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Persistent edit stalking

I have asked User:Nikkimaria to stop stalking my edits, more than once:

• User talk:Nikkimaria/Archive 18#Enough
• User talk:Nikkimaria/Archive 19#Removal of infoboxes
• Talk:Hans-Joachim Hessler#Infobox
• Talk:St Mary's, Bryanston Square
• And in edit summaries and talk pages not logged

as have other editors (e.g. User:RexxS in the first link above and at User talk:Nikkimaria/Archive 19#Infobox; User:Gerda Arendt; User:PumpkinSky at User talk:Nikkimaria/Archive 19#Please stop). Despite this, she has continued to do so for some months. Examples, almost always on articles she had never previously edited, include:

• (newly created by me)
• at Mabel Richardson - since deleted
• at Eric Brooke Dunlop - since deleted
• (newly created by me)
• (newly created by another editor)
• (diff added 18:27, 7 June 2013 (UTC))

and most recently, today: ).

This is both stressful for me; and has (as I suspect is the intention) an inhibiting effect on my editing. I am here to ask an uninvolved adminstartor to caution her not to do so, in accordance with Arbcom rulings (e.g.), on pain of escalating blocks. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:06, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I have asked the editor to address the issues, and warned of a block or ban, at User_talk:Nikkimaria#Persistent_edit_stalking. Bearian (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Well gee, I think we should wait for the other side of the story before threatening to ban her, don't you? Ed  20:31, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm going to refrain from any administrative actions (for several reasons) for the moment, but I do think this is an issue that needs to be addressed. While I had primarily had concerns over some of the "Classical music" articles which Gerda had worked on, if there are multiple editors expressing a similar concern on the issue then I think it's worth exploring. The "info box" issue is a massive time-sink and it appears that there's no resolution in sight - but for now perhaps it's best to just focus on the issue of an admin. edit warring and whatever the proper terminology of the day happens to be. Awaiting input from Nikkimaria. — Ched :  ?  20:36, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
  • All I am saying is that Pigsonthewing has made a prima facie case of Wikibullying, which could result in a ban. I am not sure that Nikkimaria quite understands how serious this issues has become. After the Qworty incident, I think we need to wield the mop a little more. Bearian (talk) 20:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Rushing to wield the mop is just as bad, if not worse, than taking too long. Ed  21:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

It does look a little obvious. This does appear serious (✉→BWilkins←✎) 20:56, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

• Several articles which I think deserve attention in regards to this problem:

• Mass in B minor structure
• Sparrow Mass
• Hans-Joachim Hessler

there are others. Also, re: Bearian, I was certainly not discounting your thoughts - in fact I very much agree, I'd just prefer to hear all sides before dropping any hammers on folks. (per Ed and not wishing to rush to judgement on any topic). — Ched :  ?  21:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Pigsonthewing has a long history of aggressively pushing infoboxes in articles against the objections of those writing the articles, in many cases edit-warring or being incivil in his efforts. Talk:Pilgrim_at_Tinker_Creek#Infobox and Talk:Cosima_Wagner/Archive_1#Infobox are among many examples, going back years, of these actions. He has continued to argue in the face of strong consensus against his position (for example at Talk:The_Rite_of_Spring#Infobox) and has a history of refusing efforts to compromise (see for example the last few posts at Talk:Hans-Joachim_Hessler - a compromise was suggested, I agreed, Andy rejected it entirely) or answer good-faith questions (see for example Talk:Little_Moreton_Hall#Infobox, right before the "Re-Start" heading). As the ArbCom decision Andy cites makes clear, the use of contributions to address related issues on multiple articles is appropriate if done in good faith and for good cause, both of which I believe apply in this case (and many editors agree that Andy's behaviour has been problematic, although some do not). As is clear from the list Andy provides, most of my changes have been simple fixes of his formatting - removing blank parameters, delinking common terms, etc - while others have involved instances where Andy has been unable or unwilling to justify his changes (see for example Talk:St_Mary's,_Bryanston_Square). The two discussions on my talk page also demonstrate that I have explained my reasoning civilly to Andy on multiple occasions and that he has refused to discuss the issue with me. It is not my intention to cause stress for Andy, but I would appreciate it if he would stop causing stress for other editors and make more of an effort to work with others and find means of compromising, whether or not he agrees with the opinions of other editors. I would be quite happy to agree to leave alone any article that he has written, if that would help us to move forward. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:22, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Anyone reading this, needs to be aware that User:Pigsonthewing has been literally causing problems with infoboxes for years. It's understandable that someone would monitor his edits in this area more closely than usual. 78.149.172.10 (talk) 21:39, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

And anyone reading your comment likely wonders why you choose not to sign-in to voice your thoughts. — Ched :  ?  21:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

@ Nikki: re: "I would be quite happy to agree to leave alone any article that he has written, if that would help us to move forward. " - I think that would go a LONG way towards moving forward here. Would you be willing to extend the same courtesy to Gerda?

Now, the infamous "info box wars" are not going to be resolved in this thread - but I offer this: I think it's a common courtesy that would serve the project well to allow the principle author of an article the choice in many formatting areas; including the choice to include or exclude an infobox. — Ched :  ?  21:47, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Please see Richard_Wagner — No infobox and following discussions. In this case the wishes of the principle author Smerus were not respected by Gerda Arendt and Pigsonthewing. There are many other examples, but this was recent. It was provocative because of the high standard of this article, DYKs, the Wagner anniversary etc. --Kleinzach 05:06, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda would be a bit trickier, as our interests overlap quite a bit - I've been doing quite a lot of work lately in expanding Bach cantata articles, and as she too has been working in this area, we already share authorship on a few of them (for example both of us contributed to BWV 39, recently on the main page). Your larger point about infoboxes, though, I think we might agree on. Andy has objected strongly to that reasoning, which has been part of the problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not on board with the notion that the principle author should be accorded this latitude. In fact, as I was formulating my response, I started with the notion that the answer was generally yes, but I didn't agree on the infobox, but as I considered other examples, I began to reject them. Maybe there are some examples, but none come to mind. One of the aspects of Misplaced Pages that is useful to readers, is that they know what to expect—there will be a lede, there will be references, there will be sections, it will be written in a certain style (not a first narrative, for example). While I wouldn't expect an article on a Bach Cantata to follow the same cookie cutter style as an article on a member of the 1927 Yankees, I would expect some similarity between structures of articles in the same category. Maybe we are not yet ready to resolve the infobox wars, but leaving the decision to the principle author is not a step in the right direction.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:34, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• I've interacted with Nikkimaria in the past and I can say from experience that although she seems to have Misplaced Pages's best interests at heart, the zeal with which she accomplishes her missions can go over the top at times. Indeed her block log shows that the line between zeal and combativeness have become blurred for her a number of times in the past. While passion is an important part of what makes good editors great, if the same passion is directed into a negative channel by one of our trusted mop-wielders then the results can be quite unsettling for us mere mortals. Because this isn't the first (or even second) time that this issue of over-the-top passion has become an issue for Nikkimaria, I wonder whether something more formal than her promise to stop editing only those articles that Pigsonthewing has written would be a good idea. Nikkimaria is a valuable contributor here and it would be a shame to see her further tarred by this issue. I'd recommend that she avoid watching Pigsonthewings' edits altogether. There are so many more positive ways that an editor can contribute to Misplaced Pages and Nikkimaria surely has the passion to make great improvements elsewhere on the 'pedia. -Thibbs (talk) 22:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

• I saw this or an RFC/u re Nikki coming weeks ago and divorced myself from the inevitable wiki mess. But Andy posted on my talk and mentioned me above, so I will comment. Agreeing to avoid Andy is a start, but what about Gerda Arendt, and your infobox warring in general? Let's not forget your teamed edit warring over an entry in Franz Kafka's infobox, not mention numerous other articles that had infoboxes. Nikki clearly has an excessive zeal for infoboxes and IMHO should be banned from editing them until she learns that infoboxes serve a valid purpose and many, if not most, users, like them. That an admin is doing this is even more troubling. With that said, I again divorce myself from these proceedings. PumpkinSky talk 22:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
• My 2 cents: Thank you, everyone, for taking this concern seriously. Bearian (talk) 22:42, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh without a doubt this is very serious Bearian, and I never meant to be dismissive of the situation. My own personal choice however is to "fix" things, rather than just toss them out. I think it's very VERY important to understand that .. for lack of a better word .. "stalking another contributor's edits" should be completely unacceptable. And by that I mean in the sense that any attempts to make another editor's time on wiki unpleasant should be quickly stopped. There are and have been accounts which were primarily disruptive, and to research those things is always acceptable. Now, rather than "demand" apologies, or some sort of submissive "I will comply" - I tend to favor a "how do we move forward in a way that's productive to the project" approach. (and I assume everyone here feels that moving forward in productive ways is a good thing). Nikki has offered one step in the right direction here in agreeing to avoid Andy's articles - good! The issue as far as Gerda may be a bit more complicated however. Since both edit in the same topic area (classical music), then they will obviously cross paths. From what I've seen there have been honest attempts on both sides to find a common ground, all in good faith. My suggestion would be that whoever gets to working on an article first be given the latitude to create or improve the article without any harassment. I have some further thoughts developing at the moment, but it may take some time for me to flesh them out. Either way, I think it's imperative that Nikkimaria stop researching what other editors are working on, and going to those pages to impose a particular preference. Nikki has done some amazing work from DYK to FA, and I'd hate to lose that. With that I will leave further commentary to the rest of the community. — Ched :  ?  00:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I have been called to this scene. I assume in good faith that you, Nikkimaria, are as sincerely interested in Bach's works is as I am. However, I don't understand why you needed to change almost every infobox for them BEFORE the talk about the template, {{infobox Bach composition}}, came to a conclusion, sometimes just hiding three lines of a list, sometimes (but not lately any more, thank you) doing so using {{Collapsed infobox section begin}} which I don't accept as a compromise for articles I feel responsible for, as explained on your talk. I would like to get the planned article on Baroque instuments to Main space first and THEN adjust the infoboxes. (No reader has been hurt so far by an abbreviation he doesn't understand.) I trust that we can work it out, confessing that I sometimes thought that a series of reverts was a waste of time, - for those who want to understand what I mean, have a look at history and talk of Mass in B minor structure (a work in progress). With less assuming good faith, it might have looked a lot like stalking. - I would like you and others to show more good faith toward Andy whom I haven't seen "pushing" recently (see the above mentioned The Rite of Spring discussion), but helping (!) with {{infobox opera}}, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:46, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

I've been on the fringes of this issue with the classical music infobox issue. I don't think an interaction ban is appropriate, nor a general editing ban. HOWEVEr, I do have a proposal: Seems to me that the best solution is to ask that Nikki simply NOT edit infoboxes where they exist and not to remove them where they have been placed by others. She can call actual factual infobox errors to the attention of other editors at the respective article talk pages if she sees them, and I see no reason that she cannot continue to discuss the general issue in appropriate fora (the project pages, for example, but not across a dozen different articles),. Thus, I think that a restriction on Nikki either editing or removing infoboxes would be appropriate, as she appears to have lost perspective on the issue. Nikki, is this something you could live with, at least for a while? Montanabw 17:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• Hmm. This is a one-sided discussion with all the pro-boxers out in force, and those who have reservations about boxes absent. I only found it by accident. (The common non-specific title Persistent edit stalking minus Nikkimaria’s name serves to obscure the discussion — assembled admins please note).

In my experience, Nikkimaria has been reasonable and considerably less aggressive than Andy Mabbett and Gerda Arendt. The latter have been developing new infoboxes and applying them to articles without notifying concerned editors. (In this connection, see for example here and here).

I was surprised that Andy Mabbett should make this kind of accusation against Nikkimaria, given that he consistently reverts my own edits (for example: , , , , ], , . As I observe WP:1RR and never complain here, I guess I'm an easy target. I am not sure what 'edit stalking' means in a WP context, but I assume it involves watching another editor's contribution list and then jumping in with an edit or reversion. Well, is anyone seriously suggesting that Andy Mabbett doesn't do this? Kleinzach 04:37, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree, for what it's worth. Pigsonthewing's behaviour with regard to infoboxes at WP:COMPOSERS has usually added nothing but bad vibes to many talk pages. Toccata quarta (talk) 04:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Whenever I have noticed editor Nikkimaria's work, it has been very thoughtful and helpful. I think she deserves full backup here. It's Pigsonthewing who is the big Wiki-problem; he's an incredibly disruptive editor who wastes a vast amount of other editors' time through harassment, wiki-lawyering, and forum-shopping. This guy has been banned before, and it's really time now to make it permanent. Opus33 (talk) 05:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. I have been called aggressive above, and disagree with that as well. Yes, I have added infoboxes to articles other than mine, such as Sparrow Mass, and found the agreement of the principal author. No, I have not added an infobox on Bach, just suggested one. No, I have not even suggested to use one for Talk:Richard Wagner, knowing that the principal authors are against it, I only showed how could look, following an advice of Nikkimaria to have an infobox on the talk page if it was not wanted on the article. The way "vibes" are raised every time something that should be factual and simple (an infobox) is mentioned doesn't cease to surprise me. - What do you think of the compromise that in cases of a known conflict of interests on the topic, changes are not made to the infobox but discussed on the talk? This includes adding one and socalled "cleanup". - This was done for The Rite of Spring, have a look at the ratio of facts and vibes. - If it had been respected for BWV 103 - , , , , , , , , ... ) - we would have wasted less time. Btw, the cantata title translates to "You will weep and wail" ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:13, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I am repeatedly surprised by the passion that this infobox thing arouses in the classical music project. For someone who spends most of his Misplaced Pages time hanging around middle east disputes, where the fate of nations seems to hang on this or that word, this particular issue seems so, so bland. That said, the agreement achieved in the last major discussion on this seems to me a good one- that you should seek consensus on the talk page before adding an infobox. I have done this occasionally at articles about those extremely esoteric composers who interest me, gotten no feedback whatsoever, and then did what I wanted. The one who has consistently ignored this agreement is Pigsonthewing, who goes about planting infoboxes in articles as though they (the articles,I mean) were the octopus's garden. So I join (without a great deal of enthusiasm) Toccata's and Opus's assessment that it is Pigs, and not Maria, who deserves censure here. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, we had an edit conflict, - see the above examples, - I think we agree on less passion on the topic, - censuring anybody seems not the right approach to achieve — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerda Arendt (talk • contribs)

Your statement that prior consent is needed to add an infobox to some articles (presumably classical music) puzzles me. I read both Help:Infobox and Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Infoboxes, both of which discuss article by article consensus, but neither mentions that there are different rules for classical music article. I'm not so sure that such special rules are a good idea, but if the community has decided that classical music articles follow different rules than every other articles, shouldn't this be prominently mentioned in the relevant guidelines?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:37, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Censure is indeed not the correct approach whilst one retains any hope that the contenders in a dispute are amenable to reason and consideration for others. Where one or both (or their partisans) show themselves not thus amenable - and in particular where there is a history of such implacability - what then? I put this question as dispassionately as possible. In this particular instance of pot-and-kettle, my inclination is towards the opinion of Ravpapa (talk). However - Declaration of interest: I have lodged a quite separate - but not entirely spiritually unconnected - complaint about Mr. Mabbett here.--Smerus (talk) 09:17, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Is anyone going to look into what the origins of this editorial disagreement is? Its not uncommon for Andy to try and bully his changes through against well-established consensus with wikilawyering in order to avoid actual debate. Don't let him do it. Make him actually make his case and try to achieve consensus.DavidRF (talk) 10:53, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

How does that excuse, in any way, an editor following Andy around the project, including making plainly pointy edits to pages he's just created? It's one thing for the classical music project and its various affiliates to go around owning pages that its members were the primary contibutors to (it's not a good thing in any way whatsoever, but at least it's something everyone is used to by now), but it's quite another to go stalking new pages created by the Filthy Outsiders (Andy in particular) and enforcing that group's idiosyncracies on them as well. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow. You've completely misrepresented everyone's complaints about Andy. We'd welcome being overruled by "filthy outsiders" (your strawman characterization, not mine) if someone of authority came in and made the ruling. But we play by the rules, we debate for a week or two, we reach a consensus and update the wikiproject style guide and then Andy ignores the consensus and pretends to be unaware of any debate that had occurred. We repeat the debate for another week, reach consensus again and again its ignored. Repeat again, etc. If you get angry and overreact, then Andy uses your overreaction against you. Its infuriating and extremely hard to assume good faith when interacting with him. I don't understand how debate and reaching consensus is considered "owning" while ignoring consensus and refusing to debate is not "owning", although we're used to it by now too. I don't know User:Nikkimaria very well, if she overreacted way too far, then do what you have to do, but don't go around mischaracterizing people's complaints like you've just done. I thought admins at ANI were the supposed to be the voice of reason, but you guys are just as petty and snipey as any other editor.DavidRF (talk) 17:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

"Everyone's complaints about Andy" are not the issue here. I'm well aware of Andy's history on the project and of the various matters in which his behaviour is considered problematic. But as of right now, he's an editor in good standing on the project, and when he's going around making productive contributions to articles (including writing them from scratch) he should not be expected to have to continually look over his shoulder in case an editor holding a grudge is following him and systematically working to undo him. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:30, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Convenience break

Comment I see a troubling tendency of editors lining up into "Andy's right" and "Nikkimaria's right" camps. That approach is rarely helpful, and rarely correct. I see a lot of links included; I've just started looking at them,and asking each about them. I've found less than exemplary behavior by both, so far. I see both trying to make the encyclopedia better, both with views on how that should be achieved, but the views clash. In some cases, they are on opposite sides of a debate which the community has failed to resolve, and unfortunately, have chosen to push their particular view if what is right. While it is undoubtedly more work than picking one to smack around, it would be better if we identified the open issues and attempted to resolve them.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 13:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

My comment above was the results of looking at some of the edits identified by Andy, and observing some editorial decisions made by Nikkimaria. In some cases I agree, in some cases I did not. In no case did I feel that it was as clear cut as a violation of policy, rather it was an interpretation or a gray are where we differ. I've commented at her talk page, and see no need to revisit it here, partly because I reread Andy's report, and see no mention that he disagreed with any particular edit, the only charge is stalking.

As all know, the charge of stalking, or Misplaced Pages:WIKIHOUNDING is problematic. A common set of facts showing up at this notice board involves an editor who makes some mistake, is corrected by a second editor, and then the second editor decides it would be prudent to check through other contributions of the first editor to see if there are other issues. That results in editor one observing that editor two is showing up at articles they've never edited before and making quite a few changes in short order. It sure looks like wikihounding. This behavior is not just tolerated, it is encouraged. As an extreme case, when some has enough copyvios, we go through a CCI which involves review of every single edit. In more benign cases, it involves review of many recent edits by some editor, the placing of that editor on their watchlist (which may be automatic), followed by subsequent changes. All acceptable. In other cases, some editor gets upset at another editor, and decide to stalk their every edit, reverting often, commenting acrimoniously, and not always within policy. Our policy notes that one set of actions occurs "with good cause", while the other is prohibited, but doesn't provide much guidance on how to tell the difference. It doesn't sound amenable to a simple metric, and may need the Potter Stewart treatment.

Andy wants to know what we are going to do about it. Step one is to determine if, in fact, the evidence supports the charge.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:16, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

To pre-empt concerns such as "Our policy ... doesn't provide much guidance on how to tell the difference" I provided a link, above, to a recent Arbcom ruling. Since it clearly wasn't obvious enough, so allow me to quote:

...relevant factors include whether the subject editor's contributions are actually viewed as problematic by multiple users or the community; whether the concerned editor raises concerns appropriately on talkpages or noticeboards and explains why the edits are problematic; and ultimately, whether the concerns raised reasonably appear to be motivated by good-faith, substantiated concerns about the quality of the encyclopedia, rather than personal animus against a particular editor.

Also, please do not confuse my not commenting on the content of the edits given as agreeing with them; my concern here is stalking, and I deliberately addressed only that. You will note that I have challenged the majority, either by reverting, or on the respective talk pages. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:34, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy, thanks for the link to the Arbcom ruing. I just reviewed five cases of wikihounding, which weren't very helpful. I missed the link you gave earlier, and will review it.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy thanks for the clarification that not commenting on the substance of the edits should not be construed as agreement. I do see disagreement about editing policy and appreciate that those were not brought here, which for review of behavior. I had started a post on how to address some of those editing policies, but it didn't belong here, and then I realized you hadn't raised it. I did not mean to imply that your silence here on those issues was concurrence.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:07, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I reviewed 50 edits of Nikkimaria, those just prior to the filing by Andy. (That is probably not enough, but it is tedious, and if viewed as a useful metric, we should find someone to automate it.) In each edit, I checked to see if Nikkimaria was editing just after Andy, or not. In 2 of the 50 edits, her edit followed his. In 48, it did not. This does not preclude the possibility that there were intervening edits, and she was editing something he had edited. That can be checked.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:02, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Numbers don't tell the whole story, but here are some counts

Andy identified 22 diffs in the list above in which Nikkimaria edited immediately after Andy. (The list is characterized as examples, so may not be exhaustive.) 22 seems like a lot, and I confess if some editor reverted me 22 times I'd not treat it as coincidence. But it is relevant to look at the count in light of Nikkimaria's contributions. The 22 diffs cover the time range 21 December 2012 to 5 June 2013. If I count correctly (and I did it quickly) Nikkimaria has over 7000 edits in the same time period. That means less than one third of one per cent of Nikkimaria's edits are in that list, which doesn't, on its face, sound like single minded obsession with another editor. It might be useful to have metrics for cases in which wikihounding has been upheld as well as cases in which it has been dismissed, to see if the metric is useful and how this compares. I do not have those numbers, but if a case of wikihounding exists, it will (IMO) have to be on the nature of the edits, not on the counts. I have identified one edit that troubled me, and asked Nikkimaria about it. I'll keep looking.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:26, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

It is also relevant to look at Andy's count over the same time period. If I counted correctly there are about 9500 edits in the same time period. Which means the 22 edits identified are less than one quarter of one per cent of Andy's edits. This isn't presented as definitive proof, but if editor A targets editor B in violation of policy, I would expect significantly higher percentages.

That would appear to excuse bad behaviour based on good behaviour elsewhere. I don't believe we've ever defined stalking to specifically involve a particular ratio of one editor's contributions in any case. One does not have to devote one's entire wikicareer to following a particular editor for it to be obvious that one has a pattern of following that editor around and making combative edits that have a deleterious effect on community relations. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Suggested close

I'm too involved to close this myself, but I've read enough, and seen too many deficiencies on both sides such that I cannot to recommend that Nikkimaria be sanctioned for wikihouding or Andy for provoking. I know it sounds like the easy way out, but it isn't simply that both have flaws—I've searched several of the edits listed by Andy to look for evidence that either has attempted editing101—go to the article talk page to discuss the issue, and came up empty. (Addendum, I reviewed the 21 diffs and see three cases where Andy bought it up on the talk page. I see three other instances of talk page edits, 2 by Andy, one by Nikkimaria, but not related to each other's edits)

As I posted on each of their talk pages:

I feel both of you deserve trouts, and request that you both drop the sticks, start over, and follow Editing 101 processes. Then, if one or the other does violate policies, guidelines or editing protocol expected by the community, it will be far easier to admonish the guilty party.

I hope an uninvolved admin will close this and urge that they both start over.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 18:36, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

What on Earth does that have to do with the fact that she's stalking my edits - and has tacitly acknowledged doing so here and when I raised the matter on her talk page?

Here's where I raised one such staking on an article talk page (she didn't respond): ; and another: (which is clearly linked in my fist set of links, above( and another: .

