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• War in North-West Pakistan:
  • A suicide car bombing hits a police station in the Bannu District of northwest Pakistan, killing at least two people and injuring twenty. (Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty)
• Somali Civil War (2009–present):
  • Nineteen people are killed in the Somali capital, Mogadishu, in suicide bombings and firefights between Al-Shabaab militants and government forces. (Xinhua)
• Amid protests for free education by tens of thousands of people in major cities across Chile, police clash with protesters. (BBC)

• Following consultations with fellow academics, Stephen Hawking boycotts the Israeli Presidential Conference Facing Tomorrow 2013 in Jerusalem. (BBC)

• 33 people are killed in the northern Indian state of Himachal Pradesh when an overloaded bus falls into a fast-flowing river. (BBC), (Xinhua)
• 2013 Savar building collapse:
  • The death toll in Bangladesh rises to 823. (CNN)

• The United Nations appoints a three-member panel led by Australian High Court judge Michael Kirby to investigate alleged human rights breaches in North Korea. (BBC)
• The World Trade Organization advised that Roberto Azevêdo of Brazil will be the next Director-General effective September 1, 2013. The formal announcement will be made following a special meeting of the General Council on Tuesday, May 14, 2013. (The Guardian)

• Police in France, Belgium and Switzerland arrest more than two dozen people in connection with the Brussels Airport diamond heist. (Wall Street Journal)
• An Italian appeals court upholds the conviction of former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi on tax fraud and sentences him to four years in prison. (Macleans Canada)
• Jodi Arias is convicted of the first-degree murder of her boyfriend by a court in Arizona. (BBC)
• Ariel Castro is charged with four counts of kidnapping and three counts of rape relating to the 2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio. (Reuters)
• An 83-year-old nun and two others are found guilty of breaking into the Y-12 National Security Complex nuclear facility in Tennessee. (AP)

• Indian National Congress won legislative assembly election of Indian state Karnataka with clear majority. (NDTV)
• British Conservative Party MP Nadine Dorries is allowed to rejoin the party, having been suspended in November 2012 for her appearance on a reality television show during parliamentary time. (BBC)

• In football, Sir Alex Ferguson announces his retirement as the Manager of Manchester United at the end of the 2012–13 Premier League season after 26 years in charge having won 38 trophies. (BBC)

PKK Kurdistan Workers' Party leaves turkey

• Nominated by IP98 (talk · give credit)

• Support. A noteworthy development in that region; now that it's occurred, it should be posted. 331dot (talk) 14:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Looks good. Can we link to Kurdish–Turkish conflict and/or Solution process in the blurb? --LukeSurl 14:49, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

oppose just a blip in the news stories: "fighters prepare to begin move"Lihaas (talk) 14:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support - really 4/25 was the time to post, but people are (understandably) hesitant to believe ceasefire agreements. As such, I am not opposed to posting now, but only if the article is updated with developments between 4/25 and now. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose simply not in the news. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Front and centre of Al Jazeera at the moment. --LukeSurl 23:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support The question of the Kurds is an important part of the state of the Middle East, and the Kurdish rebellion in Turkey is central to that. This is very appropriate for ITN. It is In The (right kind of) News media. Thue (talk) 21:25, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support Seems important enough. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 21:36, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

New WTO director general

• Tentative support. However, the article is too short and it is rather irrelevant to mention that he's the first Brazilian since there were only 5 people in this office so far, each from a different country. --Tone 10:34, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• I've suggested an altblurb. (Note that though he has been elected now, his term of office won't begin till September) --LukeSurl 10:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• At the moment the article is a stub. I'm pessimistic that it will be of sufficient length and quality to post before this story is stale. It may be best to hold out for posting in September when he takes office. LukeSurl 11:00, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support in principle, change in leadership of a notable international body is worth posting; but like Tone said the article should have some more information. 331dot (talk) 11:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Withhold support pending expansion of the article beyond the stub phase. This is a newsworthy event, and I see and hear plenty about this in the news, so significance can be easily verified. We just need a good article to highlight. --Jayron32 13:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support - The article has been improved quite a bit now. If we want to be technical about it, Azevêdo has been declared the consensus candidate after several rounds of consultation, to be officially elected on the 14th (a formality). While the process has involved some voting, it's a bit murkier than a simple election, thus I've changed the alt-blurb above to "announced" rather than "elected". --LukeSurl 18:59, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• We also have a nice free image of the dude as well. --LukeSurl 20:11, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Alex Ferguson retires

• Nominated by TheOriginalSoni (talk · give credit)

• Comment. As I understand it we generally don't post retirements, especially from the sports world. 331dot (talk) 09:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

  You're right, but for this guy we'll probably post as his retirement is extremely notable. Support after update. Mohamed CJ (talk) 09:50, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Obviously his career is notable (although some might say that with that much money to spend on players, any monkey could have done the job), but he's old, and his retirement is surely no surprise, and one of the least notable aspects of his career. HiLo48 (talk) 09:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support Very newsworthy in large parts of the globe and makes a nice change from the boring litany of deaths and results of one type and another. For those not in the know, think of the retirement of the Babe Ruth of football coaching. And for what it's worth, this is NPOV: I think he's a thoroughly unpleasant individual. --Dweller (talk) 10:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support - ITN is understandably lukewarm about retirements, but a fairly long tenure as the coach of what is probably the most well-known sports franchise in the world is enough for me to give this one a pass (hopefully without setting a precedent for future sports retirements). --Bongwarrior (talk) 10:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support - this is probably the "biggest" news this year from a football POV, and is probably more noteworthey than who wins the Premier League or the Champions League. But when the two other events automatically(?) gets posted at ITN, it might be too much football in this month. Mentoz86 (talk) 10:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support as per Bongwarrior and Mentoz86. --LukeSurl 10:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support He is the longest serving manager in English football and most successful based on trophies, which are notable in itself. His tenure coincided with a dormant United winning their first league title in 26 or so years, and following it up with their first double. Became the first and (since only) manager in England to do the treble. United have always been a big club domestically, but he has put them on the map globally, albeit with controversy. Lemonade51 (talk) 10:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - '71-year-old man retires' isn't news, it's business as usual. For big football news, I'm waiting for the Champions League final. I really don't see this as worth posting. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Every manager will retire someday. --61.245.25.9 (talk) 10:24, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. We never post retirements of sportspeople, writers, actors etc. Even a retirement of a horse, proposed a couple of weeks ago, was rejected. Simply not ITN material. --Tone 10:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Absolutely not. The IP is correct. For the most popular sport and most popular team crowd (which seems to justify almost every football nomination), have a read at WP:POPULARITY. --IP98 (talk) 10:38, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support: there's a reason he's Sir Alex Ferguson, after all. This is way more newsworthy than "gay person comes out of the closet" we had a week ago. (Disclosure: Liverpool fan, got one wish left) Sceptre 10:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • "there's a reason he's Sir Alex Ferguson" nice, if your country has a monarchy to bestow some totally honorific title on you then your totally predictable retirement as manager from a professional sports club locks in your international importance? Really? --IP98 (talk) 10:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Seriously. There's no way we'd post the death of any given life peer, much less knights and dames. Those, in themselves, are insufficient claims to fame. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • • I odn't think the editor was suggesting that the 'Sir' title alone was enough.--Johnsemlak (talk) 12:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Question Most of the Support posts here tell us about Ferguson's successful career, which is unarguable. But this submission is not about his career. It's about his retirement, at an appropriately mature age. Can somebody tell me why THAT is important? HiLo48 (talk) 11:07, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • In my opinion a retirement can be notable enough for ITN if the career is sufficiently exceptional (e.g. Usain Bolt, Roger Federer, Alex Ferguson) and they retire while still performing at a high level. This case meets both my requirements as he just won the Premier League. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 11:28, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    • No he didn't. His extremely expensive players won it. HiLo48 (talk) 11:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
      • The verb "won" can apply, depending on context, to the team, individual players or the manager. The Guardian: "a man who has won 13 league titles...". Anyway I answered your question; you may disagree with the answer. The retirement is notable because the career is exceptional, and because it was still at the highest level at the time of the retirement. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 12:16, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)×2 Oppose per AlexTiefling. Yes he's had a longer tenure than most, but he's still going to be actively involved with the club, and his retirement will have absolutely no effect on anything substantial. He's a viable candidate for RD when he pops his clogs, but he's not done so yet. Thryduulf (talk) 11:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support: Generally retirements should not be posted, and significant deaths should be RD. However, some deaths (e.g. Thatcher) should be blurbs and, in my opinion, some retirements should be posted. The retirement was not totally predictable, he could have remained manager for several more years. He is still performing at the top of his field and is one of the most successful managers of all-time. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 11:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support. No, we don't normally post retirements. But this is no ordinary retirement:

• He's one of the most successful managers in any sport.
• He's the longest serving manager of any major European league and a longer serving manager than currently in any US professional sport. People of this standing don't retire every day.
• A common objection is that sportsmen 'retire' and then return to the game. In this case, it is unlikely given his age that he will return as manager. But even if he were to, his record of 25+ managing a single club will definitely end with this retirement.
• This is rather sudden and unexpected. Of course there's been speculation that he would retire soon but there was near certainty until yesterday he would manage MU next year at least.
• this is being covered everywhere in the news. Lequipe has a picture of Fergusion saying 'Au Revoir'. Front page picture on the Sydney Morning Herald. Third headline on Yandex news in Russia. Top-of the webpage piture of Ferguson at CNN International edition; third headline on US edition. Front page at Al Jazeera. Gazetta dello Sport has a large picture and a caption: "E'il momento guisto"

--Johnsemlak (talk) 11:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

So what? They put Hollywood romances and the subsequent babies on the front page too. HiLo48 (talk) 11:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

There's a difference between a serious news story and tabloid fodder. If ITN had a 'no sports' policy that would be one thing. This is a much bigger sports headline than many posted at ITN.--Johnsemlak (talk) 11:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. I might not oppose this if he was completely leaving the sport, but he is still going to be working for the team. He also announced a retirement in 2001 and then changed his mind. His career might warrant a full blurb when he passes away(hopefully not for a very long time). I also think that it is a slippery slope to post this retirement; it will make it harder to say no to the next one. 331dot (talk)
• Strong support The retirement of a person who was widely considered the 'most popular' in one of the 'most popular' sports is noteworthy. We generally don't post retirements of any sort but it doesn't absolutely mean that ITN is closed for such nominations. Sir Alex Ferguson has also been one of the very few persons who are commonly associated with football; there are very few people who know about football and don't about him. Having managed Manchester United for almost 27 years and winning an immense number of titles in any competition puts additional weight to this nomination. The fact he's been honoured with the address 'Sir' perhaps is not the only case in English football but surely means much for the importance of his personality. Note that a week ago we posted a story concerning a basketballer who has never been among the top and most remarkable players in the sport and received attention because came out to admit that he's gay. I usually don't recall on any precedent but this one is much more notable than that one.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

'Gay' is an adjective, not a noun. 'Sir' is a title, not an address. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:02, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your remarks, but the use of 'gay' in my comment translates into something different than being 'happy'; additionally, my expression 'honoured with the address' should indicate on the title.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

You refer to Jason Collins as 'a gay'. You've left the adjective hanging without a noun. I'm not stupid enough to think you mean 'happy'. 'Gay' is an adjective in all its meanings, and you wouldn't say he was 'a tall' or 'a skilful', so why 'a gay'? But in any case I'd rather you stopped whining about Collins. I think it was a wrong decision, but it's in the past. It sets no useful precedent for this or any other proposal. I can't even understand what your latest comment about Sir Alex's title means. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:02, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

And have a look at WP:POPULARITY. We're not a football news ticker. It's time to stop singing the popularity song. This item is not on the Google world news top 20. --IP98 (talk) 13:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

I have. It's been brought up twice, but it seems to be about deletions, specifically how popularity (or age/fame etc.) is no substitute for reliable sources. His "popularity" results from his successful career, which is covered by reliable sources, as is his newsworthy retirement at an age when he could continue his career for several years. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose per 61.245.25.9.--В и к и T 12:04, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose could meet RD in future, but unless he retires to join a Mars mission and is replaced by Prince Harry, no. μηδείς (talk) 12:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Man quits job" is very rarely much of a story—compare it to the two retirements we've posted recently (the papacy and the Dutch monarchy) and it seems quite out of place. GRAPPLE X 12:25, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

