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Revision as of 13:56, 14 August 2013 editBus stop (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers44,012 edits →Whaam!← Previous edit Revision as of 14:01, 14 August 2013 edit undoBinksternet (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers494,034 edits disagreeNext edit →
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:::*FWIW at the time Lichtenstein painted and exhibited Whaam! Pop art was still in its infancy; the movement was in the process of becoming a movement; the artworld in the early 60s was in a state of transition as abstract expressionism and realism was on the wane and color field painting, geometric abstraction, minimal art, and pop art were beginning to attract more and more artists. In my opinion we don't really need to include any of this as context and I prefer the focus being on Lichtenstein's history...] (]) 12:13, 14 August 2013 (UTC) :::*FWIW at the time Lichtenstein painted and exhibited Whaam! Pop art was still in its infancy; the movement was in the process of becoming a movement; the artworld in the early 60s was in a state of transition as abstract expressionism and realism was on the wane and color field painting, geometric abstraction, minimal art, and pop art were beginning to attract more and more artists. In my opinion we don't really need to include any of this as context and I prefer the focus being on Lichtenstein's history...] (]) 12:13, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
::::* See, there you go, stating pop art was at its infancy. That's ''good'' to add, that gives the reader the idea this was early in the period. The problem with it now is that the focus on Litchenstein's past is that we have a whole article dedicated to him, so if someone really needs to know the detailed bio, they can go there, as it is out of context for the painting. There ''are'' elements of his bio that are needed here, that he's ex-military, that he never had a love of comic books but saw them as a challenge, and a few other things, but not as much as there is now. --] (]) 12:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC) ::::* See, there you go, stating pop art was at its infancy. That's ''good'' to add, that gives the reader the idea this was early in the period. The problem with it now is that the focus on Litchenstein's past is that we have a whole article dedicated to him, so if someone really needs to know the detailed bio, they can go there, as it is out of context for the painting. There ''are'' elements of his bio that are needed here, that he's ex-military, that he never had a love of comic books but saw them as a challenge, and a few other things, but not as much as there is now. --] (]) 12:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
:::::*I disagree. I think good context for ''Whaam!'' should include what Lichtenstein had been doing, and what the art world had been up to, and how comics were viewed. ] (]) 14:01, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


