Misplaced Pages

Wow, I wouldn't have expected that you'd present yourself as such a clique so openly here. --Joy (talk) 00:00, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

I find your lack of good faith disturbing. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:27, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me??? "The harassment community"? You're defending someone who violates topic bans, canvasses supporters, threatens to out users, and tries to sneak his personal opinions into official policy by cleverly nested template inclusion. You are blatantly mischaracterising the underlying dispute, as well as importing it here. This discussion is not about diacritics, but about LBW's conduct. So please refrain from personal attacks, and keep the content dispute out of here. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:12, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

In fact I have noticed that the anti-diacritic crowd does indeed get more sanctions. This is not because of unfair application, but because, on average, the members of that crowd exhibit a greater degree of battleground mentality than the pro-diacritics crowd. Indeed, Kauffner's own comment pretty clearly exhibits much the same, suggesting that those in favour of diacritics don't want to write an English encyclopedia and calling them the harassment community. And openly strategizing to keep them busy. So when he says his side is getting more sanctions, he can just look at his own comments and see why. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 13:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

• As if anti-English crusaders don't violate any rules, or I don't who these people are. In any case, writing an article that English speakers can read should take precedence over expressing national pride by introducing non-English words and spellings. Kauffner (talk) 15:12, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Just listen to yourself! Do you really think that those who are in favour of correct use of diacritics are anti-English crusaders? For what little it's worth, I am English, and I favour sensible use of diacritics. To suggest that anyone who takes such a position is motivated by 'national pride' is a wild allegation of poor faith. AlexTiefling (talk) 19:33, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Kauffner, you make my point far better than I ever could. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support - This user has knowingly violated multiple policies, multiple times. TCN7JM 01:21, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose indefinite block. I would support a block of specific duration not to exceed 90 days. My76Strat (talk) 08:01, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite is not permanent. An injection of clue a few months down the line is always possible. For now, this is pretty open and shut. Opposes could scarcely be less convincing. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:30, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

  I understand that "Indefinite is not permanent". I also understand that many would object to an un-block request based on their own perception of what constitutes "too soon"; irrespective of any assertion of clue. I stand on my belief that 90 days is commensurate to the misdeeds I have observed. My76Strat (talk) 09:40, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

  That seems to make it de facto a punitive block, however - 'he's done X, Y and Z, the sentence is 90 days'. Blocks are at least supposed to be preventative, not punitive - the thing to ask is, if we imposed (say) a 90 day block, would we be right back here on day 91? Signs point to yes - which is why indef is appropriate. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:32, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

It might also be pointed out that LBW has never once formally appealed a block. He silently accepts his "punishment", waits for it to run out, and then goes right back to exactly what he was doing. We shouldn't let him get away with this a third time. Konjakupoet (talk) 14:56, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support, long overdue. - filelakeshoe (t / c) 09:48, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - This voting section should be closed immediately as pointless. Risker stated above the block is being reviewed by Arbcom so the arguments and supports and opposes here are not needed. Arbcom will make the determination. Kumioko (talk) 15:02, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

• Um, a community-ban and an ArbCom block/ban are two different things. Why do you bizarrely believe that the two are mutually exclusive? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:25, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
• ArbCom is reviewing a block based on "canvassing/outing". This discussion is about a block for "repeated flouting of a topic-ban". The two are seperate issues. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 16:38, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support has already violated his topic ban two times and has been blocked twice for it. Short blocks haven't been working so an indefinite block is the only option left. -DJSasso (talk) 16:41, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support. The issue isn't that he thinks diacritics don't belong to an English publication, but how he manifests this with his behaviour. He is already subject to a topic ban which he considers unjust and has happily ignored on more than one occasion, and he continues to treat WP as a battleground. His statements above, the recent latent TB violations not sanctioned and his declaration that he intends to appeal the TB shortly without having demonstrated any sign of contrition are highly disconcerting. Going around accusing editors who oppose him "ultra-nationalists" and raising of an ANI complaint "bullying" are uncivil and unhelpful respectively. -- Ohconfucius  01:41, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support. This may be moot, since LBW has been indeffed for outing, but I'll add my voice to the chorus. Unlike some of the others here, who have been waging a pitched battle against LBW for some time now, I have little to no interaction over this issue, but I generally support LBW's position on diacritics. However, this position appears to be a minority view, and I recognize that community consensus has primacy over my personal views. LBW's editing surrounding this topic has been clearly tendentious and disruptive, and it's obvious that he is either unable or unwilling to abide by the restrictions of the existing topic ban. An indefinite block is the next logical step, with the understanding that indefinite does not mean permanent. Horologium (talk) 02:04, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• Kick it to ArbCom While I would definitely support on an indef, I find it pointless to try and impose blocks and/or sanctions here while ArbCom is already trying to work on a solution. Changed to support after review. Herr Kommisar 02:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

As the user he "outed", I should point out that whether "outing" actually took place is sort of up-for-grabs. As I already pointed out above, LBW did not directly state my personal information in public. What he did was directly attempt to tie my new WP:CLEANSTART account to a previous account that had been outed. By a user LBW was colluding closely with. LBW, knowing all of this, posted the claim that this account is linked with my old one on about six separate forums (those are the redacted edits). While LBW's actions here make it obvious that he is basically malicious and did intend to cause me harm/out me, it is entirely possible that ArbCom won't accept this as falling within the standard definition of "outing". Therefore, this discussion needs to continue: no point letting him off the hook for all his other violations just because his harassment of me didn't technically qualify as outing. Konjakupoet (talk) 03:35, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that does technically qualify as outing, actually. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:21, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Is ArbCom reviewsing the whole kit and kaboodle, or just the current block he's currently under for 'canvassing/outing'? Because 'flagrant topic ban violations' is a whole 'nother kettle of hagfish. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Our review is limited to the alleged outing. T. Canens (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• CLOSE AS NO CONSENSUS - LittleBenW contacted me on my talk page, which some call canvassing but I disagree with that assessment, as anyone is welcome to ask for help and I'm always free to disagree or refuse. That puts me in an awkward position that good judgement tells me I shouldn't close, although I would like to. Obviously, many think he is continually violating his topic ban and he should listen to them and comply with the spirit and letter of the ban. My concern is our ability to be objective at this point when determining a sanction. I've watched and given this a great deal of thought, understanding that many would mistakenly think this is a free pass, when in fact, it is only trying to uphold our ideals. If I were convinced that no one would object to my closing, it would be as follows:

The entire process has been messy, confusing, with lots of claims made (in good faith I believe) of outing, which ArbCom has decided is not the case, blocks and unblocks for outing and canvassing. At the end of the day, the well has become so poisoned, and many of the !votes now moot, that the entire process is better aborted. I don't think it is possible to reach a fair conclusion at this stage, nor truly determine consensus due to all these circumstances, and if the process can not be objective and unbiased, then I have no choice but to close as No Consensus at this time. I will note that there are a number of people who have issue with LittleBenW's activies here and I think there is likely merit to their concerns, so I would add a warning to LittleBenW that it is sincerely in his best interest to avoid anything that could be interpreted as voilating his topic ban, as he is likely to simply be blocked by a passing by admin the next time he violates the topic ban, without the benefit of a discussion here. I would suggest taking a few days off, collecting your thoughts and treading carefully for a while to prevent any misunderstandings. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• Committee has stated LBW's actions were not outing -- and, as the outing allegation is cited multiple times in the reasons for the ban above, I concur with Dennis Brown this should be closed as FUBAR. NE Ent 02:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, I've stricken my !vote from this mess. The weight of the matter taints this discussion anyone who read it was likely influenced by it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:33, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose community indef though I would support an admin imdeffing right now and leave it up to any admin to be convinced that an unblock is warranted.   little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  02:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• WTF - OK, if the outing part is incorrect, so be it. But why on earth have they been unblocked (and not merely had their block reduced) when no evidence has been presented to disprove either the canvassing, the constant stream of personal attacks, the topic ban violations, the edit warring? Surely those are all majorly blockable offences as well? ArbCom's decision baffles and infuriates me, ESPECIALLY as this ANI thread was opened with no mention of outing initially. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

  ArbCom said their only role was to review the outing, nothing else, so there's nothing to blame on them. However, I don't quite agree with the "no consensus" close — most of the supporters of an indef block have said that their opinion is based primarily on the topic ban violations, not the alleged outing. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

  The original block length was three hours, it was then extended to indefinite as a result of allegations of outing. Since we determined that no outing occurred, we reversed this extension. The three-hour block would have expired days ago and, so, I decided to unblock him. Doing something else, in my mind, would have been disrespectful towards the community for they were already discussing the case and could reach a reasonable result by themselves and towards LittleBenW... Or, at least, that's what I thought at the moment. Salvio 07:41, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• I can only pop in briefly, but as the indef-blocking admin I have to comment. I thank ArbCom for taking this over on request, and I'm happy to accept their findings. What I interpreted as outing (based on information that is not public) appears to have been mistaken, and I offer my apologies to LittleBenW for my misinterpretation of the evidence. As my block appears to have influenced the discussion here, and as some people have made their choice based on the now-overturned suspicion of outing, I don't think a fair outcome based on the original topic-ban issue is possible at this stage. So I Oppose any sanctions on LittleBenW in this instance. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• Close with 2 clear warnings to LBW: 1) any attempt to link an account with a previous account can be a violation of WP:OUTING if it was a valid WP:CLEANSTART; 2) Any (and I do mean any) violation of his topic ban will lead to an immediate block. From the above, it's clear that the community isn't tolerating and pushing of envelopes or other forms of mucking about (✉→BWilkins←✎) 09:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• There's quite a bit of discussion about the unblock decision at User talk:LittleBenW#Unblocked on my talk page which may be of interest to people here. To quote myself from my talk page: "I do not know the user's identity and so cannot have "outed" him". (He links to his own former user ID from this ANI discussion; if that is considered to be "outing" then he has outed himself—some would call using multiple unspecified user IDs to attack other users "socking"). "I can accept that an Admin. would in good faith give Konjakupoet the benefit of the doubt, and block me for "possible outing", but I don't think that Konjakupoet's making such bogus claims to prevent me from participating at ANI (and to encourage people to vote to ban me) can in any way be considered to be "acceptable" or "good faith". LittleBen (talk) 10:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• In my reply to Salvio on my talk page I also say: "The continuing vicious attacks on users who ask that WP rules on properly researching (in reliable sources) and neutrally reporting (NPOV) BLP names and place names indicate that this is an issue that cannot be solved by the community. Organized lynchings at ANI are not the answer, I believe. I think that the best way to solve this issue would be for ArbCom to consider guidelines. May I submit a case on this to ArbCom?" but I have not yet received a reply. Maybe I need to submit a summary of the proposal to ArbCom separately. LittleBen (talk) 10:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
  • ArbCom does not comment on content issues, only those of conduct. While you could certainly try to press your argument of "organized lynchings", I suspect you'd end up with a pretty big WP:BOOMERANG upside the head if you did. Resolute 14:30, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• I will probably comment on the bogus topic ban here later (you can find some discussion on my talk page). (I'd prefer to get a decision from ArbCom on the issues involved). The discussions at Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 April 21#Template:Google RS are also related and so may also be of interest. LittleBen (talk) 10:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• I'm glad to see the open minds, and respect the concerns as well. LittleBenW was blocked for a time, so he has had some time to think about the situation. I think NE Ent summed it as FUBAR, which is exactly what it is. It is more comparable to a mistrial, not a declaration of innocence. It isn't anyone's "fault", sometimes these things happen even when everyone is acting in the best of faith, as is the case here. If LittleBenW moves forward from here and doesn't violate his topic ban, then he got by with a flesh wound and will have become wiser from it. If he really is unredeemable enough to require an indef block, then he will end up back here again soon enough, and a fresh process can be started at that time. I think it is important that we recognize when the process has gone awry and are willing to back away, making it clear to the rest of the community that fairness is important when deciding the fate of a fellow editor. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:06, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I need to point out that while this proposal is basically done for the moment, all of my concerns and the majority of the arguments for the block made by about 80% of the participants here have yet to be addressed. LBW should have immediately got a block of more than a week for violating his TBAN for the the third time, anyway. He has therefore been let off easy with only just over two days. He has also been making admirable use of his freedom since being unblocked -- going around numerous talk pages and violating WP:AGF by claiming that either Zebedee or myself manufactured a "bogus" claim of outing in order to silence him. I just wanted him to stop spouting BS about how I was "outcast by the Misplaced Pages community for being disruptive" or something like that. Frankly, I told him before posting here in the first place that if he violated his TBAN by reverting me one more time I would take him here, but then my immediate impetus for bringing this up was not a TBAN violation so much as a personal attack he made against me on Boneyard90's talk page. If he makes one more personal attack against me, I will post the same proposal as above again, and this time with no "iffy" charges. Consensus is overwhelmingly against LBW at the moment. He is walking on thin ice, and he'd better be careful not to slip. (Additionally, since my only interactions with him have ever been over diacritics, his making attacks against me could be interpreted as a TBAN in and of itself.) Watch your back, LBW: one more personal attack and I'm bringing you back here. Konjakupoet (talk) 14:13, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Given that you've only been here for 4 days (under your current ID), you might need to watch your own back - there could be a boomerang coming. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I have eight years of constructive edits under my belt, and I have nothing to hide. I have already responded to your query below on my user page, but I'm not posting it there because it's void (the user in question was blocked on being found to be a sock). What boomerang could be coming? Whenever I get in conflict with people on here they tend to wind up either getting indefinitely blocked or having broad TBAN's placed on them, or getting so tired of consensus always being on my side that they just stop harassing me: why would this be any different? Konjakupoet (talk) 15:10, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose While I don't want to condone topic ban violations of any sort, this, particularly given the issue, is way overkill. A far more productive use of community time would be a comprehensive look at the diacritics issue. We don't want to be in the position of banning otherwise productive editors because we can't decide when a ' should go over a letter and when it shouldn't. --regentspark (comment) 15:16, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Why do you think LBW is productive? He hardly ever edits articles, and most of his talk page comments involve comments that are iffy at best and extremely poisonous personal attacks at worst. Anyway, you're late to the party. Consensus was in favour of a block but a mistrial involving ArbCom means that nothing will come of it. If LBW steps over the line again he'll be out of the frying pan, though. Konjakupoet (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I meant that as a general comment about the diacritics mess not specifically about LBW. Apologies. --regentspark (comment) 15:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I know better than most how messy it is. That's why we don't need LBW and Kauffner aggravating the situation by calling everyone who disagrees with them an "ultranationalist" who "don't want to write an encyclopedia in English". Konjakupoet (talk) 15:56, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment We have common English language usage for place names, but we also have respected and independent data thereof, e.g., the BGN database. That said, when it comes to people, they are not places. Scholarly sources increasingly use Eastern European individual's "real" names. Making judgemental and baseless accusations of ultra-nationalism and complaining about said same individuals on the pages of admins or arbcom members is not the way to settle content differences. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 20:18, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I strongly disagree with the proposal to close this as 'No consensus'. There was a clear consensus in favour of the block, and the muddying of the waters regarding 'outing' was largely due to LBW's own disruptive behaviour. It should not be possible to avoid censure simply by messing up the process by which censure is decided upon. LBW refers to the topic ban itself as 'bogus' just a little further up this page, and that hardly suggests to me that he intends to abide by it. His interactions with practically everyone on this thread, and with PBS and IOO on his own talk page, show that WP:IDHT and WP:BATTLEGROUND are still his method. And as for describing this as an 'organised lynching' - all I can do is suggest that LBW familiarise himself with the history of the southern USA, and with the meaning of the word 'hyperbole'. The accusations of poor faith against LBW's and Kauffner's opponents are getting to be extremely wearing, and not a little offensive. Do we really have to sit on our hands while the cycle repeats itself again? AlexTiefling (talk) 07:29, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
• Further Comment - I see that over at WP:TFD, LBW is back to his old disruptive habit of using the live site as a preview, or if you prefer, of repeatedly refactoring his own comments while people are trying to respond. At one point, I see 7 consecutive edits to the same section in less than 20 minutes. I can't tell whether this is a WP:COMPETENCE issue, or a ham-fisted attempt at exercising ownership, but it's not acceptable. Numerous users have complained to LBW about this in the past. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:36, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I notice that perhaps as many users as those who voted against a block have come back after the ArbCom ruling to protest the potential "No consensus" ruling. Don't worry, my friends: history is on our side. The tide of history is shifting, down the page, to a new discussion of LBW's latest TBAN-violation. Konjakupoet (talk) 15:24, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• I should note that my original call for an indef made absolutely no mention of outing anyway. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:01, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support, the user continued to disrupt the workings of the site despite a mountain of requests and warnings not to do so. The user should be indef blocked until they agree that they will follow community consensus, even where they disagree with it. Lankiveil 21:20, 25 April 2013 (UTC).
• Oppose its stale and Konjakupoet seems to have a battleground mentality that is all to frequently associated with this subject which makes it far from black and white. Put both of them on a 1rr limit and a civility warning. ----Snowded 06:12, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a battleground mentality. LBW and his friends harassed me for months before I left Misplaced Pages. Now I'm trying to come back, but they continue to try to force me off. I have never made a negative edit to an article to deserve the kind of comment you wrote above. Konjakupoet (talk) 15:00, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

And can someone give LBW a new TBAN from CANVASSING?? Konjakupoet (talk) 15:00, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

You have received four warnings on your talk page from four different editors about insulting edit summaries and about attacking other users in just four days, you have been warned to cool it, you even brag that you can easily get other editors blocked at ANI because you are always in the right, and you are claiming that you don't have a battleground mentality? LittleBen (talk) 16:25, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Konjakupoet's behaviour aside, would you care to explain how that was not canvassing? Resolute 16:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm sick of LBW's personal attacks over this. I continued editing Misplaced Pages under my new account as though I had never left. This made some good faith editors think I was just being aggressive. But the fact is that the only edit war I have been involved in since coming back was the one where the block-evading sock-puppet Darkness walks started revenge-reverting all of my edits. When I asked him to engage me on the talk page he refused. He eventually got blocked. But, LBW, if you really think I am in some way a problematic user, why have I never been taken to ANI, and why have I never had community- or administrator-imposed restrictions on me? Seriously, instead of making one more ad hominem attack like the above, why not try posting about my behaviour in a separate thread here, or on AN, or on RFCU? Anyway, we need to keep focused: this thread is about LBW's behaviour. Since he was unblocked and the outing question was resolved, he has posted on numerous forums the ridiculous accusation the Boing! said Zebedee manufactured a fake outing charge against him to silence his voice here, canvassed some more, made the same repeated attack against me as above a bunch of times. And even though only two users (I think) who were not canvassed voted against him getting indeffed, more than that have come back and said he should be indeffed based on all of the objective evidence and nothing to do with the outing question. Konjakupoet (talk) 17:02, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• I see that you are continuing to stalk me and harass other users, and you blanked your talk page to remove all the warnings that you have been given. LittleBen (talk) 05:24, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• To be fair, you are allowed to blank your own talk page. Read WP:BLANKING. TCN7JM 05:26, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Konjakupoet you write above "I don't have a battleground mentality" (15:00, 26 April). yet you wrote on your talk page "Gentlemen, to be completely fair, my new account is much more aggressive in dealing with harassers than the last one was" 14:45 25 April.. While it is quite possible for someone to change their mind on an issue, other editors I am sure are able to look at your edit history and draw their own conclusions as to which is the more accurate statement, and if indeed you have changed you opinion and started to walk the walk -- PBS (talk) 09:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
• If Konjakupoet gets sanctioned, as they possibly should (they've overstepped the mark a few times here, although under provocation), that shouldn't make any difference to LittleBenW's case, really. Forget outing: look how often they've canvassed people, sent personal attacks, on and off Wiki, to various people, edit warring, violating their topic ban, ignoring any effort to resolve disputes properly, etc... this user may occasionally make good edits, but they can't edit within the collaborative environment here, and don't belong here. This is why I, and many others, called for an indef. I fail to see how there is no consensus for this, there are far more calling for an indef, without outing being part of that call, than are opposing it. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:03, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree, and would like to point out one other thing/ask one other question: if an indef is not applied, what are the odds this editor will be back on ANI again, for exactly the same reason, quite soon? Based on observed behavior, "chances are very good". That is, logically, supporting the indef position. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

    If being "back on ANI again" is reason for a site ban, you should consider yourself site-banned Bushranger. It's a pity that you haven't had the decency to comment on the bullshit accusations of "canvassing" or the overkill in the tag team attempts to ban LBW. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

    I presumed the "for exactly the same reason" made the intent clear, but as it seems only part of the sentence is being read, it can be changed to "back on ANI again with regard to misconduct in exactly the same area as multiple times before". I am weighing LBW's conduct only on his dealing with the diacritic issue; any "canvassing" (as rejected, it seems, by Arbcom) is utterly irrelevant, as is alleged "tag-teaming". LBW's record with regard to his topic ban is the only issue being weighed here in my !vote, as it is the only relevant issue with regards to a potential ban, and when weighing his conduct w.r.t. his topic ban in the balance, I find it wanting. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

KW: Wow. Where do you get the idea that accusing LBW of canvassing is "bullshit"? Surely noticing that someone has proposed you get indefinitely blocked, and then immediately posting on the talk pages of 6 different users (most of whom have supported the same in the past) and linking here with the accusation that one's opponents are "ultra-nationalists" is ... well, what would you call it if not "canvassing"? Do you want to propose KoH get sanctioned for making the same "bullshit" accusation and blocking LBW accordingly? Would you consider that block to have been an abuse of KoH's administrative powers? Further, as far as I can tell Bushranger has had no editing restrictions or blocks placed on him, while LBW has violated his TBAN hundreds of times and has been blocked (only?) twice for it already. Konjakupoet (talk) 11:07, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• This is one of the most ridiculous attempts to ban a user. Creating a template that helps to search for The Economist and New York Times etc. is disruptive? Really? Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
  • No, it isn't. Flagrantly flaunting a topic ban therefore indicating he has no respect for the community? That is disruptive. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• I expected you to respond like this, Kiefer. You've ignored the edit warring. The fact canvassing has CLEARLY happened. The constant stream of personal attacks. The violations of his topic ban. The POINTy comments about their topic ban. And everything else that just shows this user is not capable of editing in this environment. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

  Luke,

  Canvassing has been clearly alleged, but absurdly. I was "canvassed", despite my being adamantly pro-diacritic. Then I was "canvassed" because I (like 100 thousand other editors) was ignorant of LBW's alleged offenses. Others have expressed alarm at the tone and sloppiness of this discussion, e.g. Drmies on my talk page.

  My take: There is a gang trying to ban LBW that, regardless of LBW's behavior, is repeating falsehoods and absurdities and disrupting WP by the broken-record call for a ban.

