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Revision as of 21:01, 7 July 2013 editDarkness Shines (talk | contribs)31,762 edits →Edit request on 6 July 2013: Re← Previous edit Revision as of 21:18, 7 July 2013 edit undoNeo. (talk | contribs)2,253 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
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::::::The lede is decided by contents. Let's talk about it later. You have not answered why you removed sourced contents from 'background' section. You have just read out Nanavati commission sentence which is your version. ] (]) 20:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC) ::::::The lede is decided by contents. Let's talk about it later. You have not answered why you removed sourced contents from 'background' section. You have just read out Nanavati commission sentence which is your version. ] (]) 20:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
:::::::Please read ], I intend to discuss only the content you reverted as that is the locus of the dispute. Please move onto the next issue you have with the content I rewrote, improved and expanded upon. ] (]) 21:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC) :::::::Please read ], I intend to discuss only the content you reverted as that is the locus of the dispute. Please move onto the next issue you have with the content I rewrote, improved and expanded upon. ] (]) 21:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::: Let me try again. While adding your content, you removed existing sourced contents. Removing sourced, verified contents from articles is not allowed. If some editor do it, we editors in anti-vandal, patrolling unit simply revert his/her edit. Then editors are supposed to explain why they removed sourced contents. Got that? So again, why you removed sourced contents? ] (]) 21:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

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The following content was recently removed from this article, should it be restored? Darkness Shines (talk) 06:01, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

These attacks have been described by Gyanendra Pandey as pogroms and a new form of state terrorism, and that these pogroms are not riots but "organized political massacres". According to Paul Brass the only conclusion from the evidence which is available points to a methodical Anti-Muslim pogrom which was carried out with exceptional brutality and was highly coordinated.

References

  1. Pandey, Gyanendra (2005). Routine violence: nations, fragments, histories. Stanford University Press. pp. 187–188. ISBN 978-0804752640. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
  2. Brass, Paul R. (2005). The Production of Hindu-Muslim Violence in Contemporary India. University of Washington Press. p. 388. ISBN 978-0295985060. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
There are no shortage of sources which call this incident a pogrom, help yourself to a few Darkness Shines (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
I have do agree with DS. We have multiple gold standard academic sources giving a similar picture. See e.g.Barbara D. Metcalf; Thomas R. Metcalf (28 September 2006). A Concise History of Modern India. Cambridge University Press. pp. 299–. ISBN 978-1-139-45887-0. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help): "In the first years of the new century, as in the decade before, communal violence accompanied the growing liberalized economy. By far the most serious was the 2002 railway carriage fire at Godhra and the subsequent weeks-long concerted ‘pogrom’ directed against Gujarat’s Muslims..... The Gujarat state government, far from seeking to contain Hindu ‘reprisals’, tacitly connived at the ensuing violence. For three days the police stood idly by as Hindu mobs, led by VHP and BJP activists, using computer printouts from the records of the Ahmedabad municipal corporation, identified Muslim shops and residences, pulled their owners outside, killed the man and raped and killed the women, and then set the buildings afire. From Ahmedabad the violence spread to other Gujarat cities and even into the countryside. Order was restored only when the army was deployed throughout the state. At least 1,000people died and some 150,000 had to take shelter in relief camps.Few Muslims ever returned to the neighbourhoods in which they had originally lived." Dlv999 (talk) 08:03, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
First, the applicability of the word "pogrom" was discussed in detail here as well as on the AFD here. Harping on the same thing again and again is disruptive. I don't wish to repeat my claims again and again. This was not a pogrom, period.
Second, Author's contentious claims are nothing but personal opinions. We must look to balance the weight. Mr T 09:30, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Not the same discussion. Moving the article to a name containing pogrom, is not the same as including significant published views in the article (per our WP:NPOV policy) that characterise the events as a pogrom.
  • "This was not a pogrom, period." - I believe this comment is characteristic of major POV issues you have with this article. To wit, you believe you know the truth of the events and that your own beliefs about the topic trump what has been published in high quality academic RS. This is not how we write wikipedia articles. We should be putting aside our own beliefs. Identifying high quality sources and dispassionately representing what they say. If high quality RS (e.g. books published by distinguished University presses, written by professors in relevant fields) disagree on particular points, then we include the different viewpoints. That is what our WP:NPOV policy says.
  • Your final comment is incoherent. Academics published by scholarly presses are the best sources for articles such as this. Please see WP:SOURCES: "Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history..."'; WP:HISTRS:"Historical articles on wikipedia should use scholarly works where possible....Historical scholarship is: Books published by academic and scholarly presses by historians"
Currently the article relies to much on primary source journalism from the time of the events. This type of source is not preferred for historical articles (again see WP:HISTRS) and should be phased out and replaced with the kind of scholarship DS is proposing. If there are alternate views in high quality academic sources, of course they should all be included per WP:NPOV. But as it stands trying to keep scholarly sources out of the article that is largely based on lower quality sources is simply not tenable. Dlv999 (talk) 10:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
  • It is not what MrT believes or some other author believes, this cannot be called a Pogrom unless it is proven. Did any court in India or International held the Gujarat or Indian government responsible for the violence?. There was an investigation against the Chief Minister for his alleged involvement in the violence, the Investigation team did not find any evidence. You provided a 2006 source above which is outdated because it has not taken into consideration the SIT report(2010) which did not find any fault with the state government.-sarvajna (talk) 11:16, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict)@Dlv: I really don't know what to say, if your mind is already made-up. This IS about the same issue. It may not be identical but the refutations are going to be the same.

