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New renaming

I'm opposed to the new renaming of this article to "SF1 (television)" as I don't believe this is either the common nor the official name of the product. Unlike the C1 NES TV that was also recently moved to "C1 (television)", the SF-1 SNES TV never had a North American release so I can understand that the term "SF-1 SNES TV" (which is used by reliable sources including kotaku, gamesradar, and technologytell) conflicts with the "official" name. In examining reliable Japanese-language sources such as Famitsu Magazine (Issues #1153 and #1205), the most commonly used Japanese name appears to be 『スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ SF1』 or "Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1" ("Super Famicom Built-In TV SF1"). Famitsu's use of this use of the term agrees with the TV cabinet art I have seen and thus would seem to be a good contender for the product's official name. In looking through reliable English-language sources covering the topic, the only alternative to "SF-1 SNES TV" that doesn't produce a conflict via the regional term "SNES" (rather than "SFC") is "Personal Game Television SF1" (a term used in the June 1992 edition of Popular Science Magazine).

Ultimately the controlling policy is WP:UCN. In performing a quick Google-test, I've found the following common usage statistics:

I think the current title ("SF1 (television)") is confusingly similar to SF 1 and is altogether too vague to describe this product. I've asked the editor who performed the page move to provide reliable sources that describe the product simply as "SF1". At this point I think there could be an argument to rename the article to "Sharp SF-1" in keeping with the most popularly used term, or back to "SF1 SNES TV" as used by the reliable sources, but "SF1 (television)" strikes me as a poor choice for title. -Thibbs (talk) 13:17, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

"スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ" is being treated as a "descriptor"; note how the actual unit just uses "SF1". As far as usage goes, beware that Japanese-language Google searches tend to favor "スーパーファミコンテレビSF1" (there are a grand total of 75 hits with 内蔵). Also, we can't use "Sharp SF1" (not SF-1) for the same reason we can't use "Nintendo Wii"; the company's name is not part of the product's.
Sharp's X1 is just like these TVs, and we may have to make the appropriate changes. The X1 even has a cute little descriptor of its own: パソコンテレビ. If that doesn't throw these descriptors out the window, I don't know what does.
For the record, UCN states quite clearly: "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". While "C1" could be considered as "ambiguous", I'm pretty sure the spirit of this usage is trying to avoid generic words everywhere.
The whole point of adding "(television)" was to separate from something like SF 1, never mind that channel is known as SRF 1 now. There's not a whole lot else you can do anyway; if someone can still be reasonably confused from this scenario, that's just plain ignorance on their part.
I just can't see how one could really argue for another title after all this. Despatche (talk) 16:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
You've accurately quoted UCN but you've failed to appreciate the important part of which I'll highlight for you here: "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." You have yet to produce a single reliable source that claims "SF1 SNES TV" to be an ambiguous or inaccurate name for the article subject. You have made reference to box art that you have seen (potentially somewhat reliable as an SPS) but you haven't even provided evidence of that. Contrary to your idea that "'スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ' is being treated as a 'descriptor'" and that "the actual unit just uses 'SF1'", here is an image of the top of the TV set where "スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ SF1" is clearly visible on the name placard. This title matches the term used by Famitsu magazine in articles like this and this. Note the consistency with which the term used by the reliable Japanese-language sources matches the name as displayed on the TV set. If indeed "スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ" is being treated as a "descriptor" as you have suggested then you'll have to provide evidence of this in the form of reliable sources that state that. Simply asserting that it is the case based on your personal examination of the TV set and box art isn't sufficient evidence for Misplaced Pages's purposes.
Furthermore, as I keep saying, WP:UCN demands that the common name be used preferentially over the official name unless reliable sources can be located to demonstrate that the common name is erroneous. So Sharp SF-1 would certainly be a possible option which as you nicely pointed out would be consistent with the way we have handled the Sharp X1.
Finally, I'd like to ask you to stop making edits like this while we're in the middle of discussing this issue. Changing every instance of what you consider to be the wrong title won't do any of us any good if it turns out that your theories are wrong. There will be time to make all such edits after we've come to a consensus. Trying to force the issue by editing the articles to match your disputed version gets us nowhere. -Thibbs (talk) 17:13, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
I've heard of "thinking outside the box", but this is going too far. :V
Reliable source located: the box, or the boxes at this point. Those Famitsu scans? They're showing the logo--they're showing the descriptor in action--never mind that Famitsu can do whatever it wants because it's not an official source itself. I've already explained pretty clearly why the boxes are valid, many many times. You've targeted one of the very few images of the thing that just so happen to use that card (most of them don't have it; it's probably something you can attach to it (ALERT: TOTAL GUESS)). You've completely ignored how I've been arguing that "Sharp X1" might be invalid (good luck arguing out of that one, no one uses its descriptor), and you're still using "SF-1" for some reason (small, but it says something). You're even trying to get this pushed into SPS territory, even though it's a PRODUCT BOX, never mind that I'm finding these images the same way you're finding these "common names"; the good old Google test. Now you're accusing me of crap while I was just fixing a disambig to match what we currently have, because it was broken!
I feel like I'm being trolled over here. Despatche (talk) 17:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
It's abundantly clear that the box art is an SPS on this issue if it's anything. And you're using its physical appearance as the equivalent of a claim which is not at all the same thing. We can ask the folks at WP:RS/N if it's OK in this situation if you wish. You can claim that Famtisu is unreliable all you want, but it's listed as reliable at WP:VG/RS and until you argue your point at the talk page there, it will continue to be regarded as more authoritative than User:Despatche. Please don't make edits to match what we currently have because what we currently have is disputed. And you're obviously aware of that. As I've told you repeatedly, there will always be time to make this change after we've achieved a consensus. There is no rush to immediately change everything to match your favorite version. -Thibbs (talk) 17:58, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
How in the hell are many many many images of the product material and the product itself (none of which have been uploaded by me, I don't own a C1!) somehow SPS?! Just about the only thing you could possibly fight against is "there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity", and unless honestly believe that even one of these images were doctored for some agenda, I think we can throw that out the window (can't wait for some kind of snarky joke in relation to this). You're seriously accusing me of saying Famitsu is "unreliable" as some kind of general rule; all I'm saying is that any non-official source cannot act as one, and cannot make up names of products. You still keep saying this is just nonsense I'm spewing, even though it's clear that you've seen all of these links and scans and images yourself; you're still accusing me of "favorite version"-ing this and that, when I was fixing a link that I happened to notice was broken.
In some other galaxy: you, by your own admission, are in favor of some romaji form of the descriptor+title, which is a far cry from "C1 NES TV"... I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore. Despatche (talk) 18:15, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Try actually reading WP:SPS. And then try reading WP:UCN where you may be surprised to discover that "official" names are not wanted at Misplaced Pages if they are not in common use by the reliable sources and the general readership. Please stop fixing what you consider to be broken when in fact you may be breaking it even further. Think how much more work there will be for someone cleaning up after you if it turns out that your preferred title is less appropriate than the former title. I'm sure you can restrain yourself just for the duration of our conversation.
As for snarky jokes and the rest, please note that I don't think you're spewing nonsense at all. I do think you don't have a great grasp of Misplaced Pages's Verifiability policy regarding appropriate sources yet and I think you are overly concerned with WP:TRUTH. For what it's worth though, I understand where you're coming from. These are counter-intuitive areas of Misplaced Pages and I know I had problems with them myself when I was newer here. -Thibbs (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
More of this accusing and ignoring what I say. You think you're a real angel, don't you?
I have read SPS from bottom to top. There is a reason I selected that one sentence specifically; it's the only one that can possibly apply here. And you do realize that UCN is a gigantic series of if-then checks, right? Do you have any idea how malleable that list is?
Here is what you're doing: ignoring the existence of a box, while also using that box as a source. I'm being serious. Despatche (talk) 18:31, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
OK, the box is next to useless as an actual source for the "official" name. I only provided the scan of the TV set top to illustrate to you that there are many possible ways to interpret the "official" name and that I disagree with changing the article's title to match your personal preferred version based on your personal interpretation of the packaging art. My personal interpretation leads me to believe that the official name (if there is one) is "Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1". I also make that guess based in part on the packaging art. The packaging art, incidentally, was printed by Nintendo and Sharp and that is why it is an SPS (self-published source). A self-published source is one that is published by the same organization about which the claim is made. New York Times is a self-published source when it reports on itself. Nintendo is an SPS when its press releases are printed. Box art created by these companies is self-published materials because it's their product and they're the ones that printed the "source". The whole issue is moot anyway since you can't treat physical appearance of words on a TV as the equivalent of a claim regarding their official status as "official" names. And as for which part of UCN is the only one that can possibly apply here, what about "Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources" (emphasis added)? I'd say that's highly relevant here. -Thibbs (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
The box is the only thing that can possibly provide an official name. There are only two ways to interpret what the box shows: one way with the descriptor, and one without. The rest is so far removed from anything at all that I just can't stop crying. You're not reading a single word I say, and you know it. Despatche (talk) 06:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Can we clarify here, when you are talking about "the box" are you referring to the TV set itself or to the box that it was sold in? I can't find any examples of the box although the TV set seems to be easily findable. Either way, I'm glad you admit that there are at least two ways to interpret what the official name from the box. I'm still not really certain how you can differentiate between descriptor, logo, product code, and official name without descending into OR territory but if you'll notice below I actually !voted for one of the two possible "official" names below as my second favorite choice because it is the one most commonly used in the Japanese RSes and the product is after all Japanese. Basing article titles on terms used by reliable sources is not "far removed from anything at all" and yes, I am reading every word you say. As I suggested below, we can throw the question out to the broader community if you wish. I'd prefer that actually. I'm very ready to accept a community decision that is contrary to my favorite choice of title if that's what the consensus is. -Thibbs (talk) 11:52, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Options

