Talk:Penis and User talk:American champagne: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 03:49, 2 September 2004 editJredmond (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users9,178 edits Modification/mutilation		Revision as of 14:38, 31 May 2006 edit Smurrayinchester (talk \| contribs)Administrators17,475 edits Talk page blanking
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			'''Welcome!'''
	==Is this specific to human penises?==
	Is this true of all penises, or just human penises? If human only, should this be a subcategory under ]?

			Hello, {{PAGENAME}}, and ] to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the ], where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type '''<code>{{helpme}}</code>''' on your user talk page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions.
	This architecture is common to the penises of a great many animals, and almost universal among mammals, with the exception of the prepuce (or foreskin). In addition, however, some animals have additional features such as the os penis in dogs (penile bone) and such. The '''precise''' description above is only human.

			Here are a few good links for newcomers:
	==The plural of "penis"==
			*]
	the correct plural is "penes". (maybe this should be noted on the page itself).
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			I hope you enjoy editing here and being a ]! Please ] on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out ], ask me or a helper ] on our talk page. Again, welcome!

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	:The correct plural is also "penises", which (being regular) is more memorable. ] 17:16, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

			] 17:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
	==Inclusion of a list of slang terms for the penis==
	I removed the slang terms for the penis because I don't think it adds anything to the article. We could turn the article into a massive list of slang, but what would it achieve? --]

			== Talk page blanking ==
	I agree that this should be kept out of the article.
	I have Moved the slang terms to a subpage. Or perhaps there should be a ] page to encompass this whole partially taboo subject. -- ]

			Please do not remove warnings from your talk page or replace them with offensive content. Removing warnings from your talk page will not remove them from the page history. If you continue to remove warnings from your talk page, you will lose your privilege of editing your talk page. Thanks. <!-- Template:Wr (second level warning) --> <font style="color:#5500BB">'''s'''murrayinch</font>]<font style="color:#5500BB">ster<sup>(]), (])</sup></font> 14:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
	Do we really need to have slang for 'penis' in Misplaced Pages at all?

	:Yes

	I mean, how often have you been looking through Encarta or Britannica and found a page where THEIR editors tried to remember all the names for the male copulatory organ??!!! - Mark Ryan

	:Irrelevant. This is an INTERNET Encyclopedia, and the Internet is about sex. In fact this article would be a reasonable central organizing metaphor for the entire project, as we are virtually sure that every contributor will eventually contribute to this file.

	Y'know, while I'm probably among the more squeamish readers of the pedia, it's kinda nice to have a list ]/, and an encyclopedia is probably the best place for somebody who just wants to know without having to wade through a lot of other crudeness. A person learning english, for example, is probably wise to be informed enough not to be left out in the cold. I was around 20 before I realized the other meaning of "Johnson"...

	Are you seriouly planning to add penis nicknames in every languges ? The page will grow to several Gigabytes.

	By the way mine is nicknamed Charles-Edouard :)

	] 03:57 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

	It is a bit ridiculous. Do we need ANY slang terms for cock errr penis? ] 04:10 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

	No we don't. I say it should be removed.

	Hm. Having the English slang terms was dubious but the slang terms in other languages is not at all needed. Add those to the penis article in the correct languages. This is the English Misplaced Pages. --] 07:23 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

	mav, why don't we just get rid of all the slang terms. It's so silly

	: Agreed. we don't need them. -- ] 11:22 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

	I took the liberty of removing the slang terms. I think there's just too much controversy over it. Perhaps a separate page could be created, as mentioned above by ].

	Created the ] page. I think it is nicer this way. And I also think that perhaps the piercings section should go somewhere else...maybe on ], which currently just redirects to ].


	Misplaced Pages isn't a usage guide, it's an encyclopedia; please see ]. I think we were basically just trolled. --]

	==The readership of this article==
	Might I remind you all that, very likely, all of our ravings will be readable by our mothers, wives, husbands, children, and future employers? Food for thought. --]
	:I don't care :) -- ]
	::One day, you will regret not having cared. :-) --]

	==The effect of penile piercings on intercourse==
	I have a question about penile piercings -- wouldn't they make intercourse more difficult, or painful for the other partner? We should mention something about this. -- ]

	I cannot believe that 'Penis' is one of the most frequently edited articles in Misplaced Pages! Can't you all find another article you can put your creative genius into? Anyway, I don't think the 'penis' article should go into too much detail about piercings, slang terms, contraception etc. Do we really need to give descriptions of whether piercings are comfortable during sex??!!! - ]

