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Image/source check requests

• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Lanny McDonald/archive1 -- image/source reviews pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:42, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Done - image check. No issues. GermanJoe (talk) 10:43, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Thaddeus McCotter presidential campaign, 2012/archive2 -- source review pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:45, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Done. Some issues listed. --Laser brain (talk) 13:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Jo Stafford/archive1 -- source review pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:38, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Done - some cleanup done. A few questions to RS. GermanJoe (talk) 08:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Nintendo DSi/archive5 -- image/source reviews pls. Ian Rose (talk) 11:42, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Done - image check. No issues. GermanJoe (talk) 13:55, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
• I've notified the Wikiproject here. « Ryūkotsusei » 17:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Tasha Yar/archive1 -- source spotcheck for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Burger's Daughter/archive1‎ -- source spotcheck for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing pls. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:59, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
• Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Pacific Swift/archive1 -- apparently I need a source review, this looks like the right place, thanks in advance Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:26, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

•  Doing... Sasata (talk) 05:38, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks, it's been done 14:41, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

• After one week Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Whaam!/archive2 is now 5 support, 1 neutral, 1 weak weak oppose. Image and source review needed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

RFC on governance of the FA forums

Dear colleagues, current circumstances suggest that it's time for a structural adjustment in the governance of the three FA forums (FAC, FAR, and TFA). Two problematic issues inter alia have been discussed on this page: first, Raul, who has been FA director since 2004, has not edited since 11 February; and second, the director's role is not well defined and has involved little or no activity for some years.

The proposal, with minimal change in mind, is that we make three adjustments: (a) no director; (b) current "delegates" renamed as "coordinators", since their roles would no longer be delegated; and (c) the coordinators in committee—after consulting with the FA community—determine any further changes and fill vacancies.

The last is a pragmatic compromise to avoid the popularity contest that would result from voting for coordinators, while enabling the community to express its views on any proposed changes or appointments. It acknowledges that we already invest considerable trust in the FA coordinators (currently "delegates"), a trust that in my observation they have never abused.

This is the formal proposal:

1. FA director: That there no longer be a position of FA director,
2. Emeritus FA director: That the community record its profound gratitude to Raul for his creation of and service to the FA project over the past decade, and that he be asked to accept a new, honorary position of Emeritus FA Director, in which he might offer high-level advice in relation to the FA forums.
3. FAC coordinators. That the current three FAC delegates be renamed FAC coordinators and continue in their roles without reference to a director.
4. FAR coordinators. That the current two FAR coordinators continue in their roles.
5. TFA coordinator. That the only active TFA delegate, Bencherlite, be renamed TFA coordinator and continue in his role without reference to a director.
6. Changes and vacancies. That the FAC, FAR, and TFA coordinators in committee—after consulting with the FA community—determine any further changes and fill vacancies.

FAR is already run by coordinators, without reference to a director.
Dabomb has indicated to Bencherlite that he is no longer available for TFA duties, and Gimmetrow (Gimmetoo) has not edited since January 2013. It has been noted above that FAR coordinator Nikkimaria has agreed to serve as a backup TFA delegate/coordinator.

This has been advertised at WP:VP, WP:CENT, and the talk pages of the other featured-content forums. I look forward to input from the community. Tony (talk) 10:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Support

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

• Tony (talk) 10:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support – Open to changing my mind. I have my concerns about proposal 6. I trust the community to be able to deal with the appointment of new coordinators without it becoming a popularity contest. I believe that Raul only ever governed by consent anyway. – Shudde 11:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• This is clearly a step in the right direction. Ed  14:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support—although I would prefer that the proposal address the possibility of appeals from the decisions of the new coordinators, or the potential for total recusal of the coordinators pool at an FA subprocess. Imzadi 1979 → 15:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support This looks like a great way forward, very sensible proposals. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support, for now, with the exception of #2. We don't need more funny hats and we don't need a Byzantine system of honorary court titles on this wiki. I'm sure Raul doesn't need it either. If and when he returns, and wishes to get involved in the process again, the proposed system is quite sufficient to get him reenabled in any way people feel appropriate – e.g. as another coordinator. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support except give the emeritus director the same role/privileges as the other directors. Nergaal (talk) 17:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Although it has several things that may need to be polished, but they can be polished later. This is way much better than our current situation here. — ΛΧΣ 17:26, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I read it as the advice offered does not have to be taken. --Rschen7754 19:24, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Seems sensible. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:27, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. This is a needed change. Everyking (talk) 22:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support, although I suggest that, should Raul not return to active editing, there be a process to remove any emeritus title he holds. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Seems like a step in the right direction. -- Khazar2 (talk) 04:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support 1, 3, 4 and 5 only. We don't need to invent any new titles, and as Nick-D says below, what is "the FA community"? If all six options are offered only as an irreducible package, I cannot support them. — Scott • talk 13:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support because we need to reform the existing creaky system of FAs. Wer900 • talk 20:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I'd also skip the emeritus thing, but if it pacifies somebody, so be it. --99of9 (talk) 20:43, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Why not? It's a logical progression in the hierarchy of the site. Kurtis 23:12, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support most of this. The exception is #6. My preference would be that the coordinators be elected, and that the length of their terms be defined. And selection of coordinators needs to be opened up to the entire community, not just the FA community, which might be difficult or impossible to define. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support as addressing the current situation and a step in the right direction. Community and new coordinators (which are part of the community btw) can discuss further details. I trust the current volunteers to keep an open communication and to work on occurring problems with all interested editors and reviewers. GermanJoe (talk) 14:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. A necessary step in the right direction. Concerns about Raul abusing his new position referred to in #2 feel like raw nerves and/or hyperbole, as #2 mentions 'advice' only. If Raul oversteps that mark, he'll rightly cause quite a stir. #6 seems to be good enough for the moment; no doubt another RFC will appear in a year or two to consider issues that have arisen from this new model that haven't been addressed in the interim. John Vandenberg 07:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support This all seems pretty straightforward and is a minimal change based on how things are done currently anyways. Silverseren 01:09, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support While I'm personally in favor of a more open process, this is a step in the right direction and better than nothing.Acer (talk) 18:51, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I've read the RFC and the history it links to, and I'm unconvinced. On a site whose governance depends on consensus, a fiefdon like this is absurd. This is a move in the right direction. I would like to see #6 tightened up and would like a clear system for appeals to be added. --Stfg (talk) 19:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support - removal of the director position and bringing keeping the roles at a equal level is really a good direction.  A m i t  웃   23:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support Sounds eminently sensible. Don't feel the need for emeritus status or high level advice, unless it is assumed or offered, respectively, with the reticence of Pope Benedict. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:41, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support I'd like to see all of the bureaucracy scrapped, but this is seemingly at least a step towards restoring Misplaced Pages policy here, in particular: WP:CON. I think that regardless of this discussion, giving raul a title which only has value in name, while recognising institutional memory, sounds fine to me. If members of the community can choose to give barnstars and the like, members of the community can assuredly give this. (Presuming, of course, the title has the same effect as having a barnstar.) - jc37 22:44, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Let experienced individuals who know what they are doing pick new people. We don't want another RFA. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

Strong Oppose See alternate below. PumpkinSky talk 12:32, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Strong Oppose There is no reason why the community should not be able to handle the selection of coordinators in these areas. It does so quite well in other areas. Number six is unfortunately an invitation for cliquery to eventually take over. No unlimited powers, no unlimited terms, no depriving the community of an effective voice in the process. I also decry Tony's misconduct in the matter, his desire to get have his proposal considered first, his email canvassing of delegates, and his edit warring so I have upgraded (?) to Strong OpposeWehwalt (talk)|