But even had I not done so; stalking is prohibited, with few exceptions, that are not applicable here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I for one, did not mention Andy before simply because I know much about this background. The problem with SPB's proposal is that it won't solve anything and we'll see another ANI or RFCU or (yuck) Arbcom case. Something more than a dual trout slapping is needed here.PumpkinSky talk 20:58, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Pumpkinsky, do you have something specific in mind? While I'm still getting up to speed, and may well not have the understanding that others have in these incidents, I see an editor who thinks that anyone wishing to add an infobox to an article requires a consensus discussion at the talk page if an editor disagrees. I think that's a perversion of the intent of BRD, but maybe I'm wrong. We should have a community discussion to see what the community thinks. The same editor thinks empty parameters in infoboxes should be removed, even though the policy doesn't support that conclusion, so as a community, we should clarify what to do with empty parameters. It also appears that some subset of articles (classical music) has their own special rules appliable to infoboxes, which are not discussed in the logical locations. Let's find out if the community agrees, and decide, one way or the other. Several of the disputed edits are traceable to two editors taking a different position on these issues. It is hard to declare that one, or the other editor is in the wrong, if the policies are silent, conflicting or unclear. Color me naive, but I see two editors, both intent on improving the encyclopedia, who have different views about specific aspects of editing policy, and if we resolve those issue, either the issues will go away (ok, no, I'm not that naive) or we will have clearer policy planks to smack around violators.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 21:34, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

How many editors do you see stalking? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy, I'm happy to see that there are some cases where you posted on the talk page, as is the desired process. I see that Nikkimaria did not respond, as she should have. As I mentioned, I did not review everyone of the edits you cited. I found some early in the list that had no such notice on the talk page, and some late in the list. If you think I coincidentally stumbled on a misrepresentation subset, feel free to let me know how many of the reverts were followed by talk page discussions. If that is important. However, your point, it seems, is that she engaged in stalking and has tacitly admitted it. I don't see diffs. You have over 9500 edits during this period, so I don't have time to review them all to search. Can you point out what you mean?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 21:20, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree that Nikki seems to be stalking Andy and Gerda and that issue is more than just the infobox war issue. I've seen many cases like this in my years and I fear the whole case won't be known unless an AC case is opened. That doesn't mean AC is the only solution. This is what I propose: 1) Nikki and Andy banned from editing, adding, or removing any infobox (that way one side can't say they're being picked on) until an RFC on Infoboxes is concluded, 2) the RFC on Infoboxes runs for 1-3 months and covers scope of their use and what to do if disagreements arise, 3) both of them agree to the outcome of the RFC or said person is banned from them for one year, 4) IMHO Nikki is lucky she hasn't been blocked and/or de-adminned for stalking. Just my 2 cents and keep in mind I know much more about Nikki re Gerda than Nikki re Andy. PumpkinSky talk 22:05, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see an RfC on infoboxes. There are a number of issues that should be resolved. You stated that the issue is more than infoboxes. What else? I just reviewed every one of the 21 edits listed by Andy and every single one involves the edit of an infobox. Andy raised this at ANI, not as a referendum on infobox edits, but as a claim of stalking. I think that claim is weak, and should be dismissed. Any proposal to ban should be brought up at AN, not ANI, and should be brought up as a new item. We have set, IMO, a bad precedent in some threads of an editor raising one issue, and the community jumping into different areas. I see that as an abuse of process. (Which does not mean I am opposed to boomerang, or using editors other edits to decide upon remedies). If someone wants to propose a ban covering one or both, they should propose it at AN with the relevant diffs. While the one's that Andy listed might be part of that list, and proposal to ban them both ought to be done by another party looking at contributions of both. If someone wants an Arbcom case, they can propose one. That sounds like overkill, as I have yet to see that this is broader than policy disagreements in several narrowly defined areas of infoboxes. Arbcom's remit is behavior, not tweaking editorial policy.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 23:09, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Nobody else here - not even those seeing me as some kind of satan; not even Nikki herself - has said that there is no stalking. The evidence is plain to see. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:39, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The diffs are given in my initial post, at the head of this section. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Sphil, you say you would like to see an RFC on infoboxes. I call your attention to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Composers/Infoboxes RfC, an extensive RFC on the subject that took place in 2010. To summarize, there was a clear majority of editors who opposed inclusion of infoboxes in classical music articles, and a strong minority in favor (I was in the minority). The conclusion of the discussion was that editors should post to the talk page before creating an infobox. I thought that was an eminently fair and reasonable solution to the problem, and I think that if everyone follows that community decision, the problem will be largely solved. If Andy, Maria and Gerda agree to abide by that decision, it seems we can close this whole thing amicably. --Ravpapa (talk) 08:50, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

That's an extreme simplification of the outcome of that RfC, and under no circumstances does it excuse an editor systematically stripping infoboxes from pages that another editor has written from scratch. A large part of the debate in question stemmed from the fetishing of Original Authors and not editing in ways that would discourage them from creating content. Stalking someone's new pages and stripping content from them couldn't be a clearer violation of that. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:35, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Chris, but it's not an over-simlification, it's a gross misrepresentation. (If I'm wrong, Ravpapa will obviously quote the part of the closing remarks which mandate "that editors should post to the talk page before creating an infobox".) Furthermore, many of the examples I give at the top of this section have nothing to do with classical music. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:29, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

New day, this is (again) too much for me to read. How did we get from stalking to infobox again? - I hope I will live to see the day that the addition of an infobox is considered added (useful, structured, accessible) content and not as "aggressive" or "provoking". - "Did you know ... that infoboxes on Misplaced Pages are used to extract structured content using machine learning algorithms?" (Yesterday's Main page) - Until that day, I will add one only to my own articles and others where I assume the main author(s) will be happy about it. In other cases, I will only mention it on the talk page - or not at all. I will not revert one nor collapse sections. - If everybody involved did the same, we might get a bit closer to the envisioned day, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:54, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the outcome of the RFC. Here are the remarks by the closing admin:

Wikiproject Composers does not recommend the use of biographical infoboxes for classical composer articles.

• WikiProjects are free to publish guidelines and recommendations but do not have the authority to override a local consensus on the talk page of an article.
• The guideline on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Composers has been rewritten according to consensus found in this discussion. (my emphasis)
• There is sufficient support for Template:Infobox classical composer to be created, with a minimal set of fields, and added to articles where there is consensus to do so.
• Infoboxes are not to be added nor removed systematically from articles. Such actions would be considered disruptive.

and here is the guideline that the admin is referring to:

We think it is normally best, therefore, to avoid infoboxes altogether for classical musicians, and we prefer to add an infobox to an article only following consensus for that inclusion on the article's talk page. (again, my emphasis) Particular care should be taken with Featured Articles as these have been carefully crafted according to clear consensus on their talkpages. (See the Request for Comment about composers' infoboxes and earlier infobox debates.

I understand that to mean that you should discuss on the talk page before adding an infobox. Am I missing something? --Ravpapa (talk) 11:06, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, that's an expression of how the members of one particular project prefer to behave. It has the same status as a paragraph on a single editor's user page. Neither the project nor its members own or control articles they chose to regard as within its scope. This is, though, irrelevant to the issue of stalking. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:46, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)MOS states: The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article. and that notice above the edit window says Work submitted to Misplaced Pages can be edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone (emphasis mine). So this concept that there is a "principal author" and they get to decide whether a given article has a box or not isn't supported by the policy. Looking at the first example provided, Forsbrook Pendant, I see that PotW added the box, Nm removed it -- which is in alignment per bold, and PotW restored it and editing ceased. Which is fine. On that particular article, the box provides no information -- it just repeats what's in a very short article and therefore just strikes me as just clutter. In any event, this whole thread strikes me as PotW doesn't want to discuss on a case by case basis whether given articles have boxes or not. Support close as no admin action appropriate. NE Ent 11:11, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not required by policy to have to ask permission every time you add an infobox, there's the concept to be bold. - BUT: I still recommend to do so, at least for a while, for reasons of politeness and respect. But that includes politeness and respect towards those who want an uncollapsed infobox - like me - also. (If you look at the history of BWV 103, mentioned above, that doesn't always happen.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:43, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

My desire for an RfC was not simply to determine whether infobox inclusion in a subset of articles should be handled differently; there are other open issues: how should empty parameters be treated, and what should the rules be for subjective fields. Both of those issues arose in the diffs above, and I have seen the issue of subjective fields causing edits wars elsewhere, so I want an RfC on infoboxes, not an RfC on infoboxes in composer articles. The RfC you linked did not reach conclusions on either of those issues.

Andy notes that the ANI was filed on a stalker issue. I see the discussion drifting to the substance underlying the conflict. I personally think if the underlying issues are resolved, it will make it easier to solve the conflict, but ANI is not the place to debate editorial policy.

Can we return to determining whether Andy has a case, and then we can determine where and how to open an RfC to address the editorial questions?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:34, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

No, NE Ent, it's that another editor is staking my edits. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:53, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy, you keep saying that, but I don't see a lot of support for your position. As you pointed out, Arbcom gave some guidance and indicated that a relevant factor includes "whether the subject editor's contributions are actually viewed as problematic by multiple users or the community". So while you keep posting that I'm missing the point when I focus on the content, I'm doing so because of the ArbCom guidance. I happen to think that the position that infoboxes in certain articles have an exception which isn't even mentioned in Misplaced Pages:Infobox is unlikely to be sustained by the community, if actually discussed, but I could be wrong. If the community clearly points out that the handling of infoboxes should be consistent everywhere, then the reversion of your edits will be a violation and can be handled appropriately. If the community decides that the treatment should have an exception in the case of one Wikiproject, then it should note that in the guidelines, and you will have to accept the ruling. Whether you are being wikihounded is dependent on whether your edits are viewed as problematic, or whether Nikkimaria's are. At the moment, it isn't clear, and I cannot imagine the community will conclude wikihounding has occurred in such a gray area.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 15:27, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

If you don't see support for my assertion that my edits are being stalked, then you need to re-read the above thread. I have already pointed out to you that you are the only person to have asserted that no stalking has taken place. The viewed as problematic point (disputable in the cases concerned) has several qualifiers in the Arbcom ruling, which you seem to ignore. Your focus on content remains irrelevant. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:19, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy, a number of editors have weighed in and we need more. I count one, PumpkinSky, who has supported the stalking claim. You might point to Bearian, but that editor made an early comment before much of the evidence was reviewed, and hasn't weighed in since. At most, that's two, and that's counting generously. You are the one who linked to the Arbcom guidance which suggests we need to find edits by Nikkimaria that are not supported by policy. I've reviewed every single one of her edits, and do not recall that any were challenged by the community, and if I missed one, we need a pattern, not a single edit. That's the standard you linked to, and it does not support you. Ironically, I may be one of your bigger supporters. I do not like someone reverting the addition of an infobox, and I personally think the burden should be on the editor wanting to remove it, so that's why I'd like to see an RfC—I think it might support you and I will be supporting your position in it. But absent that community decision, we have 22 edits by Nikkimaria out of many thousands, none of which were challenged by the community. As stalking claims go, that's pretty weak tea.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:54, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Let me put it differently. In how many of the 22 edits listed did you bring the issue to the talk page, and get community support that your edit was appropriate? I can only find a single post of support, that by User:Magioladitis in Talk:Arthur Worsley. Can you point me to the clause in wp:consensus stating that getting a single editor to agree with you equates to community support?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:04, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Very simple solution here - will Andy and Nikki agree to avoid each other for the next (amount of time here). From what I see here its clear they are at odds about these boxes. We are talking about just a box....something that if there or not is not harming the project - however there interaction is causing problems. So lets deal with what is more disruptive...the behavior.Moxy (talk) 17:15, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

In most, possibly all cases, Andy chose to add an infobox to an article, and Nikkimaria chose to remove it on the basis that she believes it doesn't belong. If we adopt your simple solution, Andy can add infoboxes wherever he chooses, and she can do nothing about it. Is that your intended solution? Andy gets to decide which articles have infoboxes, and Nikkimaria has no say? (FTR, I do not agree with how Nikkimaria is responding, but I'm not willing to buy in to this extreme measure.)--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:38, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not only Andy adding infoboxes - there are many many editors that do just this and a project dedicate to this task. But there is however only one editor following the other correct? They should simply avoid each-other. I take it noone else feels they are being stocked in this manner correct? Moxy (talk) 21:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

First, I appreciate the time and research you've put into this SPhilbrick - and do want to make that clear. Now, as I read this in pertaining to the original post: Bearian, BWilkins, PumpkinSky, Thumperward, and I have all taken this as a serious situation. So I'm not sure exactly how weak that tea really is. I doubt it was ever intended that this thread be developed into a "info box" discussion, although I can't say I'm surprised that it has. I also understand how you would object to my "outside the box" thinking in regards to a common courtesy of a principle author; and fully understood that it is in ways contrary to WP:OWN, however - it's simply my own approach to a situation, rather than something I thought should be codified. Now, getting back to the stalking issue, I think it's only fair to say that Nikki has said: "I would be quite happy to agree to leave alone any article that he has written, if that would help us to move forward.]". Now perhaps that's not a full admission of anything, but I think it's implied that improvements can be made, and I trust that effort will be made. I also have concerns about this response, but note that both Gerda and Nikki seem willing to continue to work through this without intervention; so I'm inclined to respect that as well. I think Andy has made a good case for his complaint, but I'd like to think that with Nikki's agreement that we could mark this as closed, noted, and archived for future reference if needed. I can't say I'll be surprised if I see the term "info box" further up the road, but I'd also suspect that it would be a very unpleasant experience for MANY editors if/when it happens. I hadn't expected to comment further on this topic, but now I have. Hopefully I can walk away from this now unimpeded. — Ched :  ?  20:16, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

If I've said anything to suggest I don't think it this is serious, please point it out so I can correct it. I think when two editors with 140K edits between them are at loggerheads, it is serious. When the underlying editorial issues are issues that have been festering for years without resolution, it is serious. However, Andy insists that the issue is narrow - Wikihounding to be precise. It is that charge which is weak tea. I challenge anyone to identify an ANI case where Wikihounding was upheld where the edits in question were a fraction of one per cent of the total edits. And no, Nikkimaria willingness to leave alone any article he has written is not an admission of wikihounding, it is a good faith attempt to resolve a conflict. What exactly, do you think should happen? Are you proposing that Nikkimaria should be blocked? How long, for what reason, and what rationale? We pretend that the purpose of a block is to prevent further harm, but she's already agreed not to edit an article he writes, so what would a block stop, other than the hundreds of good edits she is making even as we type?--SPhilbrick(Talk) 20:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Weak tea? Perhaps I have another language problem. I don't want to waste time in digging up diffs, and Nikkimaria will certainly have good explanations why she showed up at Peter Planyavsky for the first time the same day I installed an infobox (see talk), and on Andreas Scholl right after I reverted the collapsing of one (that I didn't create). - I am interested in an approach for working together better in the future, letting go of the past, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:00, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Would Andy and Gerda agree not to add infoboxes to classical music articles, or to any others where they can anticipate that a group of editors already at the article will object? And in return would Nikkimaria agree not to follow Andy's or Gerda's edits, and not to remove infoboxes that they have added? SlimVirgin 01:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a positive approach, however any kind of understanding must cover infobox templates as well as articles. The latter is an area where Andy Mabbett and Gerda Arendt have been extremely active— though not Nikkimaria. --Kleinzach 10:46, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I have the impression that we leave the original case more and more. What I did in templates was create one for Bach's compositions (within Classical music from the start), making template Musical composition compatible with it (only because Nikkimaria insisted on not using Bach composition for the Mass in B minor), and help with the wanted one for opera. What Andy did I don't know because I don't follow his edits, but I know that he helped with all three. I don't see problems nor would I call it "extremely active". Back to the original case: with Andy not around, I would simply ask Nikkimaria to avoid edits that can be interpreted as stalking. Peace could be rather easy here, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, we're talking about the addition of extra fields to boxes. For example, Template:Infobox musical composition which now has 44 fields (31 of them visible). About half of these were added by you . Are you willing to undertake to stop doing this? That would be a big step forward.Kleinzach 12:55, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

They were added - as said above - to be compatible with Bach composition when Nikkimaria used this template instead of Bach. (I confess that I was a bit furious when that happened. If such things don't happen again, I will not do it again.) I suggest to continue talking about this very general template (how many fields does Infobox church have?) on the template talk. Back to here, back to my suggestion, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, we all appreciate that you don't edit war, and are willing to discuss infobox issues in a calm way. The problem is that you make changes that affect large numbers of articles, without consulting other editors. Moreover, instead of participating in centralized discussions and respecting their outcomes, you've initiated a whole series of distributed debates, that are repetitive and waste everybody's time. Instead of working on content, we've all been chasing around trying to locate and respond to your latest initiatives. Leaving aside the extensive template changes and just looking at articles, you've started at least five discussions since February: Robert Stoepel on 27 February 2013, Peter Planyavsky on 5 March 2013, Johann Sebastian Bach on 21 March 2013, George Frideric Handel on 25 March 2013, and Richard Wagner on 16 May 2013. Kleinzach 00:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Please look a little closer: 1) Stoepel was in response to a discussion on project:Opera (I DO try to work with projects.) The author installed an infobox. 2) I didn't start a discussion on Peter Planyavsky, I installed an infobox for an article that I had created. (It was promptly reverted.) 3) I started a discussion on Bach, agreed. Some editors said it was too long, and could only be accepted if it contained only a minimum. 4) Trying to learn, I suggested a minimum for Handel. 5) I did NOT start a discussion for Wagner, I followed advice for a solution, see below, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

For clarity: In only one case did I insert an infobox in an article: my "own". Please have a look at the Stoepel discussion, that was efficient and encouraging, if you ask me. It was an article I knew well, I had nominated it for DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:59, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, All you have to do is follow the links I have given above. In each case you started the discussion. I think it would help you if you can be frank about what happened. --Kleinzach 15:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I was learning. From 1) and 2) I learned that an infobox was possible for a composer, from 3) that my suggestion was too long, from 4) that it was not wanted even short, therefore 5) only talk, no hope to have it in the article, no discussion. Why we still had a discussion, I don't know. - I will not even try Infobox on composer talk again - and said so several times in this thread. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

ps: link to another Planyavsky discussion, in case of interest, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

For Andy: "I'll respond to SPhilbrick's questions when I'm able." That goes for other questions as well, please see his talk.

For myself, reply to Slim Virgin: I think my approach (outlined above) covers it, please read. Classical music is against infoboxes for composers. Infoboxes for compositions are used and discussed, an infobox for orchestras was recently developed. I don't think that I EVER added an infobox where I expected a controversy. - Nikkimaria already stopped reverting complete infoboxes (at least mine), but I would appreciate if she would discuss changes rather than making them, see above, diffs of BWV 103, and those are just one example. - My thoughts are more with Andy's health now than with infoboxes. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Andy's health, o come on. Andy is a battle hardned troll, if you cant see that, then I dont know what to say. You surely noticed himslef and jack routinly target editor's pages and go through the same old arguments, bit by bit. And this gang tend to swarm. A nice eg of the MO is . But whatever, keep on going. Ceoil (talk) 08:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I have the odd scar myself from locking horns with Andy, but the very prominent banner suddenly posted to the top of his talk page makes me think it would be seemly to put this discussion on hold until he is back in circulation. What is amiss I cannot say, but you don't post banners like that for something minor. Pax? Tim riley (talk) 21:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, what I'm getting at is that, if this goes to ArbCom – and it has been going on for so long that this seems likely – all parties risk being topic-banned from infobox additions or discussions. So the best thing would be for the three of you (or two if it's mostly Andy and Nikki) to get together and agree a compromise position: I'll stop doing X and you stop doing Y. That's infinitely preferable to having ArbCom decide it for you. SlimVirgin 01:08, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

SV I think this is a sensible suggestion. To begin, I'd like to add to the suggestion that anyone, whether Andy or another editor, cease adding infoboxes as was done here at the time an article is featured on the main page. Editors who curate articles that are featured on the main page have enough to deal with during the stressful days leading up to TFA, (polishing, etc.), and the days after, (clean up, etc.) and should be not subjected to hostile infobox conversations. Thanking our editors for writing featured content would go a long way toward bringing about peace instead of deriding them. My two cents. Victoria (talk) 12:31, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

As far as I know that was the last time (August 2012), so the ceasing you ask for seems to have happened already. - News from Andy is that surgery went well but he will not be able to edit for a week. Can this be closed, asking everybody to assume good faith and look forward? Nikkimaria and I had a nice conversation today ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:37, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

This is alas not quite far enough if you want to stop storms of this sort. I evidence the state of affiars at Richard Wagner when Gerda 'playfully' inserted a infobox on the article talk page while the article was coming up for front page feature. When I archived the lengthy and futile discussion over this the day before the article was front-paged, (and incidentally was thus enabled to feature Gerda's very nice Wagner DYK box there), Mr.Mabbett stormed in with a assumed fury to agitate about the archiving. This is presently the subject of a complaint elsewhere, as Mr. Mabbett is under a permanent ban from interfering with articles when they are coming up for front-page. So Gerda is perfectly aware that the 'ceasing' has not taken place (at the very least in spirit, although I note Mr. Mabbett quibbles about the details). Mr.Mabbett's surgery - and of course I wish the man good health - does not somehow restore the GF which many of us have alas found it impossible, from bitter experience, to assume in his case. It is because Mr. Mabbett and some of those in his train play these silly games that time which could be spent on editing is spent on mutual masturbation (oops - did I say that?) of this sort. I don't exempt myself totally for being such a prat as to rise to their provocations, but occasionally even an equable soul like myself feels the need to try to draw a line.--Smerus (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• September 2012, same thing here, and February 2013, another instance. I keep a very small watchlist and so am only showing the instances of which I'm aware. We lost a very good and productive editor because the September event. I have to ask, why? Victoria (talk) 21:14, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• "Same thing"? - The "Pilgrim"-Infobox was not added on TFA day but later, Little Moreton Hall HAD an infobox, only "invisible". It has a visible collapsed infobox now. Some editors learn, - I miss George, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:39, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Hi Gerda, just to clarify - I posted here in response to a very sensible suggestion SlimVirgin made and I added a concrete example using the words "the days before and the days after TFA" with the suggestion that perhaps that behavior should cease. As SV said "I'll stop doing X and you'll stop doing Y" - my example can be seen as X. This has now degenerated into a "that didn't happen", "that's ceased", "that doesn't happen anymore" when in fact three more examples have been presented. SV is quite right in saying that it's better to hash it out rather than having it go to Arbom, but we'll never get anywhere if it always degenerates in this fashion. I'll step out now; I was simply seconding SV's suggestion. Victoria (talk) 23:30, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• (ec) Cease is not stop, right? - Putting something on a talk page a week or so before TFA, explicitly stating that it was not to be considered for the article but the talk, is not the same as on the article on TFA day, right. (And I will not do even do that again.) When the talk was archived Andy complained that it was in the way of automatic archiving, - was that "stormed in with a assumed fury to agitate about the archiving"? - That's what I am aware of, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:20, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, do not misrepresent! - and do not imply that I interfered with an auto-archive. The page had always been manually archived, until Mr. Mabbett in his self-righteousness unilaterally (without any discussion) converted it to auto-archiving. This is all evident in the page history. I had no wish on the day of the article being front-paged to start another futile argument thread, so left it alone. When issues which I raise are turned into implicit accusations against myself, I detect that the spirit of the master temporarily in exile has found a worthy inheritor.--Smerus (talk) 04:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the details of the dispute, so I don't know all the loopholes, but the best way forward is for everyone relying on a loophole to stop that way of thinking (e.g. I didn't add one, I just made an invisible one visible). The best situation would be if Gerda and Andy would agree not to add infoboxes to pages they didn't create or weren't in the process of significantly improving, and none to pages where they know editors will object (e.g. composers); and if Nikki would agree not to remove any, and not to look at Andy's contribs anymore. If someone does add an infobox and others disagree, open an RfC on the talk page, let it run for 30 days, have an uninvolved editor close it, and stick to the outcome.

Ask yourselves whether you want to go through an ArbCom case about this, and if not make every effort to avoid it. SlimVirgin 03:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Since February, we have had at least 16 classical music-related infobox debates/discussions, plus an unknown number relating to architecture, visual arts etc. Anything that can bring this to an end will be welcome, even an ArbCom case. --Kleinzach 09:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that a lot of time was wasted. Did you count Talk:Richard Wagner? No discussion was needed, the infobox could just have stayed on the talk as proposed by me, following advice by Newyorkbrad and Nikkimaria as a possible solution when an infobox is not wanted in the article. I thought that was a good solution, but if you are so strongly against it, I will not do that again. I don't have to stop adding one to a composer someone else created, because I never did that (as far as I remember). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:43, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

ps: for those who don't look at that discussion (but it's enlightening, promised), here is the link to the advice mentioned (which was removed in the meantime): Place infoboxes on article talk instead of article where their inclusion is disputed (per NYB) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Wagner for example

I am all interested in a good way forward. The past is shown here in a nutshell: "I am entirely against having a infobox for this article. Wagner's life and music is a very complex topic and I am certain that an infobox would damage the article by giving inappropriate or highly debatable prominence to some aspects, and/or by under-reporting other aspects. Moreover, Gerda, as you know, the whole issue of infoboxes is extremely ontroversial and the overwhelming opinion of editors on the Opera, Wagner, and Classical Music Projects is against having them.--Smerus (talk) 15:31, 19 January 2013 (UTC)" (quoted from the FAC in which I was involved)

When I read that I had an infobox ready in a sandbox. I put it on the talk (!) stating that it was not meant to be included in the article. There still was a discussion that would better be archived. I did not mind the manual archiving at all, please see.

