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Turkey Unassessed

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Ancient Anatolia? Byzantine empire? Not relevant to Turkey...

Ancient Anatolia is not Turkey. Neither is the Byzantine Empire. Turkey is a continuation of the Ottoman Empire and therefore those two may stay. I propose deleting anything before that. Proudbolsahye (talk) 03:27, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Byzantines were the predecessor of the Ottomans and so was Ancient Anatolia of Byzantines. But are you trying to say that only massacres comitted by Turks may stay and everything except Armenian Genocide should be deleted?DragonTiger23 (talk) 18:50, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Also, I would like this to be added back to the article, since it occurred within the Ottoman Empire. The lead sentence needs to read, "The following is a list of massacres that have occurred in the Republic of Turkey and its predecessor, the Ottoman Empire.". --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:07, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

More nonsense. Dragon Tiger has now added a battle(Battle of Levounion) with a "source" from a Nigerian linguist, Dr. Chris Uchenna Agbedo, who has no qualifications as a historian. This article has become a coatrack for DragonTiger to label any conflict(anachronistically) as a massacre. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:53, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Removed Fall of Smyrna, since Phil Mundt is a retired geologist, not a historian and the Byzantine Empire is not "Turkey". --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:05, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

The article states: "The following is a list of massacres that have occurred in Turkey and its predecessors (numbers may be approximate, as estimates vary greatly)".

It is really funny, how you are now discrediting the source, it is always the same behavior when WP:JDLI. That source is used in the Ethnic Cleansing article to "prove" that Seljuk Turks ethnically cleansed Greeks. Are you now going to say the same things there and remove it, I don't think so. Besides you did not have to critisize the source, because more sources describe the massacre of Levounion. It is more detailed in its own article Battle of Levounion.

All these massacres happened in the area of modern Turkey, they are relevant why should it be removed? Lumping Ottoman massacres in the area of modern Turkey together with Modern Turkey is not necessary, than we should better create List of Massacres in the Ottoman Empire.DragonTiger23 (talk) 18:50, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Also I do not understand why you are insisting on adding a massacre in Bulgaria(different country) in the List of Massacres in Turkey article? And for some reason you are in this case not critical to the source at all.DragonTiger23 (talk) 18:52, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

1.As I have clearly shown, the two massacres(anachronistic) do not have reliable sources. Your pushing to include any and all "massacres" appear to be linked to Byzantines(ie.Greeks)(anachronistically), whereas you are quick to remove a well sourced massacre by the Ottoman Empire!??

2.If you can not seem to comprehend why the April Uprising should be listed for the Ottoman Empire, take your own advice(ie. Battle of Levounion) check the article which has 27 inline citations and the opening sentence, "The April Uprising was an insurrection organised by the Bulgarians in the Ottoman Empire from April to May 1876, which indirectly resulted in the re-establishment of Bulgaria in 1878." It would appear that 27 inline citations is not enough for your opinion. "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?".....

3.You again try to label another editor as biased, with your statement, "Besides you did not have to critisize the source, because more sources describe the massacre of Levounion. It is more detailed in its own article Battle of Levounion.". Yet your "source" is by a Nigerian linguist? I did check the Battle of Levounion, which has 2 inline sources, neither of which references a massacre. So again your statement is refuted.

4.If you believe a "List of massacres in the Ottoman Empire" then clearly "Ancient Anatolia" and "Byzantine Empire" should not be listed here! Odd how you are quick to remove what you don't like, but add anachronistic information!

5.And just what the hell does this mean? "It is really funny, how you are now discrediting the source, it is always the same behavior when WP:JDLI. That source is used in the Ethnic Cleansing article to "prove" that Seljuk Turks ethnically cleansed Greeks." For one thing, you just added that source today! Are you insinuating I'm a sock? Am I editing Ethnic cleansing on a daily/weekly basis? From what I can tell I have never edited Ethnic cleansing. It would appear either you are unjustly attacking another editor(not commenting on content) or you are accusing me of sockpuppetry. Continue to do so at your own risk. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:30, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Now you know about Ethnic Cleansing, are you going to remove the source in the ethnic cleansing article too?DragonTiger23 (talk) 19:34, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Due to your accusation that I have already edited there, no. I have no interest in that article. You can't make your own argument? Besides, for all the historians that have written about that time period, if such "ethnic cleansing" would have occurred surely a modern historian would have written about it! Correct? --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I did not accuse you of editing there, I wrote that the source you criticise is used in the Ethnic Cleansing article to prove(!) an ethnic cleansing(!), now if you were an honest person, you would remove it from there by using the same arguments, but you are not interested(?), is this a case of WP:LIKE(?). DragonTiger23 (talk) 20:38, 8 June 2013 (UTC) You could google search it instead of denying it instantly, here a source for Levounioun,DragonTiger23 (talk) 19:40, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow more accusations. Now I'm not an honest person? You insinuate I am editing at Ethnic cleansing now I'm not honest. You need to stop with the personal attacks. "It is really funny, how you are now discrediting the source, it is always the same behavior when WP:JDLI. That source is used in the Ethnic Cleansing article to "prove" that Seljuk Turks ethnically cleansed Greeks.". Final warning. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:55, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