Oppose #2Sorry but that sounds plain ridiculous. Raul is another member of the community, and not the king of FA. 16:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Retrolord (talk • contribs)

Strong Oppose all (including below) recognizing Tony's best intentions for the FA process, and I will lay out my reasoning in alternate sections as I have time later. In the meantime, there are numerous either outright false or misleading statements throughout the discussions on this page, and I suggest that all have a good read of the RFC held in the not-so-distant past which clearly lays out the history of FAC, the description of the FA director, as well as broad community support for the director position. Misplaced Pages:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership gives an accurate history of the FA process, errors on this page notwithstanding, and explains why a director is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

You have no right to edit or move other people's comments. Given the canvassing and edit-warring you have engaged in, why would you be trusted to do so fairly?You are the proponent. No one has asked you to serve as coordinator.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a request for COMMENT: I am aware of no guideline that permits the person launching the RFC to dictate the size of subsequent responses. Perhaps someone could provide one? At any rate, I have left most of Tony's move in place and restored one sentence which I believe to be important: I have limited time, but do hope people opining here would have at least read the RFC. Choess, I saw a request from you somewhere on this page to elaborate on my ideas ... I am hoping to have a block of free time later today. Once again, I urge restraint and careful consideration here; I believe we are capable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:56, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppose Per SandyGeorgia. There is no reason for this. There was an RFC only a few months back that re-endorsed Raul as FA director, and his semi-retired status was not overlooked. I am not sure who the "FA community" referred to are but they appear to be "editors who have never written an Featured article, and are not involved in the process". Presumably it was added to prevent the delegates from simply scrapping it. Let's do this for them. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Of the six positions, I support #1. No director has been needed for almost a year, as far as I can see, we don't need one in the future. - I don't know why new people to help the FA processes (however these people are called, if at all) would be "chosen" by those already active, - it seems not in community spirit, therefore I oppose #6. I am willing to help as far as I am able, without any title, as I did before. It would just be nice to get a thank-you (not this) if you help, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose It's unclear what is meant by the "FA community" in this context, so I can't support this proposal - this would be saving up trouble. Nick-D (talk) 10:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, essentially echoing Nick and Wehwalt. What makes someone part of the "FA community", exactly? Is it that they comment on FAs, that they write them? In either case, this would inevitably lead to insurmountable problems. If something goes terribly wrong with the FA system, I don't want the people tasked with resolving it to be defined as "the people who, by dint of tolerating a terribly broken FA system, qualify as part of the FA community". It lends itself to poor governance review, should governance problems crop up, because the group it excludes from having a voice is those who have an issue with the system. Ironholds (talk) 10:43, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Sandy; imo we do need a new person as director, as Raul seems to have completely dropped away, but not changes to the system (decided by this sort of process) otherwise. Johnbod (talk) 15:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose – The problem isn't with the system, but with the director himself. Raul has doubtlessly done a lot for the FA process, but he just isn't around at this time and really hasn't been on a consistent basis for years. When I supported him at the last RFC, I was assuming that he would become more active again, but that didn't happen. If it was up to me, we would be deciding on a new director now. The prospect of choosing one scares me, as I've said before, because of the hostility that shows up any time we have a serious debate on the matter, but we're at the point where things can't continue this way. Still, I think the idea of a director remains valid, and the concept still works at FLC. I like the idea of having somebody who can weigh consensus on difficult FACs/FARs and provide guidance in general. And how would the "coordinators" consult with the FA community? We (the community) already ratify delegates now, so this isn't changing anything in the current system. Giants2008 (Talk) 19:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Seems to me that the system is working; however we need to figure out how to proceed with a means by which delegates and a director can be legitimately agreed upon. I nominate Sandy to succeed Raul...Modernist (talk) 00:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose T. trichiura Infect me 15:25, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose there may very well be good reasons why the governance model needs to change, but I don't think this has been sufficietly established. More importantly, while I don't deny the good intentions behind this proposal, it does seem it was rushed, insufficiently discussed and poorly implemented. That means it's entirely unclear if this is really the best way to reform. And I don't think the set up of this RFC is good for such discussion as it was set up to discuss one proposal (even if a package of proposals are contained within that proposal and people are free to reject those they feel unnecessary) with the later addition of another. (It also shows on other ways like the lack of clarity surrounding some aspects of the proposal, as highlighted by others.) I'm not even sure if an RFC is needed so earlier on, or it would be better for interested parties to have preliminary discussion leading either to a a small number of options to be put to RFC, or a more structured RFC seeking feedback depending on what those participating feel is necessary. BTW, I'm not sure if this exceeds 50 words, but I ask this be kept here as I feel my comments in their entirety are needed to explain my position for admins trying to determine consensus. And while I appreciate the desire to keep general discussion structured, I'm not sure that a hard word limit is the way to go. I'm also pretty sure there's no guideline allowing any such unilateral imposition. And yes, I appreciate the irony that these comments may push it over but given the controversy above even if it seems to have been resolved I felt it best to pre-empt. Nil Einne (talk) 22:35, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as written because point 6 creates an ill-defined clique of the Featured Article Community that could further cause disputes over who belongs to the clique. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:06, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Use of pejorative descriptors like “god”, “king”, “dictator”, “oligarchy”, etc. and allusions thereto in the surrounding discussions strikes me as unintelligent and obtuse conflation of oversight of mere process(es) with governance of a nation state. The role of director is and generally has been that of an independent (i.e., as auditors use the term – neutral, free of conflict of interest) and informed observer who may act as an end point of escalation/final arbiter when necessary (note, importantly, that “observer” implies a hands-off approach). I don’t recall Raul oppressing the huddled masses, rendering editors into pillars of salt, or banishing those who poach his deer. To believe FA director is a position of power in line with the aforementioned pejoratives is to fail to understand the FA process(es) and the role itself. If semantics are at issue and “director” is too commanding a title, choose “chairperson”, but removal of an appellate position would be unwise. The current structure and functions are necessary to the process, but they do need active editors. Эlcobbola _talk 15:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

That is, other than his attempts to ban (and block) Br'er Rabbit, whose wikicide did not vindicate Raul (though I hear there's a rant a-prepping to the contrary which argues at extreme length and screams about sockpuppets and sockmasters and other matters unlikely to ensure the peace is kept around here). He also went forth on his talk page against those he deemed his opponents, including myself, which surely was not putting production before personality, for not respecting his Divine Right to FAC, and against PumpkinSky, which led to the infamous conversation here in which his close ally Moni3 blocked PumpkinSky, indef and without warning, two hours after calling him an "idiot" and a "dingus" (closely akin to the conduct which Hawkeye7 was desysopped for for blocking Malleus), and two minutes after SandyGeorgia had complained that "Did I say, a few hours ago, "Oh, I'm so sure all will be promptly, courteously, and correctly dealt with at ANI !!!" Yep. Ok, no action, and people removing the template from his talk even though it's confirmed. I've been ... ummmmm ... informed that Rlevse still has friends in powerful places. Not only has there been no block, there's not even a tag on his page. Yay ANI !!! So, what's the next step for getting this account blocked? I'm noticing how little the community gives a darn about the sustained disruption that has been visited upon FAC for months now." Moni3 had, as I recall, also threatened a block against PS during the so-called RfC, which certainly helped put the chill on opposition there. Given that PumpkinSky has returned to help pen the most-viewed TFA in history, again, I think he is well-vindicated. And it says something about the climate of fear around here that although Moni's misconduct was (to my knowledge) reasonably widely known, no one had the guts to do anything about it until 28bytes finally unblocked him, and 28bytes was then promptly elevated to bureaucrat with near-unanimous support. We were all afraid ...