If I had a bucket and showed you the bucket would you still ask for a newspaper article to prove that I had a bucket? That was not a pogrom because if it were majority of the sources wouldn't call it by any other name. They would clearly mention that POLICE connived at all this. The fact of the matter is, they didn't connive (look it up) even though some would have liked to see that. I reiterate, I doubt anything is more credible than the Verdict, presented by a Judiciary committee in a Court of Law, basing on the findings of a Supreme court appointed investigative body which were supported by years of investigation and literally thousands of testimonies. No charge could be brought against Narendra Modi. He was in a way exonerated by the report presented by the Supreme court Investigative Team. As Dharma wrote here, ″academic research of any superior quality cannot replace a judicial decision″. I don't believe that the article currently depends very much on primary sources. Authorities imposed a curfew in Gujarat they didn't sit back and watch idly. A good many people (mostly Hindus) were punished (sentenced to life in prison). If this was a ′pogrom′ then I dare say every random act of communal vengeance is a pogrom.

About Barbara Metcalf and her book:

  1. In the same book Barbara Metcalf calls the violence following Babri Masjid demolition an anti-muslim ′pogrom′, that is a far cry from violence, let alone a real pogrom. Plurality of Hindus died too. Don't forget Indian Mujahideen a banned outfit carried out terrorist attacks on Hindus citing demolition of Babri Mosque as a justification. How is it a pogrom then?
  2. About the cause of Godhra Train Fire, she very brashly proclaims, "it was almost certainly not deliberately set by Muslims on the station platform, as Hindus frequently alleged". There is not a shred of doubt in her mind. She had already independently precluded the possibility of veracity in the allegations of Hindu witnesses before the investigations themselves were over. That reeks of an utterly inauspicious prejudice and a doctrinaire attitude.
It seems as though she, in 2006, had more access to the info and evidences than the authorities of India did. She has clearly done it on purpose and I am not sure if that purpose is neutral or penchant-free. This one-sided focus on Anti-muslim violence while ignoring the plights of other faiths really strikes me as conspicuous to say the least. Mr T 11:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Let us leave aside the intentions of the author. In 2006, the author might have made some assumptions, many of the important verdicts like the verdict in Naroda Patiya massacre case the Godhra train burning case came after 2010, so we cannot use this outdated source.-sarvajna (talk) 11:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

"this cannot be called a Pogrom unless it is proven." We have high quality academic sources that describe the event as a pogrom. WP:NPOV, a core policy of our encyclopaedia sates that we should represent " all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." These academics in appropriate fields that have been published by distinguished University presses are significant views published in RS on the topic. If this article is to comply with core policies and principles of the encyclopaedia this viewpoint must be included. You can't really get around that. We can't say that it is a fact unless there is agreement in RS on the point, but the text under discussion is for the material to be correctly attributed to the academic. Your point about the date of the publication of the source has some validity. But here we must be consistant. If you want to prohibit all sources prior to 2006 or 2010 do it consistently. As I have already pointed out a lot of the sources currently in the article are primary source journalism from the time of the events. Mr T's arguments critiquing academic sources based on his own beliefs on the topic are not arguments that carry any weight at all in Misplaced Pages. The two sources he does cite are journalism. We do not write historical articles based on journalist sources. You cannot cite a piece of journalism to refute what has been written by academics published under scholarly imprints (gold standard sources). Dlv999 (talk) 13:11, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Comment: In addition to what Neo said, I say the following. Politically organized?? Who was convicted? In India, like other nations, people are presumed innocent unless proven guilty, if no politician is guilty of conspiring then how is it a politically organized massacre? Precisely these sort of unfounded innuendos we are required to bar from inclusion. Darkness Shines is pushing a very specific agenda on multiple articles and discussion boards. From Anti-Muslim pogroms in India‎ to 2002 Gujarat violence to Religious violence in India and so on. This is turning into an unacceptable pattern of persistent POV-pushing. Mr T 07:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - Both citations are high quality academic sources: professors in relevant fields published under notable academic imprints. I think the article is suffering from major POV issues and the way to get it back on track is to shift towards these kind of high quality sources and away from the lower quality sources. Dlv999 (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Question: Some have argued the viewpoints expressed in these academic sources should not be included in the article because of WP:WEIGHT. What sources are there of equal quality or better (i.e. at least professor of relevant field published by notable academic press) that dispute the viewpoint in the sources under discussion? Dlv999 (talk) 13:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - I was directed here by the RFC bot. After reading the article and discussion I have to say that that the Stanford University Press and University of Washington Press are top notch academic sources. In the absence of compelling academic or other RS saying this was explicitly not a pogrom, they should be used in the article and lead. Further, the lack of criminal convictions of authorities is not dispositive. Pogroms, as I understand them, are violent attacks by a majority against a minority often with official inaction or support. Hence official inaction (lack of criminal convictions) doesn't rule out pogrom. I agree with Dlv999. Something has gone wrong at an article when solid academic reliable sources are dumped. Capitalismojo (talk) 13:35, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Thats a sensible comment Capitalismojo. I have been asking this question of mine at various forums wherever this issue has been dragged by editors but everyone has refrained from answer me. Probably you wont. My question is; what is a pogrom? Your understanding is that the attacks are often with official inaction or support. Is this a universal definition of pogrom or are other definitions also available? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 15:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
RS saying this was explicitly not a pogrom - We don't include radical claims into articles based on absence of word-for-word negation. Majority of RSes don't call it as ′pogrom′ that is intrinsically saying something. You cannot demand that reliable sources specifically claim it was not a "pogrom". They won't do that. What they would do is call it by the right name and that's what majority of RSes are doing.
official inaction (lack of criminal convictions) doesn't rule out pogrom - official inaction? But my point is, that the administration, the police were not inactive.
lack of criminal convictions of authorities is not dispositive - but the verdict from the court of law is, I think. That this was a pogrom is an unsubstantiated fringe opinion and that is why measuring DUE weight is relevant. Something has gone wrong at an article when personal opinions of authors and syntheses of sources are callously included. Mr T 15:53, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Here are two more very recent academic sources describing the events as "pogrom".
  1. "The Political Logic of Ethnic Violence: The Anti-Muslim Pogrom in Gujarat, 2002" (PDF). Politics & Society. 40: 483–516. December 2012. doi:10.1177/0032329212461125. Retrieved 19/06/2013. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
  2. Parvis Ghassem-Fachandi (8 April 2012). Pogrom in Gujarat: Hindu Nationalism and Anti-Muslim Violence in India. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-1-4008-4259-9. Retrieved 19 June 2013.
It is simply not credible for editors to keep making unsupported claims that this view of the topic is a "fringe opinion" in light of the source evidence that has been presented. Standford University Press, University of Washington Press, Cambridge University Press, Princeton University Press. These are among the most prestigious academic publishing imprints you will find anywhere. They are not in the business of publishing "unsubstantiated fringe opinion". Dlv999 (talk) 07:33, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Here some more news reports(my emphases):
  1. :

