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Isotopes in infobox

I just realised that the infobox doesn't currently state which are just theoretical predictions (other than the implications of the > in the half-life, but even that could be genuine if you just observe one decay). Any ideas what to do about this? (It's caused some editors some confusion; see the history for Mercury (element), where Hg got listed with the radioisotopes in the "Isotopes" section until I came and fixed it back...) Double sharp (talk) 02:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Like this?: write Hg in the data row (|sym=Hg*) and add |isotopes comment=* = predicted below the isotopes subtable (that parameter exists; adding the footnote when already in use is possible). I see only this problem: when the isotope name would be linked (using |link1=mercury-196), the asterisk now is part of the wikilabel: Hg. To prevent that, it would require a parameter addition to the six isotopes-subtemplates (e.g. |fn1=*). -DePiep (talk) 13:03, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Would rather not use *; it usually means an excited state in this context. Footnote numbers can be confused because they look like an intrinsic part of the nuclide notation with their formatting and positioning, which they are not. Italicisation could work with a note saying "italicised half-lives and decay modes are predictions"; the latter is especially helpful for Ca, where one listed decay mode is experimentally observed, but not the other. So that's my suggestion. :-)

BTW, can we make the use of EC/ε consistent? (I mentioned this before.) We don't actually see both in one infobox, but we should really have consistency across infoboxes. (Also, "ECEC" for Ba – yes, it does happen, though ββ is far more common – looks just weird compared to "εε" IMO.) Double sharp (talk) 09:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

We only should disallow exact similars, and allow other notations. So, if I read you well, these are bad footnote links: ...* and Hg, right? That could leave the option .... Really, if Hg (or: ...) is not a standard writing form within isotope world, we can use it for footnote (I am not into scientific notations in this, so pls check me). And next: using italics to mark something (other than: word accentuation) I do not accept, because a reader does not get the footnote association. Nowhere in wiki pages that marking is recognised. (In ELEM we also use brackets like "(Uus)" meaning predicted -- another weird jargon thing).

re EC/ε: that could be ε everywhere. If only my WP:AWB functioned, I could sweep the infoboxes for this. -DePiep (talk) 19:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Adding: anything similar about "IT" as in Scandium isotopes; "SF" in Dubnium? -DePiep (talk) 22:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

IT and SF can stay as they are. (BTW, just a side note: γ is different from SF, as in gamma decay the decaying isomer does not have to be metastable). Double sharp (talk) 06:09, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

P.S. alphabetical footnotes are a very good choice. Double sharp (talk) 06:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Changed EC into ε for Lr. No more EC in infoboxes.

We might choose a consistent format for "β+ (96.9%)" vs "96.9% β+". The % is added in some 20? infoboxes. -DePiep (talk) 12:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Would personally prefer putting the more basic info first, i.e. decay mode before percentage. But can see it work the other way too; that's like English having adjectives preceding nouns. For me the only important thing regarding that is consistency. Double sharp (talk) 14:54, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Note: "EC" is used elsewhere too . -DePiep (talk) 17:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

That can be changed too. Double sharp (talk) 01:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree 100% that the most important thing is consistency. Having said that, I think it better to have % first, then the space between the '%' and the decay mode could be omitted. My biggest concern is to try to keep the information compact so as to avoid unnecessary word-wrapping within the cells. There is a lot of information in a small chart, and adding the percentage makes it more difficult to squeeze everything in. At any event, if % is first, the cell should be left justified; if it is 2nd, the cell should be right justified; if it is missing, the cell should be center justified. YBG (talk) 17:44, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

As for widths and wrapping: I agree we do not want two-row texts in this. We can do: a. {{nowrap}} input (may make the box wider) and/or b. remove brackets around % value. This last think looks better when we put % in 2nd position (also my choice for being topic-before-detail; also helps visual vertical aligning). When % then left-align. Unanswered: always add the % value? -DePiep (talk) 18:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I would support adding the % value throughout (but only when it is known, naturally). Decay pathways with sufficiently low probabilities (feel free to suggest something suitable? < 10%? < 10%?) may be ignored altogether. Double sharp (talk) 13:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Either of these lower limits would work, but I think we should consistently report the percentage in the form ##.#% or #.#%, i.e., a precision of 10%. If the probability is less than 0.1% but greater than the selected threshold, I'd suggest using the form "<0.1%". IMHO, greater precision is not important enough to merit devoting the extra infobox real estate, but feel free to disagree.

To promote what I think is a pleasing visual appearance, I'd like to (a) align decimal points and % signs vertically and (b) have white space on the edges of the cell. Together, these two criteria lead me to prefer displaying the percentage to the left of the decay mode, with a leading fixed space before probabilities from 0.1% to 9.9%. YBG (talk) 14:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Works for me. Double sharp (talk) 14:37, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Me too.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 21:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Waiting to be implemented. The variable alignment might be a nut to crack. -DePiep (talk) 16:39, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Hydrogen#Missing data, article structure

Several good and action-on-able (I insist! though I grudgingly accept "reliable") points and requests. Double sharp (talk) 14:27, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Is anybody looking here? Double sharp (talk) 09:37, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Heat capacity ambiguous with gaseous elements -- add Cp?

A talk started at Template talk:Infobox argon: . The editor pointed out that we should add "C_p" to the data. Here is the original post, I copy:

"For a gas, the term "heat capacity" isn't specific enough. Constant volume and constant pressure heat capacities differ greatly, and there should be an indication of which heat capacity is given. It turns out that the number listed is at constant pressure, but I had to dig to confirm this. Perhaps the link to "heat capacity" should lead to an explanation that is directly clarifying, or the annotation (C_p) could be inserted. I’ve inserted (C_p) in the entry here. Something similar should be done wherever this issue arises. Harold f (talk) 16:12, 6 July 2013 (UTC)"

I have no opinion, I am just moving the talk central here for all elements. I'll notify the posting editor. -DePiep (talk) 17:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I strongly suggest adding the C_p label, also an archived talk suggests a "calculated" label could be needed.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 21:35, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The heat capacity should be labeled. Cp is probably the better one if you have both. Cp and Cv are convertible via some equation.TCO (talk) 04:06, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

What do you both mean by "label"? In WP code, it can mean this: ] ("Mercury" is a label for the link). It can also mean this: in the infobox, there is an infobox label: the "Molar heat capacity" text (that is: the lefthand column text). And maybe, 3rd, you mean to add "C_p" to the (righthand) value (which is not a label, we agree)? Wikitechically, we can do all crisp requests. So please make it crisp. -DePiep (talk) 22:32, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

3rd (not a label, but (sorry, R8R!) R8R (mis)used the term, not me!), like how we do it for superheavy elements (e.g. {{Infobox rutherfordium}}, {{Infobox hassium}}) with "(predicted)". Is that clear and crisp? Double sharp (talk) 11:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

But note that it should only be done for gases (H, He, N, O, F, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe, Rn). Double sharp (talk) 11:29, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Chalcogen

Two things about the chalcogen article:

1. As I have addressed many of the issues raised at Talk:Chalcogen#A-class review, can someone take another look at it?
2. Since Chalcogen#Compounds is getting massive and unwieldy, should it be split? Jakob _C2 20:39, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

As always, as I say: look at Alkali metal (shameless plug done). Seriously, it has flaws, but I think the idea to divide compounds by type is a good one. It obviously doesn't work so well for the chalcogens, but do consider implementing it. It will make it look a whole lot less massive. Also, more pictures there, please.

Also: I finally responded as to why Britannica is unacceptable here. Double sharp (talk) 11:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Implementing option 10

I'm starting this thread here in order to keep the archive clock ticking on the massive parent thread.

There are four votes in support of this option, which was to divide the nonmetals (aside from the noble gases) into polyatomic and diatomic subcategories, and to show astatine as a metalloid: myself, DePiep, YBG and Double sharp.

A couple of recently discovered references have reminded me to seek to progress option 10. The first ref was Karkhanavala (1973. p. 61) who, in writing about heats of atomization, commented in part that, '…the differences are mainly in the p-block elements of the p to p configurations which form the di- and poly-atomic molecules.' There is nothing new in this author's observation. I was just struck by the reference to diatomic and polyatomic molecules in groups 13–17, in one sentence. The second reference was Brady and Senese (2009, pp. 858–63) who discuss, at some length, why the diatomic nonmetals form diatomic molecules (due to their electronic configuration, or small size which facilitates pi bonds) and why the remaining nonmetals, not counting the noble gases, form more complex structures (electronic configuration, or larger size: not so good at pi bonds; prefer sigma bonds). I don’t recall seeing such a well illustrated and relatively detailed explanation in any other chemistry textbook.

Anyway, here are my intended and proposed actions, and questions as to the way ahead.