The past administration was more about personality than production. In what way was Raul independent when he was ranting against productive FA writers such as myself and PumpkinSky for having the temerity to question his indefinite term as director? Would you hire an outside accountant with a public grudge against the CFO? Raul's absence does not make the heart grow fonder, and I urge everyone to read a few threads before going on a nostalgia kick. I hope for a fairer, less personal, less permanent, and less emotional administration in future. We cannot afford to turn the keys to the kingdom over to anyone without checks and balances, such as term limits.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:04, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

And let's not forget Raul's onwiki "pitchforks" statements where he colluded with Moni against me and got me blocked--the one Wehwalt is talking about. PumpkinSky talk 12:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I’m sure this is all quite fascinating, but, as an attorney, I would expect you know better than most the utter meaninglessness of speculation. Nowhere here is a coherent explanation of why a director position is detrimental to the FA process. The situation you reference 1) undermines notions of divinity or dictatorship (Raul, an admin, would not need to use Moni to block adversaries if actually in position of unchecked power) and 2) would still arise under a community election model (admins so elected are perpetually accused of acting as a cabal, and equally as baselessly). Where are diffs of Raul acting unilaterally to the detriment of the project or the process? Where, next, is an analysis of how this action was the result of a corrupting effect of the position, not attributable to Raul as a person? Where is an analysis of how the RfC was not (and would not in the future be) a power check? (Name an editor so “chilled” by the purported collusion so as to have avoided participation therein; then name 68 more to equalize support for an elected roll.) It seems rather telling that the response addressed the sentence in which I was being glib rather than the sincere points. Speaking ill of an editor is not an abuse of power, and good works do not “vindicate” misbehavior, a notion of which PumpkinSky is likely aware. Эlcobbola _talk 17:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

As you wish. You spoke of the need for independence, the need for someone who was "neutral, free of conflict of interest". I believe what I put is evidence that Raul was not. This is not a court of law; I need not follow the rules of evidence as locally implemented. I believe I have adequately shown that the governance model is somewhat capable of improvement, as evidenced by specific incidents which amount to a course of conduct. You, on the other hand may choose to view it as the best of all possible FACs and that is your privilege.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:18, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppose any special status for Raul who in my experience has pushed some sort of agenda, I am not certain of its exact goals, for years. A formal thank you is not objectionable but ratification of his activities is not. Replacing an old clique with a new one would not be progress. The process needs to be open without veto power by some "respected" leader. User:Fred Bauder Talk 12:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, FA directors/delegates/whatever should be chosen by community consensus and not by fiat. Stifle (talk) 13:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Neutral

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

5 out of 6: Which I guess is "neutral." Cannot abide the idea of replacing the current system with something apt to become exactly the same thing. Will comment further on the thread below Montanabw 19:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Neutral. Would like to see Sandy's proposal further developed. I don't think it's appropriate for us to retain someone who's de facto abdicated as an official part of the process. Can see arguments both for retaining the role of director and for distributing remaining powers among delegates. Choess (talk) 22:41, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Choess, I am seriously busy through mid-August, but I hope to find a block of free time in the next 24 hours to write up something. These RFCs were launched prematurely, and there is much that should be discussed in terms of what options are before us before people start "voting" on RFCs. It is always unfortunate when someone launches an RFC without adequate discussion, and we have shown many times at FAC that we know how to discuss, frame, then launch ... my time is so limited for the next six weeks and it would be most encouraging to catch up here and find people behaving in ways that bring respect to these pages. I'll be back as soon as I have a block of free time and can address this con calma. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Don't feel rushed. At the time I was presuming that this RfC might actually go somewhere, and I wanted to be able to weight the alternatives of single director (for which there's no formal proposal here) vs. committee of coordinators. (I think there are advantages and disadvantages for both). Since the whole thing is now collapsing in the process-and-formatting bickering that precedes a non-consensus close, I don't feel a particular sense of urgency. Choess (talk) 16:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

thanks for understanding ... unfortunately, too much of what little editing time I had today was taken up with some of the unnecessary back-and-forth, and merely correcting a few of the many misstatements that are throughout this discussion. I have every intention of writing something up, but would prefer to do it when I can devote a full block of calm, uninterrupted time without IRL pressing demands. In particular, I want to address examples of situations that have come up in the past as they influence the decision about a directorship relative to delegates, but it is challenging to write about often confidential and very delicate situations, extending at times to RL, in which full disclosure would violate Misplaced Pages policies-- there are numerous examples that have been unaccounted for in these discussions, but how to write about those examples presents a problem. I sincerely hope that before the time comes that I can write something up, we will see participants here showing a willingness to work together towards productive solutions and the framing of a well-considered RFC. (Also, thanks Brianboulton for the response!) Best to all, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:37, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not involved in FA matters at all, but any system (either the old or the proposed one) that relies on a hierarchical setup of functionaries strikes me as somehow un-Wikipedian. Or maybe it's just me who thinks that too much fuss altogether is made over these little golden stars?  Sandstein  07:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

• The one deficiency that I see in the proposal is the potential need of a "supervisor" for the FA process to handle a) appeals from the decision of one of the subprocess coordinators or b) decisions in a subprocess when all of the coordinators are recused. It would be unfair to ask a co-equal coordinator to override the decision of another co-equal coordinator in the event of a disagreement over the closure of a nomination at FAC, FAR or TFA. Likewise, it isn't far-fetched to imagine the situation when all coordinators would end up recused from a nomination. At least with the directorship, there was the nominal avenue of appeal, and the backup of someone able to step in at a subprocess on the rare occasion when the delegates were recused or unavailable. Note: I do not want such appeals sent to the community, as such an action, would in my opinion, undermine the independent and impartial role established for the leadership in the overall FA process. Imzadi 1979 → 15:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Correct. And we have had such situations in the past (those who don't know history ... ) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Comments from SandyGeorgia moved unnecessarily: Misplaced Pages:Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership gives an accurate history of the FA process, errors on this page notwithstanding, and explains why a director is needed. "Coordinators" do not, cannot, and will not be able to uphold what has always made FAC work, which is the ability of delegates to ignore pile-on, buddy , rubber-stamp, "vote"-style supports and who are empowered instead to allow one well-placed oppose to prevent the promotion of poor articles to featured status. (FAC is not a vote-- diminishing delegates to "coordinator"-style vote counters will diminish the process.) The position of FA director, in that sense, is distinct from, for example, a MilHist coordinator. This proposal will, in sum, eliminate that ability and diminish the FA process to another vote, with quality of articles diminished. I will initiate a discussion as I have time, implore newcomers to read the old and very thorough RFC, ask those assuming that I have not emailed Raul to please use some common sense (I am not *that* useless), am dismayed to see that admins have edit warred over something well within the competence of the delegates to handle, and am reminded that some behavior here has amply demonstrated exactly why a director is needed. I implore the delegates to convene and nominate a new director from their ranks and put that person forward for community endorsement. That is all I have time for now, other than to remind folks here that we have in the past demonstrated the ability to put forward well considered RFCs that have broadly endorsed the position of FA director, time and time again. For the sake of what value remains in the bronze star, could we all please show some respect and restraint? And could we please frame RFCs correctly? The history and duties and job description are well laid out in a very broadly endorsed and fairly recent RFC; I encourage caution and restraint in tossing out something that has been so broadly endorsed as working in the past, merely because those who brought FA to a successful place were ungratefully chased off of Misplaced Pages by those who sought to eliminate the position. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• That is precisely why we are here; the god of FAR abicated, leaving a vacuum. So long as there is an odd number of coordinators, I see no worries with a coordinator model. That said, another solution would be a term of service for leadership, sort of like US Judges on the lower-level courts (where no one person is designated "chief justice"), with the coordinators rotating "senior" status on an annual basis so no one person becomes entrenched. Montanabw 20:01, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• I have no idea if I should Support or be Neutral on this. Is there a difference between being a coordinator and a delegate? GamerPro64 20:32, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Delegate means you were appointed by and working for someone. Coordinator is more in line with the consensus model. PumpkinSky talk 20:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Huh. Never knew that. Guess I have to change my status at Featured Topics then. GamerPro64 20:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• GamerPro, that is a very good question, which no one yet on this page has accurately addressed. I hope to find time later today to explain that and address some other inaccuracies on this page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I tell ya. This is becoming really confusing at this point. Sure I work at a different sector for Featured content but seeing that Featured Articles are usually part of Featured Topics I just wanna see if there's something to this discussion. GamerPro64 18:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• So, in the interest of correcting inaccuracies above:

1. FA coordinators will, of course, have the same power as the delegates have now. The argument given above—that the coordinators at the Military history Project don't have the ability to ignore supports or opposes in its A-class reviews—is wrong. The only difference for FA coordinators vs. delegates is in the name.
2. The previous RfC was one year and five months ago. That's far longer than "a few months back", and it is clearly enough time to allow consensus to change; I'm one of those who have switched sides.
3. The need for a 'supervisor' is really one that everyone should decide for themselves, but appealing to one or both of the other coordinators/delegates is clearly an option, and one that has worked well at the Military history Project and the WikiCup. Ed  22:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Coordinators should not have the absolute power to set policy, but certainly they should have discretion, as stated, to close nominations to ignore improper votes. I think that's fundamental to being asked to determine consensusWehwalt (talk) 23:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm a little nervous about the "votes" formulation. As I understand it, when an article comes to FAC, the FA director or his delegate is responsible for determining whether or not it meets FA standards. Since that's a herculean task, and so as to be less skewed by personal bias, the delegate solicits input from members of the community. But it isn't a "vote" in the sense that if six people support, one person opposes and provides a counterexample that the delegate agrees is valid, the article won't be promoted, numbers notwithstanding. "We will continue refining until all valid objections are satisfied" is, after all, closer to the proper use of "consensus" than a majority vote. (I suspect we're in vehement agreement on the general thrust here—that for the purposes of this proposal, the coordinators should collectively enjoy the powers of the director to determine consensus—but I wanted to clarify.) Choess (talk) 23:44, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we're all in the same camp here—I'm not opining that they be given unilateral power, just the leeway to discount FAC votes. Ed  14:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'm confused by Hawkeye7's comment; as Ed pointed out, the big, high-participation RfC on the subject was seventeen months ago, not "a few months". Furthermore, when I look over it, I see comments like this: "I would prefer if Raul got more involved in the day-to-day operations of the FA process," "a discussion on what should happen when the current Director is no longer able or willing to continue would be beneficial," "As long as he continues to discharge his functions, she should not have to spend time on campaigning to keep the job," "I hope that well before he leaves Raul will try to set up some succession system," "I would like to see Raul...in a more visible role," "I would like to see a yearly (Dispatches-style?) report back from the Director and delegates in each area on how each process is going". I do not see this as an endorsement of "semi-retirement", and indeed, many people explicitly endorsed the idea that Raul's role should be re-examined by an RfC if issues with his performance arose—as we're doing now. Choess (talk) 02:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

And yet the proposal above would institutionalize the same sort of appointment process that left us with Raul, whose enthusiasm curve for the project could easily be mapped. While we are blessed with good coordinators now, the same might not always be true. I do not think it's a good idea to brook a repetition of watching Raul (not the person who used that name, but the "character". Undoubtedly the man who used the name "Raul654" to edit Misplaced Pages is doing good work someplace) slowly becoming inert, and why a proposal would be brought which would expose the community to a possible repetition, is beyond me..--Wehwalt (talk) 03:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, that was what, an eight-year trajectory from "someone needs to take charge of this" to phoning it in? This seems like overplanning for events of that frequency. Moreover, replacing the delegates seems to have run along without too much drama—and if all the responsibility devolved on them, they'd have a good incentive to encourage inactive delegates to resign (more work for them). More later when I have time. Choess (talk) 05:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Not really... Raul was enshrined by an op-ended process in 2003. This process would instead have the coordinators/delegates propose a respected editor to the FA community to confirm. I'm leaning more towards elections, but I also fully suppose this step, which is far better than what we have now. Ed  06:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I see Tony's proposal as, say, making the "consent" stage of the American Senate's "advise and consent" purely optional. Which would reduce it to irrelevance.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I interpret it as a requirement, something that the delegates aren't currently held to... Ed  14:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

We saw, I think, when Raul briefly rumbled back into life in 2012, that he ignored possible delegate candidates, such as Brianboulton, who were too closely associated with those he deemed his enemies who had had the temerity (in his mind) to try to oust him. While the present active delegates are all good eggs, the day will come when they move on from Misplaced Pages. Nothing lasts forever. Enthusiasm arcs have a downward side, too. They will one day be replaced. Allowing for a self-perpetuating oligarchy is a grievous error, just because Tony does not trust the community is no reason to have it a College of Cardinals, with or without a pope. At least they retire at 80.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:23, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Adding the words I think do not make that false allegation any more accurate. Wehwalt, I do not have time to track down every misstatement on this page, but I know that somewhere on this page you mentioned that in wartime, people would be shot for <whatever>. Please lower the hyperbole here; this is not wartime, it is a website, and that was a most unnecessary and inflammatory statement ... hopefully we can keep our statements accurate and in perspective so as to advance the discourse. Never did Raul or anyone fail to consider Brianboulton; at one time, Brian himself said he couldn't do it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

For once, Sandy and I find ourselves in agreement. :-) Ed  14:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Uh huh. Well, Sandy, welcome back to your old hates and targets. We've kept your stool warm for you.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Once again, wehwalt, please lower the hyperbole and personalization ... there is a job that needs to be done here. Do you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem? Re: The ed17 and User:Brianboulton, perhaps Brian can update his status re interest and availability should an opening arise? I doubt that I am the only one who remembers that he once expressed that he wasn't available; perhaps that has changed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