If a reliable source can be found, then it belongs under "List of massacres in the Byzantine Empire", not "Turkey" as you have so clearly pointed out(see below). --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I never said that you edited ethnic cleansing. I informed you that the book of the Nigerian linguist (which you criticised as unreliable) is used by others on the Ethnic Cleansing article to prove an ethnic cleansing. So if the source is unreliable than it also should be removed from there. I do not personally attack you I am just amazed.DragonTiger23 (talk) 07:44, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm amazed you continue to add massacres to the article without sources. I am equally amazed by your hypocrisy, since you were fine using that source here, yet you were adamant against someone else using the same source(at Ethnic cleansing) for their information. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:09, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I am amazed again, those massacres have their own wiki articles with sources so instead of calling them unreliable you could read them. The Nigerian linguist source was first used on the Ethnic Cleansing article, nobody called it unreliable then, but when I used the same source to add info about a massacre here, you anounced it was unreliable.DragonTiger23 (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Yet again, you completely ignore the fact that I have never edited on the Ethnic Cleansing article. I gave information showing that a Nigerian linguist has no qualifications as a historian for that time period. Where was your information showing otherwise?? Undoubtedly you were to "amazed" to do the proper work.

Instead of "being amazed" you should take the time to check your sources. Try focusing on content not the editor(s). Your continued rhetoric just proves how desperate you are to "run off" other editors. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:47, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Please no WP:JDLIDragonTiger23 (talk) 09:02, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

April Uprising is in Bulgaria, all the other massacres of the Ottoman Empire are in their relevant countries articles, check the article, list of massacres in Greece, in Ottoman syria and so on.DragonTiger23 (talk) 19:40, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Then this article needs to be renamed, "List of massacres in the Republic of Turkey". --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe that is better, what do other users think?DragonTiger23 (talk) 20:38, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I would like to keep the name of the article as is since the general consensus in Misplaced Pages is that the Republic of Turkey is a successive state of the Ottoman Empire (see Turkey article). Therefore, massacres of both the Ottoman Empire and Republic of Turkey may be included into one article. I would also like to mention that the massacres done during the Greco-Turkish war should not be placed separately since the motivations and context of these massacres are all the same. For example, the Salihli and Usak massacres are under the same context, background and intent. Above all, these are villages that are very near each other. What's the point of expanding it as such? It is like placing the massacres that happened in Bingol and Mush separately even when it is under the broader context of the Armenian Genocide. I propose combining all those massacres under the Greco-Turkish war and list them under civilian casualties or mutual massacres of that sort. Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:48, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Most important the Salihli and the Usak massacres are not even sourced as massacres and they should go. If a part of the town's buildings faced destruction during warfare (that's what is sourced here) this isn't defined as massacre. Thus, wp:rs is needed.Alexikoua (talk) 07:21, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree per Proudbolsahye, all similar events should be combined in presented under a general event (Armenian Genocide, Massacres during Greek-Turkish War, Gree Geonice etc.). Details can be found in these article, without making it hard for the reader.Alexikoua (talk) 07:23, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I strongly oppose such a decision, remember this is a list and it has the space to list every event seperate. I find this yet another attempt to deny, censor or minimise the sufferings of Turkish/Muslim people of the Ottoman Empire/Turkish republic. This is a list of massacres not total war casualties, so instead of collective numbers of the Armenian/Greek genocide we should list the seperate massacres in these events.

