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Archived discussions

• Archive 1: December 2002 to May 2006

Peer review

I've archived all the previous discussion in preperation for extensive work on this article. Hopefully the peer review can help use on our way to FA status. I'll add my comments about what needs to be done shortly. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

New layout

I think we need a better layout, and this is what I propose (based on other religous pages):

1. Etymology

   Originating from Sanskrit (śiṣya or śikṣā) or Pali (sikkhā).

2. Beliefs

   One god - reference to what god is in Sikh thought, reference the Mul Mantra as underlying the characteristics of God

   Thoughts on birth, death, reincarnation, karma - relation to dharmic faiths and crucially how Sikhism differs

   Equality of people regardless of race, religion, caste etc,

3. History

   General climate in India at the time

   The Sikh gurus; placing special emphasis on Nanak as the founder, and Gobind Singh as the founder of the Khalsa

   The Guru Granth Sahib

   Influences in Sikhism post-Gurus (famous Sikhs like Banda Bahadur and Ranjit Singh). Including influence of the British, and issue in independent India.

4. Scripture

   Guru Granth Sahib (creation of, layout and content)

   Dasam Granth (and controversy)

   Janam Sakhis

   Other scripture

5. Khalsa
6. Sikhs

   Five Ks

   Punjab and punjabi culture and how it relates to Sikhism

   Sikhism in the diaspora

   New Sikh converts

7. Institutions

   Places of worship (Gurdwaras)

   Harimandir Sahib, Akal Takht (spirtual and temporal - duties of both)

   SGPC and other gurdwara administration committees

8. Sects and groups

   Talk about differing groups of Sikhs (including caste distinctions which still persist contrary to Sikh teachings)

   Udasis, Nirankaris and others

In addition, we need to get rid of the mass of links at the bottom of the page, as well as the audio files which are not relevant on this page. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Pictures and Table

I don't see the need in having 2 pictures of men wearing turbans. I think one of them should be replaced by a picture of one of the 5 K's or maybe even a picture of a Guru.

Also, I think the order of the columns in the table containing information about the Gurus needs to be changed. I think all dates should be read in chronological order, which means that the "Date of Birth" column should come before the "Guruship on" column. This to me is a more logical order. Mandy Kaur 16:05, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with your comments. We'll incorporate your commments in the re-write. The dates of the Gurus also need fact checking and have been flagged for some while. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, all done. Please check the new picture. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 17:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

That is a much better picture, thank you! There is something I am unsure about though and I hope someone can resolve the matter. In that table about the Gurus it says that Guru Nanak received his guruship the day he was born. Is this a widely accepted belief amongst the Sikh community? I ask because I had always thought that Guru Nanak became a Guru the day he emerged from the river Bain and said "There is neither Hindu nor Muslim..." and recited the Mool Mantra for the first time. I am not entirely sure though. Am I mistaken to believe this? Mandy Kaur 17:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It could also be viewed that as there was nobody (well, apart from God I suppose), to pass their guruship onto him, he was a guru since birth. I believe your way of looking at it is definately better and I will change it. By the way, feel free to edit any of the articles on Misplaced Pages. There are plenty of problems on the Sikhism-related pages and none were really written by scholars. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Styles

I'm a bit unsure how to proceed with general styling in the article.

• Punjabi written in Gurmukhi does not have a complex set of consonant clusters so sometimes the inherent 'a' is dropped without it being indicated in writing. Should we transcribe with or without the 'a'?
• Also, when should we transliterate formally or use less formal transliterations (waheguru vs. vahigurū)?
• Should we refer to the Guru's as Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh, or just Nanak, Gobind Singh?

