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This becoming STUPID!

I added list of districts and cities here with the purpose to IMPROVE article, not to start new revert war. The names are written in both, Albanian and Serbian, and the name order is that used by UNMIK. So, if somebody see problem with that, he should discuss that problem here. It must be noted that state of Serbia recognized UNMIK and accepted civil UNMIK rule over Kosovo, thus, I do not see reason for revert war here. Even when Milošević was in power Albanian was an official language in Kosovo. PANONIAN (talk) 03:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, about the revert war part, Panonian. People should learn to discuss more here. AS of the official language in Kosovo, I must remind you that during Milosevic everything was in Cyrillic alphabet in Kosovo, including ID's, labels on shops, buses, administration, everything. But that is a black part of the history, not worth comparing to. Regards, Ilir pz 11:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering about one thing today. What do you guys/girls think will happen with 1244 resolution, once (eventually) Montenegro gets recognized? Does it make sense to say that "now Serbia takes over what is left from Former Yugoslavia and the responsibilities of that resolution"? Seems like we might have to do major updating on those parts soon, where Serbia and Montenegro is mentioned as a successor of FRY, and Kosovo a de-jure part of it. Very curious how this evolves. Not that the Montenegro's independence affects Kosovo'spath to independence, but anyways it would be welcome. Ilir pz 11:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

It will not affect it in any sense as Kosovo is recognised as a province of Serbia in S&M constitution. Regards, --Asterion 12:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Let us wait and see :) So next will be "Serbia is a successor of FRY"? after Montengro is gone from that federation?? This resolution is getting funnier and funnier. Ilir pz 12:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

No, that is not the point. S&M is the same as FRY. Kosovo is not a province of S&M but a province of Serbia anyway. Regards, --Asterion 14:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point. As of now Kosovo is a territory under UN administration, whose status is still not defined anyways. That resolution is for a couple of months more. Regards, Ilir pz 14:22, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

This is weird, SCG can't be the successor of FRJ. It's the successor of SFRJ (legally) - a state cannot be a successor of itself. Are youy suggesting that the Republic of Holland (declared with the Hague Manifesto of 1581) is not the successof of the United Dutch Provinces that existed there since 1576? --HolyRomanEmperor 21:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me just correct a mistake there -- FRY = SCG, but FRY (and therefore also SCG) is *not* the successor to the SFRY. SCG had to reapply for UN membership; had it been recognised as the legal successor to the SFRY, it would have simply taken its seat. —Nightstallion (?) 21:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats right. Since one month I m traing to say that. But nobody dont wont to listen-- Hipi

You are confusing Nightstallion's words. Resolution 1244 is relevant to FRY, which is the same as saying SCG. Regards, --Asterion 18:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Archiving

I have moved the old entries to /Archive 8 because the page takes too long to load. --Asterion 10:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yes. You have removed my post at talk page beacose the fact I have putit in your talk page. Ther was no personal atack how you have wrotit at the comment during the deletio of the post in your talk page. This is another fact about wat I have sayed to you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ] (] • ])

Hipi, the copyvio text was removed before I moved the page. Besides, why are you adding text unrelated to the current discussion for? Please take some time to familiarise yourself with the copyright policy of Misplaced Pages too. I have already explained you this a few times but you insist on trolling around with my user page. Just to let you know that a lifting of your block was being considered but given your recent behaviour, I cannot see this happening at all. It is my fault for trying to be civilised with everyone. I should know better... Asterion 13:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Who is saing that is a copyvio (?) text, this is citat of a work. I diden uset that in the article. I have putit als source here for beter work and beacose the user Cernagora sayt to me that HRE is not serbian nationalist but he have only the serbian source. I dont know so gut english beacose that I dont work in the articel only in discussion side. But I know hat ther are some gut wikipedians and they are going to user this surce. (I know that you are not going to be that). You have sayed that I have maked personal atak at your talk page and deletet the my kritik for your work. Witch sentens is personal attack for you? Is this your civilised way to delet the post at your talk page and saying that is personal attack? I have no interes here for personal attack with nobody. I have experienc with that. Only if you present yourself als a hardliner of wikipedia Im going to give you a hard kritik. And wat are you doing, you are usenig your better english to diskrimined my work but that is not argument. You are not objetiv and that is not fair. Perhaps I can not do to much agains that but sombody is watching that, beacose I kow that from my work in sq:wikipedia. I dont let the new or the user witch dont know well albanian to be discrimedit. Even the user dont know albanian if he have facts I going to help him. Do you know way? -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs)

Well, in that case. Why don't you explain things, then? It is a copyright violation to reproduce texts from a book that is not in the public domain. By Misplaced Pages Fair Use policy, you are only allowed to quote sentences or short paragraphs. And yes, you have been harrassing me in my talk page with your silly comments that I am not really Spanish and that you and your friends are going to prove it. It is real sad that I had to get my talk page protected to stop your trolling. You could learn from User:Ilir pz and start to discuss things like a normal person. Goodbye. --Asterion 14:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, if I hert you. I have explent way I dont belevie that you are t Spanish. This is not personal attack, (this is my opinion about you and my experienc with Spanish peopel and your work here is maken my opinion, dont forget everybody who know spanish can say thate) I going to prufe that (my opinion). What is wrong with that. If you are a Spanish you dont need to be worit. I m Albanian and everybody can think what he wount, everybody can profe his opinion. -- Hipi

Well, feel free to check my Spanish wikipedia contributions if that satisfy your unhealthy curiosity. I accept your apologies. Regards, --Asterion 17:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

History of Kosovo

History of Kosovo In "Travels in European Turkey" (London, 1850): E. Spencer gives an account of the Illyrian Empire:

...The Illyrians founded an immense empire extending from Epirus ... to the Danube and the Black Sea and comprehending the whole of the maritime coast of Hungary to Venice and Triest, with Istria, Carnolia, Carinthia, Styria, and Friuli... History and tradition affords us many interesting details of the battles of the Illyrians with the ancient Greeks and the Romans... Napoleon was well versed in the history of these people when he flattered their national pride...(Vol. I, pp. 93-94)

As indicated by E. Spencer, the Illyrians fought, in fact, for a long time against the Romans, who eventually conquered the whole of Illyria in A.D. 9. Many Illyrian soldiers, who susbsequently served in the Roman army rose to high positions. Some became emperors and viceroys: Claudius II, Aurelian, Probus, Diocletian, Maximilian, Constantius, Valens, and Valentinian. Mention should also be made of Saint Jerome, one of the greatest scholars of his time. The Illyrians gave to Byzantium three of its greatest emperors: Constantine, who officially accepted Christianity; Justinius, who built Saint Sophia; and Justinianus, famous for his Code of Laws. The philologist Paul Kretschmer went so far as to maintain that the Illyrians actually founded Byzantium.

Proud of what they considered their heritage (see E. Spencer, Travels... I, p. 94), the South Slavs became eager to recreate ancient Illyria by forming a union among themselves.

Albania was at that time a domain of the Turkish Empire comprising four vilayets or provinces: Shkodra - which included the Dukagjini Plateau (Metohija), Monastir (presently Bitolja), Janina, and Shkup (Skopje), presently in Macedonia. This latter province was more readily called Kosova by the Turks in memory of the victory of a battle on the Plain of Kossovo, the "Campo dei Merli" of old Venetian maps. The capital of this province had at times been Priština.6

6. According to A. Boue, the "battles" that took place were not fought on the plain, but on its "plates-formes" at Gasimestan, "one and a half hours north of Pristina;" the name of Kossovo, he explained, was applied later to the Plain of Sitnica and the surrounding territory (A. Boue, op. cit., I, p. 142).

Owing to the efforts of the committee headed by A. Frasheri,7 80 delegates representing all four provinces convened at the city of Prizren, in the Vilayet of Shkup (Kosova) in June 1878, three days prior to the opening of the Congress of Berlin, whose purpose was to reconsider the decision reached by San Stefano's preliminary Peace Treaty. The assembly of these delegates was henceforth called The League of Prizren. Its task was to defend Albania's rights.

Kosova became thus for the Albanians the center of their resistance and they have ever since regarded this territory as a symbol of their struggle for independence.

7. An Albanian patriot of broad culture (1839-1894). His younger brother, Sami, wrote in Turkish as well as in Albanian. Greatly admired for his Universal Dictionary of History and Geography (a six-volume encyclopedia) and for other writings, he is considered in Turkey as one of its most prominent poets. Having fought for Albania’s rights, he spent five years in prison. The sec.ond of the three brothers, Naim, is the most popular South Albanian poet.

As soon as the Serbs occupied the ceded territories, the Albanians were asked to evacuate them. With respect to the Albanians inhabiting those areas, Mr. Gould, Consul of Great Britain in Belgrade, wrote to the Marquis of Salisbury, Secretary of the Foreign Office of Great Britain, on Nov. 26, 1878:

I hear that the Servian Government has behaved with great and unnecessary harshness, not to say cruelty, toward the Albanians in the recently ceded districts. If my information is correct, and I have every reason to believe it to be so, the peaceful and industrious inhabitants of over 100 Albanian villages in the Toplitza and Vranja Valley were ruthlessly driven forth from their homesteads by the Servians in the early part of this year. These wretched people have ever since been wandering about in a starving condition in the wild country beyond the Servian frontier. They have not been allowed to gather in their crops on their own lands, which were reaped by the Servian soldiery... I ... casually stated to his Excellency (Ristic) that these facts had come to my knowledge, and that should they be confirmed I felt certain Her Majesty's Government and the majority of the Great Powers would call the Servian Government to account, and insist upon strict justice being done to these unfortunate people, whose only crime was their belonging to an alien race and another creed...10

10. EM., Accounts and Papers (38); 1878-9; LXXIX 79, 574-575. Letter reproduced by Rizaj in op. cit. pp. 24 1-242.

As to the number of the Albanians inhabiting those territories, various statistics and extant documents give contradictory figures. According to a note of the administrative divisions dating from 1873, the district of the Sandjak of Niš had about 100 000 Albanians. As regards the number of refugees, the figures given by Prof. J. Cvijic for those who settled in Kosova is 30 000, that furnished by English documents, 100 000. According to Turkish sources, the number of the Albanians who were forced to leave the region amounted to 300 000.

On June 3, 1978, Rilindja (p.7), published a letter addressed by these miserable people (who were deprived of all means and many of whom were sick) to the European Powers requesting that at least a commission be set up to look into their serious problem.11

Leaving these helpless refugees to their sad fate, the Serbs colonized the region with astounding rapidity. Referring to the colonization of the area by the Serbs, V. Cubrilovic stated in his "Memorandum" (about which more will be told later) that "Toplica and Kosanica, once Albanian regions of ill-repute, gave Serbia the finest regiment in the wars of 1912-1918".

11. For the data concerning the Albanians of these territories, see E. PlIana, "Les raisons et Ia maniere de Ia migration des refugies albanais du territoire du Sandjak de Nish a Kosova (1877-1878)," Gjurmime Albanologjike IX 1979, Prishtine, 1980, pp. 129-156. Cf. also R. MarmullakuAlbania and the Albanians , London, 1975, p. 24 (does not contain details).

The Great Powers eventually left the Balkans in the hands of Austria and Russia. The influence of the latter, however, grew stronger as time went by.

