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Revision as of 04:11, 19 August 2013 editTonyTheTiger (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers400,527 edits →Arbitrary removal of relevant material: reply← Previous edit Revision as of 04:22, 19 August 2013 edit undoCurly Turkey (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users103,748 edits →Arbitrary removal of relevant materialNext edit →
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TonyTheTiger—you say in edit summary: ''"Legacy: rv User:Bus stop's change here. Not so concerned about other artists in this article"''. Nor am I ''"concerned about other artists in this article"''. The concern is purely with Lichtenstein. He is not the only ] using ] at the time. Lichtenstein is a member of the "Pop art" movement and virtually all of the members of the movement employed appropriation. Reliable sources tell us this, such as the one from the Museum of Modern Art. We don't just make arbitrary decisions that exclude information for no reason at all. The paragraph that we are discussing says explicitly or implies certain negative qualities associated with Lichtenstein, all of which are associated with the practice of "appropriation" in his artwork. We read for instance in that paragraph, and entirely related to "appropriation" that ''"Critics have raised concerns of impropriety"''. We also read within that paragraph that ''"Some have denigrated it as mere copying"''. This is obviously a reference to "appropriation". The term ''"plagiarism"'' is invoked, and we also read in that paragraph that ''"Other criticism centers on Lichtenstein's failure to credit the original artists of his sources"''. This is all related to Lichtenstein's use of "appropriation". Yet nowhere in the paragraph is it mentioned that virtually all of the biggest names in Pop art used the same technique. The paragraph is heaping wrongdoing on Lichtenstein without allowing the reader to know how widespread the practice was within the "art movement" in which Lichtenstein operated. If you disagree with the source that I provided then please provide a source displaying a differing opinion. Please replace the material in that paragraph that allows the reader to see the art historical context in which Lichtenstein "appropriated" the comic book imagery. I find it a contrived limitation on well-sourced, and educational, and relevant material to arbitrarily decide that the reader cannot know that "appropriating" images from ] was ] within the ] in which Lichtenstein operated. Thank you. ] (]) 00:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC) TonyTheTiger—you say in edit summary: ''"Legacy: rv User:Bus stop's change here. Not so concerned about other artists in this article"''. Nor am I ''"concerned about other artists in this article"''. The concern is purely with Lichtenstein. He is not the only ] using ] at the time. Lichtenstein is a member of the "Pop art" movement and virtually all of the members of the movement employed appropriation. Reliable sources tell us this, such as the one from the Museum of Modern Art. We don't just make arbitrary decisions that exclude information for no reason at all. The paragraph that we are discussing says explicitly or implies certain negative qualities associated with Lichtenstein, all of which are associated with the practice of "appropriation" in his artwork. We read for instance in that paragraph, and entirely related to "appropriation" that ''"Critics have raised concerns of impropriety"''. We also read within that paragraph that ''"Some have denigrated it as mere copying"''. This is obviously a reference to "appropriation". The term ''"plagiarism"'' is invoked, and we also read in that paragraph that ''"Other criticism centers on Lichtenstein's failure to credit the original artists of his sources"''. This is all related to Lichtenstein's use of "appropriation". Yet nowhere in the paragraph is it mentioned that virtually all of the biggest names in Pop art used the same technique. The paragraph is heaping wrongdoing on Lichtenstein without allowing the reader to know how widespread the practice was within the "art movement" in which Lichtenstein operated. If you disagree with the source that I provided then please provide a source displaying a differing opinion. Please replace the material in that paragraph that allows the reader to see the art historical context in which Lichtenstein "appropriated" the comic book imagery. I find it a contrived limitation on well-sourced, and educational, and relevant material to arbitrarily decide that the reader cannot know that "appropriating" images from ] was ] within the ] in which Lichtenstein operated. Thank you. ] (]) 00:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
:I am pretty sure this is longer than the 1500 KB upper bound of what I said I would respond to. However, I'll give you a minute. Basically, if you can get WPVA guys like Modernist or Ceoil to agree that this is an important change without causing Curly Turkey to protest, then you can make the change.--] <small>(]/]/]/]/])</small> 04:11, 19 August 2013 (UTC) :I am pretty sure this is longer than the 1500 KB upper bound of what I said I would respond to. However, I'll give you a minute. Basically, if you can get WPVA guys like Modernist or Ceoil to agree that this is an important change without causing Curly Turkey to protest, then you can make the change.--] <small>(]/]/]/]/])</small> 04:11, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
:*I've already stated that I think it ''does'' belong—in the Background section. ''Not'' as a POV rebuttal in a paragraph already chock full of rebuttals.
:*The word "impropriety" has already disappeared form the article. ]&nbsp;(]) 04:22, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 04:22, 19 August 2013

Whaam!

Whaam! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 17:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Reiterating the opening paragraph from Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Whaam!/archive1 (henceforth FAC1): I am nominating this for featured article because this is a highly important work of art that has a September 28, 2013 50th anniversary of its first exhibition. Over the last few years Roy Lichtenstein's modestly notable works have been selling in the $42–56 million dollar range. This is his single most important/famous work. At an absolute minimum it would sell for $70 million but could sell for two or three times that. If it were to ever be sold it would surely land on the List of most expensive paintings. It is one of if not the very most valuable military art painting in the world.

FAC1 was a very controversial nomination with 221,314 bytes plus 132,512 bytes archived to the talk page for a total of 353,826 bytes of content (call it 354KB) after 4 weeks. It had 2 supports (Curly Turkey and Binksternet) and 2 opposes (Modernist and John). John's oppose was on a 2-week-old version of the article. Modernist had wavered between oppose and support in the discussion and his oppose was an hour and a half old when the discussion closed. However, the reason for his most recent opposition stance had been reverted. At closure, several active discussants were undecided (Bus stop, Masem and Ewulp). Other undecided discussants with notable contributions to the discussion were Hiding and to a lesser extent Theramin who was an active editor of the article. Mr Stephen also made several edits to the article during its prior candidacy, but did not engage in the discussion. At one point, GrahamColm moved 97,268 bytes of Bus stop's comments (and responses by others) to the FAC1 talk page with the edit summary "I see this as peripheral to FAC criteria". Other discussants noted Bus stop's tireless and tiresome discussion style. Curly Turkey described it at various times as a filibuster and treadmilling. Masem, the most neutral of discussants on several issues, stated "Bus Stop's complaints are trivial and nuanced at best"