Besides the Republic of Turkey can be the successor of the Ottomans yet they are still very different, there are some authors who argue that the Ottomans were a successor state to the Byzantine Empire. So it was wrong to censor Byzantine massacres and remove it from here. While no one here has ever denied the sufferings of Christians/Greeks or Armenians I found it very sad that people who accuse Turks of that behavior show it themselves. Besides the listed events are not that long either. If you insist on censoring Turkish suffering I will take it to admin level.DragonTiger23 (talk) 08:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The suggestion is a quite reasonable one, especially if the article is flooded with poorly sourced or even completely unsourced cases. Unfortunately personal attacking is the only argument provided against this proposal. Something that should be avoided. Also this is the epitomy of dirsuption: ] and clearly proves that the user rejects any kind of discussion (the civilized sequence would be first to provide a decent citation which proves it was a massacre per comments kindly added in the dubious tag and then remove it).Alexikoua (talk) 09:38, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

All events that I added are sourced, why are you still adding dubious, remember WP:JDLI but nobody has ever criticised what you added. See ].DragonTiger23 (talk) 09:50, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

You need to read wp:citation, simply a snippet link doesn't prove we have wp:rs.Alexikoua (talk) 09:54, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

How strange, you used a snippet source here to prove ethnic cleansing. The burning of Turkish cities by retreating Greek troops is documented in numerous Western/Greek and Turkish sources, they were deliberate and accompanied by massacres and rape, the number of 200 killed is given by that source. There is no question that the city was burned and local population killed but still you are adding dubious and full citations to sourced content. So please avoid WP:JDLI.DragonTiger23 (talk) 09:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

(ignore trolling) This ] is properly cited per wp:citation, while this ] doesn't give the slightest information about the source (not even author). Once more, you need to read carefully wp:citation, but considering you just found a snippet and nothing more I suppose it's impossible to find something more, and unfortunately it has be removed sooner or latter.Alexikoua (talk) 10:27, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

By the way, if we take into account several academic sources, for example this one ], it appears that the 1919-1922 section should include at least 32 more cases. Another argument to remove all these events and present them under a general category.Alexikoua (talk) 10:39, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

There is no harm in adding more sourced reliable information about massacres to the list, censorship because of WP:JDLI is wrong.DragonTiger23 (talk) 11:31, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Approximately 90 percent of the Armenians of Erzurum province were killed

This is not demographically possible according to the Ottoman population census. Those show the total Armenian population of Erzurum city and the province to have grown till 1914. They give 108k Armenian in 1893 and 135k in 1914. If there were 60k killed than that would mean that the Armenian population of the entire Erzurum Vilayet(Province) in 1894 was 168k and the loss would be 36% for the entire Vilayet. According to Ottoman sources the district (Kaza) of Erzurum city had 11k Armenians in 1882. There still was an Armenian population in 1915 which was deported. Can someone check the source critically.DragonTiger23 (talk) 19:28, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

However the Ottoman census gives the Armenian population in Erzurum province as 116k in 1906, if these were the surviving 10% than the pre-massacre Armenian population of Erzurum should be 1,16 million and the death toll 1 million.DragonTiger23 (talk) 19:32, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Ottoman census is unreliable. The Ottoman government is notorious for skewing numbers. We need third party sources on the population. Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:51, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Your argument makes no sense, have you even read what I wrote? If the Ottoman census is wrong then there should be 1 million Armenians killed in Erzerum province alone in 1895. So instead of repeating your dogma ("Ottomans not reliable") please do a little bit thinking and research. Do not instantly accept the wildest numbers only because you wp:like it. We have to be neutral.

Furthermore Ottoman census are reliable, all other western sources and estimates are based upon them. The Ottomans were the only ones to have the means to count their own population. However there is some minor under counting of children and women. But generally they are reliable.DragonTiger23 (talk) 08:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

You have only showed the Ottoman census. You haven't confirmed it with third party survey records. That is why the Ottoman census alone is not reliable. Especially when there are plenty of third party sources that have deemed the Ottoman census records as unreliable. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:57, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Vital Cuinet, French geographer, gives 134,967 Armenians for Erzurum Vilayet in 1896. Source: "La Turquie d'Asie; géographie administrative, statistique" If this was the surviving 10% Armenian population then the casualties of 1894 would be 135k x 10 - 135k = 1,215 million killed. DragonTiger23 (talk) 11:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Massacre of March 16 ?