I will have to understand how an infobox would damage the article but simply accept that view. I don't add infoboxes to articles (!) where I expect controversy, - as far as I remember I never did that, so I can easily agree to the request just above. - I just added one more item to the Wagner "DYK" collection, feel free to take it to the Wagner talk, Smerus ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:27, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

User:May122013 and issues at Rob Ford

May122013 (talk · contribs) - Rob Ford (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Previous accounts:
  • Mr.grantevans2 (talk · contribs)
  • Mr.grantevans (talk · contribs)

For clarification, I have not edited the Rob Ford article or talkpage, I was made aware of this issue via BLP/N.

The facts: in May, Gawker reported that a staffer had seen a video, allegedly of Toronto mayor Rob Ford smoking crack cocaine, and making homophobic and racist statements. The Toronto Star picked up the story, and two of its reporters saw the same video. Since then, the story has been picked up by approximately every single news outlet there is, been discussed on talk shows (Leno, Letterman, Kimmel, Fallon, Colbert, Stewart, if my memory is correct), and generally become Kind Of A Big Deal. The article as written at the time of this post is neutral, sourced, and reports factually on what has been said in media outlets.

User:May122013 has tried everything they can to remove this information from the article, including:

• At least a dozen outright removals of the content, all of which were reverted quickly, with multiple edit summaries telling May122013 that there was no consensus for the removal
• Many attempts on the article talk page to remove the content, starting here with an attempt to paint it as unreliable when Gawker and The Star had a minor difference in one thing that was said about the video. Then a claim that the video is a hoax. Then attempts to (mis)use policy to remove it, different attempts at BLP/N to have the material discredited, most recently claiming that Gawker and The Star are primary sources. I could go on but I'm tired of combing through diffs. Just see the user contribs and the talk page. Basically May122013 wants the material out and will use everything and the kitchen sink to try and remove it.
• And has wrapped it all up with accusing me of sockpuppetry, refusing to offer any proof of the accusation, and refusing to retract. (Including an attempt to evade responsibility by saying they only said 'possible', and they suddenly have 'time committments' until June 18 which do not allow them to address the accusation. Which is without merit, by the way. I removed the accusations after telling May122013 twice to do so. An admin has also told May122013 to provide proof or retract.)
  • User has retracted the above accusation. — The Potato Hose 04:10, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

In summary, May122013 is essentially an SPA, is editwarring (in slow motion), and refusing to listen to consensus. I suggest either a topicban or a block until s/he agrees to stop disrupting the article and talkpage and wasting everyone's time. — The Potato Hose 16:34, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Quick comment on the sockpuppetry accusations, I did indeed ask May122013 to retract or take to SPI, which has been backed up by Dennis Brown (talk · contribs) here. GiantSnowman 16:40, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

BLPN link - Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Rob Ford. GiantSnowman 16:43, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• I had already warned the user previous that a WP:BLPBAN or block may soon follow if they continued to edit war against consensus. There is a lot of wikilawyering going on with this user, and a single-mindedness that smacks more of agenda than neutrality. Dennis Brown / 2¢ / © / @ 16:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

It would be a lot easier - but some of their concerns are, indeed, BLP concerns. I find it hard to totally dismiss a person who is right on something at least -- too many are right on seemingly nothing at all. <g> Collect (talk) 18:11, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Currently the article is in decent shape and a number of editors have ensured it is neutral and not violating BLP concerns. Then we have an editor who many times a day shows up and reverts and wikilayers attempting to expunge a neutrally reported incident. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• I striked the "possible sockpuppet" comment. 2 editors suggested that I do that on my talk page and I do regret saying that. I right now publicly offer my apology to User:The Potato Hose. May122013 (talk) 21:12, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have a lot more than usual work activities over the next 10 days which severely limits my access to the internet, so please allow me at least 12 hours to respond to any other matters that anyone wishes to discuss. May122013 (talk) 21:36, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with the delay. Having editors with different views is our strength here, but you have to know when to pull back and accept when consensus on an edit is against you. We all are sometimes on the short side of consensus, you aren't unique in this. Calling someone a sockpuppet is disruptive and looks as if you are trying to undermine their argument using ad hominem. If you think they are socking, by all means, file at WP:SPI or ask an admin for assistance. There is a fine line between spirited debate, and wikilawyering and disruptive behavior. I don't think that blocking you is a done deal here, but it is on the edge. It is up to you. You need to demonstrate a willingness to work on these issues by both your words and deeds, or you may force us to consider other actions as a last resort. Dennis Brown / 2¢ / © / @ 22:15, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

It's worth noting, given the ad hominem attacks, that the user in question has repeatedly complained about them, while happily using them him/herself. Without devolving into ad hominems myself, it's useful to consider that someone who complains about others doing something, while doing the exact same thing themselves, is probably therefore not acting in good faith. — The Potato Hose 04:10, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support BLPBAN May1222013 has been arguing and edit-warring against consensus using poor arguments, as mentioned above. Also, in his two previous accounts he was tendentious in arguments about including rumours that the American president Barack Obama was not born in the U.S. and that his autobiography was ghostwritten by a former radical left-wing terrorist. He also argued for including salacious details of allegations of sexual assault made against a former president of the World Bank. While he claims that the Toronto Star is not a reliable source for Rob Ford, he presented the far less respected Canada Free Press as rs ifor another article. He appears to apply different standards for BLPs, depending on his perception of the subject. TFD (talk) 00:20, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Response to TFD :TFD I want to also apologize to you for having been un polite towards you. I'd also like to address your points above, which you have caused me to think about intensely. It is reasonable for you to be saying that I apply different standards to different BLPs, as that may well be how it appears. But in actuality I apply the same 3 standards to all BLPs; which may be standards that I may have to drop in order to be more objective here on Misplaced Pages. Those standards are "consider the source"; "no censorship when it comes to public officials", and NPOV.

• With Ford those standards conflicted in my mind, yet I could not get above the fact that all of the "smoking crack" allegations originated with anonymous drug dealers and also the general perceived bias against Ford in the BLP ( as has been mentioned by dozens of other editors over the past 3 years ), so I thought exclusion of the crack allegations is the best path.

• With the Obama birther event, that's been about 2 years ago and please note that I even received a barnstar for my work on that subject: see User_talk:Mr.grantevans2. That event, to me, fell into the category of "no censorship" because the origination for those allegations came from several elected and high profile politicians and established business leaders like Donald Trump.

• With DSK, the head of the IMF at the time, the details of the alleged assault originated from New York City police investigators and had been published by RSs so they fit into my "no censorship" standard as well. In that case, I feel the details were important because they painted a much more of a predatorial attack than most of the mainstream press pictured. Also, DSK at that time was an employee of all of the taxpayers that contribute to the IMF, like you and me.

So, ironically, as you perceive that differing standards are my problem, I think, now that I've had the night to "sleep on it", that my main problem has been applying any of my personal standards when editing Misplaced Pages. So my objective, should I be permitted to continue editing Misplaced Pages, is to leave all of my personal standards out of my thinking about how an article can be improved. That may not be ideal, but I think that in my case its necessary. May122013 (talk) 12:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The fact remains that a good number of people take exception to your methods and for good cause. The previous warnings stand, and if there are future issues, I would still be inclined to use the BLPBAN or other methods to prevent disruption. I'm hopeful we won't have to revisit this. Dennis Brown / 2¢ / © / @ 11:47, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I understand and I can assure you this will not have to be revisited. May122013 (talk) 12:50, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

This user has repeatedly disrupted the editing of this article by reverting completely what consensus has decided, by each time simply repeating unproven "WP:BLP" arguments. . His arguments are based on his own original research that Gawker editor John Cook and two Toronto Star have fraudulently reported that they witnessed a video of Rob Ford smoking crack and that the video is a "hoax." Ironically May122013 is breaking WP:BLP by making such claims with zero sources to back up such claims. His disrupted editing is based completely on his original research that is not supported by any source.

He keeps on starting new sections on the Rob Ford talk page of red herrings like the Gawker editors no longer have access tot the video somehow meaning the reporters magically never viewed the video , there was once a casting call for Rob Ford lookalikes , there's a "doppelhanger" of Rob Ford in Toronto and even the graphic Gawker used in its story as reason to delete all content of this controversy.

No matter how much it's explained to him that the content does not violate BLP (as he does) and that consensus is against him, he simply employs WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and repeats his same original research "hoax" arguments and reverts all content of other users about this allegation.

And as for his WP:NPA violations, I'll leave an example of when he was asked if he had a conflict of interest in editing this article: "No conflict at all; can you please inform us if you are under 14 years old ?"

This person has shown nothing but disruption and a lack of respect for other editors and consensus and needs to be banned from editing this article, if not all articles. --Oakshade (talk) 04:37, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

In this edit, the user has undertaken to not make this a problem in the future. I think without evidence to the contrary we should probably believe that. But probably a good idea to keep an eye on things. — The Potato Hose 04:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Syngmung

Section header shortened because it was messing up the display of the TOC on this page. Original title: User:Syngmung engaging in WP:SYNTH, WP:CANVAS and inserting references to rape and flawed comparisons to numerous articles — PinkAmpers& 15:01, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

It's there in the title. I would like to propose a TBAN on "rape" for the foreseeable future. Syngmung apparently has some sort of axe to grind with the US military stationed in South Korea and the South Korean government that facilitates them. I am not a fan of either of these parties myself, but I can't condone any of the following actions:

• SYNTH on 1995 Okinawa rape incident, insisting that kidnapping and forcible rape of an elementary school student "is compared to" prostitution, citing two sources, one of which does not appear to mention Okinawa and the other of which mentions the incident but makes no such comparison.
• Pretending in the article body to be citing a book but in fact giving a review of the book in the reference, implying that he/she has not in fact read the book but is inserting an out-of-context blurb in the article nonetheless.
• Inserting disproportionate discussion of rape by U.S. soldiers after WW2 into an article about brothels and apparently using a hypothetical suggestion about setting up brothels as an excuse.
• Canvassing numerous users with a misrepresentation of an ongoing deletion argument (accusing the delete/merge !votes of trying to "hide" something) and canvassing numerous peripherally related WikiProjects with a misrepresentation of his/her opponents arguments/motives in an edit war.
• Inserting links to articles on prostitution (particularly in South Korea) to the "See also" sections of unrelated/peripherally-related articles.
• Adding a subsection about rape to the "Dramatizations of the invasion of Normandy" section, and then failing to get the point on being reverted numerous times.

I know the user is going to accuse me (again) of being an SPA whose purpose is to edit war with him/her. This may be taken as true, given the circumstances, but please consider that I was editing Misplaced Pages (anonymously) some years ago, and came back when I noticed during my browsing that someone was adding inappropriate rape/prostitution references and comparisons to an article (the Okinawa one) that I just happened to be reading. Now that I have that out of the way can we focus on Syngmung's behavior? The user got blocked a few days ago for edit warring and when unblocked went straight back to adding the same kind of questionable material, and I just wanted to bring this to the community's attention, at least to the point that it hasn't already.

Eh doesn't afraid of anyone (talk) 14:32, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

(BTW, I know my diffs are a little bare, but in order to give a full context for this user's violations, I would need to basically cite every single edit the user has made for the last week or two. A look at the contributions page should not contradict anything that I have just said, though. Eh doesn't afraid of anyone (talk) 14:45, 8 June 2013 (UTC) )

Nonsense. I have already talked some of my points according to reliabled sources. Eh doesn't afraid of anyone argued according to his OR without sources. Besides, I have already been bloked as being edit wars. It is unfair, cos Eh doesn't afraid of anyone are bringing the former issues. So, now I make great effort to talke in talk page. But Eh doesn't afraid of anyone ignore my effort to talk in talk pages and try to exclude users who dont match with his view.--Syngmung (talk) 15:13, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Removing material is never OR. Drawing a completely original comparison between the forcible rape of a child with prostitution is OR, even if one has two separate sources that each mention one but not the other. Please stop making personal attacks against me if you can't demonstrate with diffs -- which users have I tried to exclude? What is my "view"? I have engaged you on talk pages every chance you have given me -- remember that one not long ago where you accused me of promoting a POV by deleting your rape subsection, to which I responded immediately? Eh doesn't afraid of anyone (talk) 15:28, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• I have blocked Syngmung for one week for resumption of edit warring at Rape during the liberation of France and for canvassing. The topic ban discussion can continue.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:22, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban As noted in the above report, Syngmung has an axe to grind on the topic US military personnel in Korea and is routinely engaging in sustained edit warring and the misrepresentation of sources to push his POV across multiple articles. Nick-D (talk) 00:25, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of User:Syngmung from all topics regarding U.S. military personnel. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 11:31, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Syngmung violates the non-neutral tone requirement (WP:NPOV) in rape articles. The false use of sources is a huge concern. The coatracking of outside topics—Syngmung's pet peeves—is evident in edits like this one in which Syngmung tacks on something about Asian comfort women at the end of the Rape in France article. This editor is not here to build the encyclopedia; instead, the narrow goal is to raise anger. Note that a topic ban will be as effective as a full ban, simply because the editor has demonstrated no other purpose. Binksternet (talk) 03:13, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't think he is intentionally misrepresenting sources. But his poor English skills are a bad ingredient for a sensitive topic. I lolled at for instance. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 06:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban coatracking, nopv violations, OR, the list goes on. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:20, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban POV pushing, misquoting sources, mixing subjects on a page.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 17:52, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring by other editors on the same topic

• I have notified User:NorthBySouthBaranof of this discussion as well. He edit warred with "Eh doesn't afraid of anyone" more than Symuyang did on that one article, at least recently , while Symuyang inserted that rape stuff in several articles. I don't think NorthBySouthBaranof or "Eh doesn't afraid of anyone" should receive any sanctions though. In the latter case sanctions would be rather ineffective anyway. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Please re-read WP:EDITWAR. If two editors have a content dispute and they resolve it peacefully by discussing it on the talk page, it's not technically an edit war. Eh doesn't afraid of anyone (talk) 12:46, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

After you two edit warred for a while, you indeed did compromise on the talk page. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 13:07, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Technically, he reverted me twice while I was trying to discuss on the talk page (I opened a section immediately on my initial deletion). BRD, man, BRD... Eh doesn't afraid of anyone (talk) 14:58, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Except that, as I pointed out on the talk page, you blindly reverted me twice as I was attempting to rewrite the section without commenting on the changes I made in a good faith effort to address your concerns, some of which were well-founded. You didn't say "Hey, good progress but I disagree with X Y and Z still," you just hit undo. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I did not blindly revert anything. I asked you to discuss on the talk page, as I had already posted there. The correct course of action would have been not to revert me blankly and then make a series of rapid-fire edits in order to fix the section, but to fix the section in a single edit. And, again, the first time I reverted you you hadn't fixed anything, but went straight ahead and blankly reverted me again. You also consistently set up a straw man by saying "these are reliable sources -- why are you removing them?", completely ignoring my given rationale.

Anyway, this thread isn't about your behavior or mine, but Syngmung's. If you don't have an opinion on whether Syngmung should be TBANned, then please refrain from bringing up off-topic discussions (that goes for you too, 86.121.18.17).

Eh doesn't afraid of anyone (talk) 23:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The problem with your editing, "Eh doesn't afraid of anyone", is repeated edit warring. It's very easy to get on the high horse from your SPA account that you'll likely abandon in the next few days like you did with your previous ones. I know of another editor who registered an account to simply get others blocked for edit warring. That did not end well. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 09:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Reporting long-term problems with other editors is one thing; the evidence can be judged by others on its merits, as it has been above. In contrast, trying to get several other editors into trouble by aggressively and repeatedly edit warring with your highly disposable current account is quite another issue, making you look like an agent provocateur. And discussing the behavior of all those involved in an incident is permitted at ANI, as explained at WP:Boomerang. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 10:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The ironic thing is, you arrived here solely to harass me, it seems. You have consistently misspelled Syngmung's username, and you seem to have totally missed the part where Syngmung (whose English is always at least comprehensible) has deliberately synthesized separate sources and/or pretended to be citing a book while in fact citing a blurb in a newspaper. And now, despite not having anything to add to this discussion, and even though NorthBySouthBaranof have not (and never have had) a significant dispute with each other over the content of the article, and the so-called "edit-war" lasted a total of two edits by me and two by NBSB, you insist on opening a separate subsection about me. Why are you doing this, may I ask?? Eh doesn't afraid of anyone (talk) 13:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you are constantly a victim. Someone consistently pushes the undo button from your accounts & IP addresses when you're not looking. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 13:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

And speaking of harassment: what is this? 86.121.18.17 (talk) 13:37, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Persistent copy violations from User:Gunkarta

I was checking out a series of bilateral articles created by Gunkarta (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and found a persistent and serious pattern of blatant copy violations. Gunkarta is an experienced editor so there is no excuse for this blatant violation of WP rules. I would suggest a topic ban for creating bilateral articles but leave it up to the community to suggest a course of action. Below is only what I believe is the tip of copyright iceberg:

LibStar (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Libstar, I examined for numbers 31 through 69.  The pattern I found is that articles you create with over 1000 bytes are copy and pastes that are missing attribution history.  #30 is a special case which I have addressed here.

• ,
• , ,
• ,
• ,

Please see Misplaced Pages:Copy-paste#How about copying and pasting from one Misplaced Pages article to another?.  Unscintillating (talk) 19:31, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

thanks for letting me know. I will use an edit summary in future, but I am curious why you are not commenting on the serious copyvio in my original complaint. Is there a reason why not? LibStar (talk) 03:22, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a copyright attorney, are you?  In your edit comment you identify as a "blatant" case of copyvio.  The text transformation is not cut and paste.  What criteria did you apply to determine that there was a copyvio?  What criteria did you apply to determine that it was "blatant"?  Point 4 of Copyright#Fair use mentions "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work".  Have you developed an opinion about the change in the potential market value of the copyrighted work?  Unscintillating (talk) 04:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

What is your goal here? Are you looking to catch me out? The point I am making is that this user has a history of copy violations, yet all you are interested is trying to paint me as the bad one. LibStar (talk) 06:04, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

thanks Crisco for your wise words. Unscintillating has gone off on some tangent trying to pursue me for some unknown reason and ignoring the extent of user gunkarta copy violations. LibStar (talk) 09:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Again with going off on your own vector, Unscintillating, particularly since any Misplaced Pages editor can (and should) report possible copyright violations - even if they are not lawyers. Yes, this is blatant copy-pasting, in violation of copyright. I note, however, that it is not uncommon for Indonesian editors (particularly those raised on the Indonesian Misplaced Pages, which has much more lax copyright policies), so the assumption that he understands that it is wrong may be faulty. Has Gunkarta been notified and/or adequately warned? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:20, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi guys.., currently I've been working on expanding articles on countries of Indonesian bilateral relations as my own personal project. I did not realize that I have caused such problems on copyright stuff. Surely I'm not a master in this laws matter (and certainly not the fan of it), and yes Crisco.., I think Indonesian wikipedians are somewhat not quite that good (or rigid) on "grasping" the idea of copyright stuff and tends to lax in this department. But one thing I know is at least the things written in wikipedia articles should be verifiable. Of course during my work, I referred to respectable trusted sources such as embassy websites, foreign relations office/ministry, and news. I did not realize that the referencing, citing and quoting I did was a copyvio (too much of them perhaps?). I think I need to work my senses to know a healthy balance between a good citing and the so called copyvio. One thing I can sure you all, that this is not my intention or some deliberate actions on my side. I'm not really familiar with this copyvio rules in articles. I only familiar in copyvio on wikimedia commons materials such as images and photographs. Let me know where did it went wrong. I think the wise decision is, to tell me which parts where there is too much quotations that could be considered as copyvio, and let me try rewrite it in my own words (despite my weaknesses in grammars, vocabularies etc). Any contributions and helps to improve the Indonesian bilateral relations articles are welcome and greatly appreciated. Thanks... Cheers.. Gunkarta (talk) 07:22, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Hi Gunkarta, glad to see you here. The issue is with how close the wording is (close paraphrasing, if you will). Compare, for instance:

Source:

The Goethe-Institut Jakarta organises and supports a wide range of cultural events to present German culture abroad and foster intercultural exchange in Jakarta. As the regional institute for Southeast Asia, Australia and New Zealand, the Goethe-Institut Jakarta increasingly exploits the potential of the regional relationship networks that are borne of both its cultural history and the effects of globalisation, in its regional projects and current plans. ... the Goethe-Institut Jakarta has a national network of representatives who promote German as a foreign language in Indonesia ... We provide language courses, workshops and seminars for teachers in teaching German as a foreign language, not to mention a comprehensive examination programme. ... The info centre at the Goethe-Institut Jakarta provides information on current aspects of cultural, social and political life in Germany.

Article:

"It organises and supports a wide range of cultural events to present German culture abroad and foster intercultural exchange in Indonesia. It promotes German as a foreign language in Indonesia by providing German language course, also provides information on current aspects of cultural, social and political life in Germany. As the regional institute for Southeast Asia, Australia and New Zealand, the Goethe-Institut Jakarta increasingly exploits the potential of the regional relationship networks."

Bolded elements are verbatim from the source. We need to reword it, extensively to, make this information useable. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:30, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Crisco, thanks for pointing and explaining the problems. I think summarize or rewording would be good. I don't mind to reduces the information (details) from the sources as long as the points is made, which is "Goethe Institute provides German course in Indonesia and promotes their culture".Gunkarta (talk) 07:49, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Summarizing or rephrasing would be perfect. For example, "It focuses on cultural events which present German culture and language to Indonesians. Indonesians who wish to learn more can take language courses and also read about aspects of life in Germany." — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:23, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

section break

I've found a few more:

LibStar (talk) 16:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Given the scope of this, perhaps it's best that a copyright investigation is opened over at WP:CCI, since we've found quite a few issues. Wizardman 23:22, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Agree. Gunkarta, are you still following this? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:33, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Done: Misplaced Pages:Contributor copyright investigations/Gunkarta. MER-C 10:21, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I'm following this, go ahead investigate all my edits. However I can sure you, I did not breach this copyvio rules deliberately. I just did not familiar with how much citing sources could be considered as copyvio. Do what you can to repair the articles, I understand wikipedia have sets of rules to follow.Gunkarta (talk) 13:27, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Laurel Lodged: topic ban

Laurel Lodged has a history (years) of making mass changes to articles on issues to do Irish counties. Typically his/her changes involve making "corrections" to whole swathes of articles at a go changing references to "traditional" counties to "administrative" counties (e.g. County Tipperary to Tipperary North). Typically, these changes are controversial and without consensus (or under the pretence of some consensus).

The problem with Laurel Lodged making changes like these has been raised at WikiProject Ireland-related pages on many occasions. At this stage, Laurel Lodged knows that these changes are controversial and that the community does not appreciate his/her contributions of this kind. One of the last times this happend, I raised the question of a topic ban. There wasn't consensus then as to whether Laurel Lodged should be topic banned or forced to first seek consensus before making changes like these.

A new thread has been opened on WikiProject Ireland to do with a new set of mass changes Laurel Lodged's has made. I propose now that Laurel Lodged be topic banned from making changes to do with Irish counties and their names.