  LBW seems to be a somewhat confused and perhaps productive editor who has created a nice set of templates to find high quality reliable sources, who (being ganged up on) has responded by openly asking for outside opinions, on Wiki and by email---not smoothly but often by asking persons who disagree with him. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:12, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Rubbish. He's not canvassing about the topic ban, but things like this,, are inappropriate and constitute canvassing. There's been several other diffs to prove this. Is this discussion a bit sloppy? Yes, is is, and Konjakupoet has been no saint either. Giving people notifications about this ANI with headings such as "More bullying by the ultra-nationalists" is not an open question. It's also a personal attack on people, which is what LBW has been doing all along. Also, your comments here have only attempted to refute (incorrectly, as well) the canvassing claim. Again, you ignore the history of personal attacks, edit warring, topic ban violations - whether the edits were good or not is irrelevant. If they violated the topic ban, then he needs blocking. And I myself remember inappropriate and frankly disgusting behaviour from LittleBenW when the ban for JoshuSasori was discussed. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:30, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

  Konjakupoet's behavior here and on my talk page puts him in the same boat as LBW, as far as I'm concerned. If both receive substantial blocks, then the decision might be fair. It would be unfair to scapegoat LBW in a conflict which you acknowledge has had several misbehaving editors. I would like to think that LBW has potential to contribute to the project. Most of our editors are young, and I can forgive a young person for behaving panicky when being threatened with being banned (in an unfair discussion). What is essential is that all participants try to treat both LBW and Konjakupoet with respect and also try to conduct themselves soberly here. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:46, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Hardly scapegoating LBW. Konjakupoet has been nowhere near as bad as LBW, either in this discussion, or generally, since LBW has been at this for a very, very long time. I am a young editor, and age has absolutely nothing to do with reacting to sanctions - a 60 year old could be just as panicked as a 16 year old. I'm trying to keep my (very low) personal opinion of LBW out of this, but the number of times they've been at legitimate ANIs for violating various guidelines means they have no place here. Konjakupoet probably needs a cool-down block, but not the indef that LBW has earned themselves. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:14, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Konjakupoet: Eight years of constructive edits, not a single block except for a minor technical issue, demonstrating good faith, until LBW and his hounds harassed me off Misplaced Pages for a couple of months. LBW: Constant, flagrant topic ban violations, making absurd personal attacks against those who disagree with him, assuming bad faith, harassing, canvassing... Why are we in the same boat, Kiefer? Konjakupoet (talk) 14:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Konjakpoet, you have shot yourself in the foot in this thread: you were probably quite right to make the points about LBW...once. You were also right to defend yourself...once. You were probably even right to reply/defend your original points...once or twice. However, you have continued to badger and re-state the exact same point again and again and again until you lost the support of the community - as you can see, many on this board now see you as equivalent to LBW. You've screwed this up badly, when it should have ended differently (✉→BWilkins←✎) 15:43, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

That's overstating it a bit but it's a valid point Konjakupoet's best tactic right now it to walk way from the thread. NE Ent 15:49, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

My original point that the entire process has been compromised and should be closed still stands. That doesn't mean future actions can't be considered, but we are well past the point that the stick should be dropped. I was hoping that by now someone would have closed this discussion. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Request for a reconsideration

I'd like another editor to review this closure. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:39, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

The purpose of an ANI closing is to neuturally summarize the consensus of a discussion, not make comments about unrelated matters/editors; accordingly I've asked Bbb23 (talk · contribs) to remove his inappropriate commentary regarding users other than LBW from the closing statement. NE Ent 18:22, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Please review WP:Boomerang and consider the importance of having some perception of fairness and uniform standards in the community. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not sure what your point here is, Kiefer. Far more voted for the block than against. Even discounting the disproven outing comments, the fact remains that it was a 2:1 ratio, near enough, of votes, and the vast majority on both sides were proper ones, not just bandwagon jumping. LBW's behaviour during this ANI alone would be enough for a hefty sanction. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:13, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

  Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary. Try reading about "consensus". Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:15, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with NE Ent, the close had an unintentional air of involved supervote. A dispassionate evaluation of the discussion indicates that no consensus was reached. I ask Bbb23 to withdraw his close and convert his input into a 'vote' supporting the block. My76Strat (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not objecting to the finding of consensus to indef block; I'm saying the comments about kp and PBS contained within the summary are inappropriate for a summary of the entire discussion. NE Ent 22:45, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• The close doesn't have an air of a supervote at all. It analyses both sides' comments, both their numbers and their contents, and comes to a logical conclusion. You may not agree with it, but that doesn't make it a supervote. Ched appears to support the close. Besides, as it was an indefinite block, and not a community ban, Bbb23 actually had every right to close it as an indef. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Bbb23 you wrote above "PBS should have reduced his role as an advocate for Little Ben. PBS’s comments, for the most part, did not help." Of the statements I made above which one do you think most typifies my advocacy for Little Ben? Which one of my comment do you think is the least helpful? -- PBS (talk) 09:54, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Kiefer - perhaps instead of white knighting for LittleBen, you might perhaps engage with him on amending his behaviour and accepting that he is topic banned, so that the block can be lifted? It should be obvious that if he is allowed back in and these antics continue, his next stop is a community ban. Resolute 13:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Long-running disputes at the Barelvi article, and similar articles.

I'm going to try and avoid as much of the content dispute as I can here, but obviously I cannot fully avoid this. I'm going to primarily talk about the Barelvi article, as that is where I've been party to. Now, this has been at ANI a couple of times in the last few months, and doesn't really seem to have been resolved, despite various temporary blocks, and full-protections of the page. There has been multi-way edit warring - of which I am guilty of, to a degree, although I've tried to keep the article to the version established by a consensus. The primary offenders are Msoamu (talk · contribs), whom is currently part-way through a one week block for edit warring, and Am Not New (talk · contribs).

Msoamu is constantly warring to remove what he views as non-neutral views, regardless of the consensuses at the talk page, and has often referred to MezzoMezzo (talk · contribs), whom has been diligently working to try and get a neutral article, with inflammatory comments and edit summaries, predominantly centering around what Msoamu believes MezzoMezzo's religious stance is, or accusations of bias aimed at MezzoMezzo. Examples of this include:

• - "wahabi views are written in various wahabi pages.It is Barelwi article,rv wahabi invalid undue criticism"
• - "Now there is consensus,In Terrorism heading at least.also i have demanded RS for blatant MezzoMezzo's POV"
• - "There are relation headings/barelvis practices must be about their practices only.NOT POV of Wahabis"
• - "Terrorism heading is 100% relevant and important.MezzoMezzo you have added here minute details of events to show it in bad light and now opposing highly relevant heading"

It must be noted that Msoamu and MezzoMezzo have been involved, on and off, in this dispute since 2007, as can be viewed here.

Am Not New is a different kettle of fish, but no less of a problem. The user's name claims that they are not a new user, yet they have also made the statement that they are - I cannot remember where that was, but it's not really relevant to this discussion. This user seems to be disruptive across a lot of articles, but again, I'm sticking primarily to the Barelvi dispute, which is where I have witnessed the dodgy edits. Examples of POV-pushing include:

• - "Many people say many things about barelvi.it dosent mean to add everything here.it is barelvi article" - ignoring the fact that a consensus had been established on the talk page to include this information. It also made that paragraph far more biased to the Barelvi sect, and generally less informative. Upon being reverted, they then re-removed a (slightly smaller) amount of content, this time without any edit summary: . That removal was also reverted by another editor, whom I haven't seen edit the article before (which is generally a sign that ANN's edit was bad)

"a consensus had been established on the talk page" where is consensus on talk page regarding this passage? mr lukeno the consensus was made on history topic see.you,MezzoMezzo (talk · contribs) and Msoamu (talk · contribs) were fighting on history topic.the passage which i edited was totally different.i was particulary editing beliefs.which was my main subject as i improved it before.Dil e Muslim talk 13:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• - removed as WP:OR by User:Qwyrxian. It had previously been added, and removed by MezzoMezzo.
• - an edit that was quite promotional of the added person. The excessive info was removed, then re-added , then removed again (by me, this time), readded once more , and removed by me again.

Obviously, there's a lot more than just this, and it's spread over quite a few articles, but I digress. I have two proposals for each user:

• Proposal 1: Both editors are topic-banned from all religious articles, broadly-construed, for the period of 1 year. Any violations of this topic ban would result in a resetting of the ban to its original length, and potentially a block. Msoamu is also prohibited from making any comments on an editor's religious stance indefinitely, and violation of this would trigger a mid-length block (probably around a month).
• Proposal 2: Msoamu is blocked for 3 months, then topic-banned from all religious articles, broadly-construed, for the period of 9 months. Am Not New, due to their lack of positive edits generally (in my experience), should get a 6 month block, and then a 6-month topic ban. Msoamu is also prohibited from making any comments on an editor's religious stance indefinitely, and violation of this would trigger a mid-length block (probably around a month).

Since some of these disputes date back all the way to 2007, it's high time this ended. Due to Msoamu's long history in this area, I'm more than happy to see a lengthier topic ban, if that's what consensus states (including an indef topic ban). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose i think the proposal is abit harsh and seeing that i have offered to meditate afew days ago..i say we give these editors a second chance before topic bans Baboon43 (talk) 16:22, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• With respect, and let's leave ANN out of this, how is this proposal harsh on Msoamu? If anything, it's lenient - as this sort of thing has been going on since 2007. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

why didnt you wait till he was unblocked to pursue this case? at this moment he cant defend himself obviously & im sure you have seen my pledge to help calm things down over there. Baboon43 (talk) 17:00, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• I left a message on his talk page, specifically stating that I, or another editor, would bring any of his comments here. As for your pledge, it's very good, but remember that, several months ago, I made an identical pledge, got things sorted for a bit, only for it to kick off even more. Forgive me, but I can't see anything short of a topic ban sorting this. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

As that user already said that i am not related to this discussion and i didnt made any such edits for which i should be block.these last two edits related to tahir ul qdri is not related to this dispute.as concerned with edit of grave worshipping i had seen it irrelevent so i removed.but let me tell you two other names which are part of this dispute.which are engaged in edit war since years.these are Lukeno94 (talk · contribs) and MezzoMezzo (talk · contribs) both of these are main personalities behind this warr.and an important part of this disputes.especially MezzoMezzo (talk · contribs).i request you to see the edit history of Barelvi.

• seriously these users too should also be blocked.

Proposal: 3 years block of all religious articles for MezzoMezzo (talk · contribs) and 1 year for Lukeno94 (talk · contribs)

• i want you to look at my edits.i dont deserve that.
• please get comments from Msoamu (talk · contribs)Dil e Muslim talk 17:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• I've not hidden the fact I've been marginal at times. MezzoMezzo has actually not edit warred very much at all, in recent times: it's mostly other users restoring his edits. Your proposal is pretty damn POINTy to say the least. In fact, MezzoMezzo has only reverted you a couple of times, IIRC. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:35, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I am talking on this dispute and edit warr running from years.Sir admin.MezzoMezzo (talk · contribs) Lukeno94 (talk · contribs) Msoamu (talk · contribs) are three users are fighting from years on this article and similar type of articles(as they accepted it).where msamu tried to show his prospective(barelvi) there these two were trying hard to show thier(non barelvi) side.i am talking about years.look at thier talk page archives.here you will find many warnings and fights.dear respected admin if you block only masamo i will be unjust,you should also ban these twoo users.to cool this topic it is necessary to block both parties.thanks Dil e Muslim talk 02:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Speaking as the admin who's been trying to adjudicate this mess, a little bit, and who blocked Msoamu for edit warring...Am Not New's explanation is simply wrong. MezzoMezzo and Lukeno94 have been inserting neutral, well-sourced info. Msoamu has edit warred, made arguments based entirely on his personal opinions, and regularly introduced "sources" that don't even come close to WP:RS.

Regarding sanctions, I do have to agree with Am Not New, however, that this is the wrong time to ask for sanctions on Msoamu. I know that if I were blocked for a week, I would probably walk away from Misplaced Pages and not even look at my page until my block was up. There's no reason to believe that he is aware of this conversation and thus able to offer a defense. As for Am Not New, I'll need to review the exact extent of his edits before commenting. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:20, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps I should've waited a week, but Am Not New's continued dodgy edits meant that I put both up at the same time. If you like, I can withdraw the Msoamu part until they return from their block. Am Not New's statements about me edit warring for years are blatantly incorrect - I only started editing this article a couple of months ago. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• Hmm. Am Not New, care to explain what's going on here? - information inserted (which I left there initially, for a more religiously-experienced editor to analyse), it was then removed by GorgeCustersSabre, readded by an IP with an incomprehensible reason, removed by me, then re-added again by this IP here. Did you forget to log in again, Am Not New? Because it's pretty blatantly obvious this is you, and I don't want to have to file an SPI unless it is necessary, for WP:AGF reasons. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:34, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

SPI already filed. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:21, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

well i realy think it is you coz there is a complaint against me and you are trying to blame me by making different type of dramas by some ips.i didnt made any edit even.Dil e Muslim talk 05:37, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I think banning Am Not New (talk · contribs) will be a bit harsh. Although he has been involved in some edit wars and been engaged in conflicts with me, he seems to have seized his edit warring. I think that an Administrator giving him a strict warning will be more appropriate. I think that assuming his good faith is the best option as I think that he can make important contributions. Tommyfenton (talk) 21:24, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• Am Not New, an IP makes the same edit as you 3 or 4 times in a row, and you expect it not to look suspicious? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:10, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

As i already said may be it is your ip.as you are trying to prove me problmatic.Dil e Muslim talk 13:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• Holy shit. IP's most recent edit summary: "all that editors are wahabi or either sockpuppets.my demand is again same." I'd like to see evidence that I'm a sockpuppet, and I'd also love to know how I'm a Wahabi when I'm not a Muslim... Can someone block this IP, because this is just pathetic. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:12, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I probably could have blocked the IP, but chose to semi-protect the article for a week instead. The article doesn't really have a history of useful IP edits, and this editor seems to only be going after this page...but I don't mind at all if someone wants to switch this to a block. Qwyrxian (talk) 08:04, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

And dear user lukeno90 in your edit you are using abusive words like "kettle of fish" "dodgy" for me.this is a straight personal attack.Dil e Muslim talk 13:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• I'm sorry? Kettle of fish and dodgy are personal attacks? Really? If you think kettle of fish is a personal attack, then I'm not sure that your English is good enough for you to edit on the enwiki, and you should go to your native wiki, for WP:COMPETENCE reasons. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:04, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
• I have to agree with Luke here...neither of those are even remotely personal attacks in any context. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:16, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Luke, I will buy you an Amazon gift card if you stop using asterisks for your comments and start using colons. It's a personal preference thing obviously which is why I'm offering a bribe. Laugh out loud. Anyway, damn man...I left Misplaced Pages for three days so I could spend time with my family and...well, what happened? The sock puppet investigation is very necessary and I will post more diffs there shortly but that's neither here nor there - if there is sockpuppetry involved, it would be a separate thing and the behavior here is a separate thing.
Msoamu's block will be finished by tomorrow and I think this discussion needs to continue. I can bring diffs, but I think Qwezrxian as the supervising admin - yes, I'm putting you on the spot unfortunately - can either confirm the following as true or deny: Msoamu has, at multiple times, blatantly edit warred against consensus. Hell, it's why he was blocked most recently. He received a final warning along with myself (I volunteered to submit myself to such a warning, FYI) which Qwerxian can also attest to. Qwerxian, as the supervising admin, I would also like to put you on the spot to confirm or deny: Msoamu hurls personal attacks frequently and has not ceased doing so over the years.
Alright, that's the factual stuff. Now, from objective to subjective: Msoamu isn't here to help Misplaced Pages. He's here to push a certain POV. That's one. He is rude when people disagree with him. That's two. He will edit war even against consensus to support that POV. That's three. I am willing to go through every single edit he's made since 2007 to prove that he has never, ever added constructively to Barelvi or related articles, I mean that. That's four. He's been warned enough. He deserves a topic ban. Let him comment on talk pages if he can be civil, but there is no reason to allow him to edit because he has not ever edited constructively to improve the encyclopedia, and we now have reason to believe that he will not ever do so.
Regarding Am Not New, then I need to go to the bathroom and do some stuff and I will get to that in a minute. But regarding Msoamu, we need to hear his defense and I would like some community input - obviously, wide community support is needed for a topic ban. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:25, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Alright, regarding Am Not New. In the beginning, he started out like a typical newbie which is totally excusable. A number of editors have tried to work with him in order to explain various site policies, and the process has been difficult. Lukeno and GorgeCustersSabe tried to explain the WP:OR violations he was committing and encouraged him to take things to Talk:Barelvi, as did I. Lukeno was then forced to revert further instances of POV pushing by Msoamu and original research by Am Not New, at which point TommyFenton also got involved in defending the page. Even the admin Qwezxian has to revert the constant insertions of OR on the part of Am Not New, with more diffs by GorgeCustersSabre and Lukeno than I care to link here. The ever-present Mathew Vanitas also randomly showed up to revert Am Not New's OR pushing, as did Darkness Shines. The previous two never had much involvement or interest in the page as far as I can tell and probably just recognized aggressive, tendentious editing when they saw it. It finally ended with Qwerxian protecting the page again which I'm sure annoys the hell out of him. Qwexzian, Lukeno and GorgeCustersSabre tried to explain to Am Not New why his edits were wrong on the relevant talk page (more than just the above diffs but I'm tired of sifting through everything) to no avail.

So, yeah. If the SPI turns out positive, that's a different thing. Even if it doesn't, Am Not New's tendentious editing and refusal to accept advice from more experienced editors is a problem and smacks of someone who just doesn't get it, and doesn't want to get it. I'm actually leaning toward Lukeno's suggested topic ban simply because I've seen the Barelvi page and how it's been manipulated by followers of the movement such as Msoamu, Shabiha and others for the past seven years and considering that YaNabi.com (a website for which Shabiha appears to be the owner or an admin - check that article's related discussions) has an army of zealous young Barelvis who speak...well, I won't say passable English but enough to respond, I don't see why we should assume this case is any different. MezzoMezzo (talk) 07:52, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Also, since we are looking at a topic ban here in general, Am Not New's OR pushing and tendentious editing on Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri can be attested to, and perhaps should be attested to, by User:Justice007. I'm exhausted from sifting through diffs now but suffice to say that the article's history alone is indicitave of a spurt of tendentious editing warring against at least three experienced editors. MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:04, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• I've just seen above that Am Not New has accused me of a deliberate attempt to slander them, via usage of an IP. They've made this accusation twice, possibly three times. That's fairly tendentious editing, especially considering that the style of English is nothing like mine, I was logged in at the times the IP was making edits, and the fact it most definitely isn't my IP, which begins with 31. I feel like you are only digging yourself into a deeper hole, Am Not New. I'm beginning to wonder if just a standard indef under WP:NOTHERE is in order, whether you're a sockpuppet or not. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:36, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• well there is a sockpuppet investigation.i will love to see even its relation with me.btw language can be coppied.Dil e Muslim talk 18:30, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, an investigation which was not started by me. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:06, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

So MezzoMezzo everyone is wrong you are right?infact you are a person which always stop people to make constructive edits since years including lukeno.you want to show negitive side of these articles from years.and as accepted by Qwyrxian and Lukeno94 that both(lukeno and mezzomezzo) are the major and important part of this dispute.and always engaged in edit wars with users.you not left any stone unturned to do war(with mosamu and other users) and show your side.apart from mosamu i again request block of these two users MezzoMezzo (talk · contribs) Lukeno94 (talk · contribs). Mr admin this topic will not cool if only mosamu is blocked.you must block his opponts.and will be unjustice with mosamu. As concenred with my edits on Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri that was a misunderstanding and is not related to this dispute.Dil e Muslim talk 06:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

This is a joke. Yes Am Not New/Dil e Muslim, everybody is wrong, because apparently you and Msoamu = everybody. Anyway, I said my piece and I would like community feedback regarding the admittedly large paragraphs above. I feel that the information up there is pertinent. MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:39, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

No everybody=Shabiha and others for the past seven years.Dil e Muslim talk 07:14, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Utter rubbish. Again you make the completely incorrect statement that I have been disrupting the topic for years: Firstly, I've only ever edited to keep the consensus in place, secondly, I started editing these articles a couple of months ago. If you're going to make accusations like this, at least bother to make them correctly. As to "everybody" agreeing with Msoamu's views, that is patently incorrect. Whilst some users have agreed (Shabiha, yes, and Hassanfarooqi), all neutral outsiders - which I was, when I first came to the dispute, as is Qwyrxian, and several other users - have agreed that MezzoMezzo's edits are neutral, and Msoamu's aren't. Qwyrxian voiced his opinion in this very thread: your failure to pay attention to that shows a WP:IDHT attitude. In addition, your edits have often been so poorly written that they would need a substantial rewrite to remain valid - Msoamu also suffers from this fact. MezzoMezzo does NOT constantly add in negative material: they add in neutral material with reliable sources - and I've seen Msoamu remove some positive bits about Barelvi in their reversions of MezzoMezzo, and then add in their own poorly-sourced POV. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:41, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Dil e Muslim/Am Not New, what do you mean by seven years? Your account is only 18 days old. In only eighteen days, in addition to engaging in your regular edits, you already went through the history of the Barelvi article and took a comprehensive enough survey of the edits and discussions that you're now able to make such a judgment call...after only having a Misplaced Pages account for 18 days? MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

mr admin let me clearify some points from above discussion. which are accepted by all the users here.

• i am(am not new) is not a part of this dispute.as accepted by all these.
• user am not new is not part of these sanctions.(tahir ul qadri sanction are not related to this dispute and that was a misunderstanding even i now provided some authentic sources on Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadris talk page that he is a barelvi.)
• user mezzomezzo is a major part of these dispute from years
• user mezzomezzo is envolved in enforcement from 7 years
• user mezzomezzo is engaged in edit war from years
• as related with behaviour of mezzomezzo.mr admin only people associated with it think that he is right.many of users think that he always try to show negitive side on these article barelvi and related articles.his edits are not constructive and often doesnt let anyone to add constructive edits.
• user luken94 is major part of this dispute.
• user lukeno94 is envolved in enforcement wether it is from years or months.
• use lukeno94 work hand to hand with user mezzomezzo wether he is right or wrong.
• user lukeno94 is engaged in edit war from months.