    The Supreme-Court-appointed Special Investigation Team, which submitted a closure report on the probe into the Zakia Jafri petition levelling serious charges against Narendra Modi and 62 others in connection with the 2002 communal riots, has not found any evidence of the Chief Minister having promoted enmity among various communities on religious grounds.

    In the section dealing with Mr. Modi in its 541-page report, the SIT on the contrary claimed that the Chief Minister had repeatedly appealed to the people for peace and had also taken due care for the rehabilitation and medical facilities for the riot victims in the relief camps.

  2. ″SIT, which recently submitted a status report to the Supreme Court, has found no substantial evidence to show that Modi allowed the riots to rage on.
    Sources said the SIT found no substance in petitioner Zakia Jafri's allegations that there was dereliction of duty on Modi's part.

    Zakia is the widow of Congress MP Ehsan Jafri, who was killed along with others during a mob attack on Gulbarg housing society in Ahmedabad in 2002.
    Zakia had alleged the state administration failed to discharge its constitutional duties during the riots. Her complaint had identical charges against others, including cabinet ministers and MLAs.

    In March, Modi was questioned by the SIT after the Supreme Court asked for an investigation into Jafri's complaint.″

  3. The allegations are biased and baseless.

    ″Putting up a strong defence of the Gujarat Chief Minister, Mr Advani said in his 60 years of political life he has not known any of his colleague “so consistently, so viciously maligned by opponents as Narendra Modi”.″

  4. SIT-representative R. S. Jamuar said in response to the much-touted "appeal":

"In comparison to the complaint as defined in Criminal Procedure Code(CrPC), this (the FIR) is not at all a complaint, it's a piece of waste paper to be thrown away, It's a fiction or novel written by 4-5 persons and complainant Zakia has no knowledge about anything written in it."

This sort of mudslinging and allegations are a part and parcel of a POLITICAL game. Misplaced Pages, fortunately, is not part of that political circle. Mr T 08:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
As previously discussed journalism is not a good source for articles on contentious historical events, especially in this case where academic sources cite the "inflammatory" press reports as a significant factor in the events themselves (see e.g. citation 1. pg 486 in my comment above). Myself and DS have cited only academic scholarship and I would ask you to try to keep to a similar standard of sourcing. Dlv999 (talk) 09:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
If these were op-eds or personal opinion then your comment would have had some merit. But these are essentially analysis of SIT reports and quotes from the representatives. What's wrong with that? In fact what you think is "academic" is not neutral, I would argue. Mr T 09:23, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
My comments are based on Misplaced Pages policy and guidance, which I have cited to you, which tells us to base historical articles on academic scholarship, and that journalism is not academic scholarship. Dlv999 (talk) 09:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
We are straying away from the main issue