1. Update the new nonmetal article in my sandbox to incorporate Brady and Senese Done Sandbh (talk) 12:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
2. Post a summary of the parent thread discussion, as to the pros and cons of option 10, here Done (see below) Sandbh (talk) 06:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
3. @YBG: do you remain of the view that we should advertise the vote more broadly? Update: I'll run this proposal past Chemed-l, a Google Groups chemistry education discussion group I subscribe to (> 1,000 members). Sandbh (talk) 12:29, 5 August 2013 (UTC) Update 2: the proposal went out on Tuesday Aug 6. I figure leave it out there for a week. Sandbh (talk) 12:41, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
4. Replace the current nonmetal article with the updated new version
5. Introduce the new categorisation scheme to the periodic table article
6. Roll out the new scheme to the rest of the templates
7. @DePiep: Would you be able to help with 5 and 6?

Comments welcome. Sandbh (talk) 11:57, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• Brady JE & Senese F 2009, Chemistry: Matter and its changes, 5th ed., John Wiley & Sons, Hoboken, NJ.
• Karkhanavala MD 1973, ‘Properties of elements in relation to the periodic table’, in TR Seshadri (ed.), Mendeleyev's periodic classification of elements and its applications, Proceedings of the symposium held at ITT Kharagpur to celebrate the centenary of Mendeleyev's periodic classification: Under the auspices of the Indian Chemical Society and Indian National Science Academy, Hindustan Publishing Corporation, Delhi, pp. 31–130.

• re #7 @DePiep: I will help. With background color & legends & smartness. Not with science or sources: I am not a scientist. -DePiep (talk) 22:54, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

While I agree with the idea of more widely advertising the vote, the last time we tried that with WP Chemistry, it went extremely well indeed (not). Double sharp (talk) 16:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Please, Double sharp, state 'Yes'. Elements need clarity. -DePiep (talk) 22:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

They do indeed. My point was that the last time we tried contacting WP Chemistry on this matter, we didn't even get a single reply... Double sharp (talk) 11:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• I kinda missed most of the megadiscussion happening, but there one thing that I thought of pointing out: if we are going to the monoatomic-diatomic-polyatomic division, I am wondering if the separation between the diatomic and polyatomic is not a bit artificial. Sure it is simple, but I am wondering if the separation ought to be molecular vs polymeric nonmetals (in their most stable state). This doesn't mean much of a chance because only S8 should be added to the list of E2 sub-group, but leave out P4 (it is not the most stable allotrope). This is just a thought that I thought of pointing out. Nergaal (talk) 04:43, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

@Nergaal To me, this reads like a content issue, not implementation issue (nor !voting #10). Since respected contributor Nergaal says I kinda missed most of the megadiscussion happening, I suggest Nergaal tries to pick this up way above (huge it is indeed). Otherwise, contacting users like Sandbh with a question will give more reply & clarity than you might expect. -DePiep (talk) 20:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Nergaal: The existence of diatomic and polyatomic nonmetals arises out of the interaction of atomic and electronic properties. Diatomic nonmetals form diatomic molecules due to either needing just one electron to attain a noble gas configuration or because they are small enough (N, O) to be able to form triple or double bonds to attain noble gas configs. Conventional wisdom is that triple bonding is the limit for main-group elements. Since C needs four electrons to complete its octet, but is still a relatively small atom, it gets around this problem by forming three single sigma bonds and one delocalised pi bond (pi bonding being more characteristic of small atoms), resulting in graphite. The larger size of the remaining non-noble nonmetals weakens their capacity to form multiple bonds, via pi bonding, and they instead form polyatomic structures, featuring two or more single bonds, in order to achieve completed octets. So, the distinction between polyatomic and diatomic nonmetals, as well as being simple, is more fundamental than artificial.

The mega-discussion considered the P question. The leaning was towards the inclusion of white P since this was the standard state of P, rather than black P, the most thermodynamically stable form. Instead of having a prolonged debate about the pros and cons of standard state v most thermodynamically stable state, option 10 accommodates both forms as they are each polyatomic. Therefore P would be counted as a polyatomic nonmetal.

Does that help? Sandbh (talk) 08:05, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Come to think of it, I think the di- vs poly- is the simplest to grasp. What I was thinking was maybe more correct from some point of views, but much less clear to a non-expert. Nergaal (talk) 09:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Megathanks to Sandbh for summarizing the megadiscussion. WP:WikiThanks to DePiep for thinking through what would need to change. And thank you both (and Double sharp) for your patience and willingness to take my suggestions. I have glanced through the sandbox PT, and it looks like it is ready for prime time. YBG (talk) 06:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

In answer to the question above, I do think it would be good to advertise this discussion and the vote broadly, mostly because the discussion has been between a relatively small number of people. However, if invitations have been posted elsewhere without much response, then I'd say that is good enough. Any new advertising should clearly point to the megadiscussion summary and specifically request that interested parties vote in the appropriate place. It would be good to summarize the sorts of outreach that have been done to add credence to the relatively small number of votes. (By the way, I only count three (not four) formal votes that Support the change -- YBG, Sandbh, and DePiep.) YBG (talk) 06:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Mine is just before the start of the "Selenium – nonmetal or metalloid" subsection. As you can see, I took quite some convincing! :-) Double sharp (talk) 10:47, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Megadiscussion summary

This is a summary of the parent thread discussion, as to the pros and cons of option 10.

The discussion originated with sorting out the categorisation of polonium (now agreed to be better shown as a metal) and astatine (now agreed to be better shown as a metalloid). It then flowed into what to do about the halogen category, given the change in category of astatine, and if we could come up with something more useful than the nondescript 'other nonmetal' category.

We considered at least ten options:
1. core nonmetals (inc. F, Cl, Br, I)
2. hydrogen | typical nonmetals = based on H not being a typical nonmetal
3. moderately active | highly active nonmetals = based on EN, and HSAB principle
3a. moderately electronegative | highly electronegative
3b. typical nonmetals (inc. F, Cl, Br, I)
4. unspecified nonmetals | halogens (just F, Cl, Br, I)
5. reactive nonmetals = as compared to non-reactive noble gases
6. reactive | highly reactive nonmetals = based on literature descriptions
7. reactive | corrosive nonmetals = ditto
8. reactive | highly reactive nonmetals = ditto (caustic or corrosive, or both)
9. s-block metals | reactive nonmetals
10. diatomic nonmetals | polyatomic nonmetals

Along the way concerns and observations were presented about:

1. the arbitrary nature of some of these distinctions (e.g. there is no 'reactivity' ruler or measure);
2. the credibility of putting H into its own category;
3. keeping the alkali and alkaline earth metals as separate categories;
4. the meaning of the terms 'moderately active' and 'highly active nonmetal';
5. original research (OR);
6. cutting nonmetals into two subcategories;
7. using scientific criteria;
8. 'other nonmetals' being either an easily understood term or one not conveying any information;
9. keeping things simple hence having less categories;
10. what to about P (white or black?);
11. whether anyone else splits the non-noble nonmetals when coloring a periodic table;
12. the logic of splitting the s-block metals into two categories;
13. showing in picture form what is written in the literature as not being OR;
14. there being no perfect categorisation scheme;
15. the presence or absence of metallic character in elements with incomplete valence shells corresponding to periodic trends in reactivity and structure
16. the 'established organization' of splitting the non-noble nonmetals into two categories;
17. 'boundary issues';
18. average reader being surprised/puzzled by new nonmetal subcategories;
19. the many ways to split the non-noble nonmetals, all with good chemical reasons and none clearly standing out from the others, being an argument in itself not to split them.

YBG subsequently proposed that any new categorisation scheme be (a) clear—'The criterion for division should be easily explained'; (b) unambiguous—'It should be relatively obvious which category each element fits into'; and (c) meaningful—'The categories should have significance more than just dividing for the sake of dividing. There should be enough within-group similarity and enough between-group dissimilarity so that each group could be the subject of a separate encyclopaedia article.'

Option 10 divides the nonmetals into the three categories of polyatomic nonmetal (C, P, S, Se); diatomic nonmetal (H, N, O, F, Cl, Br, I); and noble gas (all of which are monatomic). A fully sourced draft rewrite of the nonmetal article, using these proposed categories, can be found here. A draft periodic table template, which includes the two proposed (new) nonmetal categories, can be found at {{periodic table (nonmetals variant)/sandbox}}. The template includes group names so that the halogens, for example, can (still) be identified.