He I believe has both stated his willingness to help at one time, and his unavailability at another. To my mind, he would be a credit to any process he sought to lead. And is.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:12, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Clarification. I thank Wehwalt for his kind words. Sandy, your recollection is substantially correct; I have never sought to be a delegate or to assume a leadership role. I'm not even an admin, nor will ever be. I can't be bothered to rake up the diffs, but I may inadvertently have muddied the waters by saying, on more than one occasion, that I thought Raul should have appointed "alternate" delegates for FAC and TFA, who could be asked to act in the short term when the substantive delegates were unavailable. This was at a time when Sandy was acting effectively on her own at FAC, and when the TFA system had almost broken down. I indicated that I would act as an alternate, but thankfully we have moved on from those times and the need has declined. I see my WP role as a content builder and as a reviewer. I will within reason help anybody out who asks, but I want no formal position or status. I certainly don't hold it personally against Raul that he didn't take up my suggestion (though I think he should have), and I have absolute confidence in the current delegates. I do think the featured article process needs active rather than symbolic overall leadership, and I hope that the current debate will establish this by some means, without too much of "let's tear each other apart first". Brianboulton (talk) 15:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the gentle comments and I apologize to you for any misstatement I made regarding you. That being said, my commitment to a process where some would have it that I should never even have an effective say in choosing the leadership (non-voting stock not included) despite the immense time I have spent on it is not inexhaustible. Being a peon is not savory to me.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• I do regard 17 months as "a few". And yes, the MilHist coordinators can override Support and Oppose votes in A class reviews - and I have done so. It is not a vote, and it is not some exercise in consensus. Our A class certification says that an article has been verified by the subject experts. If it's wrong, I'll still fail it no matter how many supports it has. But the visibility and authority of the MilHist coordinator falls fall short of that of the FAC delegates. We are only a small and fairly insignificant project; but the delegates bailiwick is Misplaced Pages-wide, their visibility goes right to the front page, and they have broad reserve powers to enforce this. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment I see this as an attempt to forewarn (and get on side) the incumbent delegates by a partisan who has made it clear he does not support any sort of effective role for the community (that is, one that the community can make stick) in the featured article areas, to set the rules by which his own proposal shall be considered, and, to make sure that his proposal gets the favorable position at the top of the queue without giving warning so that no one else gets in first. He, no administrator and no neutral, has event taken the liberty of editing and moving others' comments for violating the rules which he, a partisan, has set. One cannot be both a proposer and coordinate the RfC, and there has been no agreement on who should This is an attempt to get one's way by being first in line (by willful concealment of intent). Unfair way of doing business.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:38, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Far from the conspiracy theory you're looking for, it was a courtesy to warn each delegate, and as I explained to Bencher in a subsequent post you seem to have missed, I was concerned about the potential understaffing of TFA before writing the proposal. As it turned out, this wasn't at issue in the proposal, and I should have read the dialogue between Bencher and Ian Rose further up this page. As far as getting the current delegates "on side", the RFC doesn't need that, and I don't care what they think or how they vote: the RFC seeks consensus from the community, and the view of delegates is relevant only insofar as they are part of the community. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. There's no need to shout in the edit-summary; if this "comment" section blows out, I'm going to move it into the discussion thread below. Tony (talk) 08:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory? I simply state what's fair for one is fair for all. You gave privileged advance warning to a favored few. Now, had you simply posted your intent, with courtesy notices on the delegates' pages, I could have had no objections. As it stands, though, it smacks of gaming. As do threats of moving comments, which you lack any privilege to do by all the conventional rules. At least last time, the RfC coordinator assured us he was neutral. You are a proponent and should not move the comments of those who do not agree with you. And if they are removed by another, well, we know Tony sends emails.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:19, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

:Because of Tony's repeated removals of text where he does not want it to go, I have begun an AN/I thread to address the question of Tony's edit warring to maintain this area as he wants it, though he has no warrant to do so with reverts here and here and . The canvassing included this. Editors may feel free to join the discussion here.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:14, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Question: What is strong support or strong oppose? Does it confer some advantage—to the POV that it summarizes—in the determination of consensus or it is just ritual display? I've used it myself on occasion ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

"FA community"

Two editors above have queried the intended meaning of the term "the FA community" in the sixth item of the proposal: "That the FAC, FAR, and TFA coordinators in committee—after consulting with the FA community—determine any further changes and fill vacancies." I thought it was unnecessary to spell it out; perhaps I was wrong. The assumption, I suppose, is that the coordinators would advertise any consultative process on the talk pages of all three FA forums and seek the views of anyone who wanted to give their opinion (of course, any editor can advertise a discussion further afield if they wish, as I've done for this RFC). At the moment, community opinion is given no official role when changes in the numbers of delegates/coordinators, and the filling of vacancies, are under consideration. Item 6 guarantees that the community's voice must be heard.

What is surprising is the feeling among a few editors here that other arrangements for the administration of content forums are somehow insulation from the development of cliquey behaviour. Yet several quite differently run forums are marked by cliquey governance and poor or even chaotic standards. Fortunately, a significant majority of people here see that maintaining high quality and disciplined leadership at FA forums requires a certain distance from popularism, and that the latter is likely to be an inevitable feature of an electoral system. This is why I've framed this compromise. Item 6, embodies a cautious, moderate step, and yes, it is a central and indivisible feature of the proposal. Underpinning it is the reality that it's actually rather hard for the people who run FA forums to ignore community opinion on structural proposals for coordinators. Tony (talk) 15:05, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• I don't consider this acceptable. Changes, filling of vacancies, electing additional coordinators, etc. should be handled by community consensus, and not by a small clique. Stifle (talk) 13:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment on the process

As someone who hasn't weighed in on this process (I think it's pretty rushed and would have benefited by more discussion before being taken to the RFC stage).... some of the recent comments don't really help me want to participate. It's getting well into personalizing the dispute ... let's take it away from who did what to whom and stick with discussing what concrete changes will make things better. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:13, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Who did what to whom and the fallout and whys are very pertinent as to what should no longer be, a sole person being unaccountable to anyone, that's why the history is germane here.PumpkinSky talk 13:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry if it is distasteful, and I am still weak from my hospital stay and perhaps my judgment is not all it should be. But there are instances where Raul and his close allies used their positions against those they deemed their foes. Ignoring that fact only spreads a myth that all was sweetness and light under his regime. A smarter man than I spoke of what absolute power does to people. A widespread theme in the comments on the RfC was "well, there's no problems at FAC, so why make a change?" Yes. There. Were.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

BINGO. Raul ran FA land like his personal fiefdom and attempted to stomp out all dissent. If need be I can post all the evidence I have on it. PumpkinSky talk 14:33, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Feel free. Let's have things out in the open, then maybe we can have some proper discussion before someone starts another snap RfC on rushing us back to the same system or a close clone thereof.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

But Raul is gone, isn't he? And all of these proposals divest him of any (meaningful) title or responsibility should he return. To use the phrasing of the FAC process, are there actionable objections about the conduct of the current delegates? I'm an outsider to the political brouhaha, but some of the commentary in this RFC feels to me like an effort to seek vengeance against Raul by proxy, to demand that the people he opposed (whether rightly or wrongly, and I'm not interested in finding out which) are given a direct hand in the project that was once his. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Alternate RFC on governance of the FA forums

Tony1's proposal just above is close to what I'd propose myself, but I can not abide by item six. I simply feel that the FA processes should not be treated differently that other parts of the encyclopedia, that the community is perfectly capable of handling coordinator rotations. The FA coordinators should not be a self-governing group. The whole idea is anathema to our basic principles. I also have a minor quibble with item 2, and would change the last clause about "high level" advice. If Raul returns, he can chime in just like any other editor. Therefore I submit the following alternate.

This is the formal proposal:

1. Incorporate the RFC proposal about by Tony1 with two exceptions: The phrase "in which he might offer high-level advice in relation to the FA forums" is removed from item 2, and item 6 is changed to read "shall be handled by community consensus".