In regard to Kosova, Russia sent priests to Serbian monasteries situated in the region exalting, together with the Orthodox faith, heroes and deeds pertaining to Serbian legends.18 They opened schools which were hotbeds of Slav propaganda. Clearly, her purpose was to colonize the province where the Serbs were but an insignificant minority.

The West knew little at that time about the Balkan states. In fact, the ignorance was such that some missionaries who went to Macedonia to support the Bulgarian cause confessed that formerly they had been ignorant of the fact that there were Bulgarians in the Peninsula; they had thought that only Greeks lived there. Practically nothing was known, of course, relative to the Albanians; those unfamiliar with the question could be told anything. Thus, when two Russian consuls in Kosova and Monastir were killed by Albanians (who acted in self-defense), these acts were described as being committed by 'Moslem fanatics'. The two propaganda agents were presented as martyrs; their funerals were grandiose. Since Christianity was equated with civilization and Islam with backwardness, the Christians were regarded as the allies of the Great Powers. Thus the Catholic Albanians who are animated by patriotic feelings were ignored by design. The Albanians were depicted merely as backward Moslems and as allies of the Turks.

18. "It seemed sheer folly to make a large and costly Serb theological school in a Moslem Albanian town and to import masters and students, when funds are so urgently needed to develop free Serb land" (ME. Durham,High Albania, London, 1909, p. 275). Even E. Noel-Buxton, of the Balkan Committee, whose attitude was pro-Slav, had to admit that "The spirit of chauvinism is but thinly veiled under the garb of churchmanship. Religion is degraded to the level of pretext for exciting national zeal" (Noel-Buxton, op. cit. p. 50).

Many books and articles were published by the South Slavs for the purpose of showing the ferocity of the Albanians, their backwardness, their despicable behavior, their lack of discipline, etc. Vladan Djordjevic, former Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Serbia, went even so far as to claim that until "as late as the 19th century", there had been Albanians with tail in their rear! Djordjevic even referred the reader to J.G. Von Hahn's scholarly work, Albanesische Studien, where, he asserted, he had found the information.19

19. V. Djordjevic,Les Albanais et les Grandes Puissances, 1913 p. 8. No information of this kind is contained in von Hahn’s work.

The purpose of all these writings was, of course, to draw a picture that gives to the non-specialist a very poor idea of the Albanians so that these, by dint of being despised by others may, in their innermost soul, start to despise themselves.20

20. According to Felix Adler, "The vice of vices is when we are held cheap by others sod then in our innermost soul start to think cheaply of ourselves." Protic, Gopcevic, Zupanic, Tomic, Djordjevic are some of the Slav authors who criticized the Albanians in a particularly uncivil way. Many others may be cited.

To be sure, there are established scholars - be they geographers, historians, anthropologists, or serious travelers and explorers - who have expressed opinions of a very different kind: H.N. Brailsford went even so far as to maintain that "from Byron's day downward it would be hard to find a Western European who has learned to know the Albanians without admiring them" (The New Republic, March 1, 1919). In fact those who had nice words on behalf of the Albanians were so numerous that the Serb S. Protic (Balkanicus) considered the tendency to praise the Albanians as highly ethical individuals and to describe them as "unusually gifted", to have become a fashion.21

21. 5. Protic,Das Albanesische Problem und die Beziehungen zwischen Oestereich- Ungarn, Leipzig, 1913, p. 19.

The fact remains, however, that the latter writings were not accessible to many. The influential French daily Le Temps, published merely articles favoring the Slavs and Greeks, for France was then Russia's ally.22

22. "Le journal parisien Le Temps avait mis ses colonnes a Ia disposition de ces detracteurs comme il les avait ouvertes pour les Grecs.. .," — "The Parisian daily Le Temps was at the disposal of these calumniators as it was also at the disposal of the Greeks (Lumo Skendo, Albanais et Slaves, Lausanne, 1919, p. 3).

In order to achieve national unity with a delimited territory, the League had requested the Porte, in July 1878, to turn Albania into one vilayet. The request had not been granted. As a consequence, the Albanians, under their gallant leader Isa Boletini, a native of Kosova, openly took a stand against the Turks. All their activities were centered in the Kosova region, which became the cradle of their national struggle and thus acquired a special meaning for them.23

In 1912, when the Albanians seized Shkup (Skopje) and were about to enter Monastir (Bitolja), the Turks called a truce and granted them autonomy uniting the vilayets of Shkodra, Janina, Kosova, and part of Monastir. As a result of this Albanian victory, the government of the chauvinistic Young Turks Party was overthrown. The weakness of Turkey became thus evident.

The Albanians had administered a heavy blow to the Turks and rightly hoped for approval and sympathy, for, as Lord Goschen had rightly pointed out back in 1880, if the Turks lost Albania, they would lose their cause in Europe. Instead, the Albanian victory triggered the Balkan wars, the purpose of which was the annexation of Albanian-inhabited territories that were under Turkish rule.

At that time, Montenegro had been free from Ottoman rule for over forty years; Serbia and Greece for over eighty. These states, being independent, had their regular armies. When attacked on all sides (by the Greeks, the Montenegrins, and, of course, by the Serbs, who entered Kosova), the Albanians, aware of the great danger, hastened to raise their flag and declared their neutrality.

23. SeeR. Marmullaku Albania and the Albanians, Hurst and Co., London, 1975, pp. 23-24.

The atrocities perpetrated by the Serbo-Montenegrins during the Balkan wars on the Albanian population were acknowledged by the Serbian socialist Dimitrije Tucovic (1881-1914) in his book Srbija i Albanija (published in 1946):

The bourgeois clamored for a merciless extermination and the army executed the orders. The Albanian villages, from which the people had made a timely flight, were burned down. There were at the same time barbaric crematoria in which hundreds of women and children were burned alive...24

24. Cited by R. Marmullaku, op. cit., p. 137.

Brutalities committed by the Serbo-Montenegrins are also described in the Carnegie report. They may be best summed up in two short paragraphs taken from Mary Edith Durham's Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle (1920):

No Turks ever treated Armenians worse than did the two Serb peoples treat the Albanians in the name of the Holy Orthodox Church (p.235).25

25. Cf. also Aubrey Herbert, M.P.: "Very little was known about Albania. The general opinion was that the Albanians were another branch of the Armenian family, and indeed, as far as massacres were concerned, this was most understandable . . ." (A. Herbert, Ben Kenilim,

London, 1924, P. 24). According to ME. Durham, the slaughters of the Armenians were nothing compared to those of the Albanians: "The massacres of Adana and the resultant misery pale before the scarlet horrors committed wholesale in cold blood by the so-called followers of Christ" (Durham, Struggle for Scutari, London, 1914, p. 303).

About these slaughters see 1. Albaniens Golgotha, Anklageacten gegen die Vernichter des Albanervolkes, gesammelt und herausgegeben von L. Freundlich, Vienna, 1913. — 2. Enquete dans les Balkans, Rapport de Ia Commission d’enquete de Ia Dotation Carnegie pour Ia Paix internationale, Paris, 1914.

As for the Balkan Slav and his vaunted Christianity, it seems to me all civilization should rise and restrain him from further brutality (p.238).26

26. What surprised ME. Durham quite specially was the religious fanaticism of the Serbs:

"It was not astonishing that the Serbs hated Islam, but that they should fiercely hate every other Christian church, I had not expected. The Catholic was hated the most." According to Durham, the Moslem was to the Serbs "a lesser evil than the Catholic," (Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle, London, 1920, p. 52). "The hatred of the Serb Orthodox for the Catholics was shown in 1913 in the Balkan war, when the Montenegrin troops, whose object was said to be to liberate Christians, fell upon the little church of Mazreku, trampled the Host underfoot, dressed up in the priestly vestments, danced about, and amused themselves by cutting noses from images of the saints and firing bullets into the crufix" (Some Tribal Origins ... p. 28).

In 1913, a number of soldiers led by a bandit clad as an Orthodox priest stripped and bayonetted to death Luigj Palici, an Albanian Franciscan from Gjakova, because he refused to cross himself in the Orthodox manner. "Austria intervened sharply. Had she not done so, in the words of a Catholic refugee, there would not have been a Catholic left" (E.C. Helmreich, The Diplomacy of the Balkan Wars, Harvard U.P., 1938, p. 317).

In 1919, a treaty concerning minorities was signed at Saint-Germain-en- Laye whereby the Yugoslav Government pledged to protect all citizens without discrimination as to race, nationality, and creed. Yet the persecutions against the Catholic Kosovars continued. Mother Teresa’s father, a native of Shkup (Skopje), and a noted Albanian patriot, was poisoned by the Serbs, as reported by his son Lazer Bojaxhiu in an interview published in Gente (Dec. 1979 andJan. 1980). Mother Teresa’s family was obliged to move to Tirana, where her mother and sister died (the former in 1974; the latter in 1976).

In 1929, was executed Father Shtjefen Gjecovi, a Franciscan, greatly respected by all the Albanians for his erudition and his righteousness. As a result, on May 5, 1930, three Catholic priests, obliged to leave the region, addressed the "League of Nations" a memorandum concerning the tragic plight of the Albanians in Yugoslavia (see H. Kokalari, Kosova, Rome, 1962, p. 165).

It should be reiterated that the unbelievable massacres were in no way committed as a result of a struggle between Christians and Moslems, as it was at that time believed by Gladstone and stressed in his speeches.27 They were solely motivated by the desire to decimate the Albanian race. Not only Kosova was coveted, but all of North Albania

27. Cf. E. Noel-Buxton: "Mr. Gladstone said, the Christian, who retained his faith at the price of slavery, when by recanting he could obtain every favour, is entitled to the name of martyr and to him Europe owes the gratitude" (op. cit., p. 27).— That the conversions of the Albanians would be taken as a pretext to expand territory was already pointed out by A. Boue who was for the freedom of all nations and had little respect for those who "for sheer purposes of invasion consider themselves chosen by God to exterminate the Moslems and make people happy." (". . . chez ceux, qui s’intitulent, par pure politique d’envahissement, les elus du Tres-Haut pour l’extermination des Musulmans et le bonheur du genre humain," Boue, Recueil d’itineraires dans Ia Torquie dEurope, 1854, I, "Avant-Propos."

During World War I, Albania's neutrality was not respected and mass massacres continued.

At the turn of the century, the reports of the Ohio journalist J.A.Mac Cahan concerning the Bulgarian uprising, had shocked the West; as known, Russia used these accounts as a pretext to march against the Turks. By contrast, the Albanian cause did not benefit from the Carnegie report, nor by the frequent and moving declarations of philanthropists and journalists who, like M.E. Durham, were eyewitnesses to mass massacres of women and children, simply because it was not in the interest of the Great Powers to take Albania's defense.28

28. No study is available on ME. Durham, except for that of Sh. Shaqiri, "ME. Durham dhe Shqiptar&,"Nentori, Oct. 1981, pp. 149-164. A talented painter and writer,a good historian and an excellent anthropologist (her diaries and other papers are available at the "Royal Anthropological Institute of Gr. Br. and Ireland," London, of which she was a member and to whose journal, Man, she contributed many articles), she also worked as a volunteer in Montenegrin hospitals as well as for the "Macedonia Relief Fund." Her first book was devoted to the Serbs (Through the Land of the Serbs, London, 1904). But, as pointed out by Aubrey Herbert, it was only their revolting cruelty that turned her affection into dislike" (A. Herbert, Ben Kendim , p. 220). Her later attitude toward the Serbo-Montenegrins is conveyed by a passage contained in Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle: "On arriving in London I packed up the Gold Medal given me by King Nikola and returned it to him stating that I had often expressed surprise at persons, who accepted decorations from Abdul Hamid, and that now I knew that he and his subjects were even more cruel than the Turk, I would not keep his blood-stained medal any longer. I communicated this to the English and Austrian press. The order of Saint Sava given me by King Petar of Serbia, I decided to keep a little longer till some pecularly flagrant case" (p. 25).