So let's look at what we have so far in terms of possibilities for the title for this article.

  1. SF1 (television) - A term that User:Despatche alleges to be the official name of the product based on his interpretation of the product's box art. He has offered no concrete evidence of this despite repeated requests to do so.
  2. Sharp SF-1 - The most commonly used term based on a recent Google Test.
  3. SF1 SNES TV - The most commonly used term among the Reliable Sources (second highest number of Google Test hits)
  4. Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1 - A transliteration of the term "スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ SF1" used by the majority of reliable Japanese-language sources. (Note: The product was never released outside of Japan.)

I tend to favor terms used by reliable sources so of these I favor #3 the most and #4 in the alternative since this was a Japan-only release. Option #2 is also potentially workable as it follows from WP:UCN. Anybody else have any opinions? I'm also thinking of throwing this out to WT:VG for outside view. Would this be a good idea? -Thibbs (talk) 20:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I can't even respond anymore. You are completely devoted to ruining what little standards Misplaced Pages might actually have. Despatche (talk) 06:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Proposal regarding the system name

It seems like there is an argument over the name of the system. Per wikipedia consensus guidelines there are a few different reliable sources that differ on the appropriate name for the Japanese market SF-1 system. As laid out in the consensus policy as there is more than one referenced position the appropriate way to cover this is to note in the article that the Japanese market SF-1 system was referred to as the "Personal Game Television SF1", and that Kotaku refers to the system as the "SF-1 SNES"TeeTylerToe (talk) 02:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, TeeTylerToe. This issue has gotten to the point where we need the input of neutral third parties like you. I've started an RfC below if you'd like to post your thoughts there. Thanks again, -Thibbs (talk) 03:03, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

RfC: C1 and SF1 console-TV combo units

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I'm writing a single summary to cover two recent and closely-related page moves. Please provide opinions on both articles if possible, but let's centralize all discussion of this issue at this single RfC. The first article is C1 (television) (previously titled "C1 NES TV"), and the second article is SF1 (television) (previously titled "SF1 SNES TV"). -Thibbs (talk) 03:03, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Background summary

User:Despatch originally BOLDly moved the articles to their current names ("C1 (television)" and "SF1 (television)") on the theory that these are their official names. I objected because I could find no evidence that these were in fact the official names and I asked User:Despatch to provide some. Simultaneously I objected on the grounds that WP:UCN demands that "official" names take a lesser position compared to commonly used terms. We've been arguing both points at the same time and I think that has led to some amount of confusion. I've also raised the point that "C1 (television)" is confusingly similar to C1 Television which Despatche recently moved to "C1 Television (channel)" to make way for his preferred version and that SF1 (television) is confusingly similar to the Swiss TV station SF 1 (today called SRF 1).