The source seems to be quite tenuous. The accusation made by Kamil Tekin Sürek, a murder witness and lawyer, does not appear to have any real evidence. I see no mention of the Grey Wolves in the source either. Is there any other source for this? As it stands right now, that entry and the corresponding source are not enough under reliable sourcing guidelines. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:52, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Unexplained manipulation of sourced content

It appears that a number of recent edit are pushing a specific pro-Turkish pov, although not a single additional source is presented so far, to justify some of the manipulation of sourced date. To sum up:

• ] Aydin: perpetrators and victims from Turks&Greeks became simply mixed.
• Smyrna Catastrophe: The responsible part from Turks became unknown (?), although this isn't about by the fire, but the massacre itself. Also the word "Turkish forces" became "outraged mob" without nationality.
• Istanbul riots: the perpetrator from Turkish government became Turkish nationalist ] and then simply Nationalists"] (without mentioning their nationality).
• ] The Massacres in the vilayet of Mamuretülaziz was removed, although per previous discussion in this talkpage, there was no consensus to summarize massacres in wider articles (i.e. in genocide if they can included).
• In Ayvalik the number was dropped from 2,977 to hundreds ], although by doing the math ] the number is still 2,977 (by checking the source the "hundreds" claim is about the inhabitants of Cunda not Ayvalik).

In case no real arguments are presented with reliable data to support the above adjustments, it can be easy concluded that this is nothing more than manipulation of sourced content and the previous version (on the above mentioned occasions) should be restored.Alexikoua (talk) 17:23, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Recent weird additions

The Greco-Turkish War section was subject to a massive wave of additions, most of them were poorly sourced (either poor citationss without author, url or using pov sources such as the Ataturk foundation) or the specific sources were cherry picked.Alexikoua (talk) 20:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

During the war (1919-1922) nearly 1.2 million Muslims in western Anatolia had died

It appears that this piece of info can't be confirmed by any detailed report. In fact the total number of Muslims in the wider Aidin_Vilayet (i.e. the wider region of western Anatolia) were 1,119,000, according to the pro-Turkish Ottoman statistics. This means slighlty more victims than the total number...

On the contrary the specific information is rejected by several schoolar, who point out that the Turkish (Muslim according to Ottoman millet system) victims during the Greek-Turkish War were possibly "more the 15,000" ]].Alexikoua (talk) 13:43, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Removed. Athenean (talk) 17:57, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

What's most important on this, it's that even if the claimed number wouldn't exceed the total population, this isn't confirmed by any genocide scholar or scholar in general. The diferrence with the 15k claim, which is well exmplained in the above link is astronomical indeed.Alexikoua (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Aidin_Vilayet =/= All of Western Anatolia. Learn geography. Cavann (talk) 19:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

For sure Aidin Vilaiet incorporates also region of interior Anatolia. This makes the specific claim even more fictious.Alexikoua (talk) 19:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Anything west of Adana would be Western Anatolia, especially if it is a bi-sectional division (east and west). This is why it is not up to you to question reliable sources. Cavann (talk) 19:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I've placed both theories, but the claim about the 1,3 mil. victims just in 3 years, needs some serious backing. On which data is the author based in order to claim that a genocide happenned against the speicifc ethnic group? So far it seems that the number was picked at random, without even adding a secondary source. In general a genocide needs serious bibliography to be supported, not just random numbers of a single work (at least a research, publisher, institute).Alexikoua (talk) 20:07, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

You can go to Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for input, if you think this source is not reliable. Until then, it is a source published by Cambridge University Press and it is not up to you to question it. You may add other opposing sources, however. FYI, Chatty is a Professor of Anthropology and Forced Migration in Oxford University . Cavann (talk) 20:24, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Seems you can't get it. The questions are quite simply: From where is Chatty basing a 1,3 million dead genocide? (When someone mentions a number at random, whithout the slightest detail, this does not confirm a genocide) Plz provide

• at least relevant link of the research it was done (if it happenned in that scale there will be for sure tons of books claiming that ca. 1+ million Muslim Turks died in 1919-1822)
• the participating institute(s),
• and the authors, from which Chatty is based. In general such genocides based on a single number and nothing more, are something that need to go from wiki, per Misplaced Pages:EXCEPTIONALAlexikoua (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Can you not read bibliography? p. 87:

"These figures are derived from McCarthy (1983).

By 1920, Muslims comprised only 14 per cent of the population (also see Karpat 1985:50—51; Rothschild 1974:327)."

Cavann (talk) 20:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

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