	:I was only asking because the article already discusses piercings, and if its going to discuss them, it better answer my question about them also. Besides, if its true, and since a lot of people will be interested (slightly under 50% of the world's population possess one, and most of the remainder, well, they, you know :), why not include it? I think the slang terms thing is going a bit overboard (though maybe it could belong in an article like ]). But, in general, we shouldn't exclude useful knowledge simply on the grounds of the prudish of some. -- ]

	:I agree 100% with the latter statement. But I would also say that we shouldn't go out of our way to ''include'' knowledge ''just because'' some people get a kick out of demonstrating that they are not prudes. That's a sign of immaturity, I think, more than it is of a lack of prudishness. --]

	:I find it preposterous that 50% of the world's population posesses a pierced penis. Where did you get that information, SJK? ]
	:What I meant was that a bit under 50% of the world's population possesses a penis. -- ]

	==Penis length and race==
	Could somebody provide a citation for the claim re penis length and race? --]

	removed from article pending citation:
	:Some early studies have also suggested that African-American males have statistically larger penises than their Caucasian counterparts.

	I've heard that this is just an urban legond and is not supported by anything other than anecdote. Please provide a reference or simply rephrase with what I just said. -]

	:Fanon covers this subject in some detail in "Black Skin, White Masks", and tends to agree with Mav (which he backs up with statistics). Interesting historical origin for the belief, though... worth reading! ]

	The only reliable penis-size studies commonly quoted in the literature are the Kinsey study, the UCSF study, and an Italian study, none of which even attempted to correlate with race. There is an ongoing government study in India as well (commissioned with the goal of helping reduce the high condom failure rate there), but it too is unlikely to answer the question. There have been many other studies and claims of varying rigor--for example, the LifeStyles condoms study, but they are generally flawed by selection bias. --]
	:It's probably an ], but I remember reading that the only race with a statistically unusually-sized penis is ]s, who tend to be large -- though I think there is (supposedly) one tribe in Africa that is off the scale on the large side. Just wanted to throw that out there ]
	:More trivia that is probably untrue but I definitely read somewhere in printed form -- the largest minority in any society is always rumored to have large penises ]

	::While totally unscientific, that would certainly explain why ] recirculate all the ] jokes about penis size, except with ] as the "possessors" of the endowment. There are plenty of Finns working norwegian oil platforms and in northern fish factories. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick

	:According to the 1998 on the internet (which isn't really scientific, but seems to yield quite believable results nonetheless), penis size differences between Caucasians and Blacks are not statistically significant. Penis sizes of East Asians tend to be smaller, however this correlates with the smaller body sizes of the East Asians in the survey... ] 07:19, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC).

	==Whether subincision splits the glans==
	It's my understanding that subincision, as a practice, does NOT bifurcate the glans penis. In its milder form, I believe it just slits the foreskin on the underside so that it hangs partially open; the Australian Aborigine practice, if I recall correctly, is to slit open not only the foreskin but the entire urethra to the base of the penis, but without bifurcating the head. --]

	==Whether erection is necessary for intercourse==
	I'd like to change this sentence:
	: Erection is required for ] and other ].
	-- because erection is not ''essential'' to intercourse. However it's certainly helpful -- ] 23:28 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)
	:Is it really intercourse without an erection? -- 202.124.102.131 20:17 Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)

	=="Showers" and "growers"==
	The following could be greatly improved by slang:
	: For example a man with a relatively small flaccid penis may have an above average length penis when fully aroused. The opposite is also true.
	if we added something about ''showers'' and ''growers''. ]

	==Whether the foreskin is part of the penis==
	Over in ] there was a thrilling debate over whether the foreskin is in fact part of the penis. I move this talk here in order that experts in the field may examine the issue and provide relevant information. ]

	What the hell is the foreskin if not part of the penis?

