cruelly and pathetically ironic. County government is only "local" government in a semantic sense. Campaigns and elections aren't governing, they are means of accountability. The actual government is state government. You need only to read up on the tenth amendment to realize this. Have any counties legalized marijuana or permitted more lenient gun laws than their state has permitted? How about elections? They are not federalized in the US, they are reserved to the state. So who is in charge of elections where YOU are? Oh right, the county elections officer.... who reports to the Secretary of what? Right. Secretary of State. You basically are a religious believer, in the face of overwhelming evidence. ] (]) 17:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | ||
| == Misleading edit summaries == | |||
| Please refrain from making inaccurate and misleading edit summaries, as in , which was inaccurately identified as having reverted vandalism. --] (]) 17:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| :Orlady, by this posting you are disrespecting Gregbard's explicit request to you not to post further at his Talk page. I noticed some of your previous interactions and don't like what I see. A relatively new user should be encouraged and given some guidance, perhaps, not goaded and disrespected. If you come across as arbitrary and illegitimate, that breeds disrespect by this editor, probably leading the editor into trouble with other editors, too. But your disrespect is part of the problem, part of goading the editor on. Please refrain, yourself. --]]] 18:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
| ::Doncram, Gregbard is hardly a newbie needing your protection. He registered here on 3 April 2006 and has over 80,000 total edits. Anyway, if you are interested in defending his honor (and/or telling the world about your opinions of me), you might be interested in ]. --] (]) 19:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC) Furthermore, where else do you think I should have communicated to him about his misleading edit summary? --] (]) 19:20, 29 April 2013 (UTC) | |||
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"You don't seem to know what an 'agency' is."
According to this edit of the article for board of chosen freeholders, I "don't seem to know what an 'agency' is." I do. I have read and re-read the article for government agency and a county government is not an agency of county government. A government agency is defined as "a department of a local or national government responsible for the oversight and administration of a specific function" and this just does not fit, regardless of your determination to make it so. In past discussions you have advanced the position that all of county government is really an agency of state government. That might well be a wonderful technicality, but the issue here is the fact that a board of chosen freeholders is the county government in New Jersey, not an agency of itself as would be a sheriff's department or a county library. Can you point to anything that supports your cliam that a county government is an agency of county government? Alansohn (talk) 12:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- Your board of Freeholders is required to hold open meetings. So why is that? If you ask the counsel for the board, you will discover that the open meetings law for state agencies is the reason why. BTW, if you are relying on Misplaced Pages for your understanding of things, that would suggest that you don't really understand them. Greg Bard (talk) 15:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not relying on Misplaced Pages's definition, I'm demonstrating that Misplaced Pages consensus contradicts your idiosyncratic interpretation. Do you truly believe that because county government is subject to state law it's an agency of itself? Is there anyone here in Misplaced Pages who agrees with you? Why sin't county government listed as a state agency? Alansohn (talk) 15:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not personally responsible for the Misplaced Pages consensus. However, it is my duty to inform you that a county is an agency of the state government. This is the case, in reality, regardless of what the Misplaced Pages consensus is. Please let me correct your mis-impression: I don't believe that a county is "an agency of itself", nor do I believe that a county is an agency of the state government "because county government is subject to state law." I know that a county governing board, such as a county commission, is an agency of the state government because it is only in its capacity as a state agency that it is required to hold open meetings. If it wasn't a state agency, that requirement just wouldn't apply. Unlike everyone else comprising the Misplaced Pages consensus, I am not pulling this fact from my nether regions. This is not an idiosyncratic view among anyone who actually has any education on the subject matter. Here are just a few sources which support my claim: (Alabama,California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Texas, Virginia, Wisconsin) Furthermore, the NACO website itself states that "...early state constitutions generally conceptualized county government as an arm of the state." Among these sources are statements such as "It is well-settled law that counties are state agencies", and "the general rule still is that a county is an arm of the state" ref. So I think what needs to happen, is for people to admit that they are relying on a high school civics, and freshman college level of understanding that they got in those required classes, and also admit that when someone who actually has studied the matter on a graduate level, that despite their strongly held impressions, that probably the person with the graduate level of study probably is, in fact, more credible on those issues. We have a guy who is working on a "PhD. in Appalachian Studies" and a person who has held government jobs as the leaders in that Misplaced Pages consensus, so it is pretty much a case of WP:FAIL. Greg Bard (talk) 16:17, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- The legalisms are interesting but irrelevant. If you are using these sources to argue that a county government is an agency