• from all above parts i demand block of these two users on religious articles.
• and claim that i doesnt deserve that block.Dil e Muslim talk 14:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• I'm really getting fed up of you making the same arguments, even when they've been proven to be wrong. I do not go around "hand in hand" with MezzoMezzo, in fact, I can remember at least one AfD where I expressly disagreed with him. Look through my talk page archives, and look at the times I've told MezzoMezzo to calm down, because they've overstepped the mark. You most definitely are part of this debate, and I have no idea why you're claiming you're not. MezzoMezzo hasn't edit warred (I possibly have, to keep the consensus) for quite a while. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:12, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• point to be noted "lukeno94 told MezzoMezzo to calm down, because they've overstepped the mark"Dil e Muslim talk 15:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• So you're now going to try and manipulate my posts to suggest something else? I've told MezzoMezzo to calm down when Msoamu's POV pushing has really got them riled. Again, if you actually go and look at my talk archives and find the thread, rather than just deliberately quoting me out of context, you'll find that there's nothing untoward. Can we have an admin deal with this WP:POINTy behaviour please? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

dear luken94,cool! Where i manipulated just copy paste.perhaps you should explain it while writing.why didnnt you explained earlier.Dil e Muslim talk 16:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Because there should've been absolutely no need to. I pointed you to where you'd need to go for evidence that I don't go "hand in hand" with MezzoMezzo: instead, you deliberately manipulated my words in a WP:POINTy way. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

mr lukeno94 every person which will see your above paragraph will conclude the same as i did.Dil e Muslim talk 17:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Dear Dil e Muslim, I have read what Lukeno94 wrote, and I agree entirely with him: you are trying to manipulate what he wrote. Sadly, I am now convinced that you are a partisan and provocative editor who will not accept advice. George Custer's Sabre (talk) 03:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Hence the consideration of a topic ban; we're seeing major issues of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT right before our eyes here, on ANI of all places. Even beyond the fact that Am Not New seems to be an agenda account, the extremely combative nature he's displaying here is enough for some sort of action to be taken, even if community support isn't enough for a topic ban. And it might not be enough; what I've noticed with Msoamu's own ANI discussions in the past is that when someone floods the discussion with enough blatant personal attacks, random accusations and manipulation as Am Not New is doing now, outside observers don't take interest because there's simply too much text to read. For my part, my three comments here, here and here express my own position clearly. Lukeno has been the target of some rather nasty personal attacks by Am Not New right here, in the middle of ANI, so I understand why he has responded though I myself will try to minimize comments from here on; I don't want others to be scared away. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:55, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

"Look through my talk page archives, and look at the times I've told MezzoMezzo to calm down, because they've overstepped the mark" dear admin please read the above passage and decide please. mr luken used the line that they have overstepped the mark.here lukeno included both persons mezzomezzo and mosamu.mr admin do you find any word here in the favour of mezzomezzo which lukeno explained later.Dil e Muslim talk 09:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Dont try to blame me by some pretty team workDil e Muslim talk 09:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Can you please stop being WP:POINTy every time you respond here? Again, you're trying to manipulate my words. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:44, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Am Not New has received two warnings for violating WP:NPOV today from User:Pass a Method: Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

soviet union infobox

The baltic states (which are properly noted as not as not being recognised by the Western world) see http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Soviet_Union#Acquisition_of_the_Baltic_states (which most users on the talkpage support inclusion in some form) it would be rather odd to not mention them at all since the existed (maybe albeit in a non western recognised way ((except sweden))) so here is the problem: two users keep removing that claming about some fringe source, the baltic states did not reappear from NOTHING so it just fair to include the view several countries recognized such as Sweden, Netherlands, New Zealand, Spain and Russia please help me stop this nonsense there is a editwar ongoing there i was unable to notify the users becuase user:Nug has protected his page and User:Incnis Mrsi well see his warning on his talkpage. Also administrator user:Carlossuarez46 recommended this to be resolved here see his talkpage 95.195.222.86 (talk) 17:52, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Writers with limited English skills should use short sentences. This is impossible to understand. Looie496 (talk) 19:22, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Basically the issue is that some editors are removing the three Baltic states from the list of successor states to the USSR in the infobox on the Soviet Union page. There are some long-running POV issues in this sphere, with a few editors who refuse to acknowledge the reality that the Baltic states were part of the USSR (their claim is that because some countries didn't recognise Soviet jurisdiction over them, they weren't part of the USSR). Because no-one has ever put their foot down on this issue, it has festered for several years. Number 57 22:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• Just for the record, a similarly numbered IP (95.195.192.64) posted a similar request on my talk page, and I pointed him/her here. I have no opinion on the substance, but I think it's being discussed in the right place now. Cheers, Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:01, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

now someone indefinitely protected the page because user:nug requested that and said my edits was vandalism despite user:nug edit warring, this is unfair can someone unprotect the page? 95.195.208.32 (talk) 15:48, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Make your request at WP:RFUP. If you are told "No" then accept it.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Warren Kinsella

Page is being blanked and unsourced material is being added by a newly-registered editor. It needs full protection again. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 19:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Note WP:RFPP, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:36, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually, looks like they are the same SPA as User:216.191.220.178, made just enough edits to get autoconfirmed and are continuing a section blanking party. I will leave them a message, if that doesn't work, stronger methods can be used. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

It's already protected, Wolfie. RNealK (talk) 23:46, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The editor in question is already autoconfirmed, he created his account a week after it was protected, so the protection isn't the solution. Since the problem is one editor, protection isn't the solution anyway. First we talk, then we warn, then we mash buttons if all else fails. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 03:03, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

It's semi-protected, they were asking for full, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:23, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Spam attack on Evolutionary psychology

• Evolutionary psychology (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
• Evolutionary Psychology of Culture (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Evolution and Culture
• Masterofthepages (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jhicks0207 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Article Incubator/Evolution and Culture

There is something very odd going on here with a huge amount of (spammed?) content beong added to this article by two brand new users. One of these new users has created the second drivel article. Mathsci (talk) 22:02, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Mathsci Just trying to update the old page with new information and formatting. The old article was insufficient. While the new one can definitely be further organized, I was just trying to make a new page with further information on evolutionary psychology and culture. I cannot speak for Masterofthepages (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Is this some undergraduate project gone badly wrong? That's what appears to be happening. Mathsci (talk) 22:17, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The entire work is verifiable, and I believe it is much better than the alternative lack of information on wikipedia.

• Both new editors are out of control. They are both adding large amounts of gobbledegook content. Mathsci (talk) 22:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• One new page is not large amounts, please add specific problems with the new page. jhicks0207 (talk) 22:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

All the content you are adding constitutes an WP:ESSAY, like the deleted article with its bizarre capitalization. Misplaced Pages is not a blog. It looks as if Jhicks0207 and Masterofthepages (who presumably created the deleted essay-article Evolution and Culture) are the same person. Mathsci (talk) 22:32, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• The cache on Google tells me that Evolutionary Psychology of Culture is an identical copy of the recently deleted article Evolution and Culture. Jhicks0207/Masterofthepages is abusing wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 22:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
• I came into this imbroglio in the middle. I've deleted the article created by Jhicks (per WP:CSD#G4), but it took me a bit to figure out what was going on. Unfortunately, Mathsci, whose heart is in the right place, tagged the article as WP:CSD#G1 (nonsense), which, frankly, was a nonsense tagging. I removed the tag, read the talk page comments, which were also pretty silly. I finally traced it back to the article that had just been incubated per a deletion discussion. That article had been created by User:Psyc452-lrockwell, whoever that is. I assume there's a relationship between Jhicks, Masterofthepages, and Psyc452, but it's possible that they're just all fellow students, not a single individual. They do need to stop recreating the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
  • It could be students, but it's hard to say. If so, they should not be let loose on articles like evolutionary psychology, which is a contentious and problematic article. I watch it, but do not usually edit it. The changes being made at the moment do not conform to normal wikipedia standards. I have requested full protection. As far as school projects go, I have seen students involved in fairly narrowly defined areas, such as certain parts of ecology, trying to add essay-like content in a prominent but WP:UNDUE way to top level articles such as Europe. Mathsci (talk) 23:36, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Perhaps somebody should give advice to Jhicks directly now that he is trying to recreate the content for a third time in the article incubator. Misplaced Pages is not the place for pseudoscientific "essays" of this kind. Mathsci (talk) 23:44, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

This looks like another undergraduate project that has got out of control, cf User:Psyc452-BFrancisco/Evolutionary psychology of Personality. It's Psychology 452 at San Francisco State University as far as I can tell. Mathsci (talk) 00:00, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Matsci, it is an educational project which unfortunately seems lacking in guidance. Please see Misplaced Pages:Education_noticeboard#Evolutionary_psychology_.2F_Psyc452. I'm dropping a line on User talk:Psyc452-GGeorge--they're one of the students and seem like a nice person. Drmies (talk) 00:03, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Possibly this could involve User:Memills, a long term editor of Evolutionary psychology. An account User:Psyc452-mmills created Evolution and culture. Mathsci (talk) 00:33, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Memills now blocked for a week for shenanigans in another field of interest. Drmies (talk) 03:28, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
• Yes, I've been working on the article in the incubator, where hopefully I can get extensive help from the wikipedia community in order to make it presentable for wikipedia. I see your pointsMathsci, and I agree with Bbb23 that the problem was in how you tagged the content because I certainly see the flaws in the article itself. jhicks0207 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhicks0207 (talk • contribs) 03:26, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi all, this work is part of a greater project to increase available information about evolutionary psychology which myself, User:Psyc452-lrockwell, and jhicks0207 are all involved in. We by no means wished to abuse wikipedia by adding our Evolution and culture page, and are working to have it meet wikipedia's standards. Thank you Mathsci for realizing our mistake, we sincerely appreciate your feedback and are only trying to contribute to wikipedia's greater mission to empower and engage people from around the world, to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally. As the information on evolutionary psychology currently on the web is limited and inaccurate, including the current wikipedia page, we are trying to help correct and build upon it. We are not spammers or vandals, we are academics well educated and researched on the field. I am currently having all of our group members, as well as extending this to others working on our same project, the online seminar wikipedia provides for new editors. Incase other students are reading this, here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Training/For_students Thank you all for your contributions, myself and my team members will work all weekend to bring the page up to wikipedias standards. If there are any further issues please contact me. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psyc452-cwlodarczyk (talk • contribs) 04:07, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Sanctions for Memills?

The usernames mentioned above, Psyc452-cwodarczyk and Psyc452-lrockwell, confirm that this editing to articles related to Evolutionary psychology was coordinated off-wiki by Memills (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). There is no doubt that those involved were editing in good faith as part of an educational project. It would appear that they have been misled about the purpose of wikipedia by Memills. He is currently blocked for one week for disruption on Men's rights movement. Adding content on a controversial subject in an uncritical and unbalanced way in the voice of wikipedia is unacceptable. There have been three unsuccessful but repeated attempts to add the same problematic essay-like content: Evolution and culture, Evolution and Culture and Evolutionary Psychology of Culture, and a fourth version of the content is being edited in the incubator. Given his past problematic editing and history of blocks, it would appear that something like a community ban for Memills might now be appropriate. Mathsci (talk) 08:38, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• I haven't looked into the issue but have interacted with Memills elsewhere. I thought it's worth noting that he has a second legit alt account User:Psyc-mmills (separate from User:Psyc452-mmills which is listed above). At this point these accounts are not linked but should be. Also a number of articles were created by this account and have since been deleted. User:Psyc-mmills was also warned by Yunshui in Feb 2013 regarding this issue--Cailil 20:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Super strong support for sanctions on Memills & Co. He's incorrigible, and hundreds of discussion threads over many years have failed to get through to him. Memills only cares about Memills. He has no interest in Misplaced Pages. Viriditas (talk) 02:37, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Other stuff

The initial comment in the above section: "What is the basis for the accusation that Memills deliberately misled and coordinated the others? The only evidence I see is that he has an alternate account with a similar username. Maybe he's participating in the same project as the other editors. Akuri (talk) 00:09, 28 April 2013 (UTC)" is not off topic and should not be hatted. (The rest of the conversion pretty much is). NE Ent 18:47, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

In the section above it is disclosed that Memills edited the project subpage of Psyc-mmills. That second account is a legitimate but undeclared alternative account of Memills. On their talk page they state that they are the professor responsible for this wikipedia educational project. It's a trivial matter to check what's going on off-wiki, but because of WP:OUTING issues we do not discuss that publicly. Nevertheless it does indeed confirm the identification. The on-wiki edvidence, however, is completely adequate and water-tight. (Some trusted administrators and arbitrators are aware of the off-wiki information.) Cailil confirmed the identification on-wiki which is very easy (see above). As regards Akuri's postings, Future Perfect at Sunrise warned him about misusing noticeboards in exactly the way he has above (hijacking a discussion to move onto an unrelated topic). Akuri has ignored that warning and proceeded to replay the previous performance on this noticeboard that resulted in his first narrow range block by Future Perfect at Sunrise. Timotheus Canens blocked a much wider range a second time because the reasons Akuri gave for editing through a webhosting site did not add up, particularly in a contentious subject. He has declared himself to be mostly interested in R&I, with a special interest in WP:ARBR&I. Akuri is currently editing through open proxies. He has not sought or received permission from the arbitration committee. Instead he has accused Timotheus Canens of "wheel-warring." The diffs I gave above concerning the topic of the thread (an educational project) speak for themselves and are unambiguous. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 19:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

APS Misplaced Pages initiative

For background here, there are a number of groups editing Misplaced Pages articles as part of an initiative sponsored by the Association for Psychological Science (APS). See http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/members/aps-wikipedia-initiative for more information. I'm not sure the group here is part of that, but probably it is. Some of the groups are working under the auspices of the Education project and are well organized, others are sort of hacking around. However it is worth emphasizing that nearly all of these people are acting in a good-faith effort to improve Misplaced Pages. Looie496 (talk) 18:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Fladrif with their finger on the trigger

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Someone who knows their history and can remember who's who from a number of feuds needs to have a look at the recent contributions by Fladrif (talk · contribs), who's tagging as db-attack a ton of user pages. I rolled one of them back (I didn't see the attack), but a. I don't have mass rollback enabled and my RSI is playing up and b. this should be handled by someone who knows this stuff better than me. In addition, I have just warned Fladrif on their talk page (no doubt already deleted) for this piece of editing, which someone else might block them for in a heartbeat (I wouldn't object). Drmies (talk) 03:38, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Fladrif removed numerous of my user pages with out notice. I'd forgotten I had them actually, they were leftovers from an arbitration, and would have appreciated a notice if there was a concern. I don't appreciate another editor without notice removing content from my user page. Such an action runs close to vandalizing a user page.(olive (talk) 03:48, 27 April 2013 (UTC))

Well, I don't know what the deal is, but I think that's the last of the noms dealt with. One way or another, if these pages need deletion, they need discussion, not a speedy deletion tag slapped on them. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 04:09, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Quite frankly I'm amazed that "Fladrif" is even able to edit. His violations of core policy astound me, ... but perhaps my thoughts are singular. — Ched :  ?  05:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Something's not right here... This is quite consternating. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:25, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Enough is enough .. We should not be accepting this kind of behavior. — Ched :  ?  05:39, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I strongly agree, enough is enough. This type of behaviour displayed by Fladrif is a bright line violation of our civility policy (which is one of the five pillars). Well, that's all folks! Now go edit somewhere else. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:44, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

This page that Fladrif marked for deletion is actually an evidence page in a now-closed ArbCom case and to my understanding is not to be deleted, I blanked it out of courtesy - I believe several of the pages Fladrif marked were also evidence pages in that or other ArbCom cases involving him. The evidence on that page was used to place Fladrif on a civility parole, yet here we are several years later still having to put up with his vicious and hateful comments and actions such as this recent personal attack on an Arbitrator; continuing the same pattern of personal attacks as he has for years - even after his civility parole by ArbCom. An indef block of Fladrif at this point is certainly not surprising; the surprise is that it has taken this long for some action to be taken. Dreadstar ☥ 06:53, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Fladrif's editing restriction in the TM case was for one year (which ended in June 2011). Even while that restriction was still in effect, the maximum block authorized by ArbCom was for one month. IMO, an indefinite civility block for Fladrif would require a new ArbCom action. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 07:09, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

No one is saying that 2010-2011 ArbCom restriction justifies anything right now, I'm providing a little background into elements of this issue. But I do think there's justification for a very long block on Fladrif with just the recent evidence I provided; personal attacks on several editors, disruptive editing, etc; and I'm not quite done yet. Dreadstar ☥ 07:16, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

No, a block for Fladrif would be entirely acceptable as an administrative action; the existence of ArbCom sanctions does not prohibit community-based action. Still, I have no idea why would qualify as a "personal attack" (as Dreadstar cites; I haven't looked into this all that much). The tagging of the pages is one thing, but those really ought to be simply reverted and moved into "Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/" space anyway.

Ched, you made this block and I am now asking as a fellow editor and fellow administrator, as well as someone who might have to one day review this block as a member of the Arbitration Commmittee, for you to give a more detailed rationale for his block per Misplaced Pages:Administrators#Accountability. NW (Talk) 07:16, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

So, NW, "I'm not the least bit surprised that a mere child lacks the judgment and maturity to do this job" isn't a personal attack? Others seemed to think so; stating that the comment by Fladrif was an "utter disgrace" and "venom". Dreadstar ☥ 07:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you're confused because Fladrif initially misplaced his comment, later moving it so that it clearly was responding to the person intended. Dreadstar ☥ 07:46, 27 April 2013 (UTC).

as a ... fellow administrator, ... member of the Arbitration Commmittee, ??? I wasn't aware there are different versions of WP:ADMINACCT based on the identify of the requestor. The policy statement Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Misplaced Pages-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed. makes no reference to who is making the query. NE Ent 11:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Dreadstar, I did indeed miss that line. I thought the offending sentence was "when the accusation is shown to be utterly specious and untrue, you try to hide behind SilkTork's skirts, and repeat it in a brazen effort to bluff your way through" (which while rude, is directly commenting on actions and not character). The one you bring up is a bit worse, yes.

NE Ent, Ched had said on his talk page: "I will be willing to provide specific diffs upon request if an arbitration situation comes of this. The attacks are many and directed toward multiple editors; and I'm willing to support that if need be." I was trying to remind him that no matter if he did or did not want to explain himself before this reached the ArbCom level (because of some offwiki thing even maybe?), the Arbitration Committee would still need a full explanation even if it couldn't be explained in public. NW (Talk) 21:48, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• NW ... that's a fair request. I am surprised you need to ask, but I will point you to the relevant threads. I'll get back to this within the next 24 hours. — Ched :  ?  07:25, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Good block. I was looking into this whole "new religious movements" debacle tonight (Fladrif was disruptive at the WT:BASC discussion) and found that Fladrif appears to have a long history of unprofessionalism. He deletes everything from his talkpage with no archive, so getting a complete picture may be relatively tricky, and though he's been blocked a few times he seems to have mostly evaded blocks. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Transcendental_Meditation_movement#Fladrif lists over a dozen diffs, some of which are not well-selected (see this diff for a decent example promising a "final warning"). But really, this appears to be a routine thing, continuing without much change or acknowledgment. The other day I tried to engage him on his behavior at my talkpage and he basically refused to discuss it. II | (t - c) 07:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment Strange how Ched who is involved would take it upon himself to block Fladrif. I oppose the indef block and have unblocked the user in question until consensus develops. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• And now we have a clearly involved admin, User:Doc James, blatantly and grossly misusing the tools by unblocking an editor he is clearly and closely involved with over a long period of time, editing many articles together, engaging in many disputes with others alongside each other on a regular basis! This is outright and outrageous admin abuse of the tools by Doc James. Dreadstar ☥ 08:30, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment: On another front, I have been constantly Wikihounded by Fladrif over the last few weeks - so much so that I have felt unable to do any significant editing as anything I did was likely to get jumped on by him. He has subjected me to serious personal abuse and constant uncivil behavior. He even seemed to align himself with the work of a recently banned sockpuppet, the seriously dysfunctional User:Star767 (although I cannot believe that they are in any way related). Much of his activity on my work is centered around abuse and template:bullying. He seems to have a battlefield mentality, bludgeoning away continuously even if there is little or no support from other editors.

I was intrigued by his user talk page arrangements so I have taken the trouble of piecing it all together at User:Penbat/fladrif. Here you will see numerous example of other editors complaining about Fladrif's behaviour over many years. He seems oblivious to his own bad behaviour but keen to find fault with others.--Penbat (talk) 08:44, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

thank you for that work of diligence. I posted once, and established just now what it referred to:

re: what?

Every editor is a human being,
and we need to consider regularly whether our view/approach to an issue brings out the best of humanity or not. (Geometry guy 28 February 2012)

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:39, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

The "what?" referred to this, added for context, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Now you will probably call me involved, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Just to add that it is clearly absurd that an editor who often dishes it out and throws stones at other editors makes scrutiny of his own behaviour difficult by continually blanking his talk page - now at User:Penbat/fladrif.--Penbat (talk) 09:21, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes a mass "db-attack" on loads of user pages by Fladrif only a few hours ago has just been rejected Special:Contributions/Fladrif.--Penbat (talk) 10:51, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I'd like to see a fuller account of the rationale behind a block. I admit to an ignorance of the backstory, which must be fueling this, but characterizing an arb as a mere child is barely enough to warrant a warning, much less a block. I reviewed a few other links, but haven't found anything recent justifying the wailing and gnashing of teeth.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 11:27, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

There must be well over a hundred examples of Fladrif's uncivil behaviour and personal attacks which I could link to but I will leave that to others for the time being. Loads of complaints/warnings by other editors over the years can be found on Fladrifs talk page reassembled at User:Penbat/fladrif.--Penbat (talk) 11:50, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes usually the expectation is that a blocking admin will provide the evidence in question. Not just indefinately block a user and state when asked that they will simply provide evidence latter. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:03, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of expectations: "Administrators may disagree, but except for clear and obvious mistakes, administrative actions should not be reversed without good cause, careful thought and (if likely to be objected) usually some kind of courtesy discussion." So what "good cause" warranted Jmh649 unblocking prior to consensus forming here and without discussing with Ched first? NE Ent 14:17, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Well believe me, the evidence is all there in spades - must easily be enough to get him "hung, drawn and quartered".--Penbat (talk) 14:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Penbat, you have my deepest sympathies regarding your issue with Fladrif. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 14:39, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, for a period of time i was getting my work ripped into by User:Star767 and fladrif at the same time, total nightmare.--Penbat (talk) 14:48, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I am uninvolved. I don't know Fladrif. I do know Ched and like him. I also know Drmies who opened this thread and like him. Fladrif's editing history is prolific, so this compilation of recent diffs doesn't go very far back because it's too tiring. Most of the diffs go to Drmies's point about putting {{db-attack}} on a great many pages. As far as I can tell, those tags were then removed by other editors (usually admins - I didn't pay a lot of attention). Some of the other diffs are somewhat controversial as they attack other editors (not necessarily always to the level of personal attacks). For example, they accuse Ched of vandalism. Mostly, the diffs support a crusade against certain editors based on an apparent back history that I know nothing about (as usual). Here they are (I realize that annotating them would have been more helpful, but that would been even more work):

• Diff of User talk:Dreadstar
• Diff of User:Dreadstar/FDIFFS
• Diff of User:Littleolive oil/Evidence SexieSadie
• Diff of User:Littleolive oil/Will Beback
• Diff of User:TimidGuy/rebuttals
• Diff of User:Littleolive oil/Rebuttals
• Diff of User:Littleolive oil/ AE diffs
• Diff of User:TimidGuy/COIN
• Diff of User:TimidGuy/Will
• Diff of User:Dreadstar/Rebuttal post TM
• Diff of User:Dreadstar/here
• Diff of User:Dreadstar/Sock analysis
• Diff of User:Dreadstar/FDIFFS
• Diff of User:Keithbob/SexySadieDiffs
• (Stopped including diffs of db-attack tags – too many of them)
• Diff of User:Dreadstar/FDIFFS
• Diff of User talk:Ched
• Diff of User talk:Ched
• Diff of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment
• Diff of Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring

In my view, the evidence supports a block. Whether it should have been indefinite is a matter of discretion. Ched is one of the more laid-back admins, so the fact that he felt an indefinite block was justified says something. Whether Fladrif should have been unblocked pending this discussion is another matter of discretion. What's clear to me, though, is that Doc James, given his history with the user, should not have been the one to issue the unblock.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Aha so Doc James has a history with this user, may be worth investigating by someone. Here's a start to that investigation: --Penbat (talk) 16:48, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I have taken the liberty of converting these links to diffs using a diff converter script so interested observers can review them using pop-ups. -- Dianna (talk) 17:09, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Response by Keithbob

Comment: Fladrif has a long history, spanning several years, of battleground editing, bullying and personal attacks. I commend Ched for standing up and taking strong action. I am deeply concerned with involved Admin, Doc James’, reversal of the block in lieu of Doc James' long time association and editing with Fladrif. In my observation, Fladrif is abusive to every editor, Admin or ArbCom member who disagrees with him/her and Fladrif appears incapable of civility in a collaborative environment. Although I could provide more than one hundred diffs of Fladrif's abusive behavior over the past 4 years, I will confine myself to just the 4 months of this current year.