::::::Masem is raising a good point but responding to it in our article would hinge upon the availability of sources addressing the question of how Lichtenstein's employment of imagery closely related to comic books fits into the pop artists' more general employment of a wider variety of images culled from what is commonly referred to as "popular culture". Masem says ''"This still leaves me with the "Background" section that needs improvement, as I find it too disjointed towards guiding the reader to understand why Litchenstein went to create this. It currently is focused too much on Litchenstein's past (Which should be in Litchenstein's article) and little on the pop art movement at the time. It should flow from the pop art state to Litchenstein's work to Whaam. This is easily fixed though I don't feel I have the knowledge to be able to do it justice."'' I don't think anyone has ''"the knowledge"''. Unless you find a source assigning significance to Lichtenstein's embrace of the comic book form seen in for instance the ] painting, the ] painting, and others, I think there is no way to fit Lichtenstein's choice of imagery in such paintings, into the more general category of images relating to "popular culture". Lichtenstein, in other paintings, certainly does avail himself of other types of images aside from those relating to comic books. I did find one comment in a source which I think slightly sheds light on the distinction that his comic-book-related images have which sets them apart from pop art imagery generally. In article in ], Alastair Smart says the following: ''"It’s his narrative scenes, though, for which Lichtenstein is best known: inspired not by the Bible or classical myth, but by comic books. In 1963’s diptych Whaam! – reworked from an American war comic and enlarged to mimic a huge Ab Ex canvas – a fighter pilot blasts an enemy into flaming oblivion."'' I think that in that comment Alastair Smart is distinguishing between the comic-book-related paintings that Lichtenstein has made, and just about all other works of pop art produced either by Lichtenstein or any other pop artist. Rather than try to paraphrase what Alastair Smart says I think we should just place his quote into our article: ''"It’s his narrative scenes, though, for which Lichtenstein is best known: inspired not by the Bible or classical myth, but by comic books. In 1963’s diptych Whaam! – reworked from an American war comic and enlarged to mimic a huge Ab Ex canvas – a fighter pilot blasts an enemy into flaming oblivion."'' ] (]) 13:56, 14 August 2013 (UTC) ::::::Masem is raising a good point but responding to it in our article would hinge upon the availability of sources addressing the question of how Lichtenstein's employment of imagery closely related to comic books fits into the pop artists' more general employment of a wider variety of images culled from what is commonly referred to as "popular culture". Masem says ''"This still leaves me with the "Background" section that needs improvement, as I find it too disjointed towards guiding the reader to understand why Litchenstein went to create this. It currently is focused too much on Litchenstein's past (Which should be in Litchenstein's article) and little on the pop art movement at the time. It should flow from the pop art state to Litchenstein's work to Whaam. This is easily fixed though I don't feel I have the knowledge to be able to do it justice."'' I don't think anyone has ''"the knowledge"''. Unless you find a source assigning significance to Lichtenstein's embrace of the comic book form seen in for instance the ] painting, the ] painting, and others, I think there is no way to fit Lichtenstein's choice of imagery in such paintings, into the more general category of images relating to "popular culture". Lichtenstein, in other paintings, certainly does avail himself of other types of images aside from those relating to comic books. I did find one comment in a source which I think slightly sheds light on the distinction that his comic-book-related images have which sets them apart from pop art imagery generally. In article in ], Alastair Smart says the following: ''"It’s his narrative scenes, though, for which Lichtenstein is best known: inspired not by the Bible or classical myth, but by comic books. In 1963’s diptych Whaam! – reworked from an American war comic and enlarged to mimic a huge Ab Ex canvas – a fighter pilot blasts an enemy into flaming oblivion."'' I think that in that comment Alastair Smart is distinguishing between the comic-book-related paintings that Lichtenstein has made, and just about all other works of pop art produced either by Lichtenstein or any other pop artist. Rather than try to paraphrase what Alastair Smart says I think we should just place his quote into our article: ''"It’s his narrative scenes, though, for which Lichtenstein is best known: inspired not by the Bible or classical myth, but by comic books. In 1963’s diptych Whaam! – reworked from an American war comic and enlarged to mimic a huge Ab Ex canvas – a fighter pilot blasts an enemy into flaming oblivion."'' ] (]) 13:56, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:01, 14 August 2013

Whaam!

Whaam! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 17:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Reiterating the opening paragraph from Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Whaam!/archive1 (henceforth FAC1): I am nominating this for featured article because this is a highly important work of art that has a September 28, 2013 50th anniversary of its first exhibition. Over the last few years Roy Lichtenstein's modestly notable works have been selling in the $42–56 million dollar range. This is his single most important/famous work. At an absolute minimum it would sell for $70 million but could sell for two or three times that. If it were to ever be sold it would surely land on the List of most expensive paintings. It is one of if not the very most valuable military art painting in the world.

FAC1 was a very controversial nomination with 221,314 bytes plus 132,512 bytes archived to the talk page for a total of 353,826 bytes of content (call it 354KB) after 4 weeks. It had 2 supports (Curly Turkey and Binksternet) and 2 opposes (Modernist and John). John's oppose was on a 2-week-old version of the article. Modernist had wavered between oppose and support in the discussion and his oppose was an hour and a half old when the discussion closed. However, the reason for his most recent opposition stance had been reverted. At closure, several active discussants were undecided (Bus stop, Masem and Ewulp). Other undecided discussants with notable contributions to the discussion were Hiding and to a lesser extent Theramin who was an active editor of the article. Mr Stephen also made several edits to the article during its prior candidacy, but did not engage in the discussion. At one point, GrahamColm moved 97,268 bytes of Bus stop's comments (and responses by others) to the FAC1 talk page with the edit summary "I see this as peripheral to FAC criteria". Other discussants noted Bus stop's tireless and tiresome discussion style. Curly Turkey described it at various times as a filibuster and treadmilling. Masem, the most neutral of discussants on several issues, stated "Bus Stop's complaints are trivial and nuanced at best"