It is the allegation of State terrorism. These sort of outdated, prejudicial personal commentaries became even more irrelevant after the Supreme Court appointed investigative team's report was put forward. That accusation was a personal perspective of the "author" and what he thought was going on. He thinks India is a sponsor of "state terrorism". To frame India as a sponsor of State terrorism based on people's personal opinion is intolerable. As User:Dharmadhyaksha wrote at an AFD: "A historian doesn’t decide on whether a act is terrorism or not. He might opine on whether it is terrorism or not. A judicial system decides on whether it is terrorism or not."(emphasis in original) This is exactly the sort of scandalmongering Misplaced Pages tends to actively avoid. Mr T 08:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Writings of a professor of a relevant field published by a prestigious University press in an area of his competence is not regarded by Misplaced Pages as "prejudicial personal commentaries". In fact this is just the kind of source that we can and should be including in our article according to our WP:NPOV policy, which tells us to include "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources".
There is a substantial body of high quality academic scholarship discussing state government involvement in the violence. We have seen that published academics refer to the violence as a "pogrom". Gyanendra Pandey uses the term "State-sponsored terrorism" (text amended per DS comment below). I think the different ways the events have been characterized should be discussed as an aspect of the topic in our article, according to the high quality RS that have been cited in this discussion. I would say that what is more important than the semantic debate is the actual substance of what these sources are saying about the violence and the state involvement in the violence. Dlv999 (talk) 09:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
It is state terrorism, not state sponsored terrorism. And it is not the only source which says this. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:51, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Even worse than State-sponsored terrorism. Mr T 11:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Here is another up to date academic source to add to the list:
"Unless later research disproves the proposition, the existing reports give us every reason to believe the riots in Gujarat were actually full-blooded pogroms. Two common reference sources define pogrom as follows:
An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews. (www.dictionary.com)
A mob attack, either approved or condoned by authorities, against the persons and property of a religious, racial, or national minority. (www.britanica.com)
After the train was torched, the state made no attemot to preven, or stop, revenge killings. State police looked the other way, as gangs murdered scores of Muslims with remarkable ease. 7 The statements of NGOs most closely associated with Gujarat state government, run by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), openly supported anti-Muslim violence. According to the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP), the BJP government did what was absolutely necessary: namely, allow Hindu retaliation against the Muslims, including those who had nothing to do with the mob that had originally torched the train in Ghodhra.8"(Atul Kohli; Prerna Singh (2013). Routledge Handbook of Indian Politics. Routledge. p. 157. ISBN 978-0-415-77685-1. Retrieved 20 June 2013.) Dlv999 (talk) 18:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You gotta be kidding me

here How is that not undue weight? The opinion of one person which lays the blame for the carnage directly at the doors of the victims. The article is just getting worse with every edit. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:51, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

who were the victins in godhra train burning? -sarvajna (talk) 10:29, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Is this article about the train burning or the violence in Gujarat? Darkness Shines (talk) 10:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
The last time I read, Godhra was in Gujurat and train burning was part of Gujarat violence.The first section is about Godhra and rest are post Godhra.-sarvajna (talk) 10:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Again, is this article about the train burning or about the violence? The article already has as much an the train burning a it does about the violence. When a minority community is attacked and we have an article on it the focus of the article is meant to be on the people who got attacked. The violence against muslims section is shorter than that against Hindus, yet the vast majority of the violence was against muslims. Like I said, a fair few times now in fact, this article has massive NPOV issues, of course my tagging it is a waste of time as it is alwasy removed in violation of policy. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:52, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I did answer that, cannot help if you do not want to hear it. I will repeat it again, train burning is part of the 2002 violence. This article is a general one about the violence, we need to mention about the attacks on all the communities. Have you read the article? The section on violence against Muslims is bigger. Cannot help if you see NPOV issues when they are not present. -sarvajna (talk) 11:27, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
And there was me thinking this article was about the violence after the train burning, NPOV issues, RS say this was a preplanned attack, article does not say that. Other issues I pointed out above. And as for this "An interesting observation with regard to media handling of Gujarat riots is that at the time of riots, the media reports had been pointing out the steps taken by Modi administration to curb riots and how even the combined strength of Indian Army which Modi had requested with few hours of riots having broken, and State Police could not control the situation. However, later, the media editorials became critical of Modi, sidelining the facts they'd already published" sourced to a blog piece. The article is a joke. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
What exactly has that to do with this article? Darkness Shines (talk) 05:34, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Of course, you can't comprehend! Wearing colored glasses do not help in creating or editing wiki articles. Shovon (talk) 16:10, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
No seriously, what does the violence in 1946 in Bihar have to do with this article? Darkness Shines (talk) 16:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Sorry. I didn't notice the talk page discussion. Blogs and opinion editorials don't count as reliable sources as we all should know. Plus, if you're going to argue that the media is confused (which it always is!) or duplicitous, you're going to need something solid to back that up. Like an academic source that analyzes media coverage of the incident rather than an opinion. --regentspark (comment) 14:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

So I removed the OR sourced to an Op-Ed which I pointed out here days ago, and it was of course reverted? Explanations please. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:39, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Here where? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 14:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Read the section, the entire thing is quoted about 6 response up. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:58, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Straw poll on moving the article