*Here are the behavioral standards Fladriff held other editors to in 2013. Fladrif says:

• • Condescending comments like the above are typical from you, and are personal attacks on other editors beyond the bounds of this project
  • at this point, there should be consequences to continued disruptive editing and personal attacks per WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT
  • A topic ban will not suffice. An indefinite block, after which, if he deigns to grace us with reasons why his erudition should be shared with we peons, and he might then be allowed to soil his shoes walking among the unwashed heathens of Misplaced Pages, is the only reasonable solution

*But here is the condescending and offensive way Fladrif treated others in 2013, Fladrif says:

• • Risker and Dreadstar are getting their panties in a twist over their misreading of Doc's statement
  • one helpful comment, that I am quite certain you will ignore, just as you ignore all advice from more experienced editors. It took you 41 revisions, and counting, to write this pathetic, self-serving, nonsensical, delusional polemic? I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You are in complete denial as to your own serious misconduct, and your protests of innocence and provocation are ludicrous. You want to impress people that you've learned your lesson? Shut up about it and do positive, non-disruptinv work. No wonder you have nearly 50K posts - at the rate you revise your own posts, it's equivalent to 1500 posts by an editor who actually reads what they write before they hit "Save Page". That's nothing to brag about. What an utter waste of bandwidth. With any luck, our paths will never cross again on Misplaced Pages. Have a nice life, kid
  • Fladrif calls Dreadstar: “Olive's and TimidGuy's most loyal yapping lapdog”
  • AN/I should slap Penbat on the wrist and send him to bed without his supper
  • Fladrif taunts Dreadstar on his talk page: that your July 2010 retirement -not to be confused with your November 2011 retirement or your April 2013 retirement- involved you pitching a hissy-fit over WBB not immediately deleting an evidence page after an ArbCom was completed, your maintaining multiple attack pages against other editors on your personal hit list is more than a little hypocritical

• Giving abuse to Arbitration Committee members in April 2013:
  • Fladrif says to AGK: I'm not the least bit surprised that a mere child lacks the judgment and maturity to do this job. You leveled a specious charge (doubly specious, because (i) there is absolutely no reason why an editor could or should not communicate with other editors off Wiki and (ii) the fact is that, although there would be nothing wrong with it whatsoever, there was no off-wiki coordination of this appeal) without any basis other than your suspicions. When the accusation is shown to be utterly specious and untrue, you try to hide behind SilkTork's skirts, and repeat it in a brazen effort to bluff your way through. Implicitly, you accuse WBB and unnamed editors of lying about this to the Community. If you are "aware" of off-wiki coordination, when the editors you imply are involved in that coordination have stated there is none, I suggest you owe it to the Community to either post your proof and be prepared to defend it. Otherwise retract your statement and issue an apology as the last thing you do before resigning ArbCom, surrendering all your tools, and permanently retiring as an editor.
  • Fladrif says to Roger Davies: @Roger Davies: The sense of lèse-majesté emanating from some of the members who imagine themselves to have been forced to descend from the throne and peer out over the battlements at the howling mob at the outer gate to discern where the noise is coming from is disturbing. Who do you think you are?
  • Fladrif says to AGK: @AGK. What you claim to be your core concern is inconceivably misconceived and wrong-headed.
  • Fladrif says to Silk Tork: SilkTork, I wish you'd warned us so we could have put on our hip waders before reading that. Really? Asking ArbCom to reconsider and for other editors to support reconsideration is, in and of itself, battleground behavior. What kind of Catch-22 nonsense is this?..... If this is an example of ArbCom's thinking in this process, it's no wonder you wanted it kept secret, because this level of dissembling and sophistry couldn't survive the light of day. I'm looking so forward to the rationale offered by the other ArbCom members, should they dare to post anything so absurd.

*Battleground editing

• • 2013 I've hand enough of Welner and his employees and flack weasels who insist on rewriting this article as a hagiography. I've taken a meat-axe to the self-published and self-serving piles of BS, and cut this down to what a normal Misplaced Pages article on a self-promoting hired gun witness would look like.
  • 2012 at ANI

*Warnings and feedback given to Fladrif just in 2013:

• • Why did you delete my question? I am not looking to cause trouble or start an argument. I was simply making a request. Couldn't you have at least shown me enough respect to reply?
  • He may have his shortcomings, but that sort of condescending commentary isn't helping anyone. Please refrain from that sort of advice, if you're going to lace it with that sort of negativity, the meaning is lost, and everyone's time is wasted.
  • It is also unhelpful that you immediately delete any comments on your talk page which makes scrutiny of your past activities less obvious and makes it more difficult to conduct a current discussion about your activities. That can be seen as obstructive.
  • If I see ANY more posts like this then I will block you without another warning, and without a moment's hesitation.…. If I see ANY more posts like this then I will block you without another warning, and without a moment's hesitation.
  • I came here to protest against its nastiness. I suppose you were angry and upset, but still. Anyway, I saw Ched had got here before me, and you had promptly removed his warning. You're formally perfectly entitled to do that, but don't you think it's a little embarrassing, for somebody so strong on openness and transparency, to be so quick to hide criticism of yourself?
  • Dude, please take a break: I don't want to see you get blocked.
  • have reverted your edits to User talk:Dreadstar. Given how you do maintenance to your talk page, I'm sure you don't mind if your comments on others' talk pages are summarily reverted. Also, I couldn't rightly decide between calling it trolling and personal attack, so I'll leave that to you. Do consider this a warning--let's say level-3 NPA.
• -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:10, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the evidence provided above, I am now convinced that Fladrif is becoming disruptive and condescending towards other users (including myself) and I deeply resent Wikipedians being abusive towards others. These comments are, to quote Ched, "beyond the pale". Something needs to be done about this matter. His insults and heckling towards me comes off as an utter disgrace and I think it is a blemish on my excellent contribution record on Misplaced Pages. Fladrif has already driven off Dreadstar into retirement a few months ago, and I agree with the observations by Bbb23 and Keithbob about his abusive behaviour. Before I go, I would like to make it clear to everyone that I have an extremely low tolerance regarding comments which I find to be harassing, haranguing, accusatory, inflammatory, incivil, heckling, insulting, condescending, disrespectful, abusive, venomous, yelling, annoying, embarassing, temperamental, rude or threatening, or those that are full of vulgarity. All of these can create a power imbalance in communication and are considered detrimental to the discussion. With that said, I think it's time to hold a discussion regarding if the block should be reinstated or file a request for arbitration. Thoughts? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:41, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

More recent warnings to Fladrif:

• Gerda Arndt says: Every editor is a human being and we need to consider regularly whether our view/approach to an issue brings out the best of humanity or not.
• Reaper Eternal says: I have reverted your recent mass-tagging of various userspace pages as {tlx|db-attack}, which does not apply to those pages. If you want them deleted, take them to WP:MFD as per WP:POLEMIC or as abandoned drafts of RFCs.
• Ched's block comment: I've thought about this for some time, .... and no. Your editing here is not conducive to a collaborative environment. You have been sanctioned in the past for your approach by the arbitration committee, and you continue to attack editors in an unacceptable manner. No Fladrif, enough is enough. If you want some "unblock me" template, .. ask. But your behavior is far beyond acceptable.
• -- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:08, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

One hundred and twenty eight more diffs of Fladrif's abuse of other editors, Admins and ArbCom members

In addition to the 24 diffs I have provided above, here are 128 additional diffs of Fladrif's personal attacks and warnings during the years 2009 thru 2012. Just click here to view them.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:44, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Response from Ched

First, my apologies for not being more timely in responding to the requests regarding WP:ADMINACCT. There is a lengthy history here which requires a great deal of reading, and I do stand by my original block as "indef" and not infinite. I am attempting to sort through a great deal of information and communication, and will do my best to respond as quickly as possible to any questions. A great deal of information in regards to my "justification" of my block are provided above in diffs, and I appreciate any patience that the community would be willing to grant me in the coming future. My apologies for not being able to respond to each and every individual comment. — Ched :  ?  19:00, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Reassembled Fladrif talk page

As Fladrif continually blanks his talk page, to help with proper scrutiny I have completely reassembled all past posts on his talk page at User:Penbat/fladrif.--Penbat (talk) 19:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Response from Jmh649

Yes Fladrif behavior is not appropriate. However neither is handing out an indef ban without providing any justification. I have banned Fladrif for 72 hours based on the evidence provided above. If others wish a permanent ban however IMO this should be supported by community consensus not a single admin. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:37, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

72 hours is a joke. Around 10 editors have already made seriously critical comments above about Fladrif with possibly more to come - that looks like a consensus to me. Also some editors above commented that because of your past involvement with Fladrif you shouldnt be involved here at all . --Penbat (talk) 19:45, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Just to note: There is a difference between "ban" and "block" — Ched :  ?  19:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

In theory, but not really in practice. Malleus Fatuorum 19:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Fair point. I'll concede that. — Ched :  ?  20:05, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Ched has posted twice today at AN/I saying he/she is working on a comprehensive report and several other editors including myself have provided dozens of diffs showing chronic problematic editing. What you should be doing Doc James is undoing your reversal of the indef block by Ched and waiting for the community to complete its evaluation and decide what the period of time should be. Instead you have appointed yourself King Admin and undermined Ched's authority and undermined this community process. You are running interference for a blocked editor with whom you have a long term connection. Just as you have been doing for Will Beback in recent months. This is very troubling. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 20:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

General comments from Fiddle Faddle

I may be the exception here. I have had a decent interaction with Fladrif and have participated in useful collaborative work. I met this editor with no preconceived ideas, though was told they were sometimes awkward to work with. I have had to be assertive to ensure collaboration, but am satisfied with conduct and nature of collaboration. I am not saying it was easy to collaborate, but it was also not difficult, though I can see how it could have become so.

The only area that I have found awkward is their perpetual blanking of their talk page, but they have self identified as OCD, though with the words in a different order, and can forgive that awkwardness.

I have seen poor interactions with other editors, but have not experienced that myself. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 21:24, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Ive started a new ANI on DocJames' involvement in this ANI

Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Questionable_involvement_by_DocJames_on_Fladrif_dispute--Penbat (talk) 20:47, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Can't we keep the whole thing together? OK, I'll start: I do find this troubling. Doc James could have come here to make a case, he could have advised Fladrif on how to get back into people's good graces--but this is drastic and obviously can't be reverted lest that admin be accused of wheelwarring. Drmies (talk) 21:09, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

the merits of the case

I'm a friend of Doc James. My general style as an admin is that I rarely think it's necessary to block. But looking at the material above, and at Fladrif's block log, I would support indefinite. 72 hour blocks have failed in the past, and though normally blocks should be gradated, this behavior is so pervasive that there's no reason to expect anything other than that it would continue after the block. If I were Doc James I'd say something like "I expected what I did to be approved by the community, but I find I was wrong, and reinstate the original block." I see no real reason for a more general inquiry into his work as an admin. Every active admin makes this sort of mistake once or twice. I know I have. DGG ( talk ) 21:42, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I hope every active admin doesn't make the mistake of accusing other admins of being "involved" with no basis in fact. Actually a serious accusation. It depresses me to see Doc James take random potshots like that at the conscientious Ched. It worries me more than the block-unblock-reblock cycle here. :-( Compare my unanswered query on Doc James' page. Bishonen | talk 22:26, 27 April 2013 (UTC).

You comment on me not answering your question after a total of 2 hours and 31 minutes? Seriously? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:21, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Regarding Fladrif, my impression is that he often has a valid underlying point, but he habitually expresses himself in hyperbolic and confrontational language which obscures whatever point he's trying to make. I've seen a number of people like that in my years on Misplaced Pages, and they typically end up indef-blocked, for better or worse. While I don't know that I'd have blocked him myself, Ched's block is a reasonable exercise of administrative discretion, and frankly was pretty much an inevitability.

  Regarding James' unblock, I see Ched's perspective. I definitely wouldn't be happy if one of my administrative actions were reversed without discussion. That said, Fladrif is still blocked at the moment, for 72 hours - which should be enough for us to develop a consensus on whether or not he should be indefinitely blocked. The most constructive way forward is probably to have that discussion and implement its outcome (although I recognize that AN/I is not typically about finding the most constructive way forward). MastCell  22:11, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• I agree that we should try to find a consensus for how long Fladrif should be blocked. But if we're going to do that in the section just below, it should not say "ban" but "block". I didn't see anyone arguing that Fladrif should be community-banned at this point. In addition, not that I care a whole lot, but these kinds of discussions usually take place at WP:AN, not here. AN also has a longer archiving window. Drmies properly brought it here mostly based on the CSD tags, but it has, uh, evolved since its inception.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:31, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Please simply state how long a block (if any) you think Fladrif should have

• Indefinite. His bad behaviour has been going on for years and is obviously deeply rooted. Looks most unlikely he will ever change.--Penbat (talk) 22:28, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite - It's obviously clear that Fladrif won't change his behavior anyway. Having been involved with the project for 6 years and have contributed extensively to 11 good articles and 10 featured articles, and, as people have been kind enough to acknowledge (see User:Sjones23/Barnstars), have managed to improve Misplaced Pages, especially with regards to video game, anime and manga articles. As I have stated above, after taking a look at the evidence, I have been fully convinced that Fladrif has been disruptive towards other users and he is unable to cooperate with anyone who disagrees with him. His conduct to say the least is profoundly detrimental to the encyclopedia. Enough. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:33, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
• Regardless of the header, I think longer statements than a time period should be allowed (!vote, not votes), but I'll try to keep this short. Should this be moved to WP:AN, per Misplaced Pages:BAN#Decision_to_ban? (Not clear on why that rule exactly exists, but AN is 48 hours to archive versus 24 at ANI.) In any case, indefinite. As I related above, I tried to engage Fladrif in a discussion on his attacks and conversational tone and he was uninterested in my help. He has shown no apparent improvement in behavior in several years. Of course, he can always appeal (Misplaced Pages:BAN#Appeals_and_discussions) and if he happened to show remorse and promise to really start to change his ways, I might change my mind. It's not clear he has ever apologized in his entire history. II | (t - c) 23:29, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Your information is imperfect, to wit: policy (WP:CBAN) supports ban discussions on either ANI & ANI; note Misplaced Pages:BAN#Decision_to_ban includes the phrasing "subpage thereof." The archive time (actually 36 hours here) is for the bot to automatically move quiescent discussions into the archive pages and will not affect active discussions. NE Ent 23:51, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Indefinite (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:32, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
• One week --SPhilbrick(Talk) 00:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite. --4idaho (talk) 00:37, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• I'd imagine that I'm expected to comment here. Fladrif's past history weighed heavily in my original block decision. In my opinion nothing has changed in Fladrif's editing style since the arbitration declaration. That is the primary reason I chose the "indef" option in my block. I will always abide by community consensus, but I do believe that "Fladrif" simply is not editing in an acceptable manner. I also think there is a much larger picture here involving manipulation, coercsion, intimidation, and collusion; but that is something for another time and place. In short: I support an indefinite block. — Ched :  ?  01:15, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite-- And in case the 24 diffs of Fladrif's personal attacks and warnings from 2013 outlined in my thread above are not convincing for some folks.... then please have a look at the 128 additional examples of personal attacks and warnings from the years 2009 through 2012, which can be seen here.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:49, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite I'm uninvolved as I have no previous interaction with or knowledge of Fladrif. Reading through the diffs, it seems clear that there is a behavioral issue that can not be solved within a predetermined period of time. Indefinite doesn't mean forever, but there is no fixed amount of time that can assure the community that the behavior will not continue after the block expires. Because of his own actions, we are left no choice but to use an indefinite period. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite, per all the reasons outlined above; this has gone on for far too long and shows no signs of abating. Dreadstar ☥ 03:05, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite. - I never interacted with Fladrif personally, but I watched what they did to others, which made me make my one and only entry on their user page, quoting Geometry guy who said in PumpkinSky's (difficult) return request in February 2012: "Every editor is a human being". Fladrif seemed not to respect that, what can we do? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:39, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite - I've not come across Fladrif myself, at least, not as far as I can remember: but their block log, and evidence here, suggests they aren't really able to contribute in this sort of environment. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:07, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• No more than a week, since I don't see Fladrif's attacks as being any worse than, for example, the attacks that got Dreadstar a 1 week block (on 15 November 2011 ). Also, it is several years since Fladrif's last block, which was 72 hours . Cardamon (talk) 09:02, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite but not infinite. Fladrif has continually shown extraordinary resistance to community standards despite numerous warnings. He should be welcomed back when he can demonstrate sustained collaborative editing for at least 6 months. See the section below for a supplementary proposal. Thryduulf (talk) 10:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite While Fladrif's last block was years ago, his venomous attacks upon others have continued unabated, to wit: on 13 April 2013, where he calls AGK a "mere child" and calls for him to totally stop editing. I suggest the reason for no recent blocks is that admins don't want to have to put up with his venom. I'm baffled as to why Fladrif feels it acceptable to repeatedly behave in this manner. Fladrif has shown a complete unwillingness edit productively in a collaborative environment. We are here to produce an encyclopedia, not do nothing about those who repeatedly denigrate others year after year. If he can show he can edit productively he can come back but in the meantime the community should not have to put up with his appalling behavior.PumpkinSky talk 11:49, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indefinite The block should be indefinite. It can be lifted if Fladrif demonstrates that they understand what they did wrong and promise not to do it again. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:22, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Indef Serious behavioral issues on display here, perhaps the best (worst) example being his attacks on AGK a week or two ago. His conduct makes me skeptical that he's willing to work as part of a community. I'm willing to change my mind, I'd like to see a significant change in attitude first. Mark Arsten (talk) 13:39, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• One week and longer periods if they do not change their behavior. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:57, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: Doc has done the right thing, but I have serious concerns with the allegations that he made about Ched's prior involvement with Fladrif. I will assume good faith and suggest Doc made a mistake, because seen in any other way Doc accusations against an innocent editor and admin would be unconscionable. (olive (talk) 15:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC))

Defining an indefinite ban/block for Fladrif

There is obviously now a consensus above for an indefinite ban/block for Fladrif. I think it is worth thrashing out a clarification here of what that means in practice.--Penbat (talk) 14:16, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Have indefinitely blocked user in question per forming consensus here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:32, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh the deed has now been done. I doubt if there is any more worth saying.--Penbat (talk) 14:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Supplementary proposal: Fladrif may not remove warnings from his talk page

Given all the discussion above about Fladrif's response to warnings, I propose the following indefinite restriction. This will apply regardless of how long he is blocked for:

Fladrif is prohibited from removing or hiding any warning from his talk page within 30 days of it playing placed. Incorrect or tendentious warnings may be removed by an uninvolved administrator at their discretion. He may appeal this restriction after three consecutive months of active editing with no warnings. Thryduulf (talk) 10:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Editors are free to remove anything they want on their talk page and this would just encourage questionable warnings by random detractors looking to decorate his page with hate. It doesn't solve anything and would be twisting the knife. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 11:43, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per DB. NE Ent 12:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Assuming Fladrif is allowed to continue editing at all, it is important for the community to have a convenient view of any legitimate concerns, without being forced to go to unusual lengths to reconstruct his talk page. Worries over vandalism of Fladrif's talk page can be dealt with by the proposal to allow removal of inappropriate warnings by uninvolved admins. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 14:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't see anything that justifies changing the rules for this particular user. There are a lot of users, including difficult ones, who remove warnings from their talk pages. I think it sets a bad precedent for other similar users.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm against micromanagement of talk pages. Different people handle messages in different ways, one size does not fit all. Carrite (talk) 17:03, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dennis Brown. It would be a bad precedent. Cavarrone (talk) 17:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Block information and declined unblock requests are already on the 'do not remove' list, and that is sufficient. While it would make it easier to 'check up' by requiring warnings not be removed, it would, in practice, as Dennis points out, absolutely be troll-bait. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 18:07, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support Bushranger suggests these already cannot be removed, but that's only for active blocks. I think this will become more of a problem if he is allowed back, but in my research I noticed a significant number of warnings which seemed to sort of die on the vine, no doubt aided by deletion. II | (t - c) 19:57, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Er, "only for active blocks" was in fact what I meant. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:27, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Dennis Brown's reasoning. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Questionable involvement by DocJames on Fladrif dispute

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jmh649 controversially unblocked a block by another admin User:Ched on User:Fladrif without complying with "Administrators may disagree, but except for clear and obvious mistakes, administrative actions should not be reversed without good cause, careful thought and (if likely to be objected) usually some kind of courtesy discussion.". At the subsequent ANI Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Fladrif_with_their_finger_on_the_trigger on User:Fladrif several editors have commented that User:Jmh649 is not a suitable person to adjudicate in this case because of his past connections with Fladrif, see . Now he has adjudicated on this ANI giving a mere 72 hour ban even though an overwhelming number of editors (about 10) have expressed criticism of Fladrif. He seems blind to the consensus. In my view User:Jmh649 should step away from this dispute. --Penbat (talk) 20:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• I glanced at the discussion above. To my observation Ched and DocJames appeared to be collegial and non-adversarial. Unless Ched states that an improper administrative action has occurred it is not up for speculation that it has. I suppose it's entirely possible that emails might have been exchanged. Penbat, what do you base your assertion that there was no "courtesy discussion" between the two? I haven't seen this charge levied by Ched. My76Strat (talk) 21:09, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I have never spoken with Jmh649 off wiki. At the moment I prefer to review all evidence and consider what my proper responses should be. I am old. I am slow. I am methodical. My apologies if my replies are not timely, but I would rather review things and consider them for a bit before responding in a hasty manner. I am not shirking my responsibilities, but rather attempting to proceed in a thoughtful and considered fashion. — Ched :  ?  21:19, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Ched, I don't think you have to worry about any untimeliness on your own part. It looks like MyStrat didn't look very far afield, for instance not at your page. You have been clear enough in calling Doc James' admin action improper, and pointing out that he had not attempted any courtesy discussion before (or, as far as I know, after) unblocking: , , , . "I was not even given the common courtesy of a discussion". (And I'm old, too.) Bishonen | talk 21:35, 27 April 2013 (UTC).