The prior discussion was contentious because WP:COMICS discussants (Curly Turkey and Hiding) wanted more detailed explanation of topics that WP:WPVA discussants (Bus stop and Modernist) felt were out of scope for this article. More specifically, COMICS folks have lots of negative commentary against Lichtenstein and this work is considered the prime example of their general arguments. The issue is how much of that criticism actually belongs in this article. For WPVA I have 6 (3 paintings and 3 sculptures) of the 56 FA-Class visual arts articles and 25 of the 112 GA-Class visual arts articles including my first GA and first FA, Campbell's Soup Cans. However, many of these crossed over into COMICS since June 2012 and I now have 2 of the 31 FA-Class Comics articles and 8 of the 159 GA-Class Comics articles. I have attempted to both be impartial and use my longstanding relationships with WPVA members to move the discussion forward. Due to the possibility of a 50th anniversary TFA and the unusual nature of the 354KB controversial nomination, a delegate has granted permission for a relisting after only 48 hours. Hopefully, four weeks from now we have reached a resolution of this discussion rather than accumulated 100s of KB of more contentious debate.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 17:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Support. My concerns were addressed at the first FAC, that the comics aspect should be given proper weight, naming the writers/editors/artists of the comic book which inspired Lichtenstein. My support is contingent on this material remaining in the article. If someone were to argue successfully that very little about comics was to be in the article then I would oppose the FAC. Binksternet (talk) 19:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Weak weak oppose Most of what I had issue with was dealt with in the first FAC (in removing much about the appropriation aspects to other articles, keeping this focused on Whaam!) This still leaves me with the "Background" section that needs improvement, as I find it too disjointed towards guiding the reader to understand why Litchenstein went to create this. It currently is focused too much on Litchenstein's past (Which should be in Litchenstein's article) and little on the pop art movement at the time. It should flow from the pop art state to Litchenstein's work to Whaam. This is easily fixed though I don't feel I have the knowledge to be able to do it justice. It's a simple barrier to get over. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
    • I am not sure how to respond to this concern. The section now has 4 paragraphs. The first explains that he had a military background that included pilot training. The second says that he transitioned into comics-based works. Paragraph three says that this was unusual subject matter, but Lichtenstein enjoyed it. Paragraph four discusses the themes of Lichtenstein's work at the time and their relation to this image. Where would you like to see pop art added?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 20:09, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Also, I am not sure what is requested. Are you requesting content similar to the first half of Roy_Lichtenstein#Rise_to_prominence?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 20:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
      • It should be less a bio about Litchenstein, and more about the pop art movement at the time when Whaam was conceived and created, which likely includes Litchenstein's contribution. Yes, the fact he was in the military and that he transitioned to comic book works is important, but we don't need as much details about him here, and are lacking details about the art world at the time. --MASEM (t) 21:27, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
  • FWIW at the time Lichtenstein painted and exhibited Whaam! Pop art was still in its infancy; the movement was in the process of becoming a movement; the artworld in the early 60s was in a state of transition as abstract expressionism and realism was on the wane and color field painting, geometric abstraction, minimal art, and pop art were beginning to attract more and more artists. In my opinion we don't really need to include any of this as context and I prefer the focus being on Lichtenstein's history...Modernist (talk) 12:13, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
  • See, there you go, stating pop art was at its infancy. That's good to add, that gives the reader the idea this was early in the period. The problem with it now is that the focus on Litchenstein's past is that we have a whole article dedicated to him, so if someone really needs to know the detailed bio, they can go there, as it is out of context for the painting. There are elements of his bio that are needed here, that he's ex-military, that he never had a love of comic books but saw them as a challenge, and a few other things, but not as much as there is now. --MASEM (t) 12:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Masem is raising a good point but responding to it in our article would hinge upon the availability of sources addressing the question of how Lichtenstein's employment of imagery closely related to comic books fits into the pop artists' more general employment of a wider variety of images culled from what is commonly referred to as "popular culture". Masem says "This still leaves me with the "Background" section that needs improvement, as I find it too disjointed towards guiding the reader to understand why Litchenstein went to create this. It currently is focused too much on Litchenstein's past (Which should be in Litchenstein's article) and little on the pop art movement at the time. It should flow from the pop art state to Litchenstein's work to Whaam. This is easily fixed though I don't feel I have the knowledge to be able to do it justice." I don't think anyone has "the knowledge". Unless you find a source assigning significance to Lichtenstein's embrace of the comic book form seen in for instance the Whaam! painting, the Drowning Girl painting, and others, I think there is no way to fit Lichtenstein's choice of imagery in such paintings, into the more general category of images relating to "popular culture". Lichtenstein, in other paintings, certainly does avail himself of other types of images aside from those relating to comic books. I did find one comment in a source which I think slightly sheds light on the distinction that his comic-book-related images have which sets them apart from pop art imagery generally. In this article in The Telegraph, Alastair Smart says the following: "It’s his narrative scenes, though, for which Lichtenstein is best known: inspired not by the Bible or classical myth, but by comic books. In 1963’s diptych Whaam! – reworked from an American war comic and enlarged to mimic a huge Ab Ex canvas – a fighter pilot blasts an enemy into flaming oblivion." I think that in that comment Alastair Smart is distinguishing between the comic-book-related paintings that Lichtenstein has made, and just about all other works of pop art produced either by Lichtenstein or any other pop artist. Rather than try to paraphrase what Alastair Smart says I think we should just place his quote into our article: "It’s his narrative scenes, though, for which Lichtenstein is best known: inspired not by the Bible or classical myth, but by comic books. In 1963’s diptych Whaam! – reworked from an American war comic and enlarged to mimic a huge Ab Ex canvas – a fighter pilot blasts an enemy into flaming oblivion." Bus stop (talk) 13:56, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Images