I've left a message on the WikiProject Ireland thread inviting comment here on whether Laurel Lodged should be topic banned. --RA (talk) 00:27, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. For some idea of the seriousness of the issue, see this AN/I thread, Request from uninvolved admin, from January this year. I might add that none of the other editors in that discussion have been involved in any disruptive mass editing since then, but Laurel Lodged still continues as before. Scolaire (talk) 08:24, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Reply to Scolaire 1. the quoted ANI case has nothing to do with the current case. The two are unrelated. This is about Counties of Ireland whereas the cited case concerned the Gaelic Athletic Association and their peculiar use of GAA county. 2. That case did not result in any censure for me or the other cited user - Brocach. So my account is still in good standing despite your attempt to impugn my reputation with the slur. 3. I have abided by the ruling in that case, even though I argued against at the time. 4. I defy you to find any edit of mine since that date that is in defiance of the decisions arrived at in that case. 5. No evidence of any misuse of wiki guidelines has been produced in support of the current case as presented (as opposed to the different case cited). 5.On any reading of our interactions over the years, which have usually been on opposite sides, it will become obvious to an uninvolved reader what may have been the true motivation for Scolaire's support in this case. There was a passing bandwagon and Scolaire gleefully jumped aboard. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:09, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Disagree. Both cases involve you trying to substitute all county names with the administrative county name. How many times have you been involved in discussions that point out to you that the traditional name is the most commonly used name, and the one that currently enjoys consensus? The point *you* should have taken from previous discussions and ANI wasn't that you "weren't censured", but that the reasons you provided for switching to using the administrative county names haven't been accepted by the community, and although the previous ANI was focused on the context of GAA county names, it did not give you license to switch to a different usage context and carry on as before. --HighKing (talk) 11:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Reply to HK In the cited ANI case, it was not about my inserting county names. It was about my inserting the letters GAA into (shock/horror) GAA articles. So the two are not comparable. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:31, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support The strength of the previous case noted, plus the current case - added to the incredibly vindictive and attacking post above - all add together to say "topic ban as a minimum". Past behaviour always comes into play - especially if that behaviour has not demonstrably improved. To actually say what Laural said above in full view of administrators and the community really shows that they're not here to play nicely with others. As such, a 6 month topic ban and indefinite civility parole is supportable AND supported (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:14, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support I thought a Topic Ban has received support previously, and I support the current request for one. This editor is simply not learning that these edits have really no support or consensus. Given that these exact types of edits from this editor have been discussed on several occasions before (especially the whole "traditional" county vs "administrative" county) and didn't find support, the onus was on the editor to ensure that future edits were in line with existing norms. --HighKing (talk) 11:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
• Support County names should be used sensible. Sometimes "North Tipperary" is the best option, sometimes "North Tipperary" is the best option. But the endless edit wars and disputes are tiresome and damaging to the encyclopaedia. So I support a) a six month topic ban for Laurel Lodged, b) a 2 month topic ban for everyone who starts edit warring about county names, and c) an investigation into ways of avoiding these conflict (i.e. rules when to use the name of an administrative county and when to use the name of the "classic" county) The Banner talk 12:38, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Reply to Banner I agree that edit warring is tiresome and damaging. I fail to see how topic banning me while leaving the other warring parties untouched is either just or sensible or in the best interests of Wiki. There are always at least two parties to a war. Why would you assume that my arguments are less worthy than the arguments of the other parties? Let them present their arguments and then come to judgement. Those arguments will probably revolve around WP:Common. My arguments revolve around Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Use modern names. As HighKing commented in the WikiProjectIreland page, "There's a difference of opinion on what the "county" name is, as a location for towns especially in Tipperary.". That's very true - there is a difference of opinion and there is conflicting Wiki policy guidelines. In my opinion, I am perfectly entitled to rely on the "Use modern names" guideline. There is nothing, nothing to say that it is in any way inferior to "Common". To say otherwise is just a matter of opinion. In short, who's to say that the edit warring is not caused by those editors who obstinately stick to the "Common" policy while refusing to acknowledge the presence, let along validity of "Use modern names". Let he who is without sin in this edit war cast the first stone. Secondly, I also agree with Banner when he says "sometimes "North Tipperary" is the best option.". That is to say, context is all important. To give an example, there are times when it is best to speak of Byzantium, other times when it's best to speak of Constantinople and still others when it's best to speak of Istanbul. To stick rigidly to Istanbul when speaking of Constantine the Great would be wrong, even though the 3 sites occupied the same ground at various times. Conversely, to say that the Fatih Sultan Mehmet Bridge is located in Constantinople is also wrong. Yet this is precisely what many of the supporters here would have us do - to ascribe historical, defunct administrative names to current realities. Context is important; when dealing with modern realities, use modern names. This position in neither capricious, OR, disruptive or unsupported by wiki guidelines. I have every reason to believe that the opposite is true. That there is a claque of irredentist editors (excepting Banner) with a misty-eyed vision of a 32-county state who wish to pursue an "A Nation Once Again" agenda through wiki, is no reason for me to admit that facts are not facts. Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:59, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Reply to Laurel Lodged - there's the flaw right there. You're pushing "I've got a policy on my side" while ignoring the general consensus and other policies. Also, name-calling won't get you very far no matter how frustrated you feel. --HighKing (talk) 12:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support - North and South Tipp have been around a very long time and have never really caught on as a method of location. They are just local government areas. It's the same in the UK. There are plenty of boroughs and districts which are never used in addresses and, effectively, these instances are also addresses in the sense that their usage is intended to convey to the reader where a place is. Tipp on its own locates a place perfectly adequately. Thats the sensible option. Atlas-maker (talk) 16:09, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Reply to Atlas I'm afraid there are a number of holes in your argument. Firstly, this is not about post codes or addressing issues, it's about counties. As proof of this, see Dublin 4 which is a perfectly legitimate postal district but is not a county (though the denizens of that district might like it to be. But that's another story). You say that "They are just local government areas". This is incorrect - they are counties per the Local Government Act 2001. County Tipperary, by contrast is not listed in that Act as a county. While we may speculate about that omission (was it an accident of legal draftsmanship? Was it deliberate? Was it a sop to nostalgia?), such musings cannot find their way into Wiki. It is what it is. The use of the word "just" is also inappropriate as it implies that NT and ST somehow occupy a space and status that is less than County Tipperary(CT). It is as if CT fulfills some function other than demarcating areas of local government. It does not. If you know of some higher order functions that CT fulfills but which NT / ST do not fulfill, please let us know. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I never said it was about post codes. On the contrary I made clear it is about location. The reason we write that Dublin is in Ireland, or Clonmel is in Tipp, or Atlanta is in Georgia, is to assists users in 'locating' those places in their own minds as they read. Funnily enough, what most people use (and I guess there is a possibility that you don't do this, but most people do) is the various parts of an address. If you were posting a letter in Dublin to Clonmel, you wouldn't need to add 'Ireland' at the end of the address cos the chaps in An Phost would be quite capable of 'locating' Clonmel without it. Readers here c×an't be relied on to have the same knowledge as An Post workers, so we give them some help. We add some extra geo-location info to help. That this info is also shared by address databases is neither here nor there. It's just useful geo-location meta-information that we format and structure into readable prose. Atlas-maker (talk) 06:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Ownership issues at Template:Attached KML

For reasons discussed at length at Template talk:Infobox Australian road and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Australian Roads/RfC:Infobox Road proposal, {{Infobox Australian road}} now uses KML data, with related KML files stored as subpages of the template. Infobox Australian road is managed by WikiProject Australian Roads, while editors at Template talk:Attached KML are trying to force a move of KML data at Infobox Australian road to subpages of Attached KML. This seems to be a clear case of editors at one template asserting ownership of all KML files, which is highly inappropriate, as is any attempt to assert ownership. Attached KML certainly has the right to use KML data but, like pretty much everything else on Misplaced Pages, it doesn't own it, as much as it would apparently like to. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:58, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I think calling this an "incident" is overstating the issue. The locus of the dispute is that up to now, all KML data has been stored in subpages of {{Attached KML}}. The Australian road editors want to include the KML links in the Australian road infobox, which is a reasonable thing to do, albeit one that I (and other editors) disagree with. What the disagreement is over is that KML data is being copied to subpages of the infobox, which several editors have agreed is a bad thing because it causes data duplication and results in data being stored in several different locations. Ultimately the whole thing will become moot when Wikidata advances to the point that this data can be moved over there. I may be wrong, and I am involved so that may be clouding my judgment, but at this point I would say this is still just a content dispute and no admin intervention is required—discussion is going on, people are making points, and certainly people's dander may be up a bit, but there's nothing close to the metaphorical Misplaced Pages fistfights that usually get dragged to ANI going on here. —Scott5114↗ 10:09, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for providing us with the required notifications which you didn't, and thank you for explaining what admin action you are requesting which you also didn't. This is borderline forum shopping. --Rschen7754 10:12, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a case of one template asserting ownership over content used by another template. WP:OWN is a policy so administrator intervention to enforce a widely accepted policy is more than warranted. I haven't specifically addressed any editor, just a group, so it's not really necessary to notify particular editors and since this is the only place I've sought intervention, it's not forum shopping. Please also remember, although this directly involves {{Infobox Australian road}} there was an active move to not address the issue at that template by Scott5114 who, coincidentally, is also the creator of {{Attached KML}}. At best it's disingenuous to accuse me of forum shopping. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:20, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I apologize if you feel that I was attempting to forum shop or slip something by you; that was not my intention at all. I was simply trying to keep there from being two discussions on the same thing occurring at the same time, and I figured that it would be better to have the discussion continue at the Attached KML talk page because that page is watched by more editors (many of which had already commented there). We could have just as well moved the discussion to WT:HWY or somewhere else, but I figured it would be simplest to just continue debate at the template talk page. I wish you hadn't opened this ANI thread, because now we have a third page where discussion on this topic is going on, and it's slowly morphing into a meatball:ForestFire.

I don't really think there are OWN issues here; you may see it that way, but I assure you that we are simply proposing what we feel is the best technical solution to the problem. It's unfortunate that you disagree with us, but disagreement is something that happens regularly on Misplaced Pages, and we have to rise to meet the challenge of working through it and finding a solution to that. —Scott5114↗ 10:30, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

When you posted this message at Template talk:Infobox Australian road I responed with "Since we're discussing this infobox, I don't see why we should discuss at that template". To date you have made no attempt to address that. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:53, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, we're not just discussing the infobox anymore, but rather the larger question of "how shall KML data on the English Misplaced Pages be administered"? That question should be answered with the involvement of all of the people who have a stake in KML data. For better or for worse, the only page that all of those people watch is Template talk:Attached KML. (Many of them are not involved in the road projects per se, but have a programming or general geography interest.) —Scott5114↗ 11:05, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The move proposal has nothing to do with how KML data on the English Misplaced Pages is administered. It's aimed purely at Attached KML taking control of KML data used by another template. If you want to discuss the administration of KML data, open an RfC and then decide what to do with Infobox Australian road's KML data based on the outcome of the RfC. How KML data should be managed in the long term has already been determined - the plan is to move it to Wikidata. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:17, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I must agree with AussieLegend, KML data is not owned by Attached KML or the people who watch its page, if another wikipedia group wish to use KML for their own purposes. There is nothing stopping them. The long term goal is the same anyway (migrate to wikidata). Im sure we can even discuss ways of keeping the two sets with exactly the same content (which shouldnt be a massive task given the low number of KML files) -- Nbound (talk) 11:30, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see ownership issues here. Notices of discussions were made at WikiProject Highways , WikiProject Australian Roads , and Infobox Australian road , with discussion occurring at Template talk:Attached KML. The discussion brought to attention here regards moving KML file subpages from one template to the other. This would not prevent anyone using the KML files in any way, and would only require a line or two of infobox template code to be changed. The KML files should really be in the File namespace, rather than template subpages, but that is not currently possible. - Evad37 (talk) 14:34, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Posting some notices doesn't negate WP:OWN. The discussion is about removing content from Infobox Australian road, so the discussion should have continued at that template's talk page. It shouldn't have been moved to another template where the editor would receive a more sympathetic ear. The people at Attached KML have a vested interest in maintaining control of KML data and the instigator was that template's creator. Even the appearance of ownership is inappropriate. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:52, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think that this is all a storm in a teacup. The WP:OWN issue is the "formal proposal" at Template talk:Attached KML. The entire discussion went from 0 to 100mph within less than a single day (since notices were posted), and noone can restrict access to wikipedia files to any other groups on wikipedia without some reasoning that consists of more than not wanting to have two copies (as there is no centralised source yet). Perhaps if instead of trying to push through the issue to a conclusion so quickly, all parties could discuss it a little further, and hopefully a bit more calmly, perhaps a compromise can be found?

I would suggest we drop the "formal proposal", and get back to a discussion for at least a couple of more days, with the possibility of compromise in mind. Hopefully we can all agree with that :).... (and as I stated back there I dont even care so much how this pans out as long as the functionality works) -- Nbound (talk) 14:56, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

That would seem reasonable. --AussieLegend (✉) 15:02, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The formal proposal that has a wide margin of support. That's called consensus. Furthermore, there is no WP:OWN issue here; WP:OWN would be restricting the use of KML to the {{Attached KML}} template. I suggest that this thread be closed. Sometimes, neither side is going to budge, and straw polls have to be used to reflect where the consensus is, and we have to go with that. That's how Misplaced Pages works. --Rschen7754 17:31, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Any kind of binding consensus that takes place on wikipedia generally requires a bit more time to allow editors to commment. Move proposals take 7 days, RfCs take 30, (and both generally follow long discussions on the matter anyway) the more informal consensus building ways don't have to follow those guidelines, but the time so far is far too short. American editors involved may not realise it's actually a long weekend here and many editors will likely be taking a short vacation/holiday. Straw polling two sides that "wont budge" goes against the very ethos of "consensus building". Are you saying that either side is so stubborn that they are unwilling to compromise or be swayed? As Ive stated, I dont care how this turns out as long as it works, but Im still worried about how this is essentially being steamrolled through so quickly in the name of a supposed consensus. AussieLegend has at least indicated above he is willing to return to discussions with a view that he may have to modify his opinion. I hope that you and others would be willing to do the same. Leaving things as they are for a few more days isnt going to hurt anything or break the encyclopedia. :) -- Nbound (talk) 01:27, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I also note that the most recent vote seems to have highlighted a need for categorisation in their opinion also. -- Nbound (talk)

"AussieLegend has at least indicated above he is willing to return to discussions with a view that he may have to modify his opinion." Can you please point to this? I sure haven't seen it. Sometimes, when building consensus, there is going to be a minority of people who disagree. On a large site like the English Misplaced Pages, we can't cater to everyone, especially when the options are so binary (we can enable Pending Changes or we can disable it. There's no middle ground... for example). I'm very concerned at the stalling tactics that are being used here - I think AussieLegend is hoping that people will forget about this and that he will be allowed to continue doing whatever he wants, ignoring what the actual consensus is. --Rschen7754 01:37, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, my post stated "I would suggest we drop the "formal proposal", and get back to a discussion for at least a couple of more days, with the possibility of compromise in mind. Hopefully we can all agree with that :)", and his immediate reply was "That would seem reasonable.". -- Nbound (talk) 02:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

For all we know AussieLegend might be quite happy to keep the files at Attached KML if there is some decent form of categorisation (instead of 4000 files all together, IIRC - there are already some suggestions of how by Floydian and WOSlinker)... There simply hasnt been enough discussion at this stage to start taking strawpolls in the name of consensus. -- Nbound (talk) 02:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The formal proposal is just a proposal. It has no effect until it is closed. That could be a week from now. That could be two weeks from now. And votes can always be changed. In fact, it's generally premature to close a proposal while discussion is going on (which it clearly is). Thus, I see no reason why starting a proposal was inappropriate. --Rschen7754 02:12, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The formal proposal is automatically assuming the outcome of discussions, there are likely compromise options which havent even had time to air yet, yet its already been claimed by yourself that the opinions are binary (removal vs. keeping) and there is no middleground, which appears to be untrue amongst both supporters and those currently opposed to the removal of the fork (some kind of categorisation at least for AU KML files?). The proposal is premature, delaying it by a couple of days isnt going to hurt or break anything. -- Nbound (talk) 02:25, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, the KML files can be in one place or they can be in many places, so in that regard, yes, it is binary. And I am still awaiting an answer to my question of how administrative assistance is needed here. I'm obviously recused from this thread, but if I wasn't, I would be closing this thread to that effect. --Rschen7754 02:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

It is binary in that regard, but the discussion has bought up the possibility of more nuanced options than that. There are shades of grey/gray. Lets see if any of these alternative options bear fruit? :) -- Nbound (talk) 02:46, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough. So (obviously pending AussieLegend's agreement) can we agree to close this thread? --Rschen7754 02:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good to me :) -- Nbound (talk) 03:54, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The ownership issue DOES exist, despite the claims of Attached KML supporters. They are asserting control of all KML data on Misplaced Pages by insisting that other templates comply with Attached KML's method of storing data, i.e. storing ALL KML data on Misplaced Pages as 4,300+ subpages of Attached KML even though the other templates do not use Attached KML. That's the very essence of WP:OWN. Attached KML is saying "You can use our KML files, but you can't have your own set because they're ours" and quite simply, Attached KML doesn't have that right. Despite Rschen7754's assertion I have siad what intervention I'm requesting: "WP:OWN is a policy so administrator intervention to enforce a widely accepted policy is more than warranted." Administrators can close the proposed move as violation of WP:OWN and direct that discussion should take on the talk page of the relevant template (i.e. {{Infobox Australian road}}). --AussieLegend (✉) 05:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I am just going to stop responding, as I am not going to respond to such a statement that is so far off base I don't even know where to begin. --Rschen7754 05:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm really sorry that you feel that way, because it really only helps demonstrate my concerns. --AussieLegend (✉) 20:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Inappropriate canvassing

Please note that inappropriate canvassing has taken place: --Rschen7754 11:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Now you're being quite ridiculous. The move proposal instigated by {{Attached KML}} editors directly affects {{Infobox Australian road}}, which is managed by Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Australian Roads. I've merely notified the members of WikiProject Australian Roads listed at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Australian Roads#Participants. That's more than appropriate. --AussieLegend (✉) 11:59, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

That notice was barely neutral, and a more proper audience would have been notifying all the people who have posted a KML and have shown a definite interest in the integrity of the KML system. --Rschen7754 12:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The notice identified exactly what was happening in as neutral a manner as possible, and directed editors to all three related discussions. It was entirely appropriate. Attached KML doesn't have a thing to do with Infobox Australian road yet a discussion was opened at Template talk:Attached KML for the the express purpose of asserting control over data used by Infobox Australian road. By discussing the matter there you've stacked the votes in your favour. To accuse me of vote-stacking, given the ownership issues and that vote-stacking is reprehensible. I'll add that I believe you're only calling it canvassing because involvement of WP:AURD members at a template they'd normally have nothing to do with would bring some balance to a discussion that currently favours the opinions of the group of Attached KML editors who would normally have nothing to do with Infobox Australian road. --AussieLegend (✉) 12:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

All 0 of them. --Rschen7754 12:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Just a passing comment, what if they agree with the proposal? If I remember correctly, Nbound (talk · contribs) did a similar "canvass/notification" (though they didn't realise the conflict between editors of the two projects) on user talk pages (, , , [just to name/link a few) for a RfC about a proposal about the Infobox Australian road be merged/replaced with Infobox roads. I think we should deal with the "votes" as they come and hope someone not involved closes the discussion when they feel that the support is there and the concerns are addressed. I don't totally agree with AussieLegend's wording but it seems to be neutral enough.

The way it's going, this will end up being a sorry mess at ArbCom if the hostility continues. Bidgee (talk) 13:04, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Archived without resolution

Archived. As I can't edit more than 5000 characters, I continued here, which has also exceeded 5000 characters. But it may be also archived without admin decision. I request you to decide about claim of User:Rahuljain2307 over Chanakya that being Brahmin and reading Vedas does not necessarily mean being follower of Hinduism. His claim makes all sources and all existing knowledge about Hinduism irrelevent. neo (talk) 12:46, 9 June 2013 (UTC) Uninvolved non-admin: Just passing by, but if it hasnt already it might be more appropriate to have an RfC or DRN case. After which the user can then be banned for edit warring or something more specific if they continue their disruptive behaviour. -- Nbound (talk) 03:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately no admin has come forward to make any comment to resolve this dispute. this government website says Chanakya was brahmin. this academic website of Chanakya National Law University says that Chanakya studied Vedas. here Bihar Chief Minister Nitish Kumar is comparing Brahmin caste with Chanakya. this website of Outlook (magazine) refer Chanakya as Brahmin. as per this translation of Chanakya Niti Shastra wrote by Chanakya himself Chanakya was devotee of Vishnu. I reject extremely weird claim of reported user that being Brahmin, reading/preaching sacred religious Vedas does not mean being a Hindu. He may also claim that praying before Hindu deities does not mean being a Hindu. I reject it. As per sources I am going to make edit on Chanakya to state his religion as Hindu. If reported user resort to edit war I will come back again. neo (talk) 08:17, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

That evidence alone should prevent a revert without reasons why those sources are wrong or another source stating religion or conversion. Your opening post was very unusual and difficult to read; but ANI is not really for content disputes. WP:DRN is a good spot for these, but the talk page should always be the first place to discuss things. If they don't discuss, then it is far more likely to get blocked when an editor just blindly edit wars without reason or evidence. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:39, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Yup ... ANI is not for content dispute resolution - especially when the original post was unclear to begin with (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:43, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if I failed to draft the edits in my bad Indian english. And since beginning I knew only ANI. Now I am learning. There is another dispute with reported user about moving articles to IAST spelling names without any consensus. I going through proper process to resolve dispute as you can see on Talk:Mahāvīra. First I sought 3O, now Rfc. Hope that dispute will be resolved. neo (talk) 15:40, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Rahuljain2307 has come up with another weird reason and has reverted my edit on Chanakya. This baffles me and if admins do not guide me, I am in total paralysis on wikipedia. neo (talk) 12:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Again, take it to WP:DRN ... stop hitting your head against the wrong wall :-) (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't check Talk:Chanakya. He reverted my edit only because my refs are not in proper format. Should this be reason to revert edit? Can this be reason to go to DRN? He is coming up with weird arguments and you are considering it content dispute. neo (talk) 12:33, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

That user is moving pages without consensus, blanking and redirecting sourced articles like this without even edit summary. It will take very long time in DRN to restore articles. Why ANI exist? OK, Bye. neo (talk) 15:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Dodging a topic ban?

Recently user Jax 0677 received a topic ban regarding templates. Off course, he was not happy with that but now I have the nasty feeling that he is dodging the topic ban with the help of an assistant/meatpuppet, in this case User:Frietjes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs).

Evidence (more or less a random choice):

• Involved template: Template:October Tide
• Remark Jax to Frietjes: dd. 9/6/2013 03:19
• Addition to template by Frietjes: dd 9/6/2013 13:53

• Involved template: Template:Bill Medley
• Remark Jax to Frietjes: two remarks, last at 8/6/2013 22:06
• Addition to template by Frietjes: two edits, last at 9/6/2013 13:50

• Involved template: Template:D Mob
• Remark Jax to Frietjes: dd. 8/6/2013 19:11
• Addition to template by Frietjes: dd 9/6/2013 15:22

I did not check every item but due to me nominating the templates, they are on my watchlist. And suddenly I see a lot of Frietjes-edits on templates that I have recently nominated, show up. Too many to be a coincidence. Request for help from Jax to Frietjes: here, here, here, here, here and here. These request started as soon as the day after the topic ban was issued. And as far as my superficial check went, Frietjes responded in most cases.