Thank you Bishonen, mine was a cursory glance; you can call me Methuselah. I figured either diffs would be posted, or Ched would make a clear statement in due time. You're right though, no worries. My76Strat (talk) 00:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• If admins can't unblock their friends what is adminship good for? 79.119.87.157 (talk) 01:20, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Getting abuse without having to pay for it. NE Ent 02:01, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• To those of you who are objecting to Jmh649 (Doc James) having reversed/modified Ched's indef-block of Fladrif: You're presumably aware that I questioned Ched (on his talk page) regarding his reasons for the indef-block, and that I was not satisfied with his answer that he had good reasons for the block but was not prepared to provide said reasons in detail right away. If I had chosen at that point to reverse or reduce Fladrif's block (rather than going to bed as I did), would you be objecting to my having taken action in the way you are objecting to what Doc James did? And given that I had already asked Ched for a justification which he was unwilling to provide, was it really necessary for Doc James to ask the same question before choosing to take action on his own? — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 02:32, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Whoa there Rich. How have I been unwilling to answer to any thing? You are WAY out of line here sir. I strongly suggest you back your butt up. If you have a problem with me? ... spill it. I will stand by anything I have said or done. — Ched :  ?  02:59, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Strawman question, Ched never said he was unwilling to provide an explanation; Richwales had already stated they were going offline and Ched's response -- referencing "talking tomorrow" indicates a willingness for further discussion. 03:09, 28 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NE Ent (talk • contribs)

(edit conflict) In our exchange at User talk:Ched#Your indef-block of Fladrif, I asked you to "please post more specific info (including relevant diffs) supporting your decision to block Fladrif". You said you were "willing to provide specific diffs upon request if an arbitration situation comes of this". I replied that I felt an action as drastic as an indef-block required reasonable justification right away; and when you repeated that you were prepared to justify your actions (but still had not provided specifics), I asked you to "please do so — now". By the time I called it quits for the night about an hour later, the discussion at WP:ANI had not yet (IMO) progressed to the point where sufficient specific detail had been presented to back up the case for an indef-block. You (and some others) evidently felt at the time that you had a strong enough case, but I didn't see it that way and remained unsettled over a proposal to effectively site-ban a user (even a very abrasive one) without concrete evidence sufficient to make the case clear to uninvolved editors. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 03:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

L (edit conflict)Maybe further discussion wouldn't have been necessary if "lack of satisfactory explanation for block" was also Doc's rationale for an unblock. (A big maybe; he still should have told Ched that he was going to unblock, at the very least.) But it wasn't; he said his rationale for an unblock was that "Ched is involved". That claim, in itself and particularly as a rationale for an unblock, requires its own discussion. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 03:36, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

One would expect that an indefinate block of a long time editor should at least contain an explanation of why it occurred with evidence to support it. This block did not and thus I consider it a "clear and obvious mistakes". All I asked for was a community consensus for the ban in question. How hard would this be to obtain? Simply ask for a show of hands at ANI. Was Fradrif's actions so egregious that he did not even deserve this? Has Misplaced Pages reached a point where an editor with which you disagree can be indefinitely blocked without providing any diffs / evidence and when asked you simply state that you will get to it but are to tired now?

With respect to claims of involvement here is that for Ched and Fradrif and for myself and Fradrif. They come out very similar. We have further involvement here which I consider to be of a significant nature . Anyway I have limited access to Internet right now. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:59, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Without opining on the merits here, a "clear and obvious mistake" is primarily for accidental actions (wrong person, forged signature, etc) or similar, not for judgement calls or exercising a preferred action by the reverting admin. Reverting an admin's block when their actions were clearly intentional is essentially an admonishment, ie: "you shouldn't have done that". That is not the same as "You probably didn't mean to do that" or "you wouldn't have done that if you had known about $x". Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:06, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

My mistake then thanks. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:42, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm really surprised to see James defending his misrepresentation of Ched's relationship to Fladrif. At first I thought it was an impulsive error that he would quickly correct but now I see that he is committed to what appears to be an intentional falsehood. He cites above a diff to an RfA that Ched co-sponsored and which was voted on by more than 100 people (of which Fladrif was one), as an example of Ched being "involved" with Fladrif. On his user talk page James cites Fladrif and Ched's votes on the Will Beback psuedo RfC as "involvment". Does anyone really think that casting a vote in public forum makes you "involved" with every other person who has cast a vote on that page? Are these valid examples of Fladrif and Ched being "involved"?

James' involvment with Fladrif on the other hand is clear and extensive:

1. Fladrif congratulates James on Admin status
2. Fladirf invites James to join him on a topic area he's working on
3. Doc asks Fladrif for his email
4. James and Fladrif are both named parties in an ArbCom case in which Fladrif received a one year NPA restriction.
5. James and Fladrif supported each other in many talk page threads. Here are a few examples: There are many more but this is just the ones from a single article talk page archive-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:03, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok, seriously people. Doc was wrong to unilaterally undo the very valid block - especially with discussion already occurring on ANI. Let's not start pulling out the pitchforks (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Spoof account?

• TrippingHippy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

1-day old user account creating related articles Hamish Miller (dowser), Paul A. Broadhurst, and The Sun and the Serpent in praise of Miller and Broadhurst's book. Appears to be some kind of spoof: articles and edit summaries are peppered with joke phrases such as "funky dudes", "super-groovy" and "greedy capitalism", etc. Talk page antics include accusations of religious hatred and WP:ICANTHEARYOU . - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:37, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Hey man, I ain't no spoof and don't like being called such. I'm a happy hippy. Now I get where you're coming from dude, perhaps we don't share the same views on stuff, and perhaps you don't like hippies or something, but I can mellow with that and tolerate your views. There's no need to come over all heavy. I haven't "accused" anyone of "religious hatred". Please read again and you'll see that I was just warning against that sort of bogusness. I'm not the one calling names here. Sticks and stones won't break my groovy bones. You don't like my lingo, well, I'll try to cool that in my articles for you if you get off my back a bit and chill with deleting my perfectly well referenced and notable work about a late, close friend of mine. Cool? ۞TrippingHippy۞ 14:49, 18:41, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

If you are serious about wishing to contribute to Misplaced Pages, I suggest that you drop the fake hippy-speak right now. It achieves precisely nothing beyond making you look like a troll, and we have too many of those as it is. If your late friend deserves mention in Misplaced Pages, he deserves to be referred to in the appropriate language for a reference work. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is an online encyclopedia, not a place to get your groove on. By editing here, you agree to abide by the community's code of conduct, and part of that is to use proper English grammar in articles. Also, you might want to take a look at WP:COI. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

This sock puppet is now blocked. Looks like another Paul Bedson sock (one of several created in the last few days). Dougweller (talk) 06:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Admin impersonation and other mischief

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User:DxRD, a brand new account, says he is an admin; he's also mucking about on other pages, including changing a SPI case to "closed". Currently in action, should be blocked immediately. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:53, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Blocked indefinitely by Gogo Dodo. De728631 (talk) 17:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Who is Analog Bars (talk · contribs)? RNealK (talk) 19:45, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Most likely User:Dy11111 (Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Dy11111). ChemNerd (talk) 13:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

WikiSkeptic gone wiki-vigilante without a cause harassing editors based on their nationality and also adding original research across multiple articles

WikiSkeptic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has gone wiki-vigilante-without-a-cause, harassing Greek editors by asking them on their talkpage to recuse from editing the article of Turkey, while at the same time he feels free to add any unsourced original research that suits his fancy to multiple articles including Turkey:

• User talk:ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ

==please recuse yourself from the Turkey article== if you are a Greek national, please recuse yourself from the Turkey article. non-greek, non-turk editors should handle the NPOV conflict. -WikiSkeptic (talk) 03:09, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Same message on: user talk Athenean
• Reverting against consensus on Turkey with an attacking edit-summary:

Edit summary: editor Dr.K is a self-described member of WikiProject:Greece and should recuse himself from the Turkey article

• adding unsourced, WP:CRYSTAL, speculative original research in the article of Turkey against multi-editor consensus on the article talk:

With a demographically very young population, barring a full-fledged war Turkey will almost certainly see high economic growth for the near future, a prediction that would be highly subject to chance in the case of fully-developed First World economies.

• Adding unsourced original research on Greek War of Independence
• Adding unsourced original research on Economy of Greece
• Adding unsourced original research on PIGS

From his block log it is apparent that this is not the first time this user has discriminated against other editors. I am asking that the ethnicity-based harassment and wiki-vigilantism-without-a-cause offensive this editor has initiated be stopped permanently so that good-faith and productive editors may edit in peace without fear of unproductive and socially-regressive ethnicity-based discrimination so they can build this encyclopaedia in a spirit of equality with the other editors and not be relegated to second-class editor status by the naive, facile and simplistic narrow-mindedness dictated by bigotry. Same goes for his original research. Thank you. Δρ.Κ.  04:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Background

From 31 March 2012 the following report was discussed at ANI concerning this user:

• WikiSkeptic's disruption. From that report I quote part of Ryulong's comments at the time:

In the latest edit to his user page, he claims that he has violated the core policy of WP:No original research, and his statement was published in a textbook and then used to cite his own original statement. This damages the very reputation of this project and the summation of human knowledge and this should not be allowed at all to continue.

• The edit Ryulong mentions is this one. Quote in WikiSkeptic's own words:

My Latest Victory 1. I posted some Original Research on WP. (social sciences) 2. An academic textbook copied the entry. 3. Somebody (not me) cited the textbook to justify the entry. 4. Hence, I have forever changed the weight of human knowledge.

and

What I Have Taught Misplaced Pages

Unbeknowgnst to most modern readers, about 20% of Misplaced Pages articles constitute 80% of traffic, if not more. Approximately 0.4% of those articles were written by me--- one of the original Wikipedians and writers. Thus, I wrote about 1.7% of all Misplaced Pages content read today. In other words, I am your god.

I run ARBCOM!!!!! WP is dead... long live the animus

• Also from his block log:
• 12 May 2008 Wafulz blocked WikiSkeptic (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 24 hours (Personal attacks or harassment of other users: Racist comments)
• 31 March 2012 Tristessa de St Ange blocked WikiSkeptic (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 1 week (Disruptive editing: Project disruption: Repeated incivility/trolling/baiting, abuse of user page, claims of ArbCom influence.) Δρ.Κ.  06:53, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I second this report, I find this user's conduct odious. Looking over their contribs, I see very few useful edits if any, mostly addition of unsourced nonsense and conflict. Four block after only 800 edits. Suggest blocking indef, this user clearly is not suited to the project. Athenean (talk) 07:56, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree he should be blocked, though I think we should bear in mind cultural differences when reading some of his comments.Deb (talk) 09:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Deb, I'm not sure what you mean by cultural differences but the idea here is that a. He doesn't understand the concept of original research which he defiantly and proudly pushes through most of his career here and b. He abuses and harasses other editors based on their ethnicity. Both of these points are clear imo. He has also afforded himself the luxury of openly and repeatedly flouting and publicly mocking our no-original research core policy while attacking other editors based on their ethnicity and no other evidence. This is clear hypocrisy and has nothing to do with cultural differences. In fact the open mockery and repeated longterm violations of the NOR policy across multiple articles are grounds alone for an indef block. The hypocritical discrimination is just the icing on the cake. Δρ.Κ.  09:42, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

The subtext is clear: You ethnic editors are an underclass. We anonymous bigots, due to our undisclosed background, are superior to you who were suckers to identify yourselves. You ethnics, cannot therefore touch the articles related to your ethnicity. But we anonymous bigots can edit those articles due to our undisclosed background, and our privilege is such, that we can even destroy them by our openly declared mockery and opposition to the fundamental policy of WP:NOR not to mention WP:NPA. Is this the new environment of editing on this wiki? This doesn't sound like Misplaced Pages in the least. It sounds more like a madhouse from a particularly twisted episode of the Twilight Zone where the malicious and incompetent have taken over. Δρ.Κ.  14:37, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

No, we've made it clear a long time ago that anyone is free to edit an article involving people of their own ethnicity and not be afraid of accusations of Conflict of Interest. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Of course you can still be guilty of disruptive editing if you refuse to connect with other editors, but that would be the same whether you were born in Greece or Green Bay, Wisconsin. —Soap— 18:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much Soap for your advice and well-made points. I fully agree with you on all levels. Disruption is not related to ethnicity, it is a behavioural issue. And as you mentioned, it is independent of origin, be it Greece, or Green Bay, or Wisconsin. :) I couldn't agree more. Take care. Δρ.Κ.  21:16, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Off-topic comment Actually I feel it is perfectly acceptable to be biased against Green Bay(ie. Packers). :-D --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:36, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oops. I missed the part that Green Bay is in Wisconsin. I am in no position now to comment on their football team. :) <trying to exit quietly> Δρ.Κ.  21:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

‎71.191.244.33

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‎71.191.244.33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Comes off recent block and continues behavior xhe was blocked for, including restoring info that was removed twice due to BLP concerns. Won't notify as communication has been explicitly rejected. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 09:49, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Lengthy block required. Looks like a static IP to me, and if they're going to keep pushing these edits, they've got no place here. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:59, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Regarding their incessant removal of shared IP notice, WP:BLANKING was mentioned in a final warning. Serious edit war issues with user, even in the oft chance their edits are "right". Any misstep after this exhaust my WP:AGF.—Bagumba (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Notification was provided by User:Cavarrone.—Bagumba (talk) 16:06, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

To User:Seb. Incorrect. I restored the Kenny Anderson information to the talk page bc you were all claiming I didnt discuss edits there. I DID but you keep deleting so then noone is able to see that I DID use the talk page. Also stop removing help banner from my page.

To User:Luke. I am not pushing edits. In fact I am waiting before I do many edits.

To User Bagumba: I am allowed to delete. It is no different than TheRedPenOfDoom deleting his talk page.

To UserCavarrone: Thank You for the notice. 71.191.244.33 (talk) 16:16, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

My guess is that your comments were removed from the article talk page because some of them violate WP:BLP. (For example, suggesting that Anderson's ex-wife is lying.) You need to be careful about what you say about living people on every page here.

TheRedPenOfDoom does have a talk page: User talk:TheRedPenOfDoom. His user page (User:The RedPenOfDoom) has been deleted, but that doesn't hurt anyone. Zagalejo^^^ 19:12, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

@71.191.244.33: WP:BLANKING is very clear: "For IP editors, templates in Category:Shared IP header templates and notes left to indicate other users may share the same IP address." On the other hand, TheRedPenOfDoom is not an IP. I granted you a reprieve. Use it wisely.—Bagumba (talk) 19:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

So the BLP vio stays now? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 19:41, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Can you provide me a link to the BLP violation? I'll take care of this. Dreadstar ☥ 19:43, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

already given above, but here again: section "many children..." was removed 3 times per BLP. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 19:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

That's a link to the entire history of the talk page, are you talking about this section? Dreadstar ☥ 19:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Of course Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 19:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

It seems to be in the context of attempting to improve the article based on one's interpretation of identified sources. I think it's fair to stay on a talk page.—Bagumba (talk) 19:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Then you need to give vandalism warnings to those who removed it, and we need to talk about Dianna's desysopping. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it vandalism, BLP was the justification, and I respect that. I just tend to be more liberal when it comes to talk pages.—Bagumba (talk) 20:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

then you're in the minority here :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:05, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP applies just as strictly to talk pages as it does to articles. And Dianna has done nothing wrong. Dreadstar ☥ 20:07, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Removed the BLP violating material and blocked the IP. Dreadstar ☥ 20:07, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

user:Sandstunk

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This SPA is currently running rampant in Moldova-related articles with this in mind. Regardless of WP:DIGWUREN sanctions, this and this alone should be enough for administrative intervention of some sort, but given their stated purpose on their user page, the case is clearly hopeless.

Besides, with a username apparently mocking user:Sandstein and this RfA vote being their 11th edit, it's highly likely that this is just some old-time banned editor having fun. --illythr (talk) 14:55, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Above text can be consider as an attack. I just want to remove the soviet POV from articles, just read them and you'll notice. My edits were in accordance with CIA factbook. I see no purpose of this attack here. My support for Piotrus is obvious: he fights agains soviet POV (represented here by Mr ILLYTHR). Sandstunk (talk) 15:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• He/she was ndefinitely blocked. Cavarrone (talk) 16:26, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

IP hopper possibly a banned user & copyvio clean up needed

An individual on the Verizon Wireless network has been disrupting List of Power Rangers Megaforce episodes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for the past two weeks, forcing the article to be semi-protected, and has now gone to WP:DRN in an attempt to "compromise" despite the fact I had informed the individual on one of the IP talk pages that the sources were not reliable and the content could therefore not be verified. A full list of the IPs used by this individual is as follows.

• 174.254.201.50 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 174.226.130.147 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 174.236.100.141 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 174.236.66.9 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 174.226.66.192 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 174.255.117.67 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 174.236.77.163 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (IP was also involved in the "Tropical cyclone names" dispute)
• 174.226.192.239 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 174.254.193.95 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 174.252.16.14 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

As with my note about the tropical cyclone names dispute above, I am fairly certain that that this individual is either BuickCenturyDriver or Don't Feed the Zords, as similar IP addresses show up in the former's sockpuppet investigation requests and there is definitely some level of crossover between the two.

Something needs to be done to fully enforce the community bans on these individuals.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm finding that this is most definitely the same individual that caused a dispute earlier in the year on the article under the IP 174.252.16.238 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) as seen here and later by a confirmed sockpuppet here.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

He has now used 70.39.176.20 (talk · contribs · WHOIS); I'm suspecting a proxy.—Ryulong (琉竜) 17:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

The article has been semiprotected, but I think it would now be best to either delete or revdel everything that came after this revision because it all contains copyvios or reverting someone adding copyvios.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:24, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I'll take care of the deletions now. Stand by. Dreadstar ☥ 20:33, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. And please don't forget to restore the semi-protection (until July) when you restore the article. We don't need this mess all over again.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Done, and I extended the semiprotect for six months; let me know if that should be reduced. Dreadstar ☥ 20:37, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

October works too, thank you (it should have been 3 months instead of 1 week last time anyway).—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Echigo mole again

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• Silicate minerals (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

• Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Echigo mole#28 April 2013

Because of two edits which reproduce Echigo sighanature trolling advice, "You're not going to win this one", Silicate minerals is a sock of Echigo per  Sounds like a duck quacking into a megaphone to me. Apart from trolling on this page and at user talk:Memills (the signature posting), they have made and are continuing to make disruptive edits to wikipedia. Please could somebody block Silicate minerals indefinitely? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 16:46, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Yet Another Slow-Motion Edit War

Yet Another Slow-Motion Edit War, this time at 7400 series: (No 3RR violation, because the main edit warrior has been blocked before and knows to keep outside of the 24 hour window.)

Please note that this is recurring issue, and that the usual response (temporary page protection) usually stops the problem -- until it happens again on another engineering-related page.

Warnings given:

Further revert after deleting warning:

ANI notices: --Guy Macon (talk) 20:17, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I assume that is not specifically addressed at me as I have not edited the article in question since the warning was posted on my talk page. Posting a warning to decist and then raising it as an ANI when an editor has decisted is a bit underhand. 86.147.236.27 (talk) 14:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Clearly you are not the problem, yet I am required (see notice at the top of this page) to notify any user who is the subject of a discussion at ANI, even if the only discussion is about them being reverted by a persistent edit warrior. Sorry if it seemed like I was criticizing you; that was not my intent. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:59, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Apostle12, again, and POVPUSH (RE-SUBMITTED)

Below is the blockquoted text of the previous discussion. I did not feel the discussion it generated was adequate. -- # _ 22:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I logged in to put a tag on a medical article that was full of primary non-MEDRS sources. I made the mistake of looking at my watchlist.

Mere days after the previous ANI discussion about User:Apostle12's editing behavior, he has inserted contentious material that had been removed from Huey P. Newton into Black Panther Party, though he is clearly aware of the substantial sourcing and credibility issues -- he took part in the discussions that led to their removal.

The edits at issue in Black Panther Party: -- assertions of criminality and a Kate Coleman SFGate piece -- portraying an allegation, never proven and based on hearsay, that appeared in Pearson's book "Shadow of the Panther" as fact

At Huey P. Newton, he took part in extensive discussions about the credibility of Coleman, both in reference to the SFGate piece and to his insertion of what were deemed non-RS allegations of a romantic relationship between Newton and a movie director:

There have been discussions at RSN already about:

the John Frey "admission" (which was re-inserted here)

the Coleman/SFGate source (inserted here)

(in regards to the allegations of a romantic involvement, there was a DRN case as well, in which Coleman's use as a source was also at issue)

Rather than rewrite the claims to better reflect the sourcing issues, as he suggested he would do at one point on Talk:Huey P. Newton, he has simply re-inserted the contentious claims on Black Panther Party. This, especially given the history, seems as clearn an indicator of WP:POVPUSH as I can imagine.

I attempted to initiate enforcement actions through ArbCom. In the course of the previous ANI discussion Apostle12 received a warning, and I thought that this would qualify as being about "race and intelligence, broadly construed." ArbCom did not feel it was actionable.

I have not notified or engaged with Apostle12 other than place an ANI discussion tag on his page because the previous discussions should, quite frankly, have been enough of an indicator that this source was contentious, and that more care should have been taken with its use. We discussed these sources in excruciating detail, for an extended period of time. I am not willing to get more deeply involved in this discussion right now; I have not even reverted the edits in question, and they persist in the Black Panther Party article.