The well-known Swiss geographer H. Hauser, rightly pointed out that the principle of nationality, like all other principles, cannot be applied in a strict and equitable manner given the fact that most places constitute, with respect to the population inhabiting them, a mosaic.29

29. H. Hauser, "Le principe des nationalites," (30-page pamphlet, reprint fromRevuepolitique internationale, March-April, 1916). See also A. van Gennep,Traite des nationalites, 1922, p. 24.

In 1878, Lord Goschen and Lord Fitzmaurice had been in favor of a large Albania comprising the Albanian-inhabited territories of the four vilayets.30 But, at the Congress of Berlin it was decided -as already pointed out - that territories indisputably Albanian be handed over to Montenegro and to Serbia. Places connected with Albanian history and national pride, like Janina, Arta, Preveza, were allotted to the Greeks, who within a relatively short period of time were to exterminate the overwhelming Albanian population inhabiting them. No system of guarantees was applied. Albanians, numbering hundreds of thousands were to be forcibly sent to Turkey.

The manner in which Albanian territories were ceded to neighboring states clearly indicates how arbitrary decisions that make history may be. And one cannot but agree with Mircea Eliade (The Myth of the Eternal Return), who, with respect to the theory that valorizes historical events, to which the 19th century attached so much importance, pertinently remarked that such a theory could have been established only by thinkers who know nothing about injustices and miseries caused by history.

30. A. Herbert, op. cit., p. 216 and M.E. Durham, Twenty-Years p. 83.

Albanian population lived, remained outside the borders assigned to her.31 As Lord Fitzsimmons rightly remarked, "Albania was to start her career as a state mutilated from her birth". Indeed, as a nation humiliated in her pride, she had no place among her sister nations. She was doomed to poverty, bitterness, and complete isolation.

In regard to Kosova, a territory where Albanians displayed their most important activities for the independence of their nation and a region which, as some scholars contend, is the cradle of the Albanian people, the principles of ethnicity and self determination were not observed. Nor had they been taken into account when districts indisputably Albanian had been allotted to Montenegro and Serbia by the Treaty of Berlin. At that time, the principle of history had been ignored as well.

31. The tragic fate of many of these Albanians, who remained outside the borders assigned to the state of Albania, was to populate Asia Minor. As indicated (p. 10), the guarantees stipulated by the Treaty of Berlin were not honored by Serbia. Likewise, over 300,000 Albanians inhabiting the regions ceded to Greece were expelled by the Greek Government and obliged to settle in Turkey as a result of an exchange treaty of the Turkish and the Greek Governments (see, among others, A.A. Pallis, "The exchange of populations in the Balkans," Nineteenth Century, March, 1925, pp. 376-387). Pallis begins his article by saying that ‘the exchanges of populations, as a method of settling the problems of minorities, has been condemned in many quarters as a barbarous and dangerous innovation in internal politics." The Greek delegate at the Lausanne Conference had, in fact, declared that ‘Greece agrees that the compulsory exchanges shall not be applicable to her Moslem subjects of Albanian origin." However, the Greeks declared the Moslems of Tchameria as being "merely Albanophones," but in reality Greeks, and on this basis forced them to emigrate (Pallis art. cit.). Pallis argued that they emigrated of their own accord and that they were pleased in Turkey. This, however, is not the opinion of Ruth Pennington who returned to England in 1927 after ten months of work with the immigrants, ‘In Turkey the are 300,000 Albanian-speaking immigrants. Of these at least 10% would willingly shift their quarters and move again seeking for better land, to rejoin cousins and friends, who have already moved. Turkey does not wish for any further depopulation, but in spite of official prohibition, for the next 10 to 20 years there will be a constant leakage . . ." (Near East and India, Sept. 15, 1927, p. 333).

Although in 1913, the population of the south Albanian region ceded to Greece was over 90% Albanian, no Albanian schools or newspapers were ever allowed. This population has been almost extirpated on account of the harsh treatment to which it was subjected.

When, following World War I, the Dalmatian question was discussed, the fact that the West Adriatic coast had previously belonged to the Venetians, Austrians, Hungarians, and - in parts - to the Turks, and that, moreover, Slav colonization of the Coast was a relatively recent event in history (for, although the Slavs had settled in some parts of the Coast already in the 7th century, colonization was still going on as late as the beginning of the 20th century),32 did not have an adverse effect relating to the claims of the South Slavs. According to M.R. Vesnic, ...except for historical arguments... no present day consideration would authorize Italy to spell out such pretentions. Economically, geographically, and from the point of view of morale, these shores are inseparable from the hinterland which is Yugoslavia.33

32. Austria supported the Slavs against the Italians. Cf. M.E. Durham: "The Slavizing process in Dalmatia visibly progressed until the German-Austrians began to realize that they were warming a viper and feel nervous" (Twenty Years p. 13); cC. also U. Biscottini, Sull italianita della Dalmazia, 1930, p. 55.

33. MR. Vesnic, Les aspirations nationales de Ia Serbie (no date) p. 16.

Thus, disregarding historical considerations, Yugoslavia was allotted territories that were vast beyond her wildest dreams: to her devolved the beautiful Dalmatian Coast, where the Slavs had not ruled before, except for brief periods of time (a claim contested by the Hungarians) on some portions of it; to her was ceded Macedonia where the Serb population was insignificant and to which the Serbs had no claims before 1885;34 to her was allotted the Vojvodina (Banat) where a certain number of Serbs had been hospitably allowed to settle in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. The newly created state of Yugoslavia also retained territories which, regardless of the principles of ethnicity and self-determination had been previously granted to Serbia and Montenegro by the Treaty of Berlin and forcibly annexed by them.

34. In 1880, the French consul in Scutari, when describing Macedonia in an "Aperiu geographique" of Albania, prepared by him for the French Government, did not even mention the Serbs: ‘La Macedonie est en effet partagee entre les Albanais, les Grecs, les KutzoValaques et les Bulgares," — Macedonia is divided between Albanians, Greeks, Vlachs, and Bulgarians," (unpublished document contained in Albanie, Dossier I, "Archives de la Defense," Chateau de Vincennes, Paris). Cf. also M.E. Durham, The Serajevo Crime (London, 1925): "When I was living in Ochrida in the winter of 1903-4, a Serb schoolmaster had but just arrived. The largest school in town was the Bulgar one. The Greeks made a bad second. In spite of all his efforts, the Serb only succeeded in scraping up about 50 persons including his own family, the Greek priest and myself, to celebrate Saint Sava’s day. The majority were poor school children picked up in the town. In those days anyone who said that the Serbs would one day own Ochrida would have been thought insane" (p. 27). II ‘Dr. Milovanovich admitted in 1898 that the Serbs did not begin to think about Macedonia till 1885" (E. Noel-Buxton, Balkan Problems and European Peace, London, 1919, P. 27). /1 In regard to Macedonia, A. van Gennep, citing the Carnegie Report, criticized the Serb scholars Belic and Cvijic, attributing no scientific value to their research, because their sole purpose, according to the Carnegie report, was "to support the political claims of Serbia" (Van Gennep, Traitet� &s nationalites, Paris, ed. Payot, 1922, P. 202).

Faust, when translating the New Testament into his mother tongue, rendered with "action" the meaning of "logos", thus writing: "at the beginning was action".35 As prototype of modern man, Faust did not believe in the fascination and power of the word, as traditional doctrines do. Since then, however, sociologists and anthropologists, especially Frazer, have pointed out the magic that not merely traditional doctrines, but also the so-called primitive peoples attach to certain words and names, the use they make of them in myths, and how these myths affect them. In his turn, Freud has rightly remarked that the primitive mind is contained in all of us. We are impressed by words. Indeed, the suggestive power emanating from some particular words and names that affect our unconscious, especially when used in myths, surpasses action. More exactly, words may become dynamic symbols; they automatically generate action owing to the very magic contained in them.

In fact, Old Serbia acquired for the Serbs a magic power similar to that contained in Illyria.

a. It was asserted that Stara Srbija was the cradle of the Nemanjis, the Serbian kings. Special emphasis, in this regard, was laid on the Glorious Empire of Stefan Dušan.

b. Of foremost importance was considered the Battle of 1389 against the Turks on the Field of Kosova. It was somehow implied in various writings that Czar Dušan's Empire was sacrificed on that battle which was said to have been fought by the Serbs alone to protect Europe.

c. The Serbs who wanted to prove that the Albanian-inhabited region had formerly been ethnically Serb, underscored and proclaimed widely what it became known as the Serbian Exodus or the Emigration of the Serbs to Hungary. It was stressed that the Serbs, as a result of the Austro-Turkish wars of 1690 and 1735, had been obliged to evacuate the region and emigrate to Hungary under the leadership of their bishop, Arsenije III Crnojevic. And that, subsequently, the land, once vacant, had been colonized by the ferocious Albanians assisted by the Turks. The Albanians inhabiting Kosova were thus considered as recent settlers who had no right to be there.

These important issues which played a paramount role in the delimitation of the Albanian borders shall be discussed in PartII.

35. MR. Vesnic, Les aspirations nationales de Ia Serbie (no date) p. 16. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs)

Hipi can you please share the link where you found the info, so we can check if sources are reliable and verifiable. Thanks for the info. (Asterion, thanks for restoring the text, that was removed by someone) greetings, Ilir pz 20:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyone out there?

Where is everyone? I thought all new changes would be discussed beforehand as a matter of respect? (This also goes for unsigned edits, Hipi) --Asterion 20:08, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well considering a lot of us are in school/university at the moment...we don't have much time to contribute, only revert ocassionally:P. C-c-c-c 21:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Reverting is not to do if you dont have much time to contribute. Instead discuss a little, that helps more. Asterion, I am a bit busy with school, for another 2-3 days, then will dedicate more time here. ilir_pz 21:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I understand. What is the story with the map now? Have I missed anything?!? Asterion 21:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, Ilir, don't take this personal, but I've made a few changes to the article.