Regarding the official name:

  • Despatche thinks they are "C1" and "SF1" respectively. I think those are most likely product codes because it strikes me as unlikely that a commercial product would be called something so unmemorable. It may also serve as a shorthand like e.g. "360" for the "Xbox 360".
  • I think the official names are "My Computer TV C1" (Japanese release version), "Sharp Nintendo Television" (North America release version), and "Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1" (Japan-only release). Despatche thinks that everything before C1 and SF1 are descriptors.

In examining the reliable sources on the topic we find the following:

  • English-language RSes for the C1 unanimously call it the "C1 NES TV" (see e.g.: 1, 2, and 3)
  • An English-language Kotaku article (see 4) also describes the North American release as the "Sharp Nintendo Television"
  • Despatche claims that self-published Japanese sources (i.e. the box and TV set) use the term C1 alone as the official name.
  • Self-published Japanese promotional fliers use the term "マイコンピュータテレビC1" (My Computer TV C1) (see e.g.: 5, 6). Ja.wiki (Note: a non-RS) also claims in its lede that this term is the official name.
  • English-language RSes for the SF1 mostly call it the "SF-1 SNES TV" (see e.g.: A, B, and C)
  • An English-language Popular Science article describes it as "Personal Game Television SF1" (see D)
  • Japanese-language RSes for the SF1 unanimously call it "スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ SF1" ("Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1") (see e.g.: E, F, G)
  • Self-published Japanese sources (i.e. the box and TV set) use the term "スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ SF1" ("Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1"), (see e.g.: H) although Despatche interprets the artwork differently and insists that everything before SF1 is a descriptor.

Finally, common usage based on a Google test showed that "C1 NES TV" and "Sharp SF-1" are the most prevalent common terms.

Questions

  • Question 1 - Should we be using the official name of the TV set or the common name of the TV set?
  • Question 1A - If we should use the official name, what is the official name?
    • Options for the 8-bit product include "C1" (believed to be official by Despatche based on the box art and promotional fliers), "マイコンピュータテレビC1"/"My Computer TV C1" (purported to be official at ja.wiki and believed to be the official Japanese term by Thibbs based on the fliers and the TV set), and "Sharp Nintendo Television" (listed by reliable sources as the name of the North American release)
    • Options for the 16-bit product include "SF1" (believed to be official by Despatche based on the box art and the TV Set), "スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ SF1"/"Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1" (believed to be the official term by Thibbs based on the TV set and reliable sources). This product never saw an English-language release so there is no official translation.
  • Question 1B - If we should use the common name, to what extent should we be influenced by what the RSes use most commonly?
    • Should we go with the most common popular name based on a Google Test? Should we use the most commonly used term by the RSes?
  • Question 2 - Are box art, promotional ads and fliers, and writing on the TV set self-published sources or third-party sources?
    • This is really a tangential issue since SPSes can already be used in articles like these where the claim's publisher is the same as the manufacturer of the product about which the claim is made. For some reason this trivial definitional issue has created a great deal of tension in this conversation, though. Specifically, Despatch is scandalized that I use the term SPS to describe the corporate-produced materials he bases his analysis on.
  • Question 3 - Do the words on the box and the TV set represent a claim regarding the official title of the product or are they simply clues related to this issue?

Discussion

Please provide discussion regarding the above questions here. Thanks. -Thibbs (talk) 03:03, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

