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Comments

I have begun creating a new article here at the original location. For the record, roughly two months ago I proposed splitting the Tanka article into classical waka and modern tanka, since it is anachronistic for the word tanka to refer to any poems between the 10th century and the 19th century, or to cover chōka, etc. Introducing an article on classical waka brings us more into line with Japanese and other language versions of Misplaced Pages and keeps terminology consistent, and I got no opposition to the move. elvenscout742 (talk) 15:24, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

'Stanzaic form'?

Is it correct to include Waka in the category Stanzaic form (as has just been done with this edit)? A stanza is a unit within a larger poem, so it's surely wrong to include haiku (which I'm about to remove), but what about the longer forms of waka - did they consist of multiple "stanzas", thus justifying the inclusion of this article in the category? It's also worth noting that waka is not a form, but a genre including multiple forms - perhaps another contra-indicator for its inclusion in that category. --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 13:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

How many ku in a tanka?

At the end of the opening section we currently read, "Tanka (hereafter referred to as waka) consist of five lines (句, ku, literally "phrases") of 5-7-5-7-7 on or syllabic units." Usually, when we come across reference to 'ku' in the context of tanka, we read something along the lines of: "the first three measures were traditionally called the kami-no-ku (upper measure) and the last two, the shimo-no-ku (lower measure)." (From Shirane's Traditional Japanese Literature: An Anthology, Beginnings to 1600, p90). Similarly, we read that a kasen consists of 36 ku. Should we really be speaking of "ku the Greater" and "ku the Lesser", where one type of ku can consist of 2 or 3 of the other type of ku? --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 13:40, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if you're still active on Misplaced Pages, but I didn't notice this query until now. Basically it seems to me that "ku the Greater" and "ku the Lesser" are mis-translations of "kami-no-ku" (upper phrase or upper phrases) and "shimo-no-ku" (lower phrase or lower phrases) respectively. It is, however, perfectly acceptable to use either "ku" or "phrase" or "measure" to mean either the individual "ku" of 5/7 morae, or either one of the "kami-no-ku" or "shimo-no-ku". For an unambiguous us of "ku" to mean only one of the phrases, try "shoku" (初句). elvenscout742 (talk) 03:56, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

envoi

I haven't got around to explicitly listing my sources (checking page numbers for material I read months ago is difficult), but my source for the use of the word "envoy" as a translation for hanka is Keene 1999. He doesn't say envoi but "envoy", and it seems more appropriate to use the exact translation given in reliable sources, rather than a French cognate without a source. I don't know enough about European poetry to propose a move for the envoi article to envoy (poetry) in accordance with WP:UE (in discussion of European poetry it may be overwhelmingly more common than the English word). But an article on Japanese literature should use English-language sources. (Sorry if I sound somewhat pompous. I am just having flashbacks to the Southern Court.（笑）) elvenscout742 (talk) 02:16, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

The two terms are synonymous in English, i.e. envoi is not a French cognate (though it undoubtedly started life as one) but an English word (cf. this) so we'd need to establish which word is more commonly used before moving over the redirect. The fact that envoi is more distinct is probably worth considering too, but I have no strong feelings either way. My edit here was only concerned with linking to an existing article rather than to a redlink (I only set up the redirect envoy (poetry) subsequently). --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 14:08, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Waka which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 02:46, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring by 182.249.241.*

The above IP has removed a reference from the article three times this month. The citation in question is to an article on waka by a respected japanologist, Professor Harold Wright. While it may be argued that a single reference to the assertion is adequate, there is nothing to be gained by removing a second one.

The IP has consistently been using edit summaries inappropriately, and I have drawn their attention to WP:REVTALK, which states:
"Avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates or negotiation over the content or to express opinions of the other users involved. This creates an atmosphere where the only way to carry on discussion is to revert other editors! If you notice this happening, start a section on the talk page and place your comments there. This keeps discussions and debates away from the article page itself."

I have no interest in edit-warring, but this IP's purely negative editing pattern is disruptive. He appears to wish to draw in some debate about sockpuppets, which is entirely irrelevant to this article. Pot/kettle, not interested (except to point out that "Logging out to make problematic edits as an IP address" also counts as puppetry). --gråb whåt you cån (talk) 23:10, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

You are the one who is defying consensus here. At Talk:Haiku both Hijiri88 and Icuc2 agreed that online poetry magazines should not be used qhen better sources are available, and in this case we have such a source already. Also, basic statements of fact that couldn't possibly be controversial probably don't even need ONE source.

Additionally, please see the links in my email to you, or my earlier edit summary, for the reason I am unable to log in. Stop trolling and making real-world threats /threats to out me. Thatc's a good way to get your ass indefinitely blocked.

Cheers!

182.249.241.38 (talk) 01:50, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

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