The prior discussion was contentious because WP:COMICS discussants (Curly Turkey and Hiding) wanted more detailed explanation of topics that WP:WPVA discussants (Bus stop and Modernist) felt were out of scope for this article. More specifically, COMICS folks have lots of negative commentary against Lichtenstein and this work is considered the prime example of their general arguments. The issue is how much of that criticism actually belongs in this article. For WPVA I have 6 (3 paintings and 3 sculptures) of the 56 FA-Class visual arts articles and 25 of the 112 GA-Class visual arts articles including my first GA and first FA, Campbell's Soup Cans. However, many of these crossed over into COMICS since June 2012 and I now have 2 of the 31 FA-Class Comics articles and 8 of the 159 GA-Class Comics articles. I have attempted to both be impartial and use my longstanding relationships with WPVA members to move the discussion forward. Due to the possibility of a 50th anniversary TFA and the unusual nature of the 354KB controversial nomination, a delegate has granted permission for a relisting after only 48 hours. Hopefully, four weeks from now we have reached a resolution of this discussion rather than accumulated 100s of KB of more contentious debate.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 17:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Support. My concerns were addressed at the first FAC, that the comics aspect should be given proper weight, naming the writers/editors/artists of the comic book which inspired Lichtenstein. My support is contingent on this material remaining in the article. If someone were to argue successfully that very little about comics was to be in the article then I would oppose the FAC. Binksternet (talk) 19:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Weak weak oppose Most of what I had issue with was dealt with in the first FAC (in removing much about the appropriation aspects to other articles, keeping this focused on Whaam!) This still leaves me with the "Background" section that needs improvement, as I find it too disjointed towards guiding the reader to understand why Litchenstein went to create this. It currently is focused too much on Litchenstein's past (Which should be in Litchenstein's article) and little on the pop art movement at the time. It should flow from the pop art state to Litchenstein's work to Whaam. This is easily fixed though I don't feel I have the knowledge to be able to do it justice. It's a simple barrier to get over. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
    • I am not sure how to respond to this concern. The section now has 4 paragraphs. The first explains that he had a military background that included pilot training. The second says that he transitioned into comics-based works. Paragraph three says that this was unusual subject matter, but Lichtenstein enjoyed it. Paragraph four discusses the themes of Lichtenstein's work at the time and their relation to this image. Where would you like to see pop art added?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 20:09, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Also, I am not sure what is requested. Are you requesting content similar to the first half of Roy_Lichtenstein#Rise_to_prominence?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 20:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
      • It should be less a bio about Litchenstein, and more about the pop art movement at the time when Whaam was conceived and created, which likely includes Litchenstein's contribution. Yes, the fact he was in the military and that he transitioned to comic book works is important, but we don't need as much details about him here, and are lacking details about the art world at the time. --MASEM (t) 21:27, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
  • FWIW at the time Lichtenstein painted and exhibited Whaam! Pop art was still in its infancy; the movement was in the process of becoming a movement; the artworld in the early 60s was in a state of transition as abstract expressionism and realism was on the wane and color field painting, geometric abstraction, minimal art, and pop art were beginning to attract more and more artists. In my opinion we don't really need to include any of this as context and I prefer the focus being on Lichtenstein's history...Modernist (talk) 12:13, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
  • See, there you go, stating pop art was at its infancy. That's good to add, that gives the reader the idea this was early in the period. The problem with it now is that the focus on Litchenstein's past is that we have a whole article dedicated to him, so if someone really needs to know the detailed bio, they can go there, as it is out of context for the painting. There are elements of his bio that are needed here, that he's ex-military, that he never had a love of comic books but saw them as a challenge, and a few other things, but not as much as there is now. --MASEM (t) 12:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm not saying those details aren't appropriate either, but right now the section weighs far too heavy on Litchenstein's detailed background (which is already at his personal article) and very little on the state of the art world at the time. We don't need his military record, but just to know he was in the military as to understand his fascination with that topic area. Similarly, pointing out that he wasn't a fan of comics but saw the use of comic-based work for his art as a challenge is an appropriate statement. But the lack of discussion to place where the state of the art world, and specifically pop art, is what this should start off at as to guide the reader to understand Litchenstein's desires better. --MASEM (t) 14:08, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Binksternet—you are asking "how comics were viewed". I think the answer to that is simple: comic books were viewed as being part of "popular culture". That is why their imagery was drawn upon by artists seeking to represent the imagery of "popular culture" in their paintings. Bus stop (talk) 14:20, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Masem is raising a good point but responding to it in our article would hinge upon the availability of sources addressing the question of how Lichtenstein's employment of imagery closely related to comic books fits into the pop artists' more general employment of a wider variety of images culled from what is commonly referred to as "popular culture". Masem says "This still leaves me with the "Background" section that needs improvement, as I find it too disjointed towards guiding the reader to understand why Litchenstein went to create this. It currently is focused too much on Litchenstein's past (Which should be in Litchenstein's article) and little on the pop art movement at the time. It should flow from the pop art state to Litchenstein's work to Whaam. This is easily fixed though I don't feel I have the knowledge to be able to do it justice." I don't think anyone has "the knowledge". Unless you find a source assigning significance to Lichtenstein's embrace of the comic book form seen in for instance the Whaam! painting, the Drowning Girl painting, and others, I think there is no way to fit Lichtenstein's choice of imagery in such paintings, into the more general category of images relating to "popular culture". Lichtenstein, in other paintings, certainly does avail himself of other types of images aside from those relating to comic books. I did find one comment in a source which I think slightly sheds light on the distinction that his comic-book-related images have which sets them apart from pop art imagery generally. In this article in The Telegraph, Alastair Smart says the following: "It’s his narrative scenes, though, for which Lichtenstein is best known: inspired not by the Bible or classical myth, but by comic books. In 1963’s diptych Whaam! – reworked from an American war comic and enlarged to mimic a huge Ab Ex canvas – a fighter pilot blasts an enemy into flaming oblivion." I think that in that comment Alastair Smart is distinguishing between the comic-book-related paintings that Lichtenstein has made, and just about all other works of pop art produced either by Lichtenstein or any other pop artist. Rather than try to paraphrase what Alastair Smart says I think we should just place his quote into our article: "It’s his narrative scenes, though, for which Lichtenstein is best known: inspired not by the Bible or classical myth, but by comic books. In 1963’s diptych Whaam! – reworked from an American war comic and enlarged to mimic a huge Ab Ex canvas – a fighter pilot blasts an enemy into flaming oblivion." Bus stop (talk) 13:56, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Context

I added this here just for us...Modernist (talk) 11:17, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Images

At FAC1, there was last-minute controversy around the images. GermanJoe, had approved all the images except for File:Drawing for Whaam!.jpg. After I removed the image, Modernist opposed because he felt that the image review suggested that more content was needed related to the image rather than the image be removed. I have since added content related to the image. GermanJoe, suggested that I now request Masem's opinion on the images based on his intimacy with the topic.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 20:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