I am thinking of doing a RM to 2002 Anti-Muslim violence due to my recent research on this incident. "There is by now a broad consensus that the Gujarat violence was a form of ethnic cleansing, that in many ways it was premeditated, and that it was carried out with the complicity of the state government and officers of the law" Before I do I would like to discuss the issue with those involved in editing the page. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Looks like attacks on Hindus, the Godhra Train Burning, and the Akshardham Temple Attack (all of which figure in 2002 Gujarat violence) and clearly factually disprove your research arent being considered? Obvious oppose.Pectore 16:19, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Oppose. Again? After you failed with "pogrom", now this? What about the Hindus, who accounted for 25% of those who were killed during the rioting? Shovon (talk) 16:21, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
This article is about the events after Godhra, all sources say this violence was an attack on the Muslim community, so how is my research factually disproved? Please note the academic source which says there is a consensus that these attacks were premeditated. If you do not come with sources of comparable academic quality to refute this then I will initiate an RM. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Q: As I have asked above, how do you account for the Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims post Godhra? You are always free to go ahead with your requested move at any point of time, but there also, will have to justify this. Shovon (talk) 16:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
There was no "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" some were killed in self defense during their attacks on Muslims, some were killed by the police, the simple fact is that this was an orchestrated, sustained attack on a minority community. The article title needs to reflect the consensus of sources and what the academic sources say about the matter. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Ohh! So you deny the authenticity of the news reports published in reliable sources? Shovon (talk) 16:54, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Please provide an academic source which says there was an "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" Darkness Shines (talk) 16:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
If you think that Indian Express and India Today are not reliable, please move to the concerned noticeboard. Shovon (talk) 16:59, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Compared to academic sources, no. But feel free to provide the links. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - The anti-Muslim violence/pogrom in Gujarat in 2002 is treated as a separate topic in its own right in academic sources already discussed at length on this talk page. It is also true that there were incidents that could not be characterised as "Anti-Muslim violence" that occurred in 2002 in Gujarat. E.g. the Godhra train incident and retaliatory acts by Muslims during and after the anti-Muslim pogrom. If the Godhra train burning warrants its own article and is also summarised here, the anti-Muslim Pogrom/violence certainly does, based on widespread academic coverage per the sources discussed in various threads on this talk page. One possible solution could be to create an article covering the Anti-Muslim violence/pogrom in Gujurat, 2002, which could be linked and summarised here in the same way the Gujarat train burning article is linked and summarised here. This article would remain a collection of all the incidents in Gujarat in 2002, with the topics whose coverage in RS (e.g. Godhra train incident, anti-Muslim violence) warrants separate articles being linked and summarised, as per Godhra train burning is currently treated in this article. Dlv999 (talk) 17:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
So by your way we also have to create article on 2002 Anti-Hindu violence/pogrom in Gujarat. The Legend of Zorro 17:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Good idea, I will retitle this draft and move it to mainspace. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:11, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
rSolomon7968 My impression of the sources is that it would not be warranted, but I am open to persuasion if editors are able to produce a similar quality, quantity and depth of academic coverage that has been shown on this talk page for the topic of anti-Mulsim violence. Dlv999 (talk) 17:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
"I focus on the coverage of the political violence in the western Indian state of Gujarat in the spring of 2002 - which was widely seen as a pogrom against Muslims" Conflict, Terrorism And the Media in Asia p82 Darkness Shines (talk) 19:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Do any of your *academic sources give examples of violence before Godhra? The Legend of Zorro 23:25, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Any discussion of violence before Godhra would belong on the talk pages of articles on those subjects, not here. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:35, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
So since all of your *academic sources only give examples of violence after Godhra I propose the naming of your *future article be 2002 Gujarat post Godhra Anti Muslim violence. The Legend of Zorro 23:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
I come with the best sources per Misplaced Pages policy, you come with? Darkness Shines (talk) 23:53, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Can't understand the controversy. I just proposed the name of your *future article and you agreed to what I asked. The Legend of Zorro 23:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Still waiting on the sources which describe the "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims". Darkness Shines (talk) 14:00, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Is that so Darkness Shines? Doesn't that mean that you haven't read the very article which you would like to move? Huh? Shovon (talk) 15:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Actually I have, other than HRW, who BTW say the attacks on Hindus were retaliatory the section has nothing. In fact what I have written in userspace has more information. So, you got the sources which describe the "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims", or not? Darkness Shines (talk) 15:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Do you mean to say that "10,000" Hindus walked out of their homes to prove something to people like you? Shovon (talk) 15:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
And, what does "retaliatory" mean? By many a persons' logic, the entire Gujarat episode was a "retaliatory" measure of Godhra. Don't come up with circular arguments! Shovon (talk) 15:39, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Call me old fashioned but if a mob were to burn my home to the ground, rape my wife and children and then burn them to death, I figure I would seek retribution. That is what "retaliatory" means. Muslims were being systematically targeted and murdered, so they took retaliatory action. And 10000 displaced Hindus were a result not of "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" as you claim, but as a result of either retaliatory attacks (which according to the sources were few) or fires which had gotten out of control, fires started by the Hindu attackers. Still waiting on your sources for your claim of "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" BTW Darkness Shines (talk) 15:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
That argument, I guess, puts an end to all the claims to pogroms and all. The entire "Anti-Muslim violence" was unleashed as the Hindus saw their brethren being roasted. Per your argument only! Ohh, and for the sources, refer to the violence against the Hindus section in the article, if you have chosen to overlook it. Shovon (talk) 15:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
I already told you that the only source in that section is from HRW, the attacks by Muslims on Hindus are minimal. You have yet to provide a single source which refutes the sources I have given here, do you have the sources to support your contention of an "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" or not? If you do not have the sources just say so. Darkness Shines (talk) 15:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
And, as I already pointed out, if you chose to push only your own POV and overlook others, just say so! Btw, that section also has references from Indian Today and Indian Express. Shovon (talk) 16:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Erm, not a single source then for your claim of "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims" then. As I thought it would be. As for the other sources, pure junk. TOI an interview, should not even be used as a source. Indian Express, the same, neither of these sources should have any weight and are probably PRIMARY sources as they are interviews. And as for India Today it is already quoted in the HRW report, so circular citations there. So in total that section has one decent source, HRW. Now where are your academic sources which refute the ones presented here. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
So, sources do not carry any weight when they describe anything which is not to your liking? How else, do you justify your above comment on the Indian Express piece? Btw, where did I say that "Anti-Muslim violence" did not take place? I have said, and still do say, that anti-Hindu violence also took place, which you refute! Shovon (talk) 16:55, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
No, here is what you said "Anti-Hindu violence unleashed by the Muslims". I have asked you numerous times for sources to support this, you have failed to deliver. And I just checked WP:PRIMARY, those sources which are interviews, fail it, as such I will be removing them. Now, supply the sources, academic ones, which refute the entire purpose of this section, which was to discuss a page move. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
Nopes. Those are NOT primary sources. You may read those again. I will, although, wait for another uninvolved editor to revert your edits. And, talking about your proposal to move the article, it seems that only you think/believe the whole unfortunate episode to be a one sided affair. Why don't you provide a reliable source which says that there were no attacks on Hindus during the period? Shovon (talk) 17:21, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
From WP:PRIMARY "Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved." So yes, interviews are primary sources. Regarding your other point, I have already stated there were attacks on Hindus, however they were few and far between and were in retaliation for the systematic slaughter being visited upon them. All the sources, and I mean all of them, say these events were an attack on the Muslim community, you have failed to provide a single source to refute that. Unless you do I see no point in further debate, as all you have provided is empty rhetoric. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:29, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