Actually, just one - the map. Kosovo is defined as autonomous province within former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro, thats in the article. So, now we have a map that points that out. --serbiana - talk 21:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Boris not even b92 has that map that you put there. Do not start revert wars for no reason. I proposed a map for those who like maps, but none liked the idea. ilir_pz 22:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. OK, Boris, you may have a point but I am afraid this is going to take things back to square one. Is it worth it? I have serious doubts indeed. Asterion 21:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair warning

Revert activity at this page has been flagged at WP:AN, and as it's now reached the point where a user's first edit (I use the term loosely, I suspect) was a revert here. Revert changes if you must, but note that doing so repeatedly, without regard to talk page discussion, or in egregiously suspicious circumstances, may be regarded as disruption. Alai 23:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. This page was stable for some time, and editors from both sides achieved a consensus and were rationally editing, until recently when someone started changing maps, from some IP in Canada, some suspicious Special:Contributions/SerbianMafia account etc. I would appreciate some attention by any admin here in such cases. ilir_pz 23:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

• Please stop vandalizing this article, it's gone far enough. --Krytan 01:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you fully. How about you help by stopping yourself?!ilir_pz 01:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Good to hear. You also broke the 3RR rule, lawl. --Krytan 01:12, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

You're trying to push me toward that using your multiple usernames, right? Not difficult to guess.ilir_pz 01:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Multiple usernames? I don't understand. I don't have multiple usernames. Although I don't break wikipedia rules either, like somebody I know ;) I'll be doing some reporting after. Turns out you might not get banned today, maybe tomorrow? Cheers, --Krytan 01:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Good luck! ilir_pz 01:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is a invasion of sebian account in en:Misplaced Pages

Im waitting if any administrator is going to do something agains this invasion. Now Im going to sleep. Ilir ky invasion nuk mund të pritet me diskutime ko është më se e qartë. Po më dhimbset PANONIA dhe ti, në fund të fundit puna e ju dy do të dëmtohet nga ky invasion. --Hipi Zhdripi 01:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Please keep it in English, for the rest of the users to understand. There is no "invasion" of Serbian accounts. All the best, --Krytan 02:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Blocks on the basis of checkuser result

Given this, I've blocked several users involved in the recent spree of reverts. If there are additional undiscussed reverts, in either direction, either from editors who've repeatedly reverted before, or who "show up out of nowhere", I'm going to block for disruption without further warning. Let's see some discussion, and a ceasation of the sniping and tag-team reverts. Alai 02:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet thing

I will automatically revert any unsigned edits due to latest batch of sockpuppetry incidents. Asterion 07:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Naming convention

We agreed the name Kosova would not be used as not commonplace in English language. Therefore, the correct term to use in Misplaced Pages is Kosovo. Kosova is POV. Asterion 11:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The term Racak Massacre is POV. This is not even been used in the dedicated article, Racak incident. Asterion 11:56, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The addition of this text is POV and is not verifiable: In a number of cases, Albanian families were expelled from their apartments to make space for the refugees.

The victims have been executed by Serb forces, which were refusing to allow proper autopsy of the victims is simply not true as Helena Ranta and other forensic teams were immediately allowed.

After the Dayton Agreement in 1995, Albanians organized into the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), employing guerilla-style tactics against Serbian police forces. Yugoslav forces allegedly committed war crimes in Kosovo, although the Serbian government claims that the army was only going after suspected Albanian "terrorists". is not only POV but sarcastic. The previous text was a neutral alternative: After the Dayton Agreement in 1995, an armed movement called the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), employing guerilla-style tactics, took shape in western Kosovo. It was mainly composed of local youngsters, unemployed and farmers.

I would appreciate an explanation. Regards, Asterion 12:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the naming convention, as long as none adds the "metohija" part to the name, in return.

I do not agree with your questioning the cases of Albanian families being expelled to mkae space for the refugees from Krajina etc. I will find facts for that very soon. Also do not agree that ``ìt is not```true that the victims were executed by Serb forces in the Racak Massacre. That what happened there cannot be described in any other way but a massacre, civillians were shot from a close distance. The forensics did prove that.

The "neutral" alternative you provide to describe KLA is really funny. It makes it sound as if NO educated people were in such organization. I can tell you you are very mistaken. Hence that ridiculous statement is not neutral at all, whoever added it should have not speculated but instead read a bit more. ilir_pz 13:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

That sentence can come off (I did not write it, though I do not take it as offensive). My point was about the last sentence of the version replaced by Hipi. Also, the word massacre is semantically loaded and it is not used in the Racak incident article either. Asterion 17:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The first line of "Racak incident" says "The Racak incident (also called the Racak massacre or Racak operation)". What do you mean it is not used? ilir_pz 17:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Precisely the same than when I ask you to use Kosovo and not Kosova. This is not the article name, as it was deemed too biased. Asterion 18:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

List of presidents

If this section is to remain it should be accompnied by some explanatory information. To begin with, it should be noted that these 'presidents' of Kosovo are not and have never been internationally recognized. Rather, they were the inofficial representatives of the kosovo albanian population. Misplaced Pages should be used to convey facts, not to push a political agenda. So, although the 'presidents' were representatives of the majority of the people of Kosovo, they were, in fact, not the officially recognized as such.Osli73 13:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

So, if no one is opposed (and gives a reason why) I'll something on the pre 1999 presidents of Kosovo.Osli73 09:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure presidents from 1989 to 1999 should be added as presidents. During that time apartheid existed in Kosovo, so they were not legitimate presidents. Besides, they were not called presidents, but something like "the head of the committee" or something. The first time Kosovo had a president was after 1999, with Ibrahim Rugova being the first. ilir_pz 10:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

SCG nonexistant

I will make one thing clear. As 1244 does not say that Kosovo is formally a part of Serbia, I will not allow people to alter that in the preamble of Kosovo article. Call your senses, please. ilir_pz 22:09, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

However, it does say it is formally part of Former Yugoslavia, who's heir is, as of right now, Serbia:)))). Get over it Ilir, stop denying facts. C-c-c-c 22:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. ilir_pz 22:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you limiting your vocabulary to "whatever"? C-c-c-c 22:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Lol sorry Boris:P C-c-c-c 22:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

whatever. ilir_pz 00:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, Ilir. I think your feeling a little down. C-c-c-c 03:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

At least Montenegro is gone? :) --Krytan 03:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It is official finally. UNtil 1244 is changed and adapted to any new version, it does not belong here. ilir_pz 07:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Official status of Kosovo

In the article it states that Kosovo is "autonomous province within former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia under UN administration." As Yugoslavia changed its name to Serbia and Montenegro, shouldn't this also be stated in the article. In the case the union between Serbia and Montenegro is ended, shouldn't Kosovo, de jure, become a part of the Republic of Serbia?

What do you think? Osli73 07:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

No it shouldn't. You canno just derive one statement to the other, according to some "logic". ilir_pz 11:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Assuming the union between CG and Serbia ends, then The Republic of Serbia will be the heir or the Republic of Yugoslavia, and thus, have de jure jurisdiction over Kosovo. Why else would the EU, the UN, the US and other involved parties recognize the Republic of Serbia's government in Belgrade as the legitimate negotiating party in the Vienna talks over the future of the province? If Kosovo is not de jure part of Serbia, what are they negotiating about?

I know a lot of Kosovo Albanians like to think that Kosovo is an independent country or simply just a territory under UN administration. However, the fact, stated in 1244, is that it is recognized as a part of Yugoslavia. And, as Yugoslavia has ceased to exist it is recognized as part of the Republic of Serbia.

Who is saying that Serbian Govement (Serbia) is regodnasied als the UN member. Perhaps Kosovo is going tp be regodnasied and Serbia with Vojvodina are going to spleet. After sometime Sandjak and Serbia???? How you areseeng Serbia is a small place. It is like a bothel without milk, out side the serbian nationalist has maked wite color and you are saying that it is milk?????

Perhaps Kosovo might be or might not be recognized. Vojvodina and Serbia will never split, because Vojvodina is Serbia. The actual name is Serbian Vojvodina, but because it's within Serbia, it doesn't need to have that in front. Sandžak? That's not even recognized. It's people like you who want to tear up Serbia. But if that's your mission, learn English first. Sign your edits too. Krytan talk 21:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sandžak ( That's not even recognized???? ) and Vojvodina is recognized yes? Sandjak needs a littel more time to be recognized one or two yeare.

I know a sebians siged the song

Ko to kaze, ko to laze da Serbia je mala kan nam Belgrada Pasaluk je dala.

Two things I compel to complain

1. The Serbian dinar has been removed from the currency in the article.

2. It mentions (now Serbia) instead of the recent (now Serbia and Montenegro). If this refers to the dissolution of the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, they're far from being dissolved - the results of the referendum are still 5% off, and we'll know final results tonight. There is a long road ahead of Serbia and Montenegro, regardless of whether the Montenegrin independence referendum has succeeded or failed. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The table

The map doesn't even show Kosovo within Serbia, like the Vojvodina map. Like this, it looks as if Kosovo is independent. Krytan talk 23:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe because Kosovo is not within Serbia? didnt you wonder about that? ~Kosovo is soon to be de-jure recognized as independent, as de-facto it is. ilir_pz 23:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Now, Ilir, where are the sources to support your claim? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh jeez... but every map I look at, everywhere, Kosovo is still within Serbia. And Kosovo can be as independent as they want, at least let Leposavic and other Serb-majority municipalities stay with Serbia. RS could unify with Serbia too. Krytan talk 23:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I am none to decide that what you wish. Contact group has said specifically that Kosovo will not be devided, at any cost. And the status has to be acceptable to be acceptable to the people of Kosovo, which means independence will be the result, sooner or later. But according to Serbian sources that is to happen in November Sorry for the diappointment. Montenegro is not the last part of former Yugoslav federation to be formally recognized as independent. ilir_pz 23:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't rush into the future. Wait until Montenegro becomes independent. Also - exactly what you said: will, meaning that Kosovo is not independent yet; no? --HolyRomanEmperor 13:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It was good while it lasted :+) I'm happy that Montenegro is gone. And now Kosovo? I could really care less. I would want what's good for the Serbian people. However, when that independence day comes, then you will use this template: {{Infobox Country}}. Otherwise, the same table as Vojvodina should be used. Krytan talk 23:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't good for my nation, Albanians, anyways. So what happens with it I care less than I care for what happens with a tribe in a tribe in African jungles. I don't mind that you don't care about Kosovo. Since you don't I encourage you not to involve in edit warring, out of no reason. The template for country will be used when the time comes. As Kosovo is a territory under UN administration, no template for such cases exists. Hence, it should stay as it is. Regards, ilir_pz 23:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't good for my nation, Albanians, anyways. How? Krytan talk 23:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

No comment. ilir_pz 23:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright. The only reason I thought Kosovo was within Serbia was because of the Serbian constitution, but ok. Krytan talk 23:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Not just the Serbian constitution - read up (or in the Archive) - every single international source from the List of World Countries to the CIA considers Kosov a part of Serbia. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what all the fuss is about since it's very clear - "Kosovo is a province of Serbia currently under UN administration. Talk are going on with the aim of giving the province conditional independence by the end of the year." How can this be 'controversial'? Every government in the world recognizes this. All published maps/atlases of Europe (and of the world) show this. Look at Wikipedias map of Europe for example ]. I'm getting ready to change the current version to show this and let those who don't accept the facts get upset. Osli73 08:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Image of destroyed Serbian church

• Why? the Serbian Church
• Atention is real is not propagander masaker

During the last edit reversions going around, people have also been removing and adding back in this image. I think we should discuss it here. Personally, I do not have a real opinion on the matter, but it certainly cannot be dismissed that also many Serbian people and buildings suffered from the war. Cpt. Morgan 10:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If we keep uploading pictures of how people suffered in Kosovo, I would have to upload tons of such with mutilated bodies of Albanian civillians. The above mentioned page belongs to the 2004 pogrom in Kosovo, and other war pictures to Kosovo war. I think we should agree on this, otherwise I will have to upload some pics soon. ilir_pz 10:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Although I understand your opinion, my only goal is to reach consensus whether or not an image like this should be included in this article. I would tend think it shouldn't, since it is a general article on Kosovo and the image has little relation to that. But by reaching consensus on that issue, we at least can deal better with the continious reversions regarding that image and images like it. Cpt. Morgan 10:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I had a look at the article you mentioned and I agree the image would suit better in 2004 pogrom in Kosovo. Cpt. Morgan 10:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Good, so I remove it then. ilir_pz 10:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I put it back:))). Guess will just have to put pictures up of dead Serbs. And the only people that wound up "dead" that were Albanians, were KLA forces. Good day shqiptar.C-c-c-c 12:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear C-C-C-C, I strongly disagree that this image has a place in this article dealing in general with Kosovo. We gave a fair place in another, more suitable article, 2004 unrest in Kosovo. Without starting a revert war, if you disagree, can we first discuss the matter please? Also, can you refrain from calling a edit like this vandalism, when we are trying to obtain a reasonable solution for the matter here?Cpt. Morgan 13:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If we let this picture in the article, then we must put the horror pictur from serbian masaker Kosovo at first WW I , WWII, Balkan firs, secend and last. Destroid monument of Prizren Liga the simbol of catholic, muslim and arthodox Albanias in all the World, ect... .