If we start on the assumption that File:Drawing_for_'Whaam!'_cropped.JPG is a free image - which shows good detail of how Litchenstein would have proceeded to paint the painting from his sketch, then File:Drawing for Whaam!.jpg is extranous non-free as we basically currently have 4 drawings of the same "thing" in the photo, but the details provided by the cropped version do just as an effective job to help explain Litchenstein's creation process.
I will however state my concern that the cropped drawing being called free. I know I doubted the text balloon crop as being a free image before but was demonstrated wrong at Commons, a rationale I understand, but I think the cropped is far more than just text (more than the text balloon) and hard to argue as ineligible for copyright. I would recommend getting commons experts to review the image there. If they say its free , then my above statement stands. If it is not free, the full sketch is reasonable to remain behind, since the user can manually zoom in to see the coloring guide detail. --MASEM (t) 21:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
When you say "more than just text" do you mean something like a notable quotation. I wouldn't oppose removing the cropped text balloon, if we can keep the cropped drawing as free. I just need one free image for the main page in case of being eliigible for a WP:TFAR.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 00:14, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
One image of the sketch is sufficient to show, in line with the text, how he did a "paint-by-numbers" type approach to the sketch prior to projecting and painting it. The non-free, full sketch image is sufficient resolution to be able to see that in the WHAAM letters, so we don't need the higher resolution. However, if the cropped version manages to be free, then that image should be used. Basically, we don't need the sketch to show the layout of the art for the 3rd/4th time, but to show the paint-by-numbers scheme, so a finer detail that would happen to be free would be just as appropriate and better than a non-free full version. --MASEM (t) 00:27, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
You feel that even with the additional content the full drawing is redundant with the crop? Keep in mind we don't have the image at a high resolution for zooming. IIRC, when i ran my first FA, Campbell's Soup Cans, at WP:TFA, they allowed me to crop one can for the main page. That is sort of what I am doing here. In the long run the article may be better with the full image than the crop.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 00:14, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Calling Modernist: Since you opposed the removal of the full image of the drawing, you may want to comment here.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 00:16, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Given that Campbell's Soup Cans was a TFA back in 2007, prior to the adoption of our current non-free content policy, I suspect that what could go on TFA was not as rigorous as it is now (though looking at the talk page of that, it does appear that no image was allowed on Main Page, and the blurb page has no image period, so I don't know what exactly happened). Today, zero non-free can be on the front page (there was even a recent discussion about this a few months ago) Now, as explained at commons, the speech balloon crop is free so that's at least something because it is just text - for all purposes. Here, you actually have elements of the flames and the like behind WHAAM, meaning it is more than just text, and ergo is more a possible problem that there are still copyrightable elements in the crop, hence why I would get commons to review if that crop is tight enough to leave something uncopyrightable. --MASEM (t) 00:27, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
And just to note, I do see that there was an image called "Campbells_Soup_Cans_MOMA_reduced_80%25.jpg" used in a May 5, 2007 version of the Soup Cans blurb, but given that with my admin powers I don't see it here, I suspect was since deleted at Commons, meaning that it was not considered free later. Your speech balloon crop is clearly okay for a TFA front page, since commons says that crop is sufficient for ineligible copyright, so you have something. I just feel that you can't call the crop that you have around the WHAAM in the draft image includes too much that is beyond lettering to be ineligible for copyright, which is why I suggest a call over to commons to help review. --MASEM (t) 00:36, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
To help out, I posed the question at commons: . --MASEM (t) 00:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I think we should keep the full image - it shows that he actually drew the entire picture not just the blown up crop depiction of Whaam with numbers - it's somewhat deceptive. Frankly we can dump the text balloon - which is really gratuitous and keep the full drawing and if possible the cropped drawing too...Modernist (talk) 01:11, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The complete drawing in the article with the painting makes the article - gives it quality; clarity and power. The full drawing belongs and aids in understanding how the painting was made it must be kept...Modernist (talk) 01:15, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Sorry, there's nothing in the text to support the full drawing if the cropped version around WHAAM is free. You have the final piece of art which doesn't vary significantly, so there's little comparison to be made there; the more interesting comparisons are between the original comic panels and the final art, and the final art and the parody work. You do want one of the two images of the sketch to show the mechanics Litchenstein used, but you don't need both, and if the cropped version is free, the full version has to go under NFCC#1. But if the cropped version is not, then the full version is fine (and then to meet TFA, you need the text balloon crop as the free image). --MASEM (t) 01:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The full drawing belongs and aids in understanding how the painting was made and the cropped version really should go - hopefully it isn't free (and one of these days you guys should change those rules so common sense dictates)...Modernist (talk) 01:30, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but we have a mandate from the Foundation to reduce non-frees and encourage free content creation. The (possible) free image shows the process in as much depth as necessary that the sourcing in the text provides as the large one does, and there's nothing that demands the reader to see the large image to understand the processes any better than the cropped version does. --MASEM (t) 01:37, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I am more than willing to go to the mat to buff up the content related to the drawing to show its relevance, but I do not have sources supporting such. Is there a chance that with additional sources providing greater relevance to the drawing that it might be kept. There is already significant amount of text in the article discussing the differences between the original conception and the drawing and then the drawing and the original. It is not clear that this alone is not sufficient justification to present the entire Drawing.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 01:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The issue here is that we are looking at NFCC#8, second part, that the reader's understanding of the topic of Whaam! would be harms if we removed the non-free, full sketch. As we have the final colored art and the original work it was based on, composition elements are visually shown, so this aspect is not lost to the reader, nor am I seeing anything in text that describes major changes in placement between the draft sketch and the final art to a degree that needs visual imagery (There is the factor of how the plane and explosion were moved closer together in the final image, but that's something easily described in text). I do agree that seeing the paint-by-numbers approach is helpful and removal would be harmful, and thus if we do have to resort to a non-free image (the full drawing) to show this, that's fine. But there's a potential for free content to show the same thing and if that can be used (per the commons discussion) then we are required to do so and forego the full size draft image. If more can be found that describes the critical importance of the draft image (as a whole, or more on the copyrighted elements) on the final art, then that would lead to justifying the full non-free draft image, but I'm not reading that at this time. --MASEM (t) 02:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

In terms of whether the crop is free, I think it might be more free if I cropped only the upper left letters so that no shapes other than letters are visible. The non-alphabetic shapes are somewhat artistic and make arguments against free possible.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 01:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Alternatively, we could do some not linear cropping out of elements to preserve only the WHAAM text in the drawing.---TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 01:49, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
There are probably other ways to crop the image to show the same essence (the paint-by-numbers approach) while increasing the likelihood of copyright ineligibility, but let's wait on commons input on the current crop. I certainly think this is the right way to go, I just want to make sure its clear. --MASEM (t) 02:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Follow along at Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Drawing for 'Whaam!' cropped.JPG.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 03:38, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I commented there...Modernist (talk) 10:19, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Squeamish Ossifrage

Prose:

  • In Description: "One of Lichtenstein's series of war images, it combines "brilliant color and narrative situation"." Do we need to use a direct quote for this sort of observation, which doesn't appear to require much in the way of analysis. If so, shouldn't it be attributed in the text?
  • "These dots, which were invented by Benjamin Day to "recreate gradations of shading", were considered Lichtenstein's "signature method"." Dots are not a method, but perhaps their use is?
  • The image caption "Whaam!'s text balloon was likely written by Robert Kanigher." can be interpreted to imply that Kanigher actually did the lettering in Lichtenstein's work. Is there a better way to word this? Perhaps calling Kaniger "likely the original author" of the text or something along those lines?
  • In Reception: "According to Douglas Coupland, the World Book Encyclopedia had pictures of Warhol's Monroes and Whaam! in the Pop art entry for illustration." Do we need to cite someone citing the illustrations in an encyclopedia entry? Can't we just reference the encyclopedia, since there's no interpretation required to judge what images illustrate the article?
    • I don't have the World Book Encyclopedia from Mr. Coupland's youth. Mr. Coupland is not the author of the text. Thus, I am not sure what alternate presentation of this content would be accurate. Would you like me to just remove the "According to Douglas Coupland" bit?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 04:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "One view is that...". Whose view?
  • "It has been observed that the "simplicity and outdatedness were ripe for being mocked"." This is cited to a Paul Gravett source; are those his words? There's no direct attribution of the quote, and "It has been observed" is a weak construction in general. I've actually noted several of these, and I'm going to stop doing so at this point; in general, I'm not extremely fond of direct quotes that don't identify the speaker, doubly so if it seems that we could get the point across without directly quoting.
  • In general, the Reception section seems to wander a bit, with several short paragraphs that don't flow together in a particularly recognizable manner. I'm not even sure all of this is strictly under the right heading. The bit from Bradford Collins (and a few other parts, bit that especially) feels more like analysis than reception, and it's not immediately evident why his opinion matters to begin with (he's not wikilinked, and the claim seems ... odd to me, as an outside reader).