	: The problem (and this isn't your fault) is that most people have accepted a social bias which misunderstands basic human biology. Non-biologists are usually confused about the human body, and imagine that parts that are near each other are really the same. This is very common, and I can't blame anyone for thinking this way. But its wrong. Biologically, one can trace the development of both the penis and the foreskin surrounding the penis from separate embryological tissues. Even at birth the penis and foreskin are separate; you can even grab the foreskin and pull it far back, totally exposing the penis. You can remove some, or all, of the foreskin, without touching any of the penis itself. ]

	:::I'm no doctor or biologist, but I have a foreskin and it's definitely part of my penis. ] 02:41 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

	:::RK, your statement doesn't really prove anything; one could just as easily say, "Biologically, one can trace the development of the foreskin and the ''rest of the penis'' from separate embryological tissus. Even at birth the foreskin is separate from the ''rest of the penis''; you can even grab the foreskin and pull it far back, totally exposing the ''rest of the penis''. You can remove some, or all, of the foreskin, without touching any of the ''rest of the penis''." It's a question of definition. ] 16:08, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	::::I'm sorry to be rude about this, but it's ridiculous to assert that the foreskin is not part of the penis. It is attached to the penis, distal from the body itself, and not attached to any part of the body but the penis. Its function specifically accrues to the penis itself; it has no function for any other body part. When a penis is fully erect and the foreskin is retracted, it is not even apparent as a separate part of the penis! And many body parts or organs have more than one embryological derivation -- the adrenal glands, for instance. Or the penis itself. The nervous tissues and the skin tissues differentiate from the ectoderm so early on that they are effectively different embryonic paths. Do we then say that the nerves in the penis are not part of the penis? Or do we say that the hair on your head is not part of the head? Or this: the spinal cord originates separately from the vertebrae: do we say that because of this, the spinal column only includes one, and not the other? ] 20:48, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	==Whether we should include a picture==
	We need a picture....

	Your prayers have been answered! :-P All the images come from http://www.luckymojo.com/faqs/altsex/penis.html and I searched around the site trying to find a copyright notice but to no avail and due to the nature of the page (a faq for alt.sex) I think they should be OK. --]

	: You should probably email Elf Sternberg <elf@halcyon.com> to ask for permission. See ]. ] 13:05 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

	:: The address is dead --]

	::: I found Elf's current address and emailed him. Here's the reply:
	:::: The original asfaq was placed under a Creative Commons license, but it has been a long time since I did any work on any of the FAQ materials. ... I think at this point I would be comfortable putting the work under the GFDL, yes.
	::: So the copyright issue is now solved. Hooray! --] 19 Nov 2003

	It's strange that photos of Penis are allowed but photos of Vulva have been removed, though both originate from the same site (alt.sex FAQ, ) -- ] 18:41, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

	Personally I don't find that half as insulting as the "image" of "an erect penis." Even without extensive medical expetise, the image is clearly one of a penis at best going through the early stages of detumescence. (I don't have a digital camera, so there...) -- ] 08:34, Sep 9, 2003 (EDT)

	==Kudos==
	Thanks everybody for this excellent article. I've learned a lot!

	== Erect penis photograph? ==

	True or false: the picture that narrows the Erection section of this article is appropriate for Misplaced Pages. ] 18:13, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
	:ALthough it's close to the edge of what is acceptable, I think there's general agreement that clinical photos are acceptable. ] 18:27, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

	:Shouldn't it either be in a different section, or show a more erect penis? ] 18:31, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	Please see: ] and ]. ] 18:57, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	If we ''are'' going to show an erect penis, we should show one that is ''fully'' erect, rather than semi-erect. This also suggests that we should discuss the angle of erection in this article, and its variability. -- ] 07:29, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	:There was a paragraph about this in the normal variations section. I've moved that to the erection section. ] 03:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	And it should show an entire penis, not one that has had some of it amputated. ] 13:38, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	Without invoking the circumcision wars, it probably makes sense to have an uncirumcised penis depicted here, as it represents wildtype. Oh, and for anyone who does not like photographs of erect penes, may I suggest producing a good anatomically correct drawing? -- ] 23:37, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
	:Uh, that's exactly what is at the top of the page. ] 23:42, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)
	::No, that's a flaccid penis. There are lots of noteworthy changes between the erect and flaccid state: many anatomical features only come into play during erection. The fundamental biological function of the penis (apart from providing an extension of the urethra) is to be erect in order to facilitate sexual intercourse. -- ] 07:24, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
	::: Hopefully there will eventually be a good selection of videos and images illustrating the process and accompanying changes. ] 03:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
	::::If soeone wonders whether those would be clinical in nature, consider that I once spent several days at a medical trade show in a booth adjacent to one with continually looping video of a penis pump in use on a human penis. ] 14:27, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
	:There should be two photos, one of a natural penis and one of a circumcised one. And the photos don't need to be nearly as large as the one that was just removed.] 01:07, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
	:: Larger would be good, particularly including details of structure. We don't yet have a good image for ''glans'', ''frenulum'', ''foreskin'', ''pearly penile papules'' and an assortment of other structural details. ] 03:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	==Image==