And in those two cases, it was more about the change in the occupant of the position than the retirement itself; additionally a Pope had not retired in several hundred years. 331dot (talk) 12:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per HiLo48, AlexTiefling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nbpolitico (talk • contribs) 12:35, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support Alex Ferguson represents a unique case. Of course, all nominated items can be reduced to boring-sounding descriptions of what they are. What makes something ITN-worthy or not is what is in the details, not the broad description of the event, and Ferguson's singular success and longevity in leading what is arguably the most successful and profitable sports team in the world for as long as he did bears special attention, which is why news organizations around the world are giving it that attention. Insofar as our readers are getting this story in their consumption of the news elsewhere, and thus are likely to be interested in more reading about Alex Ferguson, this seems appropriate for ITN. --Jayron32 13:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support, without setting a precedent, but when it comes to football coaches, Sir Alex Ferguson is a bit in a league of its own, for the length of its tenure at Manchester United and the news that this is coming to an end is noteworthy indeed. Snowolf 13:47, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. I have to agree with many others. "Old man retires" is about as uninspiring as "old man turns 100". And winning 13 championships is hardly special in a league that basically consists of four teams and lots of filler. Resolute 13:54, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Strange that it is an unique achievment then... We've posted "old lady dies" earlier this year, second on the main page is "someone wins", at every Olympics we warn people that "sport will happen at a higher than average rate" and we kindly inform them when the sports rate returns to normal. Reducing items to the extreme is a poor argument. Discuss the specifics of the case, not the non-specifics. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 14:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    • By "old lady dies" do you mean the old lady who was the Prime Minister of the UK and the subject of a major motion picture? --IP98 (talk) 14:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Got it in one. I would support that posting, of course, just pointing out that removing all specific details would make nearly all nominations unpostable. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 15:07, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support It is safe to say I am no admirer of Ferguson. As a fervent supporter of his team's cross-town rivals, I have a strong antipathy towards him, his methods and personality. But in his field, this is a hugely significant event. A number of the opposes seem to me to rather miss the point. Yes, he's old, and old people retire (though it had been widely assumed that the only reason Ferguson would step down would be ill health, making this decision a surprise). Its his very longevity that makes this worthy of note. A typical football manager lasts something in the order of 18 months in the job. Ferguson's 26+ year tenure is pretty much unique in the modern game. Only Guy Roux can claim longer, and his was a small provincial French club, not one of the biggest names in the sport. Add to that Ferguson's remarkable trophy record (he says through gritted teeth) - Manchester United went 26 years without winning a league title before Ferguson's first. Under him, they have won 13 of them, a tally unlikely ever to be equalled by any manager. Oldelpaso (talk) 14:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose We do not post sports transactions here. Precedent has been set and shouldn't change. Don't make me nominate Mariano Rivera in October... – Muboshgu (talk) 14:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support The media (both sports and general) are all over this, and understandably so. The people opposing this as simple 'old man retires' are only showing they know absolutely nothing about the biggest sport on the planet. How many times does the retirement of a domestic football club manager ever elicit a reaction from the leader of that country or the FIFA President? Never in my life time, that's for sure. Ferguson is to management what Pele was to playing, and I'm damn sure Misplaced Pages would have posted his retirement. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 16:14, 8 May 2013 (UTC) In addition, those claiming that becuase he's not leaving the club altogether means him leaving this specific post isn't significant, are similarly showing total ignorance of the topic. As manager, he ran the club from 'top to bottom' and as such can be said to have been largely responsible for their enduring & unprecedented success. As an ambassador/director, he will simply be an occasional adviser with zero operational responsibility (if he became anything more than that, the media would quickly latch onto it and try to turn it into an internal feud, a la Kenny Dalgiesh at Liverpool). Gruesome Foursome (talk) 16:26, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Here's an illustration of my opening line if anyone doubted it - the announcement was made around 9am this morning, and yet it was still the opening story on BBC News at Six (ahead of the 2013 Queen's Speech and updates on the Cleveland abductions). Similarly, it's still the top story on the The Independent's website, above the Cleveland story and the Queen's Speech. This should have been posted hours ago, it surely doesn't take that long to realise the opposing arguments are totally baseless, if not totally ridiculous. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 17:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • There was another demonstrably stupid comment above along the lines of, this isn't news because he's just retiring at an 'appropriate age'. What rubbish. The retirement age in the UK can be as low as 50 depending on your job, and given a stressfull job like being a top-flight football manager (heart attacks are not uncommon), it arguably should be nearer that level. In Ferguson's case, plenty of people were surprised he never retired earlier (and he tried to years ago, before being sent back by his wife for getting under her feet!), but similarly there are plenty who thought it was a surprise he went at 72 as they thought he'd be going for years. There were also the inevitable mentions of Jock Stein, who died on the touchline even though he was 10 years younger than Ferguson is now. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 18:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support. But I think his last match will be a more momentous event, which I'd strongly support posting instead. Formerip (talk) 16:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support - 26 years, 183 days (as of today) in charge of the biggest football club brand in the world, 38 trophies, including 13 league titles, and two UEFA Champions League titles. Won the Scottish Cup several times, and the UEFA Cup Winners' Cup, and Super Cup, and the Scottish Premier Division multiple times with Aberdeen. A genuine legend whose retirement is being reported globally, even to the point of causing a run on Manchester United's share price (before recovering a bit). We don't want to necessarily set a precedent, but if anyone out there can demonstrate a manager of a club who has had so much success and managed one club for such a long time, I'd be interested to hear it. Ferguson is a one-off. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:18, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• I could make similar arguments about Mariano Rivera, who has announced this will be his last season. Would you be open to that? Brett Favre has a similar resume, and it was shot down when nominated. Those two are just as "one-off" as this Ferguson fellow. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:29, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• You'll have to find some NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB manager, because the numbers will never compare between a manager and a player. As (Medeis?) pointed out, his highly paid players actually won the tournaments. No quarterback will ever be playing at age 71. --IP98 (talk) 17:44, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Well if you knew what you were talking about, I'm sure you'd understand that the highest paid US players earn way more than footballers in the UK. And you'd also know that Man Utd players, while they earn a lot of money, aren't the highest earners in the game. This nomination relates to a manager with a huge level of success as a manager, managing a couple of clubs over 30 years to dozens and dozens of trophies, not a "quarterback". As for "highly paid players", see 2008 United States men's Olympic basketball team. Nothing is guaranteed. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• The only coach that is like Fergie in North American sports has to be the quite-not-so-recently retired Phil Jackson, who has won 9 11 NBA (league record) titles as a coach. However, unlike Fergie, Phil coached multiple teams. Probably a long time ago some MLB or NHL coach had more titles. –HTD 17:54, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Well Fergie managed Aberdeen to Scottish and European trophies before moving to Man Utd, so he did coach multiple teams. Also, "He has won 49 trophies as a manager, making him the most successful British football manager in history." (he won trophy with St Mirren as well....!) The Rambling Man (talk) 17:59, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, but the only trophies that matter is the UEFA Champions League. Amongst those 48 titles are 5 league cups and 10 community shields, 2 each of the UEFA Super Cup and Club Winners Cup, 1 each of the Club World Cup, Intercontinental Cup. The league isn't the top level of competition available to Fergie. He's the tied for 2nd though in most number of UEFA Champions League titles...–HTD 18:11, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• " but the only trophies that matter is the UEFA Champions League" rubbish. But you're entitled to your "opinion"! 26 years in charge of the biggest football club in the world, 38 trophies, including winning the highest league in the country (i.e. the "Superbowl") 13 times, anyone else in the US done that? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• This was merely to a response to your question on a comparison of "how many actual titles has X won?" since North American players and coaches aren't expected to win more than 1 trophy per season, as compared to European soccer players and coaches. As for winning the league in the country, it is not exactly comparable as the "Big 4" (hahaha) has a playoff at the end of the regular season, that more than likely screws up the team with the best overall regular season record. We would have not known if Fergie would've excelled in such a competition considering he has won the UEFA CL only twice, which is a multistage tournament. –HTD 19:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• So how many US coaches have won titles multiple times with one team inside and outside of the US over a period of 26 years? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• As what I've said, any comparison would've been invalid. –HTD 19:48, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• The nearest I could think of is Mike Krzyzewski: 13 ACC titles (akin to the Premier League where the winner qualifies to a bigger tourney), 2 Olympic gold medals and a world basketball championship. –HTD 19:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• You would attempt to equate the ACC with the English Premier League? That's stretching it.... by a few miles! But fine, I'd see no problem with his nom as he retired. I'd need to look more into it, but hey. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Solely on the mechanics of qualifying into another competition, as I can't think of any other U.S. competition that allows a team to participate in two separate leagues in one season... save for MLS. –HTD 19:58, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• I'm guessing ACC means Atlantic Coast Conference? That cannot be compared to the Premier League in any competitive sense, can it? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, and no. My comparison is solely on the mechanics of qualification and nothing else. You did say "how many US coaches", unqualified. As for a European coach, it seems that David Jeffrey is fast approaching Fergie's records, and he's only 50 years young! –HTD 20:11, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Certainly he's doing well, but in a minor league and has no European trophies, a little like a US coach I suppose, big in his home town, but nothing much outside it. So, in conclusion, there are no sports coaches in the US that approach what Fergie has achieved with one club in 26 years? I didn't think so. That's why he's being nominated here. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Ah yes the "minor league". This is like the argument I was making elsewhere on Major League Baseball and its badly named World Series. –HTD 20:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yes. Minor league. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Well I'm open to any nomination, so sure thing. Out of interest, how many actual titles has Rivera won? You are aware that Ferguson has won these titles (38 of them at Man Utd alone) as a manager? How many Superbowls did Favre win? I'm not really interested in MVPs or other various awards (of which there are many in US sports it seems!), I'm interested in winning titles, winning trophies, demonstrating that the individual is the most excellent in their field in an objective way, not a subjective voting way. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Football aka soccer has to have more trophies than US individual awards for athletes. With that said, Sir Alex has won the UEFA Champions League twice, which should be the highest form of competition available to him, save for his one FIFA Club World Cup, and another title for an Intercontinental Cup, both of which while technically are higher competitions than the UEFA CL, is looked upon as a glorified super cup of sorts. As for Mariano Rivera, he has won 5 World Series titles; Major League Baseball has to be the highest form of competition any baseball player would've gotten. –HTD 17:45, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) I'm leaving Favre aside, because he's a Hall of Famer, but no more special than any of the other NFL Hall of Fame QBs one could compare him to. Mariano Rivera is a one of a kind. I don't know how exactly to compare that to these "trophies" you speak of. His article, an FA, can describe him better than I ever could. He's a five-time World Series champion, if that helps. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Brett Favre won one Super Bowl. Not nearly a comparison. Mariano Rivera is slightly more interesting, being a Panamanian playing in the US (thus a more international figure than Favre), and he won the World Series 5 times all with the same club. But I don't really think you can compare the contributions of a relief pitcher to a manager towards the success of his/her team. An American analogue here would be a coaching figure with a boatload of titles and a worldwide reputation. The closest in recent times I can imagine is Phil Jackson, and he didn't spend nearly 26 years with a single club. The other possible comparisons would be college coaching legends like Mike Krzyzewski or Bob Knight. Krzyzewski is still active after 30+ years at the same team and is widely considered the best in his business, but surely if he retired his nomination would be shot down for the same reason NCAA sports nearly always are (though the ITN discussion would also have to account for Krzyzewski's 2 Olympic Gold Medals--that discussion whenever it happens could get messy)--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:53, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Coach K "only" won 4 NCAA titles as a coach, but the NCAA tourney is arguably tougher to win (64 teams in a single-elimination tournament) vs. Sir Alex's competitions which are more drawn out and aren't dependent on luck. The reason why Sir Alex won boatloads of silverware is due to the fact that football gives out boatloads of silverware. An English team can win up to 6 trophies (Shield, League Cup, FA Cup, League, European competition, Club World Cup) on one year, vs. American coaches where there is only one "trophy" that truly matters. You won't see news reports boasting of Phil Jackson's 13 conference championships, which do actually gives out trophies.
• Someone else can argue on Coach K's successes with the US national team though. Two Olympic gold medals and 1 world title. –HTD 18:05, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• I completely agree we should filter out all the secondary trophies like super cups or even the FA Cup from this discussion--the notable titles are the 13 EPL championships and the 2 UEFA CL championships. His titles in Scotland are a bit of icing. I'd say as a manager/coach Phil Jackson might be on par with Ferguson in terms of quantity of titles. But he didn't spend nearly so much time with a single club.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:09, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• On a sorta similar discussion above, I argued the only titles worth accounting for are his 2 European Cups. That's good enough for second-best (best has 3). Same case with Krzyzewski on the NCAAs: the UEFA CL and NCAA tourney have a bit of luck involved in them (lesser games and/or a "knockout stage"/"playoffs" = luck). –HTD 18:16, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Well in terms of which trophies 'matter', I don't think the EPL is analogous to an NBA conference trophy. A European soccer team has to simultaneously compete for a domestic league title and a European title (if they're in a competition obviously). If you win the UEFA champions league you don't automatically win the EPL en route.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:35, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• That's true, but that brings the argument that a European soccer team, by qualifying in numerous competitions, can win numerous trophies in a season, more so if it's a team as good as Manchester United. That's why Fergie has a lot. The comparison to Rivera and Favre, and even Jackson is quite hard as these three join only one competition in one season, and only one trophy is valuable. That's why Rivera "only" won 5 WS in 18 years of play (0.27/year), and Jackson "only" won 11 NBA titles in 20 years (0.55/year), vs. Fergie's 48 titles in 39 (Fergie started when he was 33; by comparison, Kobe Bryant is now 34) years (1.23/year). –HTD 18:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Your multiple trophy argument is nonense - since 1889 the English double has only been achieved 11 times. And by pointing this out, all you're actually doing is reminding everyone that Ferguson was the first and still the only manager to win the English treble, which is one of the many reasons why his retirement is getting such a big reaction. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 19:07, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• The argument is merely to highlight that the UEFA Champions League is the highest level a coach of a European-based team can coach at, as compared to the names being tossed around here. –HTD 19:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Which is a non-argument. You have failed to suggest a single sports coach that has achieved what Fergie has achieved, both in England and in Europe. The significance of Fergie's achievements is why we're talking about it here, and why news around the globe are talking about his retirement. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• When Rivera announced he was retiring, what actually happened? Sure it was news, undoubtedly, but so what? Was the impact of the news demonstrably the same as Ferguson? Did it bump stories like Cleveland or the State of the Union from top billing in the US or even in New York? Was Obama moved to comment on it? If the answer to both is no, as I think it is, I can't see why anyone is even bothering to entertain the comparison as if it means anything, let alone trying to do so by comparing achievements in completely different sports. Add to that the fact that by definition in a team sport no player will ever be as responsible for record breaking dominance of a league than the team's manager, then I can't see how you have any cause at all to be comparing Rivera to Ferguson in this manner. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 18:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support was expecting this to be posed by now, I know that retirements are not normally posed and with good reason, however setting the bar at 26 years in charge of a top professional sports team, 13 domestic titles, two continental titles, and five domestic cups is not unreasonable, and it is unquestionable in the news. LGA _talk 18:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment also worth noting his retirement has been commented on by David Cameron, Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini, amongst many others. This is hardly "English news". The Rambling Man (talk) 19:13, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment Analysing carefully all the votes with comments we have about this nomination, it seems like there is an inclination towards posting. Leaving the vote count (17 supports against 13 opposes) aside as no decisive criterion, there are many opposes supported with the facts that 'everybody will retire one day' or 'we don't have a precedent to post retirements', which simply cannot match against with the numerous arguments adduced to support this nomination. However, it's not my job to decide whether this one should be posted or not, especially since my vote is far on the side of supports. It'd be interesting to see the ultimate decision on this one given the precedent with Jason Collins.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