Option 10's pros (e.g. meets YBG's criteria; consistent with, and anchored in, fundamental atomic and electronic properties discussed in the literature) are thought to outweigh any concerns (e.g. 5 OR v 13 literature; 6 v 16 two subcategories; 17 boundaries v 14 no perfection; 19 v YBG's criteria). The previous sentence is a high-level summary and will not necessarily cover all aspects and nuances of this massive discussion. Sandbh (talk) 06:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

HAHAHAHA just checked and apparently in mid-March the massive parent thread already had 189 replies (is this a record?) Double sharp (talk) 17:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

m Thanks for destilling this overview, Sandbh. Helpful, especially at this point in the process. I guess Ds enjoyed the destillation too ;-) -DePiep (talk) 20:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Just to say: below is a list of other wiki PT pages to compare. -DePiep (talk) 21:56, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Hey guys, does this discussion also sets in stone things we agreed on earlier (up the page)? Like group 12 being TM for practical purposes and such?--R8R Gtrs (talk) 10:10, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I suppose it does (group 12 being TM I'm not so sure about currently, but rest assured that it is probably because I am currently high on Jensen and will probably return to normal once I return to being high on Holleman & Wiberg.) Double sharp (talk) 10:43, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

In archive #15, under 'Checkpoint summary,' my take on the situation was that we agreed p-block metals = poor metals; group 3 membership = Sc, Y, Lu, Lr; that group 12 was worth further arguments or consideration; and that group 11 fell under 'Quibbles: probably not worth revisiting right now.' I'm too far behind on other threads and other things to start anything on group 12 for the forseeable future. Sandbh (talk) 12:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

So, (re)introducing poor metal(s) for PTM is definitely not part of option 10? -DePiep (talk) 14:03, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

That one IMHO should be part of it. We did get a consensus for it (see here) and it is a simple rename (no elements actually change colour; the legend just changes a bit). So yes, change "post-transition metals" to "poor metals". Double sharp (talk) 14:29, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Sandbh, or others: please confirm that changing the category name "post-transition metal(s)" → "poor metal(s)" is part of this decision. -DePiep (talk) 10:47, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it was. Part of the reason was to eliminate any argy-bargy as to whether aluminium is or is not a post-transition metal. Sandbh (talk) 12:01, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

en:wiki consequences for option 10

If and when option 10 is accepted here at en:WT:ELEM, we want to implement the consequences in en:wp. The decision (consensus) on option 10 is science & source based; the implementation from there is en:wiki-based. This subsection only pertains to the wiki-implementation: just new bg-colors and wikilinks (two each). Other talk, especially including any new categorisation of elements, is science so is not here.

Note: Notes and names below may change following improvements, without elaborate explanation -DePiep (talk) 17:53, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Relevant pages

• User:Sandbh/sandbox to be Nonmetal article page (base).
• {{Periodic table (nonmetals variant)/sandbox}} current example P.T. with option 10
• {{Periodic table legend/Category-polyatomic}} option 10 into the legend

Defining

• {{Periodic table (nonmetals variant)}} other name, preferred not to suggest 'variant of'. → {{Periodic table (category-metallishness)}}?

When option 10 is agreed upon, this is what the basic {{Periodic table}} will looks like. ({{Periodic table (nonmetals variant)/sandbox}} then can & will be deleted, it is just a discussion prop). -DePiep (talk) 16:20, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• {{Periodic table legend/Category-polyatomic}} (Moved from development-name {{Periodic table legend/Category-nonmetals variant}}: not 'variant of' name.), and
  

{{Periodic table legend/Category-polyatomic compact}}

• Polyatomic nonmetal:new page, a Redirect to Nonmetal#Polyatomic_nonmetals (which will contain section User:Sandbh/sandbox#Polyatomic_nonmetals)
• Diatomic nonmetal: new page, a Redirect to Nonmetal#Diatomic_nonmetals (which will contain section User:Sandbh/sandbox#Diatomic_nonmetals)
• Colors are defined below.
• halogen(s): deprecated as a category. Will only be used for the group 17 name.
• other nonmetal(s): Deprecated, disused. Will disappear from en:wp.

-DePiep (talk) 23:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC) -DePiep (talk) 13:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC) -DePiep (talk) 17:53, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Choosing the two new (proposed) colors

We need colors for polyatomic nonmetal (predicted) and polyatomic nonmetal (predicted). Until now, I have set the old other nonmetal (predicted) ... pair, which is not good enough for us.

Deciding colors

polyatomic nonmetal (predicted) This color can be derived from its master, using the same shift that worked well on some other (predicted) colors. (Technically: convert RGB color to HSV color, and halve the S value ;-) ). My proposal is shown below (as a fixed one), but feel free to react. diatomic nonmetal (predicted) This is harder to state for me: the derived color might be too light. So I added some shifted ones from that primary derived color. Below first are the fixed known colors (and the bad old color). What follows are five proposals A B C D E. Any preferences? -DePiep (talk) 09:45, 8 August 2013 (UTC) 1. Known colors (polyatomic p.: fixed) Y #a1ffc3 #eaffa1 #c0ffff #d0ffe1 t.b.d. #ddffff 2. old nonmetal p. color N polyatomic diatomic noble (predicted) #ffffd6 (predicted) Suggestions for diatomic nonmetal (predicted) to choose from: A ? polyatomic diatomic noble (predicted) #f6ffd4 (predicted) B ? polyatomic diatomic noble (predicted) #f5ffd0 (predicted) C ? polyatomic diatomic noble (predicted) #f4ffcc (predicted) D ? polyatomic diatomic noble (predicted) #f3ffc7 (predicted) E ? polyatomic diatomic noble (predicted) #f2ffc2 (predicted) Personal preference is for D or E. Could accept C, but would not support it. Definitely not A or B (too light). Double sharp (talk) 09:51, 8 August 2013 (UTC) E it will be. Actually, B is the calculated variant (halving the HSV Saturation value), but since the source yellow is light, that would be too light indeed. And of course, E is darker than the old "halogen (predicted)" yellow now in use. -DePiep (talk) 16:15, 9 August 2013 (UTC) Afterwards, I have chagned the master yellow colorinto more dark. Se explanation below. -DePiep (talk) 17:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC) Decision: See below for decision 2. -DePiep (talk) 16:15, 9 August 2013 (UTC) Decision 2: after setting the diatomic nonmetal (predicted) color (the light yellow), I have found the next. Since the predicted color showed to be was very light, I reasoned that the master color is too light in itself. So I have darkened it (HSV Saturation from 37% to 44%), resulting into #e7ff8f. These are the effects: being darker; so nicely being further away from its light brother; and the new yellow also stands out, is more tellingly, in the PT whole. It does not disappear against the white background any more. I took this freedom a. because the option 10 decision is not through yet, and b. there is leeway, we only use one yellow, and c. from personal bravoure & authority claim. If I am drowned for this, I'd like it to be in a mix of polyatomic and diatomic fluids, chosen for their bright colors.

Color decisions:

I have chosen the light yellow today, and afterwards decided to make the diatomic's yellow a bit darker (it is visible). See the collapsed part above for more background. -DePiep (talk) 17:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

-DePiep (talk) 17:28, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Legend

Standard {{Periodic table legend}}s:

Template:Periodic table legend/Category-polyatomic

Compact:

Template:Periodic table legend/Category-polyatomic compact

Janet left step:

Predicted elements?

Do we need colors for predicted polyatomic nonmetals and predicted diatomic nonmetals? Are there any such elements? -DePiep (talk) 13:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Added them. To simplify transition, they are the same as the old two predicted colors. -DePiep (talk) 18:45, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Changes

• Only two categories & bg-colors change. Elements H, N, O change category/color (border line changes). -DePiep (talk) 23:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Other language wikis

here's what the new table looks like

Copy-pasted the template from above, so doesn't reflect the current wikicode, but it's a good idea of what it would look like. I didn't add the predicted colours YET for the SHEs and UHEs (the latter not shown). See next section: we'll soon have to deal with this so we can roll the new option 10 scheme out to the extended periodic table pages too.

Double sharp (talk) 11:13, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

A tale of seven elements (2013)

Anybody had a look at this book yet? In chapter 10 'From missing elements to synthetic elements' Scerri discusses the impact of relativistic effects on elements 104 onwards. He notes that such effects peak in period 6 at gold---dubbed the 'gold maximum phenomenon' by Pyykkö. In period 7 he says that calculations by others (Schwerdtfeger & Seth 1998) have shown that the maximum relativistic effect should take place at element 112 (and drop away 'sharply' thereafter). He goes on to write that E112 and E114, contrary to initial predictions and experiments, behave more or less as expected for their place in the period table (E112 per Zn, Cd, Hg; E114 as eka-lead), and that, (again) contrary to earlier speculation, all of this would suggest that the chemistry of E115+ should behave as expected for their periodic table positions. He concludes this chapter by saying, 'This seems to be further testament to the underyling fundamental nature of the periodic law, which continues to stand firm against the threats from quantum mechanics and relativity combined together.' Sandbh (talk) 01:34, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• Scerri E 2013, A tale of seven elements, Oxford University Press, Oxford
• Schwerdtfeger M & Seth M 1998, 'Relativistic effects of the superheavy elements', in P vR Schleyer, NL Allinger, T Clark, J Gasteiger, HF Schaefer III, PR Schreiner (eds), The encyclopedia of computational chemistry, John Wiley & Sons, New York.