of state government, then a county legislature is a state government agency, and if so why describe a county government as a "county government agency". Even using your mischaracterizations this still makes no sense. Why are county legislatures and sheriff's departments both agencies? You may want to look in the mirror before making accusations of WP:FAIL, when you're trying to ramrod through your own bizarre stance on how to categorize county governments and their agencies. Alansohn (talk) 17:17, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- You presume too much. My interest in placing the boards under "county agencies" is the fact that they don't belong in the parent cat, and they don't belong under the "officials" cat. I have recently created a category just for "legislative bodies", and that should resolve the "agency of itself" issue. So your nitpicking has resulted in some progress, but you still really should drop the attitude and presumption. I'm doing the best that I can, and am receiving no help from the peanut gallery at all. However we will probably now enter into the full conflict about whether or not the "legislative bodies" cat should be under state agencies or not. I find your statement that "legalisms are irrelevant" to be a little shocking. So you don't even deny that my claim is true, just that it is irrelevant, is that the idea? Greg Bard (talk) 00:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- That counties operate under the authority of state government is true, but irrelevant. Your interpretation is that this means that any and all aspects of county government are agencies of state government, a position that has been thoroughly debunked both by me and most notably by Orlady. If what you call "nitpicking" has lead to a more logical category structure, than that may well be the way to go here. Alansohn (talk) 03:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, again, you are presuming. A county governing board is considered a state agency, for open meetings and liability purposes. It isn't about merely "operating under the authority of the state." However a sheriff, a parks department, etc are rightfully "county agencies." I have never claimed otherwise. You don't seem to get the nuances. Reality isn't simple. No one had "debunked" anything! If you are impressed by Orlady's convoluted interpretations, you obviously are not a very critical thinker. She's tap dancing to shoehorn her POV and you fell for it. I'm sorry, but the scholars agree with me, not her. Greg Bard (talk) 05:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- The Category:County governing bodies in the United States is finally an accurate description of county government, as Category:County government agencies in the United States is patently incorrect for this purpose. The title that would match your description -- Category:County government bodies in the United States that are a state agency for open meetings and liability purposes -- will never exist, because it's wrong. The "for open meetings and liability purposes" qualifier is pedantically true from a legalistic standpoint, but trying to ram that through as a title for a category or describing county government bodies as "agencies" of county government in circular fashion is wrong. The scholars you refer to are not agreeing with you; You're misinterpreting statements that show that there is some vague agency status that exists for open meetings and liability purposes but that does not have any relevance here, as Orlady has thoroughly demonstrated. Consensus is the Misplaced Pages standard, not the truth you believe to see. Alansohn (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- You are hopeless. Most of those references when taken at face value clearly and unambiguously support my claim, however most of them are not scholarly sources. The scholars do, in fact, agree with me. Your nonsense about trying to portray my view as legalese, or semantic in nature is cruelly and pathetically ironic. County government is only "local" government in a semantic sense. Campaigns and elections aren't governing, they are means of accountability. The actual government is state government. You need only to read up on the tenth amendment to realize this. Have any counties legalized marijuana or permitted more lenient gun laws than their state has permitted? How about elections? They are not federalized in the US, they are reserved to the state. So who is in charge of elections where YOU are? Oh right, the county elections officer.... who reports to the Secretary of what? Right. Secretary of State. You basically are a religious believer, in the face of overwhelming evidence. Greg Bard (talk) 17:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- The Category:County governing bodies in the United States is finally an accurate description of county government, as Category:County government agencies in the United States is patently incorrect for this purpose. The title that would match your description -- Category:County government bodies in the United States that are a state agency for open meetings and liability purposes -- will never exist, because it's wrong. The "for open meetings and liability purposes" qualifier is pedantically true from a legalistic standpoint, but trying to ram that through as a title for a category or describing county government bodies as "agencies" of county government in circular fashion is wrong. The scholars you refer to are not agreeing with you; You're misinterpreting statements that show that there is some vague agency status that exists for open meetings and liability purposes but that does not have any relevance here, as Orlady has thoroughly demonstrated. Consensus is the Misplaced Pages standard, not the truth you believe to see. Alansohn (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, again, you are presuming. A county governing board is considered a state agency, for open meetings and liability purposes. It isn't about merely "operating under the authority of the state." However a sheriff, a parks department, etc are rightfully "county agencies." I have never claimed otherwise. You don't seem to get the nuances. Reality isn't simple. No one had "debunked" anything! If you are impressed by