WE DON'T VOTE HERE! HiLo48 (talk) 21:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Jesus fucking christ. Which part of "Leaving the vote count ... aside as no decisive criterion" was impenetrable to you? There can't be a single person here apart from you who read that post and interpreted it as an appeal to look at the vote count. Quite the contrary, it pointed out that the arguments made by opposers (like you) do not stand up against the support arguments. The fact you both missed that and chose to make it IN CAPITALS AND BOLD TEXT is utterly contemptible. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 21:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support – ordinarily, I would have opposed an ITN on the retirement of a player, manager, etc. But Fergie's no ordinary manager; a record that never has been and never will be matched. Comparable to Connie Mack, who would've undoubtedly been posted at ITN had he been managing now. —Bloom6132 (talk) 19:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment when this goes up it will be the most staggering example of Eurocentrism and football elitism I've ever seen at ITN. We had to fight tooth and nail to get an RD posting for Jerry Buss who was credited with revitalizing the NBA, and here we're talking about full blurb for the simple retirement of a prolific EPL manager. Misplaced Pages is not football ticker, but we post every continental national championship, the European association championship, the EPL winner, Lionel Messi setting a record, Messi winning an award, and now the retirement of some manager. Like it or not, association football is just not that important. I guess I just don't understand. --IP98 (talk) 20:01, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Sorry, "revitalising" a league is a matter of opinion. Winning 38 trophies with a single club in 26 years is not a matter of opinion. You're obviously very upset about these nominations, I think we can all take that as read, so thanks for your continuing opposition. We'll now continue discussing the significance of an internationally successful manager who operates in a sport with a global audience of over a billion people whose club is known across the world who happens to be more successful than any sports coach in history (unless you can prove otherwise). Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Sorry IP98, but we, who live in Europe, don't know your heroes with local importance such as Jerry Buss and cannot agree with you on their influence brought in the sports popular in North America. Fortunately, this discussion perfectly demonstrates that there are people from the United States and Canada who have heard about Sir Alex Ferguson and admire the achievements during his career. Labeling something as "Eurocentrism" is a very hard term, at least in contrast to the "US-centrism" that we have on this Misplaced Pages.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Eurocentrism? Hardly. It's probably just a reflection of the fact European-derived sports aren't dominated by the franchise model or collective player contracts, hence who owns the teams or administrates the sport is largely seen as irrelevant to who plays or manages in it. You will only really become notable if you're corrupt or incompetent, as Sepp Blatter could tell you. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 20:28, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment Also worth noting that Football Focus is broadcasting a special programme on BBC One about Ferguson. That's a programme normally shown on Saturday lunchtime putting on a prime-time evening special, just for this. They're not even waiting for the end of the season, when he actually stops being the manager, even though that's only a week or so away. If this sort of thing happened when Rivera announced his retirement, I'll eat my hat. I don't recall this ever happening ever, bearing in mind he hasn't actually died, just announced his retirement. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 20:12, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose As a UK based football fan, if I saw a nomination like this for a coach in US sport, I would be unable to support, and would quite probably oppose, on the grounds of no impact and local interest. I could not take that stance without opposing this equally, and on the same grounds. Kevin McE (talk) 20:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Totally respect that, but are you aware of any coaches in the US that have led the same fully professional team for 26 years with such success? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • In other words, you're not interested in the abundant specific evidence that this event has had an impact in the media and is of demonstrably national interest. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 20:28, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: I might be inclined to post, but the article is in no condition for that. There are many unreferenced paragraphs, s, and similar problems. Additionally, the update consists of a singe sentence (repeated in the lead and the body) stating that he is retiring. Given that there is only a weak consensus to post, the update is going to have to be stellar for me to post. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Well obviously we can update it, but it's not up to you to declare that we need a "stellar" update. We just need one that is agreeable to the community. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Updated in nine minutes to meet the "requirements". I'm not sure anything I've ever written here is "stellar", but there's no excuse for not posting this now it meets the "requirements". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:48, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    • It is up to me if I'm going to post it though, which is all I commented on. As far as I'm concerned, the article is not even remotely close to being ready. There are 5 orange tags, a handful of citation needs, and more than 20 completely unreference paragraphs. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:53, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Ok, most of the scare templates have been removed. There's one remaining, and sure, the article isn't perfect, but it has 137 references. If you're going to refuse to post an article with 137 refs, claiming "the article is not even remotely close to being ready" then god help ITN. Perhaps you only expect FA's to be visible at ITN. Certainly you've provided an insight to the community in your approach here, we'll all have to take that into account in future. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
        • No idea what the fuck you are trying to accomplish with your veiled threat, but if expecting an article to be meet WP:V makes me a bad person, then I guess I'm a bad person. There might be "137 references", but that doesn't mean there isn't a huge amount of unreferenced material. I am not obligated to do anything - I could have said nothing at all and let the nomination die, or I could have opposed. Instead I offered a clear to path to it getting posted. Most blurbs with this level of support (by the numbers) never get posted. When an article has low support %age wise, I have higher expectations (not that rejecting an article that is roughly 1/3rd unreferenced is a high level IMO - merely meeting V is not even remotely FA standards). If you don't like that, you are free to continue to argue the point and hope another admin sees things differently than I do. You are not, however, free to demand that I post the article. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:25, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • "Weak" consensus? Seriously? Can you point to a single argument made by opposers that is in any way compelling? Are you simply taking the word of people like Kevin, who claims to be a UK based football fan, yet doesn't seem able to give a single fact based point about how this resignation should be seen as "no impact and local interest", even though the page is already littered with concrete evidence showing the exact opposite. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 20:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes, seriously. You can't just write off every opinion you don't like as being uncompelling. Of course it is uncompelling to you or you would change sides. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:25, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Are you fucking kidding me? So anyone can come in here and talk absolute bollocks, and to you, their opinion is just as valid as anyone else's? You can't be that incompetent, surely. Either you can point to an example of a compelling oppose argument, or you cannot. It's that simple. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 21:33, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Many comments made by the opposers have simply been ignored. HiLo48 (talk) 21:19, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Feel free to be specific. Which of the amazing arguments made to oppose this have supposedly been ignored, in your opinion? Surely you don't mean your own brilliant opening ontribution? "his retirement is surely no surprise, and one of the least notable aspects of his career" - if you look above, I've explained at length how that was complete and utter nonsense. Maybe you meant the bit about how a monkey could do what Ferguson did given the mone he had to spend? Granted I ignored that, but only because it is one of the most idiotic things I've ever read. Only someone who knows absolutely nothing about Ferguson, or indeed English football in general, could even begin to say something so stupid. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 21:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
        • Ignoring the vitriol (we have an article called Football hooliganism, and perhaps your behaviour here demonstrates why), I've said all along that Ferguson's career is obviously highly notable, and rightly celebrated in his article, but this nomination is about his retirement. That's not notable. Nobody has told me why it is. Many have told me that it's important because his career has been notable, but this is now circular. HiLo48 (talk) 23:07, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
          • • "Nobody has told me why it is" - why do you think it's remotely acceptable to lie like this? Right here on this very page there are several detailed explanations of exactly what has happened today that would show a moron like you that his retirement was considered notable, on the assumption that you really were so lazy or incompetent that you couldn't have found it for yourself. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 23:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

              Think maybe the two of you could tone it down a notch? This issue isn't really that important in the grand scheme of things - we are allowed to disagree with one another other, but disagreement is certainly no excuse for personal attacks. --Bongwarrior (talk) 23:44, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

          • It's notable because it puts an end to a 26+ year managing spell at Manchester United. Aside from all the notable achievements he'd made during his tenure (which, you're correct, aren't directly connected to his retirement), he's been managing his club for longer than any professional team manager at a top flight club in any of the major leagues in Europe or at any of the North American Leagues. I simply cannot name the last manager who left a club after over 26 years--this makes Ferguson's retirement singularly notable--no manager anytime in the near or mid-range future will possibly be able to duplicate such a long and high profile success. In football the closest example would be Arsène Wenger who is still 10 years short of Ferguson's mark and hasn't had even a quarter of his success. The longest serving US manager in any professional sport was Jerry Sloan of the Utah Jazz in the NBA who managed the club for about 25 years without a title.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
            • Nope. You just told me again that his career has been notable, not his retirement (which is what this nomination is for) at an age when most people have already retired. It's almost the least amazing thing about him. HiLo48 (talk) 23:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
              • You seriously cannot be this ignorant. Had you read even a single news story about this, you would have come across a sentence or paragraph that detailed just how 'amazing' it was that he stayed on in the job to that age, given that it's so rare. Since nobody can be this thick and still be able to type, I think you're simply being deliberately obtuse and are trying to draw a distinction you know just doesn't exist, as a replacement for not having a single good reason why this event should be ignored by ITN. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 23:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
          • (ec x3)I gave an exceptional career as one of two requirements as it would be meaningless to post the retirement of an unsuccessful manager. I also said that the retiree should still be active at a very high level, i.e. even a Ferguson wouldn't be posted (or rather I would oppose posting) if he retired after e.g. managing in League Two for a couple of years. Unstated, but of course an underlying premise, is that the retirement actually makes the news in a significant way. You have gotten answers, and you are welcome to disagree with them. Your opinion and comments has not been ignored.
            Re your edit summary: It’s not a requirement that the ITN item is the most amazing thing about an individual. The end of a career is a significant part of the career. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 23:34, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support – Isn't this like the football's equivalent to the final home run of Babe Ruth, like him, Fergie is as significant to his field as much as those listed are to theirs and I don't consider myself as a football fan. But then whilst remarkable, we gave a listing to the first outing of a active but barely ordinary NBA basketball player, which I wouldn't had gave weight on it unless he was the on the same level as Kobe Bryant nor LeBron James, in terms of ability and fame. Donnie Park (talk) 21:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I say weak support because we never gave an ITN to Phil Jackson either. Donnie Park (talk) 21:24, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• References left here as the article is semiprotected. They fit where the orange tags are. Stam controversy, Barthez, van Nistelrooy, Veron "visit". 85.167.111.116 (talk) 21:29, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks IP, I'm working on it. I need somethign that verifies the fact that the 'press largely saw the 1999–2000 and 2000–01 campaigns as failures as United had failed to win the European Cup'.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Seems tabloid, should perhaps be removed. Added more transfer sources to the talk to avoid ec. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 21:52, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Support. He's not notable. or significant outside his local club? BBC News --"Manchester United shares fell in New York amid concerns over the impact Sir Alex Ferguson's retirement will have. The news was announced while US markets were closed. When trading began the club's shares fell as much as 4.5%. " Moriori (talk) 21:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Can't stand the bloke, but this is clearly notable and front page news (on news sites, not just sport sites) all over the globe, so it isn't parochial. Black Kite (talk) 21:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• References added. I have added several references and removed the section tags. The update is ready IMO. I suggest the article be marked 'ready'.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: in relation to Jason Collins, a sportsman coming out as gay isn't really as big of a deal. Hell, we had our first major gay sportsman come out twenty years ago. We didn't even post about Gareth Thomas coming out. Eurocentricism, my ass. Sceptre 22:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment This is just to note that almost an entire day has passed since this retirement was officially announced (and which itself was prefaced by 12 hours of overnight media coverage just on the off-chance a rumour might be true), a day which has seen it get top billing in the news all day and an impromptu evening TV special, and yet still it isn't on the front page here, even though no-one with the power to do so is willing to give a good reason why. The reality is here for everyone to see - the support case has been made on multiple fronts and in specific detail, while the opposers have just talked absolute nonsense. It's no word of a lie to say every oppose argument has either been total irrelevant bollocks ('we didn't post a horse'/'it's just an old man retiring'), or a weak throwaway point disproveable immediately using evidence on this page (it's 'not significant'/he's 'not leaving' the club/this is the 'same as Rivera'), or just stuff that enters the territory of complete and utter lies disprovable by the simple truth ('winning 13 championships is hardly special'/'no impact and local interest'). It's really a disgrace that anyone gets away with calling this even a borderline case or that the overseers of the process can even contemplate 'letting it die' rather than justify their claims that there are opposes here with merits. Opiners here should not be able to prevent a posting just because they're too ignorant, obtuse, or lazy to argue their case, or worse, that that their mothers didn't tell them it's not right to lie your fucking ass off just to get your own way on the interwebs. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 22:54, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

  ITN is almost always slow. And the article did have problems that needed addressing. That takes time.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

  Fixing the article took, what, an hour? Two? Given it was nominated almost immediately it seems, it could have been up by 11am, if the rest of the process wasn't so retarded. And yet it isn't. It apparently gives equal weight to every moron and liar in the place. And even after a whole day of that sort of shite, the flat refusal of ThaddeusB to point to a single oppose he finds compelling enough to stop this being posted is nothing short of a total disgrace. He is an utter disgrace. It's no wonder he dissappeared. It's much easier to defend the indefensible that way. Gruesome Foursome (talk) 23:25, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

  Your recent comments are clearly not constructive. Just because you think you're right doesn't mean you have a carte blanche to be rude. 85.167.111.116 (talk) 23:42, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