It is possible that I am overly itchy to Jax after all the trouble in the past, so I would like to hear other opinions. The Banner talk 17:01, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

seems like this was constructive comment, which is in contradiction to starting an ANI thread. The fact that you see a lot of my edits could have something to do with the comments that I am making on the respective TfDs. Yes, I do read the notes posted on my talk page, and sometimes I add links to templates and articles in response to those comments. I also express an independent opinion at TfD, and more often than not, concur with the deletion of the associated templates. of course, that hasn't stopped you from attacking me there as well. also interesting that I was only recently informed of the topic ban, and the editors invited to comment on it did not include me. Frietjes (talk) 17:08, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I have both the nomination pages and the individual templates on my watchlist. And even after a clear warning you continued. The Banner talk 17:39, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

sorry, but how is saying "this starts to look at dodging a topic ban..." issuing me a "clear warning"? I am guessing English is not your native language, and I was never informed that I or anyone else was topic banned, nor was I provided a link to any topic ban. Frietjes (talk) 18:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

It is a good old classic to attack the messenger when you have no arguments against the message. The Banner talk 18:46, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Can both of you please just drop it? This is not helping. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ 18:53, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Circumventing the ban wouldn't surprise me in the least. IDHT is a common issue with that editor. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:48, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
• I do agree that Jax is circumventing the topic ban by notifying another editor (a regular participant in TfDs) of articles that exist or that he has created on topics for which a template just happens to be nominated for deletion. I have no issue with Frietjes on this matter. Frietjes can do his her own due diligence on templates at TfD without Jax's sketchy attempts to manipulate their outcomes. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 23:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
• IMHO Jax is circumventing the topic ban by his communications to Frietjes....William 14:17, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
• Open and shut case. Jax is editing by proxy - Frietjes is the proxy. Jax needs blocking, Frietjes needs a strong final warning about editing on the behalf of blocked or topic-banned users. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 16:16, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
• Reply - I made no "Request for help", I have violated no terms of my topic ban, and have worked very hard to obey the ban (which places no restrictions on editing any articles). --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• You made a comment to another editor who then went on to add it to a template. Your topic ban was broadly construed. This is basically an attempt to side step that ban no matter how innocent you try to make it out to be. Blackmane (talk) 17:56, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
• Technically, you didn't make a request for help. Instead, you dumped a load of things on Frietjes' talk page for them to put in for you. You're circumventing the topic ban, and you know damn well what you're doing. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:58, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Reply - Frietjes and I are not collaborating. Sincere apologies if that is how my communication came across. Now that multiple editors have the same issue, I will do my best to stop leaving this type of message from here on out. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't know what's allowable, but I'm in favor of a one-week block and another six months added to the topic ban. I'd like to see Jax learn some things on his own because it always takes more than multiple editors having an issue before he gets it (and, apparently, even a topic ban isn't enough). Many of us have asked Jax to take a step a back, maybe a forced break will do him good. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 18:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with you, Star. The topic ban is broadly construed. Anything that can justifiably seen as infringing on the topic ban requires a block, and a resetting of the ban, clear and simple. I still don't buy for a second that Jax didn't know what they were doing. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Reply - I am "topic-banned from editing or creating" (as well as discussing) and that's all. The accusers have the burden of proof regarding "for them to put in for you", not I. I cannot control what others add to Misplaced Pages. --Jax 0677 (talk) 23:55, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• This has nothing to do with what others have done, it's what you have done. Frietjes could have completely ignored your messages, but your repeated notifications to him her (and only him her) of other existing articles and articles you created which are directly related to topics that have navboxes at TfD proves your motives were to do nothing other than to sway the outcome of deletion discussions. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 00:39, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Pssst, Frietjes is not a him but a her The Banner talk 01:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
    • It isn't easy to tell unless an editor has a name that obviously one gender or the other.----->...William 01:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
      • Just a case of doing your homework... The Banner talk 01:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• I hope everyone remembers that "blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users". From my contact with both editors, I believe they both got the message that this sort of behavior is not allowed under the topic ban. If that wasn't clear before, I would say that it is clear now. I move that we drop it and move on. I'm off to work on closing a tiny fraction of the massive number of Jax-related nominations at TfD. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ 01:27, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Sorry to be harsh, but I don't think you are an uninvolved admin... The Banner talk 01:42, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
    • And neither are you? I am simply expressing an opinion like the rest of the editors in this thread, most of whom are more involved than I am. Don't worry, this is the last comment you will see from me in this thread. Plastikspork _―Œ 03:20, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Frietjes will have gotten the message. Jax will pretend that they have, and revert back to their old ways within a week or two. That's what I've seen them do every time they've been informed about incorrect edits. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• We should keep the focus on Jax's continued disruptive behavior that needs to be deterred so he is encouraged to become a more productive and congenial editor. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 03:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Reply - I strongly agree with Plastikspork, that this should result in a written warning, not a ban extension (one additional month at a maximum, and definitely not a block). --Jax 0677 (talk) 08:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• How on earth does this work, since you're talking about yourself? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 10:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• Sorry, Jax, no more leniency from my side. You made a deal with Plastikspork to save your failing templates by moving them into your own userspace. Your dumped links on Frietjes talkpage with the unwritten request (but everybody can see that) to fix templates that are subject to a deletion discussion. No, Jax. The Banner talk 10:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Preventative block is required This is a gigantic load of pigshit, if you ask me. As I am the one who formally enacted the topic ban, I have been monitoring Jax's talkpage (as well as Banner's, BTW). I have found the utter level of obfuscation by Jax, combined with massive wikilawyering to be frustrating to say the least. For example, when asked a simple question about a template that Banner was searching for, Jax claimed that he would not respond without a formal representative of the WMF permitting it. However, on the other hand, we have Jax breaking the spirit of the topic ban with these interactions with Frietjes. Apparently it's fine to put roadblocks up when someone is cleaning up your crap, but on the other hand encourage someone else to try and save your crap? Violations of the spirit of the topic ban are just as serious as outright violations. Jax - your templates ARE THE PROBLEM. Do not under any circumstances attempt to "save" them, and ensure that you help people try and clean up your mess. I'm wholly in favour of a preventative block for a minimum of a month so that Banner and others can complete the process of cleaning up the shit without continued interference from Jax. This month should allow at least 75% of the problematic templates from being nominated, discussed, and likely deleted. For the very clear violation of the topic ban, I recommend a 6 month extension of the ban. As for Frietjes - I'll give the benefit of the doubt that she was unaware that her actions-by-proxy were inappropriate (✉→BWilkins←✎) 11:13, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• While strongly protesting the idea that Frietjes has anything to apologise for (meatpuppetry? Really?), it's pretty obvious just from Jax's replies here that circumvention was the goal, and the less said about the train wreck that was the ban-enaction thread the better. On the other hand, I don't see what a block accomplishes here. Call this a final warning to go and do something productive. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 13:52, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• I'd also AGF that Frietjes was not aware of Jax's topic ban, being a bare 2 lines in a morass of TfD noms. Otherwise I'm on the fence about a block at the moment. Blackmane (talk) 15:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• How many chances does someone get to change bad and disruptive behavior? From an increasing amount of his template creations being nominated a full year ago, to editors showing growing concern and offering some friendly advice on his talk page, to an RfC/U in March and a topic ban less than two months after the RfC/U opened, to multiple efforts to dodge such a ban that brings us to this AN/I, Jax has been unable or completely refuses to comprehend how he is disrupting the Misplaced Pages community while he continues to defend his actions as an innocent misunderstanding. I doubt at this point that a block will deter Jax's behavior as I believe he will continue to test the limits of his topic ban even after such a block is lifted. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars 17:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Reply - Lukeno94, I am allowed one vote like everyone else. As far as I know, the part of the topic ban about leaving messages on other people's pages was made up after the fact. This is exactly why I asked for the rules of the ban to be laid out explicitly. The Banner has referred to me as a lazy cow, and others have used profanity on my talk page. I have not interfered with anything, and IMO the evidence is circumstantial. Many of the XfD's are from my work way back in 2012. --Jax 0677 (talk) 17:21, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Editor who thinks "People in Misplaced Pages care too much about sources" being disruptive

User:Lguipontes, who thinks "People in Misplaced Pages care too much about sources" , keeps reverting in Template:World homosexuality laws map for no valid reason whatsoever. All countries in yellow enforce anti-gay laws (see ILGA map: ), yet the editor keeps reverting to this version . I warned him already , but doesn't seem to work. Cavann (talk) 17:04, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Deus meu, por que tive a impressão ontem à noite de que seria HOJE de que eu iria para a AN/I?! (Oh, my God, I had the impression just yesterday at night that TODAY I would go to AN/I?!) I may only be a witch... And I thought I would never be exposed to teh dramaz since I'm lazy, slow and pacifical like that animal I put on my page and talkpage and I forgot the English name but I can't look at it in another tab because exactly in the last 10 minutes I lost my PC's mouse (I remembered!) a slot so I would solve anything with civilized talk... It only needed a small amount of irony and bad mood due to headache. If there's a God, he's laughing at me now. -.- Lguipontes (talk) 17:51, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

For those wanting to see my reasoning of why it does include countries which do not have it always enforced, please see the historic of the usage of the file on Commons. Yeah, I thought we don't depend solely on a single source to build Misplaced Pages consensus, I didn't even went to check this out as I thought Cavann had the perspective of one who just found out that map as it was the first time I got him passing by that area... I'd be happy to 'obey' if it was already known Ron 1982, Kwamikagami, L.tak, Chase1492, Flyer22 or any other editor to the map or person otherwise involved in discussing it or interpretations on LGBT rights changes across the world before. I'm sorry for the slow edit war and anything, I will not revert him back. See, for Flying Spaghetti Monster's sake, no need for reporting me to the administrator noticeboard on incidents. Sorry for the bad English, I'm too nervous, too stressed and too busy right now to revise it. Lguipontes (talk) 18:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• • This appears to be resolved with Lguipontes' promise not to revert again. But it has to be said that if you really believe the "People in Misplaced Pages care too much about sources" line, you might want to either reconsider your position or consider a different website to edit. Misplaced Pages doesn't need another editor who's clueless about the ethical and legal importance of strong sourcing, and people who act accordingly tend to find their stay on Misplaced Pages very short indeed. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:19, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

You better not care about me. There's an army out there to un-edit specific parts about Brazilian culture, language and whatever that are obvious to Portuguese speakers and can be found in a due search in minimal sources by ourselves, and that are silly things not demanding scholarly work, but still, they will get reverted. Still, Rio de Janeiro is the kind of article that keeps being changed to non-acceptable points by anonymous users, but no one cares. Doubtlessly, the way Misplaced Pages policy on sources is applied is bad.

I was scared of this thread because I don't want to find another website, and I know well how to behave here. It is just that some users take what they don't agree with or just doubt to a very exaggerated point, even if we know what we are talking about, we are productive, or they are the solely ones doubting an old consensus and other reputable, knowledgeable, working editors didn't challenge me in the first place. Just as you may see that L.tak supported me as being 'nice and civil' and that this whole AN/I thread over this minor issue was wholly unnecessary. Also needless to say that the context to which I said people "care too much about sources" here, a statement to which I agree but in various different senses (and I don't want to challenge the status quo of them all), was taken to a different context by Cavann because, well, just 2 or 3 reverts over more than 27 hours or so with good faith reasonings made him seemingly irritated. Lguipontes (talk) 18:43, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Parallel and the Energy Catalyzer article.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This new contributor, one of a long line of single-purpose accounts concerning the controversial Energy Catalyzer article, has in spite of multiple warnings persisted in using the article talk page as a soapbox, in violation of WP:NOTFORUM. Relevent policies concerning article content - WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:RS etc, as well as the WP:FRINGE guideline have repeatedly been pointed out, to no avail. When, after repeated soapboxing, Parallel was asked to confine comments on the talk page to proposals regarding article content, he chose to first copy-paste verbatim a large section from 'Engineering News' a minor South African website, suggesting this as a replacement for already-agreed sourced content. After the obvious problem regarding copyright was pointed out, Parallel went on to inform us that he had "emailed for copyright permission" . Informed that Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to be written by contributors, not copy-pasted from elsewhere, Parallel then made this proposal for article content:

The Energy Catalyzer (also called E-Cat) is a cold fusion or Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) heat source built by inventor Andrea Rossi with support from physicist Sergio Focardi. An Italian patent, which received a formal but not a technical examination, describes the apparatus as a "process and equipment to obtain exothermal reactions, in particular from nickel and hydrogen".

There are a dozen theories of how it works, but none is widely accepted. NASA is following the theory of Widom-Larsen. (ref http://en.wikiversity.org/Cold_fusion/Theory) The US Patent Office has rejected all patents on LENR since 1989, following failed attempts to replicate Fleischmann and Pons “cold fusion” paper, although this has since been replicated, so Rossi cannot reveal proprietary details.

Rossi has publicly demonstrated several different versions of the E-Cat since January 2011, culminating in the demonstration of a plant rated at 1 MW made from 106 E-Cats, that produced 436 kW of heat in October 2011. 1 MW plants are now offered for sale through Leonardo Corporation 1331 Lincoln Road, Miami Beach, Florida-33139 USA.

Independent tests, funded by Elforsk, were carried out on the E-Cat HT, a high temperature version, by seven scientists: Giuseppe Levi, of Bologna University; Evelyn Foschi, of Bologna; Torbjörn Hartman, Bo Höistad, Roland Pettersson and Lars Tegnér, of Upssala University, in Sweden; and Hanno Essén, of Sweden’s Royal Institute of Technology. Their 29-page report, titled ‘Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device containing hydrogen loaded nickel powder’is available at http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913 The test in December ran 96 hours, the test in March 116 hours. The scientists say the results indicated anomalous heat production at least an order of magnitude more than any known chemical reaction, but their paper has not yet been peer reviewed. A summary has been posted on Elforsk’s web site. They are funded to continue with a six month test starting this Summer. (sources cited by Parallel: , diff )

Given that large chunks of this are entirely unsourced (unsurprisingly, given the claims regarding LENR/cold fusion, which is currently fringe science at best), and given the blatant disregard for NPOV, I think that the description given by TenOfAllTrades - "advertorial" - is entirely apt. That Parallel should think it appropriate to include the address of the supposed supplier of this as-yet-unverified device in an article is almost beyond belief.

Sadly, Parallel seems either incapable of understanding Misplaced Pages policies, or unwilling to abide by them, and is continuing to fill the article talk page with unsourced assertions about 'facts' and about the supposed 'bias' of contributors unwilling to swallow the E-Cat promoter's claims whole. Not only are we faced with endless assertions regarding a 'truth' that mainstream science has entirely failed to confirm, but we are now confronted with yet another 'truth' - that this device is apparently available to purchase! "How can the E-Cat be fringe science and nonexistent when you can buy a 1 MW plant?" Needless to say, this ridiculous claim that the E-Cat is available for purchase is unverified by any remotely-credible source.

As I have shown, and as further scrutiny of Parallel's edit history will confirm, this contributor seems entirely unable to work construtively within Wikipeda policy concerning the E-Cat article, and has done nothing but disrupt discussions and waste other people's time. I am of the opinion that a topic ban may be the only solution - at least until Parallel can demonstrate competence by contributing usefully in unrelated topic areas. It is to be expected that newcomers should be given a little slack, and should be given time to learn how Misplaced Pages works - but there have to be limits, and I think that such limits have been exceeded already. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:15, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Ugh. How and why is this pseudoscience scammy bullshit still included in Misplaced Pages? The article in question hasn't been peer reviewed because there is nothing to peer review! The so-called 'scientists' who 'examined' this device were prohibited from examining, get this, the power source going into the device. Everything about this LENR scam is total bullshit. If it were true, the 'scientist' in charge would have been getting everyone to peer review it as often as possible. It is the kind of scientific breakthrough that eclipses Einstein. Or it would be if it were true. My solution: ban, on sight, anyone promoting this scam. It is no different than "I lost weight using this one weird trick..." — The Potato Hose 19:22, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Occasionally new things are discovered. A Chief Scientist of NASA says the evidence for LENR is now overwhelming. Possibly you know more that Dr. Bushnell? Parallel (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I started by attempting to correct a single mistake in the article, that there had not been any independent test, that was immediately deleted. As such a test has been well documented, it was later corrected by another editor.

The comments posted by AndyTheGrump above do not give the flavor, that can only be determined by reading the discussion page. I have restricted myself to facts that could be referenced, not opinion, and sought through discussion to come up with something acceptable. I opened a dispute page but the editors involved declined to participate. Hence, I floated two trial balloons in the talk page. One a direct quote from Engineering News and one that I wrote myself. I referenced the important things but not everything at that stage because I was certain much would be deleted. However I am quite prepared to reference anything I write. I gave the Leonardo Corp address because that is indeed where one can order a 1 MW plant. It is not mythical. It has safety certification. The address would not appear in the introduction to the Wiki article.

There are a number of factual errors in the article and originally half of it was a very negative comment from a blog as source. This has since been moved down the page. This was replaced by a cherry picked piece from a dated Popular Science article that resulted in a misleading conclusion. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be neutral but the whole piece is biased in a strongly negative way. There are no offsetting positive comments from equally reliable sources such as NASA and a Nobel Laureate.

AndyTheGrump started by stating I was clueless, presumably because I disagree with his opinion, and has consistently refused to discuss the subject, so it is difficult to correct the erroneous facts or reduce the strong negative bias, including defamation of Rossi's character. Adrian Ashfield Parallel (talk) 20:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The above is of course yet a further example of the tendentious soapboxing that Parallel has engaged in. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:49, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

A typical ad hominem response. Parallel (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I am reporting your behaviour and your inability to comply with Misplaced Pages policies here. Pointing out that you have repeated the same pattern of behaviour is not an "ad hominem response". AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Further evidence of Parallel's problematic behaviour. First, he posts on my talk page, accusing me of posting something that was in fact posted by admin Edison - a warning regarding what Edison read as harassment and a possible threat to out someone. , and then, After I'd expressedly asked him not to post on my talk page, Parallel does that, to ask me "what did you do before retiring?" Frankly, at this point I'm beginning to wonder if a block per WP:COMPETENCE is required. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:13, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

But you NEVER responded to the message. The very definition of ad hominem Parallel (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Parallel: you're wrong. Is that now an ad hominem? You're simply digging yourself deeper here by your gratuitous lack of understanding of whatever the heck you're talking about (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:16, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if we are being trolled... AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:16, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Parallel has made only a single edit to the Energy Catalyzer article. It was a modest edit, basically replacing a {{cn}} with what they seem to have thought was a valid reference. I think Parallel was entitled to want to have the appropriateness of that reference discussed. I noticed that Parallel tried to initiate a discussion at WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 72#Energy Catalyzer. I think they made some valid points there. Parallel's challengers did not choose to reply there.

  I think if Parallel actually has lapsed from some policies, but there is no reason to assume this is a sockpuppet ID , then all those lapses would be forgiveable newbie mistakes. Geo Swan (talk) 23:47, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Flagrant and repeated POV pushing is a “forgivable newbie mistake”?

  Threatening people is a “forgivable newbie mistake”?

  Using the expression ad hominem when he obviously has no idea what it means is a “forgivable newbie mistake? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.163.157 (talk) 00:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

  1. There is a difference between knowingly inserting bias into article space, and engaging in a talk page discussion where one defends the credibility of one's references. Parallel's sole edit to the article was to replace a {{cn}} with a reference that I accept they thought was a valid reliable source. I don't agree this is POV-pushing. Some challengers have warned him or her of WP:NOTFORUM -- but meanwhile other challengers are telling Parallel why they disagree with them. If all his challengers agree he should quit trying to defend his position, as per WP:NOTFORUM, may I suggest they should stop voicing their disagreement, so they stopped presenting temptations to which Parallel feels a need to respond? How is a newbie going to know whether to pay attention to the WP:NOTFORUM warning, or to the continued counter-arguments that invite more counter-counter-arguments?
  2. None of us are supposed to threaten other contributors. But Parallel responded to the suggestion he or she uttered a threat here, writing, in part: "Hard to believe that you are so biased you didn't recognize that was a rhetorical question to "unsigned" (how the hell would I identify him anyway) who accused Rossi of being a criminal. I therefore asked him how he would like it."

     I accept, at face value, that their comment was a rhetorical question, not a lapse from WP:THREAT.

  3. Yes, Parallel used the term ad hominem without properly understanding it, and continued to misuse the term, without understanding attempts to explain how they were using it incorrectly. Misunderstanding the term ad hominem is pretty common, and forgiveable. I knew one contributor who made over 20,000 edits over the course of their 28 months of participation, and misused the term ad hominem for that entire time. Geo Swan (talk) 01:26, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

1. Your argument seems to be that the other editors (the ones whose intelligence Parallel insulted) need to let him get the last word. You are attempting to blame the victims for fighting back rather than blaming Parallel for starting trouble. Your argument flies in the face of logic, reason, common sense, and natural law. It is not the victim’s responsibility to submit to bulling it is the aggressor’s (Parallel’s) responsibility to back off. I find your argument insulting.

2. If Parallel had said “How would you like to be tracked down and beaten mercilessly” it would be an obvious threat of violence and not a “rhetorical question”. Just because he threatened to commit libel instead of violence does not change the fact that he made a threat.

3. The fact that he doesn’t understand what ad hominem means is a testament to Parallel’s incompetence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.163.157 (talk) 01:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

1. With regard to insulting people's intelligence -- "two wrongs don't make a right". Parallel should not respond in kind if they feel they are attacked. Other contributors should not respond in kind if they think Parallel attacked them. Neither Parallel or other contributors should insult anyone else simply because they disagree with them. If Parallel is a newbie, then the more experienced contributors should be setting an example of civility. And I am sorry to say I think several of the more experienced contributors fell far short of that.
2. 68.74, isn't the very first edit you made this one, where you wrote: "... his followers were allowed to have used Misplaced Pages as a propaganda machine to further Rossi’s criminal endeavors." Are you disputing that you, 68.74, asserted Rossi was responsible for "criminal endeavors"? Didn't you strongly imply Parallel was the follower of a criminal? Was the question you are trying to claim was a threat was "How would yo like to be made out to be a criminal, by name, on WIkipedia?" Since you had just referred to Rossi's "criminal endeavors" I think Parallel was appealing to you to put yourself in Dr. Rossi's shoes -- not making a threat. I think it is pretty clear Parallel is not just a wikipedia newbie, but is also not a world class hacker. Maybe a world class hacker could trace you, just from your IP, without having checkuser permission. I couldn't do it, wouldn't know where to start, even though I have been using computers for decades. I don't believe for a minute that either of us thinks Parallel could do so.
3. WRT misunderstanding the term "ad hominem" -- this is no big deal, and not a cause for sanctions.
4. 68.74, are the comments from Special:Contributions/68.50.128.91 above, also from you? Geo Swan (talk) 07:09, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Worth bearing in mind here is this article – Energy Catalyzer – is covered by discretionary sanctions, falling well within the subject area of cold fusion. One of the principle reasons for discretionary sanctions being imposed in this area was the presence of single-topic editors with somewhat...idiosyncratic...views on what might constitute reliable sources, neutral point of view, (un)due weight, or appropriate content for an encyclopedia article, and who wouldn't take 'no' for an answer on article talk pages. These editors adopted a tendentious approach, stonewalling and filibustering on talk pages and gradually driving off editors who advocated for neutral treatment of these topics (in line with the strictures of WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE). The discretionary sanctions regime was a necessary tool to curtail otherwise interminable argument on article talk pages from a small subset of individuals who could not or would not accept or understand basic, fundamental Misplaced Pages content policies.

When an editor proposes that the third paragraph of an article's lede should include a mailing address to place product orders, one has to question whether or not they fully grasp the purpose or role of an encyclopedia. (We'll leave aside, for the moment, the fact that the address appears to be for an apartment building in a residential district.) This is the sort of information that doesn't appear at the top of enyclopedia articles – in Misplaced Pages, in Britannica, or elsewhere – even for products that verifiably exist, and that actually work.

It strikes me as reasonable that (at a minimum) Parallel should receive a formal caution under the discretionary sanctions rules that his conduct is out of bounds. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Speaking as someone familiar and interested in the technology of cold fusion; I'm surprised that our coverage in this section is actually out of date; but scientifically instances have been observed, but never as a source of power and never sustained. While the actual fringe overwhelms the actual cases; but bubble fusion and other technologies continue to be covered. Here's a recent news item. I have no idea how to fix this sort of mess, but it seems that fringe editors seem to be winning over real science, or at least for right now. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• That would be the same "bubble fusion" whose chief proponent was punished for misconduct, and which has not been mentioned in respected scientific journals since except perhaps as a "fiasco"? I'm not sure how invoking that addresses the incident that has been raised, except perhaps to confirm this is an area as a whole where the WP:FRINGE guidance is particularly useful. Alexbrn 05:17, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, there is a general problem with fringe topics, but this isn't a general discussion. Regardless of the state of other articles, I am reporting a specific problem, with a specific contributor. I'd like to know whether something is going to be done about this particular issue. Are we going to continue to maintain the article according to policy and guidelines, or are we going to hand it over to the promoters of the device? This is the choice here - because unless it is made absolutely clear here that WP:FRINGE will be maintained in the article, and that the talk page isn't a platform for promotion of Rossi's 'products' or a place to argue that policy should be ignored, it may reach the point where those of us with any interest in maintaining standards will just walk away. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Geo Swan,

1. "Two wrongs don't make a right" is classic bully-talk. It is the pathetic whining of a cowardly bully who violates the rights of others, yet expects others to respect his rights. In the real world there exists the concept of justice whereby people who do evil get punished. If you don’t like that fact then you are obviously an evil doer.

2. If you aren’t even going to bother to read what I actually wrote and address it in the context in which it was said then there’s no point in discussion.