The reason I am unwilling to engage should be apparent from the Talk page discussions I have linked. If not, well, sanction me for not following protocol. I care more, at this point, about raising the issue of this disruptive, tendentious editing than i do about maintaining my own ability to edit.

And I will now be resuming my wikibreak, and if i have reason to make small edits in the future, such as the one I made at Eculizumab, I will not make the mistake again of checking my watchlist. -- # _ 05:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't this complaint basically just posted to WP:AE and rejected, and with the same claim at the end that you'd be resuming your wikibreak? No comment on the merits of the case, but at a superficial glance it seems like forum shopping. Sædon 09:53, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I see the last topic ban proposal Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive792#WP:NOTFORUM_at_White_privilege#Proposed topic-ban wasn't closed. Does someone want to resurrect it? IRWolfie- (talk) 23:51, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

There wasn't consensus for a topic ban in that discussion, and this forum shopping makes me think this should be closed without any action (and I supported the topic ban). Seriously, you can't leave Misplaced Pages forever only to come back and keep trying to get the same person banned. Well technically you can, but don't expect to get good results. AniMate 00:51, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

So perhaps "wikibreak" needs clarification. For me, in this context, its definition has been "an attempt to avoid dealing with things that make me upset by ignoring them and hoping the whole thing Just Goes Away." Yes, I've suggested it would be permanent. I was, still am, pretty much at the end of my rope with this nonsense, so it may happen, might not, but I will absolutely concede that it's not doing anyone any good by me being dramatic about it. I stayed away for two weeks and didnt have to think about any of this crap. It was a nice two weeks, and i hope next time it will be longer.

So, Mea culpa. my apologies.

All the same, I do want to clear some things up.

1. The AE filing was denied not on its merits, but because of scope. Sandstein's comments there clearly indicate that I was simply wrong in my judgement that these edits qualified as being about "race and intelligence, broadly construed." Personally, I think it was a reasonable mistake, but i am obviously self interested. I would like to think that if i saw another editor do the same, I would extend them the courtesy of chalking it up to a simple misunderstanding rather than assume they were forum shopping. Especially given that they put the link right there and werent trying to hide it somehow.
2. in the ANI case, I brought up NOTFORUM, and then from what i could tell a bunch of admins proceeded to make the issue about racism. this was facepalm-worthy. racism is something that people hem and haw about, and what's racist to one person seems totally normal to another person with different experiences. that is precisely why my complaint in the ANI case was about NOTFORUM, and likewise why my case here is about POVPUSH (and RS, and IDHT, and TE.) I mean, of course I thought the comments were incredibly offensive and racist. I mentioned that they were offensive at the time. but my complaint made reference to the policy specifically, and not to the offensive content on display.
3. in the event that you think my behavior was beyond the pale, I am more than happy to stand up and explain myself. but in the meantime, you have someone flaunting policy on contentious topics that is far more of a threat to the Project. Please, if you feel it warranted, open up an ArbCom case on my behavior, afterwards. I will be happy to comply in whatever way i can, in no small measure because at least then someone will be telling me which policies can be safely disregarded and which ones people actually give a shit about enforcing. which brings me to:
4. I don't give a rat's ass whether you ban Apostle12 or not. I supported it in the ANI filing because it seemed like a reasonable way to prevent the sort of behavior that was problematic, because talking it out seemed not to do anything but make matters worse. If i were itching for a topic ban, wouldn't I have asked for that in the RfC/U? Or in the ANI filing? In the RfC/U, we were asking for just the barest hint of respectful editing behavior from Apostle12, and yet somehow the whole thing got filled up with commenters who blew our concerns off, normalizing it as "frustrated" behavior. Even now I don't fucking care whether he has a topic ban or not. I CARE ABOUT THE POOR SOURCING, POVPUSHING, AND ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR HE DISPLAYS. If there's some way to prevent that, I will be happy as a clam, regardless of if the remedy is community ban or saying nice things about his mother (who I'm sure is a very nice person). Given history though, I don't think that scrutiny has to be off of him for very long before he pull some shit like I detailed above. In case it escaped anyone's notice, I extended multiple offers to him to help edit, to come to a consensus, which in practically every case was both fruitless and excruciatingly long. I did not suggest a topic ban in the ANI filing. I was sort of hoping the community would take what it thought was appropriate action, which in this case was doing nothing, at least so far.

So if you need to, ignore my comments about wikibreaks etc. I am trying to avoid additional stress, and this topic (THE POOR SOURCING AND POVPUSH, JUST TO BE CLEAR) is one that has a tendency to make me stressed, (partly because it's just so fucking obvious, like there is no craft or subterfuge or art to it, which i would still be upset about, but at least could give points for style).

So don't expect me to respond to anything in a timely manner for at least the next few months, e.g. respond to questions. I promise I will just leave it at that, and not spew more of this wikibreak drama crap (that i am sorry for, see above).

And in the meantime, how about addressing the substance of the complaint -- # _ 20:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be much for an administrator to do here. My advice is to perhaps take this to reliable sources noticeboard, file an request for comment, or simply remove the material. Another piece of advice is to embrace brevity. No one responds well to massive walls of text. Keep you complaint succinct and to the point, because a lot of editors and administrators see how much you've written and move on to the next issue because there is SO much to read through.

Also, even though it may be unpleasant, you have to engage with Apostle12. Following his edits and complaining here without engaging him on article talk isn't going to get the results you seek.

Finally, there are a lot of issues at work here, and there have been issues on multiple articles. I'd say kick this up the dispute resolution chain. You've participated in an WP:RFC/U in regards to this user, so perhaps a request for arbitration is in order. That's the best advice I can give you, because I really don't think you're going to get the result you want at this noticeboard. AniMate 01:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Max Borin

The user is apparently new and is on a spree of creating dozens ridiculous articles such as Spoofing your technical friend and the dab Washington Museum to "disambiguate" 2 museums that are not popularly called "washington museum". The user has been warned on their talk page about creating frivolous stub articles but has continued on their merry way creating more and more. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:34, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• I thought I was just helping out. I will try to disambiguate more carefully. Max Borin (talk) 03:39, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
• You have to start by not making up stuff. Drmies (talk) 03:41, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

  I have cleaned up several articles that duplicate existing articles as well. I recommend this editor must create all new articles through WP:AFC (and be temporarily sanctioned from creating articles in the main space) until they are more familiar with the many policies and guidelines for new content on Misplaced Pages. It seems a bit harsh but several people have tried to talk to them with no apparent change in editing pattern. Mkdw 03:44, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

after making the statement " I thought I was just helping out. I will try to disambiguate more carefully" they went on to create this beaut: San Francisco Museum and several others. Every minute delay will result in additional cleanup. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:51, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I have recommended that Max hold off on creating new articles until we can appropriately find a solution that. It is also clear that this editor has a high level of understanding how to use a wiki; redirects, reflists, disambiguation pages, links, bolding titles, and knowing MOS title formats like article name + (topic). Even his first edit is very indicative of an experienced editor. I worry that this editor could be evading a block as this seems strikingly similar to the Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Paul Bedson days ago. Some very troubling similarities. Mkdw 04:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Restoring until an admin can take a look at the mass series of articles created. Mkdw 23:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Orlady

I feel it is my duty to inform the group of a situation that has arisen due to my work on the Category:County government in the United States category. I am sure that many of you realize that this is an area which had been neglected because people do not care enough about it, even though it deserves the attention. County government is just far enough out of people's attention that most people could not name a single one of their elected county officials, yet perhaps more deserving of attention than, for instance, the mayor of a municipality within a county (a person which most people usually could name).

I soon ran into a few small issues that came up, and I responded to the eventual consensus. The matter was the question "Is a county government local government, or is it an agency of state government?" I can tell you for absolute certain, that with a very few possible exceptions, that county governments are agencies of the state government that are locally accountable through elections. The Misplaced Pages consensus was that county government is local government, and I organized it as such. Even thought the campaigning and elections are local, the actual governing involves state powers.

In the course of these discussions User:Orlady was very immature, unhelpful an obstructionist. There were no policy violations, at that time, but the fact is that I lost respect for this person quickly, and for my part I have refused to respond to her immaturity, and informed her not to contact me further. At this point I think I have a case for Misplaced Pages:Harassment, and if it does not rise to that level yet, then I feel I need to put these events on the record, so as to establish that a pattern is occurring.

A) Orlady spammed about a dozen state article talk pages (including Rhode Island and Connecticut which have no county government?!?). At some point I interjected and pointed all the discussion to WikiProject United States, and WikiProject Politics. I was willing to enter into a discussion of the matter, but not 50 discussions. Orlady interpred this as **ME** starting new discussions while there were on-going discussions. Obviously this is very disingenuous.

B) At some point I mentioned my education and experience in the subject matter, and I have not heard the last of it! How arrogant I must be! There is a brain drain problem at Misplaced Pages, and knowledgeable editors are being driven away by the hoi polloi that very often prevails. For myself, when there are editors who are knowledgeable in subject matter in which I am not, I stay out of their way.

C) Orlady specifically mentioned the idea about discouraging me from editing, and the idea that perhaps in the future, I would not be editing.

D) I had asked for some time to do some work on the category, but that has been met with cries that I am WP:OWNing content. So I have been dealing with hypersensitive sniping, nitpicking and reverting of my work in the area. It's hard enough already without her. She appears to be wikistalking me.

E) Orlady has opposed every proposal for moving, renaming or deleting categories, as well as every proposal to merge articles which I have made, and which is her right. However, I feel it is my duty to express my view that she has not brought up a single useful point in the entire course of the discussion.

F) The most disturbing development is that it now appears that even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, Orlady is standing by her false beliefs and imposing it in the content. This is agenda editing, and not appropriate. My claim is that a county government is an agency of the state government, and this claim is supported by several sources, and is what I learned in graduate level studies in local and state government. Here are just a few sources which support my claim: (Alabama, California, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Texas, Virginia, Wisconsin) Furthermore, the NACO website itself states that "...early state constitutions generally conceptualized county government as an arm of the state." Orlady has looked at this evidence, and rather than accept and learn from it, is clinging to denialism1, and trying to rationalize her own views with her own wild interpretations 2. Most recently she deleted a substantial amount of content from County government in the United States which is completely objective information, but which contradicts her agenda.

H) She has posted about me personally, which is not relevant to any discussion underway.

G) Orlady announced her intention to continue to hound me in the future.

I am perfectly willing to account for all of the nuances and variances in county government as the evidence arises. However, At some point I think a topic ban may be in order for Orlady. I need to be able to work in a mutually respectful environment. Could some reasonable and mature editors intervene please?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregbard (talk • contribs)

I have only a few comments to your wall of text. First, for so many accusations, there are very few diffs. Second, just glancing at Orlady's talk page, your comments appear rather lopsided. Third, I took a look at some of the articles, and, in my view, they are a mess. Your just-created article, County government in the United States, has ONE source for a very large article. Then, there's Local government in the United States, which was created quite a while ago. Putting aside some problems (an imbedded Misplaced Pages reference in the lead?), it's not clear to me why you needed to create your article, particularly given yet another longstanding, pre-existing article, County (United States). As an aside, when you report someone here, you are required to notify them; I did so for you.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, my fifteen minutes of reading led me to the conclusion that you are primarily unhappy that consensus went against your viewpoint. Sorry about that, can't be helped. This admin page is not the place to resolve content disputes.

This page is for examining editor conduct, and I can't find anything Orlady did which was sanctionable, certainly nothing meriting a topic ban.

Wrist-slap was deserved and is duly acknowledged/accepted. For the record, I've investigated some of sources that Gregbard offers in support of his claim that counties are in fact state agencies, and I've recorded my analysis at User:Orlady/County by state (structured after his user page of the same name). --Orlady (talk) 01:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

The original poster called Orlady a liar in this post ; I request they strike the comment (preferred) or support it with diffs if unwilling to do so. NE Ent 02:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Other editors have expressed concern to me about Gregbard's ownership and tendentious behavior with respect to his theories on the nature and derivation of local governments in the US, and his use and structuring of categories to support his assertions. He appears to assert that he is entitled to edit-war over categories "Because I had asked for your cooperation and you refused to give it." Acroterion (talk) 02:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• I find the comments: "... you have an entitled attitude..." and "It is very clear that you have supreme confidence in your own beliefs" in the link provided by NE Ent to be ironic, if not outright hypocritical. I'm sensing that there may be a WP:BOOMERANG nearby. — Ched :  ?  02:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I agree that this case appears to star an inbound WP:BOOMERANG. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:17, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

So the question is, what to do about it? Is Gregbard's participation in this particular domain a net positive even as he wars against what would appear to be wider consensus? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 08:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: Gregbard is currently saying the same sorts of things to (and about) Alansohn as he has said to and about me in this section of Gregbard's talk page. --Orlady (talk) 17:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban for Gregbard

• Sheesh... OK I read most of the cites given above and frankly Gregbard's perspective (My claim is that a county government is an agency of the state government) seems quite... unique. To be fair, I am coming to the topic in near total ignorance, but even so, nothing he provided seems to visibly support his position. The Alabama example is a legal dispute over shared costs... and well, "dependent entities" don't tend to take independent legal action. Even the NACO site seems to confirm the consensus position. (Gregbard's NACO quote above was talking about how things were back when state constitutions were drafted, it then goes on to contrast how things are different today). Of the several parties who have participated in discussion, I did not find one who agreed with his position.
• Despite all that, we're not here to rule on content matters. So... what I DO see is someone seriously unwilling to abide by consensus, who ref-dumps and then claims victory (even though the refs are far from conclusive), who has apparently major WP:OWN issues, and who is quite uncivil to anyone who gets in his way. As a result, I'd be well inclined to recommend a topic ban on GregBard for any local government related articles.Manning (talk) 10:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• In looking through the contribs, especially on various talk pages - I can Support this. — Ched :  ?  17:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support - A no-brainer. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:06, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• Support as it seems related changes continue to be made against consensus per this recent editBoogerpatrol (talk) 17:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• Comment You people should be ashamed of yourselves. I came here in good faith to report a situation to the supposedly mature members of the community. The climate here is more similar to a prison yard than an academic senate. Boomerang, indeed. Let me go on the record to state that I put in a great deal of effort in a neglected area, which in any fair and reasonable universe would be appreciated, and I was promptly derided and hounded by people with no special knowledge or experience in the subject matter. I reported the situation to the wider community, and rather than have logic and critical thinking prevail, they got mired in the egos and personalities. I provided about a dozen references, any one of which taken at face value suppports my conclusion, and which together form a strong argument for my claim. Rather than accept the simplest, most reasonable interpretation, you chose to accept the wild convoluted rationalizations of a immature person with no claim to expertise in the area. I stand by my claim that I am the mature adult in the room.

• Even my mature response to her immaturity is being interpreted as *MY* being immature. Orlady's comments were unhelpful, in that they did not address the actual issue, but rather were an attack on myself to which I maturely refused to respond. These discussions are open and readable by anyone at anytime into the future. Let the record show that I did not back down from the ignorant, and the ignorant plowed forward. This is a Misplaced Pages:Fail.Greg Bard (talk) 18:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

"A mature person is one who does not think only in absolutes, who is able to be objective even when deeply stirred emotionally, who has learned that there is both good and bad in all people and all things, and who walks humbly and deals charitably." -- Eleanor Roosevelt, channeled by 71.139.157.86 (talk) 18:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Alternate suggestion to above

• Sigh Ok, I WP:AGF about what Gregbard is trying to do. However, his method is frickin ridiculous. What I would prefer to see is this:

• a 3 month topic ban from making changes to any article related to government, broadly construed. He may continue to discuss changes or potential additions on the talkpage of any government-related article. Gregbard is also subject to civility parole during those 3 months. Although "optional" in my view, I would recommend mentoring for him in order to better learn what CONSENSUS really means, and how this project works as a whole through its many processes, policies and community nature (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 21:43, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Request to eliminate restrictions

Alright so it's been 18 months since User:Bwilkins gave me restrictions because I uploaded several non-free images that I tried to take full ownership of. I believe I can continue on Misplaced Pages without these restrictions and not get into any more trouble. Since September 2011, I have not been called upon at WP:AN/I and have been taking some wiki breaks as a result of my overall good behavior on Misplaced Pages. I understand what I did was wrong and promised not to ever do it again. I have a full understanding of Misplaced Pages's non-free content requirements and rules and need the ability to upload these as I begin to take articles I've expanded substantially to FAC which requires the use of non-free content to illustrate the article and to inform the reader. I've been asking several users on Misplaced Pages that I've been in good terms with to help me with artwork and/or music file uploading when the article I've expanded needs one. I believe I have demonstrated since 2011 that I won't be a menace on Misplaced Pages, and believe I can be counted on to take full responsibility of my actions and not act immature towards editors. Hope you guys can see the good in me and grant me back my full user rights . Best, Jona 01:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Support removing restrictions. NE Ent 02:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Support   little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  02:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I am at least a little bit worried at seeing rapid endorsements of this request when Jona (AJona1992) has not actually described to us (or even linked to) either the specific restrictions that he is editing under, or the circumstances that led to those restrictions being imposed. Does anyone have links to all the relevant discussions?

From what I can piece infer from Jona's user talk page archive, it appears that he created more than one sockpuppet to push article(s?) he was working on through GAR and to engage in deliberate copyfraud. (There was apparently also some personal nastiness, including an unblock request that included "but the bitch needs to know, well everybody, needs to know is that if you piss me off then I'm going to attack" as justification for his conduct.) I can't help but feel that we're being rushed to a decision while being kept in an information vacuum. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:06, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Their block log has been clean since Bwilkins imposed the restrictions. The request is unambiguous in acknowledging their past mistakes as well as their promise to avoid such behavior in the future. I'm willing to AGF this is a sincere request. If Jona betrays this trust, then shame on them and call me a sucker.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  03:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose the misbehaviour described by TenOfAllTrades is pretty strong. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

  I actually apologized to those users I commented on when I was asking to be unblocked. That was years ago and my behavior is nothing like that anymore as you can tell in my more recent archives and has improved since those remarks were made. Best, Jona 03:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

  To be clear, I'm not coming down one way or another on this request. I don't mean to torpedo it out of hand; my concern is that we're missing too much detail to make an informed decision in response to this request. Were there one or more noticeboard discussions that pull together the relevant history and evidence? (Sockpuppet checks, AN/I reports, any previous appeals, etc.?) The discussion on AJona's user talk page gives some hints about what the problems were, but doesn't tie it all together and put things in context. As I said, I do find it troubling that AJona didn't feel it necessary to provide that information – or even a clear list of the restrictions he seeks to have lifted – as part of his original request. Care and attention to process details matter—both for requests to lift or modify sanctions and in uploading non-free content. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment For some past history, I've posted the previous ANI's that Ajona was called up for.

The copyright issues started back in 2010 and were discussed in ANI. The ANI wasn't limited to just copyright, but the discussion at the time cleared the air of these other issues (incivility, edit warring, socking, the usual kitbag)

ANI was where AJona first appealed the restrictions. Ajona's name pricked my memory a bit and it was at the same time that Ajona also agreed to my proposal for a sort of mentorship as a precondition for a lifting of the upload restriction.

Ajona asked for advice this ANI, which wasn't really a request to lift sanctions, so shouldn't be really held against him.

Ajona was restricted from making any image uploads due to their lack of understanding of copyright and attempting to pass off copyrighted images as their own, which was noted in the 2010 ANI. I'd support a lifting of their restrictions since Ajona has managed to keep himself out of trouble with regards to image copyright, but would counsel that they return to image uploading very slowly and carefully. Blackmane (talk) 09:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Restrictions are on top of users' talk page User_talk:AJona1992. For me, all the relevant information is: a. date of restrictions and b. no blocks for violation in the intervening interval.NE Ent 09:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

As far as their block log shows, their last block was in August 2011 and unblocked in Sept 2011 with the aforementioned restrictions. Nothing since then. Blackmane (talk) 10:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support My criteria is similar to Ent's although I consider more than just blocks. Lifting the restriction seems a worthwhile "risk" after this long. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 10:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• waiting for a comment from Bwilkins. (leaning support) — Ched :  ?  16:51, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I didn't include those here because I've apologized to every user I badmouthed to so there's no need to bring my past back up if its patched up already. I still talk (from time to time) to several of them and they are okay with replying back especially User:Moonriddengirl who has given me several links to help me understand Misplaced Pages's non-free content and I sometimes go to her for advice. I also requested several non-free images on Commons to be deleted and worked there for a short time helping fight vandals. If this isn't enough proof then I don't know what else is. I know Bewilkins didn't approve of the loosen of my restrictions (the last time I requested it) because he felt that I didn't understand what I was doing was wrong, but this time around I did and even read several polices about non-free content. I hope you guys can see that I've changed over the past two years. Best, Jona 19:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Question Which restrictions do you want removed ... all of them? I would disagree with removing the restriction to one account - it should stay. Obviously following CIVIL and NPA to the letter should still apply ... and I see no suggestions about what type of non-copyrighted images ant Ajona needs to upload all of a sudden. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Biased RfC and improper closure thereof at Ugg boots trademark disputes

WLRoss (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been involved in a very partisan, occasionally WP:BATTLE manner in a long-running series of content disputes on this article and the related Ugg boots for years. He started a biased RfC on the Ugg boots trademark disputes article. The explanation of the bias is a bit complicated. Essentially, he constructed the question in a way that would produce the responses he wanted. Thirty days later, he requested closure, waited a week, and then closed it himself. Policy based arguments are being carefully ignored; he's relying on a raw vote.

According to WP:RFC, since it's been contentious, formal closure is "advisable." He has refused mediation twice, and he has indicated that he won't withdraw the question, so formal closure seems to be the only remaining option. And according to WP:RFC, formal closure must be done by an uninvolved editor; there's no way for him to weasel out of it. His attitude has been, "Fine, go ahead and report me to ANI" after a warning.

It should be noted that the editor has a history of ignoring WP policy whenever it suits his agenda. The article about Kerry and Kay Danes was stubbed by Jimbo Wales. The article about the Franklin child prostitution ring allegations was stubbed by other senior administrators. Both times for this editor's comprehensive BLP violations. Although the policies aren't the same for this latest case, they're still policies. I first ran into this editor when I noticed his BLP and other policy violations at the Franklin article, and brought them to admins' attention. He's been following me around ever since, taking the opposite side in content disputes.

