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China: Surnames Redirect‑class Low‑importance

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Anthroponymy Redirect‑class

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Requested move

It has been proposed in this section that Li (surname meaning "profit") be renamed and moved to Lì (利). A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Lì (chinese surname) → Lì (利) – Page was moved from Lì (利) to this clearly problematic name without discussion. Besides the capitalization error, the current title does not provide an adequate disambiguation, and most importantly: the original page title was a result of a long discussion here a few years ago which also has drew the input of Jimbo Wales himself. Any move to these pages must be thoroughly discussed, and even so, the current page title is undesirable. The offending user also made many problematic moves (of the cut and paste sort) that I'll presently get into. Sigh. _dk (talk) 16:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Question – Is this encyclopedia designed to be used only by bilingual readers, or are English-only readers just supposed to guess what the disambiguator (利) means? To me, it just means Li (Chinese character) or Li (Chinese something). Actually, I'm not sure that it couldn't be Japanese or some other Far East language. If Li (Chinese surname) is not adequate disambiguation (actually that just redirects to Li (surname)), then why not use English and parenthetical disambiguation that I can understand? Wbm1058 (talk) 22:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Trust me, this has been discussed to death in the discussion I linked above. Basically, if not 利, then what can we use? Generally 利 means profits, and I guess we could translate it to Li (Chinese surname that means profit), though that would be cumbersome and lead to problems regarding original translations, right in the title no less. _dk (talk) 01:11, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

To an English reader's eye, the meaning (or nationality for that matter) of a Chinese surname is unfamiliar and irrelevant. They are all just surnames, so the articles should be merged and titled as such. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Support - what's the alternative? Surnames transliterated as Li: Lí (黎) (pinyin: Lí), then Li (李), then less common wikt:理 and wikt:里, pinyin: Lǐ). Then wikt:郦, wikt:酈, wikt:栗, wikt:厉, wikt:厲, wikt:莉, and Lì (利) (surname) (pinyin: Lì). These names are separately notable as Li (李), Lì (利), Lí (黎). But why are these two like this?: Li (last name) = Li (栗), Li (chinese family name) = Li (厲). In ictu oculi (talk) 01:48, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

They are new articles created by Bmotbmot (talk · contribs), who made the original move from Lì (利) to here and got all this started. He also took the liberty to move Lí (黎) to Li (family name) via cut and paste. Is a rollback appropriate here? _dk (talk) 01:59, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Is there any evidence of this User communicating? There is no own Talk on his/her talk page. I can see someone placing a block warning if continuing to do this with no communication. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Rename all using Traditional Chinese glyphs as disambiguators. Too many different surnames/family names become "Li", even using the Pinyin versions, several share the same accent. Li (surname), Li (family name), Li (Chinese surname), Li (Chinese family name), Lee (surname), Lee (family name), Lee (Chinese family name), Lee (Chinese surname), Lee (name), Li (name), Lee (Chinese), Li (Chinese) should all redirect to the same disambiguation page. And note, that there are cognates in other East Asian languages for Li/Lee as a family name, as well as an Anglo-Saxon one. And the Chinese Li is also spelled as Lee; not counting the various other non-Mandarin spellings of other surnames, that also are found in English, because of Hokkien, Cantonese, Hakka, Fujian pronounciations finding their way into English through people who emigrated and used phonetic spellings based on their dialects. -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 04:09, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
• Strong speedy oppose - this is quite simply ridiculous. We cannot disambiguate with non-roman characters that are not in English. See WP:EN. Also WP:NC for recognisability and naturalness. Differences in meaning can be discussed at the dab page. How is anyone supposed to find the article or link to it? --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:46, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

How is anyone supposed to find the right name now? All of them are "Li"/"Lee"/"Ly", but in Chinese they're all different. Do you propose using their origin stories as disambiguators? -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 08:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Lì (chinese surname), Li (chinese family name), Li (family name), and Li (last name) should all be merged to Li (surname) (or Li (family name) if you prefer) and the differences explained in the article. As it currently stands you need expert knowledge of the origin of the names before you even start. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Strong speedy oppose per Rob Sinden, this is not a character we use in the English language. End of. I strongly urge !voters here to read WP:EN and WP:NC and base comments on guidelines and policies. Widefox; talk 09:36, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

That is quite anglocentric, and, might I add regretfully, anti-intellectual. These are all different topics in their own right. Sure, merge them now and there probably isn't any problem, but as all these different surnames with different origins and different demographical distributions, we are going to have to split the merged article anyways. Why not discuss ways to disambiguate right here right now? Also, this RM is only suggesting to move this page back to the previous concensus. _dk (talk) 09:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Redirect-Class China-related pages
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