Images:

Reference formatting:

  • You do not use a consistent format for the display of secondary authors. "Horace Clifford Westermann" in Note 2 versus "Boswell, John" in Note 41. There are multiple examples of each, so I'm not sure what standard is 'right' here.
  • Sometimes you wikilink publishers, sometimes not. I can't discern any criteria that determines whether you do or not, which means it probably needs looked at.
  • All of your notes citing Waldman specify "War Comics, 1962–64"; is there a reason you cite this (chapter, presumably) in the notes, but not in the reference since you don't use anything else from that source?
  • You have three notes pointing to the Bader reference. Notes 25 and 29 fully cite the book, while Note 49 uses an abbreviated format due to the work being included in the references below.
  • From Note 44: "(2013-05-13 (Spring 2013))". Since we have a specific publication date, is the season necessary? Basically, I'm looking for a way to avoid nesting parentheses like that.
  • Note 53, should circa be abbreviated?
  • Note 54: is the 3rd edition revising author relevant to the 4th edition? I don't know how the book lists the authorship, so maybe. In any case, there's a comma in Prather's parenthetical note, but not in Wheeler's. Regardless, edition should probably be abbreviated, as it is in the other edition notes. And at least some databases seem to use commas in the title instead of bullets; cover design notwithstanding, is the book officially titled with bullets?
    • It does seem odd to credit the third edition author in the fourth edition, but that is how the book did it. It must mean that a lot of the third edition's content survived even though the credited author changed. I am only relaying the information presented in the book itself. Admittedly most 4th editions, would not detail authors of prior editions, but this one did for some reason.
    • issues addressed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 17:01, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
  • In Note 58, I assume the indication that Evans is the editor is merely improperly formatted, rather than the book being authored by a "Mike Ed Evans".
  • Most periodical sources have their titles linked, but there are some that aren't, such as The Times in Note 66 and The Burlington Magazine in 67. Frankly, Note 66 doesn't seem to match the reference format used elsewhere at all, including date formatting. Perhaps there's some template use differences here? I didn't look at the markup.
  • The Coplans reference is lacking an ISBN, which I believe to be 978-0713907612.

Other:

Leaning oppose at the moment, primarily due to my concerns over the Reception section's overall structure and the use of direct quotes without naming their speakers, but I'm confident the shortcomings can be remedied within the FAC period. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:45, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Curly Turkey

  • "The borrowed technique was "representing tonal variations with patterns of colored circles that imitated the half-tone screens of Ben Day dots used in newspaper printing, and surrounding these with black outlines similar to those used to conceal imperfections in cheap newsprint." Rebecca Bengal at PBS wrote that this is similar to the ligne claire style associated with Hergé."—The "this" in the second sentence seems to imply things in the first sentence not associated with the ligne clair style. For one thing, the style was an aesthetic choice, as the printing quality of Tintin was far higher than that of American comics—it was not printed on "cheap newsprint" (except in its original serilizations, in which case it was in black-and-white, and thus had no Ben Day dots). This appears to be a case of WP:SYNTHESIS. I also still think the Hergé is out-of-scope and quite probably anachronistic.
    • Saying things are similar in appearance does not imply any sort of temporal relation, especially not contemporaneity. Anachronistic means that there is at temporal incongruity. I do not understand this complaint. We have a reliable enough source that she is employed by PBS saying A is like B. She does not say A inspired B or any similar relation. How does sequential concern arise out of this comparison?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 03:01, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The more I read Priego's article, the more relevant I think it is to the article, particularly how he distinguishes the contexts of comics and fine art. He talks of how the original panel is a part of the composition of the whole page (or multicadre in French theories), and talks of the emphasis fine art puts on the image-as-icon in contrast to comics emphasis on image-as-narrative. I think some talk of this can clarify for the reader how and why this painting is not comics, and shine light on how Lichtenstein transformed the image aside from mere "appropriation" (and why comics folk such as Gibbons don't see any kind of "improvement"). Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
    • I am not seeing the same points you are seeing in this work. However, if you wish to summarize what you want included in the article in one or two sentences and want to point out what part of the article it should be placed in, I would be glad to include it.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 02:38, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
      • How about something like:
        "Ernesto Priego wrote that while the work adapts a comic-book source, WHAAM! itself is not a work of comics, and "not even a comics panel". It derives meaning post hoc by referencing its audience to features such as genre and printing methods. Visually and narratively, the original panel was the climactic element of a dynamic page composition. Lichtenstein emphasizes the onomatopoeia while playing down articulated speech by removing the speech balloon. According to Priego, "by stripping the comics panel from its narrative context, Whaam! is representative in the realm of fine art of the preference of the image-icon over image-narrative".
        Neither my intention, nor Priego's, is to denigrate the painting, but to clear up misperceptions. I'm sure there's a clearer, more compact and elegant way to put it, but this is my first stab. Curly Turkey (gobble) 07:09, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Have you thought about adding all those higher quality sources you mentioned. I think you mentioned multiple such sources and I only noticed you adding one without removing any. I thought you were going to add some and remove some.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 20:49, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
    • The sources I referred to were ones that were already in the article that mentioned attribution issues but not royalties issues. The best of those was the BBC, and I slapped that one on that sentence a few days ago. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:01, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "The use of these dots, which were invented by Benjamin Day to "recreate gradations of shading", was considered Lichtenstein's "signature method".—It's really not surprising that a system called "Ben Day" would be invented by a guy named Ben Day. there really is no compelling reason to state it. And why is "recreate gradations of shading" in quotes?
  • "training programs for languages, engineering, and pilot training" A training program for pilot training? My grandfather did exactly that, but somehow I doubt that's what you intended to say.
  • "According to the Tate, Lichtenstein claimed that "this was his first visualisation of Whaam! and that it was executed just before he started the painting."" Is this Lichtenstein speaking? Referring to himself in the third person?
  • "two equal sizes of paper"—"equally-sized"? "two sheets of paper of equal size"? Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Support, though I still strongly believe the bit about Hergé is an anachronism in relation to this painting. Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:34, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

  • The paragraph beginning: "According to critic Priego,"—is this not "Analysis" rather than "Legacy"? Also, I don't know who added "the panel itself is not a just limited by the conventions opf comics, but takes on a life of its own", but does it reflect what Priego actually wrote? Are we attributing things to Priego that he didn't actually write? Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Why is there so much space given to the opaque projector, when it's clear it was never used for this painting? Curly Turkey (gobble) 03:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Bus stop

Scope at one particular paragraph:

The paragraph beginning with the words "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's perceived improprieties…" which is found in the Reception section of the article is problematic. There is actually only one notable individual raising concerns over the similarity between the imagery that is in the painting Whaam! and the imagery that is found in that painting's comic book sources. That person is Dave Gibbons and his comments can be found here and here. I completely endorse that Dave Gibbons' comments and point of view should be in this article. Yet the name Dave Gibbons does not even appear in the paragraph that I am referencing. That paragraph, problematically, speaks in general terms about unspecified paintings and unspecified comic book imagery. Dave Gibbons, by contrast, speaks specifically about the relationship between the painting Whaam!, which is the subject of this article, and a specific comic book image created by a comic book artist named Irv Novick. This is precisely the sort of commentary that should be in the paragraph to which I am referring and yet it is absent. Instead there is general commentary about unspecified paintings by Lichtenstein and their unspecified comic book counterparts. I feel that all material in this paragraph should relate specifically to the painting Whaam!. This article is not the same as a more general article such as the Roy Lichtenstein article or the Appropriation (art) article. Those kinds of articles have scopes that make them appropriate for discussions of Lichtenstein's imagery generally and its relationship to its source material such as comics. A more full treatment is possible in an article such as the "Roy Lichtenstein" article or the "Appropriation" article and therefore I think there would be a greater likelihood of achieving a neutral point of view in such an article. I think this article should be kept free of general commentary on Lichtenstein's paintings and their relation to source imagery as found for instance in comic books. There are several commentators from the art world who feel that the paintings by Lichtenstein bear little visual similarity to the comics to which they relate. These commentators point this out and explain in concrete terms why they believe this to be the case. Bus stop (talk) 04:00, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

That very paragraph names at least one other person Ernesto Priego. Gravett shares this concern.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 03:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

TonyTheTiger—can you tell me why this article should not be required to remain within the realm of its own scope? You say at the top of this page:

"COMICS folks have lots of negative commentary against Lichtenstein and this work is considered the prime example of their general arguments."