At FAC1, there was last-minute controversy around the images. GermanJoe, had approved all the images except for File:Drawing for Whaam!.jpg. After I removed the image, Modernist opposed because he felt that the image review suggested that more content was needed related to the image rather than the image be removed. I have since added content related to the image. GermanJoe, suggested that I now request Masem's opinion on the images based on his intimacy with the topic.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 20:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Squeamish Ossifrage

Prose:

  • In Description: "One of Lichtenstein's series of war images, it combines "brilliant color and narrative situation"." Do we need to use a direct quote for this sort of observation, which doesn't appear to require much in the way of analysis. If so, shouldn't it be attributed in the text?
  • "These dots, which were invented by Benjamin Day to "recreate gradations of shading", were considered Lichtenstein's "signature method"." Dots are not a method, but perhaps their use is?
  • The image caption "Whaam!'s text balloon was likely written by Robert Kanigher." can be interpreted to imply that Kanigher actually did the lettering in Lichtenstein's work. Is there a better way to word this? Perhaps calling Kaniger "likely the original author" of the text or something along those lines?
  • In Reception: "According to Douglas Coupland, the World Book Encyclopedia had pictures of Warhol's Monroes and Whaam! in the Pop art entry for illustration." Do we need to cite someone citing the illustrations in an encyclopedia entry? Can't we just reference the encyclopedia, since there's no interpretation required to judge what images illustrate the article?
    • I don't have the World Book Encyclopedia from Mr. Coupland's youth. Mr. Coupland is not the author of the text. Thus, I am not sure what alternate presentation of this content would be accurate. Would you like me to just remove the "According to Douglas Coupland" bit?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 04:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "One view is that...". Whose view?
  • "It has been observed that the "simplicity and outdatedness were ripe for being mocked"." This is cited to a Paul Gravett source; are those his words? There's no direct attribution of the quote, and "It has been observed" is a weak construction in general. I've actually noted several of these, and I'm going to stop doing so at this point; in general, I'm not extremely fond of direct quotes that don't identify the speaker, doubly so if it seems that we could get the point across without directly quoting.
  • In general, the Reception section seems to wander a bit, with several short paragraphs that don't flow together in a particularly recognizable manner. I'm not even sure all of this is strictly under the right heading. The bit from Bradford Collins (and a few other parts, bit that especially) feels more like analysis than reception, and it's not immediately evident why his opinion matters to begin with (he's not wikilinked, and the claim seems ... odd to me, as an outside reader).