Support

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

• Support PumpkinSky talk 12:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. This is better than the first proposal, but I support either one. Everyking (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. — Scott • talk 17:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support basic concept notably the "no dictator for life" provision. May need some refinement, but that will happen. Montanabw 18:52, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support This would be fine by me too - I'm happy to trust popular democracy amongst FA thinkers. --99of9 (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support: This pretty closely matches what I said in response to the first poll on the page. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:21, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support - This addresses my issue with point 6. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:08, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Anyone with a position of responsibility should be chosen by the community. Stifle (talk) 13:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support This is my preferred option but I'll settle for the original proposal if this one doesn't get enough traction. The current status quo is the worst scenario.Acer (talk) 12:31, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
• Support reinforcing community consensus. Meh about worrying about giving Raul a gold pocket watch as he retires. Regardless of whether these proposals pass, any wikipedian can give another Wikipedian a "title". If the concern is that this title gives some sort of advisory "power", then just clarify that. Otherwise this just sounds rather puerile to me. - jc37 22:44, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Oppose

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

• Oppose both suggested amendments to the original RFC. This is too radical; my concern is to fix an issue without capsizing the boat. Forcing popular democracy would remove the discipline that has made FAC what it is, and the ability of delegates/coordinators to distance themselves from the whims of nominators and reviewers. I'd rather be conservative for the moment. It's safer. Tony (talk) 12:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposal does not address the powers of the coordinators nor does it provide for the case which we've just experienced of an incumbent who loses interest in the project. And have these RFC's been advertised? that was part of the problem last time. There was an objection to outsiders as I recall.Wehwalt (talk)|
• Oppose—proposal doesn't ensure the independence and impartiality needed of the leadership to make the tough decisions needed of the respective positions. Imzadi 1979 → 15:04, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose this is not politics, and never should be about politics. --Rschen7754 19:30, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:NOTCOMPULSORY Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, for the same reasons I gave in the section above. The FA processes do need a director, as this discussion has demonstrated. I also urge participants here to discuss before launching RFCs (and also to discuss before edit warring on FA pages that benefit from stability). We have launched effective and well-worded RFCs before; perhaps we can do it again. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. The role of coordinator or delegate or whatever inherently involves making decisions that will make people unhappy. Our consensus processes for that are terrible; we only accept RfA because we can't agree on a replacement, and ArbCom elections are not that much better behaved. The abstract principle of community consensus is not sufficient reason to introduce RfA-style dysfunction into a fairly well-running process. Choess (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose (sorry), pretty much per Choess. I think there is little to gain and alot to lose. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Question. Can someone give me a real no joke explanation of why FA land is so different (I've never heard one) from RFA and Arbcom? Based on this logic we should elect arbs for life and scrap the whole "wiki is a consensus collaborative environment" meme. PumpkinSky talk 22:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
    • FA works. RFA and ArbCom are totally broken. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Not good enough. Are you saying arbs should be elected for life? Admins appointed by Jimbo or what? And that the meme that wiki works on consensus model be dumped? PumpkinSky talk 09:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose – We already handle the addition of new delegates by community consensus. Every time I've seen a new delegate, they have been supported by other editors on FAC talk; a few have been ratified by the community, I believe. If people object to a certain editor, they have every opportunity to give their opinion; if enough had given a negative opinion last year, Raul wouldn't be the director now. Not to mention that we should avoid becoming more like RFA and ArbCom at all costs. I'd hate to see the top content process on Misplaced Pages become purely a popularity contest. Giants2008 (Talk) 19:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per my comment above. I acknowledge that this proposal was set up in response to the above proposal, but I still think it would be better to discuss more rather than !voting on a bunch of ad hoc proposals. Nil Einne (talk) 22:40, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per my opposition to the previous proposal. Эlcobbola _talk 15:39, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Agree with Rschen. This cannot be a popularity contest. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:34, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Hawkeye7. John Vandenberg 06:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The argument that "FAC shouldn't be political" is a red herring. Social pressure would keep even elected delegates from going off the reservation and favoring people. First, there aren't that many doubtful cases at FAC. Second, overt favoring would be picked apart by very bright people. Exactly what could delegates do to favor? Promote their friends on two supports and their opponents on four? These things would be noticed and their positions undermined. PumpkinSky talk 12:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Choess and Hawkeye. Ceoil (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Advice is non-compulsory, so removing that phrase isn't needed. I don't like weakening #6, because I fear this will turn into a spectacle like RfA. Here, where we're trying to achieve professional standards of prose, and frankly not all reviewers are up to that standard, it's good that FAC has three delegates who are up to it. They are competent to put new candidates of a similar standard before the community, and the community should have a veto on new candidates, but this way we can hope to avoid another RFA-like farce. If later the system decays, we should cross that bridge when we come to it. --Stfg (talk) 19:36, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Democracy isn't the solution to all problems. I believe that the community as a whole is capable of making good decisions and setting appropriate standards, but the community as a whole is not capable of judging individuals on the basis of technical skill sets. That's probably some of what's wrong with RFA. It's certainly what's wrong with ArbCom elections. In both cases, there's a lot of electioneering and politics but comparatively little to determine whether the candidates have the core skill set the position requires. Also in both cases, it's inside football; administration and arbitration are internal processes. FAC is externally-facing; more so than the other cases, it requires technical competence in order to keep our quality seal an actual seal of quality, and I have no faith that community elections can or would discern where that is or is not present. If the cost to ensure that is enshrining some form of apostolic succession, even with the realization that I will never be one of the chosen, then so be it. The project and its product are more important than my, or our, voice. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 14:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. I prefer the original proposal, see my support there. I doubt, a more "democratic" approach would improve anything, that couldn't be improved by simple civil discussion. Maybe the problems in the past weren't solely structure-based, but partially caused by faction-building and personal sensibilities on more than one side. Voting every few years would increase that problem instead of fixing it. GermanJoe (talk) 15:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikiprojects vote on coordinators all the time and they work just fine. I still don't see why FA-dom is so special. There's no valid reason FA-dom should have a director for life/indefinitely. To carry on Raul-ism in FA-dom the FA coordinator may as well hang a sign on his/her user page that says "my way is law and is the only way". PumpkinSky talk 22:33, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Neutral

Limit of one paragraph, maximum 50 words. No replies here; please use the discussion section below.

Discussion

Can we merge the two proposals to one before we start voting? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:37, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

If someone wants to do that and Tony does not object, it's okay with me. I didn't want to just start changing his work. I'll ping him.PumpkinSky talk 12:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

What if everyone started an "alternate RFC" because they objected to one or two elements of the existing RFC? The proper place for this is in the original discussion section. Tony (talk) 13:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Why should only the first person in the door get to make a proposal then?--Wehwalt (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I am eager to see your proposal on this, Wehwalt. PumpkinSky talk 13:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

My thought is that the community should select coordinators, but these people would not then be eligible for another term until a period of time out of office had passed. I was thinking along the lines of two-year terms and six months then out of office. I would also make it clear that the community sets policy, and that the delegates have discretion in how they judge consensus. If they think a vote is abusive, they can disregard it.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Notices at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#RFCs_on_FA_changes, Wikipedia_talk:Today's_featured_article/requests, Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_review#RFCs_on_FA_changes.PumpkinSky talk 13:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems silly to start two or more RfCs at once; it'll doom them all, IMHO. Ed  14:13, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Item six is simply not acceptable. That's as unwiki as it gets. We've already been putting up with the FA-fiefdom for 11 years. Enough already. Let's vote on each line item or all variations at once. This issue needs to be settled after so many years of stagnation. One RFC option at a time will take forever.PumpkinSky talk 14:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Ed. I worry that voter fatigue could become an issue if people have too many places to vote. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Pumpkin, the safeguard I've proposed is to build into governance the seeking of the community's view on filling vacancies and other managerial changes (even though it's ultimately up to the committee of coordinators, which is in effect how it's been for some time). Tony (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