Any opinions? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 01:04, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, we need to standardise on the original Gurmukhi spelling of the Guru's names. There are so many English variations it's not even funny. :D Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd go with "Guru Nanak", etc. - that is, leave off final 'a' and append 'Guru'. Graft 21:20, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the less formal transliterations would be appropriate here, but only in the cases where one is more known than the other like Waheguru should be used instead of vahiguru. Also I think we should keep the Guru in the names as that is what most Sikhs call them by. It is most important to keep this in it.Gsingh 22:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, the way I've done it now is to initially (outside of the intro) refer to each Guru fully with appropriate transliteration ("Gurū Nānak Dēv"), and everywhere else referred to each guru directly by their name ("Nānak") unless the context determines that I should use the full form. However, this is a problem that needs unification and standardisation across all India pages, so I'll work on that too now (see Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Indic)). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that you should still use Guru in front of the name at all times, it would be disrespectful not to. Maybe use Guru Nanak as the short for instead of Guru Nanak Dev. Gsingh 20:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand that Sikhs use long respectful titles for the Gurus, but that is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages. Other editors have raised the issue before and I do agree that Guru is an honorific title. I have no problem using it when initially introducing the gurus (i.e. stating that they are Gurus in Sikhism), but it's cumbersome and arguably not NPOV to carry on using it throughout the article. For example, if we take Muhammad as an example, you see that he is not referred to as "Prophet Muhammad" (unless distinguishing him from other people called Muhammad), nor is PBUH added at the end of his name. This is not a case of being disrespectful, just a matter of maintaining a neutral POV. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Why there isn't an article for "Sikhs"

I find it kind of surprising that "Sikh" redirects to "Sikhism". Ideally there should be two separate articles namely "Sikh" and "Sikhism", with the former concentrating of history and social life of Sikhs and the later focusing on religious philosophy and principles of Sikhism. Any opinions?

Sisodia 08:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I had a discussion with Rama's Arrow before regarding this issue. At the time I felt there wasn't enough of a need for the article because there wasn't enough information on this page. However, as we're fixing this page up now, there may be a case to distinguish the two. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 11:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

History Section

I've finally finished cleaning up and sourcing the history section. It gives a very basic outline and is very sparse. It need much more about the Gurus, aswell as post-Guru history. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 13:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Scripture

I need some help here distinguishing between Adi Granth (pronounced Aad Granth, not Adi Granth!) and the Guru Granth Sahib. The two terms are used synonymously all the time so it can get confusing. However, I'm thinking about making the distinction that the Adi Granth (the first book) will be the version created by Guru Arjan, and the GGS will be the version that Guru Gobind Singh made as the final Guru. What do people feel about this distinction? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Further reading of Gurinder Mann's "Making of Sikh Scripture", indicates that the elevation of the Adi Granth to an immortal Guru was what turned it into the 'Guru Granth Sahib'. Not necessarily the additions made by Guru Gobind Singh, but the actual act of making it the final guru was what turned it into the Guru Granth Sahib. So, what's everyone's take on this? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 23:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Guru Granth Sahib

I see on the article that Guru Gobind Singh is referred to as the last guru, maybe this should be changed to the last living Guru, as the GGS is now the last and eternal Guru. What does everyone else think. I'm referring to the picture in which Guru Gobind Singh is shown. Gsingh 00:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hari Singh's Comments

I've just pasted these comments from my talk page: Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sukh and Rama's Arrow,

It is great to know that you are both working to make the Sikhism article of featured article calibre. If there is anything I can help with, please do not hesitate to ask – and thank you for the opportunity to give some input. I have had a quick look and the article looks quite good – I will have a better look in the next few days and make my comments in more detail on the talk page on Sikhism.

Just my initial thoughts and to make the article broad in its coverage - I believe some of the revolutionary ideas of our Gurus don't seem to appear in any detail:

• More on the beliefs & practise, ie:

• Equality of women – back in the 1500's - that pretty outstanding – don't you think? – see article Women in Sikhism

• Equality of castes/race including the "untouchables" - when the rest of the world was trading in slaves.

• Concept of Langar as propelled by the second & third guru; Etc

• Personally I would prefer less history - but I will leave that to you or may be look at this point later.

Hey, you are doing a Great job - Keep up the good work!! --Hari Singh 00:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I haven't really looked below anything under the scripture section just yet and as such those sections are expected to be pretty rough! I agree with most of your points, however I think the history section is going to have to get larger!  :) We haven't yet discussed much about Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh - and they have been by far the most influential of the ten gurus. We also haven't discussed post-guru Sikhism :) I don't really want to go into great depth, but the issues need to be mentioned.