Most recently, he's followed me to Tea Party movement and immediately joined the content dispute there, on the other side. He's Australian and has never before demonstrated any interest in articles on American politics. This seems to be a violation of WP:HARASS. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 04:27, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Getting someone here to review the closure looks like a good idea but I'm not sure we shouldn't be looking at your own behaviour at the same time. I followed you to Ugg Boots to see if your fierce advocacy of a Tea Party agenda at Tea Party movement while claiming to be an Obama supporter was just an aberration or a pattern wherever you edited. It turns out that you only seem to be interested in two issues and the behaviour is identical on both. Personal attacks, misinterpretation of BLP policy, canvassing, tendencious editing seem to be the norm. Its a pity you were not active before Arbcom took up the Tea Party issue otherwise you would be conjoined to that case. Now I'm involved on the Tea Party issue so it really needs a neutral and experienced admin to take a look, but I think there is a wider behaviour issue for the community here. ----Snowded 06:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Re the two articles where P&W accuses me of bad behavior. The Danes article: Kerry Danes contacted me and asked if I could make some changes to the article. I made most changes she asked for except for ones involving legal documents in her possession that contradicted some media reports mentioned in the article and I told her I couldn't add it because the documents were not in the public domain, I then asked for help from the foundation response team who told me to post it at the BLP board which I did and she thanked me for what I had done. Editors at the BLP board were divided over the material and Jimbo Wales stubbed the article here. The BLP violations referred to unsourced material that had been in the article for four years, none of which was specifically about the Danes. In regards to the Franklin article, P&W originally edited that article to eliminate any mention that the main accused was very prominent in the Republican Party, not because he noticed BLP problems and that dispute lasted months with P&W the only editor opposing mention. He later introduced a source to support his own edits which several editors, including myself later used to add other material he then objected to. He took the issue to three different boards and after failing to get the author declared an unreliable source did get the author’s publisher declared unreliable at an RfC, which left everything in the article sourced to that author with BLP violations as it was now effectively unsourced. That was when he first argued BLP. An alternate source was disallowed as it was behind a paywall so the article was stubbed.
Since then he has brought up the stubbing as a "evidence" of bad behavior on my part in every single disagreement we have. I can add the diffs when I have a lot more time. He was reported for this by another editor to the Wiki-etiquette board which advised him to stop but he continued and it was brought up at a further two boards yet he still continues to bring it up despite frequent requests not to. He has even gone so far as to recently transclude another editors post that made the same claim from his talk page to the Ugg boot disputes talk page. I'm out of here. Wayne (talk) 13:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Just need a neutral third party to close the Rfc. UGH....or is it UGG? I can't tell anymore.--MONGO 14:59, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I have been asked to comment here. The issue seems to be bad blood between Wayne and P&W from prior, completely unrelated, discussions which neither editor can let go of, and which P&W cannot restrain him/herself from constantly bringing up, no matter how inappropriate the situation (just see the initial report here). This has resulted in constant disruption at Ugg boots and related articles (see their related talk pages and marvel at the P&W's constant stream of tendentious editing). While P&W is most at fault here, Wayne isn't exactly helping by allowing himself to be baited by P&W's behaviour. I suggest that both editors should disengage, Wayne by stepping back from the Tea Party article (although P&W's claim that "has never before demonstrated any interest in articles on American politics" is contradicted by P&W him/herself when s/he refers to Wayne's editing about a scandal in Nebraska, which was in America the last time I checked a map) and P&W by practising what s/he preaches: if s/he thinks that Australians should not be working on articles about American political groups, then s/he should refrain from working on articles about Australian footwear. If they can't do this voluntarily, I'd suggest a topic ban on the Tea Party for Wayne, on ugg boots (broadly construed) for P&W, and a mutual interaction ban for both parties (for the sake of clarity, P&W should be restricted from bringing up his/her past disputes with Wayne) so that they can both get back to actually improving articles.

The actual RFC close here appears sound; it would have been better to come from an uninvolved editor, but none seem to have been available (or cared about the subject) but as most support for P&W's preferred option was weak (the one !vote that appeared to give substantial backing to P&W was in fact copied and pasted by P&W from another discussion), if there was any consensus there, it was consensus not to include. Daveosaurus (talk) 19:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Aren't you the complaining editor on all those bogus WP:SPI investigations against me? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Reply by Wayne(WLRoss)

Battle is a bit of an exaggeration. At the Ugg boots article, User:Phoenix and Winslow has generally found himself a sole voice in promoting Deckers Outdoor Corporation in a long-running series of content disputes. Where he has had support, many of those editors have been either blocked as sockpuppets or named as meatpuppets. For transparency: Phoenix and Winslow has active accounts on the German, Spanish, Norwegian, Polish, Romanian and Swedish Misplaced Pages's. None of these accounts have made any edits outside of their respective Ugg Boot articles and all edits are promotional in favour of Deckers. In the case of the Spanish article, it was created by Phoenix and Winslow and is a good example for comparison to the English.
The article Ugg boots trademark disputes was the result of several RfC’s and related discussions at the Ugg boots page and was intended to cover the genericity dispute so it need only be summarized at Ugg boots. The consensus was to cover only the genericity dispute and exclude all other disputes. As the Ugg boots trademark disputes article was stable for 12 months, I applied for WP:GA status. P&W now argued that (paraphrased) the article leant too heavily towards Australian boot manufacturers and their disputes with Deckers Outdoor Corporation and cast Deckers in a negative light when it should also include trade dress disputes Deckers have been involved in. Specifically counterfeits. I made a considerable number of concessions to P&W’s edit requests, allowing content with limited relevance into the article but stood firm on not allowing counterfeits per the previous RfC's.

• As this issue could not be resolved on 21 March I opened an RfC with the heading; RfC: Should this article include other disputes involving Ugg boots? Below I posted Should this article be expanded to include copyright and trade dress disputes involving Ugg boots? I truly can't see how this is not a neutral question so I leave that to admins.
• Phoenix and Winslow then canvassed a large number of editors to take part in this RFC. In his posts he reframed the RFC as "a question of law" and asked editors Is the counterfeiting of brand name goods a "trademark dispute" when the counterfeiters are taken to court?...vote Support if you believe counterfeiting is a trademark dispute when taken to court, or “Oppose” if you believe the reverse is true. Hardly a neutral question.
• P&W bases his arguments largely on WP:PRECISION. This is the "policy based argument" he is referring to. I replied that he couldn’t cherry-pick which portions of WP:TITLE applied to the article and that the article title is the name commonly used by sources for the genericity dispute and is used correctly per WP:TITLE. The article lead also explains this. This explanation was supported by other editors and was given to P&W maybe five or six times.
• P&W transcluded two favourable comments from his talk page to "Support" votes in the RfC without the editors permission. In one case the editor specifically stated he did not want to vote. These votes were deleted by other editors with one being replaced later when the editor gave P&W permission to include it.
• On 25 March, P&W posted other related articles (UGG Australia and Deckers Outdoor Corporation) have counterfeiting as a SUBSECTION of trademark disputes to support his case. I had a look at both articles and found that P&W had edited both the previous day to make the counterfeiting sections sub-sections.
• On 26 March, P&W posted a new competing RfC under "Politics, Government, and the Law" and worded the question the same as in his canvassing posts.
• On 26 March P&W posted these personal attacks against two editors.
• An editor warned P&W about additional canvassing on 26 March and suggested administrative action be taken.
• P&W did not complain about the wording of the original question until 8 April by which time consensus was clearly against him.

On 18 April I applied for the RfC to be formally closed at WP:AN/RFC, specifically requesting either resolution or abandonment due to it being compromised by the canvassing and improper additional RFC. It was one of only two requests for an article RfC closure on the page for several days and requests posted several days after mine were acted on. I waited one week, there had been no reply at WP:AN/RFC, no additional votes for two weeks and no further comments posted for seven days. I was ok with accepting the 7/3 consensus as only two support votes resulted from the canvassing and P&W still has the option of bringing a new RfC at a later date. P&W remained virtually the only editor still objecting and as this same RFC had previously returned the same result twice before, per WP:RFC I closed it, listed the result and added a comment that if there were any objection to bring it up in discussion. After P&W objected I told him to take it to another board if he thought I had closed the RFC in a manner that was not neutral or did not reflect the consensus. He then warned me that if the RfC was not re-opened he would report me to ANI. I told him that I had already offered him that option if he had a problem with me closing it.
In total the RFC goes on for over 14,000 words so it is a big read. I have no problem with my own behavior being scrutinized and accept I may have been short with P&W at times. As far as I'm aware, I have complied with WP:RFC#Ending RfCs closure requirements. Wayne (talk) 12:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I like both of these folks and was sort of "in the middle" at the article as a GA reviewer who became a bit of a semi-mediator. I think that the dominant force is the people dynamics between these two folks rather than the content dispute itself. My main advice is the do a thorough close on the discussion, and to recommend to them to try to avoid increases in contact (e.g. nobody follow anybody). North8000 (talk) 12:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I am currently tutoring a student for his masters degree and he needs to use my computer atm so I will briefly cover this. Phoenix and Winslow and I have only found ourselves editing the same article three times. I was editing the Franklin article before P&W showed up and six months later it was vice versa on the Ugg boot article which I had no idea he was editing. I ended up at Tea Party page two and half years later as a result of User:North8000 becoming the reviewer of the GA I proposed, seeing an invitation on his Talk Page to comment and I had a look. Contrary to P&W's claim that I’ve taken the opposite side, on the Tea Party article, although he objects to some of what I have said he has supported the compromise edit that I proposed there for the lead. Considering we are talking about three articles over a three year period it is hardly stalking. I have also edited many American and several American political articles in the past. Wayne (talk) 13:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Just being clear, I did NOT mean to imply or even hint that there has been any improper "following", and please accept my apology if I did not make that clear enough. What I was trying to say is just a recommendation of a bit of an effort to minimize interaction in areas where it is not already occurring. North8000 (talk) 14:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

A substantial part of the problem in dealing with Wayne is that he constantly spin-doctors and distorts everything, using what can best be described as a "wall of words" defense, and unraveling all the distortions is such a monumental task. I have walked away from the Misplaced Pages project twice because of his behavior. The first time for a month, the second time for about a year. He violates policy whenever it suits him, as the stubbing of the Danes and Franklin articles confirm, and takes Wikilawyering to an entirely new level. For example, as they said at WP:RSN regarding his favorite source on the Franklin article, "Unreliable publisher = unreliable source." I've even posted that quote for him in recent weeks and he still claims that the publisher, but not the source, was found unreliable. As another example, he never had consensus to make Ugg boots trademark disputes limited to the genericity dispute. He had one or two editors supporting the idea, a couple opposed. Several editors who have supported me over the years — MONGO, LuckyLouie, Liangshan Yi, ChristieSwitz88001 and Factchk among others — have never been blocked as socks or found to be meatpuppets. I've been the subject of WP:SPI four different times and walked away clean every time, but he continues to present this innuendo. Some forms of canvassing are acceptable, and the line that must not be crossed is "stacking the deck" — canvassing only the people you know will support you. I have never, ever crossed that line. I could continue, but you get the idea.

• The improper closure of the RfC needs to be addressed. He's using formal closure, he's about as far removed from being an "uninvolved editor" as he could be while still staying on the same planet, and he trampled all over Liangshan Yi in the process. It needs to be closed by an uninvolved editor, preferably an admin, and the closure needs to focus on the policy-related arguments.
• The bias in the original RfC question needs to be addressed. He asked whether copyright and trade dress issues should be included. He already admitted that counterfeiting is a trademark dispute, and the article is about trademark disputes. So continuing to pretend that counterfeiting is a copyright/trade dress manner was dishonest, and designed to get the answers he wanted. This skewed the vote for the first week or so — a critical period.
• And his Wikistalking needs to be addressed. We have spent a substantial amount of time butting heads on four different articles, not three. I've been editing the Tea Party movement article for only about two months, and he shows up. I've been unable to find any evidence that he has ever edited an article about American politics before, but I admit that I've only reviewed the past couple of years of his submissions. He claims he didn't know I was editing Ugg boots, but it's clear that wouldn't have made a difference — he was well aware that I was editing the Tea Party article and showed up, joining the other side in a content dispute immediately. Most of the time I work on only a couple of large articles at a time. Otherwise, it appears that he would have shown up at seven, or eight, or ten of them over the past three years, taking the opposite side on any content dispute in sight, and his Wikistalking would have been obvious long before now. To answer North8000, my decision to start editing the Tea Party article was, in fact, "an effort to minimize interaction in areas where it is not already occurring." I was trying to find an area of WP that interested me, and was not already being WP:OWNed by Wayne. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 17:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Oh, by the way: on the Franklin article, the guy that he partnered up with to WP:OWN the article, and preserve all those BLP violations from that unreliable source, was named Apostle12. Scroll up. Much of what's being said about Apostle12 fits Wayne like a glove. They picked up a lot of each other's dubious skill sets when working on that article. Here we are, two years later ... Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I suggest that limiting Ugg boots trademark disputes to just one type of trademark dispute (genericity) is a form of WP:POVFORK. It directs all material that the WP:OWNing editors find inconvenient to a different article — in this case, UGG Australia. I hope that getting some previously uninvolved and experienced eyes on this will produce a result that is positive for Misplaced Pages. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 18:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Deleting sourced material the Weight of chains

Article The Weight of Chains is having a problem. Couple (obviously Serbian) users constantly remove sourced section "Criticism"

• Staro Gusle (talk · contribs):
• UrbanVillager (talk · contribs)

and others. Please, action! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.3.15.156 (talk • contribs) 05:57, 29 April 2013‎

You neglected to disclose your own participation in this matter, and to notify the users concerned as instructed at the top of the page. Not that bringing the matter here was particularly appropriate in the first place, mind you—this is a re-eruption of a garden-variety content dispute which is already being discussed on the article's talk page, and which was previously discussed there and at other venues such as WP:RSN. It seems the only party not actively discussing the matter (but rather choosing to mischaracterize edits as "vandalism") is the roving IP editor. If more attention to this dispute is required, it should be sought at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring, not here. —Psychonaut (talk) 09:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Whilst we're here, though... UrbanVillager's editing pattern is nothing new, but I am concerned that Staro Gusle is a new account which has immediately started editing on controversial topics - even rather obscure articles which just happen to have been battlegrounds involving a handful of long-established editors. For instance, Malagurski films and Ukshin Hoti. This is their third edit. Their editing spree started editing on 27 April. Compare to this edit by Evlekis, who was blocked on 25 April. bobrayner (talk) 09:56, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

As Psychonaut noted, there has already been a dispute regarding the content in question, and as one of the sides in the dispute, I'd like to repeat that I absolutely support criticism being added to any topic. However, the references that are being used in the new section in question ("Criticism") are not reliable as they consist of Internet blogs and self-published web portals. Desperately adding criticism carried by unreliable sources is worse than not having any criticism until reliable sources are found. Also, thanks to Psychonaut for informing me of this discussion, as the IP never did. --UrbanVillager (talk) 10:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

For other admins who may be unaware, the reference to UrbanVillager's editing pattern above likely means the BM/"Serbian Youth League" stuff: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Bormalagurski/Archive. I remain convinced in the accuracy of the large amount of evidence on how this user is involved in long-term abuse of Misplaced Pages, but I concede that in this latest reincarnation they've mastered their skill of wikilawyering to such an extent that they've rendered our typical methods of curbing such abuse ineffective. --Joy (talk) 10:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree with Joy's stance but that's not a problem we're going to solve here today on an AN/I thread. So; who is Staro Gusle (talk · contribs)? I'm quite busy today so I don't have time to dig through lots different people's edits for comparisons, but it's very difficult to believe this is a new editor. bobrayner (talk) 12:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I saw the piece was removed many times, the source is unreliable and above that, it is very badly written, wording out of place, just looks very out of place on the article and only seems to be forced in by anonymous editors. Staro Gusle (talk) 13:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

As mentioned on talk page, the only problem is "labelling" the sources. Some editors described some sources as "unreliable". The only reason for that is they (e-novine for instance) support left-wing in Serbia, while others like Politika, Večernje novosti are supporters of Serbian right-wing and huge history of war mongering during the period of Break-up of Yugoslavia (which happens to be topic of the movie)

See the section :http://en.wikipedia.org/Serbian_propaganda_in_the_Yugoslav_Wars#Milo.C5.A1evi.C4.87.27s_reign_and_control_of_media_in_Serbia

I love how people present Politika as Milosevic's propaganda newspaper. The newspaper is the oldest daily in the Balkans, founded in 1904, not even Milosevic's parents were born back then, maybe not even his grandparents. And Milosevic was deposed in 2000, died in 2006, while the Politika articles that are cited as sources were all written after 2006. Get over the past, Politika is the oldest and most reliable newspaper in the Balkans. E-novine doesn't even have a print edition, it just re-posts blog posts. As for Joy's comments, I'm sure he or she is convinced that I'm, actually, Boris Malagurski or one of his associates, but this has been disproved in countless Wiki-investigations (and you can start countless more, but I'm sorry, I won't turn into Boris Malagurski, that can happen only in science fiction), and I have never abused Misplaced Pages - if I didn't respect Misplaced Pages, I wouldn't be here or I would've been blocked a long time ago (all I've done is tried my best to add sourced information to articles that are of an interest to me), but I'm getting quite sick of these personal attacks (especially taking into consideration that they're being made by an administrator, among others), just because Joy seems to have personal issues with Malagurski and his work. I'll repeat, I have nothing against adding criticism about Malagurski and his films (I agreed wholeheartedly to the addition of criticism to the Malagurski article that had a reliable Croatian source as the reference), but the goal is not to desperately look for criticism in blogs and self-published web portals. Misplaced Pages doesn't care about personal issues. I'm willing to work with everyone who has the quality of the article and the rules of Misplaced Pages at heart, regardless of whether they like or dislike Malagurski and his work. I personally like some of his films, but I can be quite critical about them too. I wish there was more criticism about his films in reliable sources, because his films deserve criticism as well, as any piece of work does. I repeat, that does not mean we can create a blog post and use that as criticism, just for the sake of having criticism. Or am I wrong? --UrbanVillager (talk) 19:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Before ANI

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is it worthy of Admin notice if an editor attempts to demote a User's reputation during discussions (without really caring what the discussion is and not even adding any input).Lucia Black (talk) 06:06, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Please always provide links to the diff in question (example) for discussion here. To answer your question, grossly insulting, defamatory, or threatening language may merit immediate action such as reporting here and/or WP:REVDEL. See WP:Talk pages and WP:CIVIL. Off-topic comments which only attack can be summarily deleted, and the author warned on their Talk page with one of the standard templates (such as those provided by Twinkle). In mild cases, several warnings may need to be given before it's appropriate to bring here. Calm discussion can, if you're lucky, defuse an abusive situation. --Lexein (talk) 06:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Why provide links if I won't know the outcome? This editor had several issues in the past not relating to this particular case. Niemti recently did atttempt to give bad rep Here's one example: and again Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Opening comments by Niemti.Lucia Black (talk) 07:05, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Based on what I've read, the nudge to the other editor you linked was somewhat impolite, but not abusive, nor creating of a hostile environment, so IMHO no, not requiring adminstrative action. Yes, that editor should not make comments about you: article discussions should not be about editors, they should be about content. On the other hand, I've seen no evidence of you de-escalating or thanking other editors for contributing. Misplaced Pages really isn't the place for strong opinions. Please read WP:TIGERS. It also isn't the place for radical merges done without extensive discussion and definitive consensus. I hope you're beginning to see that. You seem litigious: you've sought administrative action twice, and were summarily denied. These are, in my opinion, very strong clues that you're taking the wrong tack with other editors. I encourage further discussion and calm reflection with other editors at the WP:TEAHOUSE - they're awesome, and probably use gentler language than I do. --Lexein (talk) 09:11, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

That's the issue with ANI, admins have this unwritten rule that allows bad behaviour to occur just because the admin believes s/he was asking for it. Or WP:BOOMERANG where one hurts his/her cause by falling down to the, but honestly we're all human and the worst part there's no medium between severe actions and smaller actions that tick other editors off that will affect in the long run. This can affect good editors (especially the ones who don't trust Misplaced Pages's resolution system). You can't possibly expect a cool headed editor to stay cool aftr constant interuption by those passionate strong opinioned ones.

Niemti was not part of the discussion, was not posting anything at all about the topic, and also has had issues in the past that also had attempts of a block.

So does it even matter if I never thanked anyone for their contributions (during that discussion, because I have thanked editors before. Quite recently). What makes you think I never tried to de-escalate the situation? I'm not stupid and I can tell when editors attempt to "game the discussion" and a specific editor has derailed the conversation so many times. One tends to lose it. But that's not even important. Niemti really didn't care about the topic. All the editor wanted to do was to tell other editors to ignore me. And this is coming from the editor who has had several issues in the past. And I mention this because you seem to keep tabs on failed ANI.

And I HATE how admins take this as a content issue rather than behaviour issue.Lucia Black (talk) 12:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

The opposite, in which admins take the power unto themselves to determine what's right, is a tenfold worse than the system we have now. Admins are not leaders. We are not in charge. We push buttons when asked to in discussions or when previous discussions have determined the conditions to push them without further discussion. If you're looking for "someone in charge" to "right great wrongs", you are better off holding an WP:RFC. We don't run the place, you do.--v/r - TP 13:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Not related to this specific discussion or necessarily to anyone who has commented or is otherwise tied to this specific discussion, but that's funny. --Onorem♠Dil 13:20, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

"What? Of course I was "a part of discussion" (it's especially ridiculous because it's so easy to check), and which is why they asked me to comment. And which is why commented. Knowing from my prior experience, LB is practically impossible to be convinced by anyone (not even by me) about anything (even very trivial matters, with people commenting on how she's "melodramatic" about it), or to agree to any compromise, why never presenting any counter-arguments (besides having a strong opinion and then stonewalling). OK, I'm not needed here, right? Cool. --Niemti (talk) 13:09, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Niemti did nothing wrong here, all he said was that he wasn't really involved or interested in the issue, but that he did know that Lucia had been difficult to work with in the past. Lucia, its your own fault you've grown a reputation for being difficult to work with. (Something I've witnessed first and second hand.) Definitely no action warranted here. I agree with Lexein that Lucia probably needs some reflection - on how she handles herself on Misplaced Pages, her own understanding of incivility, NPA, and what warrants administrative action or a trip to ANI... Sergecross73 msg me 13:20, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

@Niemti: Compromise means both sides give up something. When did you ever gave a compromise where you also gave up on something? We had only 1 heated argument. Just 1. And you were outvoted too. But you were as stubborn as I was (and worst). The other editor "gave up" because it didn't matter how much consensus we gained, you would have ignored it. You were "part" of the discussion in the sense that User:ChrisGualtieri wanted another editor to outvote me (and somehow still believing User:Ryulong was on his side aswell). On another note: Providing no counter arguments? Really? Before this gets anymore heated, I will say that's a flat out LIE. I won't expand on that because just explaining it all is irritating and ridiculous.