Images:

Reference formatting:

  • You do not use a consistent format for the display of secondary authors. "Horace Clifford Westermann" in Note 2 versus "Boswell, John" in Note 41. There are multiple examples of each, so I'm not sure what standard is 'right' here.
  • Sometimes you wikilink publishers, sometimes not. I can't discern any criteria that determines whether you do or not, which means it probably needs looked at.
  • All of your notes citing Waldman specify "War Comics, 1962–64"; is there a reason you cite this (chapter, presumably) in the notes, but not in the reference since you don't use anything else from that source?
  • You have three notes pointing to the Bader reference. Notes 25 and 29 fully cite the book, while Note 49 uses an abbreviated format due to the work being included in the references below.
  • From Note 44: "(2013-05-13 (Spring 2013))". Since we have a specific publication date, is the season necessary? Basically, I'm looking for a way to avoid nesting parentheses like that.
  • Note 53, should circa be abbreviated?
  • Note 54: is the 3rd edition revising author relevant to the 4th edition? I don't know how the book lists the authorship, so maybe. In any case, there's a comma in Prather's parenthetical note, but not in Wheeler's. Regardless, edition should probably be abbreviated, as it is in the other edition notes. And at least some databases seem to use commas in the title instead of bullets; cover design notwithstanding, is the book officially titled with bullets?
  • In Note 58, I assume the indication that Evans is the editor is merely improperly formatted, rather than the book being authored by a "Mike Ed Evans".
  • Most periodical sources have their titles linked, but there are some that aren't, such as The Times in Note 66 and The Burlington Magazine in 67. Frankly, Note 66 doesn't seem to match the reference format used elsewhere at all, including date formatting. Perhaps there's some template use differences here? I didn't look at the markup.
  • The Coplans reference is lacking an ISBN, which I believe to be 978-0713907612.

Other:

Leaning oppose at the moment, primarily due to my concerns over the Reception section's overall structure and the use of direct quotes without naming their speakers, but I'm confident the shortcomings can be remedied within the FAC period. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:45, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Curly Turkey

  • "The borrowed technique was "representing tonal variations with patterns of colored circles that imitated the half-tone screens of Ben Day dots used in newspaper printing, and surrounding these with black outlines similar to those used to conceal imperfections in cheap newsprint." Rebecca Bengal at PBS wrote that this is similar to the ligne claire style associated with Hergé."—The "this" in the second sentence seems to imply things int he first sentence not associated with the ligne clair style. For one thing, the style was an aesthetic choice, as the printing quality of Tintin was far higher than that of American comics—it was not printed on "cheap newsprint" (except in its original serilizations, in which case it was in black-and-white, and thus had no Ben Day dots). This appears to be a case of WP:SYNTHESIS. I also still think the Hergé is out-of-scope and quite probably anachronistic.
  • The more I read Priego's article, the more relevant I think it is to the article, particularly how he distinguishes the contexts of comics and fine art. He talks of how the original panel is a part of the composition of the whole page (or multicadre in French theories), and talks of the emphasis fine art puts on the image-as-icon in contrast to comics emphasis on image-as-narrative. I think some talk of this can clarify for the reader how and why this painting is not comics, and shine light on how Lichtenstein transformed the image aside from mere "appropriation" (and why comics folk such as Gibbons don't see any kind of "improvement"). Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "The use of these dots, which were invented by Benjamin Day to "recreate gradations of shading", was considered Lichtenstein's "signature method".—It's really not surprising that a system called "Ben Day" would be invented by a guy named Ben Day. there really is no compelling reason to state it. And why is "recreate gradations of shading" in quotes?
  • "training programs for languages, engineering, and pilot training" A training program for pilot training? My grandfather did exactly that, but somehow I doubt that's what you intended to say.
  • "According to the Tate, Lichtenstein claimed that "this was his first visualisation of Whaam! and that it was executed just before he started the painting."" Is this Lichtenstein speaking? Referring to himself in the third person?
  • "two equal sizes of paper"—"equally-sized"? "two sheets of paper of equal size"? Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Bus stop