Please feel free to add or change anything that looks wrong or odd. However, please ensure that you add references to reliable third parties because we need these to get it to a featured article. I'll take into account all your points and see what I can do as I work my way down the article. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

use of name Golden Temple

The name Golden Temple should be used sparingly, the name used should be Harimandir Sahib, which is the name that the SPGC has said is the only name that should be used. Gsingh 00:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have attached a link for your reference, link1 Gsingh 00:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

PINSAC nomination

I have nominated this article for being an SA on Portal:India, as I feel it does exemplify Misplaced Pages's very best India-related work. Comments can be made here. Thanks. Srikeit 03:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments by Rama's Arrow

I've copied these from my talk page and where they were posted by Rama's Arrow:

In order for the article to be comprehensive, the following questions need to be answered:

1. After the death of the last guru, who provided religious and spiritual leadership to the community? Who does that today (i.e. SGPC)?
2. What is the Sikh priestly order? Who is responsible for individual gurudwaras?
3. Observations - rites of initiation (very prominent one, needs proper description), birth, marriage and death, festivals celebrated.
4. Connection with Hinduism - I've worked to clarify the philosophical link of Sikhism with Hindu philosophy, but there are practical life connections that need explaining. I.e, (1) What place does Hindu mythology and Gods such as Rama have in Sikh life and theology, as the pic suggests that Sikhs celebrate Diwali? (2) What about the tradition that the first male child of every Hindu Punjabi family became a Sikh to protect the religion and community? Here, Khushwant Singh's comment that Sikhs are kesh Hindus needs explanation.
5. Social reform in society - Nanak's new order brought major social changes in the Punjab, with the elimination of caste distinctions and Hindu-Muslim rivalry amongst the believing communities. What exactly are these principles? needs a sub-section in "Philosophy and teachings."
6. Sikhs, Observances - somehow I feel that these two sections are not complete. There needs to be more information on Sikh traditions, culture, family values and religious adherence.

Right, I'll attempt to deal with your comments one by one!

1. Well, the Guru Granth Sahib provides the spiritual leadership to the community. However, in terms of Sikh personalities, I believe it would have been Banda Singh Bahadur, then the misls, then Ranjit Singh. Although none of these were spirtual figure heads, they were community leaders/warriors. The SGPC is merely responsible for the the administration and upkeep of gurdwaras in the Punjab. The Akal Takht is responsible for matters relating to temporal (non-religous issues). The Harimandir Sahib is reponsible for matters relating to spirtual issues. I'm not in a knowledgeable position when it comes to such issues, but a good place to start looks like this: .
2. There is no priestly order. Anything that holds a Guru Granth Sahib is considered a gurdwara. In Punjab, historical gurdwaras are controlled by the SGPC. Other gurdwaras around the world are controlled by individuals or communities.
3. Observations - yes need to add all that you've written there.
4. Sikhs celebrate Diwali as "Bandi Chhorh Divas" and it's not celebrated for the same reasons as Hinduism (see the Diwali article for further details). Hindu Gods are readily referred to in the Guru Granth Sahib; sometimes as direct references to the avatars themselves, or as a broad reference to God. Most of the followers of Sikhism were Hindus (as were the families of the Sikh gurus), and so naturally terminology that they would have found useful is what was used. It is definately true that traditionally the first male of many Hindu families in the Punjab was raised a Sikh. However, I'm not sure about the specifics of this nor when/how it started. I have read somewhere that it may have been heavily influenced by the fact that it was a huge economic incentive to raise a child as a Sikh because then they could join the British Army (Sikhs were heavily favoured over other groups). You're welcome to research this further.
5. Yes, we need this section.
6. Yes, this needs improvement too.

I'll add what needs to be done to the to do box above. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

If you wish to confuse yourself about Sikhism/Hinduism and their connection, please visit . I make no claims as to the accuracy of anything written on the site though! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed an off-topic message to Talk:Sikhism/Off topic messages. See Misplaced Pages:talk page for guidelines for talk pages. Please use this talk page only for messages to improve this article. Andries 20:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

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