This article is not a playground for editors you refer to as "COMICS folks". We actually have reliably sourced criticism of Lichtenstein's use of comic book imagery in the painting Whaam! and yet it is not in this article. I am referring to only one paragraph in all of my comments here. That is the paragraph in our article beginning with the words "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's perceived improprieties…". It is at the present time found in the Legacy section of the article. At the top of this page you say:

"The prior discussion was contentious because WP:COMICS discussants (Curly Turkey and Hiding) wanted more detailed explanation of topics that WP:WPVA discussants (Bus stop and Modernist) felt were out of scope for this article. More specifically, COMICS folks have lots of negative commentary against Lichtenstein and this work is considered the prime example of their general arguments. The issue is how much of that criticism actually belongs in this article."

In point of fact there is included in the article virtually no substantiation in sources that there is "impropriety" in Lichtenstein's use of comic book imagery in the painting Whaam!. The sources are available. But they are not used. Instead the article has opted for general criticism of Lichtenstein's use of comic book imagery in an unspecified number of paintings. This is outside of the scope of this article. Please note that this is an article on one painting.

The Ernesto Priego "criticism" that is in this article is actually criticism of "National Periodicals". It is not criticism of Lichtenstein or his use of comic book imagery in Whaam!.

By far the most substantial source of criticism of Lichtenstein's use of comic book imagery in Whaam! is Dave Gibbons.

We have a BBC source written by Alastair Sooke in which Sooke relates Dave Gibbons' comments. Gibbons is quoted as saying "I’m not convinced that it is art"…"A lot of Lichtenstein’s stuff is so close to the original that it actually owes a huge debt to the work of the original artist. But in music, for instance, you can’t just whistle somebody else’s tune no matter how badly without crediting or getting payment to the original artist." Can you please tell me why none of this is included in the article? Is it excluded from the article because it happens to be within the scope of the article?

We have another another source (gravett.com) in which the same individual—Alastair Sooke—asks Dave Gibbons if he feels Lichtenstein is a plagiarist . Gibbons replies "I would say ‘copycat’. In music for instance, you can’t just whistle somebody else’s tune or perform somebody else’s tune, no matter how badly, without somehow crediting and giving payment to the original artist. That’s to say, this is ‘WHAAM! by Roy Lichtenstein, after Irv Novick’." That is genuine criticism that is 100% within the scope of this article. But instead of on-topic material we find generalized criticism of an indefinite number of Lichtenstein paintings that happen to use comic book imagery. Why should't this article remain within its scope and why shouldn't this article be required to remain on topic? Oh, I forgot—the "COMICS folks have lots of negative commentary against Lichtenstein". It doesn't matter if a contingency of editors have a point-of-view to push. We should remain within scope. There are other articles at Misplaced Pages (Roy Lichtenstein, Appropriation (art)). Well-sourced information should be able to find a home on Misplaced Pages.

Instead of including in-scope material, this article has inexplicably opted for including generalizations about wrongdoing applicable to an indefinite number of Lichtenstein paintings. That is a misuse of this article. Again, I am referring to only one paragraph in all of my comments here. That is the paragraph in our article beginning with the words "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's perceived improprieties…". It is at the present time found in the Legacy section of the article. Bus stop (talk) 19:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:TLDR. I am not going to start out by humoring you. You need to make your comments much more brief. Look at everyone else's comments. I will not respond to anything that you post that is longer than 1500 characters.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 19:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I have to agree with Tony here, Bus Stop. You're repeating yourself, probably for the third or fourth time from the first FAC. You have points that are valid, but no one is going to be able to read through your comments to figure out what is implementable. If you shorten up to get your point out, there's a better chance a solution can be had. --MASEM (t) 19:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
TonyTheTiger, Masem—I think a final sentence that should be included, as I've pointed out before, is:
"The process of borrowing images from other sources is called appropriation and was also practiced by Lichtenstein's pop art contemporaries."
This is well-sourced to MoMALearning, which is a Museum of Modern Art web site. We are an encyclopedia. The quality of sources should be considered a significant factor on what information gets included in the article as well as the emphasis it receives. As long as material extraneous to what is strictly the scope of the article is being included willy-nilly, why not include a sentence that includes information that has been vetted by an especially relevant source such as a museum of contemporary art? Bus stop (talk) 20:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
We have discussed this very topic in the past. Note that the article already includes the following sentence "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's perceived improprieties, such as use of appropriation—borrowing of imagery from other sources— in Whaam! and other works of the period." Footnote 77 is the very one that you mention above. It is used to cite the dashed parenthetical explanation of appropriation (borrowing of imagery from other sources). I do appreciate your patience, persistence and attention, but this is fairly strong compromise the way I have incorporated your suggestion.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 22:55, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
TonyTheTiger—why does that sentence say "such as"? Are there any other "perceived improprieties"?
Furthermore, what is there to "compromise" about? You say "I do appreciate your patience, persistence and attention, but this is fairly strong compromise the way I have incorporated your suggestion." If you see an issue, can you please explain that issue to me?
We are talking about perfectly straightforward, factual information. The source is telling us that "Robert Rauschenberg, Claes Oldenburg, Andy Warhol, Tom Wesselman, and Roy Lichtenstein reproduced, juxtaposed, or repeated mundane, everyday images from popular culture".
The first sentence of the very brief article says, "Appropriation is the intentional borrowing, copying, and alteration of preexisting images and objects." Is something unclear about that?
This is an article on a painting. The painting is an example of pop art. There were many pop artists. The ones named utilized what the article is calling "appropriation". Is there some reason that we should not share with the reader that other pop artists utilized "appropriation" too? Bus stop (talk) 23:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Bus Stop, Tony's point is you keep repeating yourself at length, even though he believes he has addressed the issue already. You're far too wordy and circle around the issue without saying it. Get to your point, a statement "This article must include a statement on 'blah'", and don't quote endlessly about the issue. Otherwise, your points will be ignored or overlooked. And if you've already made a statement about something, just link back to it. --MASEM (t) 00:26, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Something about the usage of appropriation in the Pop Art movement should be be talked about—not in "Reception", but in the "Background" section, which is ghostly thin on details of the contemporary art world. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:36, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

We already say he was parodying other artists in the history section. I am open to a paragraph about appropriation in the background. What content would you like to see there? (Bus stop be brief if you choose to respond).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 02:06, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm talking about maybe a short paragraph or so summing up "what the art world had been up to" (as @Binksternet: puts it above). In the last FAC @Modernist: talked about "the artworld of the 1960s when Abstract Expressionism was waning, and Minimalism, Hard-Edge Painting, Color Field painting and Pop Art was on the rise". It's not clear if he was recommending adding these things, but I do believe it's exactly the kind of thing Binksternet is calling for (in which case, I agree; I think this may be what @Masem:'s looking for as well). In such a paragraph, a brief explanation of appropriation would fit nicely, especially adjacent to (maybe leading into?) the stuff about comics in the "Background". Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:55, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Regarding "the artworld of the 1960s when Abstract Expressionism was waning, and Minimalism, Hard-Edge Painting, Color Field painting and Pop Art was on the rise"- if there are content deficiencies which both the art guys (represented by Modernist) and the comics guys (represented by Curly Turkey) view congruently (and in concurrence with our neutral parties Masem and Binksternet), I am very interested in rectifying them. First, let me repeat that you guys are all more expert than me. I have only learned about art by going to museums for entertainment and to the library for wikipedia. I have never taken a course and have no experience. For a sentiment like this a source would be great. Better yet, since both of you are more expert than me, you can feel free to jump in. Yes let's add some content related to this issue.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 19:51, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
I have proposed some content (some of which you've added, some of which I'm awaiting your feedback on), but the artworld stuff is probably best handled by those who've already brought this stuff up. Right now, I see the lack of artworld background as the article's greatest deficiency. Curly Turkey (gobble) 20:24, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