Funny, Serbs were fleeing Kosovo in WWI Hipi. And learn some English, or go back to Shqip Wiki. C-c-c-c 21:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Why the srbian church? {video document} Sart with suporting demo and masaker
Show is going on 0 1 2 3
Game Over in Koshare, Kosovo
Today screaming--Hipi Zhdripi 21:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ciracassians

The article states that: There was a small minority of Circassians in Kosovo Polje(Fushë-Kosovë in Albanian) but they were repatriated to the Republic of Adygea, in Southern Russia, following threats by the KLA. I am aware of the Circassians of Kossovo since Noel Malcolm gave generous mention of their presence in this province in his well-known tome. They arrived in the Balkans (at that time still Turkey in Europe) after the Russo-Turkish wars of 1877-1878. Many of them were shipped up on the Danube and disembarked at Vidin from where they continued their journey to the Ottoman-ruled Kossovo. Many of them remained in what is today Bulgaria especially in the towns on the right bank of the Danube. Until recently there was a compact Ciracssian village very close to Salonica called Tserkassoi (in the meanwhile the Greek patriots dilligently re-baptized it Ayios Serafimos: its current name). Yet it is the first time when I hear about their being sent 'back' (after 130 years?) to Adygea in what is today Southern Russia by the "KLA'. Sorry, I one don't believe this made up story. Any concrete source or refferences? Apostolos Margaritis 17:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

That is indeed an intriguing claim. I think that the correct term is "fled". Dahn 17:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

WEll, at the end of the day google sorts everything out. Even romantic tales like that of the Circassians are inevitably cached. Malcolm describes their amazing beauty (women very beautiful, men very handsome) and about how they were accused by the locals that they steal horses and eat carrion. Many of them perished after contracting typhus. And now back to Mother Russia which they once so much hated? Apostolos Margaritis 17:53, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone removing legitimate links and other

Someone keeps removing the links that I provide. One of them is an EU link which proves that Euro is the official currency, approved by the international community in Kosovo. The other one is a link to Vetevendosja an Albanian movement in Kosovo for Self-determination. I clearly stated that is is a pro-Albanian site. I do not see why would one remove these parts? I also added categories, and fixed minor spelling mistakes. No need to remove them either. ilir_pz 23:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Question, why is the link "national awaking of Albania", or whatever is it on there. If we have to delete everything involving Serbia, why not this too?C-c-c-c 23:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not "whatever", but national awakening included Kosovo, hence it is an appropriate link. if you do not know much and want to, then look for info, but do not revert it without knowing. ilir_pz 23:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Then why can't we add Serbian politics on there? Obviously representatives of Serbia got invited to come to Vienna for the talks, so why shouldn't it be important? And if Serbia is invited, then they must be seen as a key player obviously, which you are nevertheless trying to deny. C-c-c-c 23:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Vienna talks and National Awakening of Albanians are more than a century apart. How relevant is your comment? That serbian delegation is taking place in the talks that is indicated in the first paragraph of the article. What is your point?ilir_pz 23:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

My point is, why is Serbia being invited? (because Kosovo is still legally part of S & M) C-c-c-c 23:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Because Serbia's govt is representing the interests of Kosovo Serbs :), and because it will have a lot to pay, war damages, provide information for the hidden bodies of Albanian victims transported from Kosovo to Serbia. ilir_pz 23:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

War damages? What war damages is the Kosovo government paying to ethnic Serbs? C-c-c-c 23:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, war damages. That is yet to come. Some war damages can never be repaired, thousands missing, and more than 10000 Albanians killed. Kosovo govt to pay war damages to ethnic Serbs? :))))))))))) when did kosovo's govt send troops (military or police) to massacre Serbs???!?!? ilir_pz 23:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Well since the Kosovo government was and is still primitive, they sent KLA fighters. Fortunately for the KLA, a lot of Albanian civilians joined them. :))) C-c-c-c 23:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

What war damages are they paying for destroying centuries worth of architecture, art, and taking away religious and civil freedoms of Serbs? What have the Croatians repaid for expelling 300,000 Serbs out of the Krajina? C-c-c-c 23:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

This is getting too long, and you keep jumping from a topic to another. I have no information about the war in Croatia, so I cannot speculate. You seem to have information, but share it in "Croatian war" wiki page, here is not the place. Kosovo government does not send killers to kill civillians. Some other government is talented at that, and you know who I am talking about, some more "civillized" government :))). KLA does not exist for more than 6 years now. You are just misleading. End of discussion for today. ilir_pz 00:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright...you busted me, I tried to be nice to you. Let's admit what really happened. ALbanians got fed up with the slow indepedence process and decided, "What the heck, let's just kill them all now" and attemptedto ethnically cleanse Kosovo of Serbs and other minorities. (Un)Fortunately, more Albanians wound up dead than Serbs. Blame KFOR, not us. Anyways, non-existant? I guess it was just school teachers and babysitters who went insane on Serbs in 2004, and have been attacking them ever since and well before. Yes, that would explain it. Anyways, didn't the so called KLA become Kosovo's new "defenders" (or murders)? Aren't they controlled by the government? Wouldn't it be right assume that what they do what is handed down as an order by the Kosovo government? Funny, who else does all of Kosovo's drug dealing, and human trafficking? The UN? Sleep on it, maybe you'll have a vision of dead Serbs again.:)))) C-c-c-c

Whatever. you are so young, and so full of hatred and irony. Sad. No time to answer to such nonsense.ilir_pz 08:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Young? Indeed. Full of i0rony? Oh very much so, too much in fact. Hatred? Maybe for peanuts, that's of course becaues they're murderous little devils at times. I better keep track of all my food, it may get contaminated now! I have sealed my own fate...hooray.

P.S. Happy you finally admitted Kosovo is in Serbia. C-c-c-c 03:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Where is Kosovo?

I don't see why someone would have anything against describing Kosovo as a UN administered province in southern Serbia. This is how the vast majority of western media describe Kosovo. The UN resolution 1244 defines it as a part of Yugoslavia, of which Serbia is the successor state (in the UN and with regard to international comittments and agreements). Describing it as being in the Central Balkans sounds very contrived (you never hear it described as such in media). Once Kosovo has gained independence it will be appropriate to describe it as being in the Central Balkans. However, it's not there yet.Osli73 09:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate that you care to know where Kosovo is, Osli73. Why do you insist that Kosovo has to be a part "of something" ? Kosovo according to its constitutional framework is a compact entity under UN administration. In my travellign docouments, in the part where country should be specified it says "territory under interim UN administration". Where is the problem with my definition? Feel free to browse through Constitutional Framework and tell me where it says that Kosovo is a part of Serbia? I will cite in the document point 1.1. 1.1 Kosovo is an entity under interim international administration which, with its people, has unique historical, legal, cultural and linguistic attributes. This document is approved by all the international community, and is the document with the highest value there. ilir_pz 13:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Yet again someone suspected that the above documents were prepared by the Kosovo institutions, I must repeat myself, UN administration in Kosovo has released the documents that I mentioned. You are making me cite the constitutional framework now: "CONSTITUTIONAL FRAMEWORK FOR PROVISIONAL SELF-GOVERNMENT UNMIK/REG/2001/9 - 15 May 2001 " and the travel documents UNMIK issued documents. What part of this was prepared by the Kosovo's government (which by the way is not only Albanian)?This justifies me fully to remove the speculations you added on its status, which ignore the above mentioned document. Thanks for understanding.ilir_pz 22:28, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

According to the UN (that has the area under its administration) Kosovo is officially part of Serbia. When/If it will be independent, we may remove this sentence. here are 3 maps of the UN depicting Kosovo as part of Serbia , , . --Hectorian 22:43, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The maps you showed are old, Montenegro is not in that map anymore. Hence, invalid sources. ilir_pz 22:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Montenegro will be part of the federation till end 2006. do not rush history. furthermore, the Montenegrin referendum did not make Kosovo independent. they are two different things. before u revert, provide sources that clearly show Kosovo as not been officially part of Serbia. I can find more, u know, from UN, EU, etc. I think we should stick on reality...when Kosovo becomes independent (which is a matter of time, in my opinion) the paragraph will have to change. but not at the moment. --Hectorian 22:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I am providing you with sources ratified in Kosovo, by the international community. I am not sure what did I say above that is my POV? I kept citing all the time. My POV is very different from those documents, but my point in Misplaced Pages is to cite as much as possible, for the claims and edits I provide. Thanks, ilir_pz 23:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

There is such a thing as picking the sources you want to believe. Not every source is reliable, but the UN and EU ones are. If you pick Albanian sources, you get the story you want to hear. If you ask any country in the world where Kosovo is, they'll say it's in Serbia, and so will the UN and EU. -- serbiana - talk 23:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Trust me both, i follow NPOV policies. i think that the current version is clear enough, stating both who has the area under its control (UN) and to whom it still officially belongs (Serbia). saying 'de facto serbian' is the serbian POV, saying 'not having to do anything with serbia' is the Kosovar (or Albanian) POV. the way it is now is NPOV, and furthermore it is the reality. Regards --Hectorian 23:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

HELL-ooo the sources I gave are from UN for God's sake, I am not picking anything. It is the most important document in Kosovo. ilir_pz 23:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I read the document (not all of it, in so short time, of course)... it also says: Considering that, building on the efforts undertaken by UNMIK and on the achievements of JIAS, including the valuable contribution by the people of Kosovo, and with a view to the further development of self-government in Kosovo, Provisional Institutions of Self-Government in the legislative, executive and judicial fields shall be established through the participation of the people of Kosovo in free and fair elections;

Determining that, within the limits defined by UNSCR 1244(1999), responsibilities will be transferred to Provisional Institutions of Self-Government which shall work constructively towards ensuring conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo, with a view to facilitating the determination of Kosovo's future status through a process at an appropriate future stage which shall, in accordance with UNSCR 1244(1999), take full account of all relevant factors including the will of the people;