It's good to talk about the articles again. I totally do not see an issue with "My Computer TV C1" and "Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1", and I never really have. All I ask is that you do the same with articles such as Sharp X1 (something like Persocom TV X1 or Pasokon TV X1) and any other article for a product that uses such clear descriptors. I made the move to "C1" and "SF1" because I was under the impression we do not usually deal in such descriptors; it's all a matter of consistency.
And as such, I think "Sharp Nintendo Television" is probably the best name to use, as we are generally about using whatever official English name we can get. I moved it to "C1" instead because I felt that there wasn't nearly enough exposure of the product under that name to justify putting it "higher" than the original 6 or so years of history. It's similar to the minor European releases of the PC Engine under that title, though that's a reverse case. Sure, the US release wasn't so strong either, but it was something substantial enough. My stance on "original names" doesn't apply much to this Misplaced Pages, no matter how much I want it to.
Moving on, the problem with using names like "C1 NES TV" and "SF1 SNES TV", "Personal Game Computer SF1", etc, is that they don't really have anything to do with the official names, which are not particularly vague here and can be sourced with the subject of the article itself. When you have official names, using unofficial names from this or that source is a serious error. I don't agree with the idea that said subject of the article and the various material created to "explain" it (box, manual, website, etc) can be considered a "self-published source" (the first meaning of WP:SPS, at least); most of this material is simply part of a "set" that also includes the product, and surely the company itself knows the name of their product better than anyone else? This is important because if such material is determined to be an SPS, it can be seen as somehow lesser than this other material. If it has to do with bias, I can understand a PC company or car dealer lying about the product's specs, but I cannot understand why they would lie about a basic fact such as the thing's name; there's no bias to be had there. If you're specifically referring to the second meaning of "sources on themselves", then there shouldn't be an issue as that section states; what's questionable about the official material, when there's no disconnect between it and the product (8 Eye's is a good example of such a disconnect)?
I don't think they are either "self-published sources" (again, WP:SPS) or "third-party sources" (surely those should be Kotaku and Famitsu and the like?), but "official sources" that should be treated with only slightly lower status than the product itself, and certainly a much higher status than third party sources, at least when it comes to figuring out the actual name of the product. We really need better images of the material, no question there. Despatche (talk) 03:53, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Bit of a tangent, but there is no hyphen in SF1! I'm not sure where it's coming from. :P Despatche (talk) 04:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you are differentiating between descriptor and official name. Is this just based on your own intuition? If you examine reliable sources such as example G above, you'll notice that all parts of the name (both what you call the descriptor and what you call the official name) are enclosed in quotation marks indicating to me that they are a single name. The fact of the matter is that what you call the descriptor and what you call the official name nearly always appear together. So I'm not sure what your basis is for declaring one half of the expression to be just a descriptor and the other half to be the official name. Could you clarify that?

As for the hyphen in "SF-1", that's coming from both the English and Japanese reliable sources as linked above. You've made it clear that you don't think these sources carry the same weight as "official" corporate-produced material like box art and the lettering on the TV set, but the name that the reliable sources use may be of interest to those who find force behind the WP:UCN policy which states that "Misplaced Pages does not necessarily use the subject's 'official' name as an article title; it prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." It should be noted as well, that the name/title for these products is rather different than for named people/places or titled media like books, films, and games. Determining a single "official" name for a title-less product like a TV may be much less clear-cut. In general the reliable sources are the best place to look for such a name as they are most likely to be interested in communicating with their readers unambiguously about a single product and least likely to be interested in aesthetic layout and promotional flourishes that corporate-produced material will naturally be filled with. -Thibbs (talk) 04:38, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm trying to compare the C1, SF1, and X1 all to each other, as they're all similar Sharp products made around the same time frame, and also going by the understanding of '80s tech styling, though I'm not entirely sure what to call such a perception (trying to reason out something from a bunch of examples). Note that the Popular Science article is using a "Personal Game Computer 14G-SF1"; the production code is obvious, but where's the rest coming from?
This TV does have a title; it's "スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ SF1" as you say, and it's as easy to understand as any other product, I would think. If it's not, that's because it's so hard to find official sources, and it's somewhat niche. The problem is that this aesthetic layout or promotional flourish is simply far more valid and reliable than any unofficial name any given source wants to give to it; again, the company is going to know more about the name of their own product than anyone else. I'd also like to point out that such things are usually how we get these hyphens, not the other way around. Most of these sources do use "SF1" though, except for that one magazine page (was that the Famitsu one?) and the English sources that use "SF-1 SNES TV".
No, I don't really have anything to answer to WP:UCN with, but I've always felt this obsession with "common names" is in error. While it suggests that there might be exceptions, few would honor such, similar to how few would really honor WP:IAR. Not only that, but UCN has been allowing pretty much anyone to make up their own names for whatever they like, and they rarely notice or care what they're doing. But I wholeheartedly believe it is in the best interest of this encyclopedia to adhere to the given official name as much as possible; the reporting of an easily accessible and proven fact is a good deal more important than preserving the status quo at the risk of errors, and I think an argument for IAR could be invoked, or at least some kind of standard could be established for this kind of stuff. Related, I would also like to point out that it would be hard to compare this example to most of the ones listed for UCN; shortened country and people names are pretty much as official as their full counterparts, just like stage names. I think we should use real names for the latter simply for consistency, but that's another topic.
Bear in mind that Misplaced Pages is the place people tend to get their information from, not these reliable sources. The sooner you get clearly incorrect (according to reliable sources; i.e. the subject of the article itself says that Kotaku and co. are wrong) information off Misplaced Pages, the better. We cannot be "accessible" about this information if it's just going to lead to errors. I think redirects are extremely useful for this; not only does this combo assure that people get here from those terms, it also might get them to learn or acknowledge the correct term. Despatche (talk) 06:56, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Something I'd like to ask: why does the average person need to "understand" a name? A name is a name, and most of the time the meaning is only ever clear to the person who christened the object. Isn't the important thing having the name with which to call the thing, not necessarily understanding what it means? Despatche (talk) 07:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