In the paragraph beginning with the wording "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's perceived improprieties", presently found in the Whaam!#Legacy section, I think the following is called for:

  • We are not so much concerned that "Some have denigrated" the painting "Wham!" as "mere copying". We should be told who has denigrated the painting "Wham!".
  • We are not so much concerned that "Critics have raised concerns" about the painting "Wham!". We should be told which critics raised the concerns about the painting Whaam! and what specifically were those concerns?
  • We are not so much concerned that "Other criticism centers on Lichtenstein's failure to credit the comic book artists" relating to the painting "Wham!" but rather who raised that criticism of the painting Whaam! and what specifically was that criticism?

The general problem that I perceive in that paragraph is a failure to relate specifically and concretely to the painting that is the subject of the article. Bus stop (talk) 11:24, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

    • I believe these statements are inactionable, as long as there is a reliable source behind each that effectively states "there are some that believe X", without stating who that some are. If the article did not source those statements and there was no quote, then I would definitely expect that the statement would have to be followed by explicit examples and quotes/summations from a few of those as to justify it. But the sourcing give for each of the above are equally vague about who explicitly made those statements, but those sources are also reliable (eg BBC), so we are not making the claim of that broad generality but letting the RS make it. Further, in relationship to Whaam, the details of "who" are not so important here and would move away from the topic. --MASEM (t) 13:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Masem—this is an article about the painting Whaam! and the only person supporting the sentiments expressed above in relation to the painting Whaam! is the person Dave Gibbons. These are your sources: and . The expressed sentiments should be attributed to Dave Gibbons. The present wording suggests that others share Dave Gibbons' sentiments. If any others do in fact share Dave Gibbons' sentiments, that information can be included and that information too should be supported by sources. We should be articulating specific sentiments attributable to specific individuals concerning specifically Whaam!. Again—this is an article on the painting Whaam!. I don't think that this article should switch into a more general mode in that paragraph. Let us stay on the topic of the painting Whaam!. Bus stop (talk) 14:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Except the only person that sources seem to articulate is Gibbons, (BBC's calls him "One of them", referring to the negative critics), and there's a section about Gibbons' parody work in the Legacy section, where his specific commentary on Whaam! is best suited as to understand the rationale behind the parady. The only paragraph in Legacy that seems out of place because it doesn't mention Whaam directly is the one that begins "Comic books were in turn affected by the cultural impact of pop art.", though the statements it has are relevent to the subsequent discussion of Whaam. Again, I think you're issues are inactionable to the level of detail we expect for WP and given available sourcing. --MASEM (t) 14:34, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Masem—the article has a scope. There is no justification (that I know of) for straying outside of the scope. The material is sourced to a specific individual. Are you arguing that we should not say who that individual is? I would argue that not only should we name the individual but we should allow him to speak for himself. Quotes are provided in both of the sources that I mention above of the actual language Dave Gibbons uses in relation to the subject of this article. The subject is a painting. The scope of this article is tied to the painting Whaam!. Bus stop (talk) 14:45, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
You are conflating two issues.
  • Issue 1 is of scope. I agree that we should stay focused on Whaam and anything that is broader (about Litchenstein, about pop art, etc.) probably should be discussed in depth in those articles. But it is not a crime to have a brief statement that will lead readers to those other articles in the context of Whaam. Thus, the paragraph that begins "Comic books were in turn affected by the cultural impact of pop art." may be a bit out of scope since Whaam is not directly mentioned but it is a reasonable thing to attach to Whaam if it can be tied in better with the other text around it. Basically, the key is a reading flow to help the reader as much as possible, and if one has to step away from specifics about Whaam! to note this, then that fine. (This is necessary here for the appropriation aspect as without that discussion, Gibbons' parody makes no sense)
  • Issue 2 is of opinion attribution. We as WP editors cannot make claims that "some critics felt X" (a statement of OR) without either immediately showing the sources of critics that felt X, or going to a RS that has that statement. As we have the latter case, we don't have to outline who those people were. Gibbons is unique, since he was specifically called out and shown to have done a parody work of Whaam! on the issue of appropriation, so calling him out and his opinion is fine. However, all the other "some critics felt X" statements are those made about the broader issues and not about Whaam! itself, so it makes little sense to go into detail about it here (Issue 1 again), and thus asking to call out the specific critics really doesn't make sense. --MASEM (t) 15:02, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Masem—how many "improprieties" are there? We read "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's perceived improprieties, such as use of appropriation—borrowing of imagery from other sources—in Whaam! and other works of the period." Isn't there only one potential "impropriety"? Isn't that one possible "impropriety" called "appropriation"? I believe it is. Shouldn't we add a sentence to the end of that paragraph reading: "The process of borrowing images from other sources is called appropriation and was also practiced by Lichtenstein's pop art contemporaries." If not, why not? Bus stop (talk) 17:16, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
If you've got such a bug up your bum about the word "improprieties", then maybe you should stop ignoring the wording I kept proposing to you. Curly Turkey (gobble) 19:18, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Appropriation is already linked in the article, and unnecessary to link again. --MASEM (t) 18:50, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Indopug

Inclined to oppose

The organisation of information is a little all-over-the-place, a problem arising from large and unwieldy sections. Either create more sections or sub-section the existing ones. Then you need rearrange stuff logically for better flow and less redundancy. Take the last para of History: it begins with the 1966 Tate purchase (info that is repeated in Reception), moves to Drawing, jumps to its 2006 acquisition, a 2012-13 retrospective (which is mentioned again, twice, in Reception), before returning to a justification for what happened in 1966.

Reception is also highly disorganised: I suggest going about it chronologically. Start with 1960s reception, and then come to the present (maybe in another, Legacy?, section). The section is also a confusing mix of critical reception of the painting itself, and the influence the painting had in the art world. There's stuff that should be in other sections: 'Lichtenstein's procedure entailed "the enlargement and unification of his source material...' (Description) and 'The Tate Gallery controversially bought...' (History).

The Background section also talks of too many distinct things: (a) what RL was doing before Whaam!, (b) the status of comic books at the time and (c) a summary of RL's comic-inspired work.