Considering that gradual transfer of responsibilities to Provisional Institutions of Self-Government will, through parliamentary democracy, enhance democratic governance and respect for the rule of law in Kosovo;

So, let me see: further development of self-government in Kosovo, shall be established, Kosovo's future status, future stage which shall, Provisional Institutions of Self-Government will, through parliamentary democracy, enhance. this is what i meant when saying 'do not rush'... --Hectorian 23:32, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I never said that Kosovo was independent, to deserve the "dont rush" comment. I just provided you with the source that defines what Kosovo really is. The formal recognition of Kosovo's independence is yet to come, that I also said in my personal page. I still do not see where is the part that I said wrong above, that you are criticizing. ilir_pz 23:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Liar! You erased the Serbia and Montenegro part of the article. If you don't say that Kosovo is a part of something, then it must be independent. Clever you are, but not a Wikipedian for much too longer. Enjoy these few days... -- serbiana - talk 23:44, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not feed the trolls ilir_pz 23:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

But, you eat, don't you? What a paradox... -- serbiana - talk 23:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Come on guys! do not push things further... just calm down! the truth is that Ilir pz did not say that Kosovo is independent, nor i am accusing him of saying something similar. i am just saying that this document shows the current administration and the the future projects about Kosovo. it does not say that it is not officially still part of Serbia. it says that it is administered by the UN. this is different... So, i am saying, once more, that i believe the current version is the most neutral one. i may be wrong, but, honestly, i do not have any single reason to push serbian or albanian POV:) --Hectorian 23:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

i added some clarification, Hectorian. Let me know what you think. I think I did agree to disagree already a lot, I expect the rest to follow the example. 00:32, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo is de jure a province of Serbia. -- serbiana - talk 00:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The clarification Ilir pz added seems fine to me. Bormalagurski, yes, Kosovo is de jure/at the moment/currently/officially/formally/at the present/according to the UN, EU/etc etc a province of Serbia. i cannot see why u have to repeat it all the time... --Hectorian 00:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, pls all consider NPOV before editting or reverting. i am not saying that this is the best wording ever (i may be wrong, u know...) but i think that it is based in facts and reality. anything that may happen in the future can completely alter the opening paragraph. Wow, i am beginning to feel like Annan! (God no! we all have our POV on different issues, that's why i am talking as a "peacemaker" here:)...) --Hectorian 01:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

:) the near future will change the opening paragraph for sure. ilir_pz 01:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone removed the de jure and de facto terms to make the text more smooth. I agreed with him on that one, so I put them back but replaced them by in principle and in practice. Cpt. Morgan 13:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Serb Crimes hard to be found

The Kosovo page is highly slanted towards Serbs.There is no way this page is going to remain like this.

"Alleged execution of civilians in Recak"?
No talk about mosque destruction when 200 of them were raised to the ground 
No mention of the notorious massacres ( other than Recak) 
2,800 people of Serb origin are still missing? Baloney. 

I will be busy in the next couple of weeks giving this page a sense of sanity. I haven't looked at it in while and sure enough it has been high jacked by the Serb propaganda machine. The whole thing is slanted!Ferick 03:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Come back with sources, Ferick. Of course you are welcome to edit here, and disregard inflammatory comments from people who attempt to stop you from doing that. ilir_pz 08:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

We all look forward to your continued defamation of this article Ferick. C-c-c-c 03:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

So you are going to vandalize the article? Bravo, bravo... -- Krytan talk 01:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so now I have a RELIABLE source that catalogues the destruction of mosques and other cultural property in Kosovo. Of 500 mosques that were in use before the war, 200 of them were destroyed completely, vandalized or defecated by Serb forces.Another words made useless. Anybody disagree that this fact should be put on the article?

Serb Crimes in Kosovo (That should appear more visibly in the article):

Torture chambers found in the Serb Police Headcounters A VILLAGE DESTROYED: War Crimes in Kosovo

Gornje Obrinje—Shelled to Death

Alleged civilians killed in Recak?

BALKAN WITNESS: Articles on the Kosovo Conflict

Recak report finds Serbs guilty: Forensics show 45 victims were unarmed civilians

How many Serbs are still missing in Kosovo? 2,800? How about 500? 3,000 missing in Kosovo

Interestingly enough, none of these reports were compiled by Albanians …..HINT HINT HINT.216.209.33.60

These sources were long needed to prove that many crimes in Kosovo were not "alleged" as some like to label them, but happened for real. No wonder, 10000 or more Albanians did not get struck by NATO, or thunder. These articles have to be incorporated here, and as well in the Kosovo war article. Thanks for bringing these sources here, Ferick. ilir_pz 09:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I propose making two separate chapters: Albanian warcrimes and Serbian warcrimes - or something to that effect. That way both sides can provide all the selective 'evidence' they want in 'their' sections, without poisoning the entire article. How about that?Osli73 22:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Crimes are crimes, and took place in Kosovo. If the sources are reliable, all of them need to be put in one place. It is not what "sides" think that should be put here, but what independent sources have confirmed. If we put what "sides" think, we will get more than 20000 Serbs killed during the war, and that documentation might exist, as prepared during Milosevic era, for justifying his massacres. Thus I do not think we should separate them. ilir_pz 09:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

That's a start, but incorporating them in the main article would be better. I do not oppose your idea- I could live with it. I am not here to show selective information. All I want is for the article to show the facts as they are- nothing else. Reading the article as it is you would get an impression that Albanians were the main perpetrators of crimes in Kosovo, which is of course nonsense.Ferick 00:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Rather than having separate sections for Serb and ethnic Albanian crimes, why not have a section on war crimes allegations with bullet points with brief details and links to other sources.--الأهواز 00:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

We can have a section for alleged crimes (No Independent Source), but there also needs to be a section of proven crimes. If we just have alleged crimes, we are misleading the reader into thinking that there is been no proven crimes. We all know that that is not the case. We just need to agree on how to distinguish alleged crimes from proven ones.Ferick 03:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the latter. Many crimes were alleged, for reaching certain (stupid) goals. Instead, it is good to make a clear distinction of what was alleged and what was proven to have happened. In advance I propose to not use local sources. What do you think? they can be biased. ilir_pz 09:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, sources by individual journalists and unreliable institutions should be treated with a grain of salt. There are always nut-head journalists who are so anti American that they will oppose anything the U.S. supports. I don't want sources banned just because of their origin, but dubious sources should require additional back up from reliable INSTITUTIONS.Ferick 12:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ferick: I think you are right, but I can see this becoming an issue of dispute. What would you say is a reliable source? Also, some may argue that the only crimes that are proven are those that have been successfully convicted by the International Tribunal.--الأهواز 12:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I would guarantee you that no Serb or Albanian would agree that the only crimes that are proved are those that have been successfully convicted by the International Tribunal. What is a reliable source? Any institution that has been in a business for years with a proven record of reliability and fairness (CNN,BBC,TIME,NEW YORK TIMES etc).I know it's vague, but we have to take sources as they come and examine them.Ferick 13:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I have a couple of comments and proposals:

(1) Change the focus from "war crimes" to "civilian casualties" or something else, as the former has become more of legal term, risking confusion. Also focusing on the effects on the civilian population would give a more holistic view, rather than just listing individual incidents/war crimes.

(2) Don't use ICTY indictments/convictions as a yardstick:

(a) Focusing on ICTY convictions risks only bringing up those incidents where the perpetrator has been identified and enough evidence is available to convict him/her. This would exclude all of the incidents where there clearly are victims, but no perpetrator has been identified or enough evidence is available for a indictment/conviction.

(b) As the ICTY doesn't have its own investigative resources it depends on evidence gathered by and provided by other parties, usually the parties involved in the conflict in one way or another. Thus, ICTY indictments/convictions are more an indicator of where information has been made available to it rather than of which war crimes have been committed.

(3) Let's take a top-down approach. (a) Start with how many civilian casualties (fatalities) there were and then categorize them as to if they were (i) in Serbia or in (ii) Kosovo. For the ones in Kosovo, categorize them between Albanians, Serbs and others as well as if they were before, during or after the Nato part of the war. (b) Add a paragraph on demolished buildings and property in general and cultural buildings in particular. (c) Add something on refugees, both during and after the war (were there any significant numbers before?) and returns. (d) Finally, some words about the ICTY and other legal indictments and convictions would be interesting (they would not in themselves show the whole picture, however).

If you accept (roughly) the above, I propose that we divide each of the sections between us and then post them here in a couple of days to discuss. How about this?Osli73 15:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Conflicts between UN Resolution 1244 and S and M's Constitutional Charter

I know that there is a dispute over the issue of Kosovo's sovereignty - whether it is a province of Serbia or of the union of Serbia and Montenegro. Looking at UN Resolution 1244, Kosovo is not defined as an autonomous area of Serbia but of the then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro). It also recognises the territorial integrity of FRY.

Paragraph 10 "Authorizes the Secretary-General to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic selfgoverning institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo."

To me, the issue is fairly clear-cut as far as international law is concerned: under Resolution 1244, Kosovo is an autonomous region of Serbia and Montenegro. There is no mention of rule from the Serbian authorities, which are distinct from the union of Serbia and Montenegro.

But the issue is complex as the country as a whole has changed its constitution since Resolution 1244 was passed. Serbia and Montenegro is a union of two republics and under the old FRY before the 1999 war it was legally a province of Kosovo. I do not think that the Republic of Serbia has changed its position with regards to the sovereignty of Kosovo. So, under the law of Serbia and Montenegro, Kosovo is technically still a part of Serbia. The Constitutional Charter of Serbia and Montenegro is quite clear about this. It refers to "the state of Serbia which includes the Autonomous Province of Vojvodina and the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija."

No-one can actually state Kosovo's legal position until the issue of its constitutional arrangement is finally settled. There is considerably ambiguity as to Kosovo's sovereignty and in a sense both Bormalagurski and Ilir_pz are right.