Orlady's convoluted interpretations, you obviously are not a very critical thinker. She's tap dancing to shoehorn her POV and you fell for it. I'm sorry, but the scholars agree with me, not her. Greg Bard (talk) 05:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- That counties operate under the authority of state government is true, but irrelevant. Your interpretation is that this means that any and all aspects of county government are agencies of state government, a position that has been thoroughly debunked both by me and most notably by Orlady. If what you call "nitpicking" has lead to a more logical category structure, than that may well be the way to go here. Alansohn (talk) 03:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- You presume too much. My interest in placing the boards under "county agencies" is the fact that they don't belong in the parent cat, and they don't belong under the "officials" cat. I have recently created a category just for "legislative bodies", and that should resolve the "agency of itself" issue. So your nitpicking has resulted in some progress, but you still really should drop the attitude and presumption. I'm doing the best that I can, and am receiving no help from the peanut gallery at all. However we will probably now enter into the full conflict about whether or not the "legislative bodies" cat should be under state agencies or not. I find your statement that "legalisms are irrelevant" to be a little shocking. So you don't even deny that my claim is true, just that it is irrelevant, is that the idea? Greg Bard (talk) 00:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- The legalisms are interesting but irrelevant. If you are using these sources to argue that a county government is an agency of state government, then a county legislature is a state government agency, and if so why describe a county government as a "county government agency". Even using your mischaracterizations this still makes no sense. Why are county legislatures and sheriff's departments both agencies? You may want to look in the mirror before making accusations of WP:FAIL, when you're trying to ramrod through your own bizarre stance on how to categorize county governments and their agencies. Alansohn (talk) 17:17, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not personally responsible for the Misplaced Pages consensus. However, it is my duty to inform you that a county is an agency of the state government. This is the case, in reality, regardless of what the Misplaced Pages consensus is. Please let me correct your mis-impression: I don't believe that a county is "an agency of itself", nor do I believe that a county is an agency of the state government "because county government is subject to state law." I know that a county governing board, such as a county commission, is an agency of the state government because it is only in its capacity as a state agency that it is required to hold open meetings. If it wasn't a state agency, that requirement just wouldn't apply. Unlike everyone else comprising the Misplaced Pages consensus, I am not pulling this fact from my nether regions. This is not an idiosyncratic view among anyone who actually has any education on the subject matter. Here are just a few sources which support my claim: (Alabama,California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Texas, Virginia, Wisconsin) Furthermore, the NACO website itself states that "...early state constitutions generally conceptualized county government as an arm of the state." Among these sources are statements such as "It is well-settled law that counties are state agencies", and "the general rule still is that a county is an arm of the state" ref. So I think what needs to happen, is for people to admit that they are relying on a high school civics, and freshman college level of understanding that they got in those required classes, and also admit that when someone who actually has studied the matter on a graduate level, that despite their strongly held impressions, that probably the person with the graduate level of study probably is, in fact, more credible on those issues. We have a guy who is working on a "PhD. in Appalachian Studies" and a person who has held government jobs as the leaders in that Misplaced Pages consensus, so it is pretty much a case of WP:FAIL. Greg Bard (talk) 16:17, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not relying on Misplaced Pages's definition, I'm demonstrating that Misplaced Pages consensus contradicts your idiosyncratic interpretation. Do you truly believe that because county government is subject to state law it's an agency of itself? Is there anyone here in Misplaced Pages who agrees with you? Why sin't county government listed as a state agency? Alansohn (talk) 15:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Misleading edit summaries
Please refrain from making inaccurate and misleading edit summaries, as in this edit, which was inaccurately identified as having reverted vandalism. --Orlady (talk) 17:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- Orlady, by this posting you are disrespecting Gregbard's explicit request to you not to post further at his Talk page. I noticed some of your previous interactions and don't like what I see. A relatively new user should be encouraged and given some guidance, perhaps, not goaded and disrespected. If you come across as arbitrary and illegitimate, that breeds disrespect by this editor, probably leading the editor into trouble with other editors, too. But your disrespect is part of the problem, part of goading the editor on. Please refrain, yourself. --doncram 18:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- Doncram, Gregbard is hardly a newbie needing your protection. He registered here on 3 April 2006 and has over 80,000 total edits. Anyway, if you are interested in defending his honor (and/or telling the world about your opinions of me), you might be interested in Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Orlady. --Orlady (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC) Furthermore, where else do you think I should have communicated to him about his misleading edit summary? --Orlady (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2013 (UTC)