POV pushing by User:Darkness Shines

I have noticed that User:Darkness Shines is replacing whole article with his POV article created in his user space. He is giving WP:UNDUE weight to some sources and trying to project that it is significant view of all sources. User should stop pushing his POV in article and self-revert all his today's edits. neo (talk) 17:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me? I have spent six days gathering sources and reading up on this subject, I am removing newspaper sources from 2002. thats right we have sources in this article from 2002, and am replacing them with academic sources. Per the obvious consensus in the RFC above, and policy, we ought to be using these sources. I have merged unnecessary sections, formatted references, and worked damn hard on the content. I will not revert all that work just because you think I am pushing a POV, I am following policy, NPOV. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
One other thing, I cannot, and nor can anyone else wholesale revert all my edits, I removed not only PRIMARY sources, I removed some per WP:BLPPRIMARY So if you want to revert you will have to do it a bit at a time and ensure you do not reinsert those BLP violations. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:59, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The article was totally inconsistent with the academic scholarship on the topic on which it should be based. Unfortunately I don't have the time to go through all the edits and read all the sources, but from what I have looked at and what has been discussed on talk DS is moving the article in the direction of the academic scholarship on the topic. In all this long list of discussions on this talk page I haven't seen a single editor cite a serious academic source to support their criticism of DS work.

As I have said previously to make an WP:UNDUE claim you need to cite a body of academic scholarship that would contradict or dispute the sources that DS is citing. Just claiming undue with no evidence is not even worthy of a response. Dlv999 (talk) 19:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

@Dlv999 Don't response then. Nobody is asking your response. No where in wikipedia there is any guidelines which states that we have to only use academic sources. The Legend of Zorro 08:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
WP:RS "Where available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science." Darkness Shines (talk) 09:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
This is not article on Quantum Mechanics to give importance to academic sources. Professors do not roam on streets during voilence. Courts, journalists and witnesses know better about such situation. Common people switch on TV or read newspapers for info about such situation. They don't buy such academic crap which make up stories long after the incident. Also it is well-known fact that conspiracy theorists tends to screw straight forward cases and publish books to earn money. Anybody can see that September 11 attacks article is using media sources. Misplaced Pages community is not using biased academic crap to support contents. Again, this is not article about Special theory of relativity. So pls do not try to impress with 'academic sources' words. Pls self-revert yourself. Thank you. neo (talk) 20:07, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Are you seriously saying that the best sources per Misplaced Pages policy are "academic crap" and that newspaper reports from the period are in fact better sources? Do me a favour and go say that on the reliable sources noticeboard. And I am quite sure I already told you why a blanket revert cannot be done. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:11, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
BTW, Parvis Ghassem-Fachand, who wrote Pogrom in Gujarat: Hindu Nationalism and Anti-Muslim Violence in India Princeton University Press, he was there. Read his book, it is very good. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
We need scientists or professors to explain complicated science theories. We don't need them to explain why two persons on the corner of streets were fighting. Almost all the time some author publish book to tell something which is not covered by media significantly. If book covers what is already in media, then nobody will buy it. Their aim is always to create sensation to sell their books. Not every news source is reliable, likewise not every professor is reliable. Which media sources are reliable that is known, but which professors/book authors are reliable that's not known. That's the reason articles like September 11 attacks do not use so called 'academic sources'. Your attempt to screw facts by discarding reputed media sources and picking up biased 'academic' crap will not succeed. Thank you. neo (talk) 22:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Read BLPPRIMARY before you revert again. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

In your userspace you have evidence presented by one side of a court case, even though most of the court cases have already been completed. Misplaced Pages should not be standing with the prosecution or defense in a trial. Also statements like "Prasun Sonwalkar believes the media can play an important role in highlighting acts of action, or inaction and abuses of power" are obviously irrelevant to the article. Shii (tock) 16:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