As a neutral observer, I think the conflict between the law of Serbia and Montenegro and international law with regards to Kosovo's sovereignty should be highlighted in this article.--الأهواز 09:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

When local law contradicts international law, more often then not, International law takes precedence. No?Ferick 18:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree Ferick.Local laws are disregarded in this case, hence the constitution law of SCG is less powerful than the international law. ilir_pz 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this is a controversial topic at all. How can it be, when any map of Europe will show you Kosovo as an province of Serbia. And we all know that it is run by the UN and that negotiations are ongoing about some form of independence. Take a look at the map of Europe published in Misplaced Pages as an example (but any reputable political map of Europe will tell you the same thing). What's so controversial about this?Osli73 22:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

You tend to ignore internationally ratified documents ruling in Kosovo, and instead refer to some maps, Osli73. Not sure this is how a politician like you should evaluate the real situation. Regards, ilir_pz 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The controversy is whether Kosovo is a part of the union of Serbia and Montenegro or the Republic of Serbia. There is a difference between the two. The UN Resolution refers to Kosovo as an autonomous region of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but this has now been replaced by the Union of Serbia and Montenegro which has declared in its constitution that Kosovo is an autonomous part of Serbia. The issue would provide rich pickings for lawyers, but I don't think anyone here is qualified to make a judgement. We can only provide some understanding of the controversies and contradictions and leave it to the reader's judgement.--الأهواز 23:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the statement by Ferick above made it clear, that international laws here make more sense than the other local law. ilir_pz 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The issue here is whether Serbia and Montenegro (Which by the way is now a defunct state) can enact laws which are in direct contradiction with International Law. The answer is no. Serbia is no position to defy International Law. They can pass all the laws they want, but that is not going to change the situation on the ground (Taiwan). We all know that Kosovo was at one time physically a part of Yugoslavia. There is question about this legality, but that was the case. It’s also true that Serbia has no legal authority in Kosovo as of right now (Serb Laws do not apply in Kosovo). The future will be determined soon.Ferick 00:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Guys, as i have said before, i think that the issue is more easy to deal with it. Kosovo, an autonomous province of Former Yugoslavia became part of New Yugoslavia (later just Yugoslavia, and some years ago became Serbia and Montenegro). according to the UN, it is a de jure part of Serbia (even after the Montenegrin referendum and the divide of the federal state, Kosovo, de jure, is part of Serbia). But, de facto, is under UN control (with much EU influence). when the talks about its future will come to an end, we can add their outcome here (and move the current ballanced-i think-edits to the history section). but it is silly to say that it is not part of Serbia at present, although the UN recognises it as such, it has not declared independance, nor any country has attempted to recognise it as separate country. thus, at the moment, the article is accurate enough, without taking sides (note that the first paragraph is the result of a sort of compromise between two users supporting different POVs). --Hectorian 00:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

What UN document are you referring to when you say: “according to the UN, is a de jure part of Serbia”. I am not aware of any UN document that says Kosovo is part of Serbia. Enlighten us please!

The best way to describe Kosovo’s status right now is: No Status (Limbo). Kosovo is neither independent, nor under legal control of Serbia or Yugoslavia or Serbia Montenegro or UN (UN Administration in most cases does not make decisions without consulting Kosovo Government) or whatever country you want to mention. Ferick 03:33, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats it. And you dont need to say nothingg more. But here is nt the problem thate the serbian users dont know thate but they are usen this page for conflicts. They can not live without problems, they need somthing to be spocet about they, they must put they fingers every wher. I can understen they beacose they bio-gens are so --172.208.219.77 00:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

No UN approved document mentions Kosovo to be a part of Serbia Hectorian. Take a look at the 1244 resolution, or any law ratified in Kosovo by the UNMIK. It is not good to speculate, based on some laws passed by a country that has no moral, and no factual right over Kosovo. Those laws in this case are useless and ignored fully. ilir_pz 09:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

That is factually incorrect. Even the ICTY uses the term in indictment texts . I like Hectorian's common sense approach, but unfortunately you will find common sense does not abound around here. This is my last contribution to this debate. I hope things improve in a years time. Regards, E Asterion 12:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about legal documents ( Passed by the General Assembly or UNSC) not press releases. So you are factually incorrect.Ferick 13:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Maps and press releases are not equally important as UNSC decisions, Asterion. ilir_pz 19:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The UN Resolution 1244 says that Kosovo is part of FRY. It makes no mention of whether it is part of Serbia proper or a member of the federation - now a political union. The Constitution of Serbia and Montenegro states that Kosovo is part of Serbia.--الأهواز 12:46, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Asterion. i will not take part in this debate anymore either... UN maps and documents, plus all countries all over the world, say that it is a de jure part of Serbia. i find it useless to try to convince users to accept reality... if they want to stick on specific words, denying the whole meaning of a document, it's fine by me... i won't take part in edit-rv-wars (i think i can be more useful in other articles). In a year's time, i hope, the dispute over this fact will be over. --Hectorian 12:56, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Its fine you guys don’t want to take part in the debate. We are looking at the situation from two different Paradigms-diametrically opposing views. Normally, people can find common points of agreement but I guess you don’t think that is possible. The problem here is that even if Kosovo were to become independent tomorrow you would still point out that Serbia has not accepted this Independence and therefore Independence is not valid. Am I wrong here?

There is more here that just a disagreement about the current status of Kosovo. You think Kosovo shall never become Independence, which is a political view, and there are other people (majority) who beg to differ. That’s the underlying disagreement. I suspect the disagreement will go on even after Kosovo’s status is resolved because of what I said above.Ferick 13:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Stop pushing POV and altering my words (and Asterion's as well)! and stop supposing what i may say if/when Kosovo becomes independent and how i may feel 'bout the serbs or albanians (there are users who know). lastly, i will come back in this debate only when the users will be ready to accept facts and reality. end of discussion (at the moment) for me. --Hectorian 13:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

POV pushing is ignoring what the UNSC states, and instead referring to some maps, or press releases, or constitutions of a country that literally organized the genocide in Kosovo. Call your reason, and consider when you cite sources. Thank you, ilir_pz 19:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I think there is an obvious confusion in the legal status of Kosovo due to the contradiction between the constitution of Serbia and Montenegro and Resolution 1244. I think we can only point this out in the article, quoting each document. I don't think maps and press releases define what is sovereignty "de jure", although I think we are all agreed that neither Serbia nor the union of Serbia and Montenegro have any real power over Kosovo. It is also not our place to decide on whether Kosovo should be independent or not and anyone who thinks that this article should pass judgement is missing the point about Misplaced Pages and its commitment to NPOV.--الأهواز 19:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

That is exactly what I am against, Ahwaz. Some people here attempt to find sources that only back their wishes (i.e. wanted status of Kosovo), and it is wrong. The fact is Kosovo has no legal status, hence, not a part of any country. Period. If we quote constitutions, then Kosovo's (more than 90%) of the population declared it independent in early 90's. Then we need to respect that constitution which was approved by the significant majority of the territory we are talking about. Then there is another confusion added to the whole mess. Instead, keep to the point, Kosovo's status is yet unresolved, that is why negotiations are taking place. It is quite clear for me, don't know why people here get confused so much. ilir_pz 19:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Serbia and Montenegro

Serbia and Montenegro still exists even after the Montenegrin referendum. Montenegro has passed no law of secession, the union has not been formally dissolved, Montenegro is not recognised as an independent state by the UN and is not a member of the UN. Some editors started deleting Serbia and Montenegro from this article even before the referendum results were declared. It won't be some months before Montenegro is an independent state and until then, Serbia and Montenegro is the correct term to use.--الأهواز 12:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

The reason they delete SCG and instead leave Serbia is because it somehow satisfies their inner feeling. No matter how strange that may seem for you. ilir_pz 19:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

My friend at first. After the serbian masaker (I mean with humen definicion of term "masaker" not with the propagada definition) in Kosovo, with masaker in Adem Jashari family, Serbia hase lost Kosovo, "de facto" and "de juro". Now, the serbians can start screaming and crying for they church, and they political "masakers", for they "enklaves" but thet is going nothing to chanche, Kosovo ist "de facto" and "de juro" out of Serbia. The nature (biologie gene) of this folk is this. They have started with military agains the armed familys wich have no eperienc with military. (Sllovenia, Kroacia, Bosnja, Kosovo). After they lose (eache family belongs to one folk they have forgetit thate), they stardet screaming and crying. The albanian nature is somthing als, we know who hase don what and thate all what we need. The father and mther Russia is death and the serbs diden understande thate till now. This is a problem. For your "Serbia and Montenegro" the paper in witch is wroting that they are a state you can take and user for WC.--172.178.93.99 20:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

To the non IP, I can say that I was brought up a Muslim and I have no sympathy for the Serbian Orthodox Church. But if you are talking of the law, the status of Kosovo is not certain. Kosovo is not an independent state. The UN recognises it as part of Serbia and Montenegro and the constitution of Serbia and Montenegro recognises it as part of Serbia. Whether you like it or not, Kosovo is de jure part of the Union until it's final status is resolved. This is not about being pro- or anti- Albanian or Serbia, it is simply about the facts. Personally, I have nothing against Serbs and Montenegrins and have met Dragiša Burzan, the ambassador to London and former deputy prime minister of Montenegro, on two occasions. I think the issue is complex and should not be determined by the political preferences of certain editors, either pro-Serbian or pro-Albanian.--الأهواز 00:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the Sebian govermant hase taket a ofenisve too explen the world, thate ther was not only the serbian masaker. But, the problem in Kosovo is thate there was no masaker too the civilian serban peopel. The Albanians dident have "special" organisedet units for clearing the area with masaker. And now, the serbian user s are trainig to make "political masaker" from the frustration of the albanian peopel agains the kiling of three albanian chldern in Mitrovica. The albanias in Kosovo diden forgetit the time in witch the Serbs after they came bake from the church they kame mit Kalishnikov duing the year 1992-1999, they diden forget thate time and they dont wont to forget all the serbians masakers in Kosovo. And at last Kosovo since the folk of Kosovo has cleare disedet to be indenpendent Kodovo is out of Serbia, and now is the time in too be acceptet from the serbian folk but they are sleepen and thinkin that it was only a dream. No, no it was not a dream it was drog and raki and now you fiel seek. Dont Dring and Make War. --Hipi Zhdripi 11:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Half of the serbian Church it was build during the Millosheviq time, and they was build to be used als Bunker.--Hipi Zhdripi 11:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hipi, the 127 monasteries that albanian kosovars ruined were built more than 5 centuries ago. To some foreigner it might sound strange that there are so many monasteries in Kosovo and Metohija. But, more than 90% of the monasteries had been there for centuries. The root of the word Metohija is a holy land, the one that belongs to church. This whole region for serbs is like Jerusalem for the Israelis or Palestinians. Gianni ita 18:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC) You are showing everyone that you don't know anything about Kosovo. Five centuries ago Kosovo was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and there were very few churches build at that time.Ferick 05:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Paparlapap, I live here. 5 centuries? yes and the serbians from Hungary and als wher has take care to keep they during the Ottoman time and they diden succes to keep they church in Belgrade????? Till the 1912 in Belgrad it was more muslims monasters als serbians. Go and talk with somebody out of Earth. All the serbian Church in Kosovo it was build after the Ottomans started to lose controll over this area, please this is not a place to talle the children a good night storys.--172.208.219.77 00:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Very emotional description, Gianni_ita. I am not sure Israelis massacred the people of Jerusalem, and opened many mass graves filled with bodies of civillians, or even worse cremated them somewhere outside Jerusalem. Hint: Serbian regime did. As far as churches are concerned, some people say those Churches existed much earlier than 5 centuries ago, when the local people were Roman Catholic. The land is holy to those who make a living there, are born there, and the generations before them have also. Living in myths is wrong. With all respect to Serbian churches, do not make it sound as if Albanians do not care about them. The cultural heritage of all Kosovo is sacred, and (has to and) will be protected. Let me remind you that during the war several other cultural heritages in Kosovo were damaged, among them hundreds of equally old mosques, and building of League of Prizren, and many many public libraries. Measuring who did what during the war, and who did more or less harm to the other, is not smart. ilir_pz 18:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I just want to add another thing. I wanted to say how i admire all the Albanians, and especially all the albanians from Kosovo. There has never been a single conflict between them, they all share the same views about serbs, serbia, kosovo...They always stick to their ideas and plans. They will always repeat their POV, even if it is not totally truthful, and try to explain it to foreigners. They want the story of how they suffered under the Serbs to be retold everywhere and all the time. They understood the importance of lobbying long before any other nations from the Balkan peninsula. I admire the albanian people for making plans about independence decades ago, when it seemed that independence is impossible, but they patiently waited for the right moment, and it came, with Milosevic, the person whose statue should be on the main square in Pristina, as he made everything possible (he can stand next to Tito, he was the first one who gave albanians a little hope for independence). For all that, i envy my dear neighbors. Gianni ita 18:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I will have to correct your "admiration", Kosovar Albanians were slow in uniting as they did today, and several types of suffering and oppresions finally brought the (admirable by you) situation as it is now. Ironically. And their unification is not against Serbs or Serbia, but against any kind of imposed regime on Kosovo again. Let us have this clear here. One smart move that Ibrahim Rugova took I will always appreciate, he did not inspire any responce (militarily) to Milosevic's provocations to start some kind of uprisal in early 1990s, because we were going to be the lesson for all the rest of republics within ex-Yug that wanted to secceede. Luckily, that did not work, or today we would have a majority of Serbs in Kosovo, and mass graves filled with (more than 10) thousands of bodies of Albanians, and Albanian refugees would be already used to living outside Kosovo (in Albania and all around the world) and Operation Horseshoe would be completed much earlier. Milosevic did plenty to deserve to be mentioned in the black history of Kosovo, and one that destroyed the lives of hundreds of thousands of people (not only in Kosovo) and (hopefully not for a long time) spoiled the coexistence of Serbs and other non-Serbs he terrorized. It would be a shame even if anyone erects a statue of his even in Serbia. Your irony can be felt, but you should know some more facts before you use it. ilir_pz 18:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