Prose: watch out for wordiness and repetitiveness. "Lichtenstein", for eg, features in pretty much every sentence of the article.—indopug (talk) 08:59, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I'll be quite honest. At the FA level, my organizational skills are kind of week. Probably about a third of my FA credits benefited from reorganization by another editor. I am fairly certain that I will not ba able to sufficiently rearrange the content in a satisfactory way. I had tried to divide the reception into positive and negative subsections, but these were removed in favor of chronological reception. I don't know how else to subdivide things. I have put in a request with a veteran WP:WPVA editor to help me organize this. He has helped me organize a recent successful FA Look Mickey that was also by Lichtenstein. I am not sure how interested he might be in helping on this one because the WPVA people seem to have some issues with the content.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 03:57, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Indopug, did the reorganization by Ewulp suffice?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 19:39, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
This may get a makeover. It seems that Ceoil (talk · contribs) has graced us with his magic hands. He is one of the best WP:WPVA copyeditors out there.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 22:24, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Ewulp

I agree with much of what Indopug says; "Reception" was for me the least satisfactory section; I hope I've made it a bit more digestible. Some more adjustment may be needed: possibly some of the details of comic-book history could move to the "History" section. After Ben Day dots are described in paragraph 2 of "Description", there needn't be a second detailed description in the section's last paragraph—something should be trimmed there. Ewulp (talk) 06:14, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Reception is copy-edited a bit more. Ceoil (talk) 20:01, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Modernist

Modernist, My guess is that this content was largely copied from another article possibly written about 3 or 4 years ago. two of the URLs are now dead ( and ). Do you have refs to replace those?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 16:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Question

Is the WP URL for ref 72 supposed to be present? --Another Believer (Talk) 06:25, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Stray text removed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 16:21, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Great, thanks! --Another Believer (Talk) 03:13, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Leaning support: I'm getting happier with the prose. My impression is that the bones of a fine article lay here, but its a few copy past edits from it yet re a re-org. - Only. I am very impressed with Tony's work on this so far. He has responed well, and I think should be allowed now time to move sections about and then come back to people. It should be appreciated that he took on an FAC on a very difficult and tangled work of modern art, one that a lot of us have strong feeling about. But it can be done. Ceoil (talk) 06:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

In ways, it seems that the article has tried to skirt around the fact that ther images are...couching...borrowed. Rewording to make this more explicit. The work is what it is, take it or leave it, that's beside the point here. It can only be said so many times...thats the whole point, he was out to aggrivate. Its pop art for FS. This should not impact on its suitability for FAC. I'm dissapointed that the artice has not been taken on its own mertits, but instead has been drawn in to a broader argument. Ceoil (talk) 08:12, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Ceoil—the article is reading "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's appropriation…" Are there any bona fide critics raising such concerns? I think "critic" is being misapplied. Or perhaps one is stretching the meaning of the term "critic" to include a wider group of people than is usually intended by the term? Shouldn't this require sourcing—either in the form of several examples of "critics" raising these concerns, or in the form of a reliable source telling us this? One problem here is that the term "critic" in the context of a work of art may imply art critic. I think very few "art critics" raise the "concerns" referred to. If some do, than that should be offset by inclusion of the opinions of those who argue the opposite. Many responsible and genuine art critics writing for publications with for instance the imprimatur of the Museum of Modern Art state quite clearly that the painting is visually quite distinct from sources in comic book imagery. I will try to locate some opinions in this regard expressed by art critics, as they offer opinions that differ sharply from mere concerns with superficial similarity between painting and comic book imagery. Now that I think of it—one immediately comes to mind: "Comparing the source for Whaam! with the finished painting banishes the hoary idea that Lichtenstein profited on the back of the creativity of others. Lichtenstein transformed Novick’s artwork in a number of subtle but crucial ways." That is by Alastair Sooke. But there are several others that I have encountered. The gist of what they say is that elements of the painting decisively set it apart from comic book imagery, but some provide specific, concrete details on the visual factors that set the painting apart from the comic book imagery. (Alastair Sooke's quote lacks these concrete details.) Bus stop (talk) 11:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
We've already addressed this point, Bus Stop. As long as the RS's use do a hand-wave around "critics" or other details, it is not required for our article to resolve that or go beyond that, as there's no OR going on. --MASEM (t) 13:31, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Busstop: adressing, but my feeling is that you are raising a more general point, unfairly, in the context of this specific FAC. Ceoil (talk) 14:04, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
IMO MASEM is right about this. You are trying to raise a meta issue that is perhalps out of scope here. Ceoil (talk) 14:19, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Ceoil—the paragraph beginning with the words "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's appropriation…" is problematic. It is condemnatory of Lichtenstein. It doesn't even point out that most if not all of Lichtenstein's fellow pop artists were also engaging in the appropriation of imagery that they found in "popular culture". We learn from MoMALearning that Robert Rauschenberg, Claes Oldenburg, Andy Warhol, Tom Wesselman, and Roy Lichtenstein engaged in the taking of imagery from preexisting sources in "popular culture". Our article is failing to point out that the borrowing of preexisting imagery was standard operating procedure for pop artists. When we read that "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's..." we assume this is a problem particular to Lichtenstein. But it is obviously not a problem particular to Lichtenstein, but rather a practice that was used by pop artists in general. The paragraph is basically in violation of WP:NPOV. The paragraph is mostly condemnatory of Lichtenstein. Furthermore the notion that "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's appropriation" is also largely untrue because many if not most art critics do not raise such concerns and many argue quite the opposite. Consider the following. This is from a book published by the Museum of Modern Art:
"Many in Lichtenstein's audience of the early 1960s considered the subjects of his paintings to have been no more tampered with than Duchamp's store-bought objects—images lifted almost intact from their commercial sources. It was a reaction the artist was looking for: "The closer my work is to the original, the more threatening and critical the content." But, he added, "I think my paintings are critically transformed." Girl with Ball's deviations from its ready-made inspiration amply bear out Lichtenstein's assessment. On the most obvious level, a shift in scale from a one-column newspaper advertisement to a life-size image, combined with a transition from black-and-white printed reproduction on newspaper stock to Mondrian-like harmonies of red, yellow, and blue on canvas, necessarily produces an intensity of mood beyond the reach or ambition of its source. Aside from these elemental changes, the artist manipulated the girl's figure to endow the painting with something of the visual impact of hard-edge abstract painting. To paraphrase Lichtenstein, he was at the time aiming at "anti-Cubist" composition, defined by him as the isolation of an "object on a blank ground," thus defying "the major direction of art since the early Renaissance, which has more and more symbolized the integration of 'figure' with 'ground."
The main point in the above is that Lichtenstein images are not"lifted almost intact" from "their commercial sources." For instance there is "an intensity of mood beyond the reach or ambition of its source." Our paragraph which begins with the words "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's appropriation" is perpetuating a debunked myth. Certainly there are some people who say that Lichtenstein merely copied comic book artists. But that opinion should be balanced out in our article by strong sources stating otherwise. MoMA is an especially reliable source on points such as these. Bus stop (talk) 16:05, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
The very paragraph you are talking about goes to lengths to debunk myths you are concerned about. Curly Turkey (gobble) 20:52, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Curly Turkey—we don't say that "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's appropriation, in that he directly references imagery from other sources in Whaam! and other works of the period" because that is what appropriation is, in essence. Appropriation is the direct referencing of imagery from other sources. Bus stop (talk) 21:18, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Bus Stop—we've long established that we all know what appropriation is. We've also long established that people still have issues with it. Christ, man, life ain't black and white. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:49, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Without trying to analyze what is wrong with it, this is not good writing: "Critics have raised concerns over Lichtenstein's appropriation, in that he directly references imagery from other sources in Whaam! and other works of the period." There is also a problem in that paragraph in that it fails to mention the relevant point that it was not only Lichtenstein who practiced appropriation at that time. It was probably all Pop artists. This little source confirms for us that many well-known names in Pop art working at the same time as Lichtenstein were also involved in indulging in "appropriation". Bus stop (talk) 22:13, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Out of interest, how widely realised actually was it at the start by the art world, just how closely Lichtenstein was working from underlying sources? Was this something that was commonly known from the outset (but might or might not have been considered of much interest), or was Lichtenstein merely considered to be working in the style of comic-books, until the detailed analysis of his sources was presented by afficionados of the original works? Jheald (talk) 22:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't know. User:Modernist would probably know more about that. My guess would be that it was known though perhaps imperfectly. Modernist posted this above. It might be relevant to the question you raise, although it is from 1966, which may be a few years after his first comic book style paintings. Bus stop (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
(ec)By the 1963, Lichtenstein was in heated debates with the artistic community on what constituted original work. In 1962, he did Portrait of Madame Cézanne which was quite controversial (although not comics-based). By the time of this work, he was being debated as a copycat or artist in leading publications.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 23:05, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Masem (background section)