Earlier speculation? E115-118 behave pretty much as predicted – it's just the degree (e.g. 118 should be ignoble, though without relativity you wouldn't expect it to be as ignoble as it really is predicted to be). Double sharp (talk) 16:46, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, the context for my post was what our articles say about 112 ('It is predicted to differ significantly from lighter group 12 elements.') and 114 ('Some studies also suggest that the chemical behaviour of flerovium might in fact be closer to that of the noble gas radon, than to that of lead.'). Whereas Scerri's comments downplay this kind of (memorable) speculation. I know I could fix this myself with some edits however (cue violins of sympathy playing in the backgound) I have quite a few irons in the fire at the moment and only wanted to note what Scerri said, for reference. Sandbh (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

While we're on the subject of SHE and UHE chemistry predictions

O Sandbh, hast thou finished thy reading of the other Fricke paper with the HSAB principles that I gavest thou the link to? For I would fain be hearing thy comments once again and would rather not overburden the parent massively bloated 2/3-page-taking-up thread. (Feel free to continue reading from there.) Double sharp (talk) 07:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I can wait till the new nonmetal scheme finally gets rolled out though, I suppose. :-) (had enough of bad Early Modern English) Double sharp (talk) 10:49, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

No, strike that, I just realised we can't, unless we want to delay significantly the rolling out of this scheme to the articles that use {{Compact extended periodic table}}. So, my current proposal:

DePiep, please help me beautify the colours. :-) Double sharp (talk) 11:13, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

What is SHE and UHE? Does it have any overlap with the poly- and diatomic thread? -DePiep (talk) 13:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

SHE, UHE = superheavy element, ultraheavy element respectively. No formal dividing line, using here SHE = Z=104++ and UHE = Z=119++.

Overlap with poly/diatomic is only really for element 171. This thread is mainly finalizing how we colour elements 117, 118, 171, and 172 in our extended periodic table (which we started discussing in Archive 15 but never actually finished). My current proposal is (all predicted): 117 = metalloid, 118 = noble gas, 171 = diatomic nonmetal, 172 = noble gas. Sandbh and the rest will, I expect, have comments and suggestions.

I think we got consensus in Archive 15 that 117 = metalloid and 172 = noble gas, so it's really about elements 118 and 171. Yet now that reactivity isn't the basis for categorizing the nonmetals, 118 may have problems: it should be quite an ignoble gas, but probably not poly/diatomic!! And 172 is not even a gas. (Note: this is not an argument against option 10, which works very well for the elements we actually experience.) Double sharp (talk) 14:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

IIUC: So this thread deals with predicted polyatomic noinmetals and predicted diatomic nonmetals. Then what is the consequence for option 10 introduction? My take is that, once their legend colors & links are defined, there is no reason to halt the introduction. Even when not all extension elements are defenitively categorised (e.g. 171 may change), the option 10 rollout can go ahead. Individual elements can be changed by category easily. -DePiep (talk) 06:32, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

No real consequences, save maybe a few days' delay to get Sandbh to comment on this and a consensus be made regarding 118 and 171 (which shouldn't last long). But I must say that I would prefer to have just one huge change rather than have to have another small change to every single template (like I did running around to correct Po and Am–Cf some time ago; I don't want to do that if possible!), which is why I decided to discuss the categorization of 118 and 171 now instead of later. (Also: look out for element 118 infobox update!) Double sharp (talk) 06:36, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Their two (predicted) colors are defined (so one can use {{tl|element cell| ... | Polyatomic nonmetal (predicted)}} as regular). See my option 10 notes. -DePiep (talk) 18:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

@DePiep: could you make the yellow for predicted diatomic nonmetals a little more greenish, to fit with the basic diatomic nonmetal colour?

Yes, that would be better. -DePiep (talk) 06:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I should really check 171's properties again, as it's very debatable what its structure is like! Double sharp (talk) 05:29, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Double sharp. Pls go ahead and do not wait for me. I need to inter library loan a specialist book on the HSAB principle, and the timing is not right for me just now to do that. If this eventually results in the need for a recolouring of some extended periodic tables (it may not) I would hope that there would not be quite so many of these as there were non-extended periodic tables. Sandbh (talk) 12:11, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

OK then. I therefore reserve the right to do it this way the other option-10-related changes and let you make comments later. :-)

For anyone interested: my rationale for classifying 118 as a noble gas is basically what R8R Gtrs said in Archive 15 (and now since there's no "reactive nonmetal" subcategory, we have to put it there because it's still almost certainly monatomic in pure form.)

On 171, Fricke (among other things) states that (171) will be a hard base (see HSAB) like Cl, which would seem to make it a nonmetal. (Its electron affinity of 3.0 eV is close to that of I (and a little higher than that of At), so it is probably just a nonmetal in any case.)

What about polyatomic vs. diatomic structure? If 171 is like Cl, it is almost certainly diatomic. If it is more like I, it is a little more debatable. I'd leave it as diatomic until we get clearer info (I'm already searching!) Double sharp (talk) 15:06, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Attempting to get an answer at the science refdesk. Double sharp (talk) 13:20, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

less categories please?

If we are going to reform the periodic table, may I ask people here to consider removing the tons of categories we already have? Absolutely all the periodic tables I've seen only give one category for metals, and I see no reason to have 6, or 7 categories for them. Here are my proposals; feel free to comment:

• merge alkalis and alkalines into "s-block metals": what is the difference between the two? in actual chemistry people split transition metals into early and late TMs, but never the s-block
• merge all nonmetals asides from noble gases into "multy-atomic nonmetals" (as opposed to monoatomic noble gases): what is the point of separating out S, P, S, and Se?
• merge actinides and lanthanides int "f-block metals" or "intertransitional metals": they are chemically very similar, and only adds an extra color without really adding anything else to the readers
• possibly rename post-TM into "p-block metals"

Here is how it would look like. Nergaal (talk) 17:39, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't really agree (and have chemical reasons). (Absolutely all periodic tables? That must exclude all of them I've seen that are coloured!)

(1) s-block metals Covered already in Archive 15: they have different properties and can be compared with one another readily (name me one book that compares the s-block elements, not counting H and He, by some OTHER method than group 1/group 2). E.g. density uniformly goes down down group 1, but goes down then up down group 2. Also, as DePiep mentioned there: is it possible to write the article s-block metal without consistently dividing them by group? And the names alkali metal and alkaline earth metal are much more established and are not merely descriptive. Descriptive names are also not too informative. I can see these metals are in the s-block just by looking at the PT. So? Whereas "alkali metal" gives me an inkling that they are somehow related to alkalis (and indeed they are). See Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Elements/Archive 15#A streamlined option. Transition metal splitting is much less clear (except the line between group 12 and the others) and I would leave it as one whole group. We can talk about group 12 another time.

(2) multiatomic nonmetals The polyatomic/diatomic division corresponds neatly with reactivity and metallic character while simultaneously being much more clearly defined. See User:Sandbh/sandbox#Categories. So I would submit that this is quite helpful to the reader. On why to split the nonmetals in the first place, it's been discussed to death at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Elements/Archive 15 (which is why I won't give a separate section link – it's literally everywhere!)

(3) lanthanides/actinides They are actually quite distinct in chemical properties; early actinides are very different from the early lanthanides (up to around Am) and behave much more like the corresponding transition metals. Meanwhile late actinides can have weird main oxidation states like No having +2 as the main state. The former alone seems to justify splitting them.

(4) p-block metals: very descriptive and not very informative. Would prefer a label which gives far more information about their character than what you see in the PT (I can see they're in the p-block; so?)

So, I would consider Sandbh's Option 10 scheme much more informative and helpful to the reader. Double sharp (talk) 05:09, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I struggled a while, wanting to have fewer total categories, but ultimately came to support Option 10 because it was easy to envision a unified encyclopedia article about each category, whereas the broader categories had so much variation within them that an encyclopedia article would continually have to talk about the more fine-grained categories. Nevertheless, it might be useful to include "s-block", "p-block", "d-block" and "f-block" on the charts somehow, with sufficient explanation somehow to explain why the groups of elements are labeled with the name of electron shells. I know it is pretty obvious to people in the know, but I suspect it isn't that obvious to the average WP reader. Also, in the table footer that explains the different colors, it might be nice to include the number of elements so classified. YBG (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not really a fan of the block terminology for the reason that the elements in many of them (especially the p-block) are chemically very diverse. It is primarily an atomic category rather than a chemical category; most people who look up the periodic table are probably looking for info from a chemical perspective (ask yourself: what class did you first learn it in at school? Odds are it was chemistry, not physics.), so I wouldn't really want to explicitly mark out the blocks in the periodic table template. In periodic table and block (periodic table), we of course should (and indeed we do) discuss it, but I do not think it should be one of our coloured categories or even should be marked in the legend, because it simply doesn't give much info.