3. It is very much relevant if Parallel’s competence is in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.163.157 (talk) 14:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

As if further proof were needed, Parallel has now apparently decided that the article talk page is an appropriate place for the placement of free advertising. . Needless to say, I have deleted this flagrant abuse of Misplaced Pages facilities. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:37, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

While that might be a WP:FORUM violation, I would say it is not an attempt at advertising as you have insinuated. Gaijin42 (talk) 15:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't 'insinuating' anything. I stated as a fact that it was advertising, and I see no reason to change my mind. Given that www.e-catworld.com exists solely to promote the E-Cat, and cannot possibly be a reliable source for anything, I can see no reason why anyone with the remotest understanding of the purposes of Misplaced Pages talk pages should make such a post. Note that Parallel has already suggested we include the full address of the supposed supplier of this alleged device in the article. He is a WP:SPA who's sole aim on Misplaced Pages is to convince as many people that this implausible device is real, and he seems intent on continuing, with utter disregard for policy. He needs to be stopped. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

We waste untoward time policing this article, and Parallel is the next in a long line of time wasters. Rossi's device has never been put through a rigorous test, and signs are that it won't be. Perhaps Parallel just doesn't understand the science, but in any case his long-winded badgering is leading nowhere positive. Topic ban him now and save everyone a great deal of grief. Mangoe (talk) 17:19, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Parallel is just repeating all the spin thrown by Rossi to cover his tracks. Now he is claiming that Rossi went to jail because Berlusconi wanted to trip. As opposed to, you know, because he totally lied abut his company and dumped lots of contaminating chemical products. He is either delusional or a Rossi's shill. Please topic ban him under discretionary sanctions, for filling the talk page with fruitless POV-pushing. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:53, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• There is ample evidence here that Parallel (talk · contribs) is editing tendentiously, abusing Misplaced Pages as a venue for advertising and promotion, and so forth. Accordingly, I'm going to topic-ban this editor from all pages and content related to cold fusion and low-energy nuclear reactions, broadly construed and definitely including Energy Catalyzer. Misplaced Pages has seen a succession of these sorts of accounts in this topic area, and it makes sense to streamline their handling. I would emphasize that if Parallel (talk · contribs) has any interest in Misplaced Pages beyond using it as a platform to promote the Energy Catalyzer, s/he is welcome to edit in other topic areas. MastCell  19:15, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

User:KfyTopal

KfyTopal (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This person keeps editing Fenerbahçe S.K. (football) into turkish and putting some obvious fake info into player squad. Here are some of the examples:

I also belive that the same guy has made this changes with his IP:

• — Preceding unsigned comment added by Divine time (talk • contribs)

Hasn't really edited since the warning for translating the page. I'll leave him a note on his talk page; if this carries on let me know and I'll block. Basalisk ⁄_berate 08:15, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Blocked user Mhazard9 editing as IP user

User:Mhazard9 was blocked for 48 hrs yesterday for edit warring, after being blocked a few weeks ago for repeatedly removing copyright tags. Mhazard9 was also blocked twice, in 2010 and 2011, for abusing multiple accounts. They're going for the jackpot now with this edit --editing while blocked, restoring an obvious NFCC violation, long-term edit warring on the article, and an abusive edit summary. The IP's edit history is limited to articles where Mhazard9 is involved in disputes, the edit summaries are distinctly in Mhazard9's style, the edits match Mhazard9's -- in short, the quacking is so deafening that no formal SPI should be necessary. Significant block extension is called for. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 23:02, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

As the editor who made the AN3 complaint leading to Mhazard9's current block, I'd also like to register concern. To my knowledge, I've only intersected with Mhazard9 at one article, Pathetic fallacy, where no one has yet undone the changes inflicted by that user. (Although I wasn't anywhere near 3RR myself, I just feel weird about reverting edits other than blatant vandalism when the user who added them is blocked.) My concern stems both from the user's behavior, which included both edit warring and a refusal to communicate, and from the substance of the edits themselves, which led me to muse (to myself) about competency issues or, given the length of time the user has been around, a possible compromised account. (See my diff above. Improper capitalization is the main issue.) Without reviewing the user's earlier contributions more thoroughly, which I have no time for today, I have no idea whether these problems have been ongoing or are new. In any event, block evasion is a serious offense and merits an appropriate response. Rivertorch (talk) 23:34, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• The evidence that this is block evasion is overwhelming. Even before being blocked, Mhazard9 has used the same IP (not logging in) to edit the same articles (at least once in the midst of an edit war at Edward Said), sometimes within hours of each other. I have inceased Mhazard9's block to one month, and I have blocked the IP for two weeks.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:16, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• I rolled back the edit and semi'd the article for a couple of days before I read your extension of the block; I might as well leave the protection there, it's not doing any harm and will prevent any obvious IP hopping for a couple of days. I will watchlist, regardless. Black Kite (talk) 12:32, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Looking at his block log, this is the third time they have been blocked for obvious socking. In light of that I personally would have indef blocked, for now I am going to decline their current unblock request. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban for Lucia Black

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'd like to propose a topic ban for Lucia Black targeting Anime, Manga and Video Games. The reason for this proposal is an ongoing pattern of behavior that has stunted growth and development of articles in these catagories.

A - Lucia Black operates as an owner of several key articles in these topics in violation of WP:OWN. Many of the user's revisions stem from his/her personal opinion rather than concensus or RS.

B - Said user often edits tenditiously and makes frequent use of personal attacks in violation of WP:NPA.

C - Said user often makes edits that contain numerous typographical, spelling and grammatical errors. Such errors require time to correct (often in addition to the time required to verify the info edited into a given article).

D - Said user may have ties to notorious sock puppet masters/trolls with whom he/she may be cooperating in order to harrass other editors.

These behaviors have a chilling effect on wikipedia and are responsible for intimidating new users from contributing in a meaningful fashion. In full disclosure, I was a registered, confirmed editor involved in cooperating on the Anime/Manga articles, but felt compelled to leave Misplaced Pages due to harrassment from Lucia Black. I have since abandoned that account and am nervous about disclosing who I was due to the possibility of on and off wiki harrassment in retaliation. She repeatedly reverted additions with little or no real justification and has accused me of being a troll.

I'm not sure if it is the nature of the topics, but perhaps it might be best if Lucia Black were given a break and encouraged to edit other topics.

User has been notified. Chibi Kusanagi (talk) 23:52, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

A brand new user account arrives to propose a topic ban? Quite clearly either an invalid WP:CLEANSTART or as a minimum an improper alternate account as an attempt to distract attention from their regular account. I'm sorry, I can AGF for days, but not for something like this (✉→BWilkins←✎) 23:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect, it doesn't sound like you've AGF'd at all. I have never been banned or blocked. My regular account has been defunct for at least six months. I gave up on account of harrassment from the above user. I'll assume good faith and not accuse you of being in cahoots with the above mentioned user. Chibi Kusanagi (talk) 23:59, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose- A) You need to show diffs that demonstrate this behaviour. B) Ditto. C) This problem seems to be related to Lucia Black's editing in general, not specific to anime and manga, therefore a topic ban will not solve it. D) Unsubstantiated innuendo. Reyk _YO! 00:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I would be more than happy to show the diffs if someone can walk me through how to use the coding involved (I've never done so before). if you bear with me, I'll post them. Chibi Kusanagi (talk) 00:05, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

See Help:Diff - take note in particular of the section 'Linking to a diff'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:14, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Chibi Kusanagi (talk) 00:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

In the meantime, you might want to check out TheSyndromeOfaDown apparently had communication with her on her/his talk page (since deleted, but the deleting admin can provide a copy Writ Keeper reverted it on 3 June 2013).Chibi Kusanagi (talk) 00:12, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Just FYI, the thing I revdeled had nothing to do with Lucia Black. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 03:32, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Support as proposer Chibi Kusanagi (talk) 00:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Relevent Diffs

- example of ownership

- example of tenditious editing

- overt hostility

- WP:HOUNDING

Also, take a look at the pervious two AN/I topics focusing her (one is at AN/I archive 798). Chibi Kusanagi (talk) 00:26, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Assuming this editor is ChrisGualtieri, I have had it with this destructive behavior of this user. The first link shows absolutely no sign of WP:OWN. The other 2, this editor is involved and has been hostile and poison the discussion. Why else would this editor need to make an alternate account out of fear?

Also, this editor isnt afraid of me because of my hostility, its because of my wrongfully ban that in which if I bring it up to the highest power in wiki, will see a bunch of inconsistencies and will get this editor blocked too for his poisoning.

Idk why some user would feel the need to be a sock just to get a third opinion known. I smell conspiracy against me. I would NEVER use a sock. And I would never need to make one just to prove my point.

I cant bring links, but I have witnesses directly involved with ChrisGualtieri who can provide links for me and verify his destructive behaviour.Lucia Black (talk) 02:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Lucia stop being trolled. It clearly isn't me and your personal attacks are wearing thin. Admins, please check the revdel versions of my talk page. I do not know their content, but I suppose it may be enlightening if the edits of User:KuroiNekoko-chan aren't. Considering the last history the SPI will be obvious and I'm going to cross-post this. Not sure where the obsession comes from but Jonathan Yip made clear an effort to focus on both of us in the rev del from KuroiNekoko-chan's last talk comments. This trolling is really lame. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Close and SPI please - I have zero interest in Anime, nor familiarity with the names above but "My regular account has been defunct for at least six months. I gave up on account of harrassment from the above user." = "I created a new sock to get back at an editor, but I'm not telling you who I am"? ..... surely this ANI should closes here and next should be an SPI, shouldn't it? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Ugh...im far too tired for this stuff. How am j suppose to know when a sock is coming up.Lucia Black (talk) 03:09, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - While I object to many instances of how she handles herself in discussions, there is no way this warranted. She does good work when she's not tied up with arguing with people. Sergecross73 msg me 03:12, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose It is at SPI. I just posted the evidence there. Sorry, I've had a rough day and I come home to this. And Lucia, don't take it seriously, that's the intent. I'm going to watch this, but work on a few things in the mean time. But just to be clear, this "topic ban" thing is nonsense, Lucia does good work at WP:ANIME and has opened up to the community; I intend to back her in her efforts; past issues are as good as forgotten. Though let's end this "topic ban" with a snow close just to make sure its not taken seriously in the future; even if the nominator is not a sock. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:14, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

 Done Chibi Kusanagi is confirmed as a sock. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

User:‎Carrrr

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm not really sure what to do with this. All of this user's edits over the past few months have been to amass some sort of index on his user page. I bounced it back there a couple of months ago after he tried to turn it into a WP project page, but that's all they've been working on since then. It's pretty evident that the user is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, but I have no idea what would be an appropriate course of action here. Thanks, Deadbeef 05:12, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I see two alternatives:

* take the page to Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion, or

* ignore it.

(No prizes for guessing which path I support.) --Shirt58 (talk) 06:56, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

MFD: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Carrrr. Peacock (talk) 13:50, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

8i347g8gl

This person is intent on adding material which is obviously inappropriate, and has restored his edits each time they have been removed. He does not interact at the talk page despite several invitations. This is the old section and this is the new section. The talk page has a sample of bizarre quotes so you don't have to read it all. He appears to be doing original work, citing scientific papers while making "God" and "morphogenetic field" connections on his own. E.g. "The gravitoelectric field (God) is also known as the quantum potential." Tahknis (talk) 10:40, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I've blocked for one week (edit warring, disruption, repeated OR). I suggest you try and engage him on his talkpage during the block, to see if you can at least get some sort of discussion underway. Yunshui 雲‍水 10:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Greg Bahnsen

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This article has been vandalized for years, and been protected on-and-off for the same period of time. The vandalism is usually the same edit. Is there no better solution than the current pattern of waiting for the vandal to hit, revert, report, protect the article from anon editing for a short time, block offending IP address for a short time. Can we please just block anon editing on this article, period? --HighKing (talk) 11:33, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Not worthy of this board. This is kind of lame. And, of course, it seems to all stem from a "British Isles" thing. Lucky guess. Doc talk 11:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I suggest indef block IP per WP:NOTHERE. HandsomeFella (talk) 12:04, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

We don't indefinitely block IP addresses. Doc talk 12:09, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• The rest of that sentence doesn't belong anyway, regardless of the name. I've removed it, semi-protected the article for a month, and will watchlist it. Black Kite (talk) 12:25, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Long term, persistent personal attacks, uncivil behavior and battleground mentality by User:Baboon43

User:Baboon43 has consistently displayed uncivil behavior with other editors. This is the second run-in I've had with him and he appears to be trying to instigate some sort of an argument - almost by his own admission. For the sake of brevity, I will not include much about his various edit warring and personal attacks on Talk:Al-Ahbash and other pages, or the various conspiracy theories he tries to promote on various articles. Regardless, this will be long and I am sorry for that - but this is ongoing and there's no way to even partially grasp what editing with Baboon43 is like without quite a bit of detail (and this is still only a small glimpse).

If you don't want to read all the long subcategories

Baboon43 has a long history of combative behavior on talk pages, has been blocked multiple times for edit warring and has engaged in clear personal attacks on numerous occasions. He deserves a clear warning from the community.

Past infractions - multiple accounts, edit warring

While it isn't directly relevant to Baboon's harassment of me specifically, it is relevant to note his history of infractions. He was blocked for the first time for edit warring and abusing multiple accounts in March 2012. Then in April that same year, Baboon43 reported two other editors at the noticeboard here and here; the result was that it boomeranged back onto him and HE was blocked, along with one of the editors he reported. Finally, Baboon43 attempted to once again report another user on the 3RR noticeboard here this March (just three months ago) which resulted in another boomerang with a final warning for Baboon43 and the others involved. The point of this isn't to throw mud on the wall; it's to demonstrate that the user does have a history of combative behavior with others, so this isn't out of the ordinary.

Prejudice/bigoted remarks

Back in February, Baboon43 opposed inclusion of Prince Alwaleed Center for Muslim–Christian Understanding as a source in Wahhabi movement because a Saudi prince donated to it. According to Baboon43, the prince is a wahhabi merely because, as it appears, he's Saudi. When I expressed my shock at such comments, Baboon43 accused me of being either a Wahhabi or misinformed.

During the course of our most recent exchange, Baboon43 attempted to claim Wahhabism (a Saudi Arabian movement) and Deobandism (an Indian movement) are one and the same, using the actual expression "they are guilty by association." While he obviously isn't trying to be intentionally inflammatory, the comments are quite prejudiced as Baboon43 has expressed many times his belief that all Wahhabi people are inherently violent, which in and of itself is pretty bad. Now he's saying that these two movements are one and the same based on guilt by association. I don't think much elaboration is needed here; it isn't block-worthy by any means, but it does deserve a reprimand from the community and it also demonstrates the difficulties many editors face when working alongside Baboon43. Please read on, though.

Aggressive/rude edit summaries

When I edited an article to better reflect what was in the given source back in January, Baboon43 reacted by reverting my edit without explanation and against the source and accusing me of hounding him. When I explained to him on his talk page that such language is unacceptable as is edit warring against what's available in the given source, he erased my comment saying "take your own advice." It's his right to erase what he wants on his talk page but the comment shows that Baboon43 was absolutely unwilling to work things out.

Uncivil tone when discussing editing disputes

Starting again in January, Baboon43 attempted to use what we later realized was a Misplaced Pages fork to prove a point (which was ultimately found to be contrary to the actual reliable sources). That's alright, but in the course of discussion his responses began including battle ground-type remarks such as "your whole argument has been debunked...regardless of what you think" and accusing me of belonging to some relgious reform movement in India because I disagreed with him that the movement (Deobandi) are all "wahhabis" as he describes them.

Seeming to try and provoke others

Most recently, Baboon43 appears to be trying to provoke me into some sort of a flame war on Talk:Barelvi. After making some edits, explaining my rationale preemptively and requesting community feedback, he expressed a difference of opinion in a polite manner; I was delighted, actually. As the discussion progressed, Baboon43 made the aforementioned bigoted comment regarding two religious movements and I expressed my confusion; aside from being a bad thing to say, he didn't seem to be making any suggestions about editing the article and I reminded him that talk pages aren't for chatting. With no escalation, he attacked me personally, accusing me of false rambling and POV pushing without stating why. This upset me because he's harassed me and others like this before, so I told him point blank: if he doesn't either support his accusations or take them back, I would go to ANI. His reaction was to simply accuse me of POV pushing again without proof and that I should "halt the ignorance." I then surmised that a user banned with sockpuppetry who was close with Baboon43 but is now topic banned from commenting on the article's talk space may have asked him to "monitor" my edits; paranoid, but I believe the admin and other users involved can testify that my paranoia is at least partially justified. Baboon43 then accused me of spreading misinformation in a seemingly pointless comment as it didn't relate to article content, at which point I very directly asked him for diffs to prove my misinformation and POV pushing before we come to ANI. Once again, he just accused me of POV pushing without any actual evidence and hence I am here at ANI.

Proposed solution: final warning for personal attacks

As mentioned above, Baboon43 is already on a final warning because of edit warring and 3RR violations. I propose that he also receive a final warning for personal attacks, as this behavior has repeated itself. I also think that the final warning should be placed on his talk page. He's obviously free to archive or remove it, but it will still be in the talk page history. I also invite others who have dealt with this before to chime in. MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:21, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support as the one making the suggestion. MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:21, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support but after such final warnings, something other than warnings ought to be done. Faizan 12:31, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• Comment This sounds like an attemtped RFC/U on ANI (✉→BWilkins←✎) 14:32, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• I agree. You're trying to have a big discussion here, which is appropriate for a request for comment, but it doesn't work well here. Anyone can give a final warning, but ANI is meant for requesting solid action, whether imposing blocks or informal bans or other sanctions. Please add a request for a specific action (beyond this warning) that can be taken, or please take this to a user request for comment if you'd like discussion to continue. Nyttend (talk) 15:52, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
• Well, a block may be warranted, I'm not sure without reviewing the diffs MM has provided...but Baboon43 just came to my talk page to request a block of MM (whom I previously warned as part of a group warning about NPAs). Baboon43's concern was that MM had called his statement bigoted...but if you look at the relevant section, Talk:Barelvi#Fatwa_against_Terrorism_-_deleted_section, you can see that Baboon43's statements, in fact, are bigoted, are using the talk page as a forum, and simply don't belong there. I've told Baboon43 that MM is not the one that should be blocked here...but I haven't decided yet if Baboon43 should be blocked instead. It may be correct that an RfC/U is needed due to the complexity of the issues. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:35, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
• I apologize, since it seems that I failed to understand the distinction between an ANI thread and an RFC. I understand now that my proposal isn't definite enough for an ANI thread, but considering that I seem to have misunderstood the difference I'm reluctant to decide whether to make a definite proposal here or start an RFC instead; I don't want to bungle again so soon. I've now also seen a comment that a block may be warranted though not for sure. I would prefer to wait for a bit and see if a few more comments are put here regarding what should be done before I act next in order to resolve the situation. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, looking at some of the diffs that MezzoMezzo has provided, given the somewhat recent change in behavior, as well as acknowledged off-wiki contact, that Baboon43 may be in violation of WP:PROXYING. So, let me ask Baboon43 directly: have you been corresponding with Msoamu via email or otherwise? Have you been taking his advice, pursuing lines of argument that he suggests, or otherwise attempting to help him continue to edit Misplaced Pages indirectly? Or is your sudden vehemence against MezzoMezzo's reliably sourced, neutral contributions entirely from your own desires? Qwyrxian (talk) 03:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The change was kind of weird. This April, Baboon43 asked me to function as a 3rd party mediator between him and another user in a content/civility dispute. I was happy at the time, hence my getting so upset (probably more than I should have) yesterday at the sudden change. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:07, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

there's no recent change in behavior..i had several disputes with mezzo before i met msaomu as clearly shown at ani mezzo reported me for calling him a wahabi leaving out the fact that he himself called me a barelvi..my first comment on Talk:Barelvi turned into a heated dispute with Mezzo from which he began to hound me several days later by appearing on talk pages..i don't have any interactions with anyone with my wiki affiliated mail..where do i say I'm against mezzo's RS or contributions? if you read the thread I'm making a point that deobandis are mostly affiliated with terrorism unlike barelvis..thats not my own saying its from reliable sources. Baboon43 (talk) 04:39, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with Qwyrxian and MezzoMezzo about the change in Baboon43. They were usually supportive of MezzoMezzo, but since Msoamu's topic ban, they've suddenly begun acting like Msoamu... Very odd. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

i never supported mezzo i just didnt bother entering into content dispute that he had with the editors over at barelvi but i have consistently replied to his statements in the talk pages on a wide range of articles..taking my abstention as support is a mistake on your part. Baboon43 (talk) 07:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Baboon43 is saying he isn't proxying, I don't know of any way to prove him wrong. He's wrong on saying he never supported me because for a period we got along well enough on the talk pages for Wahhabi movement, Al-Ahbash, Saladin and Sufi-Salafi relations but I guess it's neither here nor there. I clearly made an error as I thought RFCs were only for articles, so what should I do to move foreward? Will we continue here and measure community support for a block, or should I take it somewhere else? MezzoMezzo (talk) 07:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• WP:RFC is for articles. WP:RFC/U is for users (the /U stands for User) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Harassment after formal dis-invitation

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• KumiokoCleanStart (talk · contribs)

User and I have previously disagreed (See also WikiProject United States scope, WikiProject United States absorbs WikiProject Texas, WikiProject United States attempts to absorb WikiProject Dallas/Fort Worth). After I commented on an ANI in which they came to my talk page and began to significantly annoy me with baseless complaints, I formally dis-invited him from my talk page (diff of dis-invitation). Today when I tried to give, what I considered a semi-friendly, nudge to remind Kumioko on how to get more positive reactions from other editors, only to have him come on to my talk page again denigrate my comments at AN and to claim that they have more investment based on their tenure and quantity of contributions. I responded somewhat intemperately as was presented to me by their intemperate initial posting. I dis-invited them again from my talk page, and they then persisted in maintaining their "Last Say" on the talk page after I exercised my rights under User Page policy (specifically WP:UP#CMT) multiple times and warned regarding harassment. After I gave a warning via edit summary that the next post would invoke a request to AN. What I want is for Kumioko to respect my wishes and leave my talk page. In addition I'd like Kumioko to be stronly suggested to that their conversational style (including insulting other users, random admins, and unregistered users) is fundamentally incompatible with standard operating procedure. Hasteur (talk) 15:54, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

What do you want admins to do? Just give this strong suggestion, or do you want something in addition? Nyttend (talk) 15:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I want the admins to remind Kumioko about the best practices regarding user pages, user talk pages, and in general making himself to be an entitled user on behalf of his quantity of edits and length of membership with the project. We're all supposed to be editors. Some have been entrusted with additional privileges based on the community evaluating their need, whereas others have been restricted in their privileges based on the failure to adhere to the standards that the community has judged. Hasteur (talk) 16:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I am not discluding any other options, however based on this editor's history I think the time for cautions and warnings has already passed (See also their recent POINT RfA attempt). Hasteur (talk) 16:08, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Hasteur made a comment which was obvious trolling on my request for an edit above (Facepalming). I left a notice on their talk page telling them it was innapropriate trolling and to knock it off. They further insulted me and told me not to come back. Then when I opened up a verbal asswhooping they stomped their feet like an impetuious ppouting little child and reverted my comment. Hasteur made the inappropriate comment and since no one else told them it wasn't appropriate I did. The only think I did was what an admin should have done and didn't. I hurt hasteurs feelings for being a dick. That's all it was. There is nothing worthy of ANI in his request and this discussion is a waste of everyones time. I would also like to add that I am not insulting to anyone who doesn't insult me or another user first. Certainly not an unregistered one (I would like to see an example if I have). If another user or admin wants to insult me, then they should expect that I will have somethign to say to them about it. I am not a sheep and I do not act like one so to assume that they can say whatever they want about or to me just because they are an admin or whatever is an incorrect assumption. Kumioko (talk) 16:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

So, you (Hasteur) made a snarky comment, you both retaliated at each other in escalating degrees of stridence, and then there's a childish edit war over whether a certain comment gets to stay on your talk page? Sounds like another day at ANI. Neither of you distinguished your respective selves here, and you both have made it quite clear that your talk pages are off-limits to the other. So let's all stop being utter jerks to each other, respect the mutual talk-age bannination, and leave it at that, shall we? (By the way, for anyone curious: I silently reverted Kumioko's post on Hasteur's page in the forlorn hope that it would somehow go unnoticed and that this dispute would die the quick, silent death it deserves, but it was not to be. If we want to play the blame game, my blameometer puts the blame on Kumioko at 70% and Hasteur at 30%; not evens, but nothing to write home about.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Kumioko, it's very simple - if another editor removes your comment from their talk page then you should not re-add it. GiantSnowman 16:58, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd made the attempt to head this off by pre-emptively doing an NAC as I have previously seen that Hasteur and Kumioko don't get along, I see that failed. Quite frankly, interaction ban the two of them and move along. Blackmane (talk) 17:49, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

You all can call me names all you want. The fact remains you failed to call the users attention to the inappropriate comment so I did. You don't like how I did it, next time do it so I won't have too. This also would not have happened if I could have implemented the changes I spent hours doing rather than wait a month for you admins to do it because I can't be trusted. And then have you ignore the request for edit because you don't understand it. You don't trust me, then make the changes you don't trust me to do. I should not be doing them if I cannot be trusted to implement them. Kumioko (talk) 17:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

And after waiting a couple hours for a response from Hasteur about how I am being abusive to new users as suggested above he/she can provide no examples. Because they don't exist. Their just another editor who is mad because I'm not an admin and called them out for acting inappropriately. This thread should be closed as a pointless waste of time. Kumioko (talk) 19:29, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh, a couple hours is enough time to formulate a response. No, I've just elected to leave this tombstone on the trail of tears that you leave behind you whenever you don't get your way. I bet that true to form you won't leave this as is and instead will DEMAND the final say in the conversation so it appears that you had the upper hand in the debate. Prove me wrong. Hasteur (talk) 20:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

A couple of hours is more than enough time to provide a couple links of how I am abusing unregistered or new users which you specifically mention above but you can't because its just madeup by you. And I'm just responding to your comments hasteur. Although your comments above are basically gibberish without any coherent meaning as usual so there isn't much I can respond to really. Someone needs to close this thread as the obvious waste of time it is. I would but someone would undoubtedly fuss about it being innappropriate. Hasteur is just wasting everyones time here and he knows it. So does everyone else. He's just spouting crap trying to get me blocked or something and doesn't have anything other than his own bad behavior to prove I did anything wrong. If he wasn't being such a child about the whole thing it would be funny, as it is its just irritating and sad. Kumioko (talk) 20:42, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Kumioko, please find a quiet spot in your house and read your last response out loud. Then ask yourself how successful that response is going to be at defusing this situation. It might be a baseless complaint (I don't know), but responses such as this do nothing to help prove that point. Please calm down. Thanks. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 20:56, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I really don't see anything. The user accused me of being harassing to new/unregistered users which is patenly false. The user was being a dick and leaving snide comments in a discussion which were clearly negative in nature and of no use. No one said anything so I did. There is nothing to see here. The user submitted a baseless complaint to get my into trouble and you and others are so focused on my comments you don't even care about theirs. It should be obvious to anyone that the user is just being shitty. But no one except me seems to care. That's why I am irritated. You will let the user say anything they want and be as dickish as they want but if I say something to them about it, I am the asshole. You want me to drop it, fine. But don't get mad at me for telling the user not to be an asshole because you and your fellow admins didn't have the time or inclination to do it. And contrary to the users comment about us having a disagreement 2 years ago we don't have any "history". Their just some random user that felt compelled to snipe a worthless comment at me because they knew that no one, including you was going to do anything about it and I'm sick of it. I'm not sorry I responded only disgusted at you, yet again, singling out my comments and completely ignoring the comment from the user who I commented about. That is at least the second time you have done that to me so my suggestion to you Ultra would be to tkae a couple minutes while I find a corner in my house and look at all the facts before passing jusdgement. Its a rare thing for admins to do these days but you'll be the better for it in the end. Kumioko (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

174.118.142.187 revealing personal information

Note to admins: This report is made here rather than the usual route for such complaints because the information revealed is stale and faulty so immediate remedial action to remove the information is not required. Nevertheless, the attempt is being made and I believe that the offending page should be deleted along with the edit histories.