	Is it too much to ask to attempt to keep this encyclopedia G-rated and safe for all the family? I support a version which links to the penis images, but does not display them in the article page. Is this really too much to ask? This sort of thing can get this whole site blocked from libraries. --] 02:54, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
	:It was been decided that clinical images are acceptable, as they would in any other encyclopedia. Beyond that, Misplaced Pages is not censored. ] 03:09, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)

	::This is not a medical textbook, it is an encyclopedia. Graphic images of human genitals are not shown in encyclopedias. Period. --] 03:28, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	:::Because... ? People who read encyclopedias aren't entitled to the same information as medical students? - ]\|] 04:08, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC) Period.

	::::Err....Someone here would find medical textbooks very disappointing indeed... - ] 04:13, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	:::::Not having read any medical textbooks, I'm moved to say then that we should replace this graphic with whatever graphic is in the medical textbooks, so as to satisfy Cantus' sensibilities. Or are medical students expected to "play it by ear"? - ]\|] 04:17, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	::::::Well, it depends on the text a bit. Accepting the "Penis Challenge", I've looked at two Internal Medicine texts: only one has a picture of a penis, and that's "the penis before and after testosterone treatment of an intersexual patient". I suspect one would do better in a text of Endocrinology, Anatomy, or Urology. I guess you're supposed to know what a "normal penis" is by medical school, as illustrations tend to be pathological. - ] 04:32, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	:If you want a filtered internet, please use one of the large number of filtering programs which are available. However, I would support a page with most images on it, leaving only a few more than the modest selection which are here at present in the main article. It would be somewhat messy to have forty of fifty images in this article, even though there are plenty of variations for them to illustrate. ] 03:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	Oh for goodness sake why on earth is anyone horrfied by a part of the human anantomy? This is so childish. A penis may be in an erect state without sexual arousal (such as a natural aid to continence in sleep). But honestly why are people so hung up about any sexuial connotations. It is this very kind of opression that creates imbalance and unhealthy interest in the "forbidden". A penis is part of nature get over it! ]

	== Metric conversion ==

	From last version by 80.191.66.199:
	:The average human penis is 5 ]es (15 up to 17 ]) in length when fully engorged with blood during arousal

	Are we implying that metric people on average have longer penisses? :p -- ] 23:38, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	== Comparative anatomy ==

	My sentence relating male and female anatomy was removed as "unwieldy". Unless the information is considered wrong or irrelevant, I suggest that its unwieldiness be removed by editing, rather than by deleting. I have restored it, in its own section. ] 15:15, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	:The new section works considerably better than where it had been, though we may want to include something on why the two anatomies are homologous. Do we have an equivalent section on ]? - ] 16:28, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	::Yup, there's a section in the ] article listing the homologous male structures. As to ''why'' the structures are homologous: males and females use almost the same genome, and it's much easier and more efficient to make slight modifications to a single body plan than to come up with two different plans altogether. Rather than have one section of the genome make an ovary and another section make a testicle, you use just one section to form the common precursor of both and then change things slightly towards the end, under the action of hormones. If something's easier and more efficient, evolution is more likely to find it. However it doesn't ''always'' find it: even though the ] and the ] perform a very similar function, they are ''not'' homologous but constructed separately from scratch. ] 17:51, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	Axel, this is a very clear explanation. It should be (after the removal of the intentional viewpoint) merged into the article... -- ] 22:25, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	:Maybe better to put into ]? Since it isn't really specific to the penis. ] 00:27, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

	== Modification/mutilation ==

	I've changed the "modification or mutilation" items to just "modification", and in some cases altered the text altogether. As we've discussed (and discussed and discussed) at the ] and ] article, the word "mutilation" tends to carry negative connotations, while "modification" is more neutral. Since the distinction between "genital modification" and "genital mutilation" is often blurry, I'm going with the more neutral term. (Also, putting "modification or mutilation" every single time is rather awkward.)

	I'm also changing "bifurcated" to "split" and rephrased some sentences for clarity's sake.

	- ] 03:49, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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