About my "informative" point; this is admittedly somewhat weak, but it is basically that the reader gets more info from seeing "transition metal" (because he now knows there is some sort of transition involved) than seeing "d-block metal" (which will usually get one of two reactions, depending on whether or not the reader in question knows what blocks are in the periodic table: (1) "What on Earth is a d-block"? or (2) "I can see they're in the d-block already just by looking at the table, so? What's your point?") Double sharp (talk) 07:31, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, I suppose including the "block" nomenclature in addition what is already there is trying to make the PT include both Chemistry and Physics info, which is probably trying to cram too much info into it. What about including a count of elements in the legend, so you can tell at a glance that there are 6 Alkali metals, 15 Lanthanides, etc. Could that be done without making things too crammed? YBG (talk) 10:12, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Not really a major issue, right? I mean, it's good to know there are 15 lanthanides and 15 actinides (those were pretty much the second-to-last and last pieces of the modern periodic table to fall into place), but who really cares that there are XXX transition metals? It's not a really major thing about them... Double sharp (talk) 11:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

re two off topic posts:

On marking the blocks. For specialised pages like block (periodic table) we could make a PT that uses our standard categrory colors and that impressively outlines a block by a border. That border should have a legend and a link. A bit like:        s-block        -DePiep (talk) 13:57, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

On adding the number of elements to the legend. Can be done, of course. But does that belong there? The legend entry is there first of all to identify the element property we have marked: what is it? Expanding that with info about that identification (info about that category) is not just zooming in too much, but also crossing the line of wich info should or shouldn't be there. We could end up adding the etymology of the word "alkali" too. But actually that information is better in its place on the alkali metal page itself. One click away. Also there is crowdedness. We have reduced the size of the legend to reduce its brick size: small font, remove text: minimalistic to the essence. Still I think it is crowded, especially when we have these three themes to define.

In the future, such information could be in a popup box that appears when hovering over (probably the alkali metal article lead?). Wikicode does not have that for us yet. References do have that already. -DePiep (talk) 13:57, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Yea, you're right. I'm always trying to cram in more and more info. I'll let my off-topic ideas sink into well-deserved obscurity oblivion. YBG (talk) 04:21, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

element 171

@Nergaal, you colour 171 as a metalloid here, I wonder why? (I'm also not very sure about it?) Double sharp (talk) 06:32, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

(yes you can see how desparate I am to have someone convince me or myself convince someone XD) Double sharp (talk) 16:02, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

According to this, unseptunium is a metal, nowhere near the metalloids. Jakob _C2 16:35, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

that site is non-relativistic ⇒ I don't really care what it says since it's wrong Double sharp (talk) 03:58, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Categorisation principles

This post was prompted by Nergaal's request for less categories. It seems to me that the principles by which we categorise the elements are as follows. 1. Start with the basic categories of metals, metalloids, and nonmetals. 2. Subcategorise thereafter to show (a) gradations in metallic character; or (b) other natural distinctions. 3. Aim to achieve an engaging taxonomy, one that is neither excessively fine-grained nor parsimonious.

I think this is why we divide the s-block metals, the inner transition metals, and the non-noble nonmetals into two subcategories apiece. Certainly, before I became an editor, I was captivated by the Misplaced Pages categorisation scheme, having never seen anything quite as engaging, as far as I can recall, in older sources.

Something else occurred to me about the proposed polyatomic and diatomic subcategories. Texts that discuss the properties of the representative elements usually do so on a group by group basis. Invariably they start with the lightest member and then go down the group. And usually in the case of nonmetals the structure of each element is mentioned e.g. diatomic N with its triple bond resulting in superficially low reactivity, and polyatomic P with its highly strained and reactive structure and, if you're lucky, the much more stable and more metallic black allotrope with its curious polyatomic layered structure. So, the diatomic, polyatomic or monatomic structures of nonmetals form a natural part of such discourses which, in hindsight, is quite neat. Sandbh (talk) 12:27, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

archive index

anyone know what happened to it? hasn't been updated since March! Double sharp (talk) 16:55, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Last archive action was July 30. All current threads here are from June/July, so within 45d range (defined 'active'). You can see the archives in the note "Archives for the WikiProject Elements talk page" in this page's top. I see no issue. -DePiep (talk) 19:31, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Not that page; this page: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Elements/Archive index. Double sharp (talk) 07:03, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I see: User talk:Legobot/2013#Indexer task. Though the first days of June have long since passed, so I wouldn't hold my breath to wait for it to start working again. Double sharp (talk) 11:44, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

On what I finally did with the archives

After some indecision, I decided to try to keep as many links working as possible, so the huge metalloids discussion got archived to its own archive (#15). Newly archived entries will go to #14 until it fills, upon which they will skip straight to #16 (provided we don't have yet another huge discussion to necessitate such measures to prevent browser meltdowns at much higher than 320K...). Double sharp (talk) 11:41, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I just set the counter to 16, so next archiving will be there. Keeps threads in time sequence nicely. -DePiep (talk) 08:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Chronology was already completely screwed up with archive 15 starting in mid-2012 and ending in mid-2013 even though it's just one thread. Can see where you're coming from though: let's not make it more screwed up than it already is. But then archive 14 (ends June 2013 for now) already extends past archive 15 stops (May 2013), so not really sure what to do about it. My proposal is thus to just treat #15 as a "special case" that doesn't fit into the chronology for this sort of reason. Feel free to move it outside the usual numbering sequence ("Archive Metalloids"?) if you think that makes it clearer. Double sharp (talk) 08:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes we leave Archive 15 alone. With chronology I mean archive bot chronology: threads are added based on their latest edit timestamp. I only wanted to hack that any future additions are in #16, not #14. -DePiep (talk) 18:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Bonchev and Kamenska newer (1981) ref for predicted properties of Z=113–120!

I finally found one more recent than Fricke and less recent than Haire (who mostly copies from Fricke) :-). You can find it by searching "element 119 melting point" into Google: it's on researchgate.net and should be on around the third page of results. Stay tuned for an infobox update! Double sharp (talk) 05:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Irritatingly it seems to write its error bars as ranges. I have given the full ranges; let me know if you think not doing so would be a better solution. (Also, it gives no boiling point for E115; I'll keep the old one.) Double sharp (talk) 05:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

@DePiep: got any solutions to deal with colliding en dashes and minus signs (e.g. {{Infobox ununoctium}}, {{Infobox flerovium}})? Double sharp (talk) 06:54, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) We see: Melting point −23–−13 C and we are not happy. Background: per MOSNUM, indeed the negatives must be by "unary minus sign" − (never the hyphen) and no space between the minus and the digits. For the range, an ndash without spaces is basic by MOS:NDASH. So the current setup is correct at first. But there is an escape:

Solution per MOS:NDASH: If negative values are involved, an en dash might be confusing. Use words instead: −10 to 10, not −10–10.

I add: "to" is a bit lax about the borders right? If we need to include the borders explicitly (scientifically), we can write (also per MOS) between −10 and 10. -DePiep (talk) 07:53, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes but it is an infobox and we are cramped for space and I don't want to put anything much wider than "to". I suppose we only use it when negative values are involved, right? When one unit goes negative but others do not, there is no need to use "to" for all of them, just for the one that goes negative, right? Double sharp (talk) 08:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I proposed to use them in all (C, F, K) ranges once just one is needed: to the reader's eye a single pattern is more recognisable/readable. The "cramped for space" I find less important, since infoboxes are larger than screen already, and in this melting point case it generally does not add an extra row. -DePiep (talk) 08:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

And we should technically also have a note saying that this means the sharply defined melting point is somewhere in this range, and not that it melts over this entire range!!! (The original sources use the en-dash notation, but then again they only give Kelvin, which doesn't go negative normally.) But do you consider it a real problem? I think it should be OK. Double sharp (talk) 08:39, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Good point. I hope the sources points this out too. As with other notes we talked earlier (isotopes predicted it was?) we need a system for these in-template footnotes. Todo-listed. -DePiep (talk) 08:56, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Yup, it was isotopes predicted half-lives.