IAR is a tricky thing to apply and I find it works best as a guiding force for initial editorial discretion in uncontested matters and also rarely to help form a compromise as by local consensus. Basically I think it can be used to explore the areas where Misplaced Pages's rules are not clear anyway. In this context, keeping UCN in mind, I can see IAR guiding the degree to which we follow the common use as determined by the common man (Google test) versus that determined by the reliable sources.

You say that you "wholeheartedly believe it is in the best interest of this encyclopedia to adhere to the given official name as much as possible." Usually the reliable sources are the best place to find the official name, but I agree that in this case it is unlikely that they are all providing official names. For the SF1, I think we've both come to agree that the term used by the Japanese-language RSes (i.e. "スーパーファミコン内蔵テレビ SF1") is the official term. Because this product is a Japanese-only release and thus would not have an official English translation, I do see some sense in using the Hepburn version of this term ("Super Famicom Naizou TV SF1") as the official name. If that were used as the article, title, however, then we should definitely include the term "SF1 SNES TV" in bold in the lede because that's a common term that is used by most English-language RSes.

I disagree with your assertion that according to the corporate sources Kotaku and co. are wrong, though. The corporate sources are acting like normal SPSes in that they discuss only themselves (if they discuss anything at all). You can perhaps use a television box as a source for a claim like "The SF1 comes in 21-inch and 14-inch sizes." Because a "14in." text on the box is pretty clearly making a claim about the size of the monitor. But I don't think you can use the box as a source for a claim like "The official name of this product is the 'C1' and 'My Computer TV' is only used as the descriptor." The same is true about a claim like "Many common reliable sources like Kotaku use an incorrect name for this product." Because the "My Computer TV C1" written on the box is silent on the issue of which part of it is the official name and obviously it would say nothing at all about Kotaku since SPSes tend to be completely self-referential. The text on the box provides clues, but they have to be interpreted by us the editors and in that sense - and due to the fact that personal interpretations may often conflict - that kind of source shouldn't provide the sole basis for determining the official name of the product in my view. -Thibbs (talk) 12:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The text on the box doesn't provide just "clues", it provides the name itself. You could totally say something like "Many common reliable sources like Kotaku use an incorrect name for this product", and it would be reasonable to add something like that if a particular error is heavily prevalent. It'd be better than "doubling up" an unofficial title, which will give it official importance anyway. (I've thrown the whole "descriptor" thing out the window at this point and wholeheartedly support a full title, with the obvious "C1/SF1 for short".)
I think you may be assigning a bit too much importance to the idea that the related material can be considered an SPS, which is exactly what I was worried about. Again, why are unofficial sources allowed to make up official names? Wouldn't it be fair for me to mention Kotaku's (I've really gotta figure out who wrote the original story) own "personal interpretation" of the title? What gives them enough importance to rechristen a pair of 30- and 20-year-old tech products, one of which even has an official English name already? For the record, I certainly wouldn't accept so and so source/s trying to rename some arm of Kotaku, either. Despatche (talk) 19:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
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