Scope at one particular paragraph:

The paragraph beginning with the words "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's perceived improprieties…" which is found in the Reception section of the article is problematic. There is actually only one notable individual raising concerns over the similarity between the imagery that is in the painting Whaam! and the imagery that is found in that painting's comic book sources. That person is Dave Gibbons and his comments can be found here and here. I completely endorse that Dave Gibbons' comments and point of view should be in this article. Yet the name Dave Gibbons does not even appear in the paragraph that I am referencing. That paragraph, problematically, speaks in general terms about unspecified paintings and unspecified comic book imagery. Dave Gibbons, by contrast, speaks specifically about the relationship between the painting Whaam!, which is the subject of this article, and a specific comic book image created by a comic book artist named Irv Novick. This is precisely the sort of commentary that should be in the paragraph to which I am referring and yet it is absent. Instead there is general commentary about unspecified paintings by Lichtenstein and their unspecified comic book counterparts. I feel that all material in this paragraph should relate specifically to the painting Whaam!. This article is not the same as a more general article such as the Roy Lichtenstein article or the Appropriation (art) article. Those kinds of articles have scopes that make them appropriate for discussions of Lichtenstein's imagery generally and its relationship to its source material such as comics. A more full treatment is possible in an article such as the "Roy Lichtenstein" article or the "Appropriation" article and therefore I think there would be a greater likelihood of achieving a neutral point of view in such an article. I think this article should be kept free of general commentary on Lichtenstein's paintings and their relation to source imagery as found for instance in comic books. There are several commentators from the art world who feel that the paintings by Lichtenstein bear little visual similarity to the comics to which they relate. These commentators point this out and explain in concrete terms why they believe this to be the case. Bus stop (talk) 04:00, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Inclined to oppose

The organisation of information is a little all-over-the-place, a problem arising from large and unwieldy sections. Either create more sections or sub-section the existing ones. Then you need rearrange stuff logically for better flow and less redundancy. Take the last para of History: it begins with the 1966 Tate purchase (info that is repeated in Reception), moves to Drawing, jumps to its 2006 acquisition, a 2012-13 retrospective (which is mentioned again, twice, in Reception), before returning to a justification for what happened in 1966.

Reception is also highly disorganised: I suggest going about it chronologically. Start with 1960s reception, and then come to the present (maybe in another, Legacy?, section). The section is also a confusing mix of critical reception of the painting itself, and the influence the painting had in the art world. There's stuff that should be in other sections: 'Lichtenstein's procedure entailed "the enlargement and unification of his source material...' (Description) and 'The Tate Gallery controversially bought...' (History).

The Background section also talks of too many distinct things: (a) what RL was doing before Whaam!, (b) the status of comic books at the time and (c) a summary of RL's comic-inspired work.

Prose: watch out for wordiness and repetitiveness. "Lichtenstein", for eg, features in pretty much every sentence of the article.—indopug (talk) 08:59, 14 August 2013 (UTC)