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Revision as of 19:57, 6 May 2013

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Verbosity

The move instructions have quite a long suggested text:

"Place here your reasons for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning is based on search engine results, please provide the results of searches using Google Books or Google News before providing any web results."

What it actually should point out somewhere is that if the move suggestion can not be summarized in one or two sentences it should be separated with a separate signature, one inside the template and one outside, so that what appears on WP:RM will be a short summary. If it can not be easily summarized, simply use (see talk page) ~~~~ and add the full information outside of the template with a signature. WP:RM does not need any of the details, just a very brief indication of the reason for the move. Apteva (talk) 05:18, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

How about:

"Place here a brief reason for the proposed name change."

And outside of the curly brackets add:

"After making the RM request please add a detailed reason for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning is based on search engine results, please provide the results of searches using Google Books or Google News with links before providing any web results. No Internet links should appear in the above brief reason sentence or sentences."

A lot of what I am having to fix are 1) huge long summaries and 2) no summary at all appearing on WP:RM. The above will fix both of those problems. Apteva (talk) 08:57, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Requesting a single page move

(If your proposal involves moving more than one page—for example, if you will need to move one page, such as a disambiguation page, to move another page to that title—please use the process for "Requesting multiple page moves" below.)

To request a single page move, create a new section at the bottom of the Talk page of the article you want moved. Format it like this:

First edit to talk page:

== Requested move ==
{{subst:requested move|NewName}} Place here a brief reason for the proposed name change. ~~~~

Second edit (if needed) to talk page:

A detailed reason for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning is based on search engine results, please provide the results of searches using Google Books or Google News with links before providing any web results. ~~~~

--Apteva (talk) 21:35, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Update:

To request a single page move, create a new section at the bottom of the Talk page of the article you want moved. To keep the summary which appears at WP:RM short, format it like this:

== Requested move ==
{{subst:requested move|NewName}} Place here a brief reason for the proposed name change. ~~~~

If needed add a detailed reason for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning is based on search engine results, please provide the results of searches using Google Books or Google News with links before providing any web results. ~~~~

And for multi moves:

==Requested move==
{{subst:move-multi
| current1 = Current title of page 1 with the talk page hosting this discussion
| new1 = New title for page 1
| current2 = Current title of page 2
| new2 = New title for page 2
| reason = Place here a brief reason for the proposed name change. Do not sign this.
}}

If needed, add detailed reasons for the proposed page name change, ideally referring to applicable naming convention policies and guidelines and providing evidence in support where appropriate. If your reasoning is based on search engine results, please provide the results of searches using Google Books or Google News before providing any web results. Do sign this. ~~~~

--Apteva (talk) 03:14, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate the concern here, but I don't see long RM submissions as necessarily bad - I like knowing what the proposal is about before going to the talk page. I also think that splitting out the RM summary from an initial comment is potentially confusing (one you sign, one you don't; refer to policies in the comment - does that mean don't do so in the RM summary?). In addition, we do already have the note to proposers about additional comments below the sample requests. I'd be fine with simplifying the sample request to say: "Place here a concise but supported rationale for the proposed title change." I'd also be okay with moving the sentences about guidelines and search result evidence to the note to proposers. I'd leave the basic structure as is, however. Dohn joe (talk) 16:09, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

The main point is that we want the proposers to be as verbose as they need to - but just do not want it to fill up the WP:RM page. Another solution is to make the bot truncate everything at say 40 characters, but I would rather do it this way, suggest a short summary for WP:RM and if needed a longer detailed explanation. Some of them can go on for half a page, and include images, and it makes it much harder to scan through the list if all of that gets copied to WP:RM. I agree that it is helpful to know what the reason is before clicking on the discussion link, but not at the expense of taking up a lot of space - if it does not fit onto one or two lines, you really are not going to know anything about it without reading the whole proposal, and that can be done just as easily on the talk page. The sign/don't sign only comes into play if either of the RMsubst: templates are used - and I doubt that the current suggestion would generate any confusion. Apteva (talk) 23:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Do you have an example or two of current RM listings that are too long? I only see a couple that go more than 4-5 lines on my screen, and they don't seem excessively wordy. Sometimes you need 4-5 lines to get the gist across. I agree that sometimes there are poorly written requests or ones that go on too long, but frankly, I think the kinds of people who write those requests won't be deterred from doing so just because the template says to keep it short. Dohn joe (talk) 23:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

• Thiruvananthapuram → Trivandrum – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Thiruvananthapuram isn't listed in many English dictionaries or other sources that do not include native names, and when it is listed, no English pronunciation is provided. Ask yourself: How is Thiruvananthapuram to be pronounced in English? If you can't answer that with the references that an ordinary reader is likely to have access to, then the article does not belong under that name. How would an audio version of this article be created, for example? Trivandrum, on the other hand, is well established in English, and the English pronunciation is readily available.Dict.com, for example, defines Thiruvananthapuram as "the local official name of Trivandrum", while it defines Trivandrum as "a city in and the capital of Kerala state, in S India: Vishnu pilgrimage center. 409,761." For Trivandrum it provides an English pronunciation (, /trɪˈvændrəm/); for Thiruvananthapuram it only provides the Malayalam (ˌθɪruːvəˈnæntæˌpuːrɑːm, no English pronunciation respelling). MW lists Trivandrum but not Thiruvananthapuram. Etc. — kwami (talk) 04:28, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

• Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu → Brazilian jiu-jitsu – Per MOS:CAPS and WP:AT. This is English, not German; we do not capitalize random nouns and noun phrases. The names of sports and games are not proper names and are not capitalized. Cf. jiu-jitsu, chess, snooker, basketball, etc., etc., etc. The real name is jujutsu, anyway, and we don't capitalize after the hyphen in English, so "Jiu-Jitsu" is wrong three times over. A case can probably be made for moving this article to Brazilian jujutsu, but I won't raise that issue now (it would be a debate between proponents of "proper" usage of historical martial arts terminology vs. proponents of following populist but often historically ignorant sources; it is an argument I WP:DGAF about in this case. I'm only after fixing the silly "Capitalization Because I Really Like It A Lot And Think It Is Super-Important"). This is arguably a speedy case as a simple typo correction, but the WP:SSF essay exists largely because aficionados of any particular special interest are liable to argue pretty close to the point of death over capitalizing whatever it is they are especially interested in. PS: See also Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 November 13#Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and subcategories. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 02:12, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Compare these with the typical two or three line entries. What I would suggest is changing the instructions per the above suggestion and see if it has any impact. If none, then it can just as easily be reverted. Apteva (talk) 19:46, 13 November 2012 (UTC) This is what it used to say. Apteva (talk) 19:52, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

It is fairly tedious collecting data, but there is a recent abrupt increase in the average number of words from about 52/entry to about 73/entry. Apteva (talk) 06:00, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Any objections to trying a version that would encourage shorter summaries at wp:rm? Apteva (talk) 08:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

New proposal:

To request a single page move, create a new section at the bottom of the Talk page of the article you want moved:

== Requested move ==
{{subst:requested move|NewName}} Place here a brief reason for the proposed name change. <u>Do not sign this.</u>

And for multi moves:

==Requested move==
{{subst:move-multi
| current1 = Current title of page 1 with the talk page hosting this discussion
| new1 = New title for page 1
| current2 = Current title of page 2
| new2 = New title for page 2
| current3 = Current title of page 3
| new3 = New title for page 3
| reason = Place here a brief reason for the proposed name change. <u>Do not sign this.</u>
}}
Expand as needed for up to 33 similar page moves in one request.

--Apteva (talk) 18:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC) Updated. Apteva (talk) 05:12, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Not counting the page to be moved and the signature, some requests have only five words, or less, but we have one now with over 400 and two others with over 100. The average is about 73, which is higher than it has been before. Apteva (talk) 09:35, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Anyone else interested in this? Apteva (talk) 19:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. The biggest problem with RMs is not reading and citing policy and guideline, and most pertinently, not supplying evidence and using web search results only when it is supplied (even with the current language in place). If there was some way to make this more prominent and persuasive, I would be for it. I don't see much harm in some sort of automatic truncation on the display at WP:RM, though I don't actually see it as a problem at all. The way the list works, it's incredibly obvious where one entry begins and ends. What you suggest here would largely make citing policy and guidelines and supplying evidence a sidenote, that should only be done in rare cases, when we should strive to emphasize the opposite.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:59, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  • How about a fairly generous automatic truncation, say 1000 bytes? Something that will eliminate the problematic entries and have no affect on the vast majority? Apteva (talk) 02:54, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

This is what 1,000 bytes looks like (the original was 2,825, another recent request was 5,966 bytes):

• (Discuss) – Berlin Philharmonic → Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra – As a title in English, "Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra" is obviously the best. I have never seen BPO's records, CDs, DVDs, and MP3-sites written only "Berlin Philharmonic" in unfinished English. They are all credited "Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra" in decent English (below/above "Berliner Philharmoniker" in German). Apparently "BPO" is an abbriviation for "Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra" in English, not for its old official name " de:Berliner Philharmonisches Orchester ", in spite of the explanation in the header of the article. It seems that German people has been mistaking selfishly, though it may be only the result of edits of English persons who are not familiar about how popular Furtwängler BPO(VPO) and Karajan BPO(VPO) have been all over the world. For example, BPO and VPO conducted by Furtwängler and Karajan have been more and more highly evaluated in Japan and still now selling overwhelmingly and constantly more than other conductors and orchestras.Berlin Philharmonic what? Vienn NPThomas (talk) 20:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC), 22:36, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

As I said, I don't actually see a problem, but don't see harm either (especially with 1,000 bytes) and so I'm neutral on that.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:27, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

For comparison, this is what 256 bytes looks like:

• (Discuss) – Berlin Philharmonic → Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra – As a title in English, "Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra" is obviously the best. I have never seen BPO's records, CDs, DVDs, and MP3-sites written only "Berlin Philharmonic" in unfinished English. They are all credited "Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra" in decen NPThomas (talk) 20:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC), 22:36, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Just curious

A question I have asked at WT:AT... How many new articles start off using Title Case and have to be retitled to conform to Sentence case? I figured if anyone could answer this, it would be the regulars at RM who probably deal with this sort of thing all the time. Blueboar (talk) 17:57, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Those tend to get fixed quickly without coming to RM. Dicklyon (talk) 22:50, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

If you look at Special:NewPages, you'll see most capitalized, appropriately, since most new topics are proper names. And you see a few proper names that should be capitalized and are not. Do you see any generics in Title Case? Probably there are a few. Dicklyon (talk) 22:53, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I see a few, but not many. Most of the inappropriate Title Case capitalizations seem to be done by new editors who may not have been told that Sentence case is our standard. (which in itself is something I have to ponder). In any case... thanks for the link. It does help to answer my question. Blueboar (talk) 01:26, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Long-period variable

A BRD speedy revert (RM/TR) was converted to a discussion without reversion at Talk:Long-period variable. Shouldn't this be the other way around, reverting to Long period variable, and then opening a discussion? -- 70.24.250.103 (talk) 03:26, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it should have, but it's hard to reverse course once a discussion gets going. If, however, the discussion closes as "no consensus," it should return to the prior version. I noted that at the talk page. (I also !voted for the hyphenated version, though, as I see it more supported in sources.) Dohn joe (talk) 16:43, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

If I have no targeted name change how do I start a discussion?

I am not sure what protocol is on this matter. I am not sure if the names associated with the following templates are correct. Should we nominated these just to reconsider their names: {{The Sandman}}, {{Sandman}}, {{Sandman navbox}}. I am not sure what to propose as the correct destinations or whether anything needs to be moved.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:08, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey Tony. As to the technical issue, just use a question mark in place of a new name: {{subst:requested move|?|reason=}}. As to the substantive issue, why do you think there's any problem with the current template names? (There must be something behind why you are thinking of questioning them.)--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Have a non-RM discussion on the talk page(s) to find out what the appropriate (consensual or conventional) target name would be, and then start the RM. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:03, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Move request procedure at Berlin Philharmonic

Has the move procedure changed recently? I remember we used to put a move banner at the top of the article page. This wasn't done for the requested change at Berlin Philharmonic, but when I looked I couldn't find the banner tag.

Another problem is that the request for Berlin Philharmonic was linked to a different one for Vienna Philharmonic. How can I ask for the discussions to be separated? I tried to start a talk topic at the latter page but it was deleted (twice) . I'd appreciate some procedural advice. Thanks. --Kleinzach 00:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Is it possible you are thinking of WP:Merge? That involves tags on the article page. Green Giant (talk) 23:55, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The move tag has been on the talk page almost forever. There is a multimove for those two pages, to consolidate the discussion in one place. If it is more practical, they can be separated into two discussions. It tends to get messy to change after editors have already commented. Right now the two pages are very messy. Apteva (talk) 02:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Split into separate discussions. Best of luck. Apteva (talk) 02:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Converting technicals to RMs

Can we ask editors to refrain from creating content-free RMs, neither explained nor supported nor opposed, from contested technicals? That would give the original proposer a chance to think about whether they really want an RM, and if so what rationale to use. We've been seeing a rather of these lame RMs in recent months, which could either go away or become sensible proposals, either of which would be better than what some editors have been doing. Dicklyon (talk) 02:51, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

This is modus operandi for some of us. Others (like me) just delete these after a week. For me either method is acceptable. Bear in mind that there is always a time span between the time that someone has contested the TR and when it gets converted to an RM. I certainly can not imagine a scenario where any delay would make any difference – all RM's by default last 7 days, which in my opinion is plenty of time for anyone to come up with a convincing "rationale". To me it is like a student raising their hand in class, there are no "lame" questions. Apteva (talk) 03:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I know it's your modus operandi, and I know you believe there are no lame questions, but I didn't want to mention you by name. So can you please just stop it; or at least notify the proposer and give them time to make a proper RM first? Dicklyon (talk) 19:57, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree threadbare requests shouldn't be made into RMs. I have boldly created {{Contested technical RM}} to make this easier. Please feel free to tweak the language.

Wherever we might memorialize this, I have a tangent issue. Technical requests are often made into RMs without any indication that it started as a technical request. This often would and does leave the protest, which was geared at the technical request, nonsensical or a bit odd seeming at the RM. For example, Talk:United States v. Windsor#Move?, where I added the note that says "Moved from technical move requests, with the above text." Something instruction like this would work: "Upon making a contested technical request into a requested move discussion, please indicate at the end of the text you are moving that it was moved from technical requests. We suggest :<small>Moved from technical move requests, with the above text.--~~~~</small>"--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)