User:174.118.142.187 is attempting to make public personal information (contrary to WP:OUTING). This is revealed at User talk:174.118.142.187/Sandbox2. Though this is his private sandbox, it is still accessible to any Misplaced Pages user who cares to look at it (I stumbled across it by chance, though it has been there for a week or two). I am not the only user being targetted by these outing attempts. He is attempting to reveal my IP address which was unexpectedly revealed when the Misplaced Pages site developed a strange fault where although I was logged in, it was recording the IP address in the edit summaries and when '~~~~' is placed at the end of a talk page post. Although he revealed the IP address that that particular post was made under, the address is stale because my ISP uses dynamic IP address allocation. He is also attempting to reveal my geographic location by geolocating IP addresses used by another user (or users) who edit using a dynamic IP address from the same ISP. The attempt is faulty because 174.118.142.187 does not appear to understand the information that the IP address geolocate tools are telling him. A fuller discussion of how the attempts are faulty can be found at User talk:174.118.142.187#ANI notice.

This appears to be part of a misguided attempt to raise an allegation of sockpuppetry (something that he actually has done in his 'analysis'). He clearly does not understand the concept, because a revelation of an IP address does not in itself constitute sockpuppetry. Further, he cites a case where I agreed with the anon user mentioned above, but he is clearly selecting his evidence, because he has ignored the many occassions where disagreement has taken place. I should not need to point out that just because users tend to frequent similar articles, it is no evidence of sockpuppetry because there are groups of users who tend to share common interests (and 174.118.142.187 shares them also). I B Wright (talk) 16:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

He has not pulished any information not publicly available on-wiki. He's made an inference about a pattern of editing similarities between several named accounts and IPs, but anyone could have done that, and no one has to believe it. This is exactly what happens hundreds of times a month at SPI. Basalisk ⁄_berate 16:45, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

My geographic location and IP address currently in use is not publicly available either on the internet or Misplaced Pages. The WP:OUTING policy states that ,"Posting another editor's personal information is harassment ... whether any such information is accurate or not". I B Wright (talk) 12:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not the IP's allegations be accurate, they're not outing. Outing requires either that you know the private information in question from an offwiki source or that you pretend to know it; something drawn from editing patterns is not outing. I note DieSwartzPunkt's concerns, but I don't comment on those. Nyttend (talk) 13:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

It would be worth the admins noting that this anonymous user has a history of making trivial ANI complaints against other users who do not fully support his view on article content (presumably with the goal of getting them blocked so that they can no longer provide opposition). No complaint has yet ben upheld, but there is such a discussion going on at Talk:AC/DC (electricity)#Requested move. This work at User talk:174.118.142.187/Sandbox2 is most likely a forerunner to another such trivial complaint. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 17:15, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I am a random passerby - so please take my comments as something from a student trying to understand ANI --> Any WHOIS would give a geo-locate... The Geo locate are for the IP's the sandbox page shows so i dont agree that it would be a personal information of any one unless I B Wright or DieSwartzPunkt is saying that all these IP's are his? Amit (talk) 15:12, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm largely in tune with the above answers. It's widely acceptable that using geolocation, WHOIS and other technical tools to gather information IPs does not violate the outing policy (even if those tools are technically external). So the geolocation etc info, accurate or not, is not outing. So the only question here is the IP. It's accepted that if you accidentally reveal your IP you can ask for the edits to be oversighted (WP:OVERSIGHT), but this case is so long ago that I don't think your edit is likely to be oversighted. Furthermore, while the original reveal may have been accidental, it seems clear you became aware of what was happening at the time and didn't seem to mind, in fact the linkage to your account seems to have been a direct and voluntary action. While I appreciate you were trying to resolve a technical issue and may not have fully understood the implications of revealing your IP, as far as I'm aware, we don't generally allow people to later completely hide info they intentionally publicly revealed on wikipedia. This sort of thing would and has created controversies since someone may voluntarily disclose their name on wikipedia, appear fine with people knowing it, and then later when questions are raised may suddenly want it hidden. While these people may not have appreciated the risks of revealing their real name at the time, it could also be that they're trying to avoid legitimate scrutiny or want people to associate their name with the good, but not the bad. Note that this doesn't mean that anything the IP says about you or your IP is acceptable, nor that they can bring it up in every discussion. The same as with real names and whatever else, WP:NPA and other policies still apply. And you're fully entitled to ask people not to bring it up except when germane to the discussion (such as WP:SPI cases. And similarly the IP should make an SPI case or similar from the evidence they are collecting, if they can't do so in a reasonable time frame the page should likely either be deleted or at least blanked. In other words, all I'm really saying here is whatever problems may or may not exist with the page you linked to, OUTING does not appear to be one of them. Nil Einne (talk) 17:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Barelvi

these two users need to be blocked..i wasn't going to take this to ani but tag teaming,personal attacks & possible wp:own is getting out of hand..mezzomezzo has escalated matters from calling me a racist on another article. (which i mentioned at ani before) to now a "bigot". he resorts to personal attacks when he doesn't agree with my discussion.

also ever since i entered discussions at Talk:Barelvi this user georgecluster happens to jump into discussion to side with mezzo mezzo..after mezzo calls me a barelvi and POV pusher..george jumps in to claim mezzo is a good faith editor george even posted on his talk page that he would support him consistently

this is nothing more then tag teaming…george reverts my edit here back to mezzo's version

george then completely turns down my proposal on the talk page but when mezzo makes a similar proposal he seems to agree with it.

he arrives out of nowhere between me and mezzo's dispute as well to make supportive comment

note also that a user has recently been banned from editing this article and these two users were involved in pushing consensus at ani for it to happen. Baboon43 (talk) 18:00, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm confused here. Baboon43 used to primarily agree with MezzoMezzo's edits (although not always), and since the aforementioned topic ban for a user, suddenly they don't. That's rather weird. All 3 users need to calm down, stop edit warring, and stop attacking each other. Although I haven't seen that much edit-warring in my watchlist. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:02, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The user MezzoMezzo recently attacked another user as well . he has been warned by an admin to halt the personal attacks and continues it Baboon43 (talk) 19:21, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

This looks a heck of a lot like sour grapes for the improperly-filed (yet sadly and sorely needed RFC/U) above. Tit-for-tat maneuvers rarely are successful, and usually add more kindling to the existing fire (✉→BWilkins←✎) 20:47, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Incivility from User:Amd9012

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I made this revert on the article for Mud, as it was unsourced and looked wrong (a score of 105.184% for a review?) and got this response from that user on my talkpage. This user doesn't make many edits, but the little they do make seem to be disrputive, as per their talkpage. This comment on my talkpage is not acceptable. Lugnuts 18:04, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

You should really have used an edit summary to say why you were reverting, but the response is indeed unacceptable - I have blocked for 48 hours. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:14, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive genre editing from Billybobhanson

Hi all, Billybobhanson (talk · contribs) is continuously adding false/unnecessary to articles even when being told many times to stop (e.g. here and here). Could an admin please block him or whatever. Thanks. Insulam Simia (/_contribs) 20:15, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Is this the right spot? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 20:48, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Looking at the user's edits this might be a case of newbie confusion. Might have been better to explain that genres are agreed upon and changes should be agreed upon by consensus. Certainly doesn't seem like outright vandalism to me. §FreeRangeFrog 20:50, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

And this is the reason why I didn't take this to AIV. Definitely not blatant vandalism. Insulam Simia (/_contribs) 21:46, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, there's some obvious vandalism: , which prompted my warning after Cluebot NG reverted. -- Scray (talk) 23:06, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I have blocked for 24 hours. We'll know if he edits afterwards more about what's going on. Daniel Case (talk) 16:31, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

ThinkingYouth and AcorruptionfreeIndia

Users ThinkingYouth and AcorruptionfreeIndia have been engaging in a long battle at Talk:India Against Corruption and attempts at moderated resolution are failing. WP:3O was unsuccessful and after posting an RFC ThinkingYouth simply started a new thread. It has gone beyond a passionate discussion and has shifted to personal polemics. ReformedArsenal (talk) 22:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I apologize to all senior editors concerned in Talk:India Against Corruption for my editing, but let me clarify Editor ReformedArsenal RFC had no purpose/resolution regarding the ongoing dispute/edit warring . It 's not even minutely addressing the problems discussed/debated/disputed in Talk:India Against Corruption.I had no other option but to start a new section explaining the major issues of the ongoing dispute ,so that other editors can understand the ongoing dispute/editwarring,and take appropriate action accordingly . ThinkingYouth (talk) 06:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The Revised Rfc by ReformedArsenal is now a precise summation of the concerns first raised by User:ThinkingYouth at . His concerns were clarified here . Therefore the Rfc is directly on the original concern raised by the other editor, ie.

"There are so many fake IAC website link to to Www.rise.net.in . Please add third party verified source to claim official website of India against corruption . Do not add fake IAC website and link to Propagandize".

NB: I thank User:ReformedArsenal for his patience and helpful approach. AcorruptionfreeIndia (talk) 06:55, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

As i explained , in my previous comment , this confusion or lack of understanding in the editors to understand the major issues of ongoing dispute at Talk:India Against Corruption, is the sole reason i started the new section below the WP:RFC by ReformedArsenal ,to explain myself and the ongoing dispute/edit_warring in details ,so that concern editors can take the appropriate action accordingly.Please read

FYI: RFC is about "Should http://indiaagainstcorruption.net.in/ be listed as the official website" .It is not about www.rise.net as explained by fellow editor AcorruptionfreeIndia.

NB: I thank all the concern editors and specially User:ReformedArsenal for his patience and helpful approach.ThinkingYouth (talk) 07:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Block/unblock review request for Nathan Johnson

Long-time editor Nathan Johnson is currently blocked for one week for a highly uncivil remark constituting a direct personal attack. The edit for which he was blocked was highly inappropriate, and I make no attempt to defend it.

Nathan Johnson states that he was about to revert the comment and apologize for it at the time he was blocked. He has stated he will do his best not to repeat this sort of behavior. He has also described, on his talkpage, some extremely upsetting personal circumstances that, while not wiki-related, I think are relevant to the editor's level of stress at the time he made his inappropriate edit. I refer those interested to Nathan Johnson's talkpage for these comments, which I would prefer not be explicitly discussed here.

An unblock request has been made and declined. The blocking administrator has declined to unblock but has stated he would not object if another admin unblocks. One uninvolved administrator has stated she favors unblocking. I too favor reducing the block to "time served" at this stage and unblocking, with a reminder that of course this behavior must not be repeated. Because there is no open unblock request template currently posted, it is unlikely that more admins will come across the user's talkpage anytime soon, so I am bringing the case here for review.

I ask that this discussion focus on the merits of this particular unblock request and not turn into a wideranging discussion of the no personal attacks policy, the role of civility blocks and unblocks, and the like. (Editors interested in discussing the role of civility and proper responses to isolated instances of incivility are invited to read and comment on In re Snyder, a mainspace article I wrote today.) Thank you for your consideration. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• This seems pretty cut and dried. If Misplaced Pages is still clinging to the idea that blocks are only preventative and not punitive (is it?), the user should be unblocked, given their crystal clear promise not to do this again. — The Potato Hose 01:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• I am not in favor of someone being blocked for one such remark, especially if they realize quickly enough they shouldn't have made it. Unblocked for time served. Drmies (talk) 01:26, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• It was his third block for personal attacks, so describing it as "one such remark" is a little misleading.—Kww(talk) 01:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Kevin, that was three years ago, as noted in the discussion on the talk page. If you blocked him in part for a remark made three years ago, then... Well, one week for one remark of the "fuck you" variety is a bit much anyway. Drmies (talk) 02:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you to Brad for bringing this here, and to Drmies for unblocking. I definitely support the unblock for all the reasons stated. SlimVirgin 01:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• I support the unblock too - well done, NYB and Drmies -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I feel I am possibly being bullied by 4 admins over SPLC material in the Men's Movement page.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I made an edit on the Men's movement page and included material from the SPLC. The discussion has been here and was taken off the page here ,. My good faith was seriously questioned by Binkersnet

The material is certainly contentious, but I should add that RSN has repeatedly discussed the reliability of the SPLC and RSN also declared fairly unanimously that articles of the SPLC are the the voice of the SPLC and not the author, (with a few dissensions). The SPLC has been used frequently in the past to criticize the Men's Rights Movement, but seems out of bounds when the larger movement is discussed. I seem to get blocked at the drop of a hat and need help here. CSDarrow (talk) 02:38, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I feel like CSDarrow is not responding well to being warned for a copyright violation, something that I feel they don't seem to be mentioning at all in this thread which should end with a block for disruption and wasting time--on this page, on Bbb23's talk page, and on the article talk page. Drmies (talk) 02:41, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh my that is a very serious-looking matter! For what it is worth, I think it would help you if you linked to the diffs of the actual material that was reverted or removed. As far as I can tell from the chat page communiques only, it is not so much that the SPLC material is controversial but that you (according to your detractors) copied and pasted it directly from the site which is considered to by a copyright violation regardless from the source unless it is attributed in a specific and certain mannerism as detailed in WP:COPYVIO. I personally do not feel that if you are being bullied based just on those diffs but if you had the diffs of the actual edits that were reverted I could revise my opinion and stick up for you if it turns out that you were being accused unjustly of copying material from a site wholesale. DrPhen (talk) 02:44, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

CSDarrow's outrageous behavior in his handling of this matter warrants a block. Please see this discussion on Bbb23's talk page and this disucssion on CSDarrow's talk page for context. Thanks. 76.189.109.155 (talk) 02:51, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• The diffs are this one with copyright violation, and this one with attributed quotes. The material that CSDarrow wishes to add is without context, difficult for the reader to understand. It makes a statement about some not-very-respected types of men who can be found in the men's movement, but it does not set a larger context about what the main types of men are, what the main demographics are of the men's movement. The CSDarrow text is not encyclopedic; it does not help the reader. I cannot tell what he was trying to communicate to the reader, and I would like to have him explain it. Binksternet (talk) 02:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I fail what your comment has to do with this issue. However the argument you present is beyond belief and could be used to remove anything you so pleased in Misplaced Pages. Similarity I am still waiting for you to withdraw your accusation of bad faith, when I fact I truly do believe these quotes to be VErY significant from a VERY significant organizationCSDarrow (talk) 03:42, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

this one this one seems like it was sourced and quoted appropriately; the other (second) one wasn't - but it was simply a matter of adding quotes around the correct sections, I don't think CSDarrow was trying to plagiarize, he just didn't quote it the second time as he should have. I think this matter is best discussed at the correct talk page, I don't see any need for admin action here, the revert was proper but could have been more gentle.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

CSDarrow committed a clear copyright violation (taking material from this webpage and inserting it without quotation marks or paraphrase into an article here). When he was called on the copyvio, CSDarrow responded unconstructively and cast himself in the role of victim. I don't see any bullying here. I see someone who's committing copyvios and then reacting obnoxiously when called on them. And I'm considering blocking CSDarrow until we can be sure that he understands what a copyright violation is and that he will not insert any more of them into our articles. MastCell  03:01, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

There was essentially no discussion when all that was needed were quotes as now I know. I was simply issued with a very officious warning and 3 other Admins jumped in. The question of Binkersnet questioning my good faith I trust will be addressed. Let me be clear, I truly believe the SPLC commentary is significant, it is a VERY controversial statement made by a VERY significant organization. The material has now been removed for reasons that are also imo opinion entirely spurious.

Frankly I think the links I have presented concerning the discussion speak for themselves. I also find suggesting sanction for those who attempt to use a dispute resolution system troubling. CSDarrow (talk) 03:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

CSD, I warned you previously about the boomerang. You report at your own risk. Frankly, I find it absolutely outrageous that you find it inappropriate that editors would suggest you be sanctioned. Do you think that someone who reports other editors for improper behavior, especially an allegation as serious as bullying, should be immune from receiving any adverse consequences for their own inappropriate actions? I would now ask that you please provide diffs that support your claim that four editors have bullied you? If you are unable to provide such proof, then I concur with Drmies' recommendation that you be blocked. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 03:35, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Confidence in safety from unreasonable sanction when making a complaint to a justice system is one of the most fundamentals pillars there are. Sanction should only be used for the most egregious of incidences, else it becomes a tool of the totalitarian state, (forget who said that). Talk to those who lived in Cold War East Germany. CSDarrow (talk) 03:59, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry CSD, but this is Misplaced Pages noticeboard, not a court of law. We don't give immunity to anyone who feels like making an accusation against someone. Again, I clearly advised you about the boomerang effect after you continually were calling editors bullies and threatening to report them here. Do you think that falsely reporting a a crime is acceptable? Or legal? And let's be clear... leveling an allegation of bullying against four editors without any proof whatsoever is egregious. So show us the diffs that support your claim. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 04:13, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I can see why he chose not to provide that diff of the actual material. That is clear and unambiguous copy violation and I do not quite clear understand why he construed the reminders on his talkpage as bullying. this ANI report reminds me of boomeranging... DrPhen (talk) 03:04, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Obi, I appreciate your good-faith effort, but CSDarrow's edits were not positive and the aftermath is just a waste of time. Here we are again at ANI, with the MRM, and a conflict caused by too much zeal and too little know-how, coupled with a temper. The copyvio charge was not a matter for the article talk page, and why CSDarrow didn't just accept it is a mystery to me. I called for a block because of that disruption on a number of pages, accusations and all. For the record, I believe the IP likewise suffers from a high zeal content. Drmies (talk) 03:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I find it very difficult to understand what CSDarrow is trying to accomplish. He seems to be getting increasingly irrational and confrontational. If I understand right, CSDarrow is sympathetic to the MRM and is frustrated at the approach to sourcing by the other editors of those articles (who emphatically are not). His perception is that sources are judged suitable or unsuitable according to whether or not they back a pre-determined political position. At the heart of the issue is that most of the sources come from feminist literature and it is true that stuff published in those kinds of journals must adhere to a particular ideology, so I can't say that CSDarrow is completely wrong; and I have no respect at all for that attitude- it is not conducive to honesty or academic integrity. However, the material CSDarrow is arguing about on Bbb23's talkpage is indisputably a copyvio, and it was not "bullying" anyone to remove it. He is putting himself in the wrong through this misbehaviour, and I urge CSDarrow to stop shrieking so much. Reyk _YO! 03:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
• I honestly don't think even CSDarrow himself knows what he was trying to communicate with that edit. He simply copied and pasted two sentences, verbatim, from the SPLC website and slapped them into the article. I showed the comparison of the sentences from the source vs. the article in this thread. Beyond the blatant copyright violation, the other major concern of course is CSD's use of material from the SPLC website as a reliable source. Although I'm not saying I disagree with SLPC's positions on matters, they are clearly anything but neutral. CSD was told that if a truly reliable, independent source - newspaper, magazine, etc - has encylopedic information about an SPLC position, then it could be added and sourced to them. But, as another editor told CSD, "posting an insulting quote from the SPLC, cited to the SPLC" is inappropriate. In any case, I think the content issue is simply a huge distraction from the real issue at hand. We have an editor here making outrageously bogus claims of other editors bullying him, when the fact is that everyone has told him he is wrong and all he wants to do is argue with them and hurl baseless accusations. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 03:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The worth of the SPLC's word seems to vary depending on who wishes to use it, which is the deep deep root problem here. Lets not pussy foot about this. Any pejorative it cares to spew about the Men's rights Movement is the Word of God CSDarrow (talk) 04:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Slow down! I feel like the temperature on this is getting turned up way too high. CSDarrow, please, listen to me, as I am not an admin and didn't revert anything you did. All you have to do is apologize, and say "Ok guys, you got me, I shouldn't have copy-pasted". OTOH, everyone else, please take a chill pill, this is not the place to discuss sourcing of materials or MRM (but the IP may be interested to know that CSDarrow is absolutely right, SPLC and their blog posts are taken as highly reliable sources over at Men's rights movement.) Frankly, I think an aggressive copyvio tag (and then a bit of ganging-up) for a minor error which could have been easily corrected goes a bit too far. I would have settled it through a revert and a gentle note on the talk page explaining, rather than a direct attack on the editor who, it must be admitted, has demonstrated zeal for this material in the past (the admin in question may not be aware of the history of this material being added/removed/etc). So let's start by turning down the temperature, everyone, nothing dramatic or dangerous or terrible has happened here, mostly just a misunderstanding and hurt feelings. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I think my violation of copyvio was more against the letter than the spirit of the rule. When I was aware I adjusted it, but now another reason has been found to exclude this material. CSDarrow (talk) 03:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Obi, it is not reliable in the context that the content was inserted. Further, the content is not even encylopedic. The fact of the matter is that the admin made a proper revert and issued a proper warning based on CSD's prior editing of the article and his recent two blocks. And the admin did so with absolutely no malice. I'm sorry, but when an editor goes around making an allegation as serious as bullying against another editor, let alone four editors, s/he better have the proof to back it up. If not, they should be blocked. Otherwise, editors could go around making baseless allegations with immunity any time they feel like making someone's life miserable. So unless CSD shows proof of the alleged bullying, or issues an apology, s/he should, as Drmies recommended, be blocked for a bit. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 04:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not getting into content discussions here - I was just making an aside. Yes, the revert was "proper", but then everyone got all fired up and there was a bit of a beating administered in various talk pages which was not helped by CSDarrow playing the victim. I suggest that everyone drop the pitchforks, come down out of the castle, relax, and have a beer. CSDarrow, you violated the law and the spirit, as you copy/pasted text. Yes, quote marks are small, but they matter. What Binksternet did afterwards, I wouldn't have done (e.g immediately revert) given the temperature, but whatever, *that* should be dealt with at the talk page, not here.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

76.189.109.155, Read me response to you further up. CSDarrow (talk) 04:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

CSDarrow, I am still looking for your explanation of what you wanted to communicate to the reader by adding the text in question. Please provide the requested context. Binksternet (talk) 04:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely the wrong forum for this Binksternet. This should be for issues requiring admin intervention, not content discussions - temperature is way too high here right now for that. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but that goes both ways. Obi, I'm clean out of good beer but there's some Pinot Grigio here if you don't mind having it with some ice cubes. If CSDArrow can swallow their pride and end this thread (basically, by dropping the "bullying" charges, I suppose) we can put this complaint to rest, as far as I'm concerned, and move on (on the talk page). For the record, I wasn't involved in the article talk page discussion and Binksternet's edits and comments, or CSDarrow's responses and comments there. But perhaps we can let bygones be bygones, for now, and start fighting over men's rights again tomorrow. Which reminds me that I'm being oppressed since my wife is out of town and now I have to feed the dog and sleep all by myself. It's just not fair. Drmies (talk) 04:46, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

It's been two hours since CSD started this report, yet we're still waiting him to provide the diffs that support his claim of being bullied. After all, that's why he came here. So, CSD, either provide the proof or apologize for your false allegation. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 04:49, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I would urge CSDarrow to drop this. Personally, I don't think he needs to apologize, as I read his talk page (IP, if you want diffs, thats where they are), and it did become rather aggressive rather quickly, with 3 separate people drubbing him within minutes, but he should say "Sorry, I shouldn't have copy/pasted", and "I will drop the charge of bullying", and then lets close this and get back to arguing about really fun stuff, like is SLPC a reliable source or not! Stay tuned!!! CSDarrow, I hope you realize that you aren't likely to get further satisfaction here, and the fact that you committed a straight-forward copy/paste does not help your case. Many people on many sides did things I would not have here, but lets let bygones be bygones, partake of some of Drmies delicious Pinot (let's ask him to chill it first, what a host!), and move on. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:54, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Any system of cooperation requires a set of rules, either codified or assumed. If that system is to have any degree of sophistication it requires points of discretionary power, that are policed by those whose judgment and good faith we trust. Ultimately it is the good faith of the system's members together with the rules and their arbiters that defines its success. Wikepedia falls short on a number of these points, and as a concept is beginning to fail. I think this exchange is a snap shot of why.