oh and another thing, the reason most of us Albanian Wikipedians trying to explain issues to international readers here is to show them a side of the story, which has been covered up by an excellent (I must say, ironically) propaganda orchestrated in many years by several Serbian regimes, where Albanians are represented as wild, always causing wars, illiterate, ugly looking, (once horribly even heard that Albanians allegedly had tails), making racial comments, the Muslims of the Europe (the tie with Al-Qaeda or whatever) i.e. threat to Christian Europe, and many many more things, which are ridiculous to mention. The world does not hate Serbs, they just understood the truth finally, and were slow at doing that, unfortunately, after many lives of innocents were lost. ilir_pz 19:08, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo is the drug-trading hot-spot, and so is Albania. Half of the population of Albania are still farmers, using tools that were used centuries ago. Albania has a large gray economy that may be as large as 50% of official GDP. Now, as far as wars are concerned, Albanians have, only in the last 15 years, started three, one in Kosovo, one in South Serbia (Presevo Valley), and one in Macedonia. All were wars of secession, wherever they go, they want to separate. This is not propaganda, this is fact, and anyone in the world can check it. Comparing to Serbia's percentage of 96% who can read and write, Albania's percentage of 86% sounds low. I have never heard, in my 16 years of living in Serbia, that Albanians have tails, I'm affraid you made that up. Furthermore, the Greater Albania concept still lives in Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece, while the "Greater Serbia" dream has faded away long ago. I think the world should stop focusing on something that no longer exists, and focus on solving the problem that the drug-dealing, weapons-smuggling, war-starting Albanians. Regards, -- serbiana - talk 19:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

As I have said before, take with a grain of salt everything written by a Serb about Albanians. They will stop at nothing in their attempt to spread falsehoods. Now, ladies and gentleman, here is something about Serbia that a Serb would do anything to prevent you from knowing. This information is from a Serbian source: Serbian Education and Labor Ministry!

Poverty still rife in Serbia “President of the Free Workers Union, Dragoljub Stosic, said that Albania was once the regional poster child for poverty, but that because of the high unemployment rate and the increased amount of corruption, Serbia has now taken over the role. “We are, unfortunately, one of the countries for which days such as this are being recognized.” Stosic said yesterday, which marked the International Day for the Fight Against Poverty. “We are on the same level as Rwanda and similar countries, though I would not compare them with us because, there are increasingly fewer and fewer nations with whom we can compare ourselves. We cannot offer help today, we can only ask for charity.” Stosic said.”

Half of Serbia Illiterate “According to statistics from the Education Ministry, nearly 50 percent of Serbian citizens never finished elementary schooling. This means that over 3 million people in Serbia are considered illiterate by all international and European standards. “

I report, you decide.Ferick 17:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think these comments about Albanians are conducive to a discussion on how to produce a factual NPOV article. It would be helpful if editors desisted from shouting against Serbs and Albanians and got on with putting in factual content.--الأهواز 11:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

These are mild comments in comparison what I am used to hearing, Ahwaz. You are just seeing the top of the iceberg here. ilir_pz 11:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

See Giani_ita, this text above is exactly what I am talking about, the extent that the Serbian youth is mis-informed about Albanians in general. I do not care to explain further to people who are determined to push their propaganda. I only state the facts, by providing you with sources. ilir_pz 21:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

See, dear Wikipedians, this is exactly what I'm talking about, the extent that the Albanian youth is mis-informed about it's own people in general. I have only stated facts, Ilir has done nothing to prove me wrong, but has claimed that I'm pushing my POV. He accuses me of pushing propaganda, yet he can't find a single source to prove me wrong. PROVE ME WRONG, ILIR, PROVE ME WRONG! -- serbiana - talk 00:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You dont just copy the way I make my personal page, but even the way I write sentences. Cite at least :))))). Your disruptive behavior (has been and) will be dealt with by admins soon. ilir_pz 00:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You have lost Sllovenian war, Croatian war, Bosnien war, Kosovo war, thate was not inofe you have killed the democratie (Xhinxhiq) and you are acusen the albanias for great albania??? Please after you are clean from Raki comme bac.--172.208.219.77 00:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You must add a |reason= parameter to this Cleanup template – replace it with {{Cleanup|reason=<Fill reason here>}}, or remove the Cleanup template.

Serbiana you might have been a little bit harsh on Albanian people in general. Kosovo does have a high criminality rate, but the situation in Albania is a lot different, and i don't think that 50% of the Albanian GDP is made through drug and people trafficking, although the percentage is pretty high compared to some other Balkan countries.

Ilir, you know exactly the things that when told to a foreigner make Serbians sound like bad guys and albanian kosovars as good guys. You start by saying how the world until recent years was aware of only one side of the truth, the serbian POV. First of all that's completely incorrect. No one wants and no one ever wanted to listen to Serbs and their story. The reason for that is because the Serbs since the WWI have had the lousiest polititians in the world. Hundreds of thousands of Serbs massacred by Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and Albanians were simply forgotten in order to preserve the brotherhood between the nations. The world never heard about serbian victims. Serbs are the only nation from the Balkan peninsula that until recently didn't have any lobbyists in the US.

Then you make Kosovar war look like a religious war, which again doesn't have any sence. You know that even if the Albanians were jews, or catholics or even christian orthodox, the war would have taken place. You talk constantly and in detail how people were massacred, and that is the easiest and the most efficient way to get support from some foreigner. you think that i don't have stories to retell?

Gianni ita 09:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

All the Balkans has a high criminality rate. I hear more cases of different mafia bosses being arrested and chased in Serbia than in any country around, but for some reason only Albanians have a high criminality rate. Gianni_ita, it is not in my interest to make serbs look as bad guys. Having good neighbours is better than bad ones, that you dont have to be smart to know. But unfortunately one should clarify the truth, when having neighbours who were blinded by propaganda, for decades, into thinking only bad about among their oldest neighbours-Albanians. You say that the reason the world does not want to listen to Serbs is because you had the lousiest politicians. I am not sure who elects them, God or the people. I think the latter. So it should have been them who should have done something, not instead follow them to wage wars. I think the world got the picture about all the victims in this bloody region. I did not say Kosovar war was a religious one, though Serbian regime wanted to give it such a character: it destroyed many old mosques (also cultural heritage of Kosovo, just like churches), spread rumours about Al-Qaeda being in Kosovo, etc. I am not interested to describe the massacres either, they disturb me more than they disturb a foreigner, because I had relatives who were victims of that. Massacres are just another reason, in a list of many, that Kosovo should be only independent, and have no relation with a regime which seems democratic from outside, but uses the same language against Albanians as Milosevic did...exclude the military and police brutality, it is exactly the same. I do justify them though, having that many radicals in the parliament, they have to act the way they are. ilir_pz 10:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, when 2 mosques in serbia were ruined, because more than 50 orthodox serbian churches were previously (in kosovo), the BBC, CNN, said that violence escalated on both sides (I'm refering to march 2003). It is true that when we talk about victims or ruined houses, monasteries, we can't subtract the numbers from each other and find whose guilt it is, but in this case the difference between the numbers is just enormous. About criminality rate, if you don't want to accept that Kosovo and Albania have the highest rates of criminality in Europe, OK. About Al-Qaeda- I have no idea if al-qaeda was in Kosovo, it wouldn't surprise me, it had been proven that even now they have training camps in muslim part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I hope that you accept that fact. About serbian polititians- people choose only the president. All the others that you get with him can be a lot different. In the past, they didn't choose a king, nor did the choose Tito. The only wrong one the people of serbia elected was Slobodan Milosevic (after that he bought the next elections). So, don't blame Serbian people. About independence. that's a long story, and i don't have time now. I can only say that full independence (as in change of borders of Serbia) should not be accepted. talk to you later ilir. Gianni ita 18:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The Serbian Church was destroid not beacose they was the religion house, but beacose this Churchi wasen t religons House. This Churches was used from Belgrade to give arms and mobilised the serbians civilist in Kosovo and start again War. Do you think thate NATO can not stop the albanian protest? The NATO problem it was thate every day Belgrade send to this Church military peopel. And they diden wountit to be involt in this case and let the albanias extremist to do thate. Gianni ita naice name, you are thinkin thate is the time in witch Serbians was supported from Rusia, this is your problem and this was the serbian problem during the last 20 years. They was thinking thate Rusia is going to support the serbs with every think, they was thinking thate if NATO is going to start the War, Rusia is going to be involt in War (they wounted to start the WWIII), but they send only some oficiers and solders and nothing more. Please dont forget in year 1912 Serbia was the smallerst pashalluk from all Balkans folks, they haved nothing, nothing they was liven in perifery of the citys and was mixed with gypsy/roma. They wasen nothink only the Rusian propagander hase made this name Serbia to somthing. And during 80 years unter this name in Balkan was maked the most masakers in the civilian peopel, more thane each time in the History of Balkan. The "serbs" in Croatia was t serbs but only there Church was Orthodox and the Church in Belgrade hase declaredet every Orthodox in west Balkan to Serbs from this propagander one Church one nation, only the Motenegriens hase survieved with many losed years. And now they wount to talle somthing about the Albanians. Oh my friend in this world somebody is born to destroid and somebody to create. The serbs hase destroid the olders Churchs in Dardania area from Byzant and Roman E. They have burn the Albanian identity in the Dardania, the last argument in witch way they have don it was in border Kosovo to Albania and border to Macedonia in last war. See the Sebian Akademy Memorandum. No one Academy in Balkan has souch plans. But the Futer is going to better and souch thinks are going to be netralizedet before they comme in life. -- Hipi - from UNI

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