May 7

Portal:Current events/2013 May 7

May 7, 2013 (2013-05-07) (Tuesday) edit history watch Armed conflicts and attacks Syrian civil war: Four Filipino UN peacekeepers are kidnapped by armed men while patrolling the demilitarized area between Syria and the Israeli-annexed Golan Heights. (Al Jazeera), (BBC) Nigerian Sharia conflict: An attack in Nigeria, suspected to be perpetrated by Islamic sect Boko Haram, kills 55 people. (The Independent) Art and culture American special effects innovator Ray Harryhausen dies at the age of 92. (Chicago Sun-Times) American As I Lay Dying frontman and lead vocalist Tim Lambesis is arrested on charges of attempting to hire a hitman. (MTV) Business and economy 2013 Korean crisis: The Bank of China halts business with a North Korean bank accused by the United States of financing Pyongyang's missile and nuclear programs. (AP) Microsoft acknowledges and plans to address complaints with its Windows 8 operating system – changes will be available later this year. (AP) The Reserve Bank of Australia cuts its benchmark interest rate to 2.75%, down from 3.00%. (BBC) The Dow Jones Industrial Average closes above the 15,000 mark for the first time, setting a record. The S&P 500, up 0.5%, sets a record high as well. (USA Today) China's April import and export figures beat expectations, potentially easing concerns that its economy is lagging. (Reuters) Disasters and accidents Mayon Volcano erupts in the Philippines killing four mountain climbers and requiring four other climbers trapped near the summit to be rescued. (AP via New Zealand Stuff) A gas tanker explodes in Ecatepec de Morelos, Mexico, killing at least 20 and injuring 36. (BBC), (Reuters) A Nigerian warplane involved in operations within Mali crashes in Niger, killing two pilots. (BBC) Bears attack villages in Orissa, India, killing eight people and injuring a dozen more. The bears are said to have become aggressive due to excessive consumption of the mahua flower. (BBC) The Italian cargo ship Jolly Nero crashes into the port of Genoa, destroying the traffic control tower. Seven people die, four are injured and at least two are missing. (News.com.au) Health and environment India has the highest first day infant mortality rate in the world, according to a new study. (Times of India) Alzheimer's drug Gammagard fails to produce results in a large-scale clinical trial. (USA Today) A new strain of gonorrhea, HO41, is reported to be incurable and extremely virulent. (Times of India) International relations India agrees to demolish some bunkers near the Chinese border in order to end a three-week-long standoff in the Himalayas. (Reuters) Law and crime A Pentagon study finds a sharp rise in sexual assaults among U.S. military personnel. (The New York Times) Paperwork filled on behalf of Aurora shooting suspect James Holmes states that he plans to plead not guilty by reason of insanity. (The New York Times) Politics and elections Thousands of striking bus workers march through South Africa's biggest city, Johannesburg. (News 24) Ireland's parliament, the Oireachtas, passes legislation pardoning thousands of soldiers who left the Irish Army to fight with the Allies during World War II. (BBC) Governor Jack Markell signs a bill making Delaware the 11th U.S. state to legalize same-sex marriage. (Delaware Online) Former Governor of South Carolina Mark Sanford wins a special election for South Carolina's 1st congressional district defeating Elizabeth Colbert Busch. (MSNBC) The United Kingdom's Queen Elizabeth II announces she will miss a Commonwealth meeting for the first time in 40 years. Prince Charles will attend on her behalf. (Los Angeles Times) Science and technology A new study by the University of California, Davis suggests that all Europeans are related to small group of ancestors dating back only 1,000 years. (Nature World News) Researchers discover statistical evidence for the proposed Eurasiatic language superfamily, dating back 15,000 years. (Los Angeles Times) In a study published in Nature Communications, scientists unearth in Alberta, Canada and identify what may be the earliest known pachycephalosaur (bone-headed dinosaur), Acrotholus audeti. (Latinos Post) Sports In North American baseball, Toronto Blue Jays' pitcher J. A. Happ is carted off the field after getting hit in the head by a line drive. (ABC News) In tennis, unseeded Bulgarian Grigor Dimitrov pulls off a major upset over world number one Novak Djokovic at the Madrid Open. (Reuters) Delaware becomes 11th US state to legalize same-sex marriage Consensus not to post. --Tone 11:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Article: Same-sex marriage in Delaware (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ Delaware becomes the 11th US state to legalize same-sex marriage (Post) News source(s): USA Today Credits: Nominated by Kaldari (talk · give credit) Updated by LittleRoughRhinestone (talk · give credit) Article updated Kaldari (talk) 01:14, 8 May 2013 (UTC) If we didn't post France or New Zealand, I'm not sure how we can post the second-smallest U.S. state with a straight face. --Bongwarrior (talk) 01:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC) We didn't post France legalizing gay marriage? Geez. Kaldari (talk) 01:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Nope, apparently we decided one basketballer was a better story. GRAPPLE X 01:31, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Wait a minute. France hasn't legalized gay marriage yet, or wait, maybe they have. Honestly, I can't tell from reading Same-sex marriage in France. Kaldari (talk) 01:35, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Uruguay and New Zealand may be posted on MP in August, when marriages become legal, France is not official yet. A good argument would be that we didn't post Maryland or Washington as they are states not countries, or there is nothing "relevant", like in Mexico City. Tbhotch. Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 01:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose no possible way this should be posted after France was not. Being the 11th country was a weak enough argument, the 11th US state is not significant at all .--ThaddeusB (talk) 01:45, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. While this should be judged on its own merits, the 11th State of the US to do this isn't notable. It might be when we get to the 50th State or have a SCOTUS decision legalizing it for the whole nation, but there is little to be gained from mentioning each state after the first one. It also appears that Minnesota will legalize it very soon as well. 331dot (talk) 01:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose How do we start a new list, ITN/D? Oppose. I think we need to stop bringing up France in these conversations as there's a widespread opinion that was a mistake--it shouldn't be a benchmark for the future. But a small US state, not nearly the first, is a much lower bar.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:29, 8 May 2013 (UTC) The widespreadness you mention disincludes me. μηδείς (talk) 02:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose, sadly. Having not posted France & New Zealand, we would be rightly accused of US centricity if we were to post this one. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:44, 8 May 2013 (UTC) AFAIK, ITN has never posted U.S. states legalizing same sex marriage. Prop. 8 was hotly discussed but was never posted. –HTD 06:05, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose per not posting France/NZ. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:14, 8 May 2013 (UTC) What we did or did not do with anything else is not relevant; this should be judged on its merits. 331dot (talk) 09:42, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - It's hard to imagine when I would support the posting of a law passed by a sub-national entity. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:53, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. Small US state. We didn't post France and New Zealand. A much larger US state Minnesota will probably legalize same-sex marriage next week.--В и к и T 10:03, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose small state that votes democrat. No surprise. Maybe TX would be ITN. Definitely if the supreme court overruled the states right and enforced it nation wide it would be news. One other thing: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa we didn't post France or New Zealand, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Honestly, like it's been said many times before, that ship has sailed. Get over it. --IP98 (talk) 10:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 'Overrules states right'? Seriously, are you grinding that axe hard enough? AlexTiefling (talk) 10:48, 8 May 2013 (UTC) LOL, it's not what you think. I just mean that in the US, if the supreme court (unelected), overturned something that's traditionally been a state issue, especially something this contentious, then it would be a bigger story. Unlike France, in the US it will need to be done one state at a time, unless the supreme court steps in. Even the federal legislature can't do it. --IP98 (talk) 10:59, 8 May 2013 (UTC) In that case, we're saying the same thing, I think: the weirdness of US federalism (even compared to close copies like Germany) is what ensures the slow drip, drip of scarcely notable stories like this one. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:17, 8 May 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Mexican explosion Article: 2013 Ecatepec de Morelos gas tanker explosion (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ At least 20 people are killed when a tank truck crashes and explodes in Ecatepec de Morelos, Mexico. (Post) News source(s): BBC Credits: Updated and nominated by ThaddeusB (talk · give credit) Updated by Tbhotch (talk · give credit) Article updatedNominator's comments: It's not often that 22 people are killed, 31 injured, and 45 homes damaged by a traffic accident. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:12, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Support, but it should be "between 20 to 23" or "more than 20", also, it may be noted why it exploded (after a crash). Some sources in the country are citing 20 (last time I listened to the news one hour ago) and 23 (according to Caminos y Puentes Federales). Tbhotch. Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 01:29, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Blurb adjusted per your suggestion - "20" is fine for now until facts become more clear. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:02, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose Unless it turns out that this is part of a notorious 10-year old sexual kidnapping subject of years of national television coverage, no. μηδείς (talk) 02:30, 8 May 2013 (UTC) So a rape of a 10 years-old girl is more "notorious" than the death of at least 10 kids? That's bizarre. Tbhotch. Grammatically incorrect? Correct it! See terms and conditions. 03:35, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Er, the Ohio story is about three women who were missing for 10 years, rather than anyone being 10 years old. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Support Major explosion of this sort with significant casualities is a big deal. Also note that the story receives wide media attention.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 02:43, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Support High death toll, lots of damage and injuries, plenty of media coverage. Neljack (talk) 02:45, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Media attention and coverage? Like sittinvg on top of the BBC, as the Ohio kidnappings have? μηδείς (talk) 02:56, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Ya win some, ya lose some. Take care, my fellow ITN editor, not to be in vio of WP:POINT, and I say this with respect, as you are a long-time contributor here. Jusdafax 05:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Support - Serious incident of highway carnage. Jusdafax 05:46, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Support terrible accident, serious amounts of damage done. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Support. Article is in good condition, death toll is good for the Main page. ComputerJA (talk) 07:25, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Weak support - Not an outstanding story, but still a disaster of some prominence. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:55, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Support TheOriginalSoni (talk) 09:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose oh, God, another car accident? Really? Are we doing to do this every time some third world transportation accident kills a dozen people? I'm obviously in the minority side here, but this is ridiculous. The Chinese tanker accident went up. The one in Africa went up. It's not f'in news, the TV is bored so it's talking about this because there is fire and death. That's it. It will have absolutely no lasting impact on the people of Mexico, on transportation safety, or on anything at all. Totally and utterly irrelevant. --IP98 (talk) 10:44, 8 May 2013 (UTC) You're also in the minority in pouring so much emotional vigour into your ITN votes. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:49, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Posting. --Tone 11:32, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio Consensus not to post. --Tone 11:29, 8 May 2013 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Article: 2013 Cleveland, Ohio, missing trio (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ Three women missing for a decade rescued in Cleveland, Ohio. (Post) News source(s): Cleveland Plain Dealer Credits: Nominated by nbpolitico (talk · give credit) Updated by Martin451 (talk · give credit), Kennvido (talk · give credit) and Legacypac (talk · give credit) Article updated Nbpolitico (talk) 19:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support well updated, currently top news at the BBC, Wash Po, Fox, USA section of France 24, will be huge reader interest. μηδείς (talk) 19:41, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support - what is ITN for? This has gained a very high amount of media attention. Interesting and disturbing stuff too. 92.40.254.167 (talk) 19:44, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support. Clearly this is one of the major news stories of the month and likely longer than that. The article is in good shape for the circumstances. Thryduulf (talk) 19:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - Yes it is in the news. It is also local crime, being trumped up as important because of the sensationalistic aspects. Let's not go to the tabloid level, editors. This is not ITN material, in my view. Jusdafax 20:01, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Comment. The article is up for deletion review and there is obviously some controversy about it. Whatever the rights and wrongs, I don't think we should post while that is ongoing. Formerip (talk) 20:02, 7 May 2013 (UTC) The article was nominated for deletion, which was speedily closed. This was brought up for a review which also looks like it will be speedily closed. It should not be a barrier to posting, assuming there is support for notability, like in the BBC, France 24, etc.... μηδείς (talk) 20:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC) If it gets sorted out quickly and there is consensus here, then fine. All I'm saying is we shouldn't link it from the front page while it has a red tag. Formerip (talk) 20:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Slight Oppose. There was a bit of a discussion after the Jaycee Lee Dugard case and the Fritzl case. While I think it would have been in better taste to post those two, I'm swayed by the fact that they were shot down twice. I don't see what really makes this different; it's not getting more news coverage, the kidnapping lasted for a significantly shorter period of time, and as Jusdafax noted, the sensationalistic aspects are what propulsed this to the front page. EricLeb (Page | Talk) 20:16, 7 May 2013 (UTC) The Fritzl case should have been posted--big miss IMHO. Though I think ITN standards were different then. However, I'll oppose this--less drama frankly.--Johnsemlak (talk) 03:08, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose, crime story, local, Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid. Abductive (reasoning) 20:34, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Those articles only prove the case. The Jaycee Lee Dugard article is well written with 97 sources. This story is top of the news, well documented, of high reader interest, and not going away. μηδείς (talk) 20:34, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - bizarre story, but ultimately a story of limited importance that will likely disappear quickly. If story stays top of the news for several days, I will reconsider. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose Misplaced Pages ITN is not a tabloid. Yes, like celebrity news this gets lots of readers, but in the big context it is more random than important. Thue (talk) 21:03, 7 May 2013 (UTC) If you want some real world news, then I suggest . But given ITN's tendency for tabloid over substance, I think it is too subtle to have any chance, so I don't bother nominating. Thue (talk) 21:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose It's a difficult nom to evaluate. There's a lot of public interest because of the remarkable length of time they were held and the fact that they have turned out be alive when everyone assumed they were dead, but I don't think it really has much wider significance. Neljack (talk) 21:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Comment - Part of me wonders why this is getting the coverage that it is, given that it pales in significance to other postings that generally make it to ITN.--WaltCip (talk) 21:18, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Possibly it is just salacious Missing white woman syndrome but I agree it seems to be "pushed" more than usual. Jusdafax 21:52, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Usual compared to what? A 10 year long illegal captivity has some precedence? I'm not supporting this for the front page, but you can't just yawn at it. --IP98 (talk) 22:19, 7 May 2013 (UTC) NM, cited above. Those cases also generated extensive coverage. --IP98 (talk) 22:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support The vast majority of stories are local to somewhere so arguing that the story is local ring hollow. International coverage over the many years (America's Most Wanted 5+ times, The Montel Williams Show and The Oprah Winfrey Show for starts), now top of the news internationally. If this story is not ITN exactly what qualifies? Legacypac (talk) 22:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC) In regard to the 'Missing white woman syndrome' aspect, it's noteworthy that the victim who disappeared as an adult was treated very differently to the two teenagers at the time, and the cases were not connected. The adult was just assumed to have run away of her own accord. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. The 'article' is a crock of shite as it is, full of WP:BLP violations, speculation, and irrelevances. The last thing we want to do is attract more attention to it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:21, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Thank you. I couldn't agree more. Abductive (reasoning) 00:34, 8 May 2013 (UTC) What an inappropriate absurd attack on the efforts of the many editors that have crafted this article without even an edit war. If someone hates the article so much they can go edit something no one is looking to read today. Shameful. Legacypac (talk) 04:45, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Please. I looked at the article in its earlier stage (about here), and it was bad. Mentioning BLP violations should never be disparaged. Telling people to edit elsewhere is not constructive; User:AndyTheGrump should be encouraged to criticize poorly written material and bad ITN nominations. And the fact remains that the subject matter is of the most prurient sort. Abductive (reasoning) 05:07, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose per Neljack. 331dot (talk) 01:59, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Comment: Misplaced Pages is not a news site and Wikipedians are not news editors, yet we chose to have an "In The News" section on the main page. It would seem to violate several Misplaced Pages principles (WP:NPOV; WP:NOT) for us to be the judge of what is news rather than newsmen. I find it hard to imagine that the remarkable feat of having kidnapped 3 women and held them captive in the same neighbourhood of their capture - a densely populated area no less - for more 10 years could be reasonably judged as less newsworthy than the World Snooker Championship! - Nbpolitico (talk) 02:15, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Yes, well, there was a discussion about reforming ITN/R but no consensus was reached. Personally I would like to see less sports on ITN, but I respect the consensus. I have a personal gauge of article notability and ITN worthiness: Could a movie or documentary be made out of it? and Will the movie or documentary be any good? This story is 100% guaranteed to be made into a horrid movie or two, so it is notable enough. But the movie won't be any good, so it doesn't belong on ITN. Abductive (reasoning) 03:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Well that's not much of a litmus test, because that Thatcher movie was awful. GRAPPLE X 03:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Which Thatcher movie? Thatcher: The Final Days, Margaret (2009 film), or The Iron Lady (film)?Abductive (reasoning) 04:57, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oh god they're multiplying. I think I need to lie down. GRAPPLE X 05:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Not forgetting The Long Walk to Finchley... Espresso Addict (talk) 05:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. In my opinion, exactly the sort of news that Misplaced Pages is not designed for. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Interesting Stat: While there are close to 800,000 kids reported mi missing a year in the US, most are not kidnappings. Of the kidnappings nearly all are by family/parents. Only about 115 children were the victims of "stereotypical" kidnapping. (These crimes involve someone the child does not know or someone of slight acquaintance, who holds the child overnight, transports the child 50 miles or more, kills the child, demands ransom, or intends to keep the child permanently.) Of those 115 how many are perpetrated by a group of related serial kidnappers, for sex, and last a decade before they escape? That is why this is in the news - it is super rare. Legacypac (talk) 06:39, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose mildly titillating, but something which is much more tabloid-oriented than our main page should be. This has certainly already dropped off the news where I live, perhaps interesting for Ohio Misplaced Pages, but not English Misplaced Pages. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:53, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Weak oppose - Headline-grabbing stuff, but sadly this is an egregious example of an issue which is relatively prevalent. On the other hand, using this to highlight the horror of violence against women would be a fair reflection of that aspect of the news. So I'm not strongly opposed. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:06, 8 May 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Ray Harryhausen for RD Article: Ray Harryhausen (talk · history · tag) Recent deaths nomination Blurb:  American animation pioneer Ray Harryhausen dies at age 92 (Post) News source(s): BBC Credits: Nominated by Bob Castle (talk · give credit) Updated by Medeis (talk · give credit) Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Misplaced Pages article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD. Bob talk 17:31, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support hugely influential, article is not yet updated. μηδείς (talk) 17:38, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support full blurb. Harryhausen was a giant in his field (cinema/special effects), the likes of which we won't ever see again—in a day when every effect is the result of a room of programmers, the notion of just one person revolutionising the field has died with Ray. GRAPPLE X 17:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support as RD - Influential, but a full blurb for a natural causes old-age death is only for when there is an international media frenzy. --LukeSurl 17:54, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Updated as of this edit. RD is sufficient since death itself was not blurbworthy. μηδείς (talk) 18:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support he made a real monster contribution to film special effects. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:13, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support RD notable enough. Wont ever support full blurbs unless it's someone of mega world importance. 85.210.97.69 (talk) 18:26, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Ready as there seems to be little opposition and the article's in good shape. μηδείς (talk) 18:28, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Support for ticker. Formerip (talk) 18:35, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Posted to Recent Deaths. -- tariqabjotu 18:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC) May 6 Portal:Current events/2013 May 6 May 6, 2013 (2013-05-06) (Monday) edit history watch Armed conflicts and attacks Afghanistan–Pakistan skirmishes: An Afghan border police guard is killed and two Pakistani troops are injured in border violence. (BBC) Syrian civil war: Rebels shoot down a Syrian Military helicopter in Deir ez-Zor Governorate killing all eight soldiers on board. (AP via Anchorage Daily News) A UN official on a Swiss television station says the UN has "concrete" suspicions that the rebels have used Sarin gas. The UN later released a statement in response stressing that it has not reached any official conclusions, and has yet to have acquired proof that either side used chemical weapons. (The New York Times),(BBC) Iraqi insurgency (post-U.S. withdrawal): At least 10 people are killed and 26 others injured in attacks across Iraq. (Xinhua) 13 people die in clashes between Islamist protesters and Bangladesh Police officers in the Bangladesh capital of Dhaka and the outlying suburb of Kanchpur. (AP via Fox News) War in North-West Pakistan: 15 people are killed and another 50 are injured when a bomb detonates at a political rally of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam in Kurram Valley, Federally Administered Tribal Areas, Pakistan. (Xinhua) Business and economy Wal-Mart passes ExxonMobil as the largest company by revenue on the annual Fortune 500 list. (Economic Times) Bank of America agrees to pay US$1.6 billion to insurer MBIA to settle a long-running dispute between MBIA and two companies Bank of America had since acquired. (The New York Times) Health and environment A new Swedish study published in the journal Pediatrics finds that children whose parents suck on their pacifiers have fewer allergies later in life. (The New York Times) Law and crime Germany arrests a 93-year-old, alleged former Auschwitz guard, Hans Lipschis, on charges of murder. (AFP via Google News), (BBC) According to the FBI, a terror attack is disrupted when US authorities raid a mobile home in Montevideo, Minnesota, United States. (AP via News24) U.S. Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Krusinski, who was in charge of the Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office, is arrested on charges of sexual assault. (ABC News) A stolen dinosaur skeleton is returned to Mongolia. (Los Angeles Times) Three women missing for more than a decade are found alive in the U.S. city of Cleveland, Ohio, while a 52-year-old man, Ariel Castro, is taken into custody. (The Guardian), (News Limited) American singer Lauryn Hill is sentenced to prison for three months after being convicted of tax evasion. (Huffington Post) Politics and elections Seven-time Prime Minister of Italy Giulio Andreotti dies in Rome at the age of 94 years. (BBC) The US Senate passes a bill allowing states to tax internet sales. (Nordonia Hills News-Leader) Italian ex-prime minister Giulio Andreotti death Article: Giulio Andreotti (talk · history · tag) Recent deaths nomination Blurb:  Italian ex-prime minister Giulio Andreotti dies at age 94 (Post) News source(s): BBC Credits: Nominated by Azeez (talk · give credit) Updated by The Rambling Man (talk · give credit) Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Misplaced Pages article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD. --Azeez 12:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support as RD - quite notable, but doesn't seem to be the media storm of Margret Thatcher. LukeSurl 15:56, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support full blurb - the death of any former head of government/state is notable (regardless of whether that country is English-speaking) and especially for a 'well-known' country like Italy. The death has received large coverage in the news, appearing on the front pages of news websites such as the BBC and "The Guardian". Obviously it is extensively covered in Italy. -- Hazhk 13:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC) RD only unless there is a huge media storm in next day or so. From inside UK is probably not best place to compare extent of coverage with death of Thatcher. Kevin McE (talk) 13:55, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support RD third in the UK's BBC news page, a significant figure but perhaps not full blurbworthy. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Comment: article currently has zero info about his death, or personal life in general. It also has several "citation needed" marked sentences. Article thus should not be posted at this time. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC) RD when updated: not sitting and death itself not a blurbworthy one. μηδείς (talk) 16:37, 6 May 2013 (UTC) RD only, his political involvement was relatively minor in those last years, so the political impact of his death is relatively low. Mikael Häggström (talk) 16:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Question Can anyone tell me in what why this individual satisfies ITN/DC #1? --IP98 (talk) 18:05, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Well, he was Prime Minster of Italy three times. I know it's nothing compared to playing Robin Williams' oversized son on TV or performing at Woodstock, but is it not enough in it's own way? Formerip (talk) 18:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Heh, if only some people read the actual articles they're commenting on! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Ok so he was PM of Italy 3 times, so was Berlusconi and he's a pedophile and a thug, seems par for the course for Italy. Still trying to see how he had a significant contribution/impact on the country/region. --IP98 (talk) 20:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Guess you're on your own thinking he hasn't made a significant impact. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:17, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support for RD, not a blurb Head of state meets DC#1, but reserve the blurbs for Margaret Thatcher-types. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC) And the same for heads of government, like Andreotti. Kevin McE (talk) 18:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Yeah my bad, meant to say head of govt. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:19, 6 May 2013 (UTC) So we're going to post every former PM/President from every country? Really? --IP98 (talk) 20:16, 6 May 2013 (UTC) No, but perhaps one that has served government for around 50 years and PM'd multiple times, yes, an RD listing seems appropriate. It is, after all, two words on the main page you're talking about. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC) I just don't want to set the precedent that every former head of state get on RD. All I asked was for someone to explain how he qualified, not to be belittled. --IP98 (talk) 20:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Reading the article would have helped. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 3 times PM, a criminal trial. Like I said, par for the course for Italy. That said, upon reflection it's hard to imagine any head of state/govt (whichever position isn't ceremonial) not passing #1 for RD. --IP98 (talk) 20:29, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Well if you don't like RD criteria, change them. So far this has serious support, and you asking "what's this all about?". Go figure. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Right because it's easier to say "read the article" 2 or 3 times and then call me "simply absurd" rather than express a rationale. --IP98 (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC) I said to oppose it was absurd, I didn't say you were absurd. Please read more carefully. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:43, 6 May 2013 (UTC) (edit conflict)Support full blurb was 7 times prime minister of Italy, was a minister in almost all governments from 1945 to 1991, was a dominant figure in Italy's political life thru-out the first republic and was one of the two last members of the constituent still alive. I would say he has been the most important political figure of the postwar Italy: while others have shined brighter, they also have lasted a fraction of what he has in politics. As a side note, I wish people above read the articles before commenting here: he has never been head of state and he was prime minister 7 times - not 3. Snowolf 18:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Looks like it's the article that's giving the wrong count on the times he's been prime minister. Snowolf 18:44, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support Probably a full blurb, but I really have no preference. 7 time prime minister is a big deal. Article needs updating. Ryan Vesey 19:27, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support full blurb If we take into consideration that he was a Prime Minister and a Minister, it doesn't say too much about any outstanding significance. But combining these things with the fact he hold these offices in 7 occasions as a Prime Minister and numerous times a Minister in almost every government perhaps makes this nomination worth supporting for a full blurb.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:43, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support RD. Level of coverage seems to be about line line with that.--Johnsemlak (talk) 19:59, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Strong oppose blurb, support RD simply serving in public office does not even establish notability under ITN/DC #1, let alone "qualify" for a full blurb. --IP98 (talk) 20:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Clearly meets the requirements of recent deaths, to oppose it is simply absurd. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:17, 6 May 2013 (UTC) You'll notice I opposed blurb, didn't say either way about RD. --IP98 (talk) 20:22, 6 May 2013 (UTC) So try to be helpful and give both opinions as you know the community is discussing both options. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC) I was withholding judgement on RD until someone gave an ITN/DC justification, but like I said above, I think every head of state will pass in some way or other. --IP98 (talk) 20:30, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support full blurb. Seven years as head of government, six decades of political activity at high appointments. Seems more than enough to me. GRAPPLE X 20:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Question Where are people getting the three times prime minister information from? Everything I've raid says seven and our article doesn't specify. Ryan Vesey 20:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC) That's because some of his terms were contiguous and so some are bunching them up. The official count is 7 governments. Snowolf 20:44, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support RD, oppose blurb I think blurbs should be reserved for major global figures. While Andreotti was an extremely important figure in Italian politics, I don't think he had the level of global impact needed to warrant a full blurb. Neljack (talk) 21:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Still not updated - perhaps instead of arguing over semantics someone could bother to actually add some info about his personal life/death/reaction to death/legacy to the article? --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Yeah, updated, seven minutes work about someone I've never heard of or have any feeling about, and we're there. Let's post this at RD and move on. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support RD only per Neljack. 331dot (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Posted to recent deaths. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:16, 7 May 2013 (UTC) 2013 World Snooker Championship Article: 2013 World Snooker Championship (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ The World Snooker Championship concludes with Ronnie O'Sullivan defeating Barry Hawkins to defend the title. (Post) Credits: Nominated by Kiril Simeonovski (talk · give credit) The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.Nominator's comments: The World Snooker Championship is the most important ranking tournament in the sport, which is traditionally played at the end of every season. It is also listed as ITN/R. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 06:54, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support based on article quality; the summary of the tournament is relatively complete, and this is ITNR so it doesn't need any support on significance. --Jayron32 14:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support of course, based on an update. Although "why is this nominated before the results and updates?" The Rambling Man (talk) 15:44, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support should be over in a few hours. Nergaal (talk) 16:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Comment The final is over. Ronnie O'Sullivan defended the title he won last year.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 19:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Comment Can we not link to the section? Ryan Vesey 19:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Marked as ready, the update (i.e. the score in the final) has been made, along with sufficient reference to prove it actually happened. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Posted Update is good enough. -- tariqabjotu 20:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Raoul Wallenberg Article: Raoul Wallenberg (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg (pictured in 1944), who saved tens of thousands of Jewish lives during the Holocaust, becomes the first ever honorary citizen of Australia (Post) Alternative blurb: ​ Holocaust rescuer Raoul Wallenberg (pictured in 1944), is declared the first ever honorary citizen of Australia. News source(s): Sydney Morning Herald, Governor-General's announcement, BBC, The Times (London), German broadcaster Deutsche Welle, GlobalPost, AsiaOne Credits: Updated and nominated by EdChem (talk · give credit) Nominator's comments: This is my first ever ITN nomination, apologies if I have made mistakes but please explain and I'll try to correct them. Diff for cumulative update pointing to section where most material was added. This is the first time Australia has ever made someone an honorary citizen. It has been covered by the BBC and The Times in the UK, by a German broadcaster, and by Asian and US-based web news services so I suggest it has had global coverage. I admit to a lack of ITN experience but I thought this was worthy of consideration. EdChem (talk) 13:52, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Weak support Article is good quality, update is sufficient, and there are links to news items. Withholding full support until the orange level tag is resolved. That needs fixing, but as soon as that problem is fixed, the article should be worthwhile to put on the main page based on its length and overall quality. --Jayron32 14:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose He had no personal connection to Australia, this is about politicians doing what politicians do. μηδείς (talk) 16:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose, a very honorable person (and Swedish, yay), but subsequently it's not unusual with such acts related to him, such as Raoul_Wallenberg#Honours, Raoul_Wallenberg#Awards_in_his_name, Raoul_Wallenberg#Schools_named_after_him. Among all those honors, this one does not seem outstanding enough for ITN. Mikael Häggström (talk) 16:48, 6 May 2013 (UTC) I think the noteworthy part is not supposed to be Raoul Wallenberg being honoured yet again, but Australia creating an honorary citizen for the first time. Formerip (talk) 16:53, 6 May 2013 (UTC) In that case, I think it's "...honorary citizen of Australia" that needs to be bolded, and having its article (or its redirect target article) updated. Mikael Häggström (talk) 16:59, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Given that he is the only honorary citizen, that article would probably redirect to the currently bolded article? MChesterMC (talk) 08:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose A nice gesture, but what use can citizenship be to somebody 65 years after they died? Citizenship is to do with rights and duties, and rights and duties cease with death. Gesture politics: do they have an election coming up in Oz? Kevin McE (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Weak support. FormerIP is right that what is notable here isn't so much the person selected for this honor, but the fact that the honor was first bestowed. Honorary citizenship rarely carries any rights or benefits, that's why it's "honorary". I'd support this more if it was given to someone more recent, though. Mikael is also right that the honorary citizen article should be bolded if that's the focus. 331dot (talk) 21:17, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Weak oppose. Doesn't seem that notable (on the global scale). Kaldari (talk) 00:59, 8 May 2013 (UTC) May 5 Portal:Current events/2013 May 5 May 5, 2013 (2013-05-05) (Sunday) edit history watch Armed conflicts and attacks Syrian civil war: Israeli aircraft hit at least six targets near Damascus, targeting Iranian-made Fateh-110 missile shipments en route to Hezbollah. (BBC) (The Times of Israel) Syria's foreign ministry accuses Israel of helping and working with the Syrian rebels to coordinate airstrikes (Xinhua) (ABC) (The New York Times) Communist insurgency in the Philippines: New People's Army attack a mining site at Sipalay, Negros Occidental and burn equipment. A firefight ensues leaving five soldiers dead and two wounded. (Philippine Star) Somali Civil War (2009–present): Eight people are dead after a suicide bomber rams an explosive-laden car into a convoy carrying Qatari officials through the center of Somalia's capital Mogadishu. Al-Shabaab claims responsibility for the attack. (Voice of America) Three people are dead and over 200 are injured when Hefajat-e-Islam and Jamaat-e-Islami clash with police in Dhaka, Bangladesh. (The Hindu) One person is dead and another 57 are injured after a bomb detonates inside a Roman Catholic church in Arusha, Tanzania. (Reuters) Nigerian Sharia conflict: 10 people are killed in an attack on a church and a local market in Njilan, Adamawa State, Nigeria. (AP via The Montana Standard) Disasters A limousine catches fire on the San Mateo Bridge in Hayward, California, United States killing five women and injuring four trapped inside. (Boston.com) A military aircraft crashes during an air show killing the pilot and injuring another 19 on the ground in Madrid, Spain. (Kuwaiti News Agency) 2013 Savar building collapse: The death toll in Bangladesh rises to 622. (Washington Post) Law and crime Six people are wounded during a drive-by shooting outside a McDonald's restaurant in East Palo Alto, California, United States. (Huffington Post) (San Francisco Chronicle) Politics and elections Malaysia's ruling coalition Barisan Nasional retains a majority of parliamentary seats in the general election. (FT) Helmin Wiels, leader of the largest political party in Curaçao, is assassinated. (BBC) Science and Technology A test of an M51 missile by the French military ends in failure when it self-destructs in midair. (RFI) The world's first gun produced by Defense Distributed using a 3-D printer is fired successfully in Austin, Texas, United States. Security officials worry that such plastic weapons could evade detection at airport screenings. (BBC),(WGBH) Saudi Arabia Article: Women's rights in Saudi Arabia (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ Saudi Arabia decides to allow girls to participate in sports at private schools for the first time. (Post) News source(s): CBS Credits: Nominated by ThaddeusB (talk · give credit) Article needs updatingNominator's comments: Historic decision in a country long opposed to women in sports. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:04, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support A significant, if modest, change. Neljack (talk) 06:56, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support There is a list of rights that women in Saudi Arabia are requested to attain and every movement towards its accomplishment is a good starting point.