I find this all very saddening as Misplaced Pages is a wonderful idea, but shows that as a species we weren't designed to operate in groups of more than a few hundred. If Misplaced Pages is to succeed it needs to attract higher quality people with diverse sets of views, it has a long way to go. People getting their endorphin kicks, from playing the system; winning the argument at all costs; highlighting their personal views and biases; and droves of people hamstrung by confirmation bias isn't going to do it. Misplaced Pages is repeating the same story history as told us a thousand times not to.

What I have seen here today is a disgrace. Obi's comments do however give me hope. I have nothing more to add to this discussion.

Edit:- And no Obi the SPLC is not a reliable source on gender issues, with the same going for half the other crappy sources used. But Misplaced Pages will continue to consider them reliable until the issues I've outlined above are addressed.

CSDarrow (talk) 05:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I propose that someone close this--maybe they'll get a kick out of it, since I sure don't. There is no evidence that there was bullying and no consensus for any admin action (that's how my Pinot-infused mind reads this discussion), and I see no good coming out of any hypothetical and at this point certainly unnecessary boomerang pertaining to this particular thread. Drmies (talk) 05:42, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Agree with Drmies. Our time has been wasted far more than necessary already. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 05:55, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Congratulations to Obi on the 7th anniversary of his first edit, June 10, 2006. --76.189.109.155 (talk) 06:07, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

IP editors trolling

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Need to lock the page List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States -Abhishikt (talk) 04:16, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

•  Done by Soap (talk · contribs). Drmies (talk) 04:38, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• In addition, protection related requests should be made at WP:RFPP. You can do it easily using WP:TWINKLE gadget. --Tito Dutta  (talk • contributions • email) 06:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Microsoft/Sony article lockdown might be needed

My son tells me Sony's PS-4 release has triggered a spate of trolling on Microsoft's and Sony's pages, and related pages like company officers here. He recommends Admins lock such pages for a few days, or restrict editing at least to logged on users. Apparently some juveniles are running amuck with what they think are funny changes. A higher state of scrutiny of such articles at least is suggested. // FrankB 04:51, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I've just checked Xbox, Xbox (console), Xbox 360, Xbox One, PlayStation 4, PlayStation 3, PlayStation 2, Sony Computer Entertainment, Jack Tretton, Microsoft Studios and a bunch of other pages. They are either semi-protected already or they don't have enough vandalism to justify semi-protection. That said, it might be good if users more familiar with the topic (the last console I owned was the PlayStation 2!) could have a poke around and report to WP:RFPP any pages they find that need protection. —Tom Morris (talk) 09:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Article Vera Renczi continuously vandalized.

User:86.41.71.194 and User:143.239.66.44 keep making disrupting edits to the article of Vera Renczi. The user(s) keeps inserting his own personal opinion that the she did not exist - contrary to anything I can find on the internet. User keeps removing all of the categories and inserting his own opinion (in a very sarcastic manner) into the article. Although I am unsure of who the editor is, I have noticed that this has been a pattern (see the Vera Renczi talk page). One of the users who kept questioning the validity of the article is User:Shylocksboy, who is branded a sockpuppet. While I would like to assume good faith, I am becoming convinced that the same user(s) on the talk page are the same individual, as I have never encountered any information that speculates that Vera Renczi was fictitious - if I had, from a reliable source, I would have included it in the article. I request help from someone, as I have been dealing with these disruptive edits for several months now. Thank you. ExRat (talk) 06:38, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

ExRat, the only user that page needs being protected from is you. Yes, I have added some sarcastic, un-encyclopedic remarks in a desperate attempt to knock some sense into you. No, I have nothing to do with any previous users. If senior Wiki staff is reading this, please be aware of ExRat's behavior, who persistently tries to pass unverifiable information as fact. Some aspects to consider:

• • For a person who (allegedly) lived within living memory and murdered 35 people, it is unthinkable that Madame Renczi doesn't even have a birth/death place and time. I would like to ask distinguished Wiki admin to name ONE, just ONE other real person who lived in the last 100 years, is featured on wikipedia, and whose page is lacking even these basic biographical details. Is this the standard Misplaced Pages wishes to promote?
  • The imaginary town/village/settlement where she supposedly spent most of her adult life (Berkerekul) and perpetrated her crimes doesn't exist in either Romania, Serbia, the rest of former Yugoslavia, or indeed anywhere in Europe. This has been pointed out to user ExRat repeatedly (please see talk page). Furthermore please note Serbian is a digraphic language (i.e. uses both cyrillic and latin alphabets) thus minimizing the possibility of multiple 'character translations'. Even so, alternative spellings also do not turn any matches.
  • The so-called internet sources user ExRat is quoting have not done - to the best of my knowledge - any independent research/investigation into to this case. They are merely quoting one original (problematic) source, or do not quote any source at all. Thus they cannot be counted as independent, reliable references. These internet websites also, for most part, do not represent official bodies, institutions, government agencies, police force, etc who would be in a position to confirm the existence and crime record of the person. They are merely sensationalist, fictional online publications, personal blogs, unofficial 'crime libraries'. Furthermore none of these sources provides any piece of verifiable, traceable information.
  • Sources glaringly contradict themselves. She is either Madame Renczi and Madame Renici, she was born in Hungary and Bucharest, her first marriage was to both a "wealthy Bucharest businessman" and an austrian banker named Karl Schich (this last change shamelessly made by ExRat less than 24h ago in reaction to my comments, probably in an effort to lend more credibility to the story). Her son was either 10 years old when she murdered him, or an adult. The scene of her debauchery was either Bucharest or Berkerekul (sometimes even Vienna?). She died anytime between "shortly afterwards", "before the outbreak of WWII or sometimes in the 50s.
  • The chronology of Madame Renczi's life doesn't stand up to even most basic scrutiny: according to some of the sources she was born in 1903 and apprehended in 1925. How could a person in a span of 22 years get married twice (few years apart), give birth to a son who was either 10 years old or a young adult (thus making her 0 to 12 years old at the time she conceived Lorenzo), and date and murder a string of 32 lovers? 143.239.65.254 (talk) 09:32, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

So, now you have yet another IP address? We have been over this numerous times. Your "investigation" into Vera Renczi is WP:OR. If I had found even one article that claimed she did not exist, or even speculated that she might not exist, I would have included it. However, I have found a multitude of reliable articles that state she is not a fictitious person. The article needs protected from me? You have systematically inserted snarky comments and your own musings into the article and continually deleted the categories. That is not how own edits a Misplaced Pages page and clearly shows you do not work in good faith when you flat out vandalize articles. "she was born in Hungary and Bucharest, her first marriage was to both a "wealthy Bucharest businessman" and an austrian banker named Karl Schich (this last change shamelessly made by ExRat less than 24h ago in reaction to my comments" That was not a "shameless" edit. It was an edit that I made when I found a reliable source from a Romanian crime news site and I was able to correct it, with reliable sourcing. A "shameless" edit, in my opinion, would be to vandalize articles by deleting categories and continually inserting insulting, disruptive and sarcastic comments into the article. I have never found any reliable source in both literature or on the internet that claims, or even speculates that she is a fictional character. Had I done so, I would have included it in article in the first place. One needs only to look at your behavior to know you are clearly not working within Misplaced Pages guidleines. I would also like to point out that I have not used any personal blog as a reference, which you have claimed I have. ExRat (talk) 12:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The text above is in bold for one reason. Have a look at it. Until you have addressed my contentions head-on (no birth/death time and place, lived in an imaginary town, lack of original sources, lack of verifiable accounts, no mugshot, no police or court records, conflicting accounts, impossible cronology) I have no further comments to you. Or perhaps there is one: as long as you're ignoring these facts and continue to claim the article is factual, it is you who mocks Misplaced Pages, not me! 143.239.65.254 (talk) 13:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Adevărul writes that she existed. Then again the article, as it stands, appears to claim the BBC still has editorial control over h2g2, and it appears some of those crime site are more for entertainment that particularly reliable sources. Perhaps it's not quite a black and white as it has been painted here?--Shirt58 (talk) 10:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

IP 91.155.236.125 edit warring with a clear Finnish nationalistic agenda on multiple articles

• 91.155.236.125 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

The IP has for some time been edit warring on Runes (page history), Ancient kings of Finland (page history), Kings of Kvenland (page history),Sitones(page history), Finnish language (page history) and probably a few more, adding massive chunks of very tendentious fringe theories (which among other things claim that the Scandinavian languages aren't Germanic but have a Finnish origin, and also claims that runes have a Finnish origin), with no sources at all, dubious sources or perhaps deliberately misinterpreted sources. The user is clearly not interested in discussing his/her edits and is not willing to add his/her fringe theories as separate sections in the articles while keeping the rest of the article and not giving his/her fringe theories undue weight, in spite of being told to do so. So he/she is clearly not here to collaborate on this project but to push a nationalistic agenda. Thomas.W (talk) 12:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Blocked 48 hours. Obvious case of persistent tendentious editing. If they continue, escalating blocks should quickly be re-imposed. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

User:200.104.70.140 ignoring advice

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP 200.104.70.140 is posting a youtube video to every tornado related article they can find despite several editors telling them they cannot do this. I think a temporary block on anonymous edits may be in order. Djapa Owen (talk) 12:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• IP is active. --Tito Dutta  (talk • contributions • email) 17:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh boy, have I made a cock up.

First things first: bot edits aren't coming through to my inbox. I depend on my eMail to tell me which of "my" pages have been edited for tags, typos or whatever. I have set my account so that it eMails everything.

But why I'm here; thanks to my sockpuppetry several years ago, I've registered my eMail address for it, so I cannot report the above! I don't know which account I used! Any chance of either disclosing the account registered to it (I'm pretty sure admins can see my eMail address, if not I'll make an edit divulging it and then it can be reverted and oversighted) or changing the address of it to something else or - and I have no idea why I am asking this because it can't be done here - just deleting it.--Launchballer 12:39, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Administrators don't have access to private data such as your email address. However, you can treat this as if it was a case of having lost your user name. Go to Special:PasswordReset and enter the email address. A list of user names associated with that account together with temporary passwords for each will be emailed to the address. Hope this helps, --RA (talk) 12:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I've managed to log in on BugZilla, except in the process I've reset the passwords for every account I've ever had. Is it possible to revert this change?--Launchballer 14:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Blanking and swearing to others

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Playstation101abc (talk) blanked the whole PlayStation 2 article, and replaced the content with vandalism. User:ClueBot NG reverted the edits, but this user undone the bot's reversion afterwards. The bot reported on the user's talk page about the reversion, but this user replied by swearing (using the f*** word) and rudeness (don't tell me what to do). After the second bot message, the user once again sweared. I propose this user and its IP address to be blocked to avoid any further vandalism and other violations. --Gaming&Computing (talk) 14:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Clearly WP:NOTHERE. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

While I agree, this account does not appear to have edited since 3 June. Put it another way, if this report showed up at AIV I'd mark it stale. No objection to a VOA block, though. UltraExactZZ ~ Did 14:21, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

User Amosangzk and article List of open-source software for mathematics

User Amosangzk (talk, contribs) has been building a page List of open-source software for mathematics,

I suspect it is a vanity project. The first part of the article is the author's essay in favor of open source software and does not even pretend to conform to Misplaced Pages style or standards. The rest of the article---the titular list---is redundant with existing Misplaced Pages articles.

However my particular brief against Amosangzk consists of:

• Clean-up templates were placed by various bots at the top of the article. Amosangzk's response has been to simply delete them all unaddressed, as in this example.
• Amosangzk also did not address or respond to my talk page suggestions. I posted a pointer on the user's talk page also.
• When I finally put a PROD delete template on the top of the article---along with a note on the user's talk page---Amosangzk simply deleted that also.

There has been no engagement by Amosangzk with other editors, and no addressing of the article's issues.

It is a little disappointing. It would be a plus if a new editor with such obvious motivation and talent would channel that energy into constructive Misplaced Pages editing.

But I think some sanction is warranted. M.boli (talk) 14:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I think it's be helpful to try editing the article into compliance. Let's try that first.--v/r - TP 14:55, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

That is my usual inclination also. But I think this page may have been serving as an essay for a college class, as an article it is hopeless. Partly it is the author's own opinion piece that doesn't belong in an article with this title. The rest (the list) doesn't fit in to how this information is organized within Misplaced Pages. Each software package on the list is lovingly described with a few paragraphs and a screen shot. Yet each already has its own individual Misplaced Pages page, which is where those efforts should be placed. After deleting the opinion section and putting the screenshots into the individual pages, there really isn't anything left but a list of links. M.boli (talk) 15:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with having a list of a subject which contains elements that have broader coverage in their own articles.--v/r - TP 15:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Righto. If you think the article can be thusly fixed up, I certainly won't disagree. M.boli (talk) 15:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm tweaking the format. When I'm done, I'll look for sources to satisfy WP:LISTN. If you want to AfD it after that, no problem by me.--v/r - TP 15:26, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow! You are fast. Also you have a much better sense than I have about using Misplaced Pages's elements for graphic design. And no, I wouldn't AfD it. I got involved because the article title grabbed me as potentially useful. M.boli (talk) 16:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The article looks good but I've added a Refimprove template since it currently shows only 1 reference. Regards. Gaba 16:36, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Problematic SPA

There's some problematic editing going on that the Stewart Raffill and Standing Ovation (film) articles. The account User:Rovaf123michael appeared on June 6 and began editing both articles, making significant changes. Some were ok, but others are clearly an attempt to whitewash by deleting portions of direct quotes: . I placed some warnings on the account's talk page, which received no response. Another account User:Rovaf123, obviously the same user, appeared June 10 and began reinstituting the same whitewashings as the other account , as well as edit warring over the removal of a film poster image . A couple of IPs have also been involved here and there. I'm bringing this here because it's not simple enough for AIV and because there's more at work here than plain old sockpuppetry. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 16:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Youreallycan Ban lift

There has been about a six month ban on YouReallyCan, I think that anything that happened in the past can be forgotten about now. YouReallyCan has done great work on BLP and has been a solid contributor here on Wiki. He has had his share of civility issues but I think that at this point maybe this long of a enforced wikibreak may help these problems. I think if we lift the community ban with a caution that next time may be permanent we would make it so the encyclopedia benefits and gets this great contributor back. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:52, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

No. (and not quite 4 months isn't about 6 months) --Onorem (talk) 16:58, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit conflicted on correcting myself. I just looked at the last block. But I'll still say that from Jan 24 until today is not 'about six months'. --Onorem (talk) 17:01, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I can't find whether the ban were indefinite or definite, and if definite how long it was. Could you research and tell us? I'm just about to get offline and can't do it myself. Nyttend (talk) 16:59, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

You really should've talked to (and waited to hear from) YRC before proposing this. @Nyttend: it was indefinite. I'll rustle up the diffs if it's necessary. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:01, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The ban was enacted January 2013 it's now June 2013 so if it's not exactly 6 months it's pretty close. I believe it was an indefinite ban but indefinite is exactly that an undetermined amount of time. And Writ keeper he doesn't have talkpage access so I am raising it as a member of the community and his friend. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

It's still two weeks away from 5 months. --Onorem (talk) 17:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok so you're upset it's not six months? Not sure what exact point you are trying to make. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:07, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Your initial statement is misleading. You seem to be using the amount of time passed as part of your argument. --Onorem (talk) 17:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

@HiaB: I am aware that he doesn't have page access; I've communicated with him myself (and protected his talk page from trolls) since his ban. If not a friend, I'm certainly on friendly terms with him. My point is that, TPA or not, he has to be a part of this process, and he needs to tell us that he has the time/energy/wherewithal to participate in the discussion. Otherwise, this discussion is a waste of everyone's time that will almost certainly stir up pointless drama (already begun, as you can see) and quite possibly further ill-will toward him. (AFAIK, the community is not a huge fan of unsolicited third-party requests of this kind; that's original research, though.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Would that extra time make your opinion change one way or another? @ Writ Keeper I agree that's why I have already left this ] Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that, that's how I found out about this thread. The point is that you should've waited to open this thread until after you've heard from him that he want's to try for an unban, and I personally would suggest that this thread be closed until you *have* heard from him. It is completely pointless until we know what YRC wants. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I understand where you are coming from but it's a moot point if the community doesn't want him back at all. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:20, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

You're putting the cart before the horse; the community (certainly in theory and quite likely in practice) needs to hear from YRC about his intentions, etc. etc. before it can decide whether it wants him back. It all starts with YRC. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not necessarily opposed to having YRC return, but I'm not prepared to support an unban without us hearing from him about what he wants, how he's changed, how he intends to move forward, etc. Without that information, it's really not possible to make any decisions here. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 17:11, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

It wouldn't change my opinion, but it might influence the opinions of others who would treat this as a possible WP:OFFER case. --Onorem (talk) 17:19, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough on that point, myself I don't think that the extra few weeks will do more to enforce what has already happened but I can understand your point. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:22, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm personally well inclined to listen to a case for a return of YRC, who under his previous (and well disclosed account (User:Off2riorob) I had good encounters. As noted, his BLP work was very strong. However I also take the same view as Fluffernutter and Writ that I'd like to see this done directly, and not by proxy. To that end I'd be pleased to allow talk page access, subject to a nod from User:Bwilkins. Also isn't WP:AN the right venue? Pedro :  Chat  17:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
  • That would be my fault wasn't sure what board it would need to be on. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
    • No probs, just thought ban / unban normally lived at WP:AN. Pretty bureaucratic anyway really on which page it goes on! Pedro :  Chat  17:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Talk Page access restoral

So 3 admin have opposed until we hear from YRC, ok I understand that point, so either he can email myself or WK or we can restore talkpage access. I have notified BWilkins and requested his input. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:35, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

That's ideal, thank you, though I should confirm my preference is not email but to reinstate talk page access (which can be trivially removed again, and I can't possibly believe that this would have to be done given YRC wishes to return). Pedro :  Chat  17:41, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

TP access restored via his request by email I am assuming. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:55, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Unbanning YRC, continued

Would it be a problem if YRC was to be unbanned first, without regard to his/her intent, and monitored closely for a while afterwards? — Rickyrab. 17:47, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I personally don't think so. I think that it is an invite to come back to the encyclopedia that he could choose to come back if he wanted to, the message that the community at large or at least the people who commented at the banning thread has very little patience. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 17:52, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "unbanned first" Rickyab - I can't begin to think of a situation where we would remove a ban but deny the editor talk page access. Pedro :  Chat  17:57, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

By "unbanned first", I meant a tentative unbanning along with restoration of talk page access. — Rickyrab. 18:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

It has been restored and he also sent emails to myself and WK. He does want to be unblocked but his email to WK gives details. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes. It would be a problem. Why would we unblock a banned user without regard to his/her intent? --Onorem (talk) 18:07, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

At this point who cares, talkpage access has been restored, let's discuss the issue at hand not the now outdated question. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The question said nothing about talk page access. As far as the issue at hand goes...NO, YRC should not be unblocked. His statement is not yet good enough imo. --Onorem (talk) 18:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

To your mind what is an acceptable statement? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

To start with, something that admits and explains fault for the ban to begin with. Simply saying he'll avoid dramah (sic) boards doesn't inspire me on his motives. I don't know what I need to hear exactly. There might be nothing he could say. What has been said isn't enough for me. I simply do not trust that he's here to be constructive unless it's on things that everyone agrees with him on. --Onorem (talk) 18:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Email and initial comment from YRC

I would love to be unblocked so as to contribute in a small way. I would be prepared to offer three months one revert restriction and a three month dramah board restriction and as I have been away four months I am less attached and would from that space focus on commenting only on the content and not the contributor. I am open to additional suggestions or if rejected, advice for any future unblock request.

— User:Youreallycan

Received today at 17:52 UTC. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:56, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Three months 1RR, but plenty of WP:BRD when reverting - emphasis on discuss. Voluntary self ban on WP:ANI / WP:AN except if the case/incident indirectly involves Youreallycan, when he should be free to comment; If it directly involves YRC then it's likely the indef will come back anyway, so I see no value in bureaucratic sanctions (albeit self imposed) Pedro :  Chat  18:03, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• 3 month 1rr sounds good. Just to clarify that it's an indefinite ban from ANI/AN with the attached caveat? Blackmane (talk) 18:12, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Community ban of ChrisGualtieri needed!

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ChrisGualtieri has been engagging in uncivilb ehavoir at my talk page and has engeged in hounding. See Defs , .

Chris is part off an ongoing campaigne to drive me off of wikipedia and it must be stopped. He wont stop so it is up to the community to do so. I know Im not the nicest person to work with, but I have alot to contribute adn civility goes both ways to. Lucia Block (talk) 17:55, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Why a ban instead of a block? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:01, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Um... why was this discussion closed and archived? I'm baffled. — Rickyrab. 18:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

This question has since been answered in my user page. Thanks. — Rickyrab. 18:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

And what, exactly, is the difference between a ban and a block, for the record? — Rickyrab. 18:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

A block can be lifted by any admin a ban is usually set by Community consensus or Arbcom/Jimbo Wales and can not be overidden without community consensus or Arbcom/Jimbo. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 18:13, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. — Rickyrab. 18:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Robin z Sheraton

It is a sock puppet of User:Stepa (blocked indefinite on pl-wiki for vulgarity). See contribution of Robin on en-wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Robin_z_Sheraton (three admins from pl-wiki were attacked). Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 18:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Smolov Squat Routine edit war of sorts

There is a low-level protracted edit war of sorts between myself and IPs (probably the same user) at Smolov Squat Routine. Every few days s/he comes back to revert the edits. I deleted the material repeatedly as I see it as too much technical detail as WP is not a manual. I do not want to use the tools on low-level issues on articles like this and much prefer to seek independent opinion on how to deal with this, assuming I am correct in the content removal decision. Can anyone take a look and advise? -- Alexf 18:20, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

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