What I have been working on is far from complete, I have requested some journal sources and am waiting on them, both the trial and aftermath sections are very very far from completion. And media reactions to the events obviously have a bearing on the article. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:08, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Okay, but I object to any attempt at "trial by Misplaced Pages". Adding pre-2012 accusations that the riots were orchestrated, despite the 2012 ruling that they weren't, is worse than using 2002 newspaper sources if they haven't been contradicted by later sources. That is not to say that there is no possibility of corruption in a self-appointed Indian government investigation. But it means a bigger claim is being made and an extra burden should be placed on books such as Internally Displaced People: A Global Survey or The Geography of Genocide which clearly are not about the violence in particular. Shii (tock) 16:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
The court judgement is irrelevant per our policies. Sources from 2013 still say it was deliberate, policy dictates so do we per NPOV, you will note I hope that in the lede I had written that Modi was blamed for the violence, and directly after added that he was cleared, no doubt that source is fine for the second bit </sarc>. How do you conclude that books which deal in violence The Geography of Genocide for instance is not about violence? Darkness Shines (talk) 16:32, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
As for the possibility of corruption, ‘KG Shah Is Our Man. Nanavati Is Only After Money’ Darkness Shines (talk) 17:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Template

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Template:pp-protected should be added on the page. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 13:13, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Done. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 July 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Quote from WP:FULL:

Since protecting the most current version sometimes rewards edit warring by establishing a contentious revision, administrators may also revert to an old version of the page predating the edit war if such a clear point exists.

User:Darkness Shines started inserting his POV contents from this edit on 3 July. During 29 June to 3 July there is only 1 edit and that too non-controversial as you can see it here. So "clear point predating the edit war" exists. Hence I request Admins to restore this version. Thank you. neo (talk) 17:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I strongly object to restoration of a version you edit warred to keep. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
I have not made even a single edit on this article before today. I am requesting Admins to restore fairly stable version written by community over 10 years. You pushed your massive POV contents and then article is protected. This protection is rewarding your POV version and that's unfair. neo (talk) 17:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Except it was not my revert which put it in this version was it, you reverted another editor twice and he reverted you. And I can tell you right now that, that mess is not "my version" it is now a mish mash of the old stuff and my fixes. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
That's why fairly stable version should be restored. That User:The Rahul Jain edits only Jainism articles. I think he jumped in here only to oppose me because of our disputes elsewhere and he mindlessly gathered your stuff and inserted in the article. neo (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
By stable version you mean the one you edit warred to keep right? The one which violates WP:PRIMARY, which I told you about above, and violates WP:BLPPRIMARY, which I also told you about above, yet you still edit warred to your preferred version because, in your words the academic sources used are "biased 'academic' crap" because they "make up stories long after the incident" as it is a "well-known fact that conspiracy theorists tends to screw straight forward cases and publish books to earn money". Of course I am the POV pusher, not you at all. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:06, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
You are using diversion tactits to divert attention of Admins. Citing some possible minor problem in the article to keep your massive POV contents. neo (talk) 19:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
You have yet to explain anywhere, let alone on this talkpage what is not neutral about the edits I did, and there are far more than minor problems in an article where the articles owners point blank refuse to discuss, call the best sources crap, and insist that any editor who disagrees with them is a POV pusher. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:04, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
(1) Some hindus harassed muslims on platform. (2) At the same time fire accidently started in train compartment. Magic happens! (3) Then hindus went on doing pogrom, genocide, ethnic cleansing blah blah blah of muslims. (4) Hindus were so murderous that they even went on killing hindus and during this hindu-hindu riot police fired bullets and some more hindus were killed. (5) 31 muslims were convicted for burning train and killing hindus but court judgements are irrelevant and POV as per wikipedia policy so they might be innocent.
Thank you and good night. neo (talk) 22:02, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Wow, so you casually dismiss all the academic sources which backed every line I wrote? Try reading our NPOV policy sometime will you. And you have the audacity to call me a POV pusher, sheesh. Darkness Shines (talk) 22:49, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

The new version is not rewarding any particular person, due to the nature of the sequence of edits. More importantly, the WP:BLPPRIMARY concerns mean that we cannot switch to the old version until it is clearly established that said problems are removed. What I mean is, we must always be conservative when dealing with potential BLP issues. Everyone should participate in the WP:DRN proceedings. You should also all focus on policies--it doesn't matter how long the old version was up--if, as Darkness Shines claims, it was violating numerous policies, then it should be changed. Focus on finding good sources, on verifying claims, and on neutralizing language. Do not worry about who was first or second on the edit warring, do not try to guess what personal opinions someone has, do not tell your narrative of what happened, do not rely on primary sources to make claims. Find out what the secondary sources say, and report those. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:21, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

@Qwyrxian: To be honest I wished you could have reverted it back, I dread to think anyone looking at this article may think I wrote what is now there. I do have a question however, when I spend six days finding the secondary sources, and then write what they say, I get call a POV pusher, and am told the sources are "crap", see above section. What does one do then? In user space where I have been working on sources and content I currently have 86 sources, am I expected to discuss every single one of them? Am I expected to discuss every single line I change? If so I may as well give it up, I had to do an RFC just to get two lines added, see RFC at the top of the page. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

@Darkness Shines: You are experienced editor. You know article subject is highly controversial. You know every single sentence added in the article is being reviewed. Still somehow you think that editors will allow you to replace whole article with your version. neo (talk)