No, the sources don't point it out: I'm guessing that that's because they're aimed at an audience which already knows very well that elements all have sharply defined melting and boiling points. Unfortunately, we are not, and so we should explain it to avoid ambiguity. Double sharp (talk) 11:26, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

What I did at E118 may be controversial. My excuse: these guys are predicting, not extrapolating, and in a region like this filled with relativistic effects I'd trust the former much more. Note that they make E118 gaseous, not solid (though still with quite a respectable density! I assume they mean the liquid density there?) Double sharp (talk) 06:59, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

About using colors or grey for "predicted" properties

Note: this subthread is about using "predicted" colors or just grey in our element tables and infoboxes. Separated from the more source related B&K thread above -DePiep (talk) 14:25, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• About the phase font color. We use font color for the phase (Hg is 80). Once an element phase is stable in their prediction (that is, not under discussion here), we should adjust our periodic table templates in this. Now there is used both grey (unknown) and explicit (phase stated) over the templates. We should apply only one rule: either "predicted so grey" or "follow the prediction". We have no separate colors for "gas (predicted)" &tc (I hope noone will propose either). Compare: {{Periodic table}}, {{Periodic_table_(large_version)}}, {{Periodic_table_(extended,_large)}}. -DePiep (talk) 08:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
  • We should make our infoboxes and periodic tables consistent with each other. Now the infoboxes use blue for liquid and green for gas and the tables use green for liquid and red for gas! (I would personally prefer the former, as it's much easier for red-green colour-blind people.) Double sharp (talk) 08:32, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I never ever noticed this! Open a thread #Font color for gases and liquids. Much easier after the option 10 change is through. -DePiep (talk) 09:36, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• • My proposal: follow the prediction in the element articles and infoboxes; predicted so grey otherwise. Because that way you use the prediction in the element article where the predictions are the main topic (you really wouldn't have any content about chemical and physical properties otherwise!), but when it is not the main topic you just grey it out. To logic that out we should also put in (predicted) fill colours in the Mt, Ds, Rg, 113–118 infoboxes but not the compact periodic table template. Double sharp (talk) 08:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
  • It is also possible that I am not being logical, in which case feel free to scold/trout me appropriately. Double sharp (talk) 08:26, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Good angle. That would be: only infoboxes use "gas (predicted)" to set font color explicit, but not PT templates (they use grey font color for all "predicted" phases). Maybe there are some specialised templates and articles too for explicit colors, but I canot think of one now.

In the future, I'd like to make the "large" template cells really large adding more data (like the printed wallpaper PTs have); then there may be space for this detail too. Future. -DePiep (talk) 09:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

We ought to change {{Periodic table (extended, large)}} to Pyykkö (how did we miss that?). Then it would include predicted phases. I suppose we can live with "all phase information for elements beyond element 103, lawrencium (Lr) is predicted" for now. Or you can just use mildly muted blues and greens (I'm sorry, DePiep, but I like this better! It's more in line with what we do for the fill colours, after all...). Double sharp (talk) 09:29, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Change to Pyykkö as you like. That is not related to the legend/classification issues discussed here at all (we might think about a good visual representation for the Pyykkö effect wrt dislodged numbers, in all these Pyykkö pages, but that is a different topic). -DePiep (talk) 10:42, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Muted font colors: ok, proposal then to be developed in #Font color for gases and liquids all right. See there. Added now, in short: phase gas (predicted) can be used now in {{element cell}}'s, and for now produces same font color as "gas". so you can use this in templates; a future switch to a lighter color can happen. -DePiep (talk) 10:42, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Did you change tack in grey/color rule? I thought you meant: only use "gas predicted" where explaned (i.e. in element articles & infobox); otherwise use grey for predicted. Fine. Now you write to do introduce these fontcolors in templates (either mute or dark)? Confused. -DePiep (talk) 10:42, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Only because that is an extended periodic table template, and so would claim it is explained (sort of) by virtue of being extended. For otherwise why do we use the muted fill colours there? Of course we don't do that for the standard non-extended periodic tables. Double sharp (talk) 12:10, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

why do we use the muted fill colours -- that is the original question: to use or not to use them (see even the Bard was pondering this back then -- talking about an old thread!). (Now do we actually use them? In {{Periodic table (extended, large)}} all elements 104+, inluding periods 8 and 9, use the non-predicted colors). Working forward, about consistent use: agree to expand the rule into: "use (predicted) colors, font and bg, 1. in element articles & infoboxes, 2. in extended PTs (also compacts)". (Now that mini-PT we use is to be reconsidered for this). -DePiep (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

About {{NavPeriodicTable}}, the micro one. See its /documentation examples. IMO, it already is fine: greys in group 7 when standard, colored with lights in group 7-8-9 when expanded. Same for the mousehover texts. Isn't this what you described to expect? -DePiep (talk) 14:37, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Implemented this for fill-colours also, so now all element infoboxes have either full or muted (predicted) fill colour (that isn't the Unknown chemical properties colour). Double sharp (talk) 09:29, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

... you propose, I understand. If I am correct, we already can enter "transition metal (predicted) to produce that lighter post-transition color. Same principle than: everywhere, or only where that "predicted" is described (basically in element article and infobox).

Note: please do not squeeze in option 10 outcomes, however reasonable, because they are not decided yet. We better do that in a sweep afterwards with dedicated single-topic edits. -DePiep (talk) 10:42, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

What do you think should be done with the mini-periodic table header in the infobox? That really should be on a case-by-case basis, but would be interested to hear your views (the cases are: "element is only known really from predictions" and "otherwise"). Double sharp (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The mini PT does not have fontcolors. Nothing to change. If you mean to change their bg color (do you?) like into "transition metal (predicted)" from grey, I'm doubting. The 6px cells are very small to show a recognisable subtly different color. Can do in sandbox easily, for starters. As for "case-by-case': bad I say, disturbing (distroying) the visual recognison over the infoboxes.

The micro looks OK already. See some thread above (about coloring extended PTs). -DePiep (talk) 14:37, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

And what do we do for flerovium when the prediction is just "solid or liquid"? That's rather awkward... Double sharp (talk) 09:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Looks like our logic says: undecided, so grey. Its article can have a section about these two predictions. -DePiep (talk) 10:42, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

One can set the legend in mousehover/title text for that cell using |legend=my own text. See {{element cell/doc}}.

One can set the font color for that cell using |style=color:#ab34ef;. However, this font color won't be the legend (so basically a meaningless decoration, unless noted somehow). -DePiep (talk) 09:07, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

@DePiep: But at the very least we should not show the "unknown chemical properties" legend in {{Compact extended periodic table}}, since it is not used and looks way too similar to the predicted post-transition (later read: poor) metal colour. Double sharp (talk) 08:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Done. -DePiep (talk) 09:07, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Same for {{Periodic table (extended, large)}} it is an option switch in the new legend:

• To be more precise about my remark "please don't edit before option 10 is done":

Bad: use (proposed) new category names polyatomic, diatomic nonmetal and poor metal (or their ... (predicted) ones).

Bad: Introduce or even discuss ;-) new colors outside the option 10 ones. E.g. for gas, gas (predicted), also for {{infobox element}} (discussion is postponed)

Good: change some extended PT into a Pyykkö layout

Good in category (position 6 in {{element cell}}s). Change category into a valid name (today other nonmetal, other nonmetal (predicted) are valid!).

Good in phase (position 5 in {{element cell}}s). Change phase into a valid name (today unknown phase, gas, gas (predicted) are valid). So the new options gas (predicted) &tc. can now be used, and do not disturb option 10. Effect: 1. the word "(predicted)" appears nicely in the mousehovertext. However, for now its font color is the same as non-predicted, and that color may change after option 10 is done into stability.

Hope this helps. -DePiep (talk) 08:56, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

@DePiep: We also need solid (predicted) (e.g. for Rf) and liquid (predicted) (e.g. for 119). Double sharp (talk) 09:45, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

These are already there, just as gas: gas (predicted), solid (predicted), liquid (predicted). Can be used in the {{element cell}}-x templates (extended PTs). For now, all three have the same color as their measured phase. -DePiep (talk) 16:43, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

On Fl, I would not mind just making it "solid", as though it is an older prediction, it is at least copied without comment by Haire (2006)... Double sharp (talk) 11:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

It does seem as though these guys are extrapolating from past periods and doing some corrections for relativistic effects. Give me some time to make up my mind on this matter. Double sharp (talk) 11:45, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I won't set anything for Fl, it's just that there are options for a split source opinion. A smart footnote may solve it (in a few templates). -DePiep (talk) 16:43, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's a bit of out-of-the-box thinking for you guys to mull over and adopt/modify/reject as you see fit. For predictions of category and/or predictions of phase, we could use the same non-descript grayish color, but include something like "Liquid (predicted)" or "Metaloid (predicted)" in the mouse-over text. I can readily see this idea has pro's and con's, but I offer it to help get the creative juices rolling. YBG (talk) 06:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure is an option. Technically possible already in {{element cell}}s. (Anyone needs wikicode examples?).

Roundup. Importantly, we want consistency over all templates (PTs). So far, this subthread has stabilised on the following guideline:

• Rule on "(predicted)": The "x (predicted)" names, both for category and phase, are used in articles and tables (PTs), when there is clarification at hand. When used, background color and font color are also explicit (the lighter shade*). Otherwise, "unknown" is used twice. Whichever term is used, each term used is in mousehover and in legend explanation, so either "unknown" or "x (predicted)".

* "phase (predicted)" colors, all three, for now are same as their darker master colors.

That clarification can be in the element article text. So all element infoboxes can have that x (predicted) legend + color. Of course any "prediction" must be sourced. Also, all extended periodic tables imply such clarification (after all, "extended" already is "predicted"). So they appear in articles and tables about Pyykkö and superactinides and periods 8-9-10.