No Tony, what you propose is for what is left of Raul's fiefdom to maintain its powerbase and the illusion that FA is special and exempt from wiki's standard policies. PumpkinSky talk 16:42, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I am not aware of any delegate who has been appointed by anyone other then Raul. Raul has said in the past that he consulted with delegates, but I seem to remember some delegates posting that they had not heard from Raul on the matter, so I don't know.Wehwalt (talk) 23:21, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment noting above, where I suggested, another solution would be a term of service for leadership, allowing the tiebreaker role of a "boss" but not the risk of entrenchment and rot, with the coordinators rotating "senior" status on an annual basis so no one person get too fond of their magic wand. Montanabw 20:05, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Where did the commitee get their power from? The community. I don't see how WP:FA reached the point where the commitee of coords was somehow above the rest of the community. ★★RetroLord★★ 16:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Because Raul founded the FA "project" back about 2004, always considered it his personal fiefdom where he could do whatever he wanted, was "director" (read "dictator") for life, most of the community always kowtowed to him, and the result is what you see.PumpkinSky talk 17:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not like its a bad thing. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Yea - I support some reform here no doubt. Now I admit that I'm saying this through gritted teeth - but someone should probably - just out of courtesy - email Raul too. It's only fair since it does affect him. Maybe Sandy could as I know they were familiar with each other on wiki. I would love to be pinged once this goes live and official in the "RfC" and WP:CENT sort of way. — Ched :  ?  14:03, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Well ... ping. ;-) Ed  14:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• @Imzadi 1979 by that logic arbs should be arbs for life, so where's the difference? There is none. PumpkinSky talk 17:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
• reply to PumpkinSky's question above in the "Oppose" section. I can give two reasons why this situation is different from RfA and ArbCom. The first is, essentially, the reason I gave in my opinion: the RfA and ArbCom election processes are fairly dysfunctional; the problems with FA seem much more limited in scope and generally manageable. I admit I'm rather bemused that, after expressing your great dissatisfaction with ArbCom failing to take your case against DocJames, among other things, you're eager to recapitulate the community consensus-building process that produced that ArbCom here at FA. Second, I disagree with your implied premise that unless we subject all delegates or directors to individual examination, they are appointed "for life" or don't have "community consensus". The RfC a year and a half ago didn't confirm life tenure for Raul; what it confirmed was that the community did not see the wisdom of removing him at that time, nor of establishing an election system. Now, we're holding another ad hoc RfC, and while we may disagree on the details of how to do it, I'd say there's a decent consensus developing that the FA process should be headed by people who are actually here and editing and that someone or something should replace him. In short, the 2012 RfC established a consensus (which seems to be holding up in this RfC) that FA staffing should be dealt with on an ad hoc basis, rather than by a regular system of elections or RfWhatevers. Such a consensus does not exist for RfA or ArbCom. Choess (talk) 02:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • @’’Choess’’ section. Thanks. That’s the best explanation for that viewpoint I’ve heard yet. While I understand much better, I still do not agree with all of it. I also think you misinterpret some of what said and some things I said are rhetorical. Yes, I think we all agree RFA and AC are dysfunctional. Every wikiproject I am familiar with either holds formal elections or an ‘’ad hoc’’ poll to choose new coordinators. The problem with Tony’s RFA wording on that, despite taking “community input”, whomever the current coordinators are still select their own replacements. As Wehwalt says, this makes it a self-perpetuating oligarchy and that is why fervently oppose that model. The ‘’ad hoc’’ system that some wiki projects use would be fine with me (not ones where a coordinator picks his/her replacement). Yes, it’s clear that my alt RFC will likely fail. That’s fine. I still have the right to propose it. Tony’s version is roughly at 50/50 now but many of the supports are partial. I agree that there's a decent consensus developing that the FA process should be headed by people who are actually here and editing. It’s the specifics of how the coordinators are chosen that are hanging these up. I feel the community can soon agree on a new FA coordinator process after taking comments from both RFC versions. PumpkinSky talk 15:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
    • The argument that "FAC shouldn't be political" is a red herring. Social pressure would keep even elected delegates from going off the reservation and favoring people. First, there aren't that many doubtful cases at FAC. Second, overt favoring would be picked apart by very bright people. Exactly what could delegates do to favor? Promote their friends on two supports and their opponents on four? These things would be noticed and their positions undermined. PumpkinSky talk 12:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
      • No, but you getting closer to understanding. The problem is that you're looking at it from a people perspective rather than an article perspective. The whole purpose of the delegate mechanism ("apostolic succession") is to preserve Raul's original vision of exactly what a featured article should look like. The delegates have been chosen precisely because they share that vision. So whether he's here or not, the spirit of Raul is to some extent present in every featured article. What you see as a self-perpetuating oligarchy, I see as a set of featured articles mirroring the same ideal. You change the process, you change the definition of what is a featured article. Any I for one don't want any part of what you are proposing. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:28, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
        • No, Raul has a lousy idea of what a FA should be. He has more former FAs than current FAs. Writers and reviewers much better know what a FA is than Raul. He had the original idea, but you give him way too much credit. Your post sounds like you're talking about Saint Raul, and he was far from that. Should wiki erect a shrine to Saint Raul? Changing the process does not change what an FA is; that's such an extreme extrapolation I won't even belabor the point. And I don't want any part of what you are proposing, so let's call it a draw. Thanks for responding. I do appreciate that. PumpkinSky talk 22:29, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Citations in FA review

I've noticed several FAs lately (most recently Good Girl Gone Bad: Reloaded) whose citations are a bit of a mess, but that hasn't been picked up in FA review. For example, that article frequently misuses the cite template parameters (e.g. publisher = ]. Hung Medien). In the first place, Danish Singles Chart is a 'work', and Hung Medien is the 'publisher', so it's wrong to lump the two together; and secondly, the publisher has no value at all to anyone checking references, so it would be best omitted entirely (and the documentation at Template:Citation#Publisher specifically recommends omitting it for periodicals (such as work=Billboard|publisher=Nielsen Business Media, which occurs multiple times). Other previous FAs have had similar - though not so extensive - problems with cites. It seems to me that this is an area of article quality that's not getting enough attention in FA review. Colonies Chris (talk) 19:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Jump in and review! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

How do I do that? Colonies Chris (talk) 09:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Just pick an article at WP:FAC, open its review page (the edit tab next to its title) in a new tab so you can edit as usual, and add any comments you have about referencing or grammatical issues after consulting the article. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Chris: While you're right that pop music articles often unnecessarily contain publisher details for periodicals, both work and publisher are often placed in the "publisher" parameter to get around the fact that the "work" field automatically italicises, which is frequently unwanted. J Milburn (talk) 11:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• I was involved in a discussion about this some time ago (on WT:Citing sources, I think, can't find a link), where the consensus was clearly that cited websites, for example, ought to be italicised, because they're a 'work' just as much as Billboard. Now, that came as surprise to me because it's not usual practice, but there was no dissent from that view, so perhaps we ought to be making it more widely known. In any case, it's wrong to misrepresent the facts to achieve some desired formatting. There are other less ugly ways. Colonies Chris (talk) 12:35, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Some quick responses: Firstly, I don't think a discussion on that talk page "some time ago" can have a monopoly on citation styles. The MOS disagrees with you, noting that while some website names should generally be italicised, others should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Certainly not the strong position you're forwarding. Secondly: There are plenty of featured articles (and legitimate citation styles used in highly respected publications) which do not italicise website names, and I sure as hell won't start italicising when it isn't warranted. Thirdly: There's no misrepresentation going on- a citation template does not exist to convey The Truth, it exists to help us format. If it's not helping us format when we use it as intended, we should use it as it was not intended or do away with it altogether. Fourthly: What, short of not using the template, is a "less ugly way"? If there is one, I'd like to know it. J Milburn (talk) 13:07, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

• Well actually the MoS says to italicise "Online magazines, newspapers, and news sites with original content ... Online encyclopedias and dictionaries ...". That covers practically everything that citations generally refer to. If the template doesn't do the type of formatting that people agree is required, then it should be amended to provide that facility. Gaming the template is entirely the wrong approach. I've seen cases where people have added wiki formatting to citation parameter values to get the appearance they want. I don't like it, but at least it's not messing with the facts by misrepresenting a 'work' as a 'publisher', for example. Colonies Chris (talk) 14:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