The background section is still disjointed, and I really don't understand why there's a split here. I'm reading it carefully and its still focusing far too much on Litchenstein's detailed past that can be summarized to lead to the work better. Below is a rough attempt to reword it for this:

By the late 1950s and early 1960s the American art world had grown accustomed to and tired of the subjective angst and "hot" look of abstract expressionism. A new generation of artists emerged with a more objective "cool" approach characterized by the art movements known today as minimalism, hard-edge painting, color field painting, the neo-Dada movement, Fluxus, and pop art (which along with neo-Dada re-introduced and changed the use of imagery) re-defining the avant-garde contemporary art of the time.
Lichtenstein was considered one of the initiators of the pop art movement in the 1960s. Many of his works in the late 1950s and early 1960s were derived from comic books, which at the time were considered "the lowest commercial and intellectual kind", according to Mark Thistlethwaite of the Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth due to the perceived connection between comic books and juvenile delinquency. Litchenstein's works would take small source panel images from comics and enlarge them, use techniques he learned during his non-combative career as a draftman for the U.S. Army. Litchenstein himself was not a comic book enthusiast but enticed as an artist by the challenge of creating art based on a subject remote from the typical "artistic image"; Litchenstein had stated that "I was very excited about, and very interested in, the highly emotional content yet detached impersonal handling of love, hate, war, etc., in these cartoon images."
His earlier comic-based works were based on popular animated characters such as Look Mickey. By 1963, the year of Whaam's creation, he had become more reflective and started to work with comic imagery from romantic or war-related situations, drawing from his past military career and interest in aeronautical themes. These works took heroic subjects from small source panels and monumentalized them. Litchenstein considered "the heroes depicted in comic books are fascist types, but I don't take them seriously in these paintings—maybe there is a point in not taking them seriously, a political point. I use them for purely formal reasons."

(Please note, I would expect a good copyedit of this for wording; also I didn't leave in some references but what ones should be used should be the same). My point is how this keeps it from pop art to Litchenstein's comic book art and then to his specific military-themed comic art. Just enough of his bg is necessarily give to understand that he was in the Army and where he learned to enlarge works. --MASEM (t) 14:02, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Can other people chime in on this proposed restructuring.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 18:18, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
  • This sentence Lichtenstein was considered one of the initiators of the pop art movement in the 1960s. should remain where it is.
  • This seems too simplistic and basically inaccurate: Many of his works in the late 1950s and early 1960s were derived from comic books, which at the time were considered "the lowest commercial and intellectual kind", according to Mark Thistlethwaite of the Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth due to the perceived connection between comic books and juvenile delinquency.
  • I prefer leaving things be...Modernist (talk) 18:44, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
As an aside just saying, - Initially Lichtenstein claimed to take a bubble gum wrapper as his first commercial art source for a painting; in a spirit of absurdity - anything goes - and then he sourced commercial art; and then he got onto comic book art...Modernist (talk) 14:27, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
In my opinion a good comment specific to Lichtenstein's "comic book art" is the one made by "Alastair Smart" in The Telegraph: "It’s his narrative scenes, though, for which Lichtenstein is best known: inspired not by the Bible or classical myth, but by comic books. In 1963’s diptych Whaam! – reworked from an American war comic and enlarged to mimic a huge Ab Ex canvas – a fighter pilot blasts an enemy into flaming oblivion." This is a comment directly about Whaam!, directly about "comic book art", and the observation I think has applicability to both Lichtenstein's "war-themed" and "romance-themed" "comic book art" paintings. It is not a bad comment/observation. I think it should be placed in the article intact. I think it would be pointless to try to paraphrase it or to only use part of it. Bus stop (talk) 17:39, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
I do not mind this addition, but Masem seems to be trying to shorten this section.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 17:57, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
It's not so much shorten, but focus. Much of Litchenstein's past is not directly related to Whaam, hence the refocus. --MASEM (t) 18:04, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
I think Masem's only talking about compressing the first paragraph of the "Biographical context" section. I agree it could be cut down without anything important being lost. Things like "After entering training programs for languages, engineering, and piloting, all of which were canceled" for instance are pretty tangential. Also: why was the Background section divided into Art world and Biographical sections? The section wasn't nearly long enough to warrant this. Curly Turkey (gobble) 20:56, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Reply (mostly to Curly and Masem): Pilot training shaped his career. Be careful what you say to cut. Also, keep in mind that everything in the WP:LEAD is a summary of the main text. I.E., the main text has more detail than the LEAD. Don't cut things out in the main body without cutting them from the LEAD. No one seems to be complaining about the LEAD that makes it seem that his military training greatly influenced his career.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 22:14, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Of course, his pilot training should remain, but overall, a lot of this material can easily be compressed without losing anything of substance to the article. Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:15, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Just letting folks know that Ceoil has stated his support of Masem's thoughts and has made some edits in that regard. Not sure if Ceoil is done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 03:18, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary removal of relevant material

TonyTheTiger—you say in this edit summary: "Legacy: rv User:Bus stop's change here. Not so concerned about other artists in this article". Nor am I "concerned about other artists in this article". The concern is purely with Lichtenstein. He is not the only Pop artist using appropriation at the time. Lichtenstein is a member of the "Pop art" movement and virtually all of the members of the movement employed appropriation. Reliable sources tell us this, such as the one I provided from the Museum of Modern Art. We don't just make arbitrary decisions that exclude information for no reason at all. The paragraph that we are discussing says explicitly or implies certain negative qualities associated with Lichtenstein, all of which are associated with the practice of "appropriation" in his artwork. We read for instance in that paragraph, and entirely related to "appropriation" that "Critics have raised concerns of impropriety". We also read within that paragraph that "Some have denigrated it as mere copying". This is obviously a reference to "appropriation". The term "plagiarism" is invoked, and we also read in that paragraph that "Other criticism centers on Lichtenstein's failure to credit the original artists of his sources". This is all related to Lichtenstein's use of "appropriation". Yet nowhere in the paragraph is it mentioned that virtually all of the biggest names in Pop art used the same technique. The paragraph is heaping wrongdoing on Lichtenstein without allowing the reader to know how widespread the practice was within the "art movement" in which Lichtenstein operated. If you disagree with the MoMA source that I provided then please provide a source displaying a differing opinion. Please replace the material in that paragraph that allows the reader to see the art historical context in which Lichtenstein "appropriated" the comic book imagery. I find it a contrived limitation on well-sourced, and educational, and relevant material to arbitrarily decide that the reader cannot know that "appropriating" images from popular culture was standard operating procedure within the art movement in which Lichtenstein operated. Thank you. Bus stop (talk) 00:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I am pretty sure this is longer than the 1500 KB upper bound of what I said I would respond to. However, I'll give you a minute. Basically, if you can get WPVA guys like Modernist or Ceoil to agree that this is an important change without causing Curly Turkey to protest, then you can make the change.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 04:11, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I've already stated that I think it does belong—in the Background section. Not as a POV rebuttal in a paragraph already chock full of rebuttals.
  • The word "impropriety" has already disappeared form the article. Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:22, 19 August 2013 (UTC)