The option YBG notes may be required when sources are split, like in Fl. That could require a singular exception, still used consistently over Fl mentionings.

The option YBG points to could be applied to the greys in period 7, when not an extended PT -- consistenly everywhere then. Personally I think we do not want that nano-information semi-visible in a place where we have decided that it is not important. After all it clarifies something into "unknown (predicted)". -DePiep (talk) 10:41, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

note: Fm, Md, No, Lr should be changed to solid (predicted) (I will do this soon) Double sharp (talk) 05:34, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Double sharp (talk) 12:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Font color for gases and liquids

Post from elsewhere: We should make our infoboxes and periodic tables consistent with each other. Now the infoboxes use blue for liquid and green for gas and the tables use green for liquid and red for gas! (I would personally prefer the former, as it's much easier for red-green colour-blind people.) Double sharp (talk) 08:32, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Good point. We want them to be the same all over. Blue not green gives better contrast with the background, but they are usually near a blue wikilink too. The contrast issues need to be calculated and addressed first, because that is a major issue with the category background colors.

I request to let this rest until after the option 10 change is through (or dropped). First two bg colors will change (new contrast calculations), and second because the infobox header is a bit fixed on the old situation (e.g. "nonmetal" meaning "other nonmetal"; it can be made more flex & smart after the change). Third is that however obvious maybe, I want such a change to the iconic PT view discussed between, not imposed upon, fellow ELEM editors. As said, plenty of time after the 10 change. -DePiep (talk) 09:35, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• Added; (predicted). For now, gas (predicted), liquid (predicted), solid (predicted) are recognised too. So can be used in {{element cell}} &tc. as a "phase" like one uses "liquid" now. Maybe later these prediction colors may differ from their parent color. -DePiep (talk) 10:18, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The words "gas (predicted)" will appear in the cell title (mousehover text) too. -DePiep (talk) 11:43, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• About contrast calculations. Readability of colored text on a colored background depends on the contrast of the colors. Black on white is good, red on red is bad. How about blue on green? W3C has published rules on how to determine this , as part of accessability in general. The two colors should have a minimum contrast ratio.

Now when we choose bg colors and font colors, we should only use color combinations with the right ratio. For example, our dark alkali red background color likely will do bad or fail this test. If we introduce new colors (bg or font), we'd better check for this accessability. It is a straight calculation, but also a bit difficult calculation. We need outside websitesfor this. -DePiep (talk) 10:56, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Some cool UHE predictions

Element 184 should be able to reach +12: . (This article is really quite cool with the details about 164's chemistry. Any free .pdfs online?)

Also, I finally found B. Fricke's first name: it's Burkhard ().

More cool Fricke papers:

For reference: the original two Fricke papers I linked to are at (basics) and (detailed).

Absorption of Cn onto an Au surface: Double sharp (talk) 10:04, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I also read they once tried to make element 184. Maybe an article can be made on this? Jakob _C2 11:05, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

It has (1) synthesis attempts and (2) lots of predictions on chemical properties by various authorities and (3) is a magic number, suggesting an island of stability (which Fricke mentions – changed from 164 to 184). So yes, I would say it is now pretty notable. The only trouble is that it's very problematic to display it without a position in the periodic table, because that totally screws up the elementbox! We do know from Fricke_theoretical_1971 that it is expected to be in an "eka-superactinide" series that starts at 173. Give me a few minutes and I'll start making yet another fake template for you. Double sharp (talk) 11:33, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Fake template made:

But I would advise you to wait until the whole option 10 edit-frenzies are over and the new scheme is settled in, to avoid causing havoc!

(BTW, unhexquadium (Z=164) may also be notable this way. In fact it seems that it could be possible to create some more of those elements. We could have 119, 120, 121, 122, 124, 126, 127, general superactinide article (121–155), 154–172, 184. Nevertheless (1) let's not do it now and (2) some of these are borderline, especially 154–163 and 167–170; but it's not nice to have gaps. 123 and 125 really don't have ANYTHING at all interesting, but these have one or two pieces of stuff. I may be more lenient towards them; after all, they have 1 piece of interesting info rather than 0.)

You know what, we could try this scheme. Then I might reconsider on 123 and 125 and 128 just to have an unbroken initial series. 129–153 can then be redirected to superactinide. Interesting tidbits exist for 132 and 144, but that's all they are. Then 154–172 would have their own articles, 173–183 would redirect to eka-superactinide (possibly a section of superactinide), 184 would have its own article, and the redirect-here superactinide article would have a note about the absence of predictions for elements 185 and above.

Now I think the notability criterion for UHEs should be "Can you fill up at least two nontrivial non-electron-configuration infobox entries?" What about e-conf? Should that count? And should we make it one? That way we again have all articles exist until 172 (and also 184), but at least it's reliable and correct info there. (E-conf is admittedly nontrivial.) Double sharp (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

• Above, near the end of this thread, I have noted that certain edits are OK even before option 10 . -DePiep (talk) 09:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• OK. Could you help me insert 173–184 in the way shown above into the real template? (use the old eka-superactinides colour; the term is OR-y but we don't have anything else better). Double sharp (talk) 09:34, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Yep. Working in {{Compact extended periodic table/sandbox}} now. Will be back here with questions. -DePiep (talk) 09:57, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

See the sandbox. Steps are noted in the es. Notes: check my 117 and 171 of course (mousehover 117!). What I wrote about 50/50 Frevolium today: we can construct color and mousehover text, but that is not catched in the changeover. I used {{element cell}} where possible. eka-superactinide color is our legend color & name indeed, and we will not change that before option 10.

If you think it is OK now, you can put the sandbox into live, asap! Tweaking 117 and 171 can still be done afterwards. When option 10 arrives, we'll have to visit all these templates and check for the words.

Suggestion: if you want to sort 117 and 171 out before option 10 (good reason you have), just ask Sandbh to pause the option 10 closure. We don't want to be time-pressed. -DePiep (talk) 10:41, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Two questions: (1) Astatine is also a halogen/metalloid (more of the latter really), yet we mark it as halogen (as long as we still use that category) because otherwise it gives the mistaken impression that halogen and group 17 are two different things (OK, colloquially in science they are different, but officially IUPAC sez they are the same thing, which is another reason I'm in favour of getting rid of it) and that At is not a halogen (which it is). 117 has the same situation, so I made it halogen (along with At). You saw my edit to the infobox, didn't you? It's really more of a metalloid, but I can't really call it just that until option 10 finally comes and we kill off the halogen category.

(2) You have a double-asterisk with no corresponding reference to it just before 173. (And technically placing it on a PT like this is very strictly speaking OR because the sources just describe it without giving a figure!) This is why I included a blank period 10 with a ** just under the * in period 8: these are period 10 elements (Fricke states that period 9 ends at 172). As it stands, they're not shown to be in any period. Doubtless things would be less confusing if the predictions had gone further! Double sharp (talk) 10:56, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

edit: rëadded period 10. Double sharp (talk) 10:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh BTW, thanks for figuring out how to make it clear that 121++ and 173++ are probably not homologues of each other without ending up with a gigantic whitespace of doom between them. :-) Double sharp (talk) 10:59, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit as you like, it's yours. I completely forgot that I was copying category names from new style (here) to old style (the sandbox/live), so I broke the logic. Unless it's table technical, I cannot do much more I guess. Do the lower rows need to be repositioned?

Again, if you think it is OK in old style (adding 173++), put it into live I'd say. From then, we can edit the sandbox into the new category scheme, which is perfectly good practice. -DePiep (talk) 11:14, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

No, it's fine. We can bring it to live. :-) Double sharp (talk) 11:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

...and  Done. Double sharp (talk) 11:23, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• {{NavPeriodicTable/sandbox}} (when extended), you expect 173++ there too?
  • Yes. Double sharp (talk) 14:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I am preparing this one for option 10. Group 17 will be colored as in the PT here I assume. -DePiep (talk) 14:04, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Double sharp (talk) 14:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment (not about the science): (1) we should have a different label for 173++, maybe a double dot instead of a single one; (2) we should have some space between the superactinides and eka-superactinides as they may not be precisely homologous to each other. Double sharp (talk) 15:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Pls take a look at the sandbox. If you Okay, I can easily put the 173++ row into live right now, leaving behind the option 10 changes for later.

double dot: as it is now in the sandbox, can we do without? If a marker is needed I also might try something else (cross or triangle).