"If the template doesn't do the type of formatting that people agree is required, then it should be amended to provide that facility." You assume that either we're going to be italicising or not italicising every possible "work". That simply isn't the case. If I'm writing about a band and citing their own blog or website, I wouldn't italicise then. If I'm linking to a result in a database, I almost certainly wouldn't italicise the database's name. If I still want to use the template, I shouldn't have to go and change the template when it is perfectly fine for other cases. "Gaming the template is entirely the wrong approach." I have no idea why you believe this. The template is a tool. We're not "gaming" or "misrepresenting" or "messing with the facts", we're using the tool in a slightly different way than its creator assumed we would. As long as it displays as we want it to for readers, what does it matter if we're using the template in different ways? J Milburn (talk) 15:28, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm not making any such assumption, If people agree that there are two classes of website, those which the MoS feels are equivalent to newspapers, magazines, etc., and therefore to be italicised, and those which are of a different nature (a band's own website is a good example), then there should be two different parameters, which the template would format differently. Colonies Chris (talk) 15:43, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Good idea! We could call one "work" and one "publisher". I'll go and suggest that on the template's talk page right away. J Milburn (talk) 15:58, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Ha ha. So will you then be putting "Danish Singles Chart" as the 'work' and "Hung Medien" as the publisher? Or will you pretend that they're both the publisher? Or will you omit the publisher anyway as it's completely useless? Or will you mislead everyone by putting "Danish Singles Chart" as the publisher? We have a fundamental disagreement. I think it's important that the values we enter in the template parameters should bear some relation to their actual real world meaning. You don't care about that, you only care how the formatted output looks, We're never going to have a meeting of minds on that, so I'm not going to argue with you any longer. Colonies Chris (talk) 17:21, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Chris is right. The citation templates have definite semantics, which are made use of in various places. (For instance, I can pull the bibliography off of one of my articles into Zotero because of that, and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Academic Journals regularly harvests the list of journals we cite.) If the templates were solely for formatting, we'd call the parameters "italic" and "non-italic", not "work" and "publisher". If you're solely concerned with the aesthetics of your citation, you should be formatting it with wikitext, not one of the citation templates. Choess (talk) 18:26, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Chris, I'm not "misleading" anyone when I place things in the "publisher" parameter which aren't defined by you as a "publisher". Suggesting that I am is, you guessed it, misleading. Repeatedly suggesting that I am is moronic. Anyone looking at the citation can clearly work out what is meant, and that's the important thing. We're meant to be here to write articles, and we have citations to support the article. We are not here to argue semantics for the amusement of citation formatting enthusiasts. Obviously, you live in a realm where what's important is what a template says, and not conveying information to readers; so yes, we have a fundamental disagreement here. I edit Misplaced Pages, an encyclopedia. I've no clue where you think you are. Please, if that's what's important to you, go and edit the template space, and stop trying to force your views onto article writers. (Choess, data scraped from cite journal is going to be fine, as that's a vaguely well formatted template. The italics aspect of the cite web template has been causing problems for years.) J Milburn (talk) 18:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

So, what you're saying is, in your "realm", "semantics is bunk". Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. J Milburn (talk) 14:14, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Curly is looking at "We're meant to be here to write articles, and we have citations to support the article. We are not here to argue semantics for the amusement of citation formatting enthusiasts." and appears to be taking that as an insult to the field of semantics rather than an expansion of the term "debate semantics" (meaning spend time arguing over the wording of something and not the actual meat of the issue) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Query for delegates

My Garden Warbler FAC currently has four supports and no opposes, but a fifth editor has been commenting for nearly three weeks now. I'm just concerned that this might have the effect of an (unintended) filibuster and lead to the FAC running out of time. I don't know how long he will take to finish, or even whether he will cast a vote either way in the end, since he doesn't always do so. Basically, I'd just like some assurance that this article will be given time to complete FAC, since the circumstances are unusual. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:59, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

There's no set time for a FAC to run, Jim. Myself, I prefer to let active reviewers complete their commentary whenever possible, although both Graham and I have promoted long-running noms when there are still some minor points outstanding but significant support is present. In this case, as the reviewers who have declared a position are in favour of promotion, I don't think there's much danger of the nom being archived out of hand. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Ian, the problem seems to have gone away since he has now supported. In due accordance with sod's law, he's supported the day I posted this (: Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:57, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Nomination viewer buggy?

71 open FAC noms – wow! I wonder what the record is? Anyway, I just noticed when I open the FAC page with the nomination viewer, it only shows the first 39 candidates (the last shown is Wordless Novel; although all candidates are listed in the contents, I can't open the last ones). Anyone else having this issue? Sasata (talk) 02:07, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Same thing for me. – Juliancolton |  03:03, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

You can access the nominations after pressing "Expand All" for now. Usually there is some special wiki code or character, that can break the viewer (maybe in Worldless Novel or the next one after it). GermanJoe (talk) 08:06, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Removed one included template, should work again. General note: Please do not use templates on nomination pages. GermanJoe (talk) 10:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Big new open access source

Hey all, dropping a note here for FA writers and reviewers... the University of California system, one of the largest higher ed. systems in the U.S. if not the world, recently announced they're going to publish all peer-reviewed work by UC under open access policies. Books and journals will be available for reading in full at http://www.escholarship.org/. Steven Walling • talk 20:22, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Brilliant move! Thanks for the note. Binksternet (talk) 20:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

No comments

To User:Ucucha, User:GrahamColm, and User:Ian Rose, or anyone else who may be able to help: I nominated the Knights of Columbus article two weeks ago, but it hasn't generated any comments yet. I reached out to a couple of the wikiprojects that may be involved to drum up some attention, but nothing so far. If no one comments on it, does the nomination just wither on the vine? What happens next? --Briancua (talk) 21:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Well yes, generally if there's no comments after a few weeks it will be archived and the nominator will likely be given leave to renominate in less than the normal two-week waiting period following an unsuccessful FAC. In this case, if you've let some projects know, without result, the other thing is to leave neutrally worded notes on the talk pages of any editors who have reviewed the article before, e.g. at GAN, Peer Review, or an earlier FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:44, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I will try and take a look today. Ping me if I haven't turned up there within 24 hours. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Requested closure of both RFCs

I've requested closure of the two RFCs, suggesting that they be closed together since they are so closely related. --Stfg (talk) 08:28, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. It's high time the community move on. I am certain little, if anything, will come of dragging this on anymore. PumpkinSky talk 22:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

4000th FA

See Wikipedia_talk:Featured_articles#4000th_FA

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Four Award

See Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Four Award--TonyTheTiger (T/C/WP:FOUR/WP:CHICAGO/WP:WAWARD) 16:54, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

How commentators should respond to comments

This rule only refers to nominators: "Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, break up, or add graphics to comments from other editors; replies are added below the signature on the reviewer's commentary. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider."

How should commentators respond to each others comments? Under the same guidelines as the nominator? Or, solely in their own section (as in an ArbCom case)? Without any restrictions? Or what? Strangesad (talk) 02:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:FOUR RFC

There are two WP:RFCs at WP:FOUR. The first is to conflate issues so as to keep people from expressing meaningful opinions. The second, by me, is claimed to be less than neutral by proponents of the first. Please look at the second one, which I think is much better.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Slow bot?

Just checking up on the bot: S&M (song) was promoted a week ago and yet the bot hasn't botted on it yet, even though more recent promotions have gone through. Is this a problem because of the number of archives it has to deal with? Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:26, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Can't say for sure, mate -- messages have been left for the bot creators about a few FACs that haven't been closed recently. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:46, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, that's great - cheers Ian. - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 20 August 2013 (UTC)