Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:16, 18 May 2013

This template

This template has been set up as a result if the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Classical music starting 16 March 2013. It is intended for symphony orchestras but may also be used for smaller ensembles if necessary. --Kleinzach 03:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

If it's to be used for other ensembles, then a |type= parameter would be needed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:37, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to set this up. Classy work, as usual. One thought: I like the longer form, but I'm thinking--and I recognize the irony, since I brought it up in the first place--perhaps placing the former name field before the dates gives it too much prominence. I'd suggest putting the dates first, then the former name(s). Would it be possible/desirable to include dates with the former names? That might give something like "Bucharest Philharmonic (1886-1955)." I can see how that might get messy when the history is more complicated, but it also might be very handy for readers. Perhaps an option for the field? Drhoehl (talk) 20:44, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes; just put the dates in parentheses in that field, or use {{Timeline-event}} there. While there is no hard-and-fast rule, it's usual to put alternative names immediately after current names in infoboxes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:06, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

more parameters

I see many orchestras which switched names in history, orchestras which existed only for a certain time, orchestras merged. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:11, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I've added a |disbanded= parameter. Perhaps a |merged_into= or |successor= would be useful; with a corresponding |constituents= or |predecessor=? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:35, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

This new infobox looks promising, but should not replace infoboxes with additional, useful, parameters, such as those in City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, until it can handle similar detail (with better labels, of course). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:35, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Later name

The purpose of |later_name= is unclear. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

If different names for one orchestra, earliers names might be of interest, the current (later) name would be the article title, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Changes made without discussion/'Native name' field

I am opposed to any changes to the template made without discussion. These shouldn't be happening — as I have said here.

I'm also against using a 'native name' field. There was no support for this in the discussion leading up to the creation of the box. --Kleinzach 14:31, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I am for unrestricted changes, - I didn't make them, but why not use the advantage of a wiki? - I would first collect possible parameters and then decide what is not needed. Native name is needed, if you ask me, for example the orchestra you call Vienna Philharmonic here calls itself Wiener Philharmoniker, - I would like to see that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerda Arendt (talk • contribs) 14:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

See Vienna Philharmonic. It's the name of the article. --Kleinzach 14:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I know. Wiener Philharmoniker is the native name. - See more name examples also on the project talk. Can we please focus the discussion at one place? Here? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:53, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

The current infobox on that article has both English and German names. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the revert to a former state of the template, losing all improvements, I repeat what I said for Opera in a similar discussion: I suggest to collect possible parameters first, and then decide what is not needed. Most of them can be optional anyway. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:28, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

As pointed out many times before, optional fields are used. I've removed the 'native name' field until the editors have had a chance to discuss it. (So far no-one except you has supported it.) In the meantime please don't put it back. Kleinzach 17:28, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I also support it, obviously. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:42, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• I support to see the original name in cases where a translation is the article title, and a translation where the "native name" (strange word) is the title, and an indicator of the language, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:54, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you support the use of non-official translations? Can you clarify? Kleinzach 08:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Example: Nordwestdeutsche Philharmonie. I don't need a translation, but others may want one to understand North West German, - optional, of course. - I just went over all inclusions of {{infobox musical composition}} and found many parameters not filled,- don't be afraid, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you understand what non-official translation means? Do you want to invent these when they don't already exist? --Kleinzach 11:03, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

May be I don't understand. In the example, official or not, I don't invent that "Nordwestdeutsch" means "North West German" and "Philharmonie" can be translated to "Philharmonic" (and is translated like that in other orchestras), --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:14, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

There is no requirement for prior discussion; especially for a draft template. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:42, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Do I understand correctly that this "native name" field is to hold a Misplaced Pages editor's home-brew concoction rendering a foreign name in English? If so, put me on record as firmly opposing it. To the extent giving a translation is desirable, it should go in the text (in a sentence along the lines of "The orchestra's name can be roughly translated as The Philharmonic Orchestra of Lower Atlantis"), not in a box that by implication confers some sort of "official" status on it. That, of course, is a major objection many of us have to infoboxes in the first place: they tend to suggest black-and-white authority for information that is open to debate. I'll address the inevitable "but it's optional" rejoinder while I'm about it: "optional" fields of this sort are what the lawyers call an attractive nuisance, enticing those who are careless, misguided, or uninformed to engage in undesirable behavior. I also join in objecting to changes made without benefit of discussion. That way lies chaos, at the very least. Drhoehl (talk) 16:51, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I thought the idea was that the |name= is the same as the article name, and |native_name= was the official name in the native language, which is almost certainly the name of the article on the WP for the local native language. I don't see how this would be controversial. clearly if someone is using these parameters as a place to put invented translations, then that is an improper use of the parameters, but not a fault of the template. we could add a tracking category, along with the parameter, so its usage could be monitored. Frietjes (talk) 17:17, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

disbanded

why is |disbanded= a required field? are all orchestras suddenly disbanded? Frietjes (talk) 17:32, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Orchestras are sometimes disbanded, merged, reassembled, renamed, revert to their original name etc. etc. Most of these are unusual or unique cases, e.g. Philharmonia Orchestra or New York Philharmonic. Do we need to have fields for these special cases? This was discussed here. --Kleinzach 17:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I think the question is "required" or "optional", in this case, "optional", --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:46, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

That was inadvertent; the parameter should, of course, be optional. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:46, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Changes made without discussion/'Short name' field

Once again, there are changes being made on the fly without discussion. I have reverted. --Kleinzach 04:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Making changes "on the fly" is what Misplaced Pages is about. There is no requirement for you to pre=approve prior discussion. Your referral to me as "That editor' at it again!" in your canvassing edit summary is not acceptable. The |short_name= field is needed, as seen in this diff, to prevent polluting the |name= field with things which aren't part of the name. In the example edit given, the orchestra's name is "National Symphony Orchestra", not "National Symphony Orchestra (NSO)". There are multiple cases of such abbreviations being put in the name field, including many by you.

Furthermore in this edit and this one, you replaced another infobox which already has a separate parameter for the abbreviation. Your claim that you "haven't found one instance where this 'short name' field would be useful" is facile.

Infobox fields do not exist for you to to shoehorn into them arbitrary text. As with your futile removal of the native name fields, discussed above, you are creating unnecessary drama over a change which any neutral observer will recognise is reasonable. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:11, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I have been through more than a hundred orchestra articles and never found one that needed this field. Adding unnecessary fields increases the likelihood that the box will be misused with the addition of inappropriate and inaccurate information. --Kleinzach 14:16, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Use of this infobox

I made the comment above:

This new infobox looks promising, but should not replace infoboxes with additional, useful, parameters, such as those in City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, until it can handle similar detail (with better labels, of course).

There was no response to that, but I now see this infobox being used to replace others, in such a way that infobox content is lost.

For example this looses the music director; while this looses music director, pops conductor, assistant conductor, and founder; and this one discards past and present music directors (and the fact that it's USA based).

This is a disservice to our readers, and should stop. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:29, 18 May 2013 (UTC)