The micro PT links to the element page like Unsepttrium. For the 12 eka's, they Redirect to 2 pages (IUPAC sys name or Ext PT). We could also change all names into Superactinide (they are used for the link & mousehover only), but that would delete the systematic name completely. -DePiep (talk) 16:21, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• {{Periodic table (Pyykkö model, large)/sandbox}} is candidate too. -DePiep (talk) 14:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

This one could go live now (it is all old style). My linking & naming might need a check though. You can edit & put it live as you please. -DePiep (talk) 16:25, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

looks good. still feel it may need a clue that these are period 10 but would not insist. Double sharp (talk) 13:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Well it says "10" in the leftmost column. I do not get which information you want to add. Do you mean adding asterisks or so? Where to whould that point? With lanthanides we usually point to a place in the table, and elsewhere they point to a footnote. As for positioning of the row: I added half a column to break the vertical group suggestion, and a white row to separate. Anything more? -DePiep (talk) 14:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

oops, sorry, wrong place. i'm talking about the navperiodictable one. Double sharp (talk) 14:37, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, NavPeriodicTable then. There none period has a number. You want it moved close under period 9, the breakout superacts below? An other horizontal position? I'm afraid we cannot put in more information or any footnotes. Once in the extended PT, the reader should be willing to find some unexplained details. -DePiep (talk) 18:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

The large Pyykkö table now is live with period 10. I also made some layout refinements. -DePiep (talk) 22:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

would it be possible to have the two-dot marker just under the period 8 one-dot marker? basically like the compact one, except the period x labels are gone, just the asterisks are there, Double sharp (talk) 16:00, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

{{Compact extended periodic table}}, I see. What to do with "121++ and 173++ are probably not homologues of each other" (as you wrote above)? I did the horizontal shift (half a cell), to break visual column suggestion. The compact one might be too small for such a subtlety. (btw, in template space I had a horizontal browser slider to scroll the width -- gone now. Article page is OK. Can you scroll this wide template?)-DePiep (talk) 08:11, 11 August 2013 (UTC) Struck. I am confused, will rephrase my question. -DePiep (talk) 08:35, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Back to square 1. About presenting 173++ in extended PTs.

We have three PTs showing extended rows (not counting the block-colored PTs like {{this one}}):

{{NavPeriodicTable/sandbox}} (micro)

{{Compact extended periodic table}} (compact)

{{Periodic table (Pyykkö model, large)}} (Pyykkö large)

Do I understand: 1. the Pyykkö large is OK now, and 2. you prefer the micro to be like compact one (row sorting and using a double asterisk/dot in there?

Another change could be: in the compact one, shift the 173++ row half a cell to stress that "121++ and 173++ are probably not homologues of each other" (as you wrote above)? This subtlety is not possible in the micro PT. -DePiep (talk) 08:48, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Would be like {{NavPeriodicTable/sandbox}} (micro). Also check whitespaces (hor, vert) please. DePiep (talk) 09:47, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

yes, the navperiodictable should be like that.

also yes, feel free to unalign 121++ and 173++ in the compact extended PT. Double sharp (talk) 12:47, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

@DePiep: Actually, please, please, do it now (I do not know how). People are already adding their own personal uncited speculations . Double sharp (talk) 12:14, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done the micro navbox and the compact one. Finally I got it. I understand this issue is finished for these three templates. -DePiep (talk) 18:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I dunno what's the reason

but those extended large PTs seem to be attracting a lot of nonsense edits from IPs who have no sources and yet want to impose their personal (probably wrong FYI) predictions on WP. I dunno, what's the reason? Romance of being an explorer of unexplored PT territory? Double sharp (talk) 11:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The last sentence, minus the question mark, would be a great name for a blog, or somesuch :) Sandbh (talk) 02:39, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

LOL! Thanks. Double sharp (talk) 14:38, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done

Infobox colors for 113-118

They are colored now with the (predicted) colors. Used not to be. Why was the change done? After all, everything about 117's chem (and, likewise, others' except 114) is speculation. For 119+, it's okay, since the very existence of them is speculation (we haven't observed, but suppose they should be able to exist and demonstrate the said properties). But for 113-118, we keep the observed-elements-only PT and color them as (unknown chem properties) therein. No speculation in those articles, since we've observed them. Why do the infoboxes stand out?--R8R Gtrs (talk) 23:55, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

First of all, I'd like to take the blame for doing it. :-)

Second of all (I notice you don't complain for Mt–Rg, I think it's because the speculation is not too surprising, right? :-P), we do have chemical speculation in the articles. In the main PT, we don't use predicted colours, because we are not discussing the predicted properties of superheavy elements in detail. Yet in those articles, we are discussing precisely that, and I figured that if the phase colour shows in the infobox, then so should the background colour. For Mt-Rg and 113-118, it's more of "we have observed, we know they exist, we don't know if they demonstrate said properties but they should". So, yeah, that was basically what was running through my mind when I did it. Feel free to revert and discuss. Double sharp (talk) 03:27, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

I simply forgot about the three :) Everything's valid for them as well.

Here, I see how to justify what I feel: When we talk about a speculation, we treat it as such. And we can't treat a color as a speculation. Sure, it's lighter, but I don't normally see the difference unless I'm pointed out.

Besides, at least three elements tricky to color: 114 (p metal/noble gas), 117 (halogen/metalloid), 118 (noble gas/whatever else).

since you don't mind, I'll undo for now. I'm open to further discussion.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 22:30, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Why do we use weird names like "unbiseptium"?

Since we don't use those symbols in the extended PT anymore, it seems reasonable that the same should be implemented for element infoboxes.

Instead

  Os
  ↑
  Hs
  ↓
(Uhn)

we get this:

  Os
  ↑
  Hs
  ↓
(160)

(with or without parentheses)

Anyone against the idea?

Also, why do we use those IUPAC names in first place? It seems they are used only by IUPAC and non-expert fans. Not to mention "unbiseptium" and "element 127" mean the same things, that is, element 127. The former just pretends to be fancy and to find out the number behind the name, you need to know a key (un=1, etc), and even if you know it, you still have to take to a second first to decipher it. Which is why the latter is used among those who work with them, and (not always, but often) the news.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 23:02, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

How did you get more drunk than I am?

You mean to say we get rid of IUPAC names? (I get the examples are from the Hs infobox).

1. weird names like "unbiseptium": unbiseptium is not a weird name. It is the IUPAC systematic element name.
2. Since we don't use those symbols in the extended PT anymore. Que? No 'Ubs' any more? Since when? Enjoy our current best and greatest: {{Periodic table (Pyykkö model, large)‎}}.
3. Please study the diff between 'symbol' and 'Z'. I had to.
4. But ah, there is this one point you can win: what do these (...) brackets mean, so unexplained?

Other current topics, today,are visible in: {{NavPeriodicTable/sandbox}}. -DePiep (talk) 01:13, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Now back to my 1st question please. I could use something ;-). -DePiep (talk) 01:13, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

What I intend to say was, even if they're IUPAC systematic element names, they're still weird. Re symbols, I meant the three letters symbols formed from those names, twist of the tongue has always been my worst curse. Re we switched from them, I meant the compact extended PT (see ununennium, for example, in the bottom of the page).

Uhn is the symbol for "unhexnilium," element 160, the element directly under hassium in the PT as expected from complicated relativistic computations. 160 is the proposed symbol. Parentheses show it is expected to be there, but we haven't synthesized it, so we don't know for sure yet. Yes, this is from the Hs infobox.

P.S. I've been to a museum today ;)--R8R Gtrs (talk) 01:46, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree with R8R...(113) or just 113 is really the symbol you will usually find in science, not Uut: e.g. (113)F
₆ and not UutF
₆. Change it. And you will have plenty of sources agreeing (off the top of my head: Haire, Fricke, Pyykkö). The symbol only becomes usual once you have a permanent name like flerovium or livermorium.

Do you intend to change the article titles too for complete consistency? (e.g. Ununtrium → Element 113). Can see justification for that too. The systematic name may be official, but in practice nobody really uses it. Quite different from aluminium spelling etc. when people do listen to IUPAC. I would support this, personally. Double sharp (talk) 06:36, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd love to change the titles.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 13:46, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

This would imply (if I understand it well), we use "element 119" as a name every where, and "119" as its symbol

Move page Ununennium to Element 119

All other pages like Template:Infobox ununennium, isotopes of ununennium, etc.

In Infobox Ununennium, {|name=element 119 (lowercase) and |symbol=119

Basically the systematic name & symbol are not used any more here. Maybe a minor mentioning in the lead.

-DePiep (talk) 15:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes. But we have to wait, for maybe a week to see if opposition arises.--R8R Gtrs (talk) 16:03, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Just trying to get a grip on the consequences. For templates (automatic text manipulation) I hope there never will remain a diff between page name and element name! (Mercury (element) vs mercury is bad enough). I've made made a change to the infobox: |systematic name= and |systematic symbol=. See {{Infobox ununoctium/sandbox}}. -DePiep (talk) 17:37, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

While this may be reasonable do not under any circumstances eliminate all mention of the systemic names or symbols, especially on periodic tables (where they are highly standardised) Adam Cuerden 18:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Why?--R8R Gtrs (talk) 18:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Project-Class chemical elements pages
• NA-importance chemical elements pages
• WikiProject Elements articles