@Sergecross: Of course he did something wrong. He provided no discussion relating to the topic and just wants to mention how "difficult" I am to others and should "ignore" me. You're bias and you know it. If an editor vandalized my page, would you agree because you believe their telling the truth? You don't really have a say in this. You and me have our own issues, that doesn't mean I have a reputation everywhere else and it shouldn't even have to be that way. Why should disputes among you and a small handful of editors attempt to overshadow my good editing skills and editing choices?

So what if I'm difficult? And I ask that because its like asking a policeman why he constantly being a stickler about the rules. If I recall correctly, being difficult has its merits: Example Tails (character) name. The only time being "difficult" is an issue if the editor constantly loses. But being "difficult" being negative and positive is subjective. Passionate, inexperienced editors may deem you difficult. Does that mean you have a rep of being difficult. I also noticed first-hand editors end up agreeing with me months later and being approved. So I've seen editors neglect and oppose out of spite (as crazy as it may sound but I got the proof).

Being difficult is something all editors have because its totally subjective. Whether you agree and disagree about what that editor is being difficult for is what makes other editors see you in a good or bad way. And in this case, Niemti didn't even put his imput on the topic, he derailed the discussion making it about me and how I should be ignored. You agree, doesn't makee it right.Lucia Black (talk) 14:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

So, with all that finger pointing, I'll take that as you're not interested in taking the advice you've been given about reflection on yourself and interpretation of policy, huh? Best of luck trying to hammer your views on incivility and misconduct at ANI then... Sergecross73 msg me 14:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

You're not exactly saying I'm wrong. I asked before reporting if the incident would be worth it. And it was. But then the editor tried to turn it around saying I never thanked an editor for contributin or made no attempt to de-escalate (if Niemti was making a relavant point in the discussion and made several points before then I MIGHT have listened). Also attempted to make this a content issue rather than behavior issue. I never once brought up the discussion of the merger. Hence "Before ANI". Most of these editors don't get banned but just barely. User:ChrisGualtieri for example. In the beginning, ignored consensus and attempted to overhaul an article and didn't and still doesn't follow BRD rules. Once reported here, he is forced to discuss but the moment the discussion closes he reverts back. I gave up, months later, an editor user:Ryulong does a revert on his edits. And now that consensus is stronger, has no choice. Instead though makes him out to be his savior or his trump card despite user:Ryulong not agreeing with a single thing (at first didn't agree with me but that was a misunderstanding). But he goes so far to reward a barnstar.

I know the policy well. But admins here have allowed bad behavior because they don't deem it worthy of their attention or see the other editors falling to their level. Let's just say this is just further proof of corruption in ANI. And I'll be proposing a medium between long term incivility, and minor passive aggresive action that will affect in the long run that will compliment ANI better.Lucia Black (talk) 20:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Judging by how many times you've been told you're wrong about "incivility" both at ANI and my talk page through talk page stalkers, makes me think that no, you don't have a good grasp on that concept. I'm not sure how're you're making things seem so complicated. You asked if Admin attention was warranted. You were told no. The end. No action required, this should be closed and archived. Sergecross73 msg me 21:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

That attitude of yours is common in wikipedia. You try to over simplify something. Unless you're n admin, I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself. You don't care what the subject is as long as its against me.

I asked if admin attention was warrranted before giving links. He said it was warrantable (made up word) and I provided links. He derailed the discussion to excuse why no admin action was taking place. And you're continuing to make this about the past rather than focusing on the actual situation. So I could careless about your judgement on me, no one here gave a relevant reason why this shouldn't ANI.Lucia Black (talk) 21:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

REQUESTING ADMIN ONLY: I'll say it again, user:Niemti is informing editors that I'm being difficult and should be ignored in public domain. This editor made no attempt to resolve the actual Topic at hand and made it clear he has no interest in it.

I can understand, in the heat of discussing, editors would defame for the sake of the topic (User:Ryulong and User:ChrisGualtieri), I can even understand if this was done at their talkpage. But in this particular situation, User:Niemti was being abusive.Lucia Black (talk) 21:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Raskolnikoff13 at Günther Reindorff

A relatively new user Raskolnikoff13 decided that Misplaced Pages is battleground, and started to edit-war , , . Note POV statements in the edit summaries. I would have no difficulties going for WP:DRN, but the user seems to not be looking for a compromise solution, despite being warned first in the edit summaries, then more strongly at the talk page of the article and at their own talk page . The user edited after these warnings were issued. I am not willing to revert the article every time just to draw their attention, and they do not seem to react on anything else and have only two edits outside of this article and its talk page.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I have removed a piece of Soviet propaganda. Günther Reindorff was not a Soviet nor Russian, although Estonia was occupied by Soviet Union during the last decades of his life. I have done nothing to apologize and to "warn" me. --Raskolnikoff13 (talk) 10:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

This is a great illustration of my point, that the user basically demonstrates battleground behavior and lack of understanding what neutrality means.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/82.122.74.60

Just for your attention.Tagremover (talk) 10:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

 User blocked for spam. Others are on the revert trail. Basalisk ⁄_berate 10:12, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

User:SAADGT and User:SAADWWE

SAADGT (talk · contribs) and SAADWWE (talk · contribs) appear to both be the same editor who has a history of uploading files with incorrect license information. Both accounts have been blocked in the past (though only the former for copyright abuse), and it seems they're continuing to upload images with misleading copyright notices despite many warnings. While I appreciate that it is difficult for new users to grasp why certain images cannot be used, this has been going on for some time with no effort made on behalf of this user to cease. A simple look at this user's Commons accounts show that they slowly but continually upload images with incorrect rationale. What should be done about this? — Richard BB 14:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Milowent has engaged in unsupported personal attacks, insults and disruptive emptying of categories under discussion

User:Milowent has engaged in multiple very reude actions. This user has called me "The Unintentional He-man women haters club president". I do not appreciate this rudeness. This user has lied about what I said in a facebook discussion on the discussion which had no relevance to wikipedia, and used this to personally attack me on the discussion. In this eduit she implied that those of us who do not see eye-to-eye with her "do not live in the real world. She has called me "the primary source of the problem", when I did not create the discussed category, was not the first person to add to it, I was not the first person to move people into it and out of Category:American novelists. Here persistent attempts to blame me for it and insult me and malign me in the process are very disturbing. They also suggest that their comparison to Nazis and to the support for slavery were both meant to be personal insults at me since she claims that I am personally resposnsible for the problem. Here is where she calls me out with "do you admit or deny" that " your public facebook page you advocated that a female president should be called "presidentess"" I emphatically deny that as a false representation of what I actually advocated. What I advocated is people know as "mission president's wives", and officially identified with that title in the most relevant publications on the matter, such as this Deseret News article that discusses their added role, should be called "presidentesses". This editor did not aplogize for comapring me to those who massively exterminated the Jews and Gypsies. This editor's rhetoric rhetoric of claiming I am "the most responsible" shows that their statements on the discussion of Category:Americn women novelists at CfD that those involved there were like the Nazis, shows that they are trying to specifically compare me to a Nazi. I do not appreciate such personal attacks. This posting of a statement from my private facebook page was totally inaprpriate and clearly constituted a personal attack. Their false explanation of what I said, both on that page and in the discussion of Category:American women novelists is even more disturbing. Here is where they bring up her totally personal attack on me, but falsely representing my postion on titles. Here is where they bring in slavery, Here is where she compares wikipedia editos to "Nazi soldiers". Here is a diff where they trie to ban me from editing an article because the subject has supposedly "directly called into question John Pack Lambert". Tht is a new one, a-I have still to see where the subject personally attacks me, and b-when did it become possible to personally attack an editor and thus ban them from editing your article, and c- All I did was move the person to a more specific, by genre article, yet they have acted like I am somehow the one who has removed text from the article involved, which is totally not true. I find the tone of their comments on JohnHinsdales user page seen here also disturbing. To call other editors edits "fecal matter" is needless rude and combative. I find the personal attacks very disturbing. Editors should not have their comments on wikipedia attack on false represenatations of what they have said elsewhere. To do so is a personal attack that is not justified.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:37, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree that Milowent's behavior is out of control, as indicated by the cited diffs. Some action is appropriate to stop the disruptiveness and incivility. There are multiple parties to the situation, though, so there may be other editors whose behavior needs to be addressed. (I haven't looked to see who else might be at fault here.) --Orlady (talk) 17:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Orlady, I have responded to JPL below. Hopefully you will not cuff me. I invite more editors to be aware of the substantive issues we are facing.--Milowent • 18:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Wow, that is quite the paragraph. To respond to all this would take quite some time. The short version: John Pack Lambert is the primary editor defending Category:American women novelists despite the NYTimes op-ed and numerous other respected commentators uniformly decrying this unfortunate event. Jimbo (whose first comment on the whole drama was titled "WTF" - ban him now for uncivility, btw!) basically suggested he might be banned for this behavior, though there's been no real push for a ban (User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#WTF.3F). What does need to be done is that the problem needs to be fixed. John, unfortunately, has also been willy-nilly creating other new categories since the "scandal broke", including putting the author of the NYTimes op-ed (Amanda Filipacchi) into another new category he created (Category:American humor novelists, also now at CfD). Indeed, I did empty most of the Category:American men novelists category because it was created as a JOKE by an editor who put two females who use initials into it. JohnHinsdale, an infrequent editor, then put about 50 of the best known male American novelists of all time into the category; I believe he did it as a joke, though he has not confirmed that. My actions have been in good faith, the "NAZI OMG" aspersions cast against me have come in the back and forth of discussions and not as personal attacks. I admit that I misunderstood JPL's promotion of the term "presidentess", which is an archaic term for a female president, but not the way he apparently intended it to be used in a context outside wikipedia. I also admit I used the term "fecal matter".

Lastly, I admit, though JPL calls me "she" four times above, that I am male. If I've been a little heated, I promise to calm down. But the most uncivil actions on Misplaced Pages are deeds, not words. And the deed that has been done recently to female novelists, even if done unintentionally, must be rectified.--Milowent • 18:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• An editor holding opinions different than yours is not grounds to compare them to those who put people in slavery or to Nazis. The bottom line is that disagreement with actions does not justify personal attacks. I do not think Milowent understands this.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

See John, this is why you have trouble interacting with folks around here. The way the slavery/nazi references came in was because Obi-Wan Kenobi pooh-poohed the whole categorization problem by saying the U.S. Library of Congress was just as guilty and sexist as Misplaced Pages. The comparison was ridiculous, so I noted the US Government also supported slavery, but that's wasn't a reason to endorse it. Obi then replied to my comment by saying I basically went Godwin in no time flat by referencing slavery--Godwin is a reference to invoking a Nazi comparison, as I noted in response. I did not EVER compare any editor to a slavery supporter or nazi. I tried to maintain good humor throughout a very very disturbing situation, which you have exacerbated in many ways since the "scandal" broke.--Milowent • 18:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Just to correct what Milowent said, my intent in these edits , , was to point out that the world was making a lot of noise about one particular cat, but ignoring the much larger structural issues, both in wikipedia and in the broader world, over which those writing articles in the NY times should be even more incensed. I wasn't joking when I said why aren't they attacking the Library of Congress - these are professional librarians, professional category experts, and even they have so-called "ghettoized" categories for female novelists. Thus either they are also guilty of rampant sexism, or the whole thing is overblown and just a misunderstanding of the nature of categorization and sub-categorization. In any case, Milowent quickly turned the Nazi/slavery thing into a joke, and I don't think the whole Nazi thing is worth exploring further - it was a pecadillo and definitely worth moving on.

Milowent has however (a) admittedly emptied categories that were currently being discussed at CFD, in contravention of policy and (b) behaved in an uncivil manner, throwing around the terms racist and sexist with abandon. For this at least a trout is certainly merited.

In any case, I invite all here, especially Milowent, to take the categorization quiz I put together, so we can see if anyone, on any side of this issue, can correctly and fully categorize a single bio without falling prey to a situation that would get you accused of either "sexism" or "racism". I've spent about an hour in total now sorting out all of the possible categories, and I'm quite sure no-one will pass the test (even my answer key is likely flawed!) - that's the challenge with this domain- you can correctly and in a non-sexist manner categorize someone in 32 different categories, but if you miss one - BOOM - you're a sexist. Non-diffusing gender/ethnic cats are actually quite hard to do really well, that's my main point - so accusations of sexism and racism are uncalled for and serve only to fan the flames rather than help us move forward with a workable solution.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• • If saying "this whole activity is akin to nazi soliders "just carrying out orders," glad to see you make the comparison." Is not saying that those who created a category are like Nazis doing massive executions than nothing is.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Can we please not fill this unmercifully long thread with you two going back and forth on this particular sub-point? Shadowjams (talk) 18:40, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• lol, Shadowjams. You just e/c'ed on following from me: "If you want to get in the weeds all day, I know the admins who work on this page really love it. Let's back-and-forth with increasing indents until we need 50 inch wide screens to read our debate. No need to talk about the substance underlying things."--Milowent • 18:43, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• Hopefully someone with some sense will come along and close it right away - otherwise it will go and and on and on and might get ugly. I've been asked on my page to adhere closely to policy, (especially civility and AGF), which has had a chilling effect so won't say any more at this time. Truthkeeper (talk) 18:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• The disruptiveness over this issue is not limited to these two editors. There are a few others who have been fanning the flames with personally insulting comments and/or allusions to ignominious historical events. It wouldn't do much good to block several editors. I suggest that the experienced users who have been misbehaving (including JPL and Milowent) should withdraw from the battlefield (stay away from the discussions for 24 hours) -- but only after you excise the personally offensive comments you have made. A renewal of hostilities may lead to more severe sanctions. --Orlady (talk) 19:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Surely the best response to this debacle. Mangoe (talk) 19:41, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• To be honest, "mission presidents' wives" is a somewhat unwieldy term to be using, so I can see why someone would want a shorter alternative. "Presidentesses" would probably be too much of a neologism though to be using in articles though. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:53, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I didn't comment on this one - that is another reason for a nice wet trout for Milowent. Going off-wiki, finding a random facebook posting an editor made having nothing whatsoever to do with wikipedia or the articles under discussion, and then mis-representing the intent of that posting in several places is going too far IMHO.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Mark Arsten's comment illustrates why the issue is totally irrelevant. Facebook and news article comment board comments I have made were with the intention of creating a new use of a term. I fully accept that terms are not to be created on wikipedia, and have not to my knowledge tried to do so. I edited the article on Mission (LDS) to reflect the most recent policy changes but did not try to insert the new term into it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Johnpacklambert

User has a history of contentious and frowned-upon practices regarding WP:CfDs and categories. His talk page is littered with requests to change his behavior, and notices of edit-warring regarding the addition or removal of categories. There have been numerous instances of him mass-adding pages to categories he wants kept, and mass-deleting pages from categories he wants deletion. Oftentimes, the adds or deletions are of dubious correctness, and often occur when consensus is forming against him. But also troubling is his OWNership of CfD. JPL responds to almost every CfD out there (a bad practice in and of itself), and often makes 5-10 comments in CfDs, usually deriding detractors. Most troubling is that he's dug in on a number of CfD discussions over a number of months, often making 40 or 50 comments in a single CfD and berating almost everyone who disagrees with him. The combination of this attitude combined with the general dismissiveness of comments on his talk page (when I asked him to tone it down one time, he asked a mop to block me) indicates that JPL has problems getting along with other Misplaced Pages editors. A perfect example of this is how he's reacting to Milowent above; someone disagrees with him, therefore that person should be booted. Jimbo himself has noted that JPL is giving Misplaced Pages a black eye. It's time for JPL to be forced to step away from WP:CfD for a spell. pbp 18:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Response If This user really does not think responding over and over again to people who differe from their views at a CfD nomination is appropriate, then why exactly did they do it on the discussion of Category:People from Los Angeles, California.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban Johnpacklambert from CfD?

1. Support as nom pbp 18:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
2. Oppose. --Orlady (talk) 19:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
3. Oppose. Note that User:Purplebackpack89 previously took this to an RFC - Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Johnpacklambert. There are a lot of broader issues here and singling out one editor will do no good. Timrollpickering (talk) 19:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
4. Oppose - No Shadowjams (talk) 19:06, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
5. No, absolutely not. Disagreed w/ John in the past, but nothing justifies a ban. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 19:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   Comment: Nobody has yet to give a valid reason as to why Johnpacklambert's actions are acceptable. "No" or "Oppose" is not a valid reason, sorry. JPL has clearly been a disruptive influence at WP:CfD for months. As such, the one-word "No" or "Oppose" votes should be stricken unless someone can provide a better reason why JPL's disruptive influence should continue pbp 19:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   Hm. You haven't given reasons, so what exactly should one say other than "no"? Your personal rants aren't reasons. Diffs are. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 19:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   (edit conflict) No, the onus is on you (pbp) to substantiate your claims, not them to substantiate theirs. Also, "someone disagrees with him, therefore that person should be booted": pot calling the kettle black? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:42, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   The burden of proof is on the person asking for the ban. Nobody needs to give a reason not to ban. You need to provide a compelling reason why it should. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   My reasons are pretty clearly delineated in the section entitled "User:Johnpacklambert" above. The general reasoning is his tendency to edit-war over categories, his tendency to mass-add or mass-delete categories from pages when he's losing at CfD, his tendency to respond to almost every comment in CfDs he's started where others disagree with him, and in general major, major, major OWNership issues at CfD pbp 19:55, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   Another rant w/o reasons. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   Excuse me? Ownership and disruption at CfD are perfectly acceptable reasons to be banned from there. pbp 20:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   When are you going to provide reasons/diffs? Prolonged unsubstantiated accusations are personal attacks and could very much lead to your own block or ban. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

6. oppose what looks like an opportunistic attempt at settling an old grudge. Mangoe (talk) 19:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   Note that Jimbo suggested something akin to this on his page. Please comment on JPL's actions, not irrelevant past history between him and me. pbp 19:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

   Pretty sure we consider argumentum ad Jimbonem to be a rhetorical fallacy around here. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:42, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

7. Oppose - per Timroll. There are bigger issues here, and I don't think this solves enough of them. Sergecross73 msg me 19:44, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
8. oppose I have respect for JPL and the work he does on categorization, and even though I sometimes disagree with him I think his heart is in the right place. Also a note: if JPL has emptied cats currently under discussion, please provide diffs - I haven't seen that. I would however, respectfully, ask that he (and I!) slow down on comments on this CFD - the world has probably heard enough from both of us. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
9. Oppose, where is the fire. I looked at the log for the discussions to be normally closed today. In there JPL had one comment in a discussion that had varied opinions and it just so happens that the position he advocated, with a reason, was how it was closed. There is no evidence in that days log of domination or ownership. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:40, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Related issues

Three days ago I posted the following about the whole broad area here. Timrollpickering (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Can some non-involved admins keep an eye on Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 April 24#Category:American women novelists, plus the CFD pages on subsequent days and the categories involved in the various discussions.

What we have here is:

• Controversy about the existance and/or method of population of Category:American women novelists, with the corresponding effect on the contents of Category:American novelists.
• Media attention and off-Wiki notification of the state of affairs.
• An initial CFD discussion that on my screen is already 36 screens long after just two days.
• Other categories being created and often rapidly nominated for deletion and/or merger. So far I've spotted Category:American male writers, Category:British men novelists & Category:American men novelists.
• Edit warring to add or remove articles from all the categories involved.
• Accusations of bad faith and sock puppetry. There's already been one investigation.

...and adding to the complications are not only the media interest but a lot of confusion about how category hierachies work and are understood to work, plus a number of contributors appear to have been dormant for years.

All this is causing some problems and possible violations. Timrollpickering (talk) 20:47, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Dharmadhyaksha

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This user is taking my article to reassesments without informing me and he didn't even posted on the talk page of the article. This user has two of my GA to GAR. Huma Qureshi and 7 Khoon Maaf. I want to ask administrators that Is this the award for working day and night to develop a stub article to a detailed one. Is this my award? I want to ask the administration that we are here to work but, why some have agenda against others. This user once posted on the talk page of Imran Khan (actor) (a bad styled GA passed, how? And why?) that this article doesn't meets the criteria. He didn't opened a GAr for that article. But, why did he opened gar of these two without informing on talk page. This is because he has a problem with me and not the article. Also, 7 Khoon Maaf was passed by an inexperienced reviewer. I want to ask the administration that Is this my fault that an inexperienced reviewer chose my article to review, Is this my fault that he passed that article without being critical. Is this my fault that he didn't find mistakes. This was the reviewers fault as how he can pass an article which has problems. This was not my problem that he grabbed the article to review. I didn't asked anyone to review my article. But, this user reassed my article without even notifying in articles talk page Why? Please, sort it out.Prashant talk 18:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

An admin I suggest closing this asap, it isn't productive or likely to result in action. It's an issue which needs to be sorted out between the individuals without interference. Dharma's behaviour isn't blockable, it's just done grossly in bad faith which is very disappointing.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 19:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

@Dr.Blofeld: Please prove my bad faith. Without that don't make such accusations. By trying to close this case now don't try and run away from the boomarang. You and Pks1142 have talked foul about me on various pages for now. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 19:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Bad faith? Members of the same wikiproject don't go about trying to delist the articles that others of the same project have worked hard towards promoting. They work together and identify issues and work on them to produce results and improvements.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:40, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

DD, you know I respect you as an editor so don't take this the wrong way. But, nominating articles for reassessment a mere few days after they are assessed as GA is unusual. The least you could have done was to have tried to work with the editors first. If you feel they are pushing substandard articles through the GA process, then that too is better addressed directly rather than by pointedly nominating their articles for reassessment. I have to agree with Dr. B that, while there is nothing actionable here, it is rather disappointing. --regentspark (comment) 20:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I have a strong feeling it was related to this comment Prashant said yesterday about an editor you are on good terms with DD. It seems strange that you would then proceed to delist not one but two Good articles he has recently worked towards as if to say "nor are your articles good enough for GA". ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. Looks like Prashant has some assumption of good faith issues of their own to resolve as well. But, since none of this is actionable, I'm going to close this with the suggestion that Prashant and DD work this out between themselves (elsewhere). --regentspark (comment) 21:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive IP Editor at Suburban Express

User:173.197.73.164 has repeatedly removed good-faith, sourced edits from Suburban Express, with the edit summary "undo vandalism": diff 1, diff 2, and diff 3. The IP address appears to remove only material which is unflattering of the company. User:NegatedVoid has argued that this IP address is connected with the company Suburban Express, as the IP address has access to pages on the company's website which appear to be unlinked to the company's main page, and which do not show up on Google searches (i.e. the pages have been created in order to provide a source for Misplaced Pages). Suburban Express has been very active elsewhere online protecting its image. On Reddit, for example, company representatives have pressured numerous users to delete posts under threat of libel suits. This lends further credence to the suggestion that User:173.197.73.164 is connected with Suburban Express in some way. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)