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose Update to article contains nothing that is not in the blurb, no clarity about degree of encouragement/compulsion to participate, no detail about whether competitive, not unprecedented for Saudi women to be involved in sport, a minor issue compared to other restrictions on rights. Is this list that Kiril refers to some authoritative document? Kevin McE (talk) 12:13, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Note: The article is not yet updated, as noted in the nomination template. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:30, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - Insignificant, per Kevin. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Weak oppose per Kevin; if they start allowing women to drive or something like that, it would be a notable change. 331dot (talk) 21:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support when article updated. This is a significant if small change and rapid change in Saudi Arabia on this subject is unfortunately unlikely. Espresso Addict (talk) 03:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. Given that this minor change is confined to private schools, I don't think it rises to the level of a significant reform. As User:Espresso Addict says, post when they allow women to drive. Abductive (reasoning) 16:16, 7 May 2013 (UTC) That was 331dot, not me, though I agree driving would be a more significant development. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:34, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Support if the article is updated. Seems to be an interesting development. Kaldari (talk) 00:54, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Malaysian general election Article: Malaysian general election, 2013 (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ In the Malaysian general election the Barisan Nasional party is re-elected. (Post) Alternative blurb: ​ The Barisan Nasional wins a majority in the Malaysian general election. News source(s): BBC Credits: Nominated by LukeSurl (talk · give credit) Article updated The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.Nominator's comments: ITN/R election. --LukeSurl 17:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Comment Blurb should include some note on the final percentages, noting how close it was and whether or not a two-thirds majority has been achieved, as both these points are extensively discussed in news stories. CMD (talk) 17:56, 5 May 2013 (UTC) * Comment The General election article looks to be comprehensive and fine, but it needs updates on the result, both in the lede and prose in the result section. Regards,Iselilja (talk) 19:06, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Comment. While it seems that no significant worldwide coverage on the matter exists, there have been many reports on Twitter of recounts called in ridings where the BN was trailing, followed by an electrical blackout and then extra ballot boxes handing the win to the ruling party. Also interesting was that the ink used to stamp voters was easily washable after two hours of voting, and the widespread allegations of flying in Bangladeshis to cast phantom votes. Many Malaysians seem to be calling this the most tainted election in what was supposed to be a very close race. Very interesting! EricLeb (Page | Talk) 20:13, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Also, I've changed the blurb to link to the stand-alone article for the election, which requires final results and updated reactions. And MalaysiaKini is reporting that the opposition won seven net seats, therefore the government is still denied a 2/3rd majority. EricLeb (Page | Talk) 20:31, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Strong support Malaysia is a country with a large English-speaking population and this election is likely to set the country's course for the next 5 years. Even if the article needs work, this should go up on ITN today to avoid WP:BIAS. Matt's talk 10:12, 6 May 2013 (UTC) That's not how things work - a textual update is mandatory. --ThaddeusB (talk) 15:28, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support per ITN/R. In the age of "no minimum update" I don't know what else is needed besides a one-liner about the winner and a results table. The article is orange tagged NPOV though so that will need to be resolved. --IP98 (talk) 20:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC) The update requirement still exists. A few people's vocal opposition to it has not changed that. --ThaddeusB (talk) 20:57, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Should be Ready. The numbers are in and this section should be sufficient prose. Someone has slapped a NPOV tag at the top of the article but not explained any specific complaint, so I imagine it can probably be removed. --LukeSurl 17:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Article is sufficiently updated. Ready to be posted. --RJFF (talk) 21:12, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Agreed, article is ready for posting --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:17, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Posted. --Bongwarrior (talk) 04:45, 8 May 2013 (UTC) Saradha Group financial scandal 2 Article: Saradha Group financial scandal (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ CBI begins investigation into India's largest ever Ponzi scheme collapse, which resulted in several suicides and a loss of 4-6 billion USD. (Post) News source(s): Daily Mail Credits: Nominated by Legaleagle86 (talk · give credit) Article updatedNominator's comments: 4-6 billion USD lost, biggest ponzi scam in India, 4 committed suicide, political nexus, daily street protests, blanket media coverage in Eastern India, wide coverage in India, described by one observer as 'The entire Dakshin Barasat today looks like it was hit by a cyclone. Every home has a bankrupt depositor or a fugitive agent. People who were friends have turned enemies. Happy households have become miserable' it perhaps echoes Alexander Popes quote on stock bubbles 'churches sink as generally as banks in Europe'. In my opinion merits a mention in ITN. originally LegalEagle (talk). Blurb and references updated by Tenebris 16:08, 5 May 2013 (UTC) On a trivial note, the blurb is way too long; it should be something like "India's Central Bureau of Investigation begins an investigation into the nation's largest ever Ponzi scheme collapse." More importantly, what is the date of the event in the proposed blurb? As discussed previously, many of the important events in this story are too old to post. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:55, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Comment: this story has already been nominated, by the same person, several days ago. See the section #Saradha Group financial scandal below. Why have you nominated this a second time? Modest Genius 20:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Presumably because the other one was WP:SNOWing, even with unanimous support, because everyone had forgotten about it.  — TORTOISEWRATH 22:11, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Someone recommended he renominate with a newer blurb since the blurb that had support was too old to post. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:02, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Yes, but I think this is pure bureaucracy. People were probably supporting the story, and I doubt anyone would object to a blurb that focuses on a significant development in the story, even if it's not the same significant development they were presented with. There's no reason to waste time waiting for all those people to give their approval to a different blurb. If a couple people agree that this is a significant aspect of the story, this can be posted with a date of April 30. -- tariqabjotu 03:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support TheOriginalSoni (talk) 09:26, 8 May 2013 (UTC) May 4 Portal:Current events/2013 May 4 May 4, 2013 (2013-05-04) (Saturday) edit history watch Armed conflicts and attacks War in Afghanistan Five US soldiers are killed when a bomb detonates in Kandahar, Afghanistan. Additionally, three more are killed in separate incidents. (The New York Times) Syrian civil war: Israeli forces, in a second attack in as many days, bomb a weapons shipment of sophisticated missiles suspected as being transported from Syria to Hezbollah in Lebanon. (The Washington Post) Activists claim that 77 people are massacred in the Syrian city of Baniyas by government forces; the government claims it was fighting against "terrorist groups." (BBC) 39 people are killed during religiously motivated clashes at a funeral in Wukari, Nigeria. (Bloomberg) Arts and culture Cuban Filin pioneer César Portillo de la Luz dies at the age of 90. (The Miami Herald) American author Harper Lee files a lawsuit claiming that a literary agent tricked her into relinquishing the copyright on her book, To Kill a Mockingbird. (The Guardian) Business and economy Hundreds of protestors gather in Chinese cities to rally against planned large-scale industrial projects. (Bloomberg) Disasters and accidents A train carrying toxic flammable chemicals derails and causes a major fire near the Belgian town of Wetteren, killing two and wounding forty-nine. (BBC) Health and environment The National Health Service in England says it is investigating seven "potentially serious" incidents involving its recently-established non-emergency medical helpline, NHS 111. (BBC) In the U.S., Alaska's Cleveland Volcano experiences a low-level eruption. (AP via Fox News) Law and crime Nigel Evans, a deputy speaker of the United Kingdom House of Commons, is arrested for allegedly raping two men. (The Guardian) (Daily Mail) Sports In horse racing, Dominican Joel Rosario rides Orb to win the Kentucky Derby. (USA Today) In boxing, American Floyd Mayweather retains his WBC Welterweight title by defeating Robert Guerrero in a unanimous decision. (The New York Times) In association football, Juventus F.C. win their 29th Scudetto. (BBC) César Portillo de la Luz Article: César Portillo de la Luz (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ Award-winning Cuban composer César Portillo de la Luz, who pioneered the filin movement, dies at the age of 90. (Post) News source(s): Miami Herald, El Neuvo Herald, Radio Cubana Credits: Updated and nominated by Bonkers The Clown (talk · give credit) Article updatedNominator's comments: Highly celebrated music figure in Cuba. Known to many in Cuba, his death was reported by many Cuban news sources. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Support for RD in principle. Notable for being credited with founding a genre of music, recognized with awards, and has critical acclaim. Wondering if the article could be a little longer, perhaps expanding it to include a list of what he composed. 331dot (talk) 13:35, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose That you just created this article suggests insufficient importance for this. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:54, 5 May 2013 (UTC) One doesn't have to do with the other; having a prior existing article on Misplaced Pages is not an indication in and of itself of notability, nor is it a requirement for ITN(or ITN/RD). 331dot (talk) 13:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC) And besides. The es. Wiki article on him existed for a long time. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 14:03, 5 May 2013 (UTC) This is the English wiki, not the Spanish wiki. It's not a requirement, no, but it is a sign. Filin (music) is pretty sparse as well. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:42, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose at current - surely if the subject is notable enough to appear on RD then more than 3 paragraphs can be written about him. I'm willing to be persuaded by a more complete article. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:47, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Length was also one of my concerns, which is tied to its newness. It was barely long enough for DYK when I checked. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose If being "a very important figure in his or her field" is going to be taken as including a sub-genre of a local adaptation of a musical style that only ever had a handful of professional exponents and died out after about ten years without ever making an impact beyond its native culture, then we really need to redefine ITN/DC2. Kevin McE (talk) 16:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose for reasons such as "FFS who?", "are we going to post the death of every member of bands that had an impact on a subgenre now?", "writing a love/pop song does not make you internationally notable", and a generic "not sufficiently important". --IP98 (talk) 16:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Support reasonably popular adult contemporary singer, better than nothing. Update deserves recognition. μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Strong oppose. If he didn't even have an article before two days ago then he's not even close to notable enough to get an RD mention. Ridiculous. Wizardman 16:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Kentucky Derby Article: 2013 Kentucky Derby (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ Orb ridden by Joel Rosario wins the Kentucky Derby at Churchill Downs (Post) News source(s): USA Today, ESPN Credits: Nominated by Andise1 (talk · give credit) Updated by ThaddeusB (talk · give credit) Article updated The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.Nominator's comments: Major horse racing event that is on ITN/R. Sources will be added to the nomination when the race is completed and there is a winner. Andise1 (talk) 22:12, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose why is this nominated before the results and updates? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs) This was nominated just a few minutes before the race had begun which meant the results would arrive shortly after this was nominated. I also am really confused as to why you opposed this nomination because it was nominated before the event actually took place. Regardless of when this event is nominated, it is still on ITN/R and still very notable. Andise1 (talk) 22:48, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Support per ITN/R. In the age of "no minimum update", the update is more than adequate. --IP98 (talk) 00:21, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Support once updated. Most identifiable race in horse racing. -- Anc516 (Talk ▪ Contribs) 00:22, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Currently not ready. Among the requirements in this case (a newly created article) are 'three well-formed paragraphs' which I don't see at the moment.--Johnsemlak (talk) 00:42, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Comment: For an example of a ITN-ready update would look like, see 2010 Kentucky Derby#Results. Spencer 02:45, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose based on update, which does not sufficiently summarize the event. When the race itself is relatively completely summarized, then ITNR should take over, but the article is not sufficiently updated yet. --Jayron32 04:09, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Removing opposition. Update is now more than sufficient, ITNR so it doesn't need my support for significance. --Jayron32 04:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Now updated and ready for posting --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:43, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Support per ITN/R. The Kentucky Derby is surely the first thing that comes to my mind when talking about horse racing. With its long tradition and significance for the sport, there should be place for this one once a year on the main page.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:31, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Posting. Mentioning the sport as well. --Tone 12:37, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Israeli attack into Syria Article: Syrian civil war#Israeli_airstrikes (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ Israeli warplanes strike at multiple targets in Syria, near Damascus. (Post) News source(s): BBC, NBC News, CNN Credits: Nominated by Thue (talk · give credit) Article updatedNominator's comments: Probably an attack to stop transfers of advanced weapons to Hezbollah. Direct military intervention into the Syrian civil war by a third party is unusual, and therefore notable. Thue (talk) 09:43, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Support per nom's comments. Receiving wide coverage. 331dot (talk) 10:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC) oppose happened before, itll happen againLihaas (talk) 10:23, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Neutral - needs update the section has a single source. The statement On 30 January 2013, about ten Israeli jets bombed a convoy believed by Israel to be carrying Russian-made SA-17 anti-aircraft missiles to Lebanon. is not backed by that source. The paragraph says but unnamed US official said that the likely target was a weapons site. but the source doesn't say that. Needs some work. Welcome to Israel 38 0 days since a violation of international law. It's not a race, maybe a few paragraphs and different sources would provide a better explanation and improve confidence in the content. Lihaas points out that it's happened before, and we can't start a "Recent Israeli Attacks" ticker. --IP98 (talk) 10:26, 4 May 2013 (UTC) The January 30 attack is linked to its own main article with plenty of sources, so I did not find it necessary to quote sources for the short summary of that article. Thue (talk) 10:32, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Sorry, I didn't see that link earlier. Withdrawn. --IP98 (talk) 10:46, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose per FutureTrillionaire. --IP98 (talk) 14:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Reinstate the Civil War sticky? This seems to have been in the news increasingly more recently than it had been over the early months of 2013. --LukeSurl 10:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Start a separate nom for that please. --IP98 (talk) 11:09, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - These strikes are isolated incidents. The impact on the war is rather insignificant.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 11:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Support as a major developing story with decent media coverage. The blurb is fine saying "unknown target(s)", but it's not our job to figure out what might be the target of this attack.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:16, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose per Lihaas.--В и к и T 13:48, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Support A military attack by one state on another is certainly sufficiently important, particularly in the context of the situation in Syria. Neljack (talk) 00:24, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Israel bombs someone almost every other weekend. It's routine for the IDF to violate their neighbours territory, destroy structures, capture people in international waters or foreign nations. Did they intervene on the side of the government or the insurgents? No. They did was Israel does, attack someone without provocation to protect their interests. FutureTrillionaire is absolutely right: "The impact on the war is rather insignificant.". --IP98 (talk) 01:08, 5 May 2013 (UTC) I quite agree that, deplorably, Israel commonly attacks other states, but I don't see that as diminishing the importance of this. It certainly got extensive international media coverage. Neljack (talk) 03:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Would you kindly explain why this instance was "deplorable"? -- Ypnypn (talk) 18:38, 5 May 2013 (UTC) A second attack is reported, this time on a chemical weapons research . In light of this update, I support mentioning one or both of the attacks. Mohamed CJ (talk) 07:19, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Apparently this second attack is really big, a Syrian journalist interviewed by RT reports that 300 soldiers were killed . Mohamed CJ (talk) 14:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Support pending a major update - by which I mean several more high value paragraphs describing what has happened from a NPOV and with several varied references. If this serious matter is to go on the Main page it has got to be our best. Jusdafax 08:11, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Support This is now the lead story on nytimes.com. Regardless of its effect on the war, Israel attacking targets within Syria is big news because it may lead to a broader war.--Chaser (talk) 16:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Support per Chaser. -- Ypnypn (talk) 19:00, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Comment suggest forking this section to it's own article. This obviously (though regrettably) has support to go up. --IP98 (talk) 20:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC) After watching today's slow but steady edit war on the article as a whole, I agree that a dedicated article on the 2013 Israeli Air Strikes on Syria would be a good idea. Interestingly, one of our ITN contributors who !voted to oppose this story is responsible for one of the deletions, and I am responsible for reverting a deletion by what appears to be a WP:SPA. This won't be easy, and NPOV will be elusive, I fear. Jusdafax 00:58, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Support this is important enough that the only excuse for not posting it would be that we already have a sticky--which we don't. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Ready has overwhelming support and is quite well updated as of this edit μηδείς (talk) 02:22, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Posted -- tariqabjotu 02:49, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Syria sticky No consensus to post sticky. Spencer 21:15, 5 May 2013 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Syria seems to be more in the news recently than it has been over the early months of 2013. Significant events occur frequently, mostly armed attacks with large loss-of-life but also other types of events. Will probably continue for months. Propose that we re-instate the Syrian civil war sticky sticky to address this. --LukeSurl 13:38, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Support. Syria is the most important hot conflict in the world right now. Thue (talk) 13:42, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Comment We use to introduce a sticky on the main page only when there are numerous different items relating to a single event that warrant inclusion, and thus avoid ITN focus on the same story. Unfortunately, the nomination about the Israeli attack is the only one related item for now, so it's not necessary to insert the sticky again. I don't deny that many events are ongoing in Syria, but we don't have sufficient amount of nominations for them.