If they had any interest in following policy, then yes. You have yet to point out a single thing wrong with the content I rewrote and added, all you keep saying is the sources are "academic crap", and I can tell you right now, unless you come with sources to refute what I have written, I will restore that content. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Tomorrow some other editors may come up with whole new version of the article and may expect other editors to point out mistakes in their version. Articles are written with consensus. Wikipedians do not review or discuss whole new version of articles. You are supposed to point out what is wrong in current article and submit your changes one by one. Don't expect at least me to discuss your version of article. If you try to insert your version of article, well... you know what will happen. neo (talk) 17:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Can you cite any references from Misplaced Pages policy or guidelines to back what you are saying? Rahul Jain (talk) 17:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Still waiting for you to actually point out a single part of the content I had written which was not backed by RS. Or what is wrong with any of the content I had added, reverting for no reason other than you do not like it is not really a policy. Pick any one section I had improved and tell me what was wrong with it. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:23, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Comment This version is definitely better than what is currently there. I have no problem if the article is reverted to this.
What's wrong in this version of article? neo (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
It violates WP:PRIMARY, BLPPRIMARY, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, and a host of others. This has already been pointed out, are you going to discuss the content I added or not? Darkness Shines (talk) 17:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Which contents violate what? neo (talk) 17:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Please focus on the discussion at hand, you have objected to content I added, so I ask again, pick a section of the content I rewrote and sourced and tell me what is wrong with it. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, refer this. Why you removed sourced contents supported by reputed media sources like CNN, BBC, TOI ? neo (talk) 18:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Please explain your objections to the content I had added, previous versions of the article are not the locus of dispute. Again, choose a section I had rewritten and sourced to the best sources per policy and tell me what is wrong with it. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:09, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Again, why you removed sourced contents contributed by community? You could have added your sourced contents below it. neo (talk) 18:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Darkness Shines challenged the status quo sO I will expect that he can explain what is wrong with the previous version of the article with pointing out faults in each single source. The Legend of Zorro 18:23, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
(ec)For the fourth and final time, explain what you found objectionable with the content I rewrote, sourced to academic publishers, the best sources per policy. You are objecting to content I added, you need to explain yourself as to how the content is not in accordance with our policies. Your refusal to discuss only leads me to the conclusion that you have removed the content for no reason other than, you do not like it. That is not a policy that I am aware of for removing improvements to either sourcing or content. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
And your refusal to discuss why you removed sourced contents only leads me the conclusion that you removed it for no reason other than you don't like it. BTW, this is also against wikipedia policy. See WP:NPOV. neo (talk) 18:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) He is not objecting to your adding of academic sources but why are you removing sources without explanation like this. The Legend of Zorro 18:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
We are going in circles. I can think of two possible solutions; one we can use RFC to gain consensus that which (this or this) is a better version of the article or two, User:Darkness Shines can create a final draft in his user-space and then use RFC to move it here. Of relevance might be WP:CAUTIOUS Rahul Jain (talk) 18:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Nobody in wikipedia owns any article and I do not know of any instance where any editor is allowed to replace a 10 year community written version with a user space drafts. The Legend of Zorro 18:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
(ec)The locus of dispute is the content I added and rewrote in accordance with our policies. As you have now point blank refused to discuss the content I had added I will restore my changes once protection has expired, further removal of academically sourced content in violation of our policies will be reported to the appropriate notice boards. Should you wish to discuss the content I will respond, until such a time as you do this conversation is over. I would recommend you start with the first section I had expanded and rewritten in accordance with NPOV. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
TRJ, I know you are here only to oppose me. If I say that Earth is round, you will try to prove that Earth is flat and you will keep eating my head. But still let me explain what DS is doing. DS removed sourced contents which state or imply that muslims were involved in train attack. Then he inserted contradictory sourced text which repeatedly state that fire was accidental and muslims were just accused. As per WP:V:

When reliable sources disagree, present what the various sources say, give each side its due weight, and maintain a neutral point of view.

DS should have kept both sides of story as per NPOV. Why present only one side? Somehow he is thinking that he can force community to focus only on his version and forget the 10 year old sourced contents in the article. I am unable to grasp why he resorted to such attitude. neo (talk) 20:04, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Finally, we are discussing my edits, your assertion that I removed content which says the train incident was not an attack is easily disproved, as can be seen in this diff "This investigation known as the "Shah-Nanavati commission" concluded that the attacks on the train had been pre-planned and was the result of a conspiracy by locals." Darkness Shines (talk) 20:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Also from the lede which I had rewritten, this diff "The attack on 27 February 2002 on a train, assumed by most to have been carried out by Muslims" Darkness Shines (talk) 20:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
What? That diff clearly shows that you have removed sourced contents. Why are you reading out your version? neo (talk) 20:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Please indent and format your posts correctly. You stated above that "DS removed sourced contents which state or imply that muslims were involved in train attack." This statement is obviously incorrect. I am reading from the content I had written as that is the content you took issue with. Please move on to the next part of my content you believe is problematic. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:48, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
The lede is decided by contents. Let's talk about it later. You have not answered why you removed sourced contents from 'background' section. You have just read out Nanavati commission sentence which is your version. neo (talk) 20:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Please read WP:INDENT, I intend to discuss only the content you reverted as that is the locus of the dispute. Please move onto the next issue you have with the content I rewrote, improved and expanded upon. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Let me try again. While adding your content, you removed existing sourced contents. Removing sourced, verified contents from articles is not allowed. If some editor do it, we editors in anti-vandal, patrolling unit simply revert his/her edit. Then editors are supposed to explain why they removed sourced contents. Got that? So again, why you removed sourced contents? neo (talk) 21:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  1. Craven Nussbaum, Martha (2008). The Clash Within: Democracy, Religious Violence, and India's Future. Harvard University Press. pp. 50–51. ISBN 978-0674030596.
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