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:56, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose "Syrian civil war" is an orange tagged mess. The article is huge, with no easy way for readers to find recently updated content. The "timeline" articles (example) are running death toll tickers. 1) There is simply no good article to feature on the main page. 2) These civil wars can go on for years (this one has) so what would be the threshold to remove the sticky? The end of the war? I really think that readers of WP are better served when specific events with their own quality articles can be featured, such as the mosque in Aleppo, the rebels capturing that regional capital, and now maybe the Israeli airstrike. --IP98 (talk) 14:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose as per IP98. The Syrian civil war article in itself hasn't changed that much lately, except for the April-to-present section, which may be relatively hard for a newcomer to find in such a large article. Rather, I think there should be an increased tolerance towards individual ITN nominations that include "In the Syrian civil war...", "In the Damascus offensive...", "In the Battle of Aleppo..." or similar, giving a more straightforward approach to recent events. Mikael Häggström (talk) 14:16, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Comment Syrian civil war is now bound by WP:ARBPIA (probably for some time, I don't participate in that article). --IP98 (talk) 00:14, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose Nothing has changed since the sticky was last time removed. Oppose until increased coverage can be demonstrated by reliable sources. --hydrox (talk) 00:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. May 3 Portal:Current events/2013 May 3 May 3, 2013 (2013-05-03) (Friday) edit history watch Armed conflicts and attacks Syrian civil war: Israeli warplanes bomb a Syrian weapons facility in an overnight attack. (The New York Times) Arts and culture The world's largest rubber duck is moved to Hong Kong. (ABC News) The Metropolitan Museum of Art announces that it will return two Koh Ker statues to Cambodia. (ABC News) Business and economics The Stockholm School of Economics, one of Sweden's most prestigious universities, is hit by scandal amidst revelation that top official Justin Jenk forged CMC documents about his conviction of insider trading in Greece. (Dagens Industri) (Swedish) Heavy construction equipment manufacturer Caterpillar announces it plans to lay off an additional 300 employees by July. (Chicago Tribune) Disasters and accidents 2013 Savar building collapse: The death toll in Bangladesh rises to 547. (CNN) Bangladesh's finance minister, Abul Maal Abdul Muhith, downplays the impact of last week's factory-building collapse on his country's garment industry. (AP via News24) A top investigator probing the disaster says that vibrations from four huge generators placed on the roof of the building caused it to collapse. (AFP via News24), (BBC) A U.S. KC-135 tanker aircraft on its way to Afghanistan crashes in northern Kyrgyzstan after a mid-flight explosion. (The Globe and Mail), (BBC) Wildfires continue to spread in the U.S. state of California. (Los Angeles Times) Law and crime British Brian Shivers is acquitted of any involvement in the 2009 Massereene Barracks shooting. Mr. Shivers, who has cystic fibrosis, has his life sentence overturned, having been jailed since January 2012 in what his solicitor describes as a miscarriage of justice. (BBC) (RTÉ) Chaudhry Zulfiqar Ali, a prosecutor with Pakistan's Federal Investigation Agency leading the prosecution of former President Pervez Musharraf over alleged involvement in the assassination of Benazir Bhutto, is shot dead on the way to court in Islamabad. (The Guardian) Daryl Washington, an American football player with the Arizona Cardinals, is arrested on aggravated assault charges in Phoenix, Arizona. (AP) Police in China arrest more than 900 people as they shutdown a million dollar crime ring that was selling rat meat as mutton. (Reuters) Politics and elections United Kingdom local elections, 2013: Results of the elections show gains for Labour and UKIP and losses for the Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party.BBC The UK Independence Party wins 140 seats, achieving 25% of the votes in areas where it fielded candidates, the party's most significant results to date. (BBC) Labour's Emma Lewell-Buck retains the South Shields Parliamentary seat for the party following Thursday's by-election, but with a reduced majority after the UK Independence Party secures almost a quarter of the votes cast. (BBC) Google calls one of its search engine websites "Google Palestine" instead of "Google Palestinian territories". (FOX) (BBC) Science and technology An international team of scientists announce the discovery in China of a new meat-eating Theropod dinosaur, Aorun zhaoi, dating from 161 million years ago. It is the oldest Coelurosaur known to date. (Design & Trend) Massereene Barracks murder trial miscarriage of justice No consensus to post. Spencer 22:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Article: 2009 Massereene Barracks shooting (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ In a UK miscarriage of justice, cystic fibrosis sufferer Brian Shivers—convicted in 2012 of murdering two British soldiers at Massereene Barracks and sentenced to life imprisonment—is acquitted and released from jail. (Post) News source(s): Reaction Report Credits: Nominated by 86.40.106.153 (talk · give credit) Article updated This should probably be summarily closed and the unsigned nominator 86.40.106.153 warned. μηδείς (talk) 21:38, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose not significant, many people sadly suffer from "miscarriages of justice" and many people suffer (on both sides) as a consequence. (Not sure what we're "warning" the nominator about? Remember WP:AGF?) The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose per TRM; nomination seems to be in good faith, not sure why the nominator needs to be warned. Major NPOV issues as well. 331dot (talk) 21:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose as per TRM. --LukeSurl 22:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - not a fan of miscarriages of justice, but this is simply not notable enough (The imprisonment of a man in NK below is more notable, and I Opposed that). Dunno why the IP should be warned either - I think a neutrally-toned note would do if any.--85.210.102.96 (talk) 08:07, 4 May 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. May 2 Portal:Current events/2013 May 2 May 2, 2013 (2013-05-02) (Thursday) edit history watch Armed conflicts and attacks The Chad government announces that it foiled a coup attempt that "had been in preparation for several months." (Reuters) Iraqi insurgency (post-U.S. withdrawal): At least 14 members of the Sons of Iraq are killed in two separate attacks within Fallujah. (BBC) Syrian civil war: Up to 100 people are killed in a raid of al-Bayda, Baniyas by the Syrian Army. (The Daily Star) Business and economy U.S. jobless claims fall to their lowest level in five years. (New York Daily News) Intel elects American Brian Krzanich as their new CEO. (MarketWatch) Disasters and accidents More than 60 miners die when a recently reopened gold mine collapses in Jebel Amir, North Darfur, Sudan. (Reuters) Hundreds of homes in California, U.S. are evacuated due to wildfires in the region. (Reuters) Health and environment The last known rhinoceroses in Mozambique are revealed to have been killed by poachers. (The Telegraph) The central northern United States experiences record snow fall. (USA Today) International relations North Korea sentences American Kenneth Bae to 15 years of prison labor for "hostile acts" against the regime. The United States calls for amnesty. (The Australian) (BBC) Law and crime A man fires two shots into the ceiling of Bush Intercontinental Airport in Houston, Texas, United States with a rifle before killing himself. (CNN) The U.S. state of Maryland abolishes capital punishment for future offenders. (Reuters) The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit rules that five relatives of Osama bin Laden and a construction company started by his father cannot be held liable for the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. (NBC) English broadcaster Stuart Hall pleads guilty to 14 charges of sexual assault. (BBC) British businessman James McCormick, who sold ADE 651 fake bomb detector to Iraq and other countries, is jailed for ten years at the Old Bailey. (BBC) Convicted Indian spy Sarabjit Singh dies after being attacked by fellow inmates in a Pakistani prison. He is flown home to India where the government of Punjab has declared him a martyr. (NDTV) The U.S. state of Rhode Island becomes the tenth state to legalize same-sex marriage. (AP via Fox News) Two kindergarteners are poisoned to death by the owner of a rival school in northern China. (International Business Times) Politics and government The Egyptian government announces it will replace six cabinet ministers. (Reuters) Voters in England and the Isle of Anglesey in Wales go to the polls for local elections. (BBC) Voting also gets underway in the South Shields by-election to fill the parliamentary seat vacated by former Foreign Secretary David Miliband. (BBC) Religion Two months after his resignation, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI returns to live in Vatican City at the Mater Ecclesiae. (BBC) Science and technology Harvard scientists unveil RoboBee, a robot with the smallest ever man-made wings capable of flight. (Los Angeles Times) RoboBee Article: RoboBee (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ Researchers unveil the smallest flying robot yet created. (Post) News source(s): Phys.org Credits: Updated and nominated by ThaddeusB (talk · give credit) Article updatedNominator's comments: On the ITN talk page, some people have expressed interest in featuring more positive stories and/or more stories that would interest our readers but aren't necessarily front page news. My first nomination in this vein was weakly rejected on the basis that it wasn't a real breakthrough/important record. Both are air critiques which I believe this nomination does not suffer from. This is a legitimate breakthrough (culmination of 12 years of research; published in Science) and (unofficial) record that multiple people\groups having been striving for. ThaddeusB (talk) 05:11, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Support Awe, isn't it cute... --Jayron32 05:36, 3 May 2013 (UTC) : Yay, awesome! Also, there's a Science paper backing it. Support. --Tone 07:04, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Support Ah yeah, this is rather cool. Article is crying out for a picture, could we get one? --LukeSurl 09:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose incremental update in the on going effort to miniaturize robots. Same category as the tiny film below: same dog, new trick. DYK? It's a new article with a decent hook. --IP98 (talk) 10:27, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Mmmm, it is a bit DYK-y... --LukeSurl 11:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC) I respectfully disagree that its an incremental update except in the general sense that all science is built on previous accomplishments. Achieving flight on this scale poses unique challenges that have never been overcome before (by humans anyway). --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose per IP98. 331dot (talk) 11:47, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Weak support. I though they were calling it the Robofly. Anyway, I find this achievement interesting and having many future uses. Regarding images, I found two that are available under CC-by-sa license . Mohamed CJ (talk) 15:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Those diagrams only have a loose relation to what's been created here. Much better to get a photo (fair use?) for the article. LukeSurl 17:15, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose per IP98. This looks like a good material for DYK.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC) From the researchers: "Unfortunately, the steady progress that has been made in miniaturizing robots over the past decade is of little help to us because the small size of the RoboBee changes the nature of the forces at play. Surface forces such as friction begin to dominate over volume-related forces such as gravity and inertia. This scaling problem rules out most of the mechanical engineer's standard tool kit, including rotary bearings and gears and electromagnetic motors -- components ubiquitous in larger robots but too inefficient for a RoboBee." - again, the RoboBee is not merelt an incremental improvement over previous efforts. --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Support Big jump compared to how flying machines looked before. And I think ITN ought to aim at reporting stuff from a few % of Science/Nature's articles. Narayanese (talk) 09:15, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. New ground gets broken in engineering all the time and there's no indication that this is particularly momentous (e.g. where is the significant news coverage?). It may be cool, but that's not a rationale for posting. Formerip (talk) 15:18, 4 May 2013 (UTC) There is plenty of coverage - 3490 hits according to Google News. UK (Guardian) USA (LA Times/AP) Canada (Globe and Mail)Australia (The Age) Germany France Spain Italy China Russia India Brazil South Africa Mexico and so on. I'd say that easily qualifies as worldwide coverage (not that it is a requirement) --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:41, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Also, disasters happen "all the time", famous people die "all the time", sports teams win championships "all the time", countries have elections "all the time", etc. Why is it that some subjects get treated differently than others? We post 2-3 disasters a week and a similar number of deaths of notable individuals, yet only 2-3 science stories a year. What is our obsession with death? --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:50, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Are we overloaded with stories about death? Absolutely, and I do see that as a problem. Perhaps the closer will take that into account and perhaps they should. But I don't think it means I have to support, regardless, anything that would lighten the mood. Formerip (talk) 22:40, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Preliminary support because it's awesome and would be a welcome change from all the death and destruction currently on ITN. Article definitely requires a picture, though.  — TORTOISEWRATH 17:01, 4 May 2013 (UTC) I added a (fair use) image to the article. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:11, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Removing ready tag. Procedurally, the nominator shouldn't add it. Also I don't see a real consensus for it. (no comment on the merits of the item itself). Hot Stop 17:24, 4 May 2013 (UTC) A 6:3 ratio (at the time, now 7:4) is generally considered adequate consensus. Marking ready is just a way to call attention to the item, so there is no reason an involved party can't mark it. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Support as well updated, marked ready. μηδείς (talk) 20:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. What makes this invention different from all other countless "neat" inventions released during the year? And the article itself points out crucial flaws: "the robot is too small to for even the smallest microchips"; "the researchers haven't figured out how to get a viable power supply on board ... Instead the robots have to be tethered with tiny cords that supply power and directions." Completely impractical and certainly not notable at this stage. Flying robots are quite the niche topic to be focussing on, particularly when they don't actually fly autonomously! EricLeb (Page | Talk) 21:06, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Is that really true? If they're not automated, then surely they're not actually robots? Formerip (talk) 22:40, 4 May 2013 (UTC) They are automated. The circuitry is attached, but part on it stays on the ground (b/c it is too large at current). --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:46, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Note given we can hardly expect the admin who created this article to promote himself another admin could perhaps look at doing so. μηδείς (talk) 22:53, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Support - Interesting, informative, has eventual applications in military and search and rescue, and the article is in good shape. I also support the concept of keeping ITN from an ongoing series of disasters and otherwise grim items. Jusdafax 22:59, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Posted -- tariqabjotu 00:19, 5 May 2013 (UTC) It's a waldo, not a robot. Abductive (reasoning) 00:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Do you have a source for this? The first line of the article describes this as "a tiny robot capable of flight". Spencer 02:47, 5 May 2013 (UTC) All sources, including the peer reviewed Science paper ("Controlled Flight of a Biologically Inspired, Insect-Scale Robot") call it a robot. --ThaddeusB (talk) 04:50, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Jeff Hanneman for RD Article: Jeff Hanneman (talk · history · tag) Recent deaths nomination (Post) News source(s): http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/1560534/slayer-guitarist-jeff-hanneman-dead-at-49 Credits: Nominated by Donnie Park (talk · give credit) Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Misplaced Pages article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD. --Donnie Park (talk) 22:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - I'm a Slayer fan, but this isn't noteworthy enough for ITN. There are hundreds of guitarists who are more influential and well-known. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Support? ... pending update Need reactions to death. Both Hanneman and King were ranked #10 on Guitar Worlds "100 Greatest Heavy Metal Guitarists of All Time". Hetfield, Hammett and Mustane are all in that same top 10, so it would seem he passes ITN/DC #2. --IP98 (talk) 23:00, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Here is an Ultimate-Guitar article with Tweets of other musicians' reactions to Jeff's death, does it help? Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 13:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Hanneman has writing credits for more than half of the bands work. It's all Hanneman/King or Hanneman or King. In the era of "there is no such thing as an update requirement" I'm switching to support. --IP98 (talk) 11:04, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Support update seems fine given that there's not much else to say besides the circumstances of his death, which is covered adequately. He's a key member of a highly influential musical act (Slayer is one of the "Big Four" thrash metal bands, which is a fairly important genre of music worldwide). Good RD fodder. --Jayron32 23:51, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Support. A lengthy and successful career with multiple albums certified gold worldwide, seems a good choice. GRAPPLE X 00:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose Slayer fan as well. Not sufficiently important. μηδείς (talk) 00:58, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Weak Oppose Not a Slayer fan (never really digged thrash), but you have to admit that he wrote some pretty pioneering tracks. Is his contribution notable? Well, not at this scale, no. EricLeb (Page | Talk) 01:19, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Comment I think this illustrates one of the problems with RD criterion #2: how to define what the relevant field is. Was Hanneman "widely regarded as a very important figure" in the field of heavy metal music? Probably. Was he "widely regarded as a very important figure" in the field of music as a whole? Probably not. It all depends on the way you define the relevant field, and it's not clear how to pick which one to use. Neljack (talk) 02:26, 3 May 2013 (UTC) I'd vote in favor of lowering the standards. This death is interesting, Saw Slayer several times in concert, they were my ex's favorite group, love Seasons in the Abyss. But it doesn't meet the current standard. μηδείς (talk) 02:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Well I think whether he meets the current standard depends on how you define the relevant field. On reflection, I have decided to support, since I've supported other people on the basis that they were very important in their area of music and similarly sportspeople on the basis that they were very important in their sport (as opposed to the whole of sport). I think to do otherwise would impose too high a bar and make comparisons difficult - how do you compare heavy metal musicians and opera singers, swimmers and basketballers, etc?Neljack (talk) 06:36, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Question is Hanneman less notable than an Indian playback singer from the 70's? A folk singer from the 60s? An album cover designer? An NFL announcer? A former conductor for the London Symphony Orchestra? Those were all posted RD noms from April? I'm pretty sure a metal guitarist can be added to that last. Come on. --IP98 (talk) 10:13, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Is your list of comparisons intended seriously? Yes, this guy is less notable that any of those examples of people we have posted. Formerip (talk) 17:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Absolutely it is. Does every conductor of the London Symphony Orchestra get a pass, but every lead guitar player from the big four of thrash get a forget it? Really? --IP98 (talk) 21:21, 3 May 2013 (UTC) I can't give you an answer to the general question, but on the specifics, Colin Davis seems to have been generally considered one of the people most accomplished in waving a stick at a room full of musicians of his generation. Jeff Hanneman appears to have been generally considered part of the rhythm section in a band nowhere near as good as Anthrax. A prize to anyone who can name the "big eight" of thrash without looking at the Misplaced Pages article. Formerip (talk) 01:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Exodus, Testament, Kreator and ... Flotsam and Jetsam? That aside, one of The Andrews Sisters (a woman with no notability outside the group) was put up with no fuss, so opposition here seems a bit inconsistent. There's surely no argument that the band is notable (record sales alone should account for that without needing to get subjective), so if the precedent is to let that count for the members surely it applies here too? GRAPPLE X 02:16, 4 May 2013 (UTC) I changed to support. "Nowhere near as good as Anthrax" needs a source, and Hanneman was also one of the two major song writers for the band. --IP98 (talk) 11:08, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Support Notable (has his own article) and he, or his band, are probably known by a decent amount of people who use wikipedia so it's a no brainer for me CaptRik (talk) 12:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Strong Support I'm not a huge fan of Slayer, but the influence Jeff and his band have had (and continue to have) on music and metal music in particular is not obscure or irrelevant in any way, shape or form... Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 13:08, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Strong oppose FFS. Who? Not sufficiently notable, by a very long way. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:21, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Strong Oppose Picking up a guitar and playing it really fast does not make you internationally notable, no matter how many Americans may think so. 68.101.71.187 (talk) 13:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Geez... there are non-Americans supporting this and Americans opposing it. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC) What an incredibly stupid comment 68.101. The constant efforts to make everything about supposed pro-American bias is really annoying. --ThaddeusB (talk) 14:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - What; are we going to post the death of every member of bands that had an impact on a subgenre now? YuMaNuMa 14:04, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose Member of a band that has had its impact, but I don't see enough evidence of his impact. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose per Muboshgu. In the article on him I don't see any evidence of a significant impact, such as awards, Hall of Fame, or even comments from other figures in music (or even heavy metal music) about his notability. 331dot (talk) 14:46, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Support - We aren't talking about a full blurb but rather a small one line mention for RDs. I hate Slayer but someone who founded the highly influential band and was a key part of their success until his death deserves a mention. If it was someone who joined the band later on, or the band wasn't of significance importance of its genre, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Oh and its a GA to boot. Secret 19:01, 3 May 2013 (UTC) What evidence can you cite that Hannemann (or the band) was "highly influential"? There is currently little in the article to suggest that- and if the band was what was influential, any influence would need to have been at least partially due to him. 331dot (talk) 19:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC) The band is highly influential. A cursory glance at Slayer will reveal that . --IP98 (talk) 21:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Strong support Considering Slayer is a FA, as are at least 4 of their albums, with the rest of their discography and the Jeff Hanneman page all being GA's, I'd hardly question his/their notability. Robvanvee 10:00, 4 May 2013 (UTC) GAs, not GA's. Lugnuts 17:16, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Get's over it. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Comment I just revisited the article to see if there was any way I could justify changing to a support vote: something is better than nothing. But there is no awards section, no influence section. No comment by critics or fellow artists on his importance or his passing. Were such material added I could change my vote. μηδείς (talk) 19:17, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Ready now that 1:1 passes for consensus, and with the notability concerns discussed, I think it's time for admin attention. --IP98 (talk) 00:17, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Removing tag. Both the consensus and the update are weak. -- tariqabjotu 00:21, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Support. BBC News still has this as their top entertainment story, which suggests adequate international notability, particularly in the absence of competing RD items. Agree with Medeis that the update could be improved. Espresso Addict (talk) 10:09, 5 May 2013 (UTC) Weak Support. I don't listen to much music, but I've at least heard of Slayer even if I have never heard their music. The death of a founding member of a popular band seems reasonably fitting ITN. Douglas Whitaker (talk) 16:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Ready again. Two more supports since last time, and the article has been expanded. --IP98 (talk) 20:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC) So... we know he died in a Los Angeles hospital and the Westboro Baptist Church is going to picket his funeral. Yeah... -- tariqabjotu 20:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose, not quite significant enough. Also, removed the ready because someone is removing people that are voting oppose. I know I did yesterday and it's now gone. We can't keep lowering the death criterion over and over and putting any old person in and moving to more and more specific genres of music. If he was the most significant metal guitarist period, then okay. If you have to add in five modifiers to make that true, no. Wizardman 15:59, 7 May 2013 (UTC) No one is "removing people that are voting oppose"; it was an edit conflict, which was easily guessable and verifiable provided you weren't new to Misplaced Pages. I've personally observed the edit conflict feature having issues recently, sometimes either neglecting to notify an editor that a conflict has occurred or notifying the editor of the conflict but erroneously telling him/her that there was no difference between two versions that conflict. -- tariqabjotu 18:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Sentence of Kenneth Bae No consensus to post. Spencer 02:51, 5 May 2013 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Article: Kenneth Bae (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ North Korea sentenced American citizen Kenneth Bae to 15 years of hard labor amid tensions with the United States. (Post) News source(s): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22377678 Credits: Nominated by Secret (talk · give credit) Nominator's comments: Key turning point in North Korea - United States relations, top story in many major news websites including BBC, CNN and New York Times, among others. Also slow news week for the most part. Secret 18:19, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose On its own the story is not notable enough, and in truth this seems to be part of a ploy, as was the earlier saber-rattling this year, to get sanctions lifted. μηδείς (talk) 18:38, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose interesting, but not sure this is actually ITN-worthy. Many people get seemingly unfair criminal sentences at the hands of regimes determined to prove a point, this looks like one of them. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:46, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Comment It seems like yet-another incremental update in the DPRK-USA spite, but I would consider supporting if they are sending Jimmy Carter in to try and negotiate a deal, as some sources earlier claimed (later disputed by the man himself.) --hydrox (talk) 19:16, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose simply not notable enough in the grand scheme of things. Unlikley to have the same impact as the 2009 incident, (Random: I've seen Laura Ling and my mother knows her sister-in-law) so don't expect much. (Also - I think Carter is a bit too frail to do anything like that!) --85.210.102.96 (talk) 19:52, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Question should we wait until he is murdered in prison? That seems to be the threshold for posting a full blurb for an item convict which our crystal ball tells us will be an incremental update in the long running history of antagonism between two nuclear armed states. --IP98 (talk) 21:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. North Korea does this kind of thing every now and then to try to gain concessions, not likely to result in any change in relations, good or bad. 331dot (talk) 02:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Sarabjit Singh Article: Sarabjit Singh (talk · history · tag) Recent deaths nomination Blurb:  Condemned Indian national Sarabjit Singh dies from an attack after 22 years imprisonment in Pakistan (Post) News source(s): http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/05/02/sarabjit-singh-dies-pakistan-idINDEE94101R20130502 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/10032281/Indian-spy-dies-after-attack-in-Pakistan-prison.html http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/02/what-they-said-indian-national-sarabjit-singh-dies-in-pakistan/ Credits: Nominated by Suyogaerospace (talk · give credit) Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Misplaced Pages article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD. --Suyog 13:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Is this an RD nomination? We need some news sources. 331dot (talk) 14:12, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Yes its RD as well as in news nomination. I have added News sources If something is wrong please let me know this is my first nomination, I am new to it. Thank you --Suyog 16:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Support. This isn't any ordinary death of someone in prison, but a death of someone with a lot of controversy around them in two countries. Getting some coverage outside those nations as well. 331dot (talk) 16:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Support RD, but woudl also consider a full blurb if one was proposed. In this case, the death itself is a big deal (i.e. subject's existing notability is not only reason for posting), which is why I would consider a full blurb. --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 17:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Support ITN, this case had massive implications between Pakistan and India, and his death/murder is likely to strain further relations between the two countries. This doesn't qualify for recent deaths as it wasn't a natural death and it was still on the news that case. Secret 18:03, 2 May 2013 (UTC) I don't think it has to be a natural death to be included in recent deaths. 331dot (talk) 02:57, 3 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose RD neutral as for full blurb--this is the sort of death that requires a blurb since the person himself is not inherently notable. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Support inherently notable to well over a billion people. Ignorance of the notability of the subject should not be a reason for opposing posting at RD. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:43, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Is Singh a sitting head of state or highly influential in his field? No. Hence he fails RD. I said nothing about him failing a full ITN nomination with a blurb, and others above have agreed with me. Raising accusations of ignorance seems beside the point. μηδείς (talk) 18:55, 2 May 2013 (UTC) I agree he doesn't meet RD, because the case is much more important than the person, and Medeis you know RD isn't used for sitting head of states", retired maybe, but they get full blurbs. Secret 19:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Did I say sitting? So spank me. μηδείς (talk) 19:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Well, clearly others think otherwise. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:49, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Support his death seems to be generating significant in-depth press prominently placed in many reliable sources of news. I'd be fine with either RD or blurb, given the unusual nature and highly sensitive manner of his death. --Jayron32 19:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Blurb I have posted what seems like a reasonable blurb. μηδείς (talk) 19:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC) I would respectfully avoid the use of "condemned" without clarification, do you mean death row? Also "dies from an attack" is really grammatically weak, perhaps "dies after being attacked in prison" (which is more active and more accurate?). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:53, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Support definitly for itn.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Support full blurb given impact on India-Pakistan relations. Neljack (talk) 21:27, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Ready for ITN as of this edit. μηδείς (talk) 21:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Strong oppose blurb unless there are accompanying protests or some actual diplomatic repercussions. --IP98 (talk) 21:34, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Posted as a blurb. -- tariqabjotu 23:10, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Stuart Hall Snow close (no consensus to post). Spencer 22:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC) The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Article: Stuart Hall (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ British broadcaster Stuart Hall pleads guilty to charges of indecent assault of children. (Post) News source(s): BBC Credits: Nominated by LukeSurl (talk · give credit) Nominator's comments: First conviction of a living 'celebrity' in connection to Operation Yewtree (the police investigation triggered by the Jimmy Savile sexual abuse scandal). Article has a section on the prosecution. --LukeSurl 09:47, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Quick comment many, many sources have said this is not in relation to Yewtree by the way... The Rambling Man (talk) 09:50, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Striked above. LukeSurl 10:00, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose Horrific, but only in the news because of his notability. We would have to start a "Recently Charged" ticker (and given Lindsay Lohan a sticky). --IP98 (talk) 10:27, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. Whilst a huge deal for those involved, this has no impact whatsoever beyond those people. Individual criminal case involving a minor celebrity. Tabloid fodder. Modest Genius 11:09, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. Horrific as stated, but not with a worldwide impact. 331dot (talk) 11:13, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. Agree with IP98. Not internationally significant by any means. (But when and for how long did Savile appear on ITN?) Martinevans123 (talk) 11:20, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Looking at the article's talkpage, I don't think Savile ever was listed on ITN. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Thanks for checking, TRM. If so, then I don't see how Hall deserves a place. And he has yet to be sentenced (if that makes any difference). Martinevans123 (talk) 12:44, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - no significance anywhere outside UK. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:56, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose - Not that much significance inside the UK, to be honest. I still have very little idea who this man is. But the reason we didn't post the Savile story was that no charges were brought: the creepy old bastard was dead before the claims emerged. (At least, before they emerged in the press in their current form.) So that's very much apples and oranges. The reason the Hall story is being reported prominently is that it's a specific outcropping of a large and inchoate story about the criminal sexual proclivities of media personalities of past decades. (There's another story in the press today - charges, not conviction - which is also part of the same business.) AlexTiefling (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Yes, and not even connected with Operation Yewtree. Apparently. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose (and suggest this is closed) - Hall is notable to many in the UK, but I would imagine nearly no-one outside. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:47, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose I can't add any reason that hasn't already been stated.--85.210.102.96 (talk) 19:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Strong Oppose People outside the UK would had said "Who is he?" can't see how he is that significant enough to do so. Donnie Park (talk) 22:30, 2 May 2013 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. May 1 Portal:Current events/2013 May 1 May 1, 2013 (2013-05-01) (Wednesday) edit history watch Armed conflicts and attacks South Thailand insurgency: Insurgents kill six people, including a two-year-old boy, in a deadly shooting in Pattani, Thailand. (ABC News) Boston Marathon bombing: Boston Police state that three more individuals are implicated and arrested. (CNN) A report states that Dzhokhar has told detectives he was motivated by wanting to defend Islam because of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. (NBC) Insurgency in the North Caucasus: A bomb detonates in a busy shopping center in Makhachkala, Dagestan, Russia, killing 3 and injuring 2 others. (Ria Novosti) Iraqi insurgency (post-U.S. withdrawal): Multiple bomb attacks across Iraq kill at least 15 people. (The Daily Star) Business and economy T-Mobile US debuts on the New York Stock Exchange with the ticker symbol TMUS. (Reuters) Disasters and accidents Flash floods leave 16 people dead and 3 others missing in Saudi Arabia, with authorities urging citizens to avoid low-lying wadis. At least two others were killed in neighboring Oman in some of the heaviest rainfall in more than 25 years. (Al Arabiya) Heavy rain and a whirlwind sweeps over eights districts and towns in Lào Cai Province, northern Vietnam, destroying 52 houses and 2 schools, ripping roofs off of 1600 houses, and damaging crops of local people. (Talkvietnam) International relations The UN Human Rights Office says that the force-feeding of hunger-strikers at the U.S. Guantánamo Bay Prison is a violation of international law. (AFP via France24) Several British Overseas Territories, including Bermuda and the Cayman Islands, sign agreements to share tax information with UK and other EU members. (BBC) Law and crime A May Day protest in Seattle, United States, escalates into violence, causing injuries to eight police officers and damage to storefront property. (Seattle Pi) (CNN) British Coronation Street star William Roache, the world's longest-serving soap actor, is arrested and charged with two counts of raping a 15-year-old girl in 1967. (TVNZ),(The Guardian) Seven Venezuelan legislators are injured as a fight breaks out between the Socialist Party and the opposition over the outcome of the last month's presidential election. (The Daily Beast) Science and technology In San Jose, California, IBM researchers release A Boy and His Atom, the smallest movie ever made, which was created by manipulating individual carbon monoxide molecules with a scanning tunneling microscope. (BBC) An international group of researchers announce in Nature the creation of a digital camera that can mimic the compound eyes of insects. (CNN) The Wyoming, United States discovery of a tiny prehistoric bird, Eocypselus rowei, may help explain the origins of hummingbirds. (Science World Report) World's smallest film Article: A Boy and His Atom (talk · history · tag) Blurb: ​ IBM announces the creation of the smallest ever film, made by manipulating individual molecules. (Post) News source(s): AP Credits: Updated and nominated by ThaddeusB (talk · give credit) Article updatedNominator's comments: There has been some interest in featuring more positive stories and/or more stories that would interest our readers but aren't front page news. In that spirit, I am offering this scientific research which I realize is not earth shattering stuff, but is pretty interesting and has been certified as a Guinness world record. ThaddeusB (talk) 02:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC) weak support per nom comment EdwardLane (talk) 07:26, 2 May 2013 (UTC) weak oppose, while kinda cool this is not a significant development in science or technology. As a world record it fits into the category of "records created to aid a publicity stunt" rather than something that has been contested for decades. --LukeSurl 08:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Take it to DYK. Perfect candidate for there but atom manipulation at this level is already a well-known techology. --Tone 08:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC)  Done :). And I thought ITN had some difficult-to-understand rules! LukeSurl 09:11, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Just to be clear, I would have taken this the DYK myself if (when) it was rejected by ITN. Thansk for savign me the effort though. --ThaddeusB-public (talk) 17:16, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Comment I would like to thank ThaddeusB for brining this to our attention. I won't comment on it's "ITN worthiness", but it is a very interesting piece of news, and a fun way to show off technology that's really beyond the grasp of many people (including myself). If anyone is interested, IBM has uploaded the video to Youtube, here. Cheers. --IP98 (talk) 10:31, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose. It's a neat piece of outreach, but hardly a major breakthrough. Moving individual atoms around like this has been done for many years. Modest Genius 10:43, 2 May 2013 (UTC) This has been accepted on DYK (I think, DYK's bureaucracy is kafkaesque). --LukeSurl 11:08, 2 May 2013 (UTC) It still has to be passed and moved to the prep area, then to queue.. I reviewed it after you posted here btw :) Mohamed CJ (talk) 15:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Oppose IBM has too much money. Nergaal (talk) 19:51, 2 May 2013 (UTC) What does that have to do with anything? --IP98 (talk) 21:35, 2 May 2013 (UTC) References Nominators often include links to external websites and other references in discussions on this page. It is usually best to provide such links using the inline URL syntax rather than using <ref></ref> tags, because that keeps all the relevant information in the same place as the nomination without having to jump to this section, and facilitates the archiving process. For the times when